The What It Takes Podcast Ep 10:Top-tier 1st Amendment lawyer ft Ron Coleman

anything you do or don't want to talk about. >> I can't imagine what I I'm a very square guy. There's nothing that I the only the only thing that I you could ask me and I could say I mean if you ask me anything about >> Donald Trump legal cases then because I actually repres have represented him and represent him now I couldn't really comment but except in >> this need to be deleted obviously but >> no nothing >> representing Trump now. Yeah. >> What? >> In a copyright case in Georgia. >> What happened there? >> He was sued for using a song without a license at his rallies. And the guy lives in Georgia, so he sued him in Georgia. It's it's it's a holdup. I mean, he does the we don't believe the guy even owns it. He's the son of the guy who wrote it. He doesn't seem to have a clear title. Judge said he gets to make his case. >> When someone sues for that, like what's the process? He reaches out to Trump. Hey, you used my song without permission. >> Write me a gigantic check. >> Give me a check. >> I'd be a gigantic check. >> Gigantic because it's Trump. If it was totally would ask for a lot less money. >> That's right. >> But still a lot of money. >> Still much more much more money than it would possibly be worth. >> And if he did ask for permission and did need to pay, what would be the difference? Let's say now, let's say he's asking for $10 million. But if he asked permission in the beginning, like I want to use your song for the rally, he would pay 20 grand. >> We'll never we'll never know because his his position is he he would the the the Bob Dover here. >> Okay. >> I would never have given it to him because he's Donald Trump and he's so bad for African. >> That's what he's saying now. No, >> cuz he's in a lawsuit. So easy. >> So now he says, "I wouldn't have given it, but now that you took it without my permission, not only do I get the value of it, but I get the value of it the price that I would put on something that I wouldn't even willingly sell." In other words, it would it would be even higher. Anyway, he doesn't he's not going to be able to prove his case. in in such a scenario. Um me coming from my little Brooklyn bubble and then like migrating to like my right >> uh the rest of the world. Um how does that work? Trump doesn't reach out to you. He has a team like what is that? >> So I was partner structure. >> Okay. So I was partnered with Harit Dylan who is now the assistant United States attorney for civil rights. >> Okay. She has represented represented Donald Trump and the Trump campaign for many years. So during the 2020 election, I was involved in some of the cases some of litigation challenging Biden's election, even though my background is not in political law or election law, but I'm a litigator. I'm experienced litigator and they needed someone who could throw his weight around in Philadelphia. So I was head of Philadelphia. Practically speaking, um when Har meet when this lawsuit was filed, the campaign asked the firm to handle it because they knew that they had someone who had copyright infringement experience and that was me and Harid subsequently left the firm. But the campaign is still letting us, you know, letting me continue with the work even though I left the firm also. It's very simple. >> You took it on. >> I took it on. Right. >> Who Trump pays for this out of his own pocket? It's like it's it's campaign money. >> It's campaign money because he really this this was a camp this is all a campaign expense. This was this whole lawsuit even though he's named personally which is very common in intellectual pro infringement cases because when someone commits a tort what a tort >> a tortic someone causes somebody else damage you know there's two there's two broad categories of law cases right criminal and civil then within civil there's contracts two people voluntarily get into a relationship and then one says yes you did no you didn't there are tors which is where somebody damages somebody else through his conduct trademark, copyright, patent infringement are kinds of tors. So in a tort we even if you have a company even if you have you set up you know a company for purposes of limiting your liability the law is still that a person a torque can ultimately only be committed by a person. So even if it's the company doing it a person pushed the button that made the company do it but as a practical matter this is really a campaign expense. it the whole reason that that the song was used was be was first of all they had they had a license they claimed the license is not valid for technical reasons and again >> when when they say they had a license what does that mean >> so there is there are clearing houses that you go to if you want to license music for an event there are certain clearing houses that you go to instead of trying to track down the artist himself >> and they they give you a price for different kinds of licenses public performance licenses or um you know different >> is it like title insurance on a house like it says you you are clear to buy this house or clear to use this song. >> You're licensed to use the song. Title insurance on a house. No, title insurance is not really a license. Title insurance is just >> nobody has a lean on this property. >> Right. Right. It's a different kind of thing. >> What do clearing houses charge to be able to use a song at a presidential Trump rally? Well, that could easily I think your guess was a probably a pretty good one depending on the candidate, depending on the location, how many people are going to be there and the value of the song. Okay, so some songs are super duper gigantic all-time hits and it's going to be harder to license them or more expensive to license them than, for example, Hold on, I'm Coming, which is what the song um in question is, was a hit even before I was born. That's how old of a song it is. So, if you're of a certain age, it it's familiar to you. If you're into rhythm and blues, it's familiar to or Mottown, it's into you. But if you're under 60 and you're just a regular person, the only reason you'll probably know it is because Trump made it famous at his at his rallies. >> Was did it was there a value now to the artist or artist's family or brand because they used it at at a rally as in like, oh, now there's more streams on Spotify and now more views on YouTube. So, that's a question that I can't answer because I don't know because I I don't know the facts. I don't know whether that's you. In order to to address that issue in a lawsuit, you'd have to get expert testimony. >> Okay. >> Um that would be, you know, that would be here. Here, you know, there are general principles in these matters. This is an unusually customized fact situation because it's one, he's the president of the United States. Not only is it he's running for president of the United States, he's a former president of the United States. He's Donald Trump. So, and plus he had the the woman who was now the widow, but who was at the time this all happened, the wife of Donald Trump, not the wife of the wife of of the artist who passed away. >> Her understanding was that the license was good and she's a Trump supporter and she so >> the son is making issues. The son is making issues. >> It's a shakeddown. There's a gigant, you know. >> Is it worth it for him to spend so much money on lawyers when he's up to against against even more money? >> It would it wasn't is a word for the plaintiff. You mean? >> Yeah. >> Well, he's >> he's going up against Trump's team, >> right? But he's in for a penny, in for a pound. He's thinking of that he's got a big payoff here. >> How much did he make off the clearing? the clearing house pays the artist or artist brand. >> It doesn't we don't know that. It doesn't and it doesn't really matter. Again, >> did he make money off um direct money off the song from his father being used at the rally? >> I don't know. >> Interesting. >> Wow. Okay. >> Want to introduce me? >> Welcome back to another to another episode of the What It Takes podcast. My name is Tulie Krauss, CEO at Blackbird Recruiting. Today's guest, Wow. Um, Ron Coleman. Ron has been a litigation, intellectual property, and uh what was the other one you said? Uh, infringement. Uh, copyright. >> Well, that's intellectual property. >> Intellectual property. >> Free speech. How about that? That would be a good one. >> Free speech attorney for over 30 years. >> Yeah. >> You have worked with um on cases that involved presidents. You have over a quarter million followers on X. You have the biggest blog on intellectual property law in the country. >> One time it was. Now it's retired. >> Okay. Now it's retired. >> It's It's retired. >> Retired. Um >> many people thought it was Also >> I said retired. I didn't say retired. I said retired. Um welcome to the podcast. >> My pleasure. [Music] How did you get into intellectual property law and why? It's a good question. I used to work for my mother. My mother used to work for a patent lawyer at the city's service company. It's an oil company. >> City service. >> City service in Cranberry, New Jersey. They had a technology center and she was the secretary for a patent lawyer and I used to go and I would help her out sometimes. I would do some typing because he would dictate patent um applications and my mother had trouble keeping up. She'd take the work home and >> because English wasn't her first language. >> Where's she from? >> Cuba. She's from Cuba. >> Really? Okay. >> But not because I mean her her excellent her English was excellent. But the point is, she was happy to give me the work and she gave me, you know, I made a few bucks. But when I would go to her office, I would I encountered the the trademark gazette, which is the when a trademark is registered. >> Okay. >> There it's printed in the gazette so that there's a public record of the registration and also so there's 30 days in case anyone wants to oppose the registration. And when I encountered these, I said, "Oh, this is I love this. This is cool. This is where all the brands live." >> What did it look like? >> It's It looked It looked like a um >> classifides in the >> No, no. Imagine a a paperbound book like a you know, a law journal. >> Okay. >> Like a you know a library book, but but paper paper bound. >> Okay. with and it just word picture word word picture word word picture of the of the trademarks and the owners of the trademark information about the class of the trade you know I didn't understand what it was in those days but that intrigued me very much when I I I wasn't motivated to go into law because of my interest in trademarks I was interested in politics I was I always had the a very verbal orientation so I thought I would probably enjoy being a lawyer. I would probably like being an advocate. >> Were you al were you always studious? >> Yeah, in a way. I mean, there's studious like my wife who I was bookish. In other words, I was always I was nerdy. Instead of going out and playing, I was a book. I would read books. I was interested in the world around me. But in terms of studious, I mean, in my house, if you had homework, you did the homework. But people who were really really successful academically like again like Mrs. Coleman >> Rabbitson Coleman. >> Rabbits and Coleman Esquire. She would go to the library to study. Whereas like when I was in college, if I wasn't if I didn't have an assignment due, then I would go to the radio station to be a DJ or I would >> you know I I I I was having fun. >> And then when the test came, I would cram. And that doesn't really work out so great at the college level unless you're really a super genius, right? >> Which I'm not. I'm you just a regular genius. So, uh, you know, so so studious, but but I guess compared to the average person, I mean, for I I had a very high GPA in high school, so I got into a very good college and a very good law school. So, you know, that worked out okay for me. >> You ever take a I test out of curiosity? >> Yeah. And were you happy the results or shocked or like oh cool moving on? >> They seem to be they seem to be pretty respectable. >> Yeah. But I mean, you've you've probably had smart listen there are a lot of people who who aren't into the the world of credentials who are super duper smart and you know they apply themselves at at business at real estate at recruiting and you know they don't have the diplomas on the wall like I do or maybe not the vocabulary because they're but they can they can they've got spreadsheets in their brains right and they know how to you so measuring intelligence is of definite value but not absolute value. >> I'll be all in all, >> right? >> Um, you started your career in law. What was that like? Did you go work in-house? You started right out on your own? Did you go work at a firm? >> Yeah. So, what's very common, if you go to the major law schools, they have the ma the major law firms recruit at those schools. So, I was at Northwestern in Chicago and I wanted to return to New York. I'm originally from the New York area, so I wanted to return to New York to work. So, most of the major law firms on the east coast recruited at Northwestern. So, I interviewed with various firms and for my second summer, my first summer I was in a law New Jersey law firm where I confirmed that I wanted to be a litigator, right? There are all kinds of different lawyers. And my second summer, I went to a firm that was very strong in litigation and antitrust. and they offered me a, you know, full-time job after graduation. >> How long were you there for? Well, it's a little bit of a complicated question because they offered me the job after graduation, which would have been after I took the bar exam in 1988, but I turned it down because I wanted to go to yeshiva in Israel because I had become religious after college. And although I had very nice academic credentials, I had never formally um studied in yeshiva and I felt that given my intellectual abilities, I should not be illiterate. So, I said to the law firm, "Why don't you I I I appreciate the offer, but this is and I had student loans, and you know, coming from a working-class family, it was, you know, a very big number for me in those days. This is again the 80s. And it was a Park Avenue firm. It was very prestigious. But I said, I can't do it because I this is the I'm not married. this is the time in my life when I'm going to have the opportunity to do this and I'll have to take my He said, "No, not so fast. I have to turn down the offer." Okay, we hire a lot of people. We hire 30, 40 people every year. So instead of coming in in the fall of 88, you'll come in the fall of ' 89. Okay, we do that when some people have judicial clerkships. We can do it for you. It doesn't really make a big difference to us. We like you, you like us, it'll be fine. So I took them up in that offer, which was amazing, incredibly generous on their part. and I went to Israel and I studied for a year and then I ended up studying for a second year which I had not planned on but which worked out for me and they gave me another year's def um deferral and >> that's something they commonly do give it a second year deferral. It's not unheard of, but they they were getting a little bit worried that maybe I was never going to come back. And I had I would never have had the audacity to ask for it myself, but I had a a teacher in the yeshiva. I had come back from Israel to my right here in Muny, New York, and he sat down with me. He said, "Ron, you've you've made a lot of progress in a year, but guy like you, you should really you should be a little bit further up the curve in terms of skills." I said, "Okay, that's probably true, but due to the circumstances of my birth and upbringing, um, this is what I got. You know, >> you got to go to work. >> I got to go to work." He said, "Well, you know, I we have a program here where you can go to an advanced yes in Brooklyn." And this was when Brooklyn was the the center of the yeshiva world. Not like it is today. Today, Lakewood, New Jersey is the center of the yeshiva world. Um, we could probably get you up to speed to go to that yeshiva and then you would really be, you know, you'd be in the mainstream. And I I did take a lot of pride in passing well for someone who wasn't raised religious because I grew up in a quasi Yedish-sp speakaking family. I had a lot of familiarity with Yiddish. I'm from Brooklyn, which is basically like being Orthodox just by itself. >> Forget about it. >> Forget about it, you know. So I came across but I was still barely, you know, quas quasi literate. He I I said he said reblabe I I appreciate it but again I have this situation I have this job my parents just I can't walk away from this >> who was paying off your debt for those for that year. >> So during that time that you you have a they defer repayment of the loan >> till you start working. >> Till you start working. >> Oh okay. >> Yeah. >> So he said I want you to meet someone. Let's go on a trip up to a place called Camp Mars, which is a a bungalow colony in the Catskills. This was the summer. And talk to Roshi Shiva, the head of the rabbitical academy in of Kai in Berlin in Brooklyn, which I had heard of. And um I said, "Sure, I'll go along. I'll talk to you tell him your situation because he's a very wise man." So we drove up to Camp Mars. I meet the Roshifa of blessed memory. He is um very imposing person, beard down to his midsection. He was very sharp in those days still. And he hears my story and he says, "You you got a good point. I mean, this would be a very big deal for you that you know you recognize the value of learning Torah and you know that your skills could be better. But on the other hand, you have this opportunity. you can't then what's the what's the name of the law firm again? I said again told him the name of the law firm said I'll be right I'll be right back. Goes into we were sitting on the on his deck behind his house. He goes into the house and comes out 15 minutes later and says we'll see you in the yeshiva kaneka time. By the way, what just happened? What just happened? Turned out that a major supporter of that yeshiva was also a significant client of the same law firm. And that client of the law firm called up a member of the executive committee of the law firm and said, "I'm asking I would like you to please give Ron Coleman another year. he's under the, you know, the the wings of the Roshiva here. And he he said, "Look, just make sure that he's serious about coming back. That's all. I don't want to have egg on my face." Which was good for me because this way I I could tell my parents that no, that I promised to come back. And I got another year and I uh shortly thereafter got engaged. Ended up learning in Kai in Berlin the the following year, which was an incredible experience for me. And it was really It did allow me to look. My kids grew up really sort of thinking I was a normal Tati, you know, a normal yeshiva dad, even though they all surpassed me very rapidly in their skills, which of course was the whole point, >> right? >> All right. Yes. He says, "We got to do this with more energy." Are you spending between 20 and $30,000 a year on health insurance for you and your family? I use United Refu Health Share. For me and my family, we're spending $500 a month on our premium. And when we end up spending $1,500 a year on our deductible. After that, they cover 80% of every doctor's visit. It's usually meant for bucksham healthy families that don't have any serious pre-existing medical conditions and up to four grand. They cover 80% of every bill. After that, they cover everything. It's very easy. You go to the doctor, you pay for the visit, take a receipt, and the bill of what it shows what you paid for. You upload it to their portal, get a check in the mail. I've been using them. Every time I have a question, call them. You're talking to a yid. Their office is in Cleveland. I spoke to somebody yesterday. I think her name was Riffky. Like you're calling United Healthcare. You're probably on the phone waiting on hold for 20 30 minutes. It's very complicated. Here you're talking to AED. One point of contact. I had a crazy story. Went to the hospital. Got a $85,000 bill. Ended up paying out of pocket like 600 bucks. United Rafua Health Share showed me how to talk to the hospital. Ask them the right questions. Um negotiate with the hospital. Very good stuff. saves a lot of money. I absolutely recommend you reaching out to them and learning if it's the right fit for you. >> Um, was there something drawing you to become more religious or was it more let me get more well-rounded? I know, you know, Jewish. Let me just learn more so I can be more well-rounded. >> It's a very good question. >> What did your parents think about it? Well, my the funny thing was at the end of my senior year in college, my parents were nervous that I might marry a non-Jewish girl. Now, they never could really express to me, but they didn't norther did they have to why that was so important to them because they weren't living a Jewish life either at all. They considered themselves Jewish. They called themselves Jewish, but the we didn't keep kosher. We didn't keep shabas. We drove to shul on the holidays. Uh I was >> What does that look like? >> Well, we were members of a conservative shel. >> Okay. Temple. >> No, it wasn't. Conservative doesn't Most most conservative synagogues don't call themselves temples. >> Oh, okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a reform thing. >> Okay. >> Just shows how much I know. >> You shouldn't you shouldn't know from me. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um I was always more interested in it. I always had more of an attachment to it. And again, I was we were raised in close proximity to my Eastern European grandparents. >> Did they grow up religious? >> They grew up as young children religious, but >> in the 1920s, everybody was leaving religion in Poland, >> right? >> And they joined the bund, the Jewish labor bund. And they became, you know, quite irreligious. And yet my grandfather really wanted us to have a Jewish identity and he subscribing to the Jewish press and he used to take me to shul which was really bizarre like he would I remember simplistra him taking me to shul why he I don't you know I don't think he had a clear idea in this he just didn't want us to assimilate and not become Jewish it was really important to him he wasn't such an idologue you know as many other members of the Bund were. He was just a young guy who just did what everybody else was doing, which is stop being religious, which is a shame. But he did help give me an emotional connection, you know, that and being in a you know, in a Yiddish family and being in a basically in a survivor family. So when I told my so I had a cousin who had become religious my age. He he had studied in Asia Torah and a number of other places and he sent a message. This was back before cell phones when it was difficult to communicate between America and Israel. But through his mother to my mother to me there was some kind of program in Israel that I should look into. and the message was not well conveyed and I didn't I wasn't able to get any information on it. But then there was an an advertisement in the newspaper at Princeton, the student newspaper, seeking candidates for a program that sounded exactly what he was describing, which is exactly what it was. >> So I and I applied to that and it was amazing. It was $450. Now these are $1 but $450 for six weeks in Israel travel all over the country >> right >> it was before birth well before birthright this was one of the f this was really a pioneer the Jerusalem fellowships it was called >> my parents paid for it because they were so happy that I would be leaning in the Jewish direction and they wouldn't have to worry so much about you know my marrying out I went on this and it was really a an outreach trip, but it very soft, like, you know, very soft touch. They weren't leaning on me. But the more I learned about what I had not previously learned about, the more I came to understand that the way my family was being Jewish was kind of bogus. Even as conservative Jews, conservative Jews are supposed to keep kosher, >> right? Consider Jews are only supposed to use the car to drive to Schul on Shabas, not to just do whatever they want. Like none of the things we were doing were were really in accordance with. So I, you know, I started learning about what it really means to be an observant Jew. I left out a huge part of the story which is that when I was in college, my roommate was a guy who who had gone to the high school of Yeshiva University, MTA. >> Okay. >> And he was from West Orange, New Jersey. Modern Orthodox guy, but for the first time in my life, and I grew up in Brooklyn, so I saw Orthodox Jews all the time, but I never talked to them. This guy is living with me at Princeton and he's a phenomenal student. She's brilliant and yet he's keeping Shabas and keeping so I'm watching someone keep cautious and keep Shabas in my room and that really raised my cons my my what is it consciousness about the Jewish way of life didn't make me feel the least bit guilty because again until I went on this program I thought he's that kind of Jew and I'm this kind of Jew it's okay you know once I came to understand that know what what what Matt was doing was really how you how a Jew should be. I never questioned the existence of God. I didn't need any of that. One of the things they did do at aurora was, you know, they have a lot of programs where they get you to understand that it's not irrational or some kind of crazy leap of faith to become to believe that the Torah comes from God and that the Jewish people have a special mission. all the things that traditional Judaism teaches. I I reached a point where that tipped. There was a tipping point and I said, "Okay, I'm in. I'm in." >> When did that happen? >> It happened like the last week of the program. >> What was it? >> No, it was just a cumulative effect. Cumulative effect. And I think it was something that I really, in other words, I always wanted to do it authentically. And in fact, when when I told Matt, this boy from MTA, boy, he was 22. I was 22. um that I had taken this on. He said, "Well, now you make sense because you were always politically conservative and you had very traditional values, but now at least you've got ground you've got, you know, theological and and ethical grounding for it." So un unhappily is from the perspective of Torah, I didn't stay there. You're supposed to stay there. I said, 'Well, that's not happening. Okay, I got into this law school. Uh, I'm gonna You can't go if you you're not going to You don't know how to keep Shabas. You're going to screw it up. You got to Guys, forget it. I'm going. Law school's waiting for me. I gave him a deposit. My I'm not going to kill my parents over. You're just going to have to try. No one comes back. You're not going to come back. Show you. You're going to come back. I came back. I came back. Worked at it. Worked. Yeah, >> I asked my so my parents were you also asked me did what did my parents think. Remember they had sent me to this >> program >> program at Torah. It was a little bit more than they were ready for. Now when I came back I was really Orthodox light because that's what I had seen and I was in Israel you know I wasn't really being exposed to the what we today would be called the karedi world but they were they I didn't get a lot of I didn't get a lot of static from them. It wasn't a there there were times where there were conflicts but they were not gigantic. And um years later I said to my you know my mother was telling me get bringing me up to speed on all the adventures of all my friends from high school from speaking to their parents and whatnot. And you know I'm already surrounded by her grandchildren. I said so do you think we made the right decision? She said, "Yeah, I I would if you told me that you weren't doing this now, I would be disappointed." Because she had she saw how beautiful Jewish life is, especially family life. >> Fulfillment. >> Well, first of all, it gives you the ability to understand what fulfillment is, what life, what the meaning of life is, what's the purpose of life. And this was something that I definitely needed because I mean I wasn't an avaracious avaricious avaricious I wasn't all that motivated by money. I thought I was like I thought I wanted to be rich but I never really acted like someone who wanted to be rich and I I didn't have a business head. I want I was more like a social justice warrior in the in the literal sense of the words. And after all my, you know, my grandparents were socialists, right? You know, >> I was a so so to, you know, I make a living now, but a lot of the work I do is either pro bono or issue oriented, either because of politics or because of free speech. And thankfully I I am able to get paid for a lot of it. But I represent a lot of people who are and also I do a lot of work for for the Jewish community. And for many years I I was you know regularly representing a good Israel in court or clients major Jewish organizations and minor Jewish organizations that needed help and either they would pay me or if they couldn't pay me then they wouldn't pay me. But I like the having the ability to use the secular education that I had to the benefit of the community that I had re I felt that I had rejoined. >> Would you say college is a scam? Not across the board in some aspect. >> Yes, absolutely. 80% of the people who go to college are not benefiting from college. They're learning things that should be taught at the high school level. Education in this country is a scam. Unions have destroyed it. Wokeness has destroyed it. Family the disintegration of the family has destroyed it. And the internet has not done it any favors either. >> Gary Vaynerchuk is a big opponent of uh yeah of college. He says biggest scam. Who is >> Gary Vaynerchuk? He's he not a fan. >> No, no. I I think it has outlived its usefulness. Um but again, you can't talk about getting rid first of all I mean the the financial racket is it's just a a wealth transfer from the government to the university. That's how they got so rich. There was no risk in making these loans anymore. So uh they I mean the the fees that they charge for these you know these private schools is and then for state schools as well is mindboggling. People become prisoners of this debt. It is a scam. I do think that for the right person in the right circumstances. There's a great deal to be said for a liberal arts education. I think I grew immeasurably from it. But I don't even know if that's available anymore. I do think there are some I do I have met some scholarly people who are self-directed and know what they want to study. Um, but a lot then also depends on what your economic situation is >> really. Go ahead. >> I mean, look, there there are there's a place in the world for an accounting major, >> okay? You can't major in accounting at Princeton. You can major in economics, but they don't teach skills there. If you graduate from Princeton with a with what's called a concentration, not even called in architecture, they don't teach you drafting. >> This is not trade school. You want to learn drafting, you know, learn to learn. Now, how are you going to do your senior project without drafting? You you better work work that out. But that, you know, that that's the this kind of it's the equivalent of what we I I should be forgiven the comparison, but it's what in the yeshiva world we call in the liberal the idea of the liberal arts is that it's for its own sake, Lashma. And it it gives you a you know a again a way a way of thinking about learning and gives you the tools to if you want to learn on a more advanced level or on a practical level to go and do that. But that is historically meant been meant for an elite, >> right? >> And everyone going to college. this uh idea that became a you know such such a big thing in the '9s um and everyone taking out huge debt to go to college where and to to learn things they should have already learned like you know how to do expository writing how to do basic mathematics I mean the garbage that's being taught in colleges now is just shameful >> we had someone on the podcast that said that college are so good at marketing. They will they were able to convince an entire generation that their kids now need to go to college. It's just it's mindboggling. >> Is it the colleges doing the marketing though or is it I'm not >> or like a peer pressure like >> Yeah, I mean it was a social it was a social movement. I I think it was something that was very convenient for politicians to set. In other words, when my parents were growing up, what would a politician say? two chickens in every pot. >> Okay. >> Right. And then it was two cars in every garage. And in this, you know, in the 60s and 70s it was, you know, two college degrees on the wall, right? One for mommy and one for daddy. That was the kind of attainment. And for in the Jewish community, that was a way into the professions. And even though some schools were closed to Jews in, you know, through the 40s and 50s, there were ways to overcome that. and credential. So, so here you have a community among the Jews that knows what to do with scholarship and has an intellectual bent and a tradition of learning. But communities that don't have that but were nonetheless taught the same trope of college is how you achieve and then found that they couldn't necessarily achieve. They were given shortcuts, >> right? >> It it hasn't worked out well. >> I care. I want to I want to go a little bit into um your career. I mean, by now you've built a following over a quarter million followers on X. You had the biggest blog in the country on intellectual property law. You've been involved in law cases that invol in in in legal cases that involved presidents. Running a business is hard enough. Why make payroll more complicated? With Mega Pay, you get modern technology and a dedicated rep that knows your business inside out. No more generic 1800 numbers, waiting on hold for a very long time, or customer service that has no clue who you are. And now they've just launched HR compliance consulting to help you stay ahead of the curve with all those tricky regulations. So whether it's payroll or HR compliance, Mega Pay has your back every step of the way. take the stress out of payroll and do what you do best, which is running your business. Make sure to check out megapayusa.com/blackbirdrecruiting and see how they can help you with your payroll. And we're back. Um, so tell us a little bit about >> I got to I must if if we're going to mention things, I should mention that I appeared before the United States Supreme Court and won a case that is taught in law school to this day uh involving free speech and trademark law called the um Mattal versus TAN. It's known as the Slants case. >> Slants. the Slants because the name of the I represented a rock band of AsianAmerican young men who wanted to register the trademark the Slants for the name of the of their of their band. So slants going back really a hundred years was a slur for Asians because their eyes were slanted. Okay. >> Oh wow. >> I don't even understand how how it's called slanted. I don't think I don't really think they're slanted but okay. That was something that people used to say and the their registration application was denied because under the law the trademark office was not allowed to register a disparaging trademark. >> And people might be familiar with the controversy that erupted around the same time about five to 10 years ago over the Washington Redskins trademark that was supposed to be disparaging. Also, >> who comes up with this stuff? >> Liberal largely >> don't have a Jewish Yeah. No. Law professors, social justice workers in the wrong sense of the Yeah. It wasn't it wasn't American Native Americans as they call them today. It wasn't >> Lance. Who's argu who was >> Oh, so so this law the law prohibiting the the registration of disparaging marks actually goes back to the 1940s. It had nothing to do with with civil rights or hate speech. It was part it was a provision that was added as part of an international trademark treaty. >> But they have a list of all the things that can disparaging remarks. >> No, they don't know. So who decides? >> Ah, who decides? >> They call Ron Coleman and say help us figure this out. >> You have stumbled on one of the problems with the law, which is who decides. And the Supreme Court ultimately when it decided in our client's favor said the only answer to who decides seems to be the United States Patent and Trademark Office decides that's not going to do it because the government doesn't have the right to discriminate with respect to a service that's provided to everyone on to discriminate based on the content of the message. That's a that is a first amendment infringement and they struck down that statute and our client was able to get its registration. >> How much did it cost them in fees and whole >> it would have cost them about $600,000 in fees, but we did it pro bono. I worked pro bono and I got I got it I have a plexiglass award from the ABA for my pro bono achievements. And the funny thing was the way I got the case, >> the $600 $600,000 plaque. >> Well, here's the thing. The guys, they didn't have money. They weren't a successful band. They were successful in the Supreme Court, but not so much. >> Become successful later on. >> No, not really. And it's kind of funny. I think I think it was because of politics because this they're they're pretty good. They're okay. Um they I had written about what about trademark registrations that had been denied under on my blog. Trademark registrations that were being denied under this provision of the law and also noticing that some were being granted or allowed as they say. There was one person in the office saying yes yes no. Uh no it was everyone in the office and it was they everyone was trained >> they remembered the term the science like from >> Yeah. Yeah. Someone someone did a search on it I guess and you know it came up >> and um he was just doing his job the the examiner. So after they were denied several times, their lawyer said, "I think you need somebody who's more of a litigator and less of a like a regulatory guy." And he said, "There's a guy who writes a blog about this stuff and who has opinions about this law. Maybe, you know, maybe I'll give him a call and I'll tell him if it goes all the way, maybe he'll become famous." Now, I got to tell you, whenever people tell me certainly now, take this case proono, it'll make you famous, okay? That's when I reach for my revolver, okay? Because famous does not pay the mortgage. But this one time that I do it, I you know, I don't it was well worth it because I I I did get to change the law a little bit. I have my little effect on history. I I meet young people who were graduates of law school over the last 10 years and they remember the case and they say, "Oh, that's your case." And you know, that's kind of that's kind of fun. And I got to be on TV a lot. And you know, I got to go to the Supreme Court, which was a great a fantastic adventure. So >> when you say you went to the Supreme Court, what does that mean? >> Well, I mean, you know, we we We appealed to the administrative court within the trademark and and and trial and appeal board it's called within the USPTO >> saying that what this office is doing is not >> is unconstitutional and they said well we're following existing pre existing precedent which says there's no first amendment there's no right to a trademark and they they it's true they were following precedent so then I appealed to the US court of appeals for the Federal Circuit and they and they said the three judge panel said no we're bound by the same president they are nothing we can do about it except one of the judges wrote in addition to the majority opinion which she joined she said well there's nothing we can do about it but if the entire no we're not there yet if the entire >> court would meet and consider this case that's called the court hearing the case on bunk E N space B A N C. In other words, all the members of the of of a court of appeals can overturn a president >> on means on the bench >> of their own of their own press. So they all So we argued it again in front of all 11 of them and that was fun. You know used to be back in the days of circuses a trick. clowns would get out of a car and they would keep getting out of the car and keep getting out. So here I remember standing there and judges keep coming out and coming out and you know 11 judges that was fun. That was a great challenge and uh they we we won on the bank appeal. They held that trademark first of all the trademark system had changed somewhat since the time of that of that of that president but also that first amendment law had changed somewhat. Then the so then we won. The government then appealed to the Supreme Court. Supreme Court took up the case and agreed with the federal circuit opinion and then we were famous for you know >> but it didn't help pay the bills. >> Well, did it bring more clients? >> Absolutely. Absolutely it did. And there's a very good reason for doing proono work besides the fact that you like the work and you like the people and you like the cause. It established me as a bonafide free speech lawyer because I had been doing first amendment work. Some of it was free speech oriented because of my blogging work. A lot of bloggers came to me or I would offer them help sometimes for in exchange for links to my blog on their blog, you know, in order to promote my and the blo my blog itself was, you know, an early form of social media and it brought many clients to me established I was an established authority because of that blog because I mean after all this fellow who brought me the slants case knew what I was doing in that area of law because like everyone in trademark law read read that blog, >> right? >> So it established me as as an authoritative person and it resulted in opportunities and so did the Supreme Court turn. I was able to use that content to this day. I still use pictures of myself being interviewed outside the Supreme Court on some of my marketing materials because who has that, you know, that's really it's a cool thing. >> It was it was a great experience. It was, you know, it was very enjoyable and I I worked with great people with, you know, with lots of experience in the Supreme Court area. And I say area, it's a specialty. Being a Supreme Court advocate is a specialty. And it's mostly people who have themselves been Supreme Court clerks, which I was not. Um, but thank God we had a good result and it was, you know, my little piece of history. Well, um, when it comes to changing law, someone once commented to me, if you want to make a a change in a company in different sizes, here's how to perceive it. If someone is a one person company, you're driving a small boat. You want to turn it around, you're done. If you're in a 20 person company, it's a it's a decent sized boat to turn around. It's a little slower, you know, got to look out for more things. If you're in a 10,000 person company, this is a cruise ship. You know how long it takes to to turn around the cruise ship? So, it's really really impressive that you were able to change a law in the US government. >> Well, we I mean in the trademark um >> Well, we ch what we we struck down part of a federal statute that had been on the books since after World War II. >> I feel like many people can't say that. >> No, very very few people can say that. >> Very few people can. Many people can't. Um, let's talk about a little bit about marketing because it's hard to find lawyers who are good at marketing. That's true. Lawyers are mostly loathed to distinguish themselves. Um, especially in corporate. So, so my practice has always been even though I'm a unique I'll say it. I'm a I'm a unique person. My personal profile is more like the personal injury lawyer who does the TV commercial or the billboard, but my practice has never been that. My practice has always been on the corporate and business side. Um, those guys do de develop their own p personalities, but they're not widely respected. They're they're seen as ambulance changers. Chasers might not be fair. I mean, my friend Harry Rothenberg has become a very well-known figure make getting himself out there in all kinds of ways. Um, he I think he pulls it off very well. What's interesting is um I was in Philly and on a lot of um lowerass neighborhoods all the billboards are personal injury. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's right. And it's so it's it wasn't an area of law that that that appealed to me and it wasn't the kind of profile that appealed to me. So what but on the corporate side people do not want to distinguish themselves. >> Right? >> There are very very few exceptions and those who are exceptions sometimes end up getting their tail shot off it because they're just by virtue of being distinguished. Um, but for me it worked. >> Have you ever had a instance where your tail was shot off? >> No. Every time that I was in a major in a large law firm, which was several times, my tail was shot off because I didn't fit I didn't fit with the group >> box. I had this orientation towards causes and towards publicity that didn't, you know, my messaging was not necessarily the firm's messaging. And I always said the firm had every right in the world to protect its messaging. The pe these other people might not be as interesting and funny as you, Ron, but guess what? They have maintained the equity in this law firm for 50 or 100 years, >> right? >> And they own a really valuable asset and they can't afford to let you damage it because you're the charming and fascinating Ron Coleman who represents people that other people call Nazis, >> right? >> Nazis. They're calling me Nazis. Okay? You know, here I am an Orthodox Jew and people are accusing me of representing Nazis. They're not Nazis. I'm suing people for calling them Nazis, in fact. >> But that's too many steps for the corporate mind. The corporate mind is avoid avoid the >> public eye. >> The public eye and just be known generically. To some extent that makes a great deal of sense and for the reason that I just said on the other hand there are corporate law firms that un that understand and recognize you're not ever going to be on certain speed dials. You can take a position. You can and and in fact many companies and many law firms even in the business sphere predominantly represent defendants predominantly rep predominantly represent property owners say you know as opposed to people opposing u zoning variances or that sort of thing. So, so there are corporate identities or positional identities that law firms take on, but I had to do what I had to do in order to make a living. I didn't come into the world with with a great business network. I, you know, I'm twice removed. I mean, again, my my I come from humble origins, so I didn't have people who were going to give me business from my family or from my social circle, my parents social circle or even my social circle. Princeton was nice, but what Ivy League schools do is reinforce existing networks more than give you access to those networks if you're not already in them, unless you want to really del yourself. And that goes back to the problem again. >> So, I traded on personality and I can't say I never made mistakes, but it has kept me above water. Um, you're now at 260,000. >> It's something more like 200. I'm pushing to 280. I'm on my >> way. Wow. What advice would you give on this is on X tw formerly Twitter. Um, would you for marketing wise, someone opens a business, would you recommend getting active on Twitter? Yes. No. And if yes, how do you prevent it going down the rabbit hole of just doom scrolling? >> Yeah, that's a that's a great question. It really depends on on the business. It does have a as you you're calling it doom scrolling. I I it's a time suck. And if you're inclined toward controversy and for example, look, the defense of Israel and the Jewish people has become a major issue for all Jewish people over the last two, three years. And I came to realize that I'm very good at defending the Jewish people. So I do it a lot and it uses up a lot of my time and I'm putting off certain people but they weren't again those weren't people who were going to be either my real friends or my clients as a practical matter. >> So you could you know I'm not afraid of taking a position. It really depends on the business. I the the value of X for professions I think is very very limited. I don't think the vast majority of lawyers can't do what I do. I'm friends with many of those who do do it. people who have really distinct personalities and are known as fighters for certain causes. My former partner Harmy Dylan who's now the head of civil rights division in the justice department. She's one who does she has done it. She has a million followers. She's extremely successful and she knows how to do it. my friend Mark Randaza people who are in the first a it's very useful to be on X for people like Mark and Harit and me because we are first amendment lawyers and X is a free speech platform but if I'm a dentist or if I'm a you know a regular plugger of a lawyer if I'm a if I if I'm a rec a recruiter I don't know too many I know some recruiters who are on X. I think LinkedIn at the end of the day is a is a better platform for for most business people. X is really geared toward I'll say this much. If you if you can develop a personal brand as I have and make it pay, if you that brand is as well thought out and it's a brand that can convert, X is great. X is great in the way that LinkedIn isn't because LinkedIn is a lot of noise, a great deal of noise. And everybody's selling. everyone on LinkedIn is selling to each other and you're getting a million um you know inmails from people who want to be your accountant and want to be your SEO guy and it's a lot of noise and plus people it has become a little bit like Facebook a lot of people put a a lot of um inspirational garbage and stuff so it's not what it was when it and I was there when it first started but if you can really develop a personal brand and make it pay. I think that X I'll say this much X delivers SEO. You know, my my name on the internet and it's a common name. There are a lot of there are a number of lawyers named Ronald Coleman, but I own it. I own I own the Google search terms for Ron Coleman or Ronald Coleman lawyer because of what I've done on X. So that that's my thinking on it. >> How would somebody get good at it? Building such a big following. >> Learn and watch and learn. I'll tell you an excellent example. I mean, I I have a natural affinity for it. My wife does not. It's the antithesis of everything she's about. She is a private person. She doesn't like shooting off her mouth. X is all about the fast take. She's a thorough person. She's a go and study in the library person. I'm a watch how brilliant I am. I'm going to come in and just ace the test person. Do you ever think like I said this too quickly like pull back? >> I can't say never. But be because I am also a lawyer. I think I have more caution than a lot of other quick tag people because I realize that facts, you really need to see all the facts before you take a a position on something. And a lot of the things that people run with turn out to be >> bogus. But my wife has eventually decided she needed to have an account because she is a writer. She writes on legal topics for a blog called Legal Insurrection and I was always promoting her articles, but she said she agreed with me finally she needed to be on herself and have her own personality, very low-key. But over the years, she has learned to be a little bit more of a Twitter person to be a little bit like here's here's how you use a reply. Here's how you use a quote tweet as opposed to a reply. Here's how you use a screenshot. Here's how you use a link instead. So, experience will get you there. But you do have to, you know, it is for let's put it this way. I think a lot of people have actually had some success by having social media specialists handle their X accounts for them. If you're regularly putting out content, X is a great way to publish it and get get eyes on it. But and the way X works now, the algorithm will punish you for outbound links, but the platform will act as a server for your for your video or your or your written work. So upload that video and you can be you people can and do build followings, >> right? What I've noticed is that people who enjoy publicity are not afraid of the stage have a much easier time building a following on any social platform. You said your wife is more quiet, more reserved, more private. What are some tips for somebody like that to if they want to use social media to do marketing for their business or build a personal brand? So again, I I it's much harder. >> It is much harder and that's why I think they should seriously consider using professionals. They're at least you can have someone posting for you two or two or three times a day consistent brand building messages and content as opposed to being Ron Coleman and posting hundreds of times a day perhaps scores of times at least because I'm involved in controversy. And and now that involvement in controversy besides being getting me paid, it's because it's monetized builds my following. Wow, look how this guy remember what people want a litigator to do is to be good at arguing, >> right? >> To be a masterful with words and to be able to marshall proofs. So I'm demonstrating my talent for what they're looking for when I do what I do on Twitter. That's not true for somebody selling somebody selling um water purification systems, >> right? >> I don't know how well those those businesses work. It's the personal branding that works on Twitter better than the corporate branding. >> Wow. Have you ever been involved um in something you didn't want to be involved in? >> That's an interesting question. Yes. Quite a few of the cases that I still have on my docket are cases that I >> You don't want to do it. >> You made a promise to someone and I tried not to break my promises if I possibly can avoid it. >> Would you feel comfortable sharing an example of taking on a case? >> Well, yeah. There are cases where the client turns out to have unrealistic expectations or will not settle will you know they they have a a stubborn belief that they're entitled to a certain kind of relief that the law won't support and I'll say to them look we can get out of this we can get a a nuisance settlement and you know you get 10 $15,000 and we'll be done with it. No, this is worth millions of dollars. There's no universe where your claim is worth multi-million dollar. It doesn't exist. I said, "Can you can you get me an accountant to show me the way those numbers come from?" And they never ever can. >> Right? >> So, that happens a lot. And I will tell you, it's probably my weakest the weakest component of my professional identity is case selection. I think I've taken on far too many dogs, especially um on contingency >> if they win. >> No. >> When you say contingency, what do you mean? >> On I get paid if I win, right? But they're dogs, >> right? >> They're not going to win. >> And and I have a hard time letting people, you know. >> What about someone who's willing to pay you pay you nicely, but >> as long as they sketchy sketchy? >> No. No. So well as long as it's not unethical. I will tell you that in the political sphere especially and also in the defamation and reputation areas there are clients who understand that their chances of winning are slim. But there is a narrative that they can get out there by filing their lawsuit which will be because of notoriety or some other factor which will get them attention and get their story out there. As long as it's not an unethical claim and they'll pay me, sure, I'm up for that. I've done it many times. Have you ever taken a case where you thought you might lose friends or might damage your reputation? >> No, of course. All the cases >> represent >> criminals have lawyers. >> Right. Right. >> Yes. But in this sphere, I represented Laura Loomer, represented Gavin McInness. >> Who are these people? >> These are people who are notorious right-wingers. They're very different two kinds of people. But there, look, there are people who have unfriended people merely because their friends followed Ben Shapiro. Okay, that person is a Nazi. Ben Shapiro from guy, right? Okay, so I'm I'm way past that. I can tell you in fact that most of my friends from college, like the vast majority of my friends from the trademark legal world want nothing to do with me anymore. And then no one only rarely has anyone actually said anything to me. Now these are not really my friends friends. These are like old college chumps. As you know I live in an Orthodox Jewish community. My we're not so dependent on friends. We're we we we operate on a family basis in our community. the positions that I take, you see, Orthodox Jews, as you know, are not scared away by accusations of anti-semitism because we know in fact that many of the people who are accused of being Nazis and fascists agree with us on everything, often including Israel, >> right? >> But they're called Nazis and fascists because that's what liberals call people who they can't respond to on the issues and because they're not Democrats. So I in the in in the orthodox world I have never had that problem. It's just in the greater world and in the business world you know and in the legal world that many people have considered me to have they've written me off. >> You are very confident in who you are and you're not afraid to lose followers. Um what advice would you give to somebody who's very >> don't be like me. No, but like you've built a very strong brand and you're not afraid to speak your mind and many people are. >> That is I look to a large extent >> people want to make both sides happy or be politically correct and don't speak their mind. >> It is largely inborn. Okay, I'm a firstborn and personality I think. But there are people I mean look think I think of people who try cases in my work who are who they want to be trial lawyers and they're not charismatic. They don't have great personalities but they can succeed at being trial lawyers. So what we often see is that people who don't have my kind of natural boldness make up for it with insane preparation. And the people who have the boldest and the preparation are the ones who rule the world. >> Not even lawyers though. I'm talking about political views. There are people who are since October 7th the war broke out. There were people who like Orthodox people who are nervous to go on LinkedIn and show support for Israel and nervous about losing followers or any advice you would give to somebody that is looking for that boost of confidence and should not be worried about all these things or should people be more careful and more thought out and if they're nervous they should hold back >> and not lose those followers. >> You've got to believe in God. And if you believe in God, you know that you'll never lose out by doing the right thing. That's not the same as saying do what Ron Coleman would do. Doing the right thing means that you have to feel it. You know, you just life is too short to go through it knowing that you're being dishonest with yourself. I knew a young woman who was a a professional comedian. Very funny. She was very funny. >> Was very funny. >> Uh she's not I don't think she's working as comedian anymore. She's alive. She's she's okay. >> She was unhappy though because in the world of comedians, everyone is liberal, >> right? So she always she wasn't just faking it. She convinced herself that she was a liberal too. But it didn't take she knew she she was saying things she didn't believe and she finally started saying what she believed and these people absolutely blacklisted her. She became a non-person and really depressed because she was alone. >> She was really alone. And in the world of comics, you know, no one wanted to hear from her. And it was very instructive to me to see how she struggled with having made the attempt to be something that she wasn't. And it I think it really tore her up inside. >> Here's the thing, Tully. Many many people and probably almost no one who's watching this certainly not this far in many many people I I said this at the at our event are fine not having strong opinions. They have no trouble sleeping at night because things don't mostly matter to them. They just want to get by and they don't want and the world is made up of people like that. The majority of people are like that, right? they don't need my advice because they're not going to have this conflict. They just want to they going to take the path of least resistance. And you can't criticize someone, you know, largely it's a matter of conscience. If you're a person though who is who has a a strong beliefs and you're motivated to do the right thing, you're going to have trouble keeping it to yourself. That doesn't mean you have to mouth off, you know. It doesn't mean you have to mouth off. And the funny thing is my wife thinks I'm always mouththing off and I'm she has no idea how much I repressed. She has no idea how much I'm actually keeping to myself uh as the better part of valor. Uh, so you know, you got to be true to yourself and find the center, find the sweet spot, but don't try to be something you're not, either in terms of personality or in terms of, you know, look, there's a lot to be said. I I know a lot of people who are in who in law school tell me that during their entire time in law school they never expressed an opinion or even they're sitting there and they're being barked at with Marxist politics from some professor or or all the classes joining it and they're just they're sitting there their knuckles are getting white. I'm just not going to say anything. I just don't want the trouble. I can't do that. A >> social warrior. >> I can't do that. But but many people who do do that are able to retire well before the age that I'm going to not that I'm really looking to retire, but the point is it's a way of surviving, >> right? >> So people come to terms with different things because there are other people who can't go to sleep at night >> knowing that they don't have enough money in their checking account or that their 401k is not where they thought it would be at this stage in their life. And I unfortunately for some of the people who are depending on me who would prefer that I would be more like that. That doesn't bother me in the slightest. >> Ron, thank you so much. >> Well, what a pleasure. >> This was a really great episode. For everyone watching, where can people find you if they want to got that angle right there, that camera, where can people find you? >> The best place to start is always x.comman. r o n c o l e m- an or ronleman.com. That's my website and my law firm website. You'll find your way through. I'm easy to find. If you ever do a search for Ron Coleman, I have a I have a YouTube channel as well. If you ever do a search, you must put in Ron Coleman lawyer or you will get a most surprising result. I'll let you find out yourself. It won't be me. Thanks for watching. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Make sure to subscribe on YouTube. We are really trying to get to a thousand subscribers. Till next time. [Music]