The 1% Startup Playbook | How to build a team that wants to work without you | Ft Avi Singer

I hacked everything from day one. So when you talk about people figuring out how to go from day one, I made $65,000. That was my first job. And when I left on to go on my own. >> Well, hold on. Yeah. >> First job, first year. >> Yeah. Cuz I had I had two I had two graduate degrees. >> You're calling from that world where that carried weight. >> Yeah. Yeah. But again, >> this world don't care about >> No. No. Not true. >> Unless they need it. But >> again, I hacked everything. I went to Columbia University. I got a degree from there. That's why I got my first job. I was I wasn't qualified. So I was I was I I was I was learning before that. I wasn't >> No, but I think today >> even today same four year college person and a four-year actual work experience person without a degree. Who are you going to hire? >> Depends for what? >> Good answer. >> Yeah. It's not it's not >> but not something that needs a degree. >> But you'll see in the I'll tell you I listened cuz again my goal wasn't to get a people I want to get a job. My goal was not to get a job. My goal was to make $250,000 a year. My wife also works. So I said if I make 250 and she can get to 100 so it'll be 350. At the time I thought that was a lot of money. Right. Right. But but that but we but we had had a mindset. When I got married >> when I got married my wife was also in school both in school going and we both knew we were we were undergrads. We were going to go to graduate school >> and I told my wife when we were dating and before we got engaged I said you know we're not going to see each other Mondays and Wednesdays just on our schedule then. And she said yeah I get it but that's the goal. >> She's still working. >> Yeah. She's a she's a regional dietitian for a nursing home group. She has a different life now right. She's a regional so she works from home. She monitors all dietitian nursing home. both career oriented. >> Not career oriented spouses. Not care oriented. >> Money oriented. >> Not money as in like but independents. Yeah. Independent. We want to be independent. I'm I'm not relying on my parents. I'm not relying on her parents. We never got dollar from anybody. But it wasn't like we couldn't have like you know both parents are okay. But we always just like let's be independent people and therefore we have to have a plan on how. So I always had a plan. It was always like here's how I'm going to make money. So I started at 65. Within four years I doubled it and within four years I doubled it again. So, when I left after eight years of working in corporate America, my last salary was well over $250,000 a year. >> Okay. Welcome back to another episode of the What It Takes podcast. My name is Ty Krauss, CEO of Blackbird Recruiting. On today's episode, we have Avi Singer, founder and CEO of showed.mme. >> Showed me. We called it showed me. >> Showed me. Yeah. The website is showed. Me without a e in the word showed. >> Yes. >> It's too what? Showed.m the regular way was not available. >> No, it wasn't. >> Okay. [laughter] A company is changing how nursing homes and healthcare facilities handle compliance training. In this episode, it's not just about software and compliance. It's about the real grind of entrepreneurship. What it takes to build something from nothing, lead a team, and deal with the highs and lows of being responsible for everything and running a business. Obvious story is one that every business owner can relate to. We're going to talk about the pressure of being a boss. How to build a team that actually cares and what makes a good employee great employee. And how to stay grounded when the business feels bigger than you. Whether you're running your own company, dreaming of starting one, or figuring out how to be a better leader where you are, this one is going to hit home. Welcome. Welcome. >> Thank you so much for having me, Totally. Really appreciate it. >> Amazing. >> Great to be here. >> Now, you've owned you've you started a show that made me 12 years ago. Yes, I think that's what LinkedIn says. So, we did some stalking before the episode. >> Sure. No problem. Um, but I saw you've had quite a few experiences prior to that. Tell me about your time working at Google. Indeed. Uh, Blue Man Group. Oh, that must have been fun. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, I'll tell you. Yeah. I'll tell a little my my background story. So, um, actually originally when I started going to school, I went to undergrad in Turo like many people. I know people still do, but it was it was every Shiva guy went to Turo back in in the in the late 90s. And I originally wanted to be a clinical psychologist. >> Why? >> I liked helping people. I liked helping people. I liked talking to people. I thought, you know, based on a very basic experience, maybe being a counselor in camp, like I thought, okay, I could talk to work with people. Um, in undergrad though, that's where you really learn like, okay, is this really what I want to do as a as a as a living? And I realized two things. So, number one, I realized I didn't know I wasn't quite sure I really want to talk to crazy people all day. >> Fair. >> And then the other was I remember talking to a professor and said, "How do I become a psychologist?" And he said, "You need a PhD." And I said, "Well, how do I get a PhD?" and he said, "Well, you got to do a thesis and that takes like five or six years of research and writing." I said, "Oh, I I don't know if I'm up for that." >> I said, "Well, what else can I do?" So, he said, "Well, why don't you look into organizational psychology?" I said, "What's that?" >> And he said, "Well, it's what motivates people at work. You know, what gets people to be, you know, fired up to do their job and do a great job and how to become a great employer and all things like that." And I said, "That's actually fascinating." So, still psychology, still helping people, but in a work setting versus a person. You're >> not talking to crazy people all day. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um, looked into that, thought, "Hey, this this seems great." Um, applied to a number of schools. Um, uh, I actually went, and I think this is an important thing for people to to think about. I actually went down when I was looking for a graduate school for organizational psychology. I actually went to all the school open houses. Yeah. I went in there, I went to NYU, I went to Columbia, I went to Hopster, went to Baroo. Um, I asked a lot of questions. >> The open houses at colleges are for you to interview them or them to interview you? >> No, open houses are for you to interview them. Okay. >> Where are your graduates getting jobs? What does degree look like? what does your schedule look like? I was already married. I already had kids. I needed Yeah, I needed a schedule that was going to work. I wanted to do it as quickly as possible. Um, so I actually went down and I probably interviewed them a lot more than than they expected, but I asked a lot of questions and um luckily got into Colombia. Um, which really is how I got my first job. Uh, there was nothing else that qualified me for my first job. I was I was learning, I was teaching, I was in school. Um, but those days people would have their their resume up on like Monster.com and Hot Jobs and Career Board. I don't know if those are still around, but I put it up there. >> Indeed is still around and that's how it started. >> Yeah. No, I I worked at Indeed. Um, but yeah, no, the the the job boards are still around. Um, well, it's not job boards. It was a employee board almost. I don't know what they call it, but somebody called me. Someone just reached out and actually a few people reached out and I had some really really really interesting interviews and it was simply because I went to Columbia University. I had that on my resume and people said, "Okay, that's a good school. they have good education there. So, um yeah, so I I interviewed at uh JetBlue was a relatively new company then. That was an exciting opportunity. I interviewed at MTV. Um fortunately did not to get that actually I almost got that job and then fortunately did not get that job. So that's that was pretty good because maybe I would have accepted it. Who knows? But then this company called me called Double Click. It was a online advertising company. One of the early early online advertising companies. >> Not Undertone. That was >> not Undertone. That was later. So company called Double Click. I spoke to the recruiter on the phone and and I said, 'I have no idea what you do. Like, I don't even know what online advertising is. Like, the internet was probably 10 years old then, you know, and and and online advertising was still very very new. And she said, "Well, just come down." And I went down and I interviewed and I don't know why they hired me, but they did. And I got a job focused on employee development at this company called Double Click. And >> what were your responsibilities? >> So, they had been they had been uh a big public company in 2000, part of the do-com boom and crash. Okay. They've been taken private by two large private equity firms and the private equity firms really believed in their mission and said, "We think we can build you into massive businesses and sell you a few years down the road." >> What was the mission? >> Um, well, we think you're fundamentally great online advertising companies if you build a better business than everyone else. There were a few companies doing it then, but they said, "We think you can build a better business than everyone else." So, the first one of the first lessons I got was um you often have 10 companies doing the same thing, right? anything. You know, there's uh there were probably 10 Ubers at one point and 10 Airbnbs and, you know, 10 Amazons. The one that survives, not say the smartest one, the best people. If you have the best people, you will just simply just go faster and and go smarter than everyone else. >> Best people, employees. >> Yeah. So, that's what they wanted. So, they said, "Hey, you have 700 employees today. We have this vision. You know, private equity firms are brilliant, brilliant people. We have this vision of how to get you to, you know, x millions of dollars in in in revenue. Grow the company to 1500 people." That was my job. My job was how do we hire enough people over the next few years to build the company to about 1500 people, help increase the revenues, um turn managers and directors, directors into VPs, VPs into executives. Um and my responsibilities were San Francisco to Sydney. So honestly had no idea what I was doing. I can say that now because it doesn't matter anymore. But I really I went in there had no idea I was doing but but I loved it. I I learned a ton. I had there were great people there already who I I'm still uncomfortable. >> What was your salary though? [sighs] So, I was lucky. I think, you know, I was I had graduate school. I had I had a graduate degree. Um, so my first salary was $65,000, which >> How long ago? >> This is in 2005. >> 20 years ago. Yeah. >> 65K then. >> What is it? $100,000 now. >> I don't know. I still couldn't pay tuition. So, I I don't I don't [laughter] It still wasn't enough. Whatever it was. >> No, but it's an impressive first year salary. >> Yes. Well, definitely because I had a graduate degree. So yeah, probably probably with an undergrad probably been 45 or 50, but with a graduate degree and and therefore this assumption that you had some knowledge and you know not maybe not experience but knowledge yeah I was able to make 65. Um which actually interesting enough on my first paceub I was making less than that I had been making before when I was you know teaching and doing some other things because taxes. Yeah. >> So >> I have an interesting question. Me coming from background I I tried one semester of college >> got really bad grades. M I think I was just handling juggling a lot at that time dating two part-time jobs learning EMS [snorts] but from for those for the crowd that doesn't didn't go to college and is not from that world what makes a good college versus a bad college why are employers excited to see Colombia on a degree versus I don't know Turo Baroo or any other college that's not why is Colombia one that's looked up to >> I think that I think it's a brand honestly >> but what how did it Yale Harvard like how >> so I I think I think at at at various points they probably had phenomenal professors the real the the real thing is like this is that you know you look at the outcome right it's no different I think in a in a college and you look at it like a yeshiva like where do guys go afterwards you know that's always what you're looking for like when I when you go to a high school open house I go to high school open houses now for my kids and you know you're not you don't really like you don't really care who the math teacher is apologies if my kids math teachers watching this but you don't really right what you want to know is like what what where do they go afterwards what happens afterwards so when I would go to those open houses. I would ask people like, "Where are you getting jobs?" And they were getting really good jobs. >> How'd that happen? >> How what happened? >> Like, how did it become a brand name? >> I don't want >> They got lucky. Like, >> no. No. >> Oh, one of our people got president. >> The academics are really good and they do have again I I think it's it's very liberal now and things have changed and it's probably gotten worse. >> But back in the day, what make good academics? >> I I think I think they I think they got great professors, right? The reason why the tuitions are very high is they're really getting top-notch professors. I would say multiple professors that I had there were experts in their field. Really >> math is math. >> No, I'm not talking about math. I'm I went for >> even a math. Even in math, you can have people who are experts in their field and therefore if you go to their class and you learn math in their class, um you are going to have a better understanding of of math and its applications than going to anyone else's math class. That that's the truth. There are certain professors in college where if you go to their class in college and I had this experience multiple times I would say most of my classes okay you know neither here nor there but that's part of the degree but certainly I can till to this to this day I can remember things that I learned at with certain professors in both in college and graduate school where I understood why they were teaching at that school and I understood how that this would benefit me. So there is there is there is a benefit but I think more importantly I think more importantly >> a lot of colleges you can just apply to become a professor there >> them those might not be the ones I would be looking to go to for me again I'm always looking at the outcome right I'm always looking at and I think that's important for people to think about when you're thinking about education like something someone say do I need a degree or not >> one of the most important lessons I got and I actually got this in graduate school one of my graduate professors said this and he said I want everyone here to know something that's really important you have to understand what your terminal degree is okay. What is a terminal degree? A terminal degree is what's the final boss in education? You know, how far do I need to get my education that I'm never going to encounter an opportunity that I can't pursue that opportunity? So, know the field you want to get into >> the goal. >> Not just the goal, but understand, are you ever going to reach a point in your field, right? Whatever you're going into where you're not going to be able to advance or get the next job or the next job because you're limited in terms of your education or knowledge. So, that's an important thing for everyone to know. So, therefore, you know, if you're going into accounting, you need that master's degree. Now, um, if you're going to certain business fields, you know, whether you value it or not, you may need an MBA to get certain roles and you just have to know that. You have to know that. And I I was like, "Okay, that's that's that's great. That's important." So, I really I was very focused on that. I was very focused on ensuring that once I started working because once you start working, it's hard to go back to school before I get out to the workforce. I need all the education that I can possibly get to go as far as I can. Now, it's not really true because while you're working, you you need to do the same thing as well. So, while you're working, you constantly need to be thinking about, is there anything that I don't know now or can't do now that's going to prevent me from becoming the manager, the director, the VP, the SVP, whoever it is. And and some of these people think like, oh, I'm here long enough. I should I should get I should get advancement because I'm here long enough. It's not. You have to be able to show and demonstrate whether it's through education, whether it's through the work that you're doing. I am ready to go to that next step and be very very conscious of it. So, that was really really important to me in my career. And from day one, I was always focused on that. From day one, it was never like, oh, I want to be an employee. I want to do, you know, organizational development or or employee development. It was always like, how can I become a VP? How can I become an SVP? And what are the things I have to do in order to be able to get there? And that's correct. >> What about people? So, you're in the five towns? >> Yeah. >> What about people um who didn't grow up in the in are your parents career oriented? College a big thing. I mean for for their for their children it was but not like they didn't and they were successful but again by by not and don't focus on the degree it's what is it that I need to do to be able to become the CEO one day if that's your goal. Now a lot of people that's not their goal. I was once I was once uh >> but who knows their goal at 18 years old. >> Well you just need a goal for what's your goal for 19 right >> and what's your goal for 20. It doesn't have to be that far off unless you have real aspirations. like if you want to become a you know if you want to become a dentist you're going to become a doctor like you need to start think about that early on because it is a path and I mean even myself I knew I was going to go to graduate school so I knew okay I'm I'm on a 5-year journey here I have to do undergraduate degree I have to get into a good graduate school I have to go to graduate school my wife as well undergraduate graduate lensure like you kind of have to know what you're doing um in terms of of what do I need to do to be successful >> very cool >> um was there ever when did you have that aha moment let me try to open a business Um, so I people call me all the time and they I want to start a startup. I want to start a startup. My number one piece of advice to them is don't >> why? >> Because especially in tech, you know, 99% of startups don't work out. And that's >> Would you call Blackbird recruiting a startup? >> No, not a tech startup though. >> Tech. >> Tech. I'm talking about tech. Most people are calling me about tech because that's what they're really interested in. Like nobody's nobody nobody's calling me about a startup and saying, "Hey, I want to start a grocery store." You know, I was like, "Okay, mostly tech." So you're in tech, you know, we want to start I want to start a tech company. I always say don't. Couple reasons. Number one, it's, you know, again, most don't work out, you know, and everyone thinks their idea is great, and it is. Everyone's idea is great, but there's so many other things that have to happen for it to be successful. You need to um, you know, you need to have good customers. Someone's got to do the sales. Like, there's a lot of things that have to happen. So, the truth of the matter is, you know, through my experiences and working at at Double Click and then we got a car by Google and I went for work another company. Like, I had the opportunity. So, you know, I had the opportunity to explore starting my own company. That's what it was. So financially I had the opportunity to do that. It wasn't otherwise I wouldn't do it because number one um you're not getting paid like when you're starting a company there's no money like no one's going to get any money. >> How long till you took your first paycheck? >> Probably at least a year. >> Wow. >> Yeah. You got you have to really be prepared. Um because I mean day one you sit down at your desk and it's just you and your laptop. You don't have a company. You don't have a product. I remember the first time I ever went to a a conference for showed me back in in 2013. We didn't have a product yet. Why'd you pick this? >> So, interesting enough, when I was working at tech companies, um, and my job was education. It was employee education. Advance our employees, help them grow. So, what I found was as much education I was doing, when I really asked people like, "How do you learn how to do that?" And it's like, "What? Oh, how do you know to do pivot tables in Excel?" Or, "How do you know to present so well?" Or, "How do you know anything about the automotive industry?" What would they always say? Somebody showed me. Right. >> So, that's what it was. So, the initial Yeah. Yeah. So the initial idea behind showed me was really a peer-to-peer learning platform for companies where employees could learn from each other. >> Great name. >> Yeah. So that that that's how it came up. And what was interesting was I had actually gone to LinkedIn and said like why don't you make an enterprise version of LinkedIn like people need this in their companies. Like I need to know who know >> education >> well just for knowledge management like I want to know who knows this and who knows that. >> Have that now. >> I'm sure there's many. I'm talking about I was talking in 2009 2010. So finally I was like you know what I'm going to do it. I'll go do it. Start it. um spoke to a lot >> no one else did this >> there I'm sure there's other companies doing it but but I'll tell you something interesting so here's what happened I spoke to a lot of smart people a lot of smart people and they're like you should do it you should do you should do it and then I realize the second thing I always tell people when they want to start their own company which is make sure it's a need to have not a nice to have so the bottom line is is that although peer-to-p peer learning and knowledge management are are business critical and important it's not a need to have it's a nice to have and that's a dangerous place to And most people when they're approaching me with their startup, it's like, "Somebody told me this is a really good idea." I was like, "Yes, but do enough people need it that they're going to pay you for it?" Um, and that's really was an important lesson for me. So, two important lessons. Number one is you've got to have enough runway. You got to have a year or two of like financially to be able to do it till people are going to invest or give you money or start paying or whatever it is. It takes time and it costs money. You need develop. I'm not a developer, you know. I have to hire developers. Yeah. >> That's how you started. You had this idea. >> Had an idea. Business plan. I I I wrote 20 pages of I had some experience working at those tech companies I'd worked at in in product development. So I actually wrote 20 pages of documents on what the product would do. I'm I'm not a visual person, so I I I I'm not I can't think abstractly. So I I wrote like you when you click on this button, this is going to happen. And then I sent it to a guy I found online. I don't know how you I don't remember how we found people online. 2012 maybe. I don't think Fiverr was around, but I found someone online and for $1,500 he he um he designed the the platform. So he didn't build it. He designed it and then I took the designs and I went around. They were clickable like till today you had like clickable designs. So he designed it and then I went around to people and I said hey if I build this like you know what do you think and um people were very enthusiastic about it you know and then I launched the company um you know I I found a partner so you know I realized like hey you know what >> I didn't want to be a fundraiser like a lot of my a lot of my friends who were in startups were talking about the fact that they were constantly fundraising and I didn't want to be a fundraiser you know so I went to somebody who I knew u and I said hey you know I'm willing to give up you know significant equity more than people would normally give up but but as long as I never have to fundra is >> going for investments >> or sales. >> That's that's what fundraising is. Fundraising fundraising is when you're raising money to build your to build your company. Yeah. I didn't want to do that. >> What about finding clients? >> That's another thing. I wasn't very good at sales. >> Really? Yeah. >> You were super confident. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's it's the pushy part. I I'm very I'm great on demos. Maybe my sales team will tell you today. I'm I'm great at trade shows. I'm great on demos. It's it's harassing harass is not the right word. It's really pushing the people over that line. >> Have you ever learned how to do sales properly? >> Yes. And you still think it's called it's it it >> I still as being pushy. >> I still have a hard time with it. I'm not saying I'm I'm not saying it's a bad thing. I I I don't I don't think people regret it. I mean, we're years um over 10 years into this. I don't think people call me with regrets saying like, "Oh, I I wish you hadn't pushed me into it. I just as a as as a nature, I don't I don't find it easy to push people to to sign contracts. >> I don't think that's what sales is." >> No, I understand that. But however the methodology is that you're using to get people out, >> it's not it's not convincing. It's not pushing. It's not being a nudge. I see it very very differently. >> Okay. >> I think someone needs your sol. He could pick three solutions. If yours is the best, he's going to buy yours. >> Yeah. But but but they're not always looking. >> You know what I'm saying? Like you really have to get people to >> educate them. >> Again, there's a lot of things to it. But the bottom line is is that there's a lot of noise. You know, talking to nurse, we work home a So, a lot of it is again, it's pushing people to get their attention. Um, so but what I did though though was um is that I didn't hire any salespeople until I was over a couple million dollars a year in sales. Like that was something that was very important to me that you know. >> So you did the sales? >> Yeah, I did. I forced myself. So every I every job in the company like there's a lot of things I no longer no longer know how to do, but I I was able to do it in the early days almost every single job in the company. >> You said you did you spent time learning how to do sales? Well, would you use a sales coach? Um well first of all when I worked at when I worked at the um at at you know Doubleclick and and Undertone and some of these other companies we brought in you know phenomenal sales trainers and I would sit in on those. I was I always love the education part. So I would always sit in on I would hire them these sales trainers would come into the company and you know train 50 sales people 100 salespeople and I would always take the training as well. So I did I did you know um Franklin CVY and Dale Carnegie and I I did all those um there's a company called Execcom I used over and over and over for negotiation skills for presentation skills for persuasion skills all these things and I would make sure to sit in all those so I would take advantage I always thought again like I said before keep honing your skill what's the next job what's the next job so I was always focused on more knowledge more education more information um and so yeah so I did a lot of that um I I've used I I I also know a lot of sales people and I would use them as coaches. I wouldn't call them formal coaches cuz I don't know if I pay them, but um >> mentorship of sorts. >> Yeah. Yeah. Where I would just say like, hey, you know, how would you respond to this email? Like early on, how would you respond to this email? How would you what's your feedback on this meeting? You know, what would be my next steps over here? So, you kind of learn over time. Um I think the most important thing though for me was the shift. So, when the one of the reason I got into compliance training was I did start realizing after a few years that my platform although it was peer-to-peer learning and it was great, people loved it, was a nice to have. wasn't need to have. And that's really when I was like, wait a second, that's that's a problem, right? Because when the economy is not doing well or budgets are not there, like that's the first thing gets gets cut. Um, and that's really why I decided to look for something else and and really by accident, you know, sort of fell into uh compliance training uh with some home care agencies and um and that that's kind of how I got into it. But the most important thing was the the conversation shifted, right? the conversation shifted from, you know, peer-to-p peer learning is great and mentoring is great and coaching is great and knowledge management is great is, well, you have to do annual training, right? And they're like, yeah, and how's that going? And like it's miserable. I was like, okay, maybe I can make it better. And that certainly made sales a lot easier. >> You're a phenomenal salesperson. I don't know what in the world you're talking about. >> Not that again, I'm so again in this world with this type of sales like Yeah, you're right. Like I'm I'm this is this is my forte is just explaining how my product, how my service will help you. What I'm talking about is get get the noise like that takes persistence. And I'm not that kind of person. I'm not the kind of person who's going to call you five times a day. And even though I know you're going to thank me afterwards, even though I know you're going to call me uh five years later, I have clients of mine not eight years now. Every single eight years, nine years, there've been clients of mine. Even though you know you're going to be happy later on, but the the the need to be so persistent right now, I find very very challenging. >> I'm excited to talk to you today about United for a health share. If you are spending thousands of dollars every single month on health insurance, this is an alternative for the firm community, you should go check them out. It's not health insurance. It's a health share program. Me and my wife and our family, we switched over about two years ago. We've saved thousands of dollars. Our our premium or or the cost is $500 a month. They only use the word premium because whatever those terminology is meant more for health insurance. But for the first 10 listeners who are watching this video and gonna sign up using code blackbird, you're going to get your third month free. So that's something I'm very excited to share with you guys. Make sure to go check them out. United Rafua Health Share. See you next time. >> What would you say was the biggest challenge in the early days? Um getting clients, building the tech, staying sane. I would say I would say getting getting clients because once you have clients um and and you have the capacity to start to really listen to what's going on with those clients. So again, the the advantage I had in not going after like venture capital money or things like that is is um again one of the reason I tell people not to go into startups is when you when you raise money from institutional investors, you're on the clock, >> 5 10 years, >> whatever it is, whatever the whatever the time frame is, but and they're very pushy. They're like, "Okay, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go." And you don't have time. So the advantage I had was I signed up a few big clients early on uh in 2017 when we first moved into into compliance. And I and I told him right away, I said, "I know this is going to be better. I don't know if it's gonna be better today, but I know it's going to be better and I want you to work with me on this. And they were they were willing to work with me on it. And it was it was an amazing experience. We I listened. We got a lot of feedback. So, I wasn't really trying to sign up that many companies. They were they were they were, you know, but we started making revenue. And as soon as we started listening and as soon as we started recognizing what their challenges were, how we're going to fix those, how we're going to correct those, that's when we were able to start accelerating the business. So, that really was what got the ball rolling. And then, so that's hard getting those first few clients on board, getting >> a big one. So they getting they big enough that they have credibility, right? So they've got, you know, but then you get the ball rolling. Then all of a sudden you're saying, "Hey, you know, I'm like, why should I work with you? I work with, uh, you know, so and so." I'm like, "Oh, okay. That's, you know, that's something. Um, that's when you get the ball rolling." That's when it starts. And then the next thing you have to worry about is, you know, just how do you you figure out how to grow the company? And that that becomes the next challenge which is when are when's the right time to hire a salesperson, a head of sales, account managers, a head of account management, a CTO, a CFO, um you know, uh should you take on investment? Should you not take on investment? Like once the ball's rolling, um it's more the management of the business, you know. So when the first phase is really justifying the business or you know, why is this something that people should even pay me for? But once you have that, then it's like, okay, now now where do we go? >> I saw this post yesterday on LinkedIn. You know this company called Ridge Wallets? >> I don't. >> You ever saw this type of wallet? >> No. >> Where you correct? >> Oh, wow. >> You've never seen this before? >> No. >> So, it's not from Ridge, but Ridge is the most famous brand that makes it's a wallet. Keep your cards, cash >> and they're doing they're doing very very well. Mhm. >> And the CEO, I think, posted yesterday on Linked Sean Frank Ridge.com. So, they do very well. They're primarily e-commerce-based business. >> Trying to find that post. His about section. >> Mhm. >> On LinkedIn is I do stuff on the internet. >> I do stuff on >> All right. Listen to this post. Uh Joe Rogan has a guy uh Jamie, pull it up on the screen. It's a famous line. Okay. >> So, we're going to do Tilly. We're going to pull up on the screen. All right. Goes like this. What makes a good CEO? Being able to hear pitches and pulls in every direction and still finding the correct path forward. Your brand team is going to think brand is the most important thing. Your warehouse team is going to think operations is the most important thing. The CEO needs to see the importance in all of it and prioritize what the what needs the most attention. Right now, if you're going to let your marketers run the show, you're going to be running BOGO black hat affiliate offers all day. If you let product run the show, you won't ever release anything. A CEO needs to speak all the languages but dance to their own beat. So that goes back to what you were saying is how do you figure out what's next step? CEO's job is knowing where to focus. >> Yeah. I I think I think I would I would I would say a little bit differently than that. You know, I I I was so fortunate, you know, going back to some of the early experience I had. I worked for I worked at Double Click. Um and and some of the brightest people I've ever met in my life worked there. >> Are they still around? >> Yes. So Neil Mohan was the uh chief product officer. He's head of YouTube. >> CEO of YouTube. >> Yeah. Yeah. So all all brilliant people. All >> he worked at Double Click. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and he David Rosenbot, who's the uh CEO of First Dibs, just brilliant people who have gone on many people. I'm talking about 20, 30, 40 people at the company have gone on to build $100 million plus businesses multiple times. Brilliant, brilliant people. >> Yeah. Mo, the CEO >> and I think >> you don't know him, >> huh? >> You don't know him? >> I I don't know if he'd still recognize my name. I wonder maybe. But I I met him multiple times. He he was he was in the San Francisco office. He was a Stanford graduate. Um he was out of the San San Francisco office. I visited there many times, spoke to him many times, met with him many times. He was really great guy. >> It's pretty cool to say. I worked at the same company where the current CEO of YouTube used to work. >> Yeah. And and and and there's big people, like I said, big people at lots of big companies. Um but I think I think I think our goal there was was to get everyone on the same page as to the goal and then somewhat collaboratively come up with with who what should we focus on? I like I like that philosophy better, right? So what I do with my team is I I always say, "Okay, let's be clear on our goals." So we had a leadership offsite in September, right? We spent a lot of time. We did all the, you know, white paper on the walls, all that. >> And then we were in agreement in terms of what we want 2026 to look like. >> Is the goal ever not making company making more money? >> Yeah. But how? >> That's that's what you're trying to get consent. So that so again, so that's what you want everyone to agree on. That way you're not no one's playing budget way. Meaning in that situation, it means marketing has their idea of how we're going to make money or wants to justify their their existence. Product has their way they're going to make money or justify their existence. sales like everyone's pulling. What I think is important is if you are in agreement >> and and you come in lots of ideas, right? But if you leave there and say, "Okay, um this this is the revenue target for 2026. Um this is what we're going to build in 2026. This is what we're going to do in 2026. This is these are the the verticals that we're going to service that if you're in agreement that then it's not that much pull and push. You know, you don't have all of a sudden out of left field someone asking for for for budget for something or that's not because you could just go back and say, well, how does that how does that fit into our plan?" And that's what we've done since then. So we had this meeting came up with the plan and since then everyone's been sort of honing their team's um [snorts] you know goals and things like that for the year based on that. So it's not like you know and no one feels like oh I have to justify my my my existence or anything like that. So I I disagree with that a little bit. I think if you have everyone on the same page I don't spend that much of my time actually um uh you know prioritizing for everyone. Everyone I have an amazing team. It's funny people ask me all the time like you know what my end goal of my company is. I said, "Look, I have an amazing team." And and that's just not me saying that. Like clients will call me all the time and say, "I love working with I I was a funny story. I was I always uh say is I had a client, very very large homeare agency, uh Russian client, tough guy, gave me a hard time. Wasn't easy to get there, but I got in and he's a great client of mine today. Shout out Boris." Um Boris. >> Well, I like to call him Boris, but he's he's great. He's a really good guy. And um and he called me one day and he said, "You know, Abby, the only reason I work with you is because of this account manager. And if that account manager would ever leave, I leave." And I said, "Okay, I guess I'll make sure she she stays." Yeah. >> But then she went on maternity leave. And he got another account manager. And he called me back and said, "You know what?" [laughter] >> I said, "That's why I didn't say anything at the time because we we do we have we have an amazing really amazing team, really great people. Um we're very fortunate. We have a really good product. Our clients like the product. Um we're in a very good industry, you know, that that's growing. they love uh you know even though it's hard you know postaccute health and and behavioral health we just we like it so for me I enjoy it like I'm I'm enjoying what I'm doing we you know but I'm fortunate not everyone gets that like you know I didn't always have that there were times where people said the product is awful or it's not working or it's not doing what it's supposed to do but fortunately we've built a really great team and a really great product and we're in a really great industry and um you know I'm I'm never afraid to go to trade shows come over and say like hey we're not happy with your product we're happy with the platform we're happy with this or that I'm not saying everyone's happy you know sometimes you do have you know calls and people are not happy with whatever's going for whatever reason it happens. But for the most part, you know, people are very happy to work with us. So, makes >> you thought about quitting? >> Quitting what? >> The business. Like, >> no, I mean, people No, I enjoy it. >> Back in the day. >> Oh, for sure. A million times. A million times. Yeah. A million. A million times. A million. That's why again, you have to have you have to have an incredible network of people. It it it's it's it's miserable. people. The one thing people will never tell you about a startup because they only see the glory is for every one guy who makes it the 99 guys who literally read a drop jump off a cliff multiple times. I mean and I mean serious like to that extent you're it's it's it's serious you know whether you've taken an investment and you have people's money I take that seriously like if I take an investor like that's serious like I I I got to get that person back their money. >> So back in the day when you were thinking about like I'm this close to being done. >> Yeah. >> What kept you moving forward? I still believed in it. You know, it just was taking longer than I thought I would. Like I never really really lost belief in in what I was doing. But, you know, you you have those you have those weeks where, you know, you're you're tight. You got to make payroll, you know, and and and you got to collect and and it's it's it's rough. You're like, why am I doing this? You know, I had a great job in corporate America in HR. It was, you know, and I worked my way up. I was a VP of HR when I left HR. Like, why am I doing this? Um, it is really really tough. Um, and you have to have a a good network of people that you that you deal with and talk to and and you know, hopefully have you know if you have investors, you have good investors. Um, but um, but it's also hard. It's also hard like maybe we should have at some point like you know um, you know there are there are companies that people don't see it but you know there there's there's like I said you know a graveyard full of of the 99 out of 100 who didn't make it and many of them longer than they should have and stretch out a little bit longer and things like that but it's hard. it become it becomes your baby like you know I meet some people sometimes and I'm just like I don't I don't see it working I don't want to be the person telling that because it's their it's their dreams and everything in there but it's uh yeah it's I I never don't anyone who's listening this don't don't start a startup it don't >> obby first >> don't no just don't just don't do it don't don't do it it's if if do it at a point I always tell people do it at a point where where you you can afford to do it and I don't just mean financially like everything emotionally family everything you can afford to do it. If it doesn't work, it's fine. You'll go back and do something else. But people come to me when they're very young and rather than working at a company for 10 years or building up their skill set, whatever it is, their first thing is, "Oh, let me start my own startup because I need to make a lot of money." And I and I hear that like I I hear the stress with that and that's that's a fair point. Everyone wants to start their own company, but particularly in technology, it's a very very tough place to to build a business. >> How many employees do you have now? I >> think about 50. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we have a combination. were complete remote which I absolutely love. It wasn't uh wasn't always uh in 2019. So actually pre-COVID we had an office in Manhattan. I was going in almost every day mostly developers and they were not coming in every day and I would call them and like why am I the only one here? And they would say we were up until 2 o'clock in the morning you know doing this and that and they were they really were. Um and I just said is anyone going to come into the office? I said no. So I said you know what let's let's just let's have a remote company. Um and um we hire for that. We hire people who work well independently. It's part of our interview process is ensuring that there are people who can work well remotely. We don't always make mistakes. Sometimes we hire people really need to be in office. They need the energy. Um but we're remote. I think we're in 13 states. Um it's great. Um we um yeah, so we we just design. >> Is there a culture? Because if your team is remote, it takes much longer and is much harder >> to build a culture. >> 100% 100. Not not the same as I had in office when I worked in office. For sure not. But we work at it. I would say if I had to define the culture today, it's it's we're there for each other. Um and I think that's that's a beautiful thing. Um we have employees who are super comfortable putting on their calendar you know I have carpool at three you know dance lesson at four we have many people are parents and I think our culture is um you know just do a great job um have each other's backs be there for each other um we had an I I I takes so much pride in the fact that you know we have an employee recently who lives in Jamaica and was affected by the the hurricane that just went through there and right away her manager called me he's like hey you know what can we do you know and and I'm like you ask her just ask what she needs, you know. And I was like so happy with that. And then we had another employee also in another country who had some monsoons there and and her manager called me. It's like he's like, "What can we do?" I was like, "I don't know what what does she need?" And he's like, you know, and and like for me, like that that's really the culture. The culture is be there for each other, respect the fact that people work hard but also have families. But that balance is amazing. I mean, I'll sometimes have to call an employee because something's urgent, like 10 o'clock at night, and they don't see it as an intrusion. They're just like, "If you're calling me, it must be really really important because they I'm not that kind of I'm not that kind of boss, you know, or manager or CEO." Um, so that and the clients see it as well. Like our our our team is just willing and I hear all the time they're willing to do whatever they can for the for the client. So I think that's our culture. I don't think we have anything like it's not a you know pizza culture, coffee culture, anything like that. It's more of a culture of of of really doing doing good things for for other people whether it's employees or clients. Um, but I think, you know, as we grow the business, we are trying to to to build a culture. Um, but honestly, if you hire good people, like there there's stuff like I'm not that removed from the business, but I learn new things every day. We had two new employees this our last few weeks, and they said, "Your onboarding process is amazing." I was like, "It is like I you know, I they're like, "Yeah, it really is." Like, it's buttoned up and it's and it's and it's documented. And they're like, you know, sometimes, especially remote employees, you start your job like, you know, first couple days like crickets, right? like no day one I met with that person and I went through this document I had to do this activity I had to do that like the first few weeks are amazing and I feel like again that that's part of the culture is like let's make sure everyone's having a great experience is feeling productive day one um so yeah I I think you hire good people you'll have a good culture >> how do you um how do you set up a remote infrastructure to do it success how do you successfully set up a remote infrastructure >> very purposefully never assume that because I decide my company is going to remote it's going to work that means you're overcommunicating you're overdoccing ing um you're overmeating like it's you it's very purposeful understand what it means to have remote company and not have the ability to slide your chair over to someone's desk and talk to them for a few minutes or slide over there or grab three people and walk into a conference room. So constant meetings don't have to be long meetings doesn't but 15 minute you know Zoom meetings to catch up on this or or that or whatever it might be. um a lot of documentation. You know, if if I'm in an office, I might know how to do something because you showed me, right? But if I'm not, then document what you did so that I'll be able to do it as well. Or if we hire three people, they'll all be able to do it. So, we've gotten very very good at that. And it's super super helpful for new hires. >> Very very But again, very like don't you can't you things you can things you can take for granted in a an office environment, you cannot take for granted remote environment. It really has to be very very thought out and purposeful. >> Which one would you rather? Uh, I like remote. I like remote. You know, I think >> Which one would you rather? >> No, no, no. I I'd rather I'd rather remote. Rather rather remote. Yeah. But again, but I don't think everyone can do it. You know, people always say, "I want to build a remote company." Well, think of it this way, right? Assume it's 50/50. Assume that 50% of the workers in America or the world um can work independently. Maybe they're introverts, whatever it might be, um, and are just fine. But there's 50% that don't. They need energy. They're extroverts. They need people. They need they need, you know. So if you're going to build a remote company, you can't you can't take your company and become a remote company because you hired all these people and and they're balanced. They're somewhere between the two. Um but if you're starting now and you make that decision, so when I was in 2019, we probably had less than 10 employees. So if you make that decision then and then moving from there, um you you hire that way. So I I love it. I really do. I think we got to hire great people all over the country. You know, I've got people in, you know, I was interviewing somebody yesterday. He's just started with the company. Not interviewing, he he put a meeting on my account as a new employee who just started. Yeah. Okay. I said, "Where are you?" He's like, "I live in Minnesota." I said, "Hey, that's great." He's like, "Yeah, I'm moving to Colorado." >> I love it. >> You know, like that I was like that that's so cool, you know, like I'm like, "Why?" He's like, "Well, my my fiance has got a great job in Colorado, so we're going to live there." Right? So, that's amazing, right? When people are moving, my CTO lived in Colorado. He moved to Massachusetts. Like that that part like one of the advantages I think are of mode is all these things that potentially would be disruptive if it was in office for us are not disruptive because that person just continues with the company no matter where where they're going. So it's um you know we've had people move from New York and uh their spouse needs to take a job someplace else they continue with the company. So for me that's important as an HR person. I want people who are going to come join the company be here for a long time. I have employees been with the company for over 10 years from day one. I have many employees been in the company over six years. >> Um and um and I think you know part of it is because it works for them like the schedule the the culture that we have works for them but part of it also like I think they they like the company. It's a good company. We you try to take care of our people um to the extent that we can. Um yeah. >> You ever um when when was it that you're like you start thinking hey this might actually work? >> Um >> how long in >> how long in well again the first one didn't work out. So you know from from day one it probably about five or six years but from when we started compliance it was probably a year or two. >> Like the >> that's a long time >> what >> think like to wait like this might actually work >> in Yeah. But in in in software >> again I'm not familiar with that one. >> Yeah. So in software, the challenge with software, but people always say, "Why does software companies have to raise so much money?" It's because you constantly have to build it. Like I if I open a supermarket, >> Mhm. >> there's a little bit like I open the store, but there's a little bit investment maintenance every single year. When you're in software >> and you think about just the how software iterates today, like you're constantly building. You're constantly building. You're constantly iterating. Yeah. You're you're it's never like, "Oh, we built it. Now we can now we need less developers, right? You have new features, new modules, uh new things that you're doing. So it's it's constant. >> It's never like now it's good. The minute you coast, someone's gonna someone's going to overtake you in six months. >> Really? >> 100%. Yeah. It's so much easier to develop software now. It's so much easier to code now. So much easier to start a company now. All those things. So yeah, you constantly have to keep your eye on on the ball like what else? What else? What else do our clients want? What makes life easier? Looking at the data, but absolutely, absolutely. So it's it's it's one of those things that yeah, you even though you might make a million dollars or $2 million or whatever, like there are companies out there like there are there was a company last year that closed out. I think they were doing over $100 million a year in revenue. They had to close. Yeah. because they were never going to they were never going to make money. They just determined that they were just never going to actually make money. They had to invest so much money ongoing basis to continue to build their platform, compete with their competitors, stay ahead of other competitors that they're just like, "Hey, we're just going to shut down." >> Whoa. >> Yeah. And and not the only one. Multiple multiple companies have have gone through that. And and you know, you have taken on investment, have employees, like it's it's sad, but but that's the challenge in software is you're constantly constantly iterating. And um the day you don't grow, you you fall behind. It's it's it's very much like that. And you have to your expect Yeah. expectations you're going to grow year over year, right? If you have investors like, okay, you want we want you to grow 30, 40, 50, 60% year-over-year. Like there's, you know, that's what that's what you have to do. >> Yeah. >> That's intense. >> It is. It is. It is. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. You have to have a certain mindset. People don't realize all those things. Like building a company like again getting off the ground is one thing, but then building the actual software business, you need great people. I'm so lucky. I have I have amazing people work for me, work work with me. I don't they work for I think good people attract good people. >> I hope so. I mean I I I I think I think what was what's interesting about a lot of the people we've hired is they were most of them were passive candidates and I always ask the question there's two questions I always ask candidates um after they start not before. So number one, why? Right? Why why did you decide to join this company? And most of the time they'll say that the recruiter reached out to me just made it so compelling. And I'm like, I appreciate that so much. I appreciate >> it's a boring business. >> What's that? >> When the Yeah. No, we're working with us like just like the people we have and like the things they're doing. >> The reputation of their company like it's it's a company that people like and they're happy and go online and you'll see like people like their company and here's who they who's here they work with and here's who you'll get to work with. So, I think it's that and then the other question I always ask a few months later is is um is it what we promised it would be? >> Interesting. >> Yeah. Always. Always. And I'm I'm I'm so I'm so curious about that. Like, do we make sure we don't oversell it and overpromise and over and um and most of the time like I'm so proud of the fact that most time people will say, "No, no, this this is what they told me it was going to be. It's going to be hard. It was me, this, it was going to be that." But um I'm loving it. I'm having a great experience and um you know uh it is what it is what you said it was going to be. I was like, "Okay, that's important." Like those are very very important values for me. >> Schwock, let's talk about being a boss. >> Two parts. What's the hardest part about being in the leadership position? And has the style of of being a boss changed from when you started till now 12 years later? How has it how has it evolved? >> Yeah. So I think I think first of all I think yeah being a manager or being a boss has certainly evolved a lot. Um years ago this sort of new leadership philosophy came out. You can go on Amazon and buy a million books on leadership. Right. So every everyone has a book on leadership. But the one that that evolved I think has really become very very big these days is something they call servant leadership. >> Servant. >> Servant leadership. Okay. >> Which is you see yourself here to serve your employees. >> Yeah. >> That's a normal thing. >> Well it wasn't always that like that. you know, normally >> didn't work for me. Cover your no >> that that but that's what it was, right? So up until like up until again probably like 10 15 years ago, you know, that was >> so sad. >> It it was but again that's how organizations were structured, right? So we have entry- level employees and they become you know it was just the way it was structured. It was organized that way. Um you know even today in a lot of organizations I still see it and and and it makes it's interesting some makes our employees uncomfortable. Like sometimes they're on a call with another company and they see that there's that structure there where everyone's like scared of the boss and and I was like oh you know like it was it was awkward. And I said, "Why was it awkward? We're scared of the boss." I'm like, "You're not scared of me." Like, [laughter] they always just laugh like, "Okay, no one is, right?" So, I think I think that's what's involved. I think I think I think you have to look at yourself. If you want great people to come work with you, then you have to be working will work. >> I have to support them. I have to be willing to work with them. Meaning, it's it has to be kind of flat. Now, at the same time, they're looking to me to >> be the hero some, right? Make the decisions, make the good decisions, have the right strategy, build the right product, all those things. So, you you have to balance that, right? It's a little bit of a balance of of you know we're working together so we work together but at the same time there are areas where I have to show leadership and that's and that's in the direction of the business and um what we're going to focus on and what we're not going to focus on like we've given up pieces of business over the last few years and and it was a you know something that was a million dollars worth of business we walked away from it >> um didn't didn't fit with with the core business and it becomes a distraction right >> so I'll give you an example like we do we do um >> we do healthcare training right So, nursing homes, home care agencies, ABA, we do behavioral health. At one point, we had a bunch of McDonald's franchises who came to us and said, "We've heard your platform is amazing. It works very, very well for a certain type of employee, like a frontline type of employee. Um, can we use it in our in our franchises?" And I was like, who doesn't want to work with McDonald's, right? So, we jumped right in. But then what started happening was if we wanted to grow in that business and food in in food service, hospitality, we'd have to start building our library. We have to start supporting that business, going to those conferences and trade shows, becoming experts in that industry. And I got some great advice from uh from actually an investor at the time who who sat me down and said you can't do it. And I said really because it's such it's such good money and it's and he's like it's just not going to work. And I thought about it for a while and I started already started seeing myself like when you're early on you have limited resources you have to be laser focused and >> narrow not wide. >> Yeah. And and and and as long as there's enough space you know like again we have we have a massive market. Think about like the number of employees in our market the trainer is like 11 million right. So like he's like you don't need it. He's like it's maybe it's easy it was easy they came to you easily whatever it is but you don't need that. Um so become the expert in in what you're doing like that's really great and who knows maybe 10 years from now you'll have the capacity you'll hire a complete other team and they'll do hospitality or food service whatever it might be. So yeah those are the tough decisions you have to make as a CEO and people are looking to you like make that decision and sometimes they even doubt you like when I when I got up in front of the company and said hey we're we're not doing that anymore and like but we make money on it. you know, that's that's money that we're literally saying like we're not going to buy. >> Yeah. So, um hopefully in in hindsight they look back and say, "Okay, that was, you know, the right decision." >> I hope so. >> What's the hardest lesson you learned being a leader? [snorts] >> Managing a team. >> Well, it goes back to like what are the hardest things to do? And the hardest is is um knowing when something's not working, you know, whether it's an employee, whether it's a product, whether it's a service. You know, I'm uh I'm an HR person in my background. I get attached to people. I get attached to things. And um it's the hardest one. I would say I've I've you know it's hard it's hard to sit down with either their employee or their boss and just say like we have to be realistic over this isn't working. >> Um or you know goes back to the you know the other products who somebody something somebody may have built up that business that then said we're not going to support that anymore or we're not going to pursue that anymore. Those are very very hard things to do because um you know it's people's lives it's people's focus attention all those things and um it's very hard. So, I'm I try to be very I try to think through that lens now when I'm hiring somebody. Um or when I'm thinking about a a strategy is I want to be much more certain that it's the right decision. >> Um so, you know, even though we have a role that might need to be filled, I might take more time to fill it because I really really really want to be certain about it because I don't want to be in a situation where it's not going to work out. Um whether it's again whether it's a person, whether it's a product or service. Yeah. How do you balance holding an employee accountable versus potentially killing morale? >> Like >> I think it's opposite. I think I think I think I think again in my company we hire people who want to be successful. We don't hire people who just want a job. Um years ago >> I got a profit. >> Yeah. But years ago I got interviewed by a company fascinating business and they wanted me to come work for them in organizational development help build the business. I interviewed a number of the employees and they said, "We don't actually want to move up. Like we're we're very happy here." Like I we we walk in the door, we do our job, we go home, we get a paycheck. And I went back to the manager. I said, "This isn't for me. You have too many employees who sit in that bucket where they want that's where they want to be." >> I try to hire people who who don't who don't who don't just want to be in this role >> for the rest of their lives. They they want to move up. They want to become a manager. They want to become a team lead. one of my best account managers started doing tier one support, password resets and things like that as now my top account manager and always had that mindset. Um developers, you know, >> so how do you inter how do you figure that out on an interview? >> You ask them you ask them >> everybody says >> no not a lot of people just say like I you know like I said in that interview with that company like I I want to come to work they do do a great job but you know it's it's you know and and I think that's how you keep morale. So morale is not it's not a it's not an artificial thing that you create, you know, through uh you know, bagels on Fridays and pizza on Tuesdays or whatever. It's it's something where if people feel good about what they're doing on a daily basis, um feel like they're the product that they're that they're selling or supporting or building is is is out there and is being successful and helping people successful. Like that's what builds morale. Like you're proud to work for that company. Um you know, whenever we got swag, shout out [clears throat] to these really nice mugs over here. Um, I always like to give swag that people actually use. So, I'll I'll spend a little bit more. >> How do you figure that out? >> What what they'll use? Yeah. Quality. Quality. So, so if I'm getting something like a thing I get, we got the Stanley >> mugs. >> Mugs. I'm not getting anything else. Like it's going to be that one. Um, if I'm getting you like a hoodie or anything like that, it's going to be a really good one. It's a warm one. It's one you're going to wear and um because I want people to wear it and because it says two things. Number one, you know, again, they're they're promoting the company. But number two is they're comfortable with that. Like they're comfortable walking around, you know, >> because it's good quality. No, just good quality, but also the fact even but people wear good quality. If it has your logo on, you're like, you know, why aren't you wearing like a brand name item? But people are putting your logo on. >> Oh, absolutely. And people say and my employees love it. They always say, I always wear that that hoodie. I always wear that sweatshirt. I always walk around with that umbrella, whatever it is. And I was like, why? Well, first of all, it's really good. And number two, like I'm proud of the company. Like I'm proud of our business. I'm proud to walk around and people say, "Oh, you work at Show me. That's amazing." Um, and I feel that way. I feel such pride when I go to a to a conference or a trade show or anything like that. And I'm walking around and people say, you know, people see see me. Again, not everyone's happy. We we we we have not been successful for everyone. It just you know that that that's life. But but when most most of your company come when I talk about most like 90%, you know, over 90% it has worked out. It has been the right decision. It was the right thing. Um you feel good. You take pride in that. Um and I always try to make sure also when I come back from from conferences to share that with the team, you know, what was the feedback that I got there and what were people talking about? What were people saying? Um, but I think that's really like the the the key to like the whole morale building, employee retention, all that. It's got to be real and and you have, like I said, you have to interview. Do you want to be part of that company or is this just a job you're going to come and and you clock in, clock out? You know, >> I love that. >> Yeah. >> We want to talk about a little bit what makes a good employee. Um, what are things you look for? >> So, for our company, >> does it depend on the on the role or >> There are, but there's also overarching, right? So the role, yes, certainly, you know, we're going to test people if they're developers on on their development skills and and if they're marketing and sales, whatever. We're going to test them on that certainly. But I think overarching for us, there's a couple things that we look at. So number one, because we are a remote company, are you independently motivated? And we have certain questions that we'll even ask >> like what >> what kind what kind of questions we ask? Tell me about your current day. What does it look like? And you can start telling when people are really like their day is full. You know what I'm saying? like whatever their current work is, like their days full versus, well, then I wait to see if an email's coming in and then I wait to see if hits me up on Slack and then I wait to see like if there's a meeting like they have their day structured, they have their day organized. Um, that's super important. You're not going to be successful at remote company if you are not independently motivated and and and and have that figured out. Um, we're in compliance. Attention to detail is critical. We can't make mistakes. If we make a mistake, a client might miss an audit, might miss a survey, might have deficiencies because of us. So, it's critical. So, we hire people for that. Um, strong communication skills. Again, you're remote. >> Remote. Yeah. >> So, you got to have those strong communication skills. You don't have to be an extrovert. Just >> that's a big one, right? >> And we again, we and these are things that we're testing for. Testing people's writing skills, right? You know, write stuff for us, interview. We'll do some do team interviews to see how they interact with multiple people at the same time. Um, so I think there's there's a number of things that that we just expect from team members. Um, you know, showing up, you know, being there for for for for like I said, for for each other. or um you know people go out on on vacation or leave or something like that and and like it's it's just the way that people like you know yeah the coverage it's like like you see it you get the response email like I'm out of office but you know this person's covering for me and I'm like ah they're great like that's great you know that person's covering for them and like and and then because you have those people working with you at your at your company and you know they also have great attention to detail and on top of their stuff you're like I don't have a problem going on vacation right >> you know for me >> I would say one of the most amazing things that I feel right now at work and this is like I talk to people about I used to teach leadership and I you a lot. So, at a lot of startup companies, I I taught leadership for years. Um, still do it a little bit and I enjoy it a lot. Um, but um, one of the things I would talk about is, you know, you're doing a great job as a manager and a leader when you can go on vacation and most of the work is still going to get done. But if you go on vacation and come back and 50% of those things don't get done, you're a terrible manager. And nothing personal. It just you're just not doing a good job. You don't have the right team there. For me, that's where I am right now in my life. Like, it's it's it's the sweetest thing. I I could literally, you know, and and not just me, our our CTO, right, decided he wanted to go to Nova Scotia. He's like, I want and and he's been working with us for a long time and works weekends. I mean, he's a real CTO, the guy who will stay up all night to make sure the data migration goes over like that kind of guy. And we have a few of those. Like, we have some crazy people still dedicated to I can tell you a million stories. Tell him the story. We had a developer who I remember I called him and I was like, "Where are you?" He's like, "Oh yeah, I'm at chemo." He was he was unfortunately still with still with us today years later. Um, and I was like, "What are you doing?" He's like, "I'm I'm coding." I'm like, "Why? Why are you coding?" He's like, "What else should I do? I'm going to be here for three, four hours." I was like, "Seriously, I don't read a book. There's nothing." He's like, "No, I I want to do this. This is what I want to do." Um, so we just have amazing people. So this guy and so because of the dedication like that, this guy is a CTO of ours who we love, Matt Pope, superstar. Like our clients love, everyone loves this guy. He's like, "I want to go to Nova Scotia." Like, go. I was like, "What do you think is going to happen?" And he's like, "You know what? You're right." And maybe it's not 100% of the stuff, but 90% 95% are getting done. >> That's a great percentage. >> Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So that that's what we want. Like we want we like and that's how I feel now. And I feel like if you if you hire the right people and you motivate the right people and they're dedicated, everything like that, then it it's not about like am I here watching what you're doing or not or what you're not doing like like the rest of the company could have a blackout right now and you're the only one available and like it's almost like nothing's happening. Like it's it's it's the greatest feeling. >> You ever needed to let somebody go who you really liked? >> Yeah. all the time. I I Yeah. I mean, I like I think I like all the people that we hire personally. >> Oh, we need to fire. >> Yeah. Yeah. It it just what we try to do honestly and this is part of my HR background. So, there's two types of reasons you have to let someone go. They do something wrong. And I I worked in tech for years in HR and I could tell you some crazy stories, you know. Uh >> share one. >> I won't share any because I'll tell you what I used to do. I don't want to deal with them. But you work at tech companies. They're parties. There's agencies. I mean, we used to have a one one company, we had a house up in the Hamptons that that they would take like agency people to for weekends and so those create issues. I was so fortunate though, I had two people on my team working with me, two women, Dana and and uh >> Meredith. >> Okay. Well, we're going to do an editing. We'll cut that that is great. Um who I still I still, you know, I still have about to do with with till today. Um and I would just say, "Look, I'm a guy. I don't want to hear this stuff." >> Right? Right. So they'll go and also they also know I was from so they I would say so they say you want us to get it first. Yeah. I'm like so they would vet everything like all these stories crazy stories would happen and they were you know crazy stories you know people would do um you know terrible and then I would have to go break the news to them but they would go do the investigation the whole thing but I mean I had a guy one time and the company was going to get sued. I mean he was just harassing people >> and and I was just like and they kept coming to I was like and I felt terrible. I like the guy >> and I sat down and I said I said you got to stop. You got to stop. You got to stop. And finally I was like you got to go. I remember I felt so bad he didn't want to leave and he's like I'm not leaving >> and uh we had to call security which was terrible and I felt awful and [laughter] I felt I felt awful. So what he really try to do so again so those there two types of firing you have to do. So some some of them is like that where they're talking turning to like potential litigation or liability like that you have to really be very quick and you know speak to your labor attorneys and and employment attorneys things like that. That's important. But if it's not working out I love the soft landing. I love that. I love being able to do that for people and I think it's a I think it's a gift that managers should be a should give to somebody if you really care about them, which is you sit down with them and say, "Hey, I just don't see this working." And I'd prefer to have this conversation with you now to give you the opportunity to find something else. Um rather than just, you know, pull the plug. >> And how long do you wait? Give them a month. >> Yeah, not that long. I mean, you know, we have the conversation and you know, you you agree on on what you think is is a is an appropriate amount of time, you know, but it has to have finality. Can't it can't drag on too long. But um but yeah, >> but their performance during that time is they're checked out. >> That's fine. I again I'm not expecting anything else but at least it gives them the opportunity and that's for me if I have to let somebody go that's always going to be the preference to be able to go that way. >> When it comes to promotions, what are some of the little things that employees might do that you're like that person could be promoted one day? >> Yeah. Well, there's there's two types of promotions. So one is you're promoted into a role where you're going to manage others and then that increasingly goes up and then there's just a promotion where um you have additional responsibility maybe a higher salary maybe another thing. So two two types so so so either one right so let's talk about the first one. So one you start identifying people like well that person has good people skills they probably could manage other people and and and do a great job of manage them and building up their skill set. Um so you have to have again purposeful conversation. You don't don't assume people can be managers. They have to be taught about delegation and coaching and feedback and and all those things, but um but they start showing the signs of it. They start showing the signs of um you know, if you have a new hire being onboarded, they're getting involved with that and and doing a great job. Um they're they're jumping in, they're helping out, those things, and you're like, you know, let's let's start having that conversation about you potentially being a manager and then what what has to happen in order for that to work. Um the other one is is they're just starting to show um advancement in their skill set. So, I hired them, you know, as an intern. I've I have a number of employees who hired as interns. Uh say hired as an intern. I'm like, "Wow, that person's a rockstar. Okay, I'm going to turn them into developer." And they're like, "Oh, they keep they they keep honing their skills. Now you're a senior developer." It comes with compensation. It comes with title, comes with expectations, right? So, you're you're getting more, but you have to give more. Um but you you keep your eyes open from that. It's also part of um retention is is is you know, people want to be recognized and one of the ways you recognize them is not just a gift card here, there, a little bonus here, there, but um making sure that they have career advancement. you know, they're able to to develop their skill set, move into further roles. It's hard when you're a small company, you don't have that many opportunities, but you have to find them. You have to find the ways, even if it's just a title change and a small bump in compensation along the way. Um, means a lot to people. >> You know, it's interesting there people don't really realize this. I think there are phenomenal salespeople. They are horrible sales managers. And then there are great sales managers who are horrible at sales. >> Yeah. I mean, most great sales people do not want to be sales managers. Most great engineers don't want to be engineering managers. >> I had to create tracks at >> very different skill sets. >> I had to create tracks at companies I worked for, big tech companies I worked for to ensure that there was a a career advancement for somebody who didn't want to be a manager and I would sit with them and I >> how do you do that? >> So let's use engineering for an example, right? So I go to engineer say you're you're amazing. Why don't you be an engineering manager? He goes because engineering manager means you believe I can make 10 more of me. >> You think I'm a cloning machine and it's true. That's what you expect from manage, right? You are so good at what you do. I want 10 more. He's like, I don't want to be bothered with that. I want to sit in code. So, what you do is it's almost like um they like in sciences like at a far at a pharmaceutical company, right? They'll have people just become bigger scientists, right? They become the chief scientist, right? They don't have any managerial responsibility, but in terms of responsibility, you know, they have so we create you can create a track where somebody goes an engineer, senior engineer, you know, uh and then become a chief architect or something along those lines where it's very clear they're not managing people, but the responsibility over the code and all those things are are huge. Same thing with in sal on the sales side, you know, somebody can become a VP of sales and not have any direct reports, you know, because you believe that the book of business that they're managing is just huge. Um, it's going to be helpful for them when they go to conferences and people see that they're VP of sales as but but again, same conversation, you know, I'll talk to sales manager. Hey, you want to you want to manage? No. Why? Because you I'm I'm doing $10 million. I remember a guy who was doing $15 million a year in sales. This guy could sell, you know, I still like I say amazing. Um, and remember multiple times I sat down with I said, "Come on." He had and he had such good techniques. And I was like, "I want you to teach those techniques." He goes, "Hey, teach techniques. I'll do that all day long. I'll do lunch and learns, all these other things, but I don't I don't want to be busy with trying to get that guy to $2 million in revenue and that guy $3 million. That guy, not responsibility. It's like it's like it's like it takes away from me being successful what I'm doing." And it's like, let me just sit here, crush it. Let me get a big paycheck at the end of every month and and don't bother me. And I think you have to create that that space for that to happen. I think you have to be able to if you want to be a company, you have to you can't assume everybody's wants a manager or is going to be a good manager. Um, but I agree with you. You know, sometimes you have people and their skill set is so much more on the managing side of people more than their coding. Like you're you're an okay coder, but you're really great with people. So, you get two benefits. Number one, you're great with people so you can manage a team. But number two, because you know coding, even though you may not be the best coder, um, you know what's good work and what's bad work. So, hey, why don't we make you a team lead? You'll have 10 engineers under you and you'll manage their workload and all those other important things. Um but yeah, I don't want to, you know, disparage any CTOs or but a lot of them probably would say like I'm not the best coder, you know, like it's like, oh, you're the CTO, you must be the best coder. Like, I haven't coded in 10 years. I don't, you know, I don't know, you know, but um but they but they manage really well. They manage workloads. They manage that stuff really really well. >> As we're getting closer to the end of the podcast, >> the end >> closer to the end. Um, how has your definition of success evolved from 12 years ago to today? >> I think when you when you're starting a startup, you you you fall in love with all those big numbers out there. Oh, that's a billion dollar company that got sold for this unicorn. >> Yeah, exactly. Everyone's busy with unicorns and um and and it's very dangerous because a lot of those things they're just inflated. Like even now I I I feel I'm very nervous right now with all the investments going on into AI and it's it's like you know a dream but it's not necessarily like real. >> Is that something that touches your industry? >> Sure. Touch everyone. Yeah. Touch everyone's industry. >> How? >> Um first of all simple AI coding. So so where people writing >> No, but on the on the front end for the customer. >> Yeah. I mean yeah there there'll be things we can build into our platform that make it much more efficient, make it easier to use, make it faster. Yeah. We have you have to be on top of things like that. But um but the valuations that some of these companies are getting. I was talking to a company the other day. They've got like $2 million in business and they got like a $100 million valuation. Yeah. It's it's it's and and and that just sets these expectations. >> Hold on. Is that a real thing? >> Well, it it wasn't only because of the the what they're doing and and but a lot with the people who started it. They were successful in the past. You know, the assumptions they'll be successful again. So, there's a little bit of that. But, I'm going to just say, but but bottom line is someone's still expecting to get their money back. Like, you put $100 million in, you're expecting two, three. Like, this company will one day have to be a billion dollar business for you ever get your money back. Like that's what happens in those situations. So, but when you start out, that's what it is. You have these you have these your dreams of all that and then and then it then slowly starts shifting and you realize like wait a second. If I build a successful business, I will have a successful outcome. Like that's just so so focusing on that so much. Stop focusing so much on what's my multiple, how much money can I get for the business, you know, this that like and almost like designing your business for that, right? I'm going to design my business so I get the highest possible valuation. Hey, let's let's make sure we talk about AI a lot on these like you know these pitch calls because you know AI is getting great multiples these days or something like that. Um you know or you know oh you know about five years ago say oh we we use blockchain and uh you know like oh yeah that's going to get a better valuation. Yeah. So so I think I think if you focus on building a successful product service company business you will have a successful outcome. those those will go as long as you have a good industry a big enough industry that you know from a financial perspective it's all going to work you've done your research and said this is a good place for the company to be um the the rest will fall in place so you don't so you just focus on less you just focus on your day-to-day >> and I think for my last question you said before you do not recommend someone to open a tech startup but for those people that already did any advice you would share with them >> yeah um so again you know you'll have to fight and claw offer those first customers. Um, and just take it slow. Just treat them like like gold. They're going to be your biggest advocates down the road. Like you have to understand that evolution. Like don't try to like get a lot of customers right away or too fast or anything like that. Like if you're really determined to do this there there's a blueprint out there and the blueprint is build a it's still like a fundamental business. Build a solid business, you know? So you you've got your product, you're starting to do this, that's great. Um, you know, get customers on as quickly as possible. Um, giving you feedback, providing that feedback. Treat, like I said, treat them like gold. make sure that they're happy. Um, they're not going to be happy day one. There things that are not going to work the way they want it to. That's fine. Keep iterating. Show them that you're on top of it. And then through that, you're going to build your business. Like that's how you're going to build your business. It's not going to be through marketing. It's not going to be through advertising. I don't know what the statistic is, but like almost no companies would do like, you know, Super Bowl ads like around anymore. Like that's not how you're building your business. Like if people just are happy, you have great retention. So there's metrics you can look at, you know, like customer retention and things like that. Um, so I would say yeah, you know, know know that stuff like understand what it's going to take to build a great software company. There are lots of people out there you can talk to and ask how to build great software businesses. I had many people I talked to and asked those questions to and um yeah, and if you're determined, you you you know, hopefully you'll be successful. But um but again, it's it's it's rare, so you have to be really really really uh cautious and careful about it. >> Wow, what a good episode. Avi, thanks for joining. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. Thanks for watching. Make sure to subscribe and we'll see you next time. >> [music]