I Built My First Company at 16 | Lessons That Fueled a $50M Empire Decades Later

The biggest that I have from Hashem is that he probably with the right of my father and my mother but my mother was yesterday and the the biggest thing that they thought us taught us is to walk between the drops. So I meant to say is we didn't get into trouble. It was very hard and I had to compensate a lot but I didn't get in trouble a lot. >> What type of marks were you getting on your tests? >> Um above 90. I was I'm smart. I'm smart. >> No but you need a focus to be able to study. >> I was very overcompensated. I've I I've learned a at a very young age probably at six seven that I physically need a pen and a pencil for me to be able to cope the day so I used to always write on my hands even later when I had kids I I learned how to deal with it exactly as a matter of fact in the 44 years of being ADHD I had twice where I tried medication and I tried it for maybe two three four days but I couldn't I couldn't I couldn't last because first of all I'm very skinny so it made me very weak and very schwack and you need that process of medication where it's like in you for a few months to be able to operate and I never gave it a chance. I rather fell back to what I thought myself that I need to do such as pen and paper and that's what I do. Or email is my best friend. People use monday.com. People use all these like you send me a task on WhatsApp, it's never going to get done. You send me an email, I go unopen to open and chop chop chop. If it's done, it's opened and it's gone. If it's not done, it's unopened and it stands there like a sore eye. [laughter] >> You feel me? >> Um, okay. Let me We don't really know each other. I met you in the shul in the building. I work upstairs. What were you doing there? >> My daughter goes every Monday. There's a play My mother was a play therapist. >> Okay. >> My mother, she was very smart in the sense that she used to use all the time says. So meaning to say is at 38 years ago she used to send us for psychology help which was nobody did that in our community at all. And she was there because she she used to say if he's gonna help you or she help he is going to help you or not I don't know but just for you burping it out that's what >> get out of your system. >> Exactly. Get out of your system. So my mother was a play therapist in the schools over here later in day later in life she went back for um for certificates. So my daughter goes to a play therapist up there on the fourth floor. So it ends up >> sorry that's my office. >> That's where your office is. So now I know why there's no milk for the coffee there anymore. I'm kidding. So I only drink one coffee a day. So there's So the So I go down for >> Got it. >> I try to be with the I try to be with the I try to be with the minion. So Minion is a big thing. So yeah, for me >> you walk out of the elevators, you'll see my office. There's a sign in the door. Blackbird recruiting. >> All right. I'll haunt you. >> Yeah. No. So what happened was I started this company, Blackbird, a few years ago. [snorts] And over the years I've had a lot of conversations with people calling me Totally. I need a job. Okay, fine. Are you currently working? Yes. So, why are you looking to leave? I need to make more money. My wife just had a baby, so go ask your boss for a raise. No, but I feel like I hit a ceiling or I just asked for a raise six months ago and my boss didn't. It's a lot of those conversations. So, I decided to start a podcast to have conversations with people either who are successful employees or employers. And these conversations will hopefully help employees learn how to become a better employee, more valuable, successful, indispensable. So hopefully they can make more money. That's the goal of why we started the podcast. >> Okay. Okay. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of the What It Takes podcast. Tilly Krauss here from Blackbird Recruiting. Today I'm very excited to introduce somebody I've wanted to have on the podcast for a long time. We don't know each other, but when I saw him dur during ML one time, I'm like, he's the guy I've heard about you. I've seen you around. We've never officially met. Amy Brier um built a successful business John to go portable toilets for events for construction sites. Their website says they service New York, New Jersey, and Florida. Um >> they should change that. >> Why it's more >> of companies in Utah and in the Carolinas and >> Okay, we're going to talk about all that. I'm excited. Um we're going to talk about how we built this business, what it takes to be a good employee and entrepreneurship, ups and downs, ADHD, should you start a company. Now you're in healthcare. No. >> Yes. We'll talk about all Okay. So, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Yes, people approach me all the time about different things. Um, not so much of the things that I want. I want to tell them how how handsome I look, but they don't say that. I'm kidding. >> Can I have some money? >> Yeah. So, sometimes you build a guard when somebody approaches you. And what I appreciate with the fact that you approached me, it took exactly 30 seconds. You said what you wanted. I answered, took my number. A week or two or whatever it is, we're here. So, I appreciate that. And >> why waste people's times? >> The biggest thing that helped me build companies, people always ask me is I hate procrastination. >> Okay. >> So, instead of doing things in three steps, do it in one step. I once had a chief operating officer that used to work for PepsiCo. >> Okay. >> And he said the biggest thing that he've learned from big corporate companies versus small mom and pops like we build like we try to do is that BCO has meetings about meetings. Typically in mom and pops you have meetings about solutions. >> Yeah. Or it's an email if it's an email. You got it done. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I have not heard the podcast before. You did send me a link. I looked at it and I was pretty impressed. Thank you. >> One of the things I was very impressed is on the podcast, this part of the room looks pretty dark and it looks so nice and lit. >> In editing, show them like a pan of the room, see what's going on. >> But no, very good. And it we're living we're living in a day and age that you could, you know, one of the podcasts I was on there was an argument if somebody has to go to college and I know you went to college >> one semester I failed miserably. >> Oh, awesome. That's great. Yeah. So again, at the end of the day, maybe that was your college because >> I don't think it's necessary. Honestly, >> it's not necessary. And we had this argument once in one of the one of the colleges and I I I kept on saying that you don't technically need it but because you could learn anything and everything today. So therefore for the ones that will be seeing this podcast I appreciate it for them that you are basically putting it out there. >> I'll tell you Kevin Olirri um from Shark Tank he thinks that one of the I think it's him or Mark Cuban thinks one of the benefits of going to college is the relationships that you're building during college. These people you're going to stay friends with them for a very long time. Number one. Number two, co most colleges the curriculum, the structure is a scam. There's no reason in the world why if you want to become a doctor, you need to learn about certain um you need to take certain classes that have almost zero relationship to the medical space. I wanted to become a pediatrician. >> Oh, cool. >> Yeah. Um >> you're probably good with kids. >> I'm great with kids in Shul. I run the Tahill program, the Dominic program. We do prizes. Yeah, I love it. >> Um the candy man. So, um, I went one semester, I failed miserably. I was just doing a lot during that time in my life. Trying to become an EMT, I was dating, I was working full-time plus college. It was just a lot. >> Um, but since, yeah, I mean, college mo most if you want to do today there are microcredentiing schools and there's also trade schools, which is a very big deal. I wish more Yeen went to trade schools. mechanic, plumbing, electrical, bluecollar type of work where >> I was gonna open ones like that something like that. It's very important especially today's day and age where you have a bunch of the boys the bakaram that they don't want to stay in yeshiva but they do want to have somewhat of a connection to hashem so they want to dab them with minion they want to learn but they can't do it full day and or if they do it full day but at the end of the day they just feel like blah I didn't I didn't get to anything right so if you have half a day a part of the two hours three four and you teach them something that they may not get into that business they may not become a mechanic but there isn't anyone that would say I hate my life for learning how to fix something like it's always great to have it So it's something that I think it's very necessary and I think one of the reasons why it failed in our community is because the ones that did try to do it they tried to do it either in an aspect where it's a nonforprofit and it's like a big Rahmanas thing or it's a big you somebody should make it as a business and and >> someone is doing it already for architects interior designers and accounting a in Brooklyn I think does for those three careers >> that's right I mean out of the three out of the three things two the architect and and the and the bookkeeping that's great accounting is great. The designing it's it's very hard to make money in designing. I mean some do but it's very hard to make money in designing. >> But if they could add on more it's definitely encourageable because at the end of the day kids today uh we live in a world where unfortunately money is something and who you are is something and somewhat who you are depends on money and to have that that courage that you have something in back of your head that you can actually do it's it's it's accomplishing it's a head start. and licensing. I look I'm an EMT. Um I went to the class to become an A certified. So there's like this between the medics and the basic that there used I don't know if it's still around but there used to be one. I'm a helicopter pilot and I'm a my Cessna licensing. I just wanted to have licens. >> In a plane so we could do the next one in a plane or a helicopter but helicopter you need all your hands and your feet and you can't really maneuver like that. >> The joystick. >> The joystick. Yeah. So, um, no, licensing is amazing. Just to be able to know that you have something tucked under your belt regardless if you're going to use it or not, it gives you a sense of accomplishment. And to give you a little bit about that is that I once heard and I try to use it, the difference between somebody that's successful, somebody that's not successful. So, a non-success unsuccessful person if he looks to buy a house and finally he founds finds the house that he wants and finally he gets it, you know, an agreement on the price and he puts it on the contract, he's not celebrating. He's basically now worried what's going to be with the loan or what's going to be with the down payment, what's going to be with the this and the that and the other and the whatever. A successful entrepreneur, especially entrepreneur. Every step of the way, they celebrate. And the fact is, celebrations bring more celebrations. We got an agreement on the price. Let's celebrate. We got on the momentum. We got on the contract. Let's celebrate. We found how we're going to get the down payment. Let's celebrate. Celebration brings celebration, >> right? >> So, it's very important. Um was was building John to go your first in step into the world of business? >> So depends the category. Depends what you call the category of business. So when I was 56 years old okay W2 >> no not full-time job. >> I full-time job. So I I did sell a company when I was 16 years old and I sold it for $25,000. I did build >> 16 years old selling the business for 25K. >> 25K. I sold a computer company. It's still around. I know the guy that bought it still sells computers and he branched out more to software now, but it's called Hudson Computers USA. I couldn't get the Hudson Computers because somebody had already like computers domain. It wasn't domain then, but just to incorporate it. >> So, I had to do Hudson Computers USA and I was simply buying these boxes and motherboards and and graphic cards and memory cards and putting them together. And when a desktop used to cost $3,000, it used to sell for $2,500, whatever the case is. And I had orders and I had a lot of fun doing it and for sure my friends around me because they all had sandwiches and dinners and trips to go to because we had money. But um so I did that but after >> why did you sell the business? >> I sold the business because at that I went to learn in essent I I I I became I had periods in my life which in I think everybody should be that way in a sense where when I do something in in a way I'm a pretty naive person. I become very serious. I'm a one thing. I can't do 17 things at once. I can I'm a very good multitasker, but I I put my energy into one thing. So, if I'm going to learn, I'm leaving everything behind. I'm going to be this now. I'm And I was I was the baker that only ate the I went to every uh and I was like real serious into it. After a year, my over there didn't think it was that good of a idea. I was there >> so I came back. But that's the reason why I sold it at the time. >> How'd you find the buyer? So the guy that I actually sold it to, he was a type setter at the time and now he's married 20some years old and I needed credit cards to be able to buy these products like the and my like my father was supporter but he never had like the means to do that. So I used to used to use his credit cards at the time the points came out so he made some points on it and used to pay him and and we enjoyed that relationship. We used to smoo all the time and figure stuff out. So when I was going to sell it he was like you know what I know exactly what you do and how you do it. I'm doing type setting anyway. I'm in the computer world anyway. So he bought it. I'm excited to talk to you today about United Fua Health Share. If you are spending thousands of dollars every single month on health insurance, this is an alternative for the firm community. You should go check them out. It's not health insurance. It's a health share program. Me and my wife and our family, we switched over about two years ago. We've saved thousands of dollars. Our our premium or or the cost is $500 a month. They only use the word premium because whatever those terminology is meant more for health insurance, but for the first 10 listeners who are watching this video and going to sign up using code blackbird, you're going to get your third month free. So that's something I'm very excited to share with you guys. Make sure to go check them out. United Rafua Health Share. See you next time. >> How did you get into the portable toilet business? >> H So I I only really had one job working for a company that wasn't my company. >> Woo. and you too >> W2 >> W2 so no I'm getting a W2 today even too from all the companies but yeah but I wasn't >> at a place where I was risking to get fired let's put it this way >> so I was working for a guy an amazing guy I I still hear stories about him he's not alive anymore but I still hear stories about him of a guy he had a janitorial company called AAA Supplies at the time when I worked with him this was in Newberg New York okay >> and we were selling mostly the the idea was to nursing homes and hospitals My end of it is I I brought in hotels and school systems and the bids and these types of things. And the goal was to sell $100,000 a week in order to be able to make money like for the commissions part of it. I was there for about a year and a half. So that was one job. But while I was there, I was also buying real estate in Hartford, Connecticut. >> So how I was doing both? I was buying >> how were you buying real estate when you know >> so I was buying real estate because the one of the things that that I have in my head is that the I I usually have a very I'm going to back up for a second. I'm older now and I I told my kids last week we were learning a piece of Maran on on uh on Amuna and talking and and and I told them that I wish I would have known these things when I grew John to go. Life would have been a lot easier. Maybe this three white hair wouldn't have been here. But at that point or in anything, you want to have clarity how you're going to do it. What's point A? What's point B? So meaning to say is let's say if you're buying a piece of real estate, one of the things that you want to have clarity on. So who's going to be your attorney or who's the broker or what's going to be the entity name you're going to buy it on? Simple clarities that you could have. You don't have to say that it's me only. You just need to know clarity. How am I going from step one to step 20? Otherwise, it's just not happening or you're dragging or you're or you're procrastinating. You know, you don't want to do that. So I I used I used to love real estate. Something in my head, I still love real estate. Something in my head tells me that like to be king of the castle like like is owning property. I I always had that love to own properties. I like nice cars, but cars was never my thing. It's like it depreciates. I don't know. It was never the thing. Real estate was always my my love. >> So, um I used to and I don't come from a background that has it. My brother actually had a little bit of real estate. My brother, which was my partner in John to go, he had a little bit of real estate. And as I was driving to get here, when I grew up here, so you grew up in Brooklyn, but I grew up here, this place was shootings. There was He owned on Batune. He owned over here. He owned some houses where you you couldn't go collect your rent yourself. You went with like a group of people. That's how bad it was. But still, I I loved real estate. And what I was going to say is that my my my my parents never owned real estate. I mean, they had their house. >> How did you get into the business and we'll give you 20 grand? >> No, no, no, no. So, what happened was is that I I uh ended up buying my first building which was a 24 unit mixeduse property. It was only $400,000. >> How did you have any experience in real estate? >> I did not, but I was convinced that I do. I know now that I want >> How did you get the money for the >> money was like this? I read a book then from the Reichmans in Toronto. They built Battery Park. It was a big kashm that they didn't build Friday afternoon until the and they and they got there they got it done faster than the projected date. It was crazy kisham in the New York Times. It was crazy. So, I read a book about them and they said over there in most deals, obviously if the price makes sense, most people would get nitty-gritty on the dollars, 5,000 up, 5,000 down. And people don't realize $5,000 or $10,000, even $100,000 on a big deal over the course of 25 or 30 years amization of that loan, it makes no difference. I mean, it makes a difference, but peanuts, >> right? >> Negotiate the terms. >> So, I was Loopnet as a website is what came out at the time. This was 2000. Maybe it came out in 9798. I don't remember, but it was very, very new. And the concept that this the world is becoming so small in front of your eyes, you could actually see deals in California that but you would have never known unless you have a broker that you could talk on the phone to or or you get the New York Times of LA whatever it is and you see the real estate classified. So the world became so small and to for me it was such an excitement to see these buildings and over here the same size building is like in Manhattan the 24 unit building is millions and over here it's 400,000 and if it's if it's an added value building because you have to put in money. It gave me that rush and and I saw myself becoming wealthy like like I could buy it and I could rehab it and I could sell it and I it gave me that dream like that. >> It's like they say the there isn't there isn't a rich person that's rich because of his bank account and there isn't a poor person that's poor because of his bank account. rich and poor is in here. So I was rich, but I just didn't have a penny, you know. So, so that's the excitement that it gave me. So what happened was is that I found that building and it was actually listed in the New York Times classifies on the real estate back in the day. Loopnip was there, but back in the day, anything in the tri-state area that somebody wanted to sell, they listed on the classifides in the New York Times. And that was on Sundays. And Sunday, the New York Times was like a gamarra. It was like a Bible like so. So I used to buy it then I used to go through them. So the deals that were good or bad but it was millions of dollars was irrelevant to me. I mean they could be a gold mine but I I still couldn't I I still couldn't see how I could syndicate it. >> And but this was a 400,000 you know $400,000 was 24 units and it was easy to put together. So I went to them and went I went to the showing. I remember it was a Tuesday and there was maybe 20 investors came to look at the building and I was like ah man like so I asked the broker to take me to the seller and he brought me downtown Hartford and I sat down with the guy he was uh portra from Portugal very nice guy Carlos I can't remember his last name his name was Carlos very nice guy they owned a bunch of buildings this building they bought for like nothing off the tax lot and they uh rehabbed it but was more or less empty and I said to him I said look you want $400,000 I'll give you $400,000 but we got to make a deal. So, I I'll give you $25,000 to get into contract. I'll give you another $25,000 when we close. So, now we don't need a mortgage. So, I could close fast. I close in in a month. And then I'll give you $50,000 six months in. I'll give you another $50,000 six months in. So, in a year in, you're only going to be 50% LTV loan to value because it's a $400,000 loan. At that point, I gave you already 2001 150 to it was another six months for 50. So, basically, you'll be at 50% and we'll do it that way. And um and he liked me and he said, "Okay, deal." So, uh, so I said, "Deal, use the local." >> This was doing it while working full- time. >> I was working full-time then. So, I was buying this building and then he sold me another building, a 30-unit building, which I ended up buying for a very low down payment because I realized at the time that he had a very high mortgage on it based on what he needed for it. And I basically assumed the loan. I didn't technically assume the loan. He he he gave me over the rights. He basically gave me the LLC and and he basically trusted me that I'll make the payments like that. So, when I had about 100 units, I I had to quit. I couldn't I couldn't do the job anymore. But 100 doesn't make you money. That means just that you're rich on pay rich on paper that doesn't pay your bills. >> You have a lot of debt. >> I always had a lot of debt. >> No, 100 is a lot of >> debt. Yeah. 100 is a lot of debt. Yeah. So, so, so you have that but then so so that was the first major thing that happened that I left over there. John to go happened about four years later. So, so now so now we're talking about 2021 that area >> 2021 2001. Sorry. 2001. See, I'm trying to be younger than I am. 2001 [clears throat] in 2024 >> 2004 >> 2004 sorry I that's when we that's when I opened up John to go and opened up John to go with a partner and um we opened it up in September of 2004 and we went >> who was this partner >> so I'm not going to say name but very nice guy um a year older than me he learned the yeshiva together with me >> with him >> no so what happened was is that at that time there was a little here in spring was like you have over here a bunch of little offices So there was also a place like that that had a bunch of little offices. Each office rented for like $400 or $500, I can't remember. And all of us were working, somebody in construction, somebody in real estate, something somebody else. And we had our own offices. We were hustlers. We were hustling at the time. And we didn't have, you know, anybody working for us and so on. We used to come in, let's say, in Mat Shabas and do all the paperwork for the week and then the week. We I at least for me, I was in Connecticut all week to make a difference. And um so we used to get together a lot in Smooth. So like lots of shops when we used to work we used to order order in pizza and smoo and they constantly used to bug me like I used to have all these grand amazing business ideas which most of them you can't bring to fruition. It's not never going to happen but just amazing ideas. What if? What if? What if? What if? So they kept on bugging me like let's do something in partnership. Let's do something in partnership. So when I had this idea um I asked one of the guys and he said yeah he would love to be a partner. And if I remember correctly, um, if I remember correctly, I think we had to put in $160,000 was the initial opening. So it was like buying the first truckload of toilets, which was 112 toilets. It comes unassembled on a tractor trailer and a truck and your licensing and your insurance. The problem was is that we started right before the winter. And in the winter if you don't know what you're doing, at least if you're in the east coast, it becomes ice cream on ISIS and your truck becomes an ice cream on an ISIS and everything busts and you can't go service. No Portage Johns. So we went through that winter and it was brutal. And the worst part was that the truck we bought because we were cheap, we bought a stick shift truck and between me and him, I'm the only one that knows how to drive stick shift. So he used to follow me sometimes when the drivers didn't come in and we had to cover in his car and heat and I was driving the truck. So at some point we realized it's just not going. So he turned to me and he said after the winter he said listen hey this this ain't for me like like if you if we need to close it I understand let's liquidate but if you want to just buy me out just give me back my 80 grand and I'm out. Okay so I didn't have any money at the time and I wasn't necessarily heartbroken because I work well with partners but I also realized real soon that this is just not an equal partnership. I'm I'm a hustler. I I love doing this. So So I ended up pitching this. So I ended up I was doing the real estate and I was actually selling a building that we rehab together with my brother. My brother was the investor which is my John to go partner was the investor and I had to give him back something like 80 grand or something. So I said instead of giving it back would you want to become a partner in this? And he said well give me the numbers. He's a very you know detailed person and I had to give him an Excel sheet or whatever the case is and he talked through with his accountant whatever he did he's older than me 11 years older than me and um >> and he came back and said all right I want to become a partner >> the in >> in the John to go. So he is my partner still. Well, now we have a bunch of partners with private equity, but up until the day he's we were partners still. >> What's it like working with family? >> So I always tell this to people, especially for people that know my brother. When you work with somebody that's a real good guy, like you're a Shmayam, you have zero issues regardless who he is. And it's not me, it's him. [laughter] So So he has patience. He I'll explain something. You know how they say that most of your issues, most of your troubles, most of your digest, most of your um how do you do digest properly in English, most of your headaches, we take on on ourselves, we take on ourselves and I've seen it in and I've seen it with my kids. So, I have married kids. I have grandkids. Wow. >> And um and I remember some of the kids when they were growing up and in my book it felt like they're they're they're not successful in school or they're going they they're going the wrong way and so on. and mamish I couldn't sleep at night because what's happening next and what's going to go next until I stopped for a second I said whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa says who it's okay and if that's the case maybe that's what needs that maybe that's the kid's journey or whatever the case is that's what Hashem wants and everything went away I went back to sleep and everything goes fine so so what I'm saying is is that in partnerships many many many things why we argue is because we have shortcomings in our own mind of thinking that this is the thing and that's the thing and that's what I need to catch him on and that's where the problem is. And what I've learned over the years and I know my brother has it, trust me, he had me as a partner and if you basically say, you know what, I'm looking at the big picture and I've learned this when we sold one of the companies to private equity and I wasn't the manager anymore and I wasn't the person dealing with everything and my kids were were asking me but Tati this but Tati that and I said listen what I've learned is that I know very well how to run the company but that doesn't mean that I know the best way how to run it. Maybe they know better way how to do it. That's fine. We are basically focusing on the endgame and other reports. If it gets done, it's like I always tell my employees, I said, "Look, this and this has to happen. Now, if you want to go this way, go this way. If you want to go this way, go this way. Just get it done." And the same token is you have to tell your employees that I don't pay you to work hard. You want to work hard, knock yourself out, they have no issue with that. I pay you for stuff to get done. So, if you figure out a way to do it with your feet up on the table, ain't concerning me. So that's a little bit the concept with working with partners that if you get to the point where you become nittygritty in what's happening and it becomes like a t like a tick to it's not a distraction. It gets into your head and then becomes a resentment and then it becomes a problem. With that said, >> if you realize that you can't work with the partner, don't let it drag out. Cut it right there. >> Right. >> Don't let it drag out. So, >> how did you um people don't realize a lot of people go into partnerships then it goes bad and I heavily heavily recommend call a lawyer like discuss all the challenges potential challenges early on so if something comes up you know what to do >> doesn't message >> but I'll tell you even more than that so I have a call today with two partners I'm I'm flying to Miami soon so I have a call today at 5:15 on my way to the airport so they wanted to take me to the airport but thank you very much I like going myself but uh I I need I like the quiet of my car of my space. I want that. But and what I always like to do with partners, and I'm saying it about these two partners, two great people. They're actually classmates and they did great and the world that they're in and so on. And I always like to take it the other way around. Says, okay, what's the worst case scenario? What's the best case scenario? So, the case is that in in you you're very few going to find a partner where they have a $100 million venture and there's an argument or there's a fight or there's something that's unresolved. You're gonna find it where there's an argument or a question and a few hundred thousand dollar maybe maybe a few million dollars nothing major. So now let's put it in in perspective. Let's say it's a million dollars net and the question is 500,000 500,000 at best case scenario. Okay. So first recognize the number is not it's it's not that I am right or you're right. The results of it may not be so significant that it may not be worth your agar and everything. So first recognize what this is. If it would have been $50 million, yeah, people would kill for $50 million. But we're dealing with a couple hundred thousand. Okay, let's chillax for a minute and let's see how we could get as close as we can. The second thing about you technically do when you come with partners is you go, you start saying, "Okay, you admit to this, you admit to this and you get them as close as close as close and close and then you see how far that gap that you need to gap is." Usually that gap is not that far, right? >> It just becomes so much noise. >> I hope you're enjoying today's podcast. Today's episode is sponsored by Blackbird Recruiting. Chad GPT, what do you think about Blackbird Recruiting? >> Blackbird Recruiting, the team that finds you the right people so you can stop wasting time on resumes that look like they were written by someone's dog. If you're a business owner struggling to find top talent, let Blackbird do the heavy lifting. They'll help you find candidates who actually get it. Visit blackbirdrecruiting.com and let them take your hiring game to new heights. >> You heard it here first. Enjoy the rest of the episode. >> It's 2004. John to go is starting. >> Oh, I forgot where I am. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. I'll bring you back. >> So 2004, >> you bring your brother into the business. >> So bring your brother into the business. So we were then we were a small company. I mean, if I got to tell you, we >> small. So we're going to talk numbers and small and then we could get to then when we can't talk numbers anymore. We're going to talk about how many Porter Johns and trucks. Okay. So small numbers. So we start in 2004. So now we're in 2005. 2005 at best if we did 400,000 in gross revenue that's probably the most I still have the tax return so I can >> but you still need to pay off your investments. >> So no. So what so you Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so so the biggest problem. So let me back up for a second. People ask me always about opening a company and it's not my word and it's I just like to preach it or talk about it is that you have to understand difference between a company and a gig. And the harshest way to understand between a company and a gig is so if you get hit by a bus is the company still there or not? It's not a company you know like that. So now the answer on that is is that when you grow a company especially in the service based business which we were in protoon is a service based business. It's a service I provide I provide. So there's a couple things we could talk about service based businesses but service businesses are the easiest to survive if you do the right thing. So there's a couple of things that could break you and these are one of the things that we were looking to avoid when when I got into the business. The one thing is that you see over here there's a dime a dozen plumbers, electricians, IT people, low voltage people, blah blah blah because these these are service business. But the the thing though is is that it's very hard for you to very it's very easy to create your competition because every good manager you have potentially could get into it because you don't really need much to open up a company like that. If you know how to fix AC's and you are readily available and you're easy to work with and you're people's person, you're going to have customers and if you're doing the right thing, the customers are going to pay you. It's simple as a pimple. It's one plus one. It's that that it that's it. So that's a service-based business, but it's very hard to regulate or to as much as you can hold it like in the family per se. In a business like Porter John's or many other things like tents or that you need inventory, it's a lot harder to say that somebody is physically going to put together millions of dollars or hundreds of thousands of dollars investment >> and to to put the investment in to go into what toilet business. Hello >> like that. >> So significant overhead >> significant overhead. So but service based businesses give you the largest the largest net I the largest net that's what it gives you. So when you have manufacturing and they do a net of 8% in service based business you could get 38% easy right so it gives you a lot what to work with now mind you 38% of $400,000 is not a lot of money but it's something that's the other thing the other thing with service based businesses is in most of these companies you start turning a profit turning a profit doesn't mean you could buy them off there turn a profit doesn't mean that you could buy a new car turning turn a profit means that if I put in a $100 and I have 10 cents I turn the profit right service business is one of the easiest companies to actually turn a profit it fast because again all I always like to joke all I had to do is is that I have a portag john you need a portag john I take it from my yard and I drop it on your driveway you pay me a hundred bucks it's that simple right so and and there's a gazillion such companies now with that said is that it's very easy to turn a profit but and here comes the butt the butt is that if you basically grow the business faster than the profits you're bringing in you're creating debt and that's what that's what our issue always >> um I'm just making some notes for questions. >> Sure. ADHD the ADHD. >> Um >> so that's that portion. >> How do you start scaling? >> H very good. Very good. So scaling. So scaling is a lesson that everybody needs to have in general. You need to you need to have a lesson in scaling. Basically what does scaling mean? And then you come down a little bit more in detail. How do I scale? And then you come down even more in detail. How do I scale in my world? what I do. Okay. So, I say always that we we ran John to go ourselves, my brother and I, from 2005. So, we started 2004. He came in 2005 up until 2023. >> Wow. 20 19 years. >> 19 years. We're still we're still partners in the company. We're just not operating, not active. I mean, we're board members, but yeah. Now what happens is in a company like that and in any other company is and I always say this that the company that became so you're talking about 10 to 15,000 Porter Johns you're talking about hundreds of trucks you're talking about hundreds of employees you're talking about a big company >> revenue >> range >> 50 million >> range okay >> um so what happens is is that for us it happened the last five years before 2023 happened before we took on partners. Meaning to say is that for the first 13, 14, 15 years of the company, we were grinding. And you know why? Because we didn't know what scaling means. I knew what scaling means. I'm not a dummy. >> You knew you needed it. >> I knew what I needed it. I knew I wanted it. But the scale of my head was that I wish PPC is going to pop me out a lead from a company that has 400 Porter Johns in Manhattan and he's pissed off at his as with his existing vendor and he gives us the job. Okay. 400 Porter John is $40,000 a month. $40,000 a month. That's $480,000 a year. That ain't scaling. When you talk about scaling, you're talking about going from five million in revenue to 10 million in revenue in 12 to 18 months. That's scaling. You're talking about scaling is from being a company that does, let's say in 2015, $5 million in revenue, and in 2019 they do $35 million of revenue. That's scaling. So, I knew scaling, but you really need to know scaling. And you need a table like this with a bunch of with a piece of paper, big piece of paper, and basically saying being out of your mind. If I do now a million dollars, I have x amount of customers, x amount of trucks, x amount of toilets or tents or whatever you do. It's irrelevant or people that you're recruiting people recruiting. How many people do I have to bring into how many jobs? Because my average pay is at $12,000 because my average job that I deliver is at $90,000. My average whatever I get 15%. Whatever you get and you basically put it out there and you do it the total opposite. You go, okay, so if I want to become a 50 million revenue company, okay, now math on the same dollar that I get per customer, how many customers do I need? How many toilets do I need? How many? And then you start working backwards. >> And that's your goal. >> And that's your goal. And that's where that day it changed everything. And why that happened is actually a story. >> Let's hear >> what happened. >> So what happened was that we always ran our companies. There was once a uh there was I can't remember the full story, but I'm just going to give you the the the the gist of this. So there was once a story that there was a guy that he had you know he had you know family with kids and they were alum Toyota they sat in coil or whatever they was and he was obviously was supporting them was a wealthy person was supporting them and his issue was like many of us today and I suffer from the same issue is that the street takes you or they um perceives you at a lot bigger is than you are and you just from the phone calls to the requests to the you get bombarded It's like very it's it's like celebrity life in a sense because people want and with all rights in the world and you should be thankful that you could be on that side of the coin and so on. But I always ask people when they give me a braha that they should give me a braha that my heart and my package should work together like my heart is there but you know like that but so he had the same issue that he was living in a state and he was perceived as a biggest that he is and big Russia shivas used to fly into medium and he was just running away from people because he didn't have the money to give him and at some point he asked I think the question went to satar but they asked the question and said like I I'm already giving to my kids are sitting and learning and and and I'm you know I'm supporting them and there's a kila this and that and so on and so forth. I can't remember the end of the story, but I'm saying it in terms of business. Operate your business very open-minded as if you are who you're going to be when you want to whom you want to be. Like I always wanted to be that $100 million company. So, we were operating at $400,000 with that same notion. The way our trucks were painted, the way our literature was printed, the way we spoke to customers, the confidence we gave to customers and to our employees, the the way we wrote everything. You can't lie, but you could put it there on a way where if somebody looks at you versus looks at somebody else. And we used to look at these websites from these humongous huge companies, they looked as if they are us and we look like we are them. That's how you need to do it. So at some point in 2017, it was I think a guy which happens to be is a friend of mine. He he may even see this podcast at some point. It's very very very funny. His wife is actually so he's not Jewish. His wife is and he his wife is actually an anle from Mosha Matafuri's brother very interesting and he was once in my house for Khaneka with his wife and kids two kids now I have three kids >> and I I have collectible items like uh you know first edition and then you know I don't buy coins or or pots and pans manuscripts >> manuscripts and stuff and I took him down I showed him a whole collection of maturi letters that went from England to the you know the nia with Helas like crazy stuff and he went crazy. He took pictures sent to his father-in-law. It was like it's not that many generations. He was explained to me like maybe four or five generations until by it's very interesting. >> He was in the 1800s. >> Yes. Very interesting. I'll tell you an interesting other thing is up until a couple years ago there was a co on his by his where he was buried still from a fund that he left he died without kids. >> Right? So there was could you imagine somebody had this for 150 years learning learning from him and his wife >> that's crazy >> and he didn't grow up religious >> he became biva crazy there's an amazing story about him I I don't know how much your uh your audience wants to hear but there's an amazing story about him which I tell my kids all the time my father told to me and it's a story that we have to learn we have to preach it every single day so he had a that was a religious person like he knew like uh where the is and he made his own money like like that and so on and at some point he gave so much money to that he wanted to go on the harabas um by the kul on the harabas and his gaba and and if I'm not saying it correctly you know if anybody wants to on the comments on YouTube they could they could but so basically he he was told that if you're in a box and people carry you then although we'rema today like like then you could go on the harabas so he did that and the rabbon in your condemned him They put him and the first thing is that the first is of the story is is that the rabbon who lived off of him he was the main sponsor of dia all the time a time where people were dying for hunger in maybe today's day and age yes or no I don't know they be like ah well we can't do it blah blah blah said no what's right is right what's wrong is wrong and if we have to condemn and put them they put him they did that and the second thing is what do you think he did >> he apologized >> he apologized took off his shoes. The whole process took off of his shoes. So they had to spit into it in the front of him and whatever the case is really he did that >> that's two amazing parts of the story of what we need to learn every day. That is unbelievable. Anyway, >> so what happened was is that at some point I get a phone call from this guy. His wife is an an from the Monte Furies. So I get a phone call from him and he says he's a writer for the New Yorker magazine which at the time that I don't know what they do now. They print 1.2 million copies a week. Forget about online. They print. And it said that we're doing an article on one of the portable toilet companies and we want to write about five the five largest portable toilet companies in you know in New York City. >> Okay. >> And he says I know I'm writing about that one. So I need that one. I know you're one of them. I like not even I wasn't doing 10% even of that >> but he said it to me because we perceived ourselves that way. We were >> operating that way. We we kept our prestige that way. And then the other companies and so on. So he basically did an article and it was a very fun article. So you can look it up if you search my name on Google you can see it. He did another article about us in in co that was later and after that article came out it was very um it was very good to see he wrote about like um Abe is a Harry you know English well Harry meaning wired the wired um a wired portable toilet. So for the worlds of worlds this is like so odd like so so we started getting phone calls from TV shows, reality shows and private equity everybody started calling us. So private equity, we had an issue because if they really see our numbers, they're like, "Okay, knock yourself out." >> When was this? >> 2017. >> Wow. >> And so we had 2017 into 2018. And I I had one phone call from a very nice gentleman. They ran a private equity in Toronto and he called up and he said, "We want to duplicate so- and so private equity that build this huge mega3 billion dollar portable toilet company by combining all these little companies." and he gave us a formula of what so I'm going to back up for a second. People don't realize that the reason why you want to have a big company is not because okay I'm a big company I'm doing a lot more sales I have more net because in big companies the general answer of the bigger you are the bigger problems you have that happens you become so big when payroll becomes $500,000 a week $2 million a month you have no room for error I mean you have too many people uh you know relying on you but the reason why you want to be a big company is because when you trade on the M&A world and the mergers and acquisition world If you're the bigger you are the higher multiple for your company you get. So we didn't understand it at the time. >> What's the multiple like companies are getting? >> So in general the size we were then we were going to be 3 to 5x. So let's say 3x 4x something of your net not even growth of your net. >> When you become a size bigger let's say at 10 million net you're basically trading between 10 and 12 >> which means if you're doing it right you could buy all these smaller companies tuck them under your company and then you become all that money. That's why they they they teached us. But >> but they do an exit. >> They do an exit. The problem is is that you could only do that under talking if you are actually considered in the worlds of worlds. It's considered a platform company. If your company is not strong enough and you're talking on you're going under without >> customer service a lot policies, processes, procedures, software, everything. And and even more than that, I'll give you another tip for anybody that's in M&A. What happens is that if you buy let's say you are 10 million net IBITA and you go go and you buy eight million IBITA that's very very risky because if that 8 million IBIT you made a mistake in your due diligence and that tumbles it take it'll take you with you you would buy two three four max 5 million ITAS you would buy max half of what you are let's put it this way right >> but they gave us that education and that deal never went through >> but at that point we were like ahuh so that's where we went back on paper said $50 million why do we And after we had it, my brother and I, we had it on paper. It's very simple, wasn't a big paper, an Excel sheet. >> We sat down with the top people that we had in the company then. The company then was 30 people, maybe. Maybe. >> And we sat down with him, guys. >> What were we doing in revenue then? Five million >> maybe. >> Maybe. >> And uh Yeah, maybe five million. Yeah. So then, so then we sat down and we told everybody said, "Look, this is the next fiveyear plan and we're going to get this done." >> Did you break it down by monthly, quarterly, annually, or just five years? >> No. So we said that we're going to So very good question. So in most companies it's very hard to break it down. So you can't say five years because then you're snoozing at the wheel. >> You have to do something which is deliverables like like uh true deliverables on a daily or some companies even on an hourly basis. The problem is you can't do it monthly or yearly because in any business especially in my business especially being in the east coast is that the winter is slower than the summer. But what you do is you do monthly month over month from last year. So two measurables that you do month over month from last month. So January more than December and January compared to January 2025, right? So you do it that way. But the goal was is that yeah, if we had a clear calculation that if we grow basically let's say at 20% month over month, right? Then we could get there in three years. If we grow by 10%, which is 120% of the company on a year, then we could Exactly. So So it's not even it's not really six years because what happens is that once you get to the bigger numbers, your 10% goes faster. >> Compounding. >> Compounding. But the problem is once you get to that number you start to plateau because how many times can you go from 5 million to 10 million 10 million to 20 to 20 to 40 40 to 80 doesn't go 5 to 10 you could do 10 to 20 you're stretching yourself right so what do you do then >> so in a company like me is one way and a company like Amazon is a different way is either you bring in more products or you green field new locations or you buy out another person there's all these different options you could do depending on the world you're in >> so what happened was so so we ended so we ended up getting to the goal in three years and we ended up making a deal with everyone that at the time we get to that number and we end up doing a merger or something to that nature, we will pull together about 3% of the sale. So if it's a $50 million sale, we'll put together $ 1.5 million and everybody that sits at this table, which the executive level is four people like nobody, right? >> We'll split it up between you guys. And we did. >> One person walked away with a check of $430,000. >> They didn't stay involved in the business. >> Some are, some aren't. I want to talk about employees. >> Sure. >> Um, >> that's your love. You want to talk about >> No, no. Like people listening to this, there's a lot of people coming from our communities that don't have a proper background, don't know what it means to become a really good employee to do well. I've met employees making close to half million dollars a year started from being a secretary. >> So, going back, were there what were things that you were looking for when you were hiring? uh when you did have employees that like you wanted to keep them for forever. What was it that spoke to you? >> What are things that you saw employees do that like oh wow >> more people need to do this >> right? >> So >> you didn't grow your business without employ no no. It was a lot of work and a lot of energy and a lot of all of it sataya but definitely a big portion of it is employees and the customers. But you have to understand something that you could only make a deal with pulling money together to do a payout like that with people you you could you could actually work with. If you can't get to the table with them, it's just not going to happen. They're going to drag you down, right? Okay. So, as a as a hagda, as a uh >> intro intro, >> I'm a very bad hireer and I'm going to tell you why. >> Trust everybody. >> I'm a very positive person. So as the person talks, I'm already creating what potential this person could have and I'm creating in my own head and and I've never communicated to them. >> That's exactly what you mean. Okay. >> And I'm a very bad fighter, >> right? >> Because I because again it goes back to the positivity, but at the end of the day, I can't take negativity. It just doesn't work with me and like that. But I've learned to do both. >> Okay. >> Okay. So when you hire, you have to have a grain of salt. You have to look at the person with, okay, what are the bad things that going to happen? What is not right? What am I mistaking myself? Okay, we're going to go back to this for a second. When you fire, and my brother taught me this, the fewest world words you could use, it's not working out. Thank you very much. I'm sorry. Why? It's just not working out. Because once you start explaining, becomes an argument. But this, but that, you should have told me, I could have told you this, that, or the other. Unfortunately, I sit in this position and you sit in that position. I get to fire you such as you could get to fire me. You call me up tomorrow. You don't want to come in. That's what it is. So, that's that. Now, when it comes to hiring, there's a few levels of hiring that sometimes you hire somebody like let's say the drivers in the truck. Yes, I don't want to hire people every day, but it's not the end of the world. Now, I'm busy hiring an administrator in one of my buildings, right? And it's a huge huge huge um decision and I'm actually having a problem making a decision. Why? Because this building is in a rural area and like it's not in Miami where you could just get information the community in the healthcare community. It's very small. So you could find out this is in a place where you can't find like that. So I I need to make a decision a for the employees and for the residents you have to make sure that you're doing the right thing. You can't keep enrolling administrators every 3 weeks. It doesn't work that way. So depends on the level of what you're hiring. I don't do >> I say ALF. I don't do sniff. Not because I don't want to. It just never got to me. >> So So maybe we'll do sniff. If somebody could send me sniff, but I'm in the business that loses money. ALF. [laughter] >> Alf loses money. There's no question. It's a very good word. A friend of mine told me. I'm not going to say his name. Good. He he used to run 10 sniffs in the tri-state area. So that means for >> those listening, sniffs are >> nursing homes, >> skilled nursing homes and als >> clinical >> less clinical and uh >> no skill, >> right? You don't need like heavy amount of nurses and >> so if you do nurses you there's a third party company like a home healthcare that will come in or a doctor but that does nothing to do with us. >> Has nothing to do with the ALF. >> Alves are dormitories, >> right? Yeah. >> So you sleep there, you eat by us, we wash your linen. Technically we give you medication. We don't make any money on it or anything to do with that >> like that. >> So what happens is is that well the concept of the ALF business is is that if you have a building of 24,000 square feet you could have maybe at best 24 apartment units. Okay, I'm not talking the city where you have 80 square feet. I'm talking about normal. >> If you have a 24,000 foot ALF building, you could have a 100 residents in it, >> right? >> Because they it goes by bed or by room like that. Okay. >> So um You asked me something. Oh, so this guy told me about the al business and everybody's listens that's in this business will appreciate it. So he used to run 10 sniff buildings in the tri-state and in the tri-state it's like this is where you want to be like if you could only afford it. >> And he told me the diff now he runs a bunch of alves. So he told me the difference between sniffs and halves are that in the sniff business you f you chase the dollars. In the all business you chase pennies. >> True. But it's less it's less headache, less stress. >> True. True. True. The biggest mistake people make when they come into the all business. I I people call me every single day for advice, for partnership, for this, for that. I don't try to do partnership. What I'm saying is they ask me for that and they and once a day I I hear, okay, I'm not going to lie, a few times a week I hear this from people. I work for a company that does nursing homes or have worked for a company that does nursing homes. I know the business inside out. It's too hard of a business or it's too hard to put your fingers on it to buy one. So, I want to buy an assisted living facility. And I always need to tell them what makes a nursing home a nursing home in the dollars or anything and so on is nothing to do with the olive business. It's like it's like yes it's bad and it's elderly but it has nothing to do with another. It's like totally off. So people need to know that anyway. Um so it depends what you're hiring for. >> Okay. >> But what makes an employee a good employee? >> What makes an employee a very good employee is is that you would see people that is a mukum where you can make them excited. The question is very simple. What makes you as the owner come in every day rather than shutting your company? Why do you need a headache? Why do you need the digest? Why do you need the why do you need the the everything and so on? Because you see a potential that is going to be like your ticket that's going to be your lottery. Right. >> Right. >> If you could share that lottery, that potential, that excitement with your employee and they actually start glaring up in their eyes, right? >> That's an employee. >> Motivation. >> Motivation. If the answer is that b they basically but this but that but negativity but I can't give you this but I don't want to answer the phone shabas knock yourself out >> you're not for me >> and I'm willing to pay for that handsomely >> maybe not when I hire you I can only afford $18 an hour or whatever they're paying right now or $30 an hour I'm sorry but $30 an hour but at the end of the day if we get to that number we're going to pull money together that you should be able to have that same payday I have the problem happens and your audience are going to ask is I'm talking from a level that we're talking about companies that could actually have the opportunity to get to M&A. They could become something. Sometimes you have a company that say you know they sell sandwiches and uh I'm not saying selling sandwiches is bad but I'm saying is there is no potential like that. Then there's another way how to do this. How do you do this? You say very simple say look what I want you to do is XYZ and then you say because tell him the because that's how you know what you're going to help what he's going to help you with. I don't want to be busy with XYZ. So now he knows the cause. And then you tell him every single Friday on your drive home from work, you're going to ask yourself this question. What have I done this week to alleviate my boss's or to help my boss grow? Ask yourself this question. And if the answer is nothing, then you know what you need to do next week. And if the answer is great, tap yourself in the back. Now, how do you bring that light, that motivation, that excitement into a general employee in a company where is smallalish, nobody wants needs to be or wants to be whatever. The answer is that you tell them, look, we're going to take month over month what we did in 2025. You weren't here 2025. You're only here in 2026. And we're going to say that let's say we did $25,000 in January 2025. Any penny above $25,000, you're going to get one point of that. So, if we go and we end up doing $30,000, out of that $5,000, you get 1%. >> Right? >> You know what else? >> There's motivation. And if you can't see it in his eyes, they say mesh me, not for you. >> Right? >> Now, the other thing that I love to tell people when you hire people, you can't you can't do it on every level of hiring, but especially of mid hires and especially anything above that and obviously on executive level. I always tell people when I hire them, I don't want to ever have a conversation with you about a raise ever. So, are you gonna put it? >> You're still doing it? >> Nope. >> You? >> Nope. >> Running a business for 20 years. >> I hired a guy last week >> to run my operations in Florida. >> Okay. >> If he gets to listen to it, he could comment true or false. Okay. >> Okay. >> I hired a guy last week. He gets a base salary. Decent base salary. I'm not going to deny it. He gets a decent base salary. He gets car expenses, medical, and so on. Every year, that's the agreement. We sit down and there is 50,000 and then additional 20,000 of bonuses based off accomplishment certain things. So the 50,000 are things that are required by a job to accomplish. Okay. >> Is that a bonus or a raise? >> That's a bonus >> besides for raises. >> There's no raises. I don't give raises. There is no raise. >> Just a hefty bonus. >> A hefty freaking bonus. Yes. But you can you have that for every position in in a company? >> No. >> How you going to do that for a bookkeeper? >> M sure you can have in a bookkeeper. I have a bookkeeper right now. He actually didn't want to do it that way, but I have a bookkeeper right now that we hired on the healthcare side of things. Okay. Not cheap. >> So he runs call him CFO of the company. So for a CFO maybe it's not it's not expensive, right? But basically how how you do it is very simple. You basically are supposed to give me reports of what's going on because I don't want to get involved in financial stuff at all. Right? I mean I have to deal with the banks. I have to make sure stop and the the buck stops by me. There's no question. I sign on it. But at the end of the day, if you could come back to me and say, you know what, we've implemented this. I'll give you an example. He came up, actually wasn't him, but somebody in that department came up and says, in every facility, we pay a couple hundred a month for the phone systems. So, in the office, we have this unifi system. Many people have it, maybe have it over here, the uni system where it's about $25 a month. So it's going to be done in a way where porting the phone numbers takes time and you can't leave a facility without a phone number without a fact. How are they going to get you know medicine fact whatever. So basically we're going to do in a processed way where with the facilities we have today it's going to save us about $3,500 a month >> and show me what you did. >> Right? >> It's very very very simple from mid to upper employees. You could do it every single day >> right? >> Especially in companies with sales. I had an employee in John to go. She's still in job to go. >> Okay. >> She started with me in I believe in 2006 or 2007 as a part-time employee. >> Okay. >> I didn't say 2026 this time. [laughter] And she started 2006 2007. >> 20 years. >> Huh? >> 20 years. >> 20 years. She started part-time. Devoted. Devoted. I mean, you're talking about she really made it her life. At some point when we made that whole deal, how we're going to grow, I said to her, look, I think at the time she was making 35 or $40 an hour. I don't remember, but let's say $35,000 an hour, which I think makes more sense. It says I'm never going to raise you on $35,000 an hour. It's not happening. But every month that we did more what we did more than the month before than the year before, I'm sorry, the year before. So January 2026, we did $2 million in sales. January 2025, we did 1.5 million in sales. For that $500,000, you get one point. How much is 1 point500,000? >> Should I help you? $5,000. It's a lot of money. and she ended up making 220, 240, 260, $280,000 a year. And it didn't even bother me because she became my partner, >> right? >> And I I didn't have to motivate her. I didn't have to convince her to come in on a day where it was a snow day or have her phone available on Calamoid or take her laptop home anytime ever. We never had this conversation. But when I give her that deal and she says, "But what if and what this and what that and what oh, but then but I have a Kaneka party and my kids and my anical and my and my mom and whatever." Become a register in a grocery. You make $800 and that's that. It's two different employees. What I'm going to say to you is that there is a shred in every human being that is called entrepreneur. In some people it's all of them. Wherever you touch, it's entrepreneur. And in some people, it's bigger and smaller. The person that has it very, very little. Now, if you are in a company that all you do is you do messaging and you need a guy that comes in and does the messaging for you, 7:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m., there's no if, but schmutz, whatever. You figure out raises with them every single year. Every January 1st, it goes up by $2 an hour. Don't call me, don't ask me, don't bother me. That's that. But the biggest hardship I see with with with companies that are trying to grow, the biggest distraction to the owner, and I'm going to explain to you a little bit more because it sounds like I'm saying something stupid, is giving a raise. Why? Because how many days or weeks or how many times have you heard from an employee, I left because I asked him for a raise and he kept on pushing me, pushing me, pushing me, pushing me, pushing me, pushing me. How many times did this owner not walk across your desk or wanted to face you because he was worried you're going to hunt him for another raise because you had a baby which means you interrupted the business. He couldn't communicate to you what he had to communicate to you in terms of the business because he was worried he's going to take he's going to ask you for a raise. That makes any sense to you? >> No. >> I walked into my office in John to go I had zero worry he was going to ask me for a raise. Zero. Never worried. >> Why'd you go Okay. Um, why'd you go for private equity? Because the business plateaued? >> No, business didn't plateau. So, why I went to private equity? It's a very, very good question. So, I'm going to answer you the question in two ways. The first question is is the question like this. Do I have that I did it? No. >> Okay. Would you have done it differently? >> Would I have done it knowing what I know today? Probably not. >> Which is >> which is now I'm going to answer you why I did it and you know what it is. >> Okay. which is is you come to a point where the company becomes so big and you're growing so fast that you're simply running out of money. Meaning to say is I'm going to explain to you like this. >> Millions going up. >> So let's say my profits my annual profits are $10 million and let's say I grow by $15 million. I'm negative $5 million. Let's say my profits are $10 million and I grow by $5 million, but I grow every day and I get paid from companies 30, 45, 60, 90, 120, I'm still negative in dollars. When you have four employees and you tell them, I can't pay you Friday, but I'm going to pay you Tuesday, it's okay. But if you have multiple locations in multiple states and hundreds of employees, that doesn't fly, >> right? So it becomes to a point that either you bring in >> it's also not okay if you're supposed to be pay them Friday supposed to be and you're going to pay them Tuesday even if it's just for employees. It's never okay. But what I'm saying to you is >> easier to deal with. >> It's easier to remedy. >> Right? >> This is something where you can't remedy at all. >> Which means to say is that oh, and I'm going to tell you something else. And a lot of companies say it. You could see huge humongous companies and I see them all the time as if they come to me for consulting. Whatever the case is, >> I don't do consulting for a living. So I don't want people to take that notion. Um, so I see companies that you would think that they are the biggest companies. They're rolling it in and they're living life and they are living life and they're giving a lot of saddaka and they're living the lifestyle of an entrepreneur needs to live and they should live like that. We're nonadosian. We we we are we are we are she's kids and we should live in big houses and and have your manga paw and everything like that. >> You would be surprised how much interest and money waste they spend a year to be able to keep the cookie crumbling to to keep it going. and at some point in bank fees or interest loans or highinterest loans or types of things that it just doesn't make any sense anymore, >> right? >> So then you have to bring in other money. So it's either it's Tat's money, >> right, >> which Tati didn't have. So either it's a bank this there there's a very big caveat in this. So when you have a company that shows huge growth and and we have assets in the millions. I mean you're talking trailers, trucks and toilets and all these good things and so on. But if you have, let's say, equipment financing loans, which in general, if the equipment could last 10 years, the equipment financing is 36 months only, you're you're squashing yourself like nuts, the bank looks at you as your cash flow is low. So now you're double stick. So now they don't want to loan you. So at some point, you got to do one of these big Tata moves. And that was our Tata move. We did it >> and you stepped out or that happened much later. >> No, what happened was is that I was I was CEO of the company up until then. >> How many employees >> today? No, that private equity. >> I when I left management, it was probably maybe I don't remember exact maybe 150 like that. Something like that. Yeah. >> Well, I was six employees. That's 156, >> right? >> My brother wore three hats. [laughter] >> Fair. >> Um, what would you have done differently? I probably would have invested more time in packaging the financials in a way where I could actually tell my story story in a true way that I could retain 100% of the company and go to the bank >> and bring in bank money maybe small bank money >> but enough but maybe enough bank money for small banks I meant >> do you still do you miss the daily grind of the challenges? So I'll tell you um so >> the putting out the fires. >> So we never put so one of the things we need to talk about. I know I know what Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so no I mean I loved every minute of it. The being being down on my luck being negative and I loved every process of it up until I don't want to go back to certain things but okay but the answer is like this. I loved it. I sometimes miss it but I have it now because unfortunately I got myself into a new company. So I have it and I and I have it in a way where I'm 44 today. I'm not 24 today, right? So it's just it grinds differently. You understand? But I'm still But for a year and a half when I wasn't really doing anything, I was going off my mind. Did I heard this from many successful founders who had successful exits, they had their whole identity wrapped around the business. So when they did their exit and they walked away with a lot of money, millions, they had an identity crisis. Their whole identity was that business >> they took a step back. Oh my gosh, what do I do? They sometimes they go into depression. I don't think that happened with you. You know how to make yourself busy. >> But their whole image person like everything was wrapped around that company. Now they take a step back. The company's going to continue growing. They have a lot of money in the bank. But how many times already can you go on vacation? >> So you need to understand something a little bit. First of all, when I stepped down, I was pretty young. Meaning to say, >> how long when did you step down? So, so it's three years. It's going to be three years. So, I was 41. So, it's not like I've been doing this until I'm 55, 60. Now, what do I do? I'm young. I could do like that. >> That's number one. Number two, >> how long did you wait to get back into getting busy >> a month? >> And I don't want no I don't want to say it happened by mistake. So, in initially I was still running certain aspects of the company. Okay. >> I was doing I was chief revenue officer which basically means just we're paying you not to talk but um but I was chief strategy officer. So, strategies but at some point I realized that that they have a different mahalaka strategy. So my strategies are some they did, some they didn't. And sometimes when you come with the strategy to private equity, private equity says, "Okay, so no go now go execute." Okay, I know how to execute when I'm the boss and and and it stops and starts by me. When you need to execute and you didn't have all these different approvals like just not even worth it, you know, like that. So it took me so this was this then also I'm I'm an avid traveler. So I did Yeah. So I did a I did a country a month. Every month I was in a different country. Not for the whole month. >> Yourself with family, >> sometimes family, sometimes alone, sometimes friends, whatever. >> You went to El Salvador. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. All of them. All them. Yeah. Yeah. All of them. So I did that. Um I you have to understand another thing is people know me as John to go. I've exit companies before, >> right? >> So I had companies that that I was so John to go was my biggest identity. There's no question about it. And and it was my biggest builder blah blah blah. But I've exited in the second is we have a real estate portfolio that I was involved with. So then so about a year I was just you know doing this and that. Um I did a lot of minibet talk and learning a lot which I'm telling you I should have known this when I started the company would have been different. Um so I did a lot of that but at some point I wanted to get into something else for a few reasons. A when you sell even when you sell for a lot of money you realize a lot of money is not a lot of money >> you know especially when you have a lifestyle tok me too. >> So yeah so so that so I wanted to get into something I liked real estate and I like business also. So liking real estate, liking business. The closest thing to it was something related to healthcare. >> Um you know something to that nature. So I went to so I went to one course and which was the small alpha model like 10 beds whatever which wasn't for me. And then I went to an administration course in Florida to become an administrator. I never became administrator but just wanted to know the laws. >> And um I only started buying in the beginning of 25. Yeah. But we we run a whole bunch of communities now. So, so we did that. It's just But but if you're asking me if I knew what I'm biting myself into, no, it's tough business. >> You know what? I think as as we get towards the end of of this amazing episode, um I have a very interesting question for you. If you needed to start again from scratch, what's a business you would want to get into? >> So, for me, that doesn't mean for everyone. Very good question. And there's two ways how to ask the question. And I think because I want to answer properly. So some people asked this question just the way exactly the way you answer answer asked it. And somebody would say what would you recommend me to start? I can't answer that. I could answer what I would do. >> I would probably do Porter John's again >> and for two reasons. I know >> I can't now I can't I have a non-compete but at one point I can't I can >> when >> three years four years whatever I know in the next we have another exit. >> Oh >> it's private equity. We have a few exits. >> That's right. >> So we got to wait. Um it depends. Maybe at the second exit I'll be involved in the third exit. I I don't know what's the what's going to still we're still not there. But but at the end of the day, >> as a matter of fact, I I actually pitched my partners that I want to open up a brand new portable toilet company unrelated to anyone. >> Why would that be different >> in a different area, not not competing with ourselves? So, let's say you open up in Arizona or in Texas or someplace where we're not and uh let's do the hustle again, you know, like that. Um I I didn't end up doing it because for private equity you have to understand something. Somebody once told me I have a good friend Yosi Oriker. He lives next to me. He's from the food business. He's a Saudi helps people all the time. >> Cookies. >> His grandfather was cookies. Yeah. Okay. >> Um so >> who's running it now? >> Nah. So Yashi's father ha has multiple companies. They had they used to have mishpa that they sold. They have David's cookies. They have >> I was in Israel for a month in the summer. I was working in an office building and I saw down the hall David's Cookies on one of the offices. >> David's Cookies. Yeah. So, he's that and they have Norman's the the the yogurts. Yeah. Great company. Good people. Very good people. So, he told me once that he was involved in a food business that was bought by a big private equity. Um I think it was one of um what's the name of this president was going to be president and he lives in Massachusetts. He's a Republican. Mi Romney Mitt Romney owns a private equity company. He was the owner of that company. cuz he worked for them and the first time they came in for the meeting after the sale after the you know the the merger they came in they came in and one of the big machines the manufacturing machines broke down on the floor and they were flipping out like what's the private equity going to say it's not working it's not production every >> so he um so basically they came in and they didn't even bother so he learned private equity doesn't have conversations of now they have conversations where and how can we be in 24 months from now >> right >> like that So opening up another company together with them, but just having a unidentified other company wouldn't work because at the end of the day, I still got to bring home Panosa, >> right? >> They don't care about Panosa today. They care about what we could exit, which is the proper way to do it if you're comfortable enough, right? You know, like that. It wasn't for me again. But if I need to start today and and I can, I would probably do portable toilets again and or a service-based business that's scalable. That's scalable meaning to say is if my service is that I build sickest you can't scale that >> right you need people and people and people and people >> you need people people and it's also only once once a year right but if or aim I would I'm not saying a is a bad business for me it was wouldn't be a good business um >> you're like >> cleaning hoods in kitchen >> what about fencing you're on the same site >> so we do fencing we do fencing we do fencing um we didn't do it when I was running the company they added it on because for me we were growing so fast and >> I see that as a as a like a recruiter offering resume writing services very >> it is it is it is it is so so now we know you do writing services guys if you need to know >> I see it as a as an easy >> black recruiting and writing >> so so no so the answer is so we do that rolloffs garbage rolloffs that's us like that over here I'm I'm I'm I'm not putting a big doggish on it because I I I don't like to compete with my hammer friends like there's no point again business is ruthless we got to we got to do says, "You know how many people I've helped open other recruiting agencies? People called me, they want to get into recruiting. They maybe want to come work for me." >> I tell him, "I I'd rather help help you open your own business." >> Right. No, it's a very very >> never It's never affected my bank. >> It's very And it's right and it's right and it's right. But at the end of the day, there's a very fine line. Recruiting is a little bit different. It's more of a gig type of a thing. No, it's a business. But but but it's a very fine line between >> giving it away and helping somebody else. >> Good point. >> You understand? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> There was once a guy here locally. I don't what he does also some service based business and so on and somebody else opened up competition whatever the case is and then afterwards somebody opened competition in in my arena which again you're not compet you're not competing with me because the yisha market is not my market. Yeah. And in yeshiva square they were saying that I said that this guy does this I'm going to do that which never happened. So this guy that was in the other business that he had a competition called me up and he said my son came back from yeshiva and he said that you're going to do this don't do that the development. I said you're 100% right and I did not say that and I couldn't care less about a little cockroach that wants to do his thing means nothing to me like that but when you're saying to me that you had a competition and it wasn't working and so on. I said I think you're a little bit stupid because there's a fine line about giving it away and like and so on. He called me up 3 months later. Almost crying is saying is you are so right. You don't have to hand it over. >> Right. >> There's a fine line of helping and handing it over. >> Right. >> What's yours is yours. It's okay. >> Right. Exactly. >> What a great conversation. Thank you. >> If you're watching, I hope you subscribe on YouTube. Till next time. I really enjoyed this episode. I hope so did. I'll see you next time. It's >> a chef. Thank you.