Businessman Podcast Ep #16 - פרק טז | The Blueprint for Growth: How Burech Fromowitz Built BF Design

in the long run is big deal. >> The way ClickUp was built was built based on our our weaknesses, based on my weaknesses. >> In English, those um starving artists, I have to get a job out four hours. I'm going to sit down at one point that we spent $200,000 on Microsoft Access over the last four years of building the system. And I had to say, I'm flushing it down the toilet. Thanks for taking the time. Um introduction business. Um, a lot of the most of the listeners small to midsize business owners was but for the most part I would say um the biggest percentage of the readers are average business owners was born business. Okay. And the the struggle is I how do I go from zan from an idea from a startup to an actual business and there's a lot to it says um it's not simple it's a journey and says even though most people are not in your industry and it's completely different industry but the fundamentals and the foundations are always the same the struggles the the human side is always the same. So journey is a sketch technically number two in a professional industry school okay correct me if I'm wrong but if I understand correctly architectural school graduated an architect and decided let me open up have it in our line again in our service business. This is a professional business technically the owner in the employees professionals and it provides a professional service. So this align is a interesting example of because it opens up people to a whole bigger world of what could be done. So this I'm part the the part that I like is that the bottom line how many years are we talking about? about 23 >> 23 >> 24 uh yeah somewhere there. >> So over time you know synerg overnight success but over time you establish yourself as a successful company with multiple locations servicing a lot of bigger clients. So you establish yourself as a successful company. So it it started it build it and it achieved. So this is part number two and in and part number three is the processes and and software which is a struggle there's a certain shift he's very excited and usually in order to be successful in the beginning because he knows the business inside out he lives it breeds it and that's part the business successful is as is there was delivered perfect service. But at some point realization and this is a painful process because and at the same time you have to do it process. Okay. And because this guy would the the penguin group. So I watched it and was and so I think is going to be valuable to a lot of people. But now with that introduction the basics. So ga overview what do you do and how did you get started? >> Okay. So let me correct you a little bit. Sure. Um, regarding the fact that I did not go to architecture school. I did go to architecture school. I did not graduate but I did go to architecture school and uh >> but you went later after starting the business. >> No, no, no. As a matter of fact um I started architectural school and um and then um at one point I got myself a job because I had to pay for architecture school. It's not cheap. Um so I got a job by an architect um as a drafts person. Um somehow I got introduced to a Gisha architectural firm. Um and u he did not hire me right away. He he asked me for certain things. Um at that time talking about 25 years ago, 24 years ago, um a big part of the architectural firms were still drawing by hand. But hashem I have a good hand and I used to draw by hand and he need he he brought me in mostly for my drawing skills more than anything else. And I showed him a few things that I drew over the years including paintings including uh no portraits of people including uh pictures of buildings or whatever it is. and and uh he did not hire me right away. But uh a few months later, I got a call from him that uh if I can meet him again. He's desperate for another draft person. I told him I'm not so, you know, I don't know enough that about it. I'm just in school for a short period of time. Um I think it was my second semester, maybe third semester. [snorts] And um and then um he was one but then he hired me. Um I remember the first time he hired me, he was telling me to do certain things. I had no idea what he's talking about. I ran to Barnes & Noble. I don't know if I remember who were Barnes & Noble and I bought a couple of books at night and I quickly read it and uh and the next morning I was ready to go to go to work and and uh and I can't complain. Uh I was I was buying for quite a few years and I learned a lot from from that from that firm from you know from the profession from what to do what not to do and I was still going to school part-time I was still I was still in yeshiva part time like BMG and I was still uh I was still be trying to be a husband a parent and um it was a little bit of a busy time in my life let's say [snorts] let's just say that it was a busy time in my life and Um, at one point, um, people started, uh, people started calling me and say, "Oh, I heard you do architecture. Could you do this? Can you do that for me?" I mean, I still meet the person that gave me the first job. And then I resisted it actually. And I told him, "I'm not ready for it yet. I'm still working for uh for a firm." And uh, I'm not sure if I'm if I'm confident about it. And he, no, no, start, start. No, don't worry about it. Don't worry. And uh I could say hashem it was a house that we were going to do it. We were going to do an addition to it and we designed the house and uh at one point [clears throat] uh we started construction and realized that there was a lot of problems inside the walls and they had to knock down the house until the foundation and we ended up doing almost almost in a brand new house besides the the foundation plus a little bit addition. Bashem about a year ago or a half a year ago about eight months ago this person called me and he say says that he wants to do another edition out of the house. Now we don't do so many editions at this point. Bashem 24 years later yeah I would hope uh that we're on to much bigger things but uh there's something there that uh something personal about it and it says mi sure no problem whatever you want I'll take care of you. And now we're doing an audition around this house so uh maybe we'll call the second generation. Uh so that that's that's that's my my my my start was natural a little bit but it was not fully like you're saying um I um I I never finished school because um I had a massive car accident that put me out of commission for [snorts] for about uh 8 months or so and um I never went back from there. Um this is all while I was working in so so I never finished but hashem I have uh I have a degree so I could um I could um I could be a partner in a firm I could own a firm and uh and um that uh gives me the uh ability to run the company. Now back to what you're saying that uh know that I went out and I built a company. It's not either exactly the way you're saying uh passm and uh one of the big things was always a discussion of what you can do for pana right so first I was I was in yeshiva and bmg for 5 years I could say that uh maybe I could call it uh transformative in the know the from from my life and it still is I think um you know you you start off in a way that uh starts off with yeshiva starts off with tida and And that's that's your life. And uh even after after I was going to school and after I was still working, I was still in yeshiva half a day and I was still going back to to yeshiva for a while. So for many many years. So I always had a passion for architecture. It it was a combination of art. So I enjoyed art. I used to draw a lot. Um I was a ba I used to land up to Villinsburg and I used to land up uh canal street on pearl paint. There was vice there was a art shop. I don't know if my parents let me go on the train myself, but okay. They let me, but I went anyhow. And I used to buy supplies and different types of pens and brushes and uh all kinds of different art supplies. The people over there look a little bit interesting. Why the hair grows green and that's why I landed up and uh but uh architecture was natural for me because it was it was uh I enjoyed the art part of it. enjoyed the construction part of it and there was construction in the corner of the bus straight into the building in the building. Uh how >> raw street and right behind a boat single family house. Um and every single day every single day the first thing and I went into the building I was a little bit uh >> construction in in in art. >> Yeah because both of them are creating so it's definitely an art 100%. It's definitely an art 100%. Yeah but not necessarily an art enjoyed the construction part of it the creating part of it. I always enjoy that. cement was a severe >> I was fascinated by construction. So that was something which I always uh always I'll tell you a cute story in a minute >> but it's always I became curious in the construction. >> Mhm. >> So for me the the art and the the construction part was natural. So architecture was almost natural for me. If I wouldn't do architecture I would probably build furniture or design furniture but so it was it had to be something that design the imagination and and the art. So mention should I go into architecture? I'm very creative. I'm very creative. The first thing I used to ask was do you know how to draw? So oh I don't know how to draw. Drawing. Drawing is basically in architecture is is a way of communicating your ideas. How about this? This is going to look better. kick of them then you it's not that you you you can't do architecture you can't you could use your imagination you can't express yourself so it's a form of expression hand is it's a whole different ball game with AI and with different software but originally it was all hand uh was was all hand drawings >> monograms of invitations >> so I probably did 500 of them I used to draw >> that's the style >> I wouldn't even know because uh if I'm not into it I hope it's not a big deal and there is you know it's a different ball game today but but if you think about it it's the same thing really and [snorts] you know you create a form and a shape and you fit it in either you fit it in or you stretch it or you you know it's really the same thing if you say I get the point AI >> but on a certain type of creative you have to prompt it. AI you have to prompt in a certain way >> vision the vision idea because creativity misdict correct for AI >> it's a tool now it's it's a much quicker tool it's a much better tool and we don't even know where it's going so in it's going to be very different than it's now question about it but it's definitely a tool you know at this point is he going to be able to create things yeah the combination of AI and robotics is going to leave uh a big part of humanity in very disappointed very excited but very disappointed also because what's going to be but um yeah >> okay so let's go architectural projects probably residential homes architecture what was the goal of architecture So architecture. So my goal was I'll go to school and graduating 9 to5. That that was my original goal. Not entrepreneur. Never I never thought of running a business or growing a business. That was definitely not uh the intention. But as I was forced into it, my are you crazy? What? Somebody's going to tell you if you could go on vacation or you can't go on vacation or you or or or if you you could go for lunch now or you you can have a serious this is what you want to do. I wouldn't say that. [laughter] >> Okay. Title employee number four. >> Yeah. But uh my wife still has memories from uh I tell people my wife is employee number four in Madison Title says employee number four. I would say employee number one. So that was a good way of looking at things you know. Zigg employee number four doesn't and but she lives there for 10 years and she had 100 people 180 people under her she was she was a manager over there so I would say yeah she always had a boss but she was she was the one managing really [snorts] >> 100% 100% >> so I I'll I'll frame it a little bit differently some people they they're very very driven because they want to see success. So they see they see a vision they see success and they drive themselves a certain way that I I never never had an imagination as I never thought of a company with 50 employees was you know their today's thought of myself as being driven to go after a job. That was my personality. But because I saw success, I got I got into a successful mode of being driven. So the the driver was a success as you would think. >> Zision got a drive building. Who what did the plans on this building? I don't know. What do you mean you don't know? Like uh I can't believe you didn't do it. So she looks at every building as a target. Why can't you do this? Why can't you do this? >> But in a in a supportive way, I guess in a >> supportive way. So unique. >> It's unique. >> Yeah, it's unique. It's definitely a conversation. Uh if you want to hear about it, we could talk about it. But the basics from the business. So projects and you got into bigger commercial. >> No. So projects Indiana company was a small firm with six or seven people and it was a very very old-fashioned basically all hand drawing to draw by by computer CAD that time was before Revit not used Revit in CAD and he was resisting. I think he said the plans don't have the same. Every plan looks the same. It has to have a certain style. Everybody has to see how what your what your handwriting is. You know, you have to have a certain style. Nobody cares about your handwriting. It looks very nice. But the person that's building it couldn't care less when the building is up. Nobody cares how you draw your four if the top of it is connected or not. >> [laughter] >> He was at one point people I kept people kept on throwing jobs at me additions single families and all that and even commercial and uh at one point he got nervous because at one point mentioned in in company into me was again into aim and he was getting nervous as this this is becoming too big for me. I I can't handle this. And um at one point he told me, you know, I I'm very happy this is going on. I'm making good money and but one day I want to I want to retire and I don't see myself being able to retire, you know, like, oh, this is I'm making too much money and systems, right? Yeah. Yeah. 100% mentality 100% we used to go out to check jobs came to a point takes time to get comfortable. I got very comfortable with it because you see you know first of all you see are people in your office in order to do things better than you. You'd be surprised >> the goal for our business initi I'm busy goal is >> the goal is and the goal is also to have a successful business necessarily the goal is still talking about business that's a business it's not necessarily >> a system was generate guilt ongoing there's sales coming in there's operation there's repeated customers >> exactly exactly that's what that's what business is all about so back to that point I I ventured out and uh with him for whatever reason. This is the point. I kept up with him in uh >> but he was okay with you. >> He was okay. We we were we we stayed we stayed very good. As a matter of fact, I used to use him sometimes for certain things. He used to call me to back up certain things but uh he couldn't deal with it. He couldn't deal with a company. He him wasn't a company. >> Mhm. >> You know, shine. So that was that was that. Later on later on um uh I opened up a office in my house and my house was uh that timeabit I opened up an office in my garage. My garage wasn't really my garage cuz I really as during construction I the garage the foundation went down all the way down to the rest of the foundation. And I said, "Hold on. This is crazy, but they're going to fill it up with dirt." And uh so there's going to be a garage. I called up the the owner, the builder, and I told him, "Do me a favor. Uh let's do a floor over here." And I get two floors out of it. So I have a guest I had a guest room on the first floor and a guest room on the second floor. But I never did it at that point. That time was empty space. So I used end of end up using the space of the garage, which was approximately 56 700 square ft. Um and I used that was my office. I start I hired first I hired one person two um second person both people were working from home at that point still they work from home we used to meet um part of it was uh in my in my office over there but some of it sometimes we used to meet in 1072 uh Madison if you remember >> um that was a meeting point and uh I used to give them work and then I hired four or five people but the four until we were four or five people basically I was trying to delegate I I was trying to I was trying to teach them to train them and it was a big struggle. Uh I quickly figured out that I'm not a very good uh delegator. I'm not a very good manager. [snorts] So the mush to training. So you don't train always with a system. You sometimes you train as things come in. Okay. days, but emergency deliver mention. Hold on a second. This is crazy. answer the phone. I Mr. is not available right now. Mr. Not here and the delegation was a disaster. Um because I got pushed to it a little bit. And >> it's part of being creative is because your your mind keeps running. and custom built in that cup, >> right? >> So, it's not easy to put it into a process. >> It's it's very not easy. I think the creative mind has a hard time putting as a has a hard time putting things into a process believing that a process could actually work. I think that's even that's even a bigger struggle. >> I think for me that was a bigger struggle because how could this person do it? I'm giving I'm giving over my over here. I'm giving over my my entire concept. my entire brain is is is is is in a piece of paper over here, right? [snorts] Um you wouldn't believe that you could put into a system that things could be created by somebody else know today it's it's very very different than and I think it came with a lot of pain over the years but that was the process. So at one point I was I was um at one point I was really really struggling. I was I was going with sugar. Um at that point I think we had seven or eight employees maybe and uh my wife was at that point working for Madison for 10 years and Madison Title was was was doing very very well. >> It was before 2008 I guess >> it was it was uh before 2008. Yes. Yes it was uh No, it was two it was >> I was there 2005 to 2008. >> So my wife joined our company I think it was 2008. Beginning of 2008 it was. Yes. Yeah. Because after 2008 it was quiet for a year or two. So >> it was quiet. So my wife wasn't there I think in that time. As a matter [clears throat] of fact in 2008 >> there was no closings I think for six months right after the cash. >> That that could be I wouldn't know. Uh um Madison title has um Ros I admire him tremendously and he has that somehow he's >> he's supporting a lot of a lot of people a lot of a lot of his workers the husbands are learning. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yep. Yep. >> Okay. >> And um at that point my wife was managing a big part of Madison title um the whole New Jersey department at that time and she was also involved in building city book at SUL. She was involved in different projects for you know for for Madison title and uh she said it's time to move on and she came to our company. It was a big decision to make because you know especially as devised as those vulnerabilities somehow you have to be ready to say, "Okay, hold on a second. I'm going to I'm going to be a man and I'm going to take it like a man." So, as I'm not making I'm not making a big move over here then u I'm going to have a I'm going to have a lot of trouble soon. >> So again the switch in how did you switch from >> I acknowledge so first I acknowledge me that I I'm not a very good delegator >> and I'm not a good manager. I I I acknowledge it to myself and at one point Yeah. Yeah. And it's okay. >> It's okay. >> It's okay% managers. So my as soon as my wife joined the company operations and it was like unofficial agreements. I think it was a natural thing >> that she came from the management end of it anyhow. So that that's where she came from. So it was a natural thing for her to manage the company right away in the beginning in the company. The the employees hold on [clears throat] where is he the mentality and they settled in and they realized that she's here to help them and uh and she started managing it. management used to have management meetings in the design, the quality control, the the construction part of it. >> That's probably the reason why it's working so well because they split the focus of operations and focus of the quality of the design, right? But On the other hand, in the focus of she would still put in processes for quality control. She wouldn't know what the quality control is about. Correct. >> But she trusts you on that part and you trust her on the [snorts] management part. >> Correct. I So in the management some manager meetings, right? I'm evolving it and we discuss it and sometimes I'll have a disagreement with her and it would happen quite often as a matter of fact because again my my my mind works different than her mind. So it's no question about it. >> So who wins when when there's a fight? >> I think the company wins. So because and sometimes sometimes a conversation CFO in the company that she's the middle person somehow and I rely on both of them for their judgment much more than for my judgment. >> How do you keep the ego out of the conversations? How do you don't not take it personally? >> Um I it's a struggle. I I can't say I don't have an ego. [laughter] I do. I'm a human being. Yeah. But I think if you look at the bigger the bigger picture, you look at the company, you look at you're building a company, you're not just building uh uh you know, one thing at a time. You're looking at a bigger picture and you know that this person is better at and I'll give you an example. Um by nature, but I'm going to trust you over the years that I don't trust myself when it comes to trust. My wife, I don't know, maybe she has that whatever. She could smell a rat from a mile away right away. This guy's a sneak. This guy's a sneak. This guy, whatever. Over the years that uh 90% of the time she was right. So when it comes to things opinion, I always give my opinion. I I say my opinion is still going to be in my opinion. It could be the wrong opinion, but that's my opinion. And if we would have a contrast, I'll say fine. My opinion was still so. So sometimes I come back and say I told you so. Sometimes I told you so was a sweet moment. But doesn't matter the point is a device. So that's a that's a I call it respect but I respect me respect for the position. Okay, no problem. I respect that that uh It's about the business. The business wins and this is simply the focuses of the business. The business and the business is efficient business. This is the beginning. Your wife joined the company. How's it going? What do you want to know? You want to know the marriage or the or the business? The marriage. The marriage. Who cares about the business? Okay. The marriage is a different a different thing that you deal with at home. Have to deal with it. Yeah. It's about the big picture. Okay. In the long run is big deal. The big picture a successful business in the big picture. is respect respective. [snorts] So this is the guy >> 100% over the years in in understanding processes and even implementing it but also building it um because I saw it work and and I I I studied musical books I studied it but >> see improvement right so that's why I could be wrong but even a creative person even the most creative person as absomed through creatives and abs Absom minded uh uh if you're absom minded you have much bigger problems anyhow um I don't think you could run too many things uh I know somebody does who's absom minded has has a company the company's flying he's doing it for so many years already and the company is flying and he still has customers because he's so creative that people want to use him but his customers are so struggling but he still has a business does he have a real healthy business no so I think even somebody who's creative could still learn how uh run processes and even understand how processes are built implemented. Okay, so I'm going to do the same thing or the best for the company. You you could learn to understand how to build a process understanding it. [snorts] There is of the most efficient V starving artist actually mention which is technically what you did and this is the solution basically the genius part absent minded man right right 100% but you have to let go a little bit. Correct. He has to let go of certain things. >> So this is a certain decision. >> Yeah. >> The the being lost. >> So the creative man sees certain things the way he sees it. So he sees pictures in his brain. He sees visions. He doesn't always see how how he got there. So therefore correct. So it's a different >> committed to get there. It could be done >> could be done 100%. >> Okay. So processes and software and scaling running three locations multiple employees different projects going on simultaneously as a business in our structure. >> So Um so procedures processes but systems. Okay. But program system manager there was a little bit of a system. Okay. In the beginning every day I was putting out fires all day. I was putting out fires and mention putting out fires. So we used to have company meetings and software Microsoft Access is going to do workflows. It's going to eventually I moved out of the house and at one point I had probably 15 employees in the house and uh let's just say the neighbors were less than excited about the parking situation. But uh moved out and uh and I moved on to moved moved to a regular office mashem and uh was there for about 12 years for 11 years 12 years. Um interesting little little note that uh when I moved out of the office moved out of the house um a customer I'm so happy that you moved out of the house you moved into the office. Okay, very good. I'm also happy. No, because now I can give you bigger jobs say now you give bigger jobs without the the the bigger jobs to do >> office >> with the size Vmont offices location but you have to understand I do small jobs here and there so I used you and I was very happy with your work but a bigger job I'm going to bring my investor to to your house in a garage and a side the over clean garden or this is a pink there was a stroller outside or there was a so the big jobs used to go to somebody else I wasn't happy but I But now I could I could use you. I have a real office. And you know, you don't know how much you're leaving on the table by not growing your company in a in a real way. But for that person, I I I've done quite a few very big jobs. And uh >> but on the other hand, if you take a big office before you're ready and before you can really afford it, sometimes it takes you down. >> Yeah. Yes. I I've watched that happen. You have to know. I've watched it happen. You have to know. You have to know. Yeah. Yeah. And uh when we moved into new office we we had new procedures and and basham things progressed till we grew to about uh 25 maybe 30 people. At that point we were again struggling. Uh it was it was we were going mashika uh people were throwing jobs at us. We were getting so much work and and we could just simply couldn't handle it. And it was also not structured properly because in a way like everybody knew what they're doing but there wasn't a clear clear hierarchy where this person reports to this person this person reports to this person. There wasn't very it wasn't organized perfectly and it was in fact I use the word chaos maybe I don't want to sound like it's chaos but it was chaos internally because we were struggling to get work out we were struggling to get work in. It was it was just it was just a a struggle. for a short commercial break. Yeah. Simple needs refill. So simple need technology. Redefining your drinking water created using breakthrough technology. It's time to move on to the next generation in water dispensers. NOM water anytime, weekdays [music] or shabas. Cold, room temperature or hot water. Strictly kosher NOM water. The only water dispenser perfectly [music] suited for Shabas with its adjustable water temperature. The only water dispenser that transitions to Shabas and Yontu automatically without human touch. Goes to sleep with you but wakes [music] before you with its unique advanced and energyefficient technology. Free, quick and easy installation by our licensed [music] reps. Innovative design, no water, ultimate convenience in your kitchen. >> So, uh, our software was was failing. Our workflow software was failing. It was Microsoft Access and it was built in a way that couldn't handle the the the flow that we wanted. So, you know, we had managers managing the workflow and they couldn't manage it because the software wasn't good enough. So through another company we got um a recommendation to reach out to the penguin group and we reached out to Nana Mhler and who recommended we use ClickUp and first it wasn't just a quick recommendation he understood the company he he came down for a couple of meetings understood what we're doing he looked at a company interviewed a few other people in the company and said okay ClickUp is the company is a sofa you're going to use but we're going to have to I'm going to have to customize it for you >> that you should be able to to use it in a way um I can say about Hashem right Now uh click up and uh after after many many many many uh uh hours of work not my hours so much but the people in my office that uh had the willpower to to do this that uh things run smoothly s know if you look for a job you know where to find it you know what was done on the job a client a client calls and say says I lo exactly 9 to5 or the numbers are going to lake with it's 9 to 3 or maybe 10 to 3 and a half 3:30 whatever it is she could leave the she could leave the desk leave the office tomorrow office tomorrow somebody else could come in and know exactly this kamat no such thing everything is documented there's a paper trail for everything every conversation is documented every time there's a phone call comes in it's documented every request is documented so there's a process in place so that was that was that was the with the help of the penguin group. How long we at that time we had approximately 2530 employees and uh we only called them for the software but then your partner Muller said oh we also do um >> you know processes understanding workflows and and building systems within your company so we said let's go for an interview you know let's go for a for a consultation so I remember my first consultation was was a pro maybe 3 hours, four hours and he I felt like a it felt like a therapy session. I never went to therapy but it felt like a therapy session. Talk to me about your company. Tell me what your company is like. Tell me your mouse. What are you selling? my CFO was there, he was there and uh it was and and then he tells me, "Give me your vulnerabilities. What's your what's the challenges?" And I says, "Hold on a second. I I I really have to say this." He says, "Yeah, you're going to have otherwise I wouldn't know." I says, "Okay, hold on a second. This is this is uh" and uh Lamas after 3 to four hours, I came out. I never felt I never felt so understood after my conversation with him that he got it. you it >> the reason why this is important is because you can't take chaos and put it into a software >> right >> so things have to be cleared out right >> before they could be systemized that's one of the things that people don't understand >> a lot of people are like okay I'm going to use >> AI I'm going to use a sophisticated software but it's not so simple >> because you things need to be very clear before >> even the the the way ClickUp was built was built based on our our weaknesses based on my weaknesses based on And Nasan also interviewed many other people all the managers in our company and he he interviewed all them and asked them what are your struggles what are you >> but now you understand the reason for it correct looking back >> in the beginning I was you know I was very very skeptical I was like seriously this I have to get this job out four hours I'm going to sit down I'm going to waste an entire day now my company >> this is one of the biggest issues the transition because you were running on on Microsoft access and you had multiple projects going on and all of the sudden you have to start a new thing. You know, you can't shut down the company and start again. So, >> I made a at one point that we spent $200,000 on Microsoft Access over the last four years of building the system. And I had to say I'm flushing it down the toilet. This is not working for us. >> It's not scalable. >> How wasn't scalable? I says I said >> $200,000 in customization over the years. It was it was very very expensive. Um I don't know if we spent so much on ClickUp over over sure not. But Microsoft, the problem was that Microsoft Access wasn't built for the size of the company and the amount of customization we wanted to do. So we kept on pushing in more customization, more customization and we called our IT guy. Can you figure out how to how to how to outsmart Microsoft access to be able to do? Of course I could do it. He outsmarted and now we did that. But all of a sudden was failing somewhere else because it wasn't designed >> wasn't designed for that. So and that's when Nano says you must use ClickUp. That's the only thing that's going to work for you in LA. Like I used to go to shows and I used to look hold on a second I'm not the first architectural firm that uh is trying to create a process over here. I used to look for this software this so for demo I demo this I demo that and nothing that I felt that that even clickup I was I was okay so what's ClickUp going to do so when I started with ClickUp I was totally not think it's going to work but okay fine everything runs on ClickUp the entire company runs on ClickUp today but let me go back to what I wanted to say before about Nissan uh systemizing our our our office he created a system that where first of all one thing is very important is redundancy. You can't have one person in the company doing one thing and nobody else knowing how to do it. This is this is something which I learned uh the hard way >> cuz then you blackmailed him. >> It wasn't I wouldn't say blackmail but I felt I felt like I had I remember I had a girl in my office. She was my secretary. She want to call a personal secretary maybe. She left. She left one day to the next. She got a better offer. She gave me two days notice. Two days notice. What do we do in two days? God, I was out of town one of the days. So, what do I do? I didn't know my password to my bank account. I didn't know my password to my Verizon account. And she dropped me like a hot potato. There's no such thing as as to be a system. It has to be I don't know. I know all my passwords, but still I know where to go for it. information is is not in in employees heads. >> The information is in ClickUp. So anyone can step in, >> but not all information in ClickUp, but what's not in ClickUp is still by more than one person. In other words, if let's say certain passwords I'm not is not in ClickUp. I give you an example password. I'm using password as an example. My passwords in ClickUp, you know, you're vulnerable for hacking or whatever. You want to have more than one person doing one thing. There's no such thing as only one person knowing how to do. You're leaving yourself open to a vulnerability. So, so that's one very very important. You learned that the hard way. It was it wasn't an easy uh easy lesson to learn. >> I think sometimes you have an employee that goes into the hospital for an emergency. >> The whole company gets stuck. >> Yeah. >> Because she's holding on to a certain thing and that nobody knows and you have to reach out to her. It's very painful to bother somebody in difficult circumstance. But sometimes you don't have a choice. So it happened way back it was it was a normal thing when somebody went out it was chaos was sent me yes stuck today you have to leave for a day you have to leave for a day you have to leave for a week somehow you have to leave I'm not saying it's it's a struggle like every uh person like nobody's replaceable but everybody is uh every you know nobody's replaceable but everybody's replaceable >> but to a certain extent you want to have a system where somebody else could pick it up maybe the person this person that's been doing it for so so long knows it better than the next person but person will get there I remember I had an an employee running one of the teams one of the one of my teams and she also left after a shikat for whatever reason I thought this this whole department is going to have to shut down because I I don't have the right person to put in for this and this thing because this person was the best way of doing it okay I went to another person I I trained a person took a little bit of time and that person replace that person. That person is with us now for 16 or 17 years and is doing a phenomenal job. So even that person has that person had a baby, right? Somebody has to fill in for two months. So you know you have to think about it. You have to you have to put in a process. He advises as as as at one point person is going to have to go out. So think about it before. So it's all about processes. So Nano set up in our office a system with besides the software a process of of hierarchy. You you manage this person. If you're out you have to report to this. I had a girl in my office say I don't understand. I'm here longer than this person. So I'm going to have to report to her but I come late I don't know if you know I'm here before you also and I'm if I come an hour late I call the office or I text her or I I message them then I'm going to be late. It's not a it's not a you know if you think of every little thing as oh I'm older than you or you know you're never going to get anywhere. So if it's about you yeah you're not going to get anywhere if you look at a system and a process the office has to know you're going to be out. What's wrong with that? >> How was the transition? Was it painful? >> Transition was very painful. It was very painful. >> There's no simple way of doing it. You have to finish the old projects in excess or >> Yes. It was it was very very painful. So it was painful but it was less painful for me than of a lot of other people in the company. I could tell you that in the beginning at that time we had let's say 25 employees um most of the employees resisted it in the beginning. It took a very long time and you know and and the answer was always I don't have time to put in information. I don't have time to do this because you ask me to get this done tomorrow and and and how am I going to get it done? And we used to say it's this the process is more important than the actual goal and the actual uh prize and sometimes they didn't understand it because they were also trained in a way mofen you know you keep on chasing yourself so it was always certain training and at one point they started realizing it took time I I would say the breaking point from into clickup was I would say at least at least uh eight months of of people really >> who the company was was the guy that was very committed all the way through because it takes a certain at least one person on top needs to be >> so we have a a woman CFO >> okay >> um she is not a CFO really because she I'll tell you a quick story about her so she came in as a bookkeeper she has a degree in business she has MBA she's an accountant but Jose says an MBA um and at one point she was our bookkeeper and later on she became a little more than a bookkeeper at one point she sat down with me and said Mr. Prime Awards. You know, I love the environment over here. I want to stay, but I feel like I'm just becoming a better bookkeeper. I'm not here to be a bookkeeper. I'm here to be to grow the business. Are you willing to grow the business with me? >> If not, I'm going to move on. And at that point, >> cuz what do you mean to grow the business? So, you do the bookkeeping, you do the collections, you do an amazing job in collections. You you put in process in collections. Wonderful. You do the proposals already. Wonderful. You're doing a great job. So first of all for why she didn't feel fulfilled. She was making a very nice salary. She was she was doing a good job. I can't say I didn't compliment her. You know she did an amazing amazing job growing the company. I remember like today if I look back at it now I told her look yeah sure listen I have some other investments and we're going to we're going to you know we're looking at to buying a certain property. We're going to develop it. We're going to do more business and you're going to running that part. You're going to do the management over here. I'm [clears throat] talking to you about your business and you the I didn't understand what you wanted. I I left I left the conversation and I said I have to think about this. You know what do you So I thought about it for two three days and I sat down with her. I told her okay I I I think I understand what you want. You want to grow the company as a company, not necessarily >> as a >> as go to other companies, other business. Exactly. Yeah. >> So, Lamasa, she was the one that she pushed, she pushed, she pushed. Uh I wouldn't call her aggressive, but she's definitely determined, you know, not aggressive, but very determined. >> That's what it takes. >> Yeah. So, it's definitely determination that pushed us to it. And she was more driven than I was to a certain extent because for me, it was like, okay, you know, you know, she was we have to build the process. We have to build the process. She was working with my wife a lot on it. But she was even more driven than my wife to a certain extent because my wife is also, let's call it maybe old school management style. We're going to make a system. We're going to you're going to do this, you're going to do that. She was more believing in the process of the what technology could do for you, what what uh process could do for you. So uh it took took a took a long time but u I would say after 8 months or after a year I started seeing the the fruits of the labor of mis and it started feeling like a like a like a company started feeling like a like there's a business over here it's not there also I was able to at that time once I I felt more ru that that the system in place over there today and I And some people say, "Oh, I want to build a business build a business. I could go away whenever I want. I don't go away. People know that I go away so often. I'm not I'm not a traveler. I like to stick stick around." And I also love my business. I I love what I do. So for me, if I go on vacation, I take a look at my laptop. My wife is not so happy with that big because I I enjoy doing it. I Somebody asked me once, um, if you win the lottery, you're going to make $100 million. What What are you going to do? You going to retire? No, I'm going to do exactly the same thing as I want to do now. Oh, see you're going to just going to do it for free? Said, "No, no, I'm going to charge more." So, why don't you charge more? Said, "Because now I have certain jobs that I have to give a better price. I'm not going to get the job. That's the price." So giving pricing is always very it's a struggle because you always I'm undercharging or overcharging especially if you you're you're giving in your giving your your in it the be oh you know I want to do the job cuz I so love this job and you're passionate about it but then are you are you too weak that you you can't say it's worth this much? I'm not sure. But then sometimes you underestimate the creative minds underestimate how long it takes uh to do certain things. So device you give them a price uh $5,000 to do and you end up doing costing you 150 hours. You lost money, right? Um lost money meaning real money because your staff is doing it. Not only you uh I'm not talking about your time, but your time is also worth money. when you switched over to ClickUp and things got more organized and structured a year later looking back what are the actual benefits like did you free up employees time like what are the benefits that you see are you able to take on more projects with the same employees like are you more confident in growing there's probably different things that change >> so one thing 100% when once we put in systems in place so first of all I'll give you a small little story um about eight years ago maybe nine years ago I sat down with a financial planner uh talking about financials not not for the company general financials and he asked me how much money how much money I made that year and how much the company made that year. Oh, we we uh discussed it and he asked what do you project for next year? So I told him project for next year. I I think this I told him this is my probably my my best year that I had and I will ever have. He looks at me you ever have? Whoa. What's this? Look at my company. I have 20 23 24 employees. There's no way I could hire more people because I'm just creating more chaos in the company by hiring more people. I'm choking my people, my my staff. There's no way I could do more than this. Maybe even I'm gonna have to release a little bit and not take concert on certain. There was jobs. We used to people used to call us. I we used to reject maybe 50% of the work that we used to accept. Uh you know we couldn't handle it. People used to call us also from all over the place. I used to get phone calls from all over the country for Yiddisha housing for Chicago uh Los Angeles my uh um five towns. Uh I used to reject all that because the company couldn't handle it and I was so busy in Lakewood on Lakewood I mean Lakewood and the surrounding towns that we couldn't handle anything more than that and hiring more people was not an option. That's the reason why I opened up my office at I told you before that I I wanted to create a new company that could do some back work without bringing more chaos into that the chaos is not because I have too little people too too many people. It was more about the system. So I opened a company that's and we're going they're going to do it backward. it fell apart by co whatever it was that was a whole different story not for now but later on once we had a system in place we we built teams so lushel um somebody asked me oh I'm not sure if I want to use your company because you're such a big company you have 50 employees and I want to do a custom home I don't want to be one of uh I told him you have to understand it's not I have 50 employees in in the company in the department that you're going to be dealing with you're going to have one manager one project manager a coordinator that's going to run the scheduling and you can have three to four people in that in that department who are going to deal with huge project. It's a small company. That part is a very small company. He says, "Wow, I never I never thought of it that way." Last did his job and he he is thrilled. He sent us a few of his friends to know to to to do their jobs, but it's a small company. It's a big company with a bunch of little small parts to it. And each one operates on its own. So now, for example, if that department needs more help, I could plug in another person without chaos. I could plug plug in two people in there and we also created a system and um a system of training. We created a handbook of training. We created videos internally. The first time we trained a bunch of people. We used to train I okay how did we train? We took uh uh okay you're doing this fine. We're going to sit somebody next to you for two months now. What are you going to teach them? And this is how it went. And it was it was it was so stressful for the person. At one point we said okay we're not going to train oneonone anymore. We're taking a group of people. We're going to hire a whole group and we're going to start September 1st, whatever, September 4th, whatever it was. We're going to hire now. We're sorry. We're going to we're going to train them now and we're going to create we're going to record everything. We recorded all the conversations, all the the screenshots, everything was recorded and we have a few hundred hours of recordings for training and now when we come to training, we use that. We perfected it. We upgraded it and that is what they train with. Sometimes we take the the the group of people we trained like for example if two years ago we trained 10 10 people. How do we how do we train 10 people at a time? We created a training class and they watch the videos. We give them >> a system and a process for training. Training is a big part >> and training itself became a process. We opened up our office in Detroit, Michigan. We we went down I flew down there a couple times. We interviewed a bunch of people and we we trained all the girls the the from girls trained right out of seminary knew zero kamat kamat zero of of design architecture art anything and we trained them with a system in place with videos our own videos our own our own tutorials our own exercises do this we even created a test so after two days or three days you have to be able to create this now if you fail you're out right so we pay you for your we give you extra whatever without and there have been people in our office that fell out that came in for training and it didn't work not for them I had one girl in my office people always ask firing right I had a girl my office she wasn't with us for a year and a half and we tried and I have a hard time she's an older girl she'll lose her job what she going to do I sat down with her which by the way you never sit down with her yourself you always bring somebody else in because you don't ever know what what trouble you get into. Um, you know, but he sat down. He said, "Listen, there I've been doing this for 20 years. I've known this for 22 years. I've watched people in my company. I had 100 people through the company, maybe more out of 200, whatever it was. I I don't think you're going to be the star of the company of this. I would advise you to look for something else. But you could be here for two weeks or four weeks if it doesn't, but look for a different job and you'll go you'll go out and you'll be very happy." And but I don't now if you want to go to my my competitor because you think that you you want to prove me wrong, go prove me wrong. No problem. Prove me wrong. But if you want master this girl, she ended up going to work for another company, not a competitor. She's in the design field, but doing something else. We deal with her and she's very good at what she does and she's always thanking us, saying, you know, you pushed me into to what I belong, where I belong. And that's where she belongs. >> This is a good point cuz most of the time when you send someone away in six months later when you meet them, they tell you that they're happy in their new job. >> Yeah. out of most of the time, but this one was for sure. Yeah, but a lot of time because people are people people do have strengths. Yeah. >> Hashem doesn't make damage goods. So people have unique abilities. Correct. >> It's just sometimes hard to find. >> If you're not happy with them, they're probably not happy with you for whatever reason. So two people. >> No. No. Exactly. And she or he is too scared to leave for whatever reason, either financial uh stability or whatever it is. But >> help them a little bit if you can, but they got to move out. >> So back to what I was saying. Yes. Once we created a better system, we were able to take on more work, much more work, maybe doubling or tripling our work. Bam. Right now, we're we're at 50 employees close to it. We we're also able to scale as far as the company itself. So, we have the company you have the office in in Lakewood. We have office in Detroit and we have office in Florida that does mostly Florida work, right? And it runs seamlessly and and but we connect very often. So, yeah, sometimes I have to go down there, sometimes I don't. I mean but for the most part today with technology also with Zoom and with other other technology it's very easy but even even we I just uh interesting you know we we had uh a funny thing that uh right now it was a big snowstorm and uh my CFO was sent me uh teams with a report of who's working there the Monday there was was a big snowstorm and everybody was closed so she sent me a report more than 50% of the company was working from home seamlessly full-time. It worked worked well. Not everybody could because they have kids, whatever. So, I got looked at a Florida office and it was one of the people who were out. I said, "How's the weather in Florida?" You know, but it wasn't she was out for a different reason or whatever. That's not the point. Interesting enough that it was a girl in my office, a woman that she was there for Shabas in Florida and she ended up getting stuck there. She ended up working in our company over there. Uh picked because she getting stuck because there's no flights back till Thursday, right? So, so it was funny. So, but we were also able to take not only not only more work but much bigger jobs and handle it because we created a system uh when you when you take on a big project we did in Lakewood. I don't know if you've seen uh the bigger projects in Lakewood, but we've done come out to all of them. You come to the industrial park in Lakewood, you come to the uh business park, uh there's 15 massive buildings over there. Uh we we did 12 or 13 of them. You know, there's 10 kos in Lakewood. We did uh eight of them or nine of them. We've done over 500 bhutan 500 bhushian. >> Wow. >> We've done over 350 schools. >> Um you can't you can't create uh you know you can't build a building. You can't design a building I should say. When I say design understand what design means. People don't understand what design mean. Design means you take a napkin and you you draw a picture of it. That's not design. Design of course it's the beginning of the design or that's the second part that design is in your brain really and that's the second part which is expressing yourself. But design meaning every little part that goes into this building, there's no there's no screw in this building that's not by design. There's not somebody somebody thought about which screw this is, which beam size this is, which which type of uh waterproofing you're going to use, what type of uh um um fire rating you're going to use. Somebody thought about it, somebody designed it and somebody approved it and reviewed it. So that's all part of the design >> and you have to figure out how people will use the building and make sure that it's being >> absolutely 100% lush. Uh I'll give you an example. We did a we did a building in Lakewood um you know it's a eightstory office building and we have to understand who is using this building. So we we need a bendish in the building. Why? Because there's a what happens to me? You can't have uh 350 people pack into a conference room. So people come and and and and you have to accommodate them. Hold on a second. How many men? How many women are going to be there? How many people come to this building? What type of companies is there going to be? So it's it's a Yiddisha company. >> If there's three times more women than men, you need different, >> right? Right. You have you have to accommodate all that. You have to think about it. What's the I tell people that uh some people only know how to how to see things in two dimensions. They only see what they see. It's black and white. This is what they see. Some people are are a little more they use their imagination and they they know how to read it in three dimensions. They actually see the picture. They see they see the building. They could they could actually visualize it just by either imagining it or by putting on on a piece of paper and and imagining it. I I I think in architecture you have to see it in the fourth dimension which is really understanding how the building operates, how the building moves of it, >> who goes into the building, who goes out, what time, you know, halls for the most part are in schools, right? How is this going to operate? How's how's the going to get kids dropped off? They're busing. The kala are showing up at 2:00. >> They had this I told you they had this. >> I I walked into a to a hall in Lakewood. Uh they called me. I want to reconfigure the family rooms. So, okay, we had a meeting at 9:00 in the morning. Okay, 9:00 in the morning. Perfect. I come to the to I show up over there 9:00 in the morning and I see there's like 30 or 40 cars in a parking lot and I says, "Who people left the cars there from last night? Why is there 30 40 cars in the parking lot?" Okay, fine. I walk into the building and there are 50 60 people working there in the kitchen. There's eight, nine people working there for the tonight, right? There's waiters cleaning up. There's a crew setting up the flowers for uh you know for for tonight. There's other crew taking away yesterday's uh you know there's there's a building over there's there's something happening over you have to accommodate for that. Where's everything's where's everything going? You know people think oh a building happens. People ask me all the time uh the buildings pop up. Buildings don't pop up. Somebody worked on this for two years, three years, four years sometimes till you got the approvals till till till till till till till till every detail was was designed. So you know it's a process. Everything is a process. >> Yeah. Look at this building. wasn't designed for what it's being used now. And it it has a lot of challenges because of it. >> But it has challenges, but a good designer should be able to take most of the challenge and try to and try to work on it. That's that's part of the creative designer and try to figure out what to do with it. >> Got it. Final question. >> Yeah. >> Looking back, you you started, you build it, you went on a on a long journey. If you have to give advice for your kids now starting out, what would you what would you tell them >> kids? [laughter] My kids are not sure. My kids is a different different question. >> Not your kids. Not your kids. If you're speaking to to to young people, >> I actually have one daughter working for us. So, uh, >> if you if you speak to young people starting out, what do you think is important that you learned in hindsight, which a lot of things you're going to learn that by trying and failing, but I think people appreciate making less mistakes by listening to other people. I >> I would say a few things. First of all, understand your strength and understand your weaknesses. I I think it's a very big identifying it is very very it's a very important thing. >> Get comfortable with it. >> Get comfortable with yourself. You know who you are just because you know it doesn't just because you're not good in in management or not or just because you're not creative necessarily doesn't mean you can't run a business doesn't mean you can't you can't be successful. It doesn't it also doesn't mean you're a bad person. I I've had people like ask me how do I do this? The guy thinks that I'm a bad guy because I can't I can't give help. You're not a bad guy. You're a good guy. You just you don't know how to do it. So understand who you are, get comfortable with yourself, understand your vulnerabilities. That's number one. Number two, I think is is identifying who is strong in what. You know, you identify this person is strong, this person could help me, and this person could and you communicate with that person. You have to be able to communicate openly. If you don't, if you're not honest with yourself, you don't communicate 100%. Then I think uh um you'll have a you'll have a you have to trust that person. Also, you have to trust a person that a person knows how to do things better than you. And the the the third thing is really putting in processes into motion which is really understanding that a process is something which is going to once you put it in for the most part it has to be adjusted always and it has to be tweaked but the process runs the process is what's what's uh causing it and the process is what changes it from a from a passion to a business. I think that's the big the big difference. So you ask me what I would do different um if I would start all over again. I I I think the processes I would think about the processes earlier even though I don't think I'll be a I would have been able to get to the processes because I think that still would have been a struggle but appreciating it understanding that without the processes you're not going to get anywhere. I think that's the most important thing. You have to first acknowledge it. Once you acknowledge it I think you you'll be better off. So acknowledging that process is what helps you. >> Yeah. I think in the in the beginning of a of a business right in the beginning it's probably not the right time for process. It takes it takes like it takes a few months or or two years until you figure out for yourself what you should be doing. Then you start putting things into a process. It's too early. >> Yeah. But you have you have to know that you're going to go in and and start creating process. >> You can work for a year in a Google sheet or in a Microsoft Access and until you figure out how to do things and then say, "Okay, now that I know what I want my processes to be, let me start putting things into more proper systems." You wouldn't know in the beginning before your wife joined or even after she joined the first year probably she was trying to figure out herself. Okay. So how do we do takeoffs? How do we >> So I think like putting in a smart sheet is also a process. It's a much more elementary um you know but it's still a process. >> Still a process. >> Still a process. Guess what? Writing down a small little pieces of paper is also a process. It's not a good process but it's a process. So you know >> so acknowledging that processes are important. >> At one point I had so much in my head that were not on small little pieces of paper because I didn't have the time to write it down. I used to sit down sometimes in the morning I make myself a list. I used to write down p check check check check right that's also a process. Is it a good process? No because nobody knows how to find your little papers you know and if you know but it's still a process. I sometimes still find my little papers you know here and there. You know I'll tell you a quick little story. My father once got uh uh you know he all I'm one of five brothers and uh everybody has sudden and my he says okay all your sudum I'm shipping it to you my father took a bunch of sudum and he shipped it to everybody so I remember he shipped me a whole box of um and I opened up so I remember I think learned invion I opened it up and there's a bunch of pictures of houses in the back and the gillion in this back of papers I was sketching And you know I was 10 years old maybe but I was sketching houses over there you know why am I telling student okay [laughter] >> well that's interest how it started yeah didn't it didn't start there but uh everything start yeah 505 B Avenue >> Wow [snorts] it started I I tell you a quick cute story when I was uh my sister and I when we we lived in a heart mill in Williamsburg and uh >> corner it's Bedford foot corner us. No, >> no, no, no, no. We lived on 190 Ross, which first we moved later on. Moved moved twice before we before my my parents live in Barb. >> My grandfather lived Bedford Ross. >> Bedford and Ross. That's next to the Londo. >> Continental. >> Continental. Oh, that's your grandfather. >> Yeah. >> Volondo. >> Hessel. >> Helon. Uh >> I'll tell you in a minute afterwards. Okay. >> But um so we lived on Williams. We got in 190 Ros and uh the apartment the the building had five apartments on the floor and we used to say this is crazy all the enters are sitting in the hallway. We have to go down from the fourth floor and everybody's sitting in Williamsburg but that's how it was. People lived in the hallways was the houses were the apartments were small. Yeah. Okay. Okay. The apartments were small and the hallway that's where they shmeed and and he said this is ridiculous. I I was eight or nine years old and he said our laundry room in our house is backtoback with the elevator. There's no reason why we can't have a direct access to the elevator. So my sister and I, my older sister, we we we we spoke about it and said, "You know what, Tatim are going to go to one day and they went to we had a babysitter. We locked ourselves into the laundry room. We locked the door. We pushed and we had a babysitter, a girl, and we started cutting open the sheet and we with a hammer took my father's toolbox and in and and she was never trying to open the door. He was screaming and then we were banging away busy. >> We we opened up a whole >> probably 2 feet by 4 feet of sheetrock and we started we hit a brick wall, red brick wall. We started chipping away to the brick. We're opening a door to the to the elevator. It's we're having a door to elevator directly and we were chiseling away and all of a sudden I hear banging and we didn't open up. All of a sudden my father somehow was able to open up the door and I I remember I still have this vision. My father opens the door and he's standing there and he turned white like my sister and I are sitting there in pajamas and we're connecting away 10 o'clock at night whatever it was and we're opening what are you doing is we're opening a door to the toga you're crazy opening a door to the the elevator there's no there's no door in the car you're going to has to be a way to do this and we wanted to surprise you and it was like the craziest thing I remember my father was a let's call him a sport and uh I said okay fine you I'm let you know for a couple of days you guys could you're not going to touch the brick and clap. We had a great time for a few days and the shera but he clapped the magazette and then he came in one day and he himself remember he bought panels and she and he fixed it says okay at that's it but the the the the creative >> should be on your website >> should have a website the creative part was there because I was looking for something we had to go we have a we have we have a solution we have a we have a problem the problem is we have to go from our door down to to building we have to pass past pass the hallway pass the stairs we don't want the antmeezing the smell from skiggle themeck from I don't need it and all of a sudden like we have a solution we're gonna put a door directly in here okay that was a little bit uh [laughter] >> okay okay thanks for your time maybe you spoke too