Businessman Podcast Ep #19 - פרק יט | The Real Reason Most Marketing Falls Flat

So my handle, David Bickel. And the other group, yeah? Yeah. And it's kind of a big marketing. So, you have to make an introduction cuz marketing is a subject for us because I passionate about and at the same time very frustrated about. So, let's So, and in a simple way so in a in a simple way marketing is a was marketing is a was every business that open. Probably with no exceptions to do F-share. F-share a few exceptions from businesses was then and also established and is a control a certain industry was on certain trademarks or the something was a definite marketing but I would say 99% of businesses definitely open marketing and and branding. And the purpose of marketing is see bring a sales to increase in sales or sales and marketing I began to someone a company that sees was a high moon see was a bonus a company that marketing to communicate in their message in companies holding and I seeking marketing. Now, over the years also marketing has developed and also toast. And salt and iron yet you twice do different channels, different opportunities but to the holds under the general category of in marketing. Now, you personally been the vein involved over the years in a lot of marketing seeing a stick that was happening in the vein officially a part of a big marketing branding company and over time I would like to deal with companies startups and companies was on the struggled was you can by default the vein desire marketing consultant let's say. Psychological launch night companies inside existing companies was on the committed. Now, was you have was me had I think about it is that you could kick off marketing as also very big category meaning a company that communicate in their message there's so many different ways of how to do that yeah. The Muslim and I have an example a podcast yeah. Podcast of the week from from communication yeah. How much can how much can sponsor event as a way of of marketing and how much can ship and give to some of the clients as a way of marketing. A billboard is a is a way of marketing and I add is a way of marketing yeah. So I am still with that fighting as you have promoting the this promoting me they like it on a coupon for the other customers for me like for this is marketing. So marketing is a very very general category but the master branding has marketing so there's so many different ways and I find as rough companies team marketing mission with company plan meaning mention of your desperate to feel that often sales is a life to the Easter marketing company advertising agency is a trying to make a piece. Most of the time I find homes and it's kind of realistic realistic expectations that I track them as again just running a campaign is that came out to food sales. Sometimes make a sale as an as a kind of sale okay so the market as a kind of sale which is one of the second was a company can team as a part of a overall marketing picture. And but after a few months they realize okay so hope generated a little cash flow so I can place the order for the next season but I'm still not making money and I still need to do something about marketing. So there's a lot of frustration and you have to help them the way they get team better in the how most companies do it. And you have to help them as the biggest team is of around like in a company kicking off the overall picture which I try to do as a consultant but I am not a marketing consultant but I am a overall consultant marketing is a specific field that requires a lot of a lot of um extra focus and effort so when you have to do the estimation I don't remember how you reached out to me for something I don't remember what but it's irrelevant and somehow by talking to you I was saying as I like the way we trust and so that is similar to the way you have to hold on to the first thing. So I started working with you to give them certain clients so I got to know the way you work and I think it is something that really makes sense to me and it I believe as this is very thick for mention the listeners of the show see first time because at some point you have to have a owner to have a manager at some point it's going to come up I am a tough team marketing and I I feel as to give for mention a basic understanding of what is it is going to be very helpful so I appreciate you taking the time to help out. Sure thank you for inviting me and when I bring in the conversation. Okay. The first of all basically is we see the fact is what is marketing with the advertisers what is branding with the like. >> Mhm. I mean the simplest way to explain it is as marketing encompasses a lot more than just advertising. So that's mention mine and has marketing mine advertising. That's it and you can hire in a company everything advertising and bring in sales and then you can have a company to make a cash flow and then what then the the problem with most times comes up very fast is as end of the campaign you're back to square one. And then you go back to the company you want to make more sales to make a campaign this is a Google and it never it never ends. The idea of doing marketing right is that you boost a brand. This is what branding really comes in. The idea of in branding is the point in branding is as the companies also have a line for the customers and team a lot of advertising. Advertising is I think necessary for a big team but when you boost a actual brand the brand will keep selling and then the brand will keep selling you get to spend less on marketing more on the customer experience more on researching what they want and delivering for them what they want. That brings number one repeat customers so instead of buying one time they buy multiple times and also referrals. That's the idea of what any company do the goal for what they want to build is a main business not not making money when you make advertising campaigns. That's not a it's not a scalable business. Correct and let me explain why let me a second in the details why. So to acquire a customer the Easter will is costly. Okay so let's say let me assume >> cost customer acquisition cost is costly so let me assume as a man had a business and a man quite sure he like was yeah let me assume an example a man quite water filters let me assume yeah. So you make a charge $1000 to install a water filter and you make you make $300 or the $400 let me assume you make $400 net profit of your the customer okay. So you just gain and spend money for the other new customers so let me assume I got make a campaign and let me assume as the campaign got cost $10,000. It's from the campaign that you can have customers the problem is as I said mention was going to see the campaign definitely you can water filters and you are ready to buy from the water filter. But you make $400 of a customer but you make $400 of a customer that you have to have 25 that you can have 25 customers from the campaign to kind of cover just expense from that campaign yeah. But you can have 50 customers let me assume what you made money you made $10,000 okay. But you have to always yet but all of us have to yet again make more advertising and I can say that for example I am saying that you have to see the marketing guide them yet not a more bringing the results or the niche because it sold $10,000 for a campaign let me assume I said no but you made 10 customers and it cost $1000 per customer and you made $400 but you lost $6000 and this is a game was made of spinning in a casino you can probably say that get in the game or something else complicated. >> And it keeps going on and on and on and on and on Yes it's a cash meaning it's going to be a campaign was made the Easter was a pink yet going a bunch of men who was on the way and so that advertise but the second one when they advertise becomes the winner. So when a man fought in the second cost is going to be >> take your original customer acquisition cost and you can assist the time and twice. >> Correct. And the idea is you have to move that when you take the customer acquisition cost so I think that for one man it should be you should look at it as five or 10 people always. So then let me assume that you made a campaign for $10,000 and that was 25 customers and that's not covered the expenses with the 25 customers going to send chicken the next 25 customers because I'm at the statistically speaking yeah you should have a lot of people that you can send a second but I know what you have to say a leap and I have to say that you recommend you can send three customers four customers okay. So with the men going to send water both to make your business okay. So this is I guess branding but branding include include more what what include as branding? Branding is the whole you have to touch point from the company was a hot meter consumer is not allowed in branding. So they got number one the visuals this is the way to go. The customer experience. The operation side of it if you get transferred over from one department to another department, you do touch point with that company helping that customer is not in the branding for the company. Okay. And when the a company that looks into the entire picture, the picture, they're going to look at point and kicking we can make it better. How to make it more efficient to drive that the customer acquisition costs by way of people referring more customers. Okay. So you the company technically branding inside marketing. It's one or the other. And the branding Basically a company I be coping branding. Branding They have a brand whether they like it or not. They have a brand anyway. This is also get the point. You the company was happening by default a huge better had the brand because of the gas. What do you think about a company? >> That's the brand. So branding the brand experience as the guys and the sets of the steps Correct. advertising campaign machine step number one before you do advertising campaign has to be missed Whatever the money in advertising campaign it didn't bring you the results that you could have gotten if you would have done this first. Correct. The challenge with branding is marketing get feelings I has cash flow cash flow. What do you think? I was just going long-term can business for the for the long term. It's very hard to scale. We can't scale successful business if you only do advertising. It's it's almost impossible. Correct. companies yeah Yeah. So I mentioned after the company marketing company advertising marketing company You have only city advertising agencies. Okay. So I got to see advertising agency agency make my campaign or the make my logo. Make my logo, yeah. Okay. So this is advertising or the graphic design. Basically. So a logo by default advertising logo. Okay. So definitely my logo. So they look at it backwards. Most people start and they kick it out backwards. If you advertising in order to advertising my logo. Okay. You should understand the idea of a logo and a tagline and the something we said going to company from a branding side not from the advertising side. The advertising side but that's not the and that's not the goal in building a brand. It's just for advertising. Okay. I mentioned business of a time that his logo and his visuals is out the boat in order to promote the brand and to be used in advertising also obviously I'll be the point is for the brand. And you promoting the brand and the visuals on connecting to the brand in be noticeable feels from the how advertising works and how the visuals work of it the the core point for our brand is that you should be able to scale it with these visuals. A brand is is basically the foundation for the business. When I mention in a business the for open a give us some help would you guys think and would you guys tell in the market different from the in of them the brand. Yeah, this this is for the for business. For the for business you have to find a need for mention of them. Figure out the need in the I would have to get the brand the visuals from the brand. Correct. Yeah, the for the brand is and how you do it. And what the experience is when the this product or the service with the guest. Okay. No thing both of the visuals. Correct. And it's not as simple we mentioned that then. Okay, example for my the company. Okay. So in the Penguin Group, yeah, as you know in summer a team was helped companies was scale meaning set my processes A B C D set my software system and they track down the processes. We should ask the hiring. Okay. We can automate so it's a bunch of them. You have to do we should make this present to the public. Can you a software set up and set my own software. But that's not really true. Cuz I can software company. Okay. It's can you sing? Yeah. I operations consulting company. It's helping me to figure out my operations. It's very vague. And I mentioned what do you mean? Can you sing as in helping me to make money which is ultimately the truth. But it sounds very scammy. Yeah. It doesn't sound proper. So and some of the struggled with them cuz I mentioned can I make as consultant. What do you mean by consultant? A consultant might have a problem. And I had to the consultant or my company with you too. Or the my company I should find. But at this point is this a company was did me we stand consulting. Yeah, consulting is a simple a general thing. I have a question. I have a answer. A company was set of companies was scale and it's my hand with companies multi-state should for of you is a waxing waxing and it's off. The the challenge is as when the when the when the master brand would you make a lot and as a damn brand help them for the need. So what do you say? So in my in my practice a business [snorts] man is not happy a good a a good system to track my processes. So you guys think I'm the man who set up perfect systems and processes. I can't connect with the man. And I can my company Okay. And this is ultimately the goal of the free zone. for referrals Okay. Right. So I mentioned I mentioned to free And I can't and And I mentioned feel following. Okay. Look at clarity. So the existing I can build a brand is clarity. Clarity in what? Clarity in the in the result of the waxing of business clarity to the max in the next So it's going to be your clarity. So my damn brand is clarity. So Yes, when it's my ad is the ad communicating clarity. I would like to be the set up amazing software. I see the software. I have the software. I have the software. I have the software. It's ultimately the software. But this is not what set up. Okay, so it's very interesting challenge because I can make it very strong in the customer for the service and give what will the customer What kind of message will it hidden that's going to make him advertising at the office branding Yeah. I mentioned can't connect to them. I don't have branding. What is a branding? Okay. I don't have guilt. >> [snorts] >> I don't have some business or marketing. How is it effective bottom line? Correct. So you did advertising What is the fact? Yeah, we help you increase sales. What is this not act? What is the fact? This is the result. >> It's a byproduct. It's a result. Correct. So this is the this is the challenge for branding. It's kicked or simple but it's not simple. I can mention all the all of my customers of different levels targets a beginner or the targets a new for such a 50 employees a focus another level. Okay, so back to three to branding and marketing and advertising. So advertising is a part Advertising is a part of marketing. We still in the second part. I mentioned is the second part is the first part. We have the old all of the other things set up. Yes. In the world of advertising as if we get What is advertising? Advertising the way we say is you create a perceived value. So you must create ads that gives over a perceived value Yes. The branding came to run that you want to give over you have to perceive value of this just good the look that you created the value of this just good to mark this mention on saying that's what the brand has to give over. When you do those two things, that's automatically going to drive referrals. That's going to drive repeat customers. A lot of times one of the biggest problems that I see is that people create a perceived value that's niche exactly what they are doing. And when that happens, maybe you'll get one customer, right? You'll get a few customers from your ads, but that's not going to help you long-term at all. And that's when you have to keep on repeating your advertising campaigns. So, whenever you're creating an ad campaign you have to see from them is that a mistake? What is the perceived value of this the guest and advertise that. Sometimes the prettiest ad and the most creative is not what you need. You don't need that. You need to create the perceived value to the audience was the was targeting. And make that a nice client audience. You don't have to target everybody. But the value of this they create that is exactly what they are communicating in all of their advertising. Now, somebody can tell us saying that sometimes a lot of companies try going very big, right? You will service them not to mention advertising services like in this 10 days 13 years over at the end of the game it doesn't help them. It doesn't help them because they never even set themselves up with killer when you service and to almost even to own you have a specific audience. I mean as as yet during season time is that you're obvious to saying they point. It's getting season time. Yeah, this is a 60 to 60 years so it's busy. It's coming out a bunch advertising books in all the Amish again to see promoting the Amish businesses with all my PC often. Okay. So, the next time you open the hand and you say is the book of 150 pages. And the hypest on submission page and page and page. Yes, there are two problems with you saying. One problem is as 500 pages is the Amish niche make love first time a mensch versus busy doing season time season a month is a flow. Don't you get in all of them 500 pages and those figures being clear what's available not 200 pages. Yeah, is it dizzy? I have a mess dizzy. Right. So, when I know advertise of page 260 the chances of this is all of us become of them doesn't is a very little. And in in in all of you the right now advertise that of all a field we thought that in the start list. And that's what not to do then so could them all of them I see this page 300 over could them been talking. It's number my issue number one. Issue number two is >> a lot of times they just scared from the competitors they get that out of Correct. So, more like that on all of you the like niche of all of them else bring that person out to say but number one. Number two with this yet result all of that like point is long as you can all of them for quite some time. Macho covers. Yeah, whatever says. Yeah, chic chic for you chic like yeah. When you have 20 companies with you the right now advertise that you have get the chic. Yeah. A mensch had the Amish a hard time to decide which you got what to do next. So, a mensch got all of what they had to say to the house. All of them on the Kindle and say I'm going to get all of this to parking with the access of our brand. Um So, it's a niche of all of them companies going around on the pressure. As I have to make them all of them like >> be different. >> As I have to make them all of them so they make them all of them make them all of them busy make them all of them good. So, they say get the way of saying all of them still niche in the underlying message of marketing. So, you can tell us you have to look for companies all niche advertise doing season time. Is that you can keep finding because I can look at doing season time guys is all busy anyway. You can see service and get all of them in a in a in a store with the forecast appliances. So, again as I met house as I can do the shopping the phones on the Kindle on stop. They they were boosting a bunch of menschen so I help all of them yeah. And you can do 50 minutes and you have to make them all of them help all of them and get them all of them to make them all of them good all of them good all of them good. All of them 50 minutes for the purpose of all of them finish with phone orders mensch can phone orders. Yeah. So, I'll take the pool all of them call he had to advertise all of them with the chic brochure with all of them products. What was the get right? When you ship 20,000 menschen a brochure and they got get the products and get the prices. Set the whole for system outside from the from the store with our warehouse with shipping with all of them was got shipped. Okay. So, I say the second thing is doing season time for 50 years 60 years guys is all busy regardless to the advertise niche. The this the problem is all of them niche live guys all of them good all of them all of them good all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of them all of this all of them all of them all of them all of them all of marketing and branding in a big picture and in advertising should be a small part of it. 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So, two issues. And then they get me $50,000. >> [laughter] >> Correct. Correct. for the youth with that company. I try to get the most data as I can from previous year year. And what are the results that we want to get to in year the platform? in branding. Doesn't have to be so much in advertising, even though it is an ad. the ROI, the return And when you have a clue to plan from photos, what the goals are, where we going? switch. Okay, so now let's make pivot. Let's switch a little bit, right? But that's to make a plan with killer. When they got spending out, you have to do the companies are spending $100,000 of of marketing and at the hostage day plan in the in the hash been from what the test. Then we'll see you're never going to you're never going to catch up to yourself. You're going to keep spending and spending and spending without knowing what's happening here and what's happening there. Correct. So, some of the of done the clients and the clients will spend a lot of money marketing you. And they often have so many they want to feel as if they are in the right way. Correct. So, it's not that I feel the way that I operate is that I sit in the company. This has even just a service provider from outside. I come in on the company and I work for the company. So, yeah, I need advertising agencies to do the creative work. I can't get designers to do something for me for clients or maybe whatever. But I can't get designers. Is this enough payroll? And I work for the company. So, my goal is the company's growth. It's not that they can spend and get me $50,000 and make me an advertising campaign. I come around and we decide the budget together of based on what the gross sales are over the last 12 months. And make a budget and then I go and we split that budget up based on what I think together with the company makes the most sense. And then we bring in the I bring in the partners but manage the whole entire thing. The size from the Google Ads campaign to the print ads campaign to the meta campaign to to to the whole even the customer experience. Now, a lot of times I think so it's not worth it to spend a lot of money in advertising. Rather put money in the customer experience, right? Hire more sales people to sit on the phone. Better sales people. It's it's interesting to see that the companies were wasting a lot of advertising but the customer experience can be so bad. The sales reps don't know much about the product and then when they ask questions they don't know the answers. So, they're not smooth and they might as well lose sales. They lose sales and they have to do more advertising. They keep spending more money. But if they would only sit down and realize that sometimes if your customer experience would be if you would spend another $100,000 just on the customer experience, then your conversion rate to see how much leads that come in and you convert would go up by I can say that it's a higher percentage. So, it's good to team with advertising always versus looking at the whole company and see the places where we can do better and put the money there. Correct. What percentage should a company spend on branding and and marketing as an overall number? So, my the way I work is I usually say that it's between 4 and 6% of gross revenue. If you're opening a new product or offering a new service or you want to do a bit higher faster growth, it can go all the way up to 10%. But to stay a healthy company and to continue growing, I'm generally 4 to 6% of gross revenue. Which means a company that does $10 million is spending half a million dollars a year on marketing and branding. But marketing doesn't only include now advertising and this is where people should realize. So, what you spend on your CRM system, okay, is can also be part of marketing. Training the team is all part Every all of that is part of marketing cost. It's not only advertising. Now, enhancing the website is also a big part of marketing. People don't realize that the Let me advertise. Well, what does your website look like? What's your lead conversion on your website look like? What do people do when they come on to the website? All of these points are all points that go into the marketing budget and should be looked at like we spoke in the beginning. Every touch point with a customer has to meet the company should be looked at from a marketing side. Now, a very interesting thing that I I I see I'm going to use a different example that obviously I never saw but this is the example with Minister Sackler is sometimes companies use an advertising agency and they also have someone on the finance team with his dot and he's reviews the finances and he's very into cost cutting, right? One of the big things company I want to cost cut, yeah? So, the example that that gets used a lot is everyone hotel hotel very luxury hotel and they have a doorman, right? And they have in the team an empty gear. How is it the finance manager came to run and he looked the doorman cost a $50,000 a year but he got a team. Can I go get a software for $50,000? It it it infrared sensors can sense exactly the minute when the manager left. It's going to be open the split second it's going to close. The first year you have to cost $50,000. Okay, that's paid by the the butler who's having the team. So, how is the air the air conditioning is on the team is on off and on and off and the air conditioning is on fighting the cost of electricity. So, they come and they tell you over 10 years I'm going to save you >> [laughter] >> Yeah, $450,000, right? Now, a lot of times the value creation for that butler, okay, with his title and having the team, the smile that you get, the recognition that he gives, that value creation is a lot more than $450,000. So, sometimes when you have when you only have someone from finance sitting on your team and he's busy with cost cutting and all these things but no one's looking at it from the customer experience side, you could lose a lot. You really can because it's not always about cost cutting and it's not always about being creative when it comes to finances. You also have to have someone from the marketing side to really say this does make sense and this doesn't make sense. And what we do is we we a lot of times sit with the whole the whole team together and we really go through each thing to see what would make sense and what doesn't make sense. You have the same issue now with groceries and banks where people used to really enjoy the relationship with the cashier and the person at the bank, the teller. There a lot of people had a very good relationship. Now they're trying to push down on costs and they're telling you no no no, if you want to if you want to talk to a person you're getting punished because there's only one person and you're all waiting in the line for half an hour. You want to be smart, talk to the machine. It is efficient but it you're taking away a big part of the brand experience. There was a study on on USPS, right? Our our mail system that they looked at different areas. They segmented it into the other areas and they looked they saw that the study that they did was they wanted to figure out if it was in an area is it more successful the USPS and in some areas not. They went into deeper they saw that not only is one area more successful and one area not. It makes no sense. Well, the area where mail was arrived on time and where exactly when they needed it was sometimes less successful than the area where we see it came in late. Now, it makes no sense. Then they went even further they found out that the places where people connected to the delivery person to the mailman, those were the areas that were more successful. This says that people didn't gauge their happiness of the USPS system based on if it came on time, more on the relationship with the person. Now, that just comes to show a person in a company should take into account how much of a perception and how much value gets created by the interactions with the company. Because people judge a brand of how you make them feel. Right. So, if you make them feel great, they will look for excuses. It's a it's a good point because I find that a lot of people will buy. Someone just told me a joke about a payroll company that they fell in love so much with it that they opened the company just so they can hire the payroll company to pay the employees. It's a joke but the the point is that and I think this is true that we make choices subconsciously where to go and where to shop. Part of the way we make a decision is how are we going to feel when we get there and we will drive an extra 5 miles or sometimes even convince ourselves that we need a coffee because we like the person that's sitting there smiling and we need some recognition and some and some good feelings right now. So, we will go to that place. Yeah, for sure. For sure. I'm saying even the the whole system way it works is is doesn't really make sense from a psychological point, right? If you can interact with a website or an ordering system 90% of the time and it's very efficient and it works. There's two times a year where you have to call the customer service, right? So, 90% of your interactions are efficient cuz the website runs and everything runs, the softwares. When it comes to human interaction, that's only 10% of the time. A person is going to base his perception of the company on the 10% when they have interactions versus the 90%. And if the 10% is bad, with the team, such luck the company, the customer service. I not see percent from the moon is a sufficient. No, but in the brain, psychologically, when we don't work like this. So, it's it's a more than again important highlight for a company to see really focusing of the way that they deliver their service or their product. That's why I think service businesses is an easy business for people to get into and compete, even though there's there could be 100 businesses doing the same thing. >> the service, that's it. And like you just said, the one time where you mess up, people get so frustrated that they are willing to switch, so the new guy has a chance. Because it's it's very hard to keep delivering consistent service. That's why a brand needs to put in a lot of work. Can I handle it and what do I do when when things get very busy? That's also something that a lot of companies don't take in consideration. If you have season time, you need to prepare and find a way of servicing your customers in in in at least in a decent way. If you're messing up doing season time, even though all the year round you could be good, people are going to be left with a bad Okay. So, going back to the the the average person listening that's running a business would love to to do more in branding and marketing because they want to grow the business. So, what you're saying with these looks is as the main stuff for Stein that there's a big picture and they have focus on the big picture. And they have invested the outside. Is it technically correct to say a bigger company or a smaller company? A bigger company has a bigger budget, a smaller company has a smaller budget, but the the goals are always the same. The the business must wax and the and a part of waxing the business is marketing, investing in marketing and branding. Then the clients and the bigger companies, smaller companies, are they both? Mhm, both. For the most part, yes, they send us I towards the bigger side. Okay. Bigger companies have more power was was a mega to spend or the was a mega It's listening that they have is it a mega to spend and I was still at the team that they needed much more sometimes than the smaller after the smaller companies definitely to them. But it's much easier for smaller companies to service their people than it is for bigger ones. And when when you get bigger, when you scale, it becomes very detailed and very nuanced with your service, your service, how you're going to deliver it and and the channels and where to spend. When you're spending more money, you really want to make sure that you're spending it in a smart way. When you're small, not necessarily do you do you need to be so focused on it in the beginning in the beginning. This is when you're very small. Because as I said, it's a personal connection with the company, with the customers, right? You have no personal connection with the other with the other customer, right? So, that's his brand. If he wants to grow out of that, then that's when it becomes more of needing a real system and a real process and how to do that. Correct. That's true. When somebody's really small, a lot of times a gross from the sales is a personal connection >> with the other with the customers, yeah. Yeah. But at the same time, I I feel as a small as a small company, in order to grow, they have a marketing and branding plan because they block my stuff. Yeah. They're going in circles in the in the small stage. You you need to break out and and to break out of the small And it's painful sometimes. When they identify as branding identify the two or three things that every company a company that has two or three things that they want or a single thing. When a person can't deal with the person can't deal with the experience from dealing with the person that they want to is also looking for them a single thing at least. Yeah. Let me say in in in my company, yeah. The in self moment I have said different things. But I said what what I want to say is that as a person with in the company I feel as delivered a a clearer value and it's directed from point A to point B. Okay. Meaning to say when a person comes to me and I work with them for three months, I make it so that 100% after the three months that they get in a field as they have accomplished. Yeah. Meaning let's say a person works with a consultant, yeah, or with a marketing company and they feel after three months that it cost money with time, with energy and how do we how do we take back all of Okay. So, if they try to focus on as when a person comes to me for a meeting or they feel after the meeting as it is clearer I have a feeling I'm going with that. Yeah, but I became a clearer that I got further. It's what happened to him is a person feels I comfortable because of that feel the person I comfortable to recommend to others because when a person will recommend I know what the package I have. The package is I never got tricked in so much tricked in Yeah. And this is the package that every person has. So, let me say the deals with the mortgage broker, yeah. With the mortgage broker I never got tricked and that's good that it feels that he is not honest with me and I never got tricked in that way. I feel it so much when I get closed. Can you tell me how many times you got tricked in that way and what was the package subconsciously? I never got tricked in what was the thing. It's the man who should kill you. Correct. So, a person I don't know what it is. Yeah, but I don't know finish finish that. Yeah. So, when a person should say referable, we should say a certain thing. It's usually expensive, yeah, but it's good. It's also okay. When a person should refer, a person should refer, a person should say "Look, it is good and delivered and it's not cheap." So, the person has no problem with that. It's not cheap, it's good. So, the person should say "Oh, okay, now I see that it's not cheap. Fine, it's not for free." And then confidence is delivering the service that you deliver. Okay. Okay. A person can service every person. So, say "Okay, you must know what to do for people." What they have the money to spend or it's a little bit of everything, yeah. But it's not a clearer thing, you lose the the referral factor. This is a very good thing to say what comes to branding and marketing, yeah. Let me let me give an example yeah. When a person will make a person with an organization or a business, yeah, and they will one should communicate what he did to the public. Let me say the Penguin Group, yeah. Let me say the Penguin Group as an example. I feel one should interview all the clients. I will show them the information and I will bring it to a person emotionally. As a person will understand when they watch this, oh, this is what I did, yeah. Why would every person that I know would recommend a person because when they watch something good Yeah, they see the and they see the organization, yeah, what people have connected with them. However he does it, I feel him do I feel him not so much the stuff I know what he was doing and what he was not doing, not to lose the person's attention. They are not cheap, they are not slow, they are not I don't know. I I know the end result of the service. I know that I am comfortable to recommend because I know that the product is good. This makes a person recommend. Now, let's say let's say the opposite from that. Let's say a person must make videos for businesses. They charge $500, $1,000, $1,500, $2,000 and it's an AI with stuff with everything. But they don't recommend. Because it's good. It's not good. So, what happened is they make it so that they are not satisfied. This is not the charge of $500. This is not the point because the person is upset. What happened is This is what happened. What happened is two weeks after they charged $500, they lost the person for two weeks. What happened is they didn't get it. Now, they make it so that they make it for $500. This is not 30 seconds of it. Fine, no problem. If a person has 30 seconds that they want to send, okay. What they make is not good, but they make it overnight. Okay. Yeah. Domino's Pizza is not good, it's not good the pizza, but it's delivered within 30 minutes. That's the point. Yeah. A person is not good to say "Okay, this is not the best pizza." That's what I am saying. Right. Okay. But you got to have something business of and this is a bigger part of branding that companies skip when they are busy. Yeah, I I consistent message with details. That's what the thing in the brand should be. But that's what drives the world. That's what's going to drive business. And when they advertised, that should be the focus of the advertisement. That's what it is it is I could to focus enough of other services and other products, but the consistency of the message with details should be one consistent across every touch point of the brand. Correct. So, I meant to say because it's marketing and branding and there are things that we can discuss. Um I meant to say that we should talk again and maybe there are actual case studies, examples from the world. Yeah, I think there's a lot to it. It's a very interesting topic. It's a very good idea. Of course, because somehow every person has a place where every person hopes to get the result. The thing in the master cost of money and the money is not used. It creates a lot of frustration Okay? And appreciate your time. Sure.