The What It Takes Podcast ep 15: Brutal Truth About Being A Creative Dir ft Sam Ash

Ken Fisher is what is the kind of person I want to be when I grow up? Even though he's younger than me. >> No, you don't want to wear that. >> It messes up my hair. >> You don't have >> I Oh god. No. Are you sure? No. >> Oh my god. When I left with a ch I You get into this part of town, everything goes. I'm left West Hills with a chup. I have better hair than him. I have like a coma. I look like Adolf Hitler. A little thing here. You better kick you. I get here. Garnet. I'm telling you. They say my people taking over. >> Roco, >> lick him. Lick him. Roco, lick him. >> Now you make a bra. He still plays shabas. He doesn't have meat before. So >> I'm not going to say who the client is. I had a client who had a mag come four times a week. >> Okay. >> And I was working on site and I used to bring him because I had a friend who was a special needs kid in Burough Park who like Brock. These dogs are amazing intuitively. They're very good. They sense it. So the market chair comes over me one day and rockless all day in my office comes over he goes down can glutton I go why not everyone you know comes over get my go come back for a couple days later come in couple couple days he come back goes next he get to I used to walk him I go he's walking he asked me you know couple I'm in a lane market I said open leash >> take him for a walk >> yeah open leash yeah and then no problem and He he started walking rock and a couple of days. I said, "Oh, let me get you a picture." He goes, "Oh, no, no. Why?" He goes, "My my >> turned out he was in UTA over there. Dog's a suit." >> He says, "They learn he's younger than me." He's like I'm He's probably in his 50s or he goes, "They taught us a dog is a suit." There's an Sutin. >> So, you know what's fascinating? And I'll go back falling down steps because when they fall it's like a black in my I'm sorry just you can't get that image out of your head now right the rest of the day every time you go like a domino every time you see steps then the >> we just lost the whole tell about what the whole Catholic audience >> that's it no nuns are going to watch >> Welcome back to another episode of the What It Takes podcast where we interview people who did what it takes and have incredible stories to share to help you learn how you can take it next level in your career. Today on our today's guest is a marketing and brand powerhouse. You may know him as the creative mind behind campaigns for Polaroid, Brother Zinc, Arf Pets, and other iconic brands. He's a strategist. >> Are we allowed to say HBO? We shouldn't. >> We could say HBO. >> HBO. >> HBO as well. He's a strategist, a storyteller, and someone who understands that today's consumers don't want to think and they want to feel. His name is Schlloy or Schlommo or Sam Ash, not the music store. And that's literally his private email address. And in this episode, we're diving into how he's turned creativity, data, and a little bit of humor into marketing campaigns that actually work, how he spots opportunities that other people miss, and the lessons he's learned from being over for being in the industry for over 25 years. >> Yeah. >> Welcome to the podcast. Okay, first of all, remind me you get a new private email when this is over. Um, that aside, >> his email address is not the music [email protected]. You ever heard of Sam Ash? >> Sure. >> Yeah, they're not business anymore. >> I outlasted them, even though they sued me, but that's for another time. Um, I don't know who you introduced there, but that guy was really imp. I just write stuff and I just like figure out like, wow, people are paying me to do this, you know. God bless. when the person who introduced us was our previous guest, Aaron Zutler from Pop Insanity. >> Now, he's the real deal. >> Here's my question. When he was describing you and then he sent me uh a link to some of your work, I would have thought of you as a very very good copywriter, but then I saw over your career doing some research before the episode, I saw your creative director. >> Interesting. >> I'm a writer. I I started out as a writer. Anybody you start out as a writer, you you you you inherently get into the strategy because you have to understand what you're writing about. You have to understand how the strategy got there. I had the added plus or minus I look at have coming from from yeshiva background. So you know gamar everything becomes gammorus. >> You don't see video editors who are also creatives becoming creative directors. No, >> you don't see >> I don't think I I think nothing nothing against >> nothing against No, but in general like the different um levels of creativity. >> No, because we get the >> graphic designers don't >> No, no, they do. A lot. Yes. A lot of you know because we get both writers and art directors get involved on you know in the beginning of the process. Video guys get involved. It's already you know this there's something there to shoot. We get involved a lot of times when it's a prototype, >> right? when it's an idea on a page, what are you going to name this? Well, who you know, we get involved very often in the abstract, >> right? >> Years ago, and I'm going to date myself with this, but I don't care. Brother launched something called a pouch labeling machine. >> Brother, the printing company. Okay. >> Yes. I the brother pouch, which is label. I launched that for them. I literally my son >> worked for an agency. You worked >> a I was brothers at I was at that point I was the writer of brother's agency, but they gave that to me because I was the geek and this was a whole new product. This was a $100 labeler, but until then, labelers were $10. >> It was a dozen, but >> and my my son, my middle son, Ellie, was born at four in the morning. At seven in the morning, I was on the set. >> To shoot the commercial and I had to be there because I wrote the commercial. What? >> Your wife killed you. >> She was killing me during labor and I kept asking the doctor, "Do you think we'll be done by six?" because I got to be the set. And my my boss literally this is before this is before cell phones were really a thing and you know every call is a dollar a minute and my but my boss has kept me on the phone put a man to phone the doctor I want you know like Bob you know but she kid was born at four I was there now every and the commercial >> was you know created a category of by targeting people who would spend $100 on a label because we didn't sell we sold >> say my I have to explain how we got there because it all ties. >> Um when we presented the Japanese >> very big on technology, right? They're very big on on how it does it a lot of times more than what it does, >> right? The Walkman was the footprint, the smallness or the sound, right? It wasn't right. You know, how they got to the engineering. Um Americans were too lazy. We like we like what's the benefit. And so when the Japanese came out with pouch, the brief we got was all about the rationale why it's 100 because the labels last forever, which they do. I have a mail, one in my mailbox for 30 years. It's fine, >> right? >> 30 years. It's my winters, summers, everything says hnok. >> They were right because it's laminated. The old style labels, the embossed ones. He's fine. The old >> No, I love him. >> The old style. >> I want to put him on my lap, but he wouldn't. >> No, he's you know the old style. We're talking about my dog Rocky, by the way, who you know, he's going to be interviewed soon. Stay tuned. Um he's speaking about Roy Kell of the plus and minuses. Um, so when we presented pouch, we had this based on this Japanese thing of the laminate, you know, that was the whole thing. >> We had just moved here to Muny and I took home machine and I started labeling because our fuse box, nothing was labeled and I realized because it makes everything >> he touches the little >> the labeler the white and I realized, wow, this is a really cool thing, you know, looks good. It looks and it became addictive. And when we walked in to present, they were expecting something about technology and how it prints underneath and and I walked in and I said my father I said my father's a contractor before that he was in the Holocaust. This was my presentation and he was he you know and despite that now remember it's all Japanese. I'm talking about the Germans you know that was a long time ago. Pearl Harbor were cool. Um, we went out, you know, and I said, "But he used to buy, but he he buys German tools like Bosch because people say, "Why why are you buying a German drill, Joe? Why you buying Bosch? You can get more." And he goes, "Okay, >> and I said in English, >> you need to do uh English subtitles, >> right?" So, um, the translation, which I translate to Japanese as well, was, "I'm not buying the drill, I'm buying the holes." >> Right? >> And I said, "The mistake we're making here is we're not selling the technology. We were selling the labels, >> right? >> And I showed him the commercial idea, which was a guy in a psychiatrist couch talking to his psychologist about how obsessed he is with labeling everything, >> right? >> And he had to despise his doctor have to help him with his problem. And he turns to the doctor and the doctor's covered in labels. Goes, "What problem?" And he did very again and I say this Aaron Zucker turned me on to this every day. You know you read you start looking back at the things that happened in your life and you realize like I wish I understood this then because you know I was paying my this commercial bro did very well but it did yeah and I wrote it I came up with it and I distract you know but at the end of the day it's like I have no right you know like you look at my background there's nothing that says I should be doing commercials you know that ended up being on America's funniest commercial and ends up creating a category electronic labeling >> was created by the brother pouch right by people seeing this and it resonated with them because they got it it was But I shouldn't have been there. I, you know, it's like that's why I I never took anybody seriously. Took me seriously because I, you know, host because I I know I'm a clown. Fact, I'm fooling you. That's on you, dude. Like I said, have this the Japanese are very big on protocol. >> Did you act like this at work? >> Yes. >> Sorry, I didn't act. >> I'm not acting. This is me. >> This is you. Did you put on a professional front? >> Nope. >> I'm the creative side. So I have I have lead. >> You're allowed to. >> But when I first met before when I saw >> day one you went up for a job interview. You spoke >> my first You see again you want to I got my first job there used to be company called CBS records record club 10 records for a penny when they still had records and CDs you know back in the day. >> I got a job there because I used to hang out with Morgan K and David and Shia Menlitz and they had an office on Cand Avenue. I go back with Chia since elementary since elementary school and I took that and I turned that into a music marketing experience and I saw a job for a temp, you know, at a at Columbia Records. So, I had to go to this temp agency. >> How do you feel like working for in an orange Jewish company? I feel like back in the day was way more common than it is today. >> You have the opportunity to work in a firm company. >> No, they weren't firm. I I wanted to do it for real, >> right? That's what I thought like you know but I walked in I walked into this temp agency to give you a typing test on those days it was mammish typewriter >> right >> I I Steve >> how long ago was this >> 1987 80 about 81 82 >> yeah early early 40 years ago >> yeah I'm not funding the money CBS so I don't care what >> I couldn't I type like Stevie Wonder blind person um so when now these when you take the typing test they give you a run through round like you can just get familiar >> and I looked around there was some papers some people had to run through rounds said looked at the one that seemed to be the best and I handed that in then they said okay go and I and when she wasn't looking I pulled it out switched it with that one gab >> did you really do that >> what were you like in elementary school troublemaker >> it's very different I I was in elementary school with a fry waxman who you know >> really >> yeah I and I was >> Were you a troublemaker then class clown or were you studious guy >> no I wasn't good in sports I just >> not sports when it comes Sports I would made you in elementary school, >> right? >> I sucked at sports and I was, you know, I always read. I was into pop culture and reading. I went ashes. I went to >> more of an introvert. >> I was overt. >> Aver not overt, not intro, just I did my own thing. I was perfectly happy. >> Really? How did this personality come out? >> What personality? >> The the funny the filter. >> Anger inward is depression. Anger outward is with I'm like anger sideways. So take away but the um the I got that's how I got family with Chia men and that's what I'm saying I got in elementary school because he couldn't play punch ball either. So we started talking Jewish music we both like Jewish music and that over the years about then I got into electronics and because I like music I got into electronics and photography in high school. I used to hang out in focus electronics in Burough Park. >> Really? >> Yeah. My my big Yeah. My my big kamoy trip was going to be peerless camera store in the city. Okay. >> And hanging out there. That was so when I started when I decided I wanted to go into this thing called advertising. >> Yeah. >> Which when I again this is you know this is how because it comes up like how you know I didn't go to school for this. I got very hashem sent you know sent a lot of very patient people to me but when I was eight years old my my father was to give me a lift to school and there was a aftershave brand called Brute >> right >> which was terrible but it was by Fabra so people thought it was good but so Brute you know you know you knew it because a kid you know but I I hear a commercial with Battlefield I'm 8 years old you're in the car you hear you hear a war you know you're pay attention >> and the guys start talking about it being a battlefield is your cologne like a b you wear one shampoo, one deodorant to one and I'm listening Barut makes everything so you can have one smell, right? So I'm eight years old and I remember this vividly that I and I spoke to the guy who was at the agency. He's trying to track down the commercial for me. Yeah, he couldn't. But >> but >> I remember vividly at 8 years old saying I I get that. >> I get that's an idea, right? It's not just, you know, at that point, you know, there was a lot of great commercials, but that one had a had a message because I thought I wrote that I thought about, you know, a medicine, you know, my my father Old Spice and you write, you know, wow, >> everything one fragrance. >> Yes. And that stuck with me. And then years later, >> I remember Brute. >> Why? I remember Brute. >> I started paying attention when I got older because I always like writing. I I this when I was in when I started college there's a thing called Johnson O' Conor. It's an aptitude test. Aptitude is a hushim you're born for. Not that you learn, right? >> So Johnson Oconor to build their metrics is giving it for free to all incoming freshmen of Brooklyn College. It's like a $2,000 test. Corporate America uses it. They're still around. >> And it's saying based on your aptitude, this is what you'll be and enjoy doing. >> I took it because it's free. >> And you're Jewish. >> I am. Okay. Sorry. That's why the nun joke probably worked. Um, I went ahead, I took the test and my parents were because they, you know, at that point I was going to be a dentist, a lawyer, whatever. And I took the test and it said came back journalism or writing >> really >> and I never saw the results again. How do they know for give a kick up the name Johnson Okconor? They don't know Jews. Journalist. What's a journalist? A Jew. When did you make it >> in in career? Yeah. When did you feel like you made it? >> I never feel like I make it. >> When did your parents >> No, they never did. >> They never felt like you made it that you were now No, >> now you do cons my when I showed my father that my first commercial that was all mine because I when I was a junior writer, I was involved in commercials for Hasbro, but this was all mine, >> right? >> I showed it to my father >> because my son was born. We were staying by my parents because my mom uses his burough park. remember and my father's like you know I was showing him the rough cut because that's how you did because when you shoot on film which we did you had to pick your takes right you and then those you transfer it was a process I'm showing my father and my father goes I said it's like 27 seconds because you put available >> he didn't get it >> didn't get and advertising he he built he was bar park's first high-end contractor never had a sign in front any of his houses. He did all the first generation. >> Were they Did you grow up wealthy? >> Um to find wealthy. No, I mean not. No. >> You knew that your parents had >> No, I had to shoplift to get it was you know you have to wear a big coat and whatever. >> Wasn't easy especially in butcher shops. But on stake you do what you have. No. No. My father worked for a lot of Jews but you couldn't tell. >> This was a survivor generation. Right. Right. Yin yin flaunted. >> Um, now you're doing consulting >> or W freelance. >> Um, yes. >> What um what's the most amount of money you made as a W2 >> in a year? >> Okay, I'm going to sound like a real idiot now. You have to ask my wife. >> I don't know. >> Did you ever negotiate salaries when the companies were looking to hire you? >> No, I have Hashem realized I'm an idiot and he b Hashem. No, I have I mean I have a pricing thing, a project thing >> now as a freelancer. when you worked for >> when I worked for a company >> or agencies >> my I worked with well when I was at Hasbro's agency I was a junior so there was a scale and raise and review when I switched to brother agency where I was at for 20 some odd years >> I had an amazing boss he understood we you know we were the we weren't an expense we you know we were an investment >> and you know so he just made sure I was happy because nish is all you need at certain points in my life I was going through rough spells on personal things financially related and he literally bailed me out. >> Wow. >> You know, >> and it was he came to me and there was like and um did I tell you the twin story or >> so that's who he was. He understood that we were that nephesh >> right >> in his creative department m he used to tell me this people in my department he goes if anyone you know give me a heads up if they're worth it you know I had a story with my house where we after we had our twins we thought we sold a house we didn't people for a year we went to contract on in October after him he called me to shab to back out for a whole year and we had another house on the line said I end up in the hospital with chest pain don't ask when my boss knew he was going because he spotted me as a down payment for this other house we were going to buy. >> Wow. >> And I told him what's going on. He says, "Okay, when it works out, don't worry about it." And I gave back obviously, you know, but >> Right. >> He understood he understood that it's just, you know, you got to keep, you know, it's like, you know, it's like you have a farm, you keep your cows healthy, >> right? >> In agency. So um the the problem today not problem is the wrong word the challenge today is a lot of from pe a lot of from people they don't look at what people like myself do as an investment were an expense they'd rather not >> and I noticed my father was almost the same I couldn't I was I offered free signs for him for his jobs he never wanted it every other pitcher who got a license by the way getting construction license you know like really you can be in a wheelchair deaf and get one apparently but my my father was legit and he he wouldn't be in you know fair whoever needs to know they'll know >> right >> and you walked in some of the houses he made some real dever you couldn't tell from the outside >> wow >> they weren't you know I couldn't tell by their cars there was one guy we do with we found out he was nephew own 400 apartments in the city and used I see him on the train in the morning and he used to brag to me about the briefcase he got from his bank for free >> different world they they didn't have to make a point >> right >> to today. It's a different >> those people's kids feel like they need to make a point. Those kids >> because they're living because they're living in the shadow, right? >> That's why, you know, that's why I said the best thing I did for my kid was never being home. >> Don't say that. >> No, I I I don't advise it today. >> Parents should be home. >> It's a different world today. And I talk to my wife all the time how we would, you know, the internet was just starting and we had filters at home. We had a system at home where every night I got a print out of everything that was done on the kids computers, >> right? Right. But today with the kids, it wasn't like today where screen, you know, where devices >> and look, my my grandson's going to be prime minister in two weeks. He still doesn't have a smartphone. >> They don't need it till they don't need a smartphone. >> He's in Yavna, which isn't, you know, school, right? >> It's But but my my son and daughter-in-law doesn't need it. >> Doesn't need it. I think kids should get phones just calling, not even text. When >> I think kids should get pay phones, >> pay and then allowance. So use up their allowance. That's it. Yes. >> No, not going to pay for them. >> But um the but I my wife and I talk about we thank God that you know we're not raising kids today because the challenges he hear challenges are we have five boys and Barashem the metric for for today is all your kids are talking to you. You're okay. >> Right. And Barash all my kids talk to me or make believe it. No. No. But the the the but when they were growing up I was never home. I worked full-time. I was an agency creative director. We had real, you know, it was a 50 60 million $75 million agency depending. We got real, you know, >> agency. >> Yes. On my own, I was doing my own things. I did like the homeack. I did the Buzz. I did Hamish accounts, which my boss loved because it got us into other places. I used to walk into like, you know, commercial place. There's always some from guy says, "Oh, I heard you on." There was one day it was a couple not for like couple of years I did Howard Stern show in the morning for his birthday because >> isn't he west coast? No, he was national. He was on now he's on. He was always New York, you know, East Coast base. On the morning I was on his birthday show on on 923 Krock. At night I was on Seagull for the homo and the buzz beagle, you know, >> that that was and this happened more than once. So I was like that >> but that dichotomy between that and everything else I I wasn't you know >> I should I should have would have could have been not could I should have would have been home more but but I always made but what bash did my kids benefited from mother ways you know they used to be able to walk into the buzz and pick out anything they wanted for khan >> right >> you know we used to you know I used you know for the bar mitzvah my liquor clients you know like not just the liquor but other you know it was kids you So the gotchi is they did and quite frankly you see what I'm like it's probably better I wasn't around my kids like you know things like restraining orders come up but there was one point where my my somebody in one of my kids schools really thought we were separated I never showed up to anything. >> Oh my gosh. >> I I I I don't understand. I I bathe my kids almost every single day. >> I bathe my kids and put them to bed almost every single day. >> I >> supper homework. >> Okay. I I realized I had to work also. I was from I only took off my ammo once. >> Why? >> Why did I take it off that one time? Or why >> when I when I when I was looking for a job, my karus and yes had a cousin who was a BBDNO which was Pepsi, you know, BBDNO like BBN one the big you know now they're all >> creative agencies. Okay. >> Yeah. BB knows Apple Pepsi. Okay. >> I had a cousin who worked on accounts. He got me an interview. >> I I had a starter portfolio. The guy who did it for me did go to Pratt. So it it was presentable, but I I you know, >> I walked in wearing a blue pinstripe suit, a red tie, white shirt. Pretty much how he was dressed. I think I was wearing black shoes. He was wearing my penny lovers. Otherwise, I was wearing a yam. No, blame black leather. Now >> now I go with stuff like this. Content's under pressure. I have a whole bunch. Made in Japan contents under pressure, you know, because it's cool. People like it with their name. I don't want people to know my name. Let them see. For the people listening and not watching, he's talking about his couple >> or yarmoka depending where you depending where you're listening. I'll just subtitle in nonaredish [laughter] in English or those. Okay. So, yes, I'm wearing a couple. No. Anyway, but I went ahead and I uh I I'm sitting across from this guy who he you know he also had a Jewish last more Jewish last name than Ash. >> I'm sitting across from him and he basically looks at me. He looks at the work. He says he could see, you know, but he says somebody who looks the way you do is going to have a problem in this business, right? And I'm like, am I fat? I I I was so dense. I was remember I was I I went to yeshiva during the day. I went to college at Brooklyn College at night. I was name during day by girls, you know, that was my world. And I grew up in Bor Park. I I whatever I knew about pop culture, I knew it was Kalakad. And here we are. and he disguises and then it dawned on me it's the ama >> right >> and I and I said at that point look I I'm I'm going to whatever I'm going to give up for this it's not I'm not I'm not moving on that >> right >> and I and over and I gave up with kids you know all but I I only took up my ama once for pittney bows which is >> pitney bows huh >> pitney bows we we launched their a division for them >> very cool >> and I present when I went and present the first time I didn't wear my >> right >> because it was pittney bows Connecticut A and we got the account. The second meeting we came back start took the idea and the head guy come pulls me over and he goes Sam and he literally points to he wasn't Jew. He goes what's that? I said wait goes were you wearing that last time? Like he was >> he made a comment. >> And I said and I said no. Said you forget I said no. I said, I don't, you know, I said the first, I said, it's like the first date, you know. I found some people judge you by it >> as opposed to I like being judged by what's underneath it. It's, you know, it's it's >> it's who I am more than what I, you know, I really, he got the message, though, you know, right? >> Because there's a whole routine on Mel Brooks has an album 2000-y old man has a whole dream about Connecticut, Connecticut. It's about wasps and Jews. He goes, "Oh, he's from Connecticut." And it's an inside joke in the 60s. So, I just kind of pivoted to that because it changed the subject, but he got the message. And then we were doing these commercials for them, but we shot in Seattle. And he was the one that called me a dozen times to make sure everything was covered with my kosher poop. >> Wow. >> He was the one that he just because he was, you know, then when we got friendly and I explained to him he, you know, he took it he took it to heart and he, you know, when we shot in Seattle, you ever hear of the television show Cheers? >> No. >> It was very popular. So one of the characters is a mailman. So we hired him for Pittney Bose >> because obvious reasons >> and >> for those people for those people who don't know what Pittney Bose is they are a mailing >> they any if you see a postage meter and it's an amazing business model they have because you don't buy post you have to rent it from them because they rent it from the government. >> So we launched a home for small business because that was the target because people were pivoting. >> So we we shot I got >> mailing machines. Yeah. People will mail out hundreds of thousands of pieces of mail every single day. You run an envelope through the machine, it puts a stamp on it stack. Yeah. Or and you put a message. So when we got this guy, John Ratzenberger, >> I was in touch with him and he was very helpful because he was getting into directing, whatever. >> And then at one point I said, so you know, it was like a month before, six weeks before. I said, "So where do you want to stay in the Marriott or or the um downtown the inter?" And he goes, "I thought you guys are coming here, >> right?" And >> I thought he was joking. We're paying him 250 grand for a week's worth of work. something 150 250 don't hold me to the number >> $1,000 >> 150 or 250 don't hold me to the number with like a long >> over $100,000 >> yes for a week's worth of work >> plus all expenses and he he's saying oh and I and he know what he told me says I did cheers for 10 years I don't like traveling I miss my family he basically said he had a family and because he was shooting in LA lived in Seattle >> I go to Pittney Bose and I said we got a problem we because it was so close to a shoot he couldn't get good everyone good is booked and we gave him the number >> and they said okay >> here's what it is when I got he was ready to walk and he wasn't being a jerk he says use the guy from Seinfeld use the mailman guy from Seinfeld >> I hope you're enjoying today's podcast today's episode is sponsored by Blackbird Recruiting >> Chad GPT what do you think about Blackbird Recruiting >> Blackbird Recruiting the team that finds you the right people so you can stop wasting time on resumes that look like they were written by someone's dog If you're a business owner struggling to find top talent, let Blackbird do the heavy lifting. They'll help you find candidates who actually get it. Visit blackbirdrecruiting.com and let them take your hiring game to new heights. >> You heard it here first. Enjoy the rest of the episode. >> Just for reference of the people watching, you can't see this under the table. The dog Rocco laid down. I did not realize that it's not the carpet for a second. He's trying to tell me the dog needs a haircut. I was He's getting one before a Yontiff. I'm making it into a winter stry. Okay. Okay. We just took a dog break. I'm sorry. We're back slate. Take two. >> I I'm sitting with He used to keep me company for dinner because I had my kosher meals at the hotel. >> Okay. >> And we were talking about the whole thing with a mixup with No. And I said, "Let me ask you a question. How much money does one need to turn down 150 grand per week's worth of work, all expenses paid? How much? What's I know >> how much do you need to have in the bank?" >> You know what he told me? Sam, it's not a number. It's so we'll change your life. >> Right? >> Said there's no number, dude. He goes, "Shang God Cheers worked very well." And he was doing Toy Story then. He just started Toy Story. And he said, "It wasn't going to change my life. Missing my kids would, >> right?" >> I said, and I and I and I heard this. I said, "You're not Jewish, are you?" >> Okay, I'll talk. Let's let's try to knock this out. Yeah. >> Another five or 10 minutes. This I have a recruiting agency called Blackbird Recruiting. >> We'll talk about that later. >> Um, and it's not about me, it's about you. But I started this podcast as a tool to help people learn how they can level up their careers. >> You've worked in agent creative agencies. You've worked from the clients. >> You want stuff to help your to help the hirers or the >> hire the employees. If someone wants to build a career in creative, >> can I be honest? >> Yeah. Don't say don't do it. Uh >> no. I building career in first what passes for creative today. >> How much could someone make? do like looking back at your like you know >> I I've been found there are from sites there's a guy schmilting thing called BAM which is like a favor he I know him for years a very sweet guy how much people make a lot a lot more money doing what I do there's people very mak there yel >> yiddishelt in in our world >> but you didn't really work no specifically in the Jewish market >> no but but I but I was like the go-to guy like when heshy beagelizing who owned the buzz launched gia which is now the number one air fryer brand in the country. I spent three days with him in the city, you know, concepting. I came up with the name, the branding, that kind that kind of stuff. Okay, Rocky got the interview. I'll sit it out now. No, it's okay. Like, I'm having it. >> You got pictures of this. This is cool. No, but I guys like Heshi. >> Yeah. >> That's why I I know him since he had Eagle and Burough Park because we're kind of cut saying he his vision was never limited to 13th Avenue or Avenue J. His vision was always and even when he started and I heard this from people in the media who spoke to him and they saw he had engineering degrees well he knew about product >> really >> it was he most of and that's that's what's missing today everything today the this whole AI algorithms SEO that's designed to prevent a brand from happening because the the platforms like Amazon don't want a brand they want to be the king of the hill if you're a brand and that's why the guys at CNA were smart years ago and they got Polaroid because they realize this um you know this the CNDA right they realize that only Amazon is the future >> but the real future is to own a name >> right brand >> right like it's like difference between getting an apartment in a good neighborhood and buying a house there >> right >> right and Kim Fisher also with Sterling these guys realize he built his name on shop NBC migrating to Amazon you know this learning but but if you have a name Amazon doesn't sit there from anybody but they think twice if you're a game and studies have been done. There's a lot less brands that have come to market since you know the Amazons of the world and and the reason I became the go-to guy because I was I'm that old. I was there when Staples started and and the superstore started and and I remember back then it was saying who needs an office supply store, >> right? >> Who who needs 50 printers? Whatever. >> Are they still going to be around in 10 years? Staples every time I walk into the store it's more and more empty. It's not, you know, >> the the PL the the vertical will be around will be around is a physical I probably a lot less locations. I see I see it going like popup. I see like supermarkets or you know whatever whatever platform still demands a a tactile retail presence, right? >> I see Staples opening popups there. >> But the the the do I think the plat I but that was there when these stores started, >> right? >> And and now remember it's like I understood like Sam Ash, you know, a music store needed its own thing. >> Did you ever work with them? >> They sued me, but they >> I guess not. >> No, no, I I knew them from trade shows, >> right? >> But one year I got a lawsuit with Illusion of Trademarks. My website is also not the music store. >> Oh, >> and but it was a nuisance suit. >> How was the the SEO on it? >> Non-existent. >> I I I'm I'm at a weird point. Either people see my stuff, they don't believe I did it because I'm a guy from Bark. how to get to HBO and all this stuff. >> Aaron once told me a story. I don't know if he told you. He when he mentioned my name somebody thought it was a Baltua. >> That guy can't be from >> where Bach did you grow up? >> 5 My mother still was 52nd 14th and 15th >> 47 15th and 16th. >> There's a big sign last for five miles. [snorts] You know on Pes she has a big sign we have the Brooks you know >> that's not true. >> No it's not. But she refused to put up the sign going a lot to Bethl. >> Huh? Oh, Ben see him. He was a buddy. He was I just saw him last summer, >> right? >> Ben >> Shulam Leur is now gonna be um >> really >> I don't think I think Russ >> so Benian my kids we had in this home hotel and Ben was invited as a guest. My father was show like you can have him mused >> so next thing I know Ben comes over and he goes my father's like a he's a partisan kills first Nazi at 14. He didn't argue with him. >> He killed a Nazi at 14. He >> was a Bellski partisan. Yeah. >> He walks over to me. He goes, "Your father came over and told me I'm adopting Musf. I'm not telling him no." [laughter] >> Like he knew my father from Barb, you know, around, >> right? >> And I told him, "Okay, but I said, but do me a favor. This it's my, you know, so was he Musf did like two seconds of >> and plow through Musf >> and you know, my father was happy. I've been seen, you know, but but Benin was he's he was a special person. And he was you know his father also right above Ben is also an expert in shing venison >> really used to go up to music on yes deer he's called on the way back he always stop and drops some off >> really yeah what does it taste like it's good >> it's kind of like ve with an attitude >> I'm serious that is isn't venison ve >> no >> what's ve >> ve is like calf or something >> I thought ve is deer venison >> no interesting >> no venison is they're both similar because it's a muscular it's a gier meat eat. But it was more honestly to to me it was more about saying, "Oh my god, you know, >> it's cool." >> Yeah. Like um my kids are like foodies. To me it's like well to to me it's all packaging. >> You know it's like after I go out these these these nicer places I can't have steak. I can make that at home. I'll have six appetizers and and the >> right >> because all these places hang their hats on the steak. Right. >> Higher side's cool. you know, some places, you know, overall I I I I I'm the guy who who's supposed to make you drop all the money on on that. >> Before we finish, I want to ask you two questions. >> If Tuesday, >> um >> this ain't going to make it on the air. I see you already. >> This is just like a personal fun. >> The first question is if someone um if someone wants to get into a career in creative, wants to build a career in creative, where should they start in the front belt? Whoever will take him, >> whoever just take a job even for free as an intern. >> Honestly, yeah. I started I I this the only thing I got from this guy be do you know I got the advice because we were talking so I was into electronics. He goes look if you're going to go up against other everyone's coming in package good portfolios which I had I had like toothp like electronics niche yourself. >> Right. That was the only thing and and that was my only takeaway of that Yamaka and I I I did like electronics and I walked out and I and I my after the CBS Columbia Record Club I ended up in PC magazine if Davis Publishing because it was the start of computer revolution. For those of you that know anything about computers, my first ad had the word 8 megahertz and blazing fast in the same sentence. Now my nickel $6 Casio watch is faster than that. Right. >> I was there being >> I was there I remember when they brought Windows in 60 discs when they brought to demo Windows and Davis but I at that point I I niche yourself. So if you can niche yourself you can if you want to get into this you have to be able to not just talk to talk. You have to be able to walk to walk. You can say oh I like watches I like this. I like food. But you have to walk in with a depth of knowledge that can be conversant in it that shows whoever you can bring something to the table. I'm not just saying no. And that's the other problem with today. Today people consider them a maven an expert because we give a thumbs up on somebody's social media. >> Right. >> Right. That makes you a maven to when we want to become a we have to like Harvard. You want to get into jazz. We have to listen to jazz. You want to get into drums. You have to listen to Steve. You have to gadle. But you know today you want to say you're into jazz. You click on some schmetric thing and showing you're into. So the level of histadus is non-existent, >> right? And that gets compounded by all the stuff people think AI and SEO, those are tools. They're not talent. And people start, thank God, people starting to realize that that that AI is it's a great tool, but there's a is it is it? No. It'll take all the out there and and give you something that's that's a a composite, but it's not going to give you a thoroughly original. It can't, >> right? >> Can God still gave that to us, right? Right. And no back seats, >> right? >> But it's level to to to be to take from there. >> I I can still see when somebody send me an AI letter. >> For sure. >> I can still see every time it gets to me. >> Um my second question is >> Oh, you remember the second one. He doesn't have ADD. >> Um >> I was trying to >> first read these ads that we ran. I'll tell you what was the concept behind it. Go right. There's it's five ads. So press the right arrow. >> Okay. I don't want to I don't want to you know >> the we ran these like uh three or four years ago graduation season. >> How does it set you apart? >> Oh, we'll get there. >> No, no. Okay. >> Press the right arrow. >> Five different variations. You want to read it out loud for the listeners? >> Yes. It's probably a good idea. >> Okay. Let me start with the beginning. >> Add one. >> Add. Okay. These are all They're being shown as billboards. >> It didn't go on billboards. >> Yeah. But it's a nice presentation. The first one says it's called. Now the headline I guess is in yellow but it's all the same point size and the headline for the first one is it's called a job. And then the subhead underneath is it's what you do when your school can no longer babysit you. Um next one in the series is it's a little longer headline. Graduation means your parents stop giving you money and start giving you advice. That that's the payoff. The next one is as long as you know the Pythagorian theorem, you're qualified for anything. I try so hard. The next one is will make your end gert to stop asking what you're doing with your life. >> If you hate your teachers, try a boss. >> You don't want me to do this on the air, do you? >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. >> So, >> please don't set you apart. >> So, hold on. My I was very personable and real. >> And this doesn't come across there either. this um I there was no con I've never seen any paper ads that were just everything's too corporaty or too safe. >> There's no insight and >> there's no insight. That's true. Okay, fine. I want something funny. Really funny. >> You want something? You want something funny? >> What? >> Off the top of my head. >> Yes. >> But it's also a message. >> Okay. >> Assuming most of the people you place stay placed, right? You know, our our um 87% of our our people go nowhere when >> [laughter] >> Good. I'm I'm I'm I'm a potent I'm a looking for a job that tells me you know you're a good shot. >> That's probably something though for employers. >> No, it's for both, >> right? It could work for both. >> It's for both. And I'm an employer. It It tells me you know how you know what I'm looking for. You understand. >> Was that a sneeze? >> Yes. >> Scared me. >> It's your cologne. Um Kougal 15. Don't use it. Um and he has the Nanga Brooks version. That's why. The kidney works fine. Um the these um honestly these I apologize whoever did these. >> No. So here's my question. I'm leading this is leading into my question. I feel like a lot of Jewish marketing is playing it very safe. If you look in the communic local paper ads >> I do I asked my wife. I I can't >> I I take those things apart. >> You know we we used to we used we used to play a game. What do we think a great ad is? And we boiled it down to one thing. You look at I could never think of that. Wow. >> So here's my question. And it usually starts with the under the foundation of the what was the what was the strategy what was the brief >> what got you to these thoughts which by the way there is no continuity really in these thoughts you know >> so here's my question what is Jewish marketing missing that if they started focusing on this or that >> get me in tr you know something what's missing >> in two minutes because we really have to finish >> the 90 there the certain guys that have it on on the agency and this belongs on go he gets it he understands the word strategy Y he doesn't just use it to impress people. >> Um Ellie Calfman who's an art director gets it. Art an art director is somebody who can take a visual a headline and copy and make one plus one plus one you will fly right we are the from market and please pay this is for your listeners don't want to go into this the from market is the last great bastion of print advertising go don't need print anymore >> they don't yeah print doesn't work >> print is what put all the great agencies on the map Volkswagen was made by print Avis car rental was made by print lal was made by print and DDB learn the history of this industry learn who to get more because we're one of the last places that godless of thinking is applicable because we have Shabas, we have Jontiff where to the best of my knowledge nobody's come up with a head for an iPad >> and yeah and there's still more print publications coming out weekly >> 100% but we are the last bastion of of of print and and and we're not using it I can't look at I can't these magazines I don't see and they're exceptions the guys who are doing um much called Mar they have them but they're bright spots but I It's more cool line. What's the real thought? >> So, if a company's looking to reach out to a creative agency because if they have this idea, they don't know how to execute or imple what should they look for when talking to agencies? How how should they find the right one? >> I tell I tell clients >> and then we'll finish. >> I tell this is I learned this from my boss. When you're looking for an agency, look look at their work and see if you recognize any of it before you that that that worked on you. see if if you know if anything you saw their ads and that's the reason you bought a certain product you know that >> so look at the ads that you like and >> look at their work and see what it worked for you because if you're if you're on the level of looking for an agency you're more cynical than the average reader >> right >> I'm cynical because I'm coming from a different place a guy who owns a business is cynical because to him you know every but if you look at the work saying oh I remember that that's why I got the suit that's why I got these shoes whatever that's why I went to >> right >> so at least you're talking to a place that that has a kakira >> right >> you know certain People get it. Like I do stuff this guy go. I do stuff for Klein's ice cream. They get it. They get they get that they have a brand. They get, you know, they understand what what they're selling. That's more than ice cream, >> right? >> You don't have that a lot from, you know, that's why you walk in. When I was growing up in the bar park I grew up in, you couldn't fill a 30 40,000 square foot supermarket, >> right? >> I launched I launched Pomegranate, Evergreen, and um Rockland Kosher rebrand. I did all three of them >> and every one of them fascinated me more. Pomegran blew me away because what what a bander had there was so and then not just me by the way. He was getting people down from Whole Food. He was getting like the re I knew some of the distributors from the mainstream he and then he set the stage for the evergreen everyone else. >> But those things weren't possible when I was a kid. You was wounds around when you were growing up in Barbar. >> That's what right age is now. where >> on 13th to 52nd Solomon PL across no >> W bounds was a supermarket kosher was one there's all your products right but to open up a store like in you know a rock kosher but you know everything is kosher that didn't exist that's you know and and that's why so many areas have gotten like sideways is like the wine business has gotten a lot because you know the goish business hey we get a kosher certification these guys drink wine every week right >> but it's not so simple we're loyal to our you know not just because you're coming try it. You know, it has to be Mortyn. It's not just a Heshire. And there's been a lot of wakeup calls. And that's why the Herszogs are smart and the guys, you know, at um the guys who do uh what's what's their name? Dalton is smart. >> And he's tapping his watch, ladies and gentlemen. That means he wants to play with Rocky. So, >> no, no, we got to wrap up because I have to run. >> Oh, okay. He has to take his kids to the dentist. That's what he means by running. >> Yeah. >> And that's because he's a good parent, unlike me. >> I'm happy my kids still talk to me. Well, they don't really, but they text. They don't really text either. I got a message was through my wife every so often. I really don't. >> Okay, let's wrap up. >> Okay, thank you for putting up with me. >> Thank you so much for joining us on the episode. Let me just do a quick after this is if you get any restraining orders, you can ignore them. Most of them, maybe not. Call me. Okay. And if the FBI with the most wanted list, that's a better than >> Okay, fine. Thank you for joining us on today's episode. I really hope you enjoyed. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube and I'll see you next time. >> What he said.