Building a Startup Nearly Broke Me | What It Takes to Leave a Secure Career

Should we get started? Yi, ready to roll? Everything's live. Welcome back to another episode of the What It Takes Podcast. Today we have Heshi Goldstein, uh, one of the founders of Friday. So, if you don't know Friday, you're probably living in a cave, but Friday is a payroll company for small business to keep it simple. >> Kind of >> kind of. So, that means your branding is kind of okay. Uh-huh. >> Um, you were seven years at Finger Check helping thousands of business owners navigate payroll chaos, compliance, and all the headaches that nobody wants to deal with. But instead of staying comfortable, he took the leap, teamed up with Pinis, Schwarz, Schiff, and Martin Schwarz, and built a payroll tech company from scratch designed for small business owners who just want payroll to be simple, fast, and human. We're going to be talking today about his entire entrepreneurial journey, why he walked away from a secure paycheck, how do you find your co-founders, the unfiltered reality of building a tech company, the challenges of being a boss, and what do you think's that makes a truly great employee? If you ever dreamed about starting something on your own, or you're curious what really happens behind the scenes of a startup, you better listen up. What's up? >> Great intro. Thank you so much, Lily. It's my pleasure to be here. >> It's Chad GPT with instructions. It's not just boom. It's it's it was still great. >> What What are your thoughts on AI? >> I think AI is I heard someone say this. I don't remember who. Um AI is going to make the human currency go up. Meaning what makes you you, what makes you unique, what makes you is going to go up because everything else is just going to be able to do >> more competitive like the currency go up as in more competitive. >> No, meaning the person that could express themselves fully in business either in personal brand in business or in personal relationships his currency that is going to be very valuable. For example, look look at the movie industry, right? Movie industry, it's very hard to find a good movie today versus 10 or 20 years ago. The main reason is because the companies that were driven by profits started going the predictable route. Anybody can make can follow the same story line and make a movie, >> right? >> And it will bring in money. But what makes a killer movie is when someone takes a risk. >> True. and they try to bring a story to the screen for something that really expresses something that wasn't hasn't been expressed before and then that thing blows up. Um, I think with AI, anybody can open a podcast and everybody can say something, but are you saying what everybody else is saying or are you saying what you really think? >> Right? >> And I think that will and if you are able to tone in more into yourself and express that, you'll be able to cash out in the age of AI because now AI becomes a tool, not a resource. And it's usually quite predictable in my line of work. Looking at rums, I can usually differentiate an AI resume versus a non AI resume. Um, but talking about being your authentic self and making that human capital or the value go up, a few people that did that became really wellknown and successful. Think of like Charlie Kirk. >> He had his values and he never veered off to anything different. He believed what he believed and that's what he shared with the world. >> Um, so I think it's very very true. I like that. >> How do you know? >> It's a great assistant though. >> Of course, it does a lot of great things for you, but there still has to be the you factor. >> Meaning, if you're going to use a AI bot, give me content ideas and start shooting it. And you're just following the script, >> maybe you're going to get Yeah. No, but if you are like, "No, I want to talk about this and this is my opinion on this topic." And then you give it to AI, help me hook it, give me a hook, give me an intro, give me an outro, and then you play with it like, "This doesn't resonate with me. This does resonate. What took once two weeks could take you an hour, a half hour. Yeah. In that way. Yeah. But in that, in other words, it will help you elevate yourself, express yourself in a way where um it makes it easier and for you to express yourself and it makes it also faster. Like for example, I'm now going all in on content, right? Mhm. >> It would have taken me either a couple thousand dollars back in the day to hire someone a social media company and think of ideas how I'm going to do it. With AI and the right tools, you take out a phone, you start talking for two hours. You drop it into AI and you tell AI, give me what do you think the best >> clip is. >> Clips is give me 10 ideas. He gives you the ideas and then you play with it. You like it, you don't like it, but it's still you. You were talking, not AI was talking. So you can use AI as a tool but AI is not the answer to all. It's my opinion. >> Very true. Very true. Um so you started as a W2. No >> started as a W2. Great story actually. I went I got hired by my old boss to do software development. >> When where when was that? >> Finger check. >> You started off at Finger Check doing what? >> I started off there was a company called Finger Tech, >> right? which was um a time clock company. We were importing time clocks from Malaysia. They had their own software and they were selling it on Amazon. Was that your first role? >> That was my first job. >> My first job was doing retail actually. I worked in a store for two and a for two years, one and a half years. We were selling mops and toilet accessories and vanities, hardware, >> decor. >> It was all home decor. >> I hated it. >> Okay. I didn't look at it as a job. I got hired by a friend. Um just was like I have this store and I need someone to be there. I was my wife was still making money. >> For those listening and don't know what China is. >> Yeah. >> The first year you get married. >> Yeah. So it's like it was a part-time job. I was from 11 or from 11 till 5 11 to 6 or 12 to 6. I don't remember. >> I was basically sitting there and came in like four or five customers a day and I just had to help them show them what they want to buy. four or five customers. That sounds pretty quiet. >> It was a very quiet store. >> Would go out of my mind. >> I did go out of my mind. Um I ended up leaving that company. Um >> two years later, >> the main reason why I left was I had no reason to leave. I was making $600 700 a week going back 15 16 years ago. Uh was was okay income. I had my freedom. Um I was not motivated. I had no vision. So my mother is someone that's a small business owner. She has a store bar code arcade >> code. Okay. Arcade 13th Avenue. >> On 13th Avenue. Yeah. So she's been in business >> years. >> For years. And she's always push pushed her kids to go for education which was not very accepted back in the day coming from Williamsburg. Right. >> I have a sister that's a speech therapist. I have a brother that's a speech therapist. She sent uh two of my brothers went to college to become software developers. one of them is now CTO on a big company. So she was pushing me and as a I went to school for IT. I went to school for programming but I was never really I always like technology. I love technology but I never had the ADHD in me or never was very very good at um >> sitting and coding >> sitting and coding. I was able to get the basics. I know what an if statement means or a variable is what a loop is and what a database is and all of that but I was never able to mish create yesesh. Um I had a brother that pushed me very strongly to he said he so interesting story my brother was in was in school for programming going back 25 years ago. Back then there wasn't like um schools that teach you in two months programming. He went to college. He got a degree and he was freshly married and he needed a job. And he found someone that was an Israeli guy that he was a salesman. He used to work for a company that sold um software for um OBGYNS. >> Okay. >> And he needed a programmer to do that to join the company. >> Like a billing software >> scheduling. No, it's the the developing the software that runs the the sonograms like it's >> yeah complicated software. He worked for a company was a successful salesman. he want to open his own company, but he had no clue about development. And my brother's wife had a baby and he needed to make pronuna. So he's like, I'm in college. I want to become a program. Let me see what's out there. And somebody recommended him to that guy. And that guy interviewed him. And my brother didn't know crap. And he's like, "How much do you want to make?" And my brother said, "$600 for me." He said, "Deal." And my brother told me the story. He went in. 30 grand a year, give or take. 28. >> Yeah. Yeah. He was a beginner >> and um >> writing software. Yeah. So he was taking over code from someone that has been dealing with him. My brother's an amateur, never wrote a real life code. >> Okay. >> Ever. >> And he sat down and for weeks he he tried calling the old programmer and this guy was like, "Figure it out. You're on your own." >> Right. And he's just he's very smart obviously and he's slowly but surely he started reading started testing started deleting started writing and before you know it after a couple weeks couple months he's the they started selling the product and things picked up and then they recently sold a couple years ago for I think 20 $30 million. >> Did he get a piece? >> Uh no. He's a very W2 type. I had this conversation with him a lot. But >> the point is he was pushing me constantly. Go for it. You'll learn. Yeah. >> Go for development. >> Go for devel. How do you think I learned? I sat down and I just tried then break and failed. >> But he can probably learn how to like you. Does he have ADHD? >> I don't think so. >> Okay. So, >> I don't like to use ADHD as a as a as >> I think it's a superpower, honestly. >> I don't know what it is, but uh it to me I tell you what it is. It's for me it's out of control. It's you want to take control of your life. You don't want to do what somebody else tells you to do or something that you don't find interesting. So you constantly trying to figure out a way. For example, even me now here, >> I'm it's uncomfortable for me to sit here and being grilled >> and being asked questions. I've never been in a fun time. >> We're having I'm having a fun time. But the reality is there are part there are parts of me that just want to >> do something else now. So what do I do? Take water. You move the chair. You play with your fingers, right? >> And uh >> Yeah. See, maybe we should get fidget spinners for the for the future guests that have ADHD. No, >> but uh anyway, so he was pushing me very very strongly. So I got this interview by Finger. He was looking for So he was looking for someone to do customer service, but also someone that can help him build out his new program called Finger Check. Finger Check didn't exist then, but he was working behind the scenes >> which was what a better software >> than Time like >> Yeah. So his original the the time clock that sold was Windowsbased time and back in the day I don't know if you remember we used to have programs on computers. You double clicked something and it opened up the program. So he wanted to create a more powerful more better and advanced program. It's going to be web based cloud-based that back then that was the thing. Everything's going on the cloud. It's funny to think back right now everything's on the cloud. Um in any case so I went out for an interview. I told him I went to school for programming. I don't know much, but I'm willing to learn. >> He He sent me a message. You're not getting the job. >> It's not for you. >> I was actually I'm looking for someone with more experience. I was sitting next to my brother then in the car. My brother said, "Tell him to try you for 3 months. No minimum wage. Tell him to try you and after three months, if he doesn't like you, he can send you away." And that's what I did. I remember sitting in the car like, "I just got rejected. What do you mean?" Right? But I did it. I remember when it was I was diving shakers 10:00 he called me up and he's like you got the job. I what change? He says listen you showed an attitude. You're willing to work hard. You're willing to try. I think I'm going to take that risk on you. And that's what I did. So I got hired and I started working there. And guess what? I sucked. >> What was the role? >> So I started customer service. I need to help customers troubleshoot tech tech support. Troubleshoot issues with the program with the clock. It was >> finger tech software. >> Finger tech software. So they had two customer service reps. I will be the third first learn the product >> and the hardware came from Malaysia. >> Yes. >> Cool. >> Um and that's what I did. Um I sucked which means is >> But did you enjoy it? >> I was so I remember thinking a couple things. So first of all it was a very busy office. like it stimulating. >> It's a bootstrap company. There was no >> that bootstrap meaning you hire the people when you mummish have the extra money which means you're already drowning. So the boss was literally picking up phone calls and doing customer service calls the whole day >> and then he had to train me which there was no time no space. was doing growth >> sales >> so there was a sales >> there was a sales team >> u that was doing growth but there was bootstrapped and bootstrapped >> what were they doing in revenue figure tech >> um I don't know if I can share that >> no like was it a small business to five or five to 10 10 >> it was a small small company >> how many employees >> uh we had like uh two customer support one sales rep it was me and the CEO >> small very very small we worked out of office smaller than strong. >> Wow. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> We were really we were building and grinding building a company from the ground up. It was a real real grind. Looking back, it was the best experience I could have had. It's like it was a blessing. >> But back then it was very hard. I was coming in, nobody was talking to me. Nobody was training me and I just it's my first real job in an office coming in my vital telescope, my flip phone. First thing my boss looked at me, it's like you you got to tighten up. I started tightening up. But I was sitting there listening into calls trying to help customers and I just wasn't getting it. I was not understanding how things work, how to fix things. And I remember thinking then, listen, there's some things that are out of my control, there's some things that are in my control. The things that are out of my control is how fast I understand and how good I I can be. Things are in my control is showing up on time, putting in the effort. No matter what, I was there in the office every day. 8:45. It was a 9 to6 job. 8:45 I was there every day and by the way that held that went on for years probably >> until you left >> not till I left I would say by the time I left we had 50 employees and I was director of client services was completely >> different situation and also came mostly on time but if I had an appointment for example I remember having my brother-in-law got married and I finished the wedding at 4:00 a.m. 8:45 I was in the office and I worked the full day. No excuses. That was my mentality. >> Weddings that end at 4:00 a.m. is a different a different conversation for a different time. >> It's also 10 years ago weddings end at >> even today at two. Like people have a job like be a little considerate >> to be honest. I don't know if it ended at 4:00. It might have ended at 2, but I went to sleep at 4:00 till they get home till you put the kids. >> It's a lot. And then you're driving home and you're so tired. I I had a friend who usually these weddings would take long and end 2 3 4:00 in the morning. He ended it at 11:00. >> I love that >> the meal bench mitans then dancing. >> Listen, I always say I don't know always say when I start marrying off there's going to be so I don't know I can't do whatever I want but if that's the excuse but it would be up to me. I would start it early. Small int. I just had my brother-in-law get married. Second marriage. >> Okay. >> And I was like, I think second marriage weddings are much more fun than first marriage. >> How? >> First of all, it's more intimate. >> Okay. It's smaller crowd. >> Smaller crowd. It's more intimate. So only people that want to be there be there are there. If somebody does want, he he can get excuses. Second marriage. I don't have to come. Ends up being a very >> How many people showed up? >> I would say maybe 150 people. 100. I don't know. I don't know. >> People as in both sides like men and women. Right. The men was probably 100 people, I would say. That's very cozy. Very cozy. It was a beautiful wedding. Had good music. Leaper was rocking the house and we all enjoyed ourselves. And And when you're close to the wedding, it's not like second cousin. >> What time do you go to bed? >> I don't know. I don't remember. >> But you had a good time. >> Had a had a blast. Like I don't I don't see the whole first you come the pictures from 2 p.m. And there's this whole mat. And I don't know. I personally would love to make small cozy weddings. >> I think it's more intimate, but there's a kala the teenagers, they want to have a million friends and want the whole class, the whole grade to come. So, >> it's probably it's probably not realistic. >> Parents want cozy in the actual >> So, yeah, you have to. >> Anyways, so going back to >> where were we? >> Going back to my job. >> Yeah. >> So, I wasn't getting it. So, I was focusing on those things. I remember also thinking and this is something I still use till today. I remember thinking, remember your humble beginnings. Remember how it feels to start a new job, not knowing, not getting the support, feeling all lost, being afraid that at any minute you can you can lose everything, you can get kicked out. Remember the feeling. How long did it take for you to start picking stuff up? So, this is what happened after 3 months. Um my boss went on vacation and my boss told me that afterwards that on that vacation he discussed with that he's coming back he's firing her she it's not going anywhere >> right >> what ended up happening because the reason why I didn't pick it up I was simply afraid I had my boss sitting right next to me like this >> and then I had my manager sitting right next to me so so I I was afraid to make a mistake I was afraid to try the second he went on vacation and the manager didn't here some month. I was able to mess up. I started messing up. I started taking calls. I started doing and slowly but surely I started getting things. He came back from vacation. The vacation took was 4 days from Wednesday to Monday. He came back ready to fire me. He saw a different person and from there >> I soon became a manager and I just started paying Cub level two support. I started I didn't end up I didn't end up doing the software development part because I was helping him in product design and testing. I did a little bit developing. I I I was writing all the reports but I was more um in the front front lines and and helping the customer. Yeah. Customer facing. >> It was an amazing turnaround. And uh yeah, so fast forward I I worked there for nine years. So two years was just finger techch and then 2013 is when finger check was launched. >> Did they close down finger techch? >> I don't know. I think it still exists. I still I think >> but finger check gets the time clocks from where? >> So I think finger techch sells to finger check >> to finger check. Yeah. Finger techch still has a separate software a separate company. I believe >> finger check is a full-on payroll company. >> Yes. At this point it's a fullon human doing human capital management. >> And what was your career path from when you started doing level one entry-le tech support to when you left? What was it? >> So it started like level one tech support, then I became level two tech support and then I became the manager of customer service. I started having two or three people working under me. >> Were was it your responsibility to hire them or someone else hired them? You just needed to make sure the job got done. >> Once I became manager became my responsibility to hire them. >> Okay. >> Yes. And I I I had a very good boss that let me mess up. I I was able to make a lot of mistakes. How long did it take for you to get promoted to manager? >> Uh, I would say maybe two years. >> That skill of being responsible to hire people as a manager. That's true managerial skills. Um, it turned out I'm a natural at it. I'm a natural at people. It's my strength. >> People enjoy working for you. >> People enjoy working me and I understand what people want and I'm good at communicating with them. And >> you'd probably be a very good therapist. I probably would. I actually am. I'm not a therapist, but I I help. >> A manager becomes one of sorts. >> First of all, yes, that's basically your number one job. Um, but I at this point I do a a little bit business coaching. I do business coaching on the side. Um, also an interesting story when I started Friday was really really tight to money. We were hustling. We were grinding back in the day. >> Great example of tight on money. Tight of money means that >> I know what it means. >> Electricity being threatened to cut off. House being threatened to go on foreclosure. Having like really really tight credit cards all maxed out. >> Sheesh. >> Um not knowing what how you going to buy your next grocery order. >> Wow. >> Um tuition going after >> What about your partners? >> So everybody had their >> own struggles >> own struggles in different ways. Some some people had a wife's working. My wife had a business that she make 250k and she closed it down. >> When when you started >> well basically that same time >> you should have waited till you start >> closed it down. That's a separate story. >> Um and rightfully so it ended up being great a good thing. >> Um so I was tight of money and back in the day we didn't have sales people. So it was me my two cuckoo founders. She went down to the show. We hustled we hustled the show. We spoke to people. We were out there. And after the show, I get a call from someone, someone that knows me that I met in the show, and he's like, "You guys' energy are electric. I I I was by your booth and you changed my whole way perspective." So, first of all, the way I go to shows, and this could be good for your listeners as well. Um, when you go to show, everybody comes with the same purpose. Everybody wants to sell. Everybody wants to sell. So, the worst thing you can do is sell. What you have to present yourself as a consumer. You meet someone, say, "Hey, what's your name?" To the crowds. Hi, my name is Harishi. What do you do? I do recruiting. So, what are you trying to accomplish in by the show? Trying to see if I can find Sure. So, who's your typical customer? Oh, I'm a small business. I'm not. I am. You have a conversation. You basically let him empty his and then you stay quiet. Usually what happens? So, what do you do? >> That's your window because right now he's not on the fence. You're not trying to sell him anything. >> And I was giving this piece of advice to that person in the show. Just a random guy. >> Who taught you this piece of advice? I told you I'm good with people. It's the truth is today with content you hear so many you consume so much you don't know >> who told you what powerful >> sometimes you consume um content from somewhere else and you think it's your own idea. I don't know but intuitively I learned and I was giving this piece of advice that guy was having a new business and he felt a little bit insecure like you know it's a new business you're not yet one with your business that's confidence >> the confidence and he wasn't sure he has a good product and I was asking him what's going on he was telling me so I was telling him this what you do go out there just talk it's a numbers game talk to many people and just listen and then if they ask you you go you you start selling yourself >> only if they ask big thing for people listening. Don't start rambling if no one asked. >> Correct. Anyways, he called me up the next day. He wants me to be my business coach charge. Now, normally I would say I'm not a business coach. I'm a business owner. I have my own thing. But I was so desperate for money and I gave him my price. >> Can you share? >> Uh, sure. I I told him I'll charge you 250,000 uh session. I wasn't focused on the hour. And still to this day, he called me last week uh a win that he had. He's not my client anymore, right? >> But he we're still in touch and he constantly tells me how much I helped him, which introduced me because what happened was is I had my first session. >> Yeah. >> I finished a switch went off in my brain and I was like, "Wow, I'm really good at this." Not only am I good at this, this is actually the number one key to my all successes. and finger check how I grew in Friday working with partners or with investors like there's a lot of dynamic a lot of moving pieces this is something that I'm good at listening to a person understanding what's really bothering him and solving that problem and essentially I'm a CEO but I'm really what I am as a coach he started referring me other customers and people started hearing right now this is actually part of my day people call me what do you think of this what do you think of that question part of your consult ing correct quick questions. I don't charge. I love helping a a person comes with a problem and I'm able to see it from the outside and give him a perspective and then it clicks and it lands. There's nothing better than it's like ah >> it's the best feeling. It gives me energy to go respond to my email or the issue like it's it's highest and plus >> when you want to help a business owner when when he needs to goofund me when when this or you want to help him giving advice giving something from you is also a form of it's actually sometimes even more >> because you're you're actually you're teaching him how to fish you're not just giving him a fish you know so that's something I do and that's something I learned in my old job there was a lot of different dynamics things that um we had to get along. But o overall it was a great great education. Now going back to your question, why did I leave? It's funny. I was a W2 pro. I was on the fan of being a W2 employee all your life. >> What were you making when you left? >> Uh 250 with bonuses. >> 250 included bonuses or did not >> including bonuses. >> After nine years. >> After 9 and a half years. The formula I usually use, you probably know this better than me, >> but when someone asks me what what should I earn blah blah blah how much should I expect? I want to ask for a raise or first job, you start at about $50,000 a year. 50 maybe 60 and every year you go up about five or 10,000 a five or 10% if you're staying in the company. If you leave, figure 10 to 15% bump. What are your thoughts? Since you're this is your business, you could probably run a report and see the average raise. I don't know. Um I never looked at those numbers. It never interest me. The way I see I look at raises is how much value you providing. >> If I spend on you if I spend on you $100,000 a year, you need to be able to provide me >> at least 10 times that. >> 10 that's what I try to do. Not to >> I don't know what the standards is. I'm telling you the way the way I look at it. >> But how do you >> three to four? >> How do you figure that for a bookkeeper who's not bringing in revenue? How do you figure that out for a customer service person? They're not tied to bottom line growth. >> Everything is tied to bottom line growth. >> A soft developer, how you >> removed maybe it's three steps removed, but it's tied >> a salesperson. >> Very simple. A customer service rep has a value. How much would my how much would I pay to make sure my the customers there how much customers can he help? How much are those customers paying me? >> Gotcha. >> Everything everything is tied to to value and that's where it boils down. And It could be 10x is an exaggeration, right? Uh it might not be 10x but the point is there's amount this amount of I'm spending 100 how much you want. So think about you make any real estate investment, right? You're spending you want ROI. It's the same >> concept. Then there's other factors and there's that and then there's the factors how much peace of mind is he giving you because peace of mind that has a completely different value for Elon Musk peace of mind is a completely different thing than my peace of mind right >> because what how do you value yourself how do you look at yourself how so that's also a factor so [snorts] if you want to get a raise think about money first like what value you provide and then think about you know what let's say you're a frontliner customer service which I cost. So maybe technically in the beginning I shouldn't have only made60 $70,000 but what I was doing I was freeing up all the time for my boss because before I was um before I took over he was doing everything I was doing and all of a sudden now he can develop his new product now he can put in time software developer my old boss was a software developer and he was able to build I think he recently sold $100 million empire so that's worth >> finger check sold >> finger check sold I think for over 100 million I don't know exact number. >> Oh, wa. >> Yeah. >> Juicy number. >> Yes. >> It's crazy. >> It's beautiful. And I I >> Who bought it? >> A hedge fun. >> Some some uh Yeah, some capital company. >> And they're going to I guess bring it to all their other clients. >> I don't know. I don't know exactly uh how what their plan is, but yeah, they want to grow it. They want to grow it probably to be a billion dollar company. >> Wow. What's your old boss gonna do? Sit on KLO? Is he working on his next startup? I don't know what he's going to do, but I can tell you this much. Um, there's always something to do if you there's always somewhere you can make an impact depending where you are in life. Now, I don't know what what what's his journey, but money in my opinion is not for happiness or to accomplish something. It's for greater experiences, greater expression, and it's for growth. It's like you want to be the person that could hold 100 million back again. Like you want to be able to be that person, be humble enough to hold that and not to overtake you. At the same time, you also want to be courageous enough to use it in the right places. And then it's also for experiences. There's certain experiences and you you can't have when you're not making a certain amount of money. with that there's there's a cap like say once you make I don't know what the number let's say >> 50 million 100 million how far can you go with your experiences >> meaning there's only the the the world experiences is limit it's limited it's not limitless it's like the world has a square footage it's like there's only so many things you can do >> after you have your own ship >> crash jet >> yeah so that >> and your chef So it's a little maybe the first couple of million it expands and you experience it >> but growth and impact is where it's at because you're in every person's has infinite amount of impact and power that he has within himself and that's limitless. The reason I was asking is because um there's a media company called Morning Brew and one of the founders is Alex Lieberman. He's pretty active content creator on LinkedIn. >> Okay. And he wrote that after Morning Brew sold 40 million or seven, I don't even remember a decent number. He had an identity crisis because his whole identity was Morning Brew. Now he sold it. He's not involved anymore. He walked away with a nice check, but it took a very very long time for him to get back into entrepreneur mode, start creating things, create a new business, figure out a pro a solution to a problem. But till then he struggle like oh wow okay I sold but now what sitting at cluting >> right so I asked myself this question actually last week I was I take walks now I take I stopped smoking for sure this year >> why >> the real reason >> my wife and kids were up my my kids were like >> driving me crazy >> avoiding me like I just swallow them cigarettes and I couldn't blame them and I was like so what what the hell am I doing so >> it's still hard to no not smoke. >> I read the book, the Alan Carr book. >> I've heard about it >> and um essentially he teaches you how to there's a lot of components to it. One of components is that you're not really enjoying a cigarette which is kind of brainwashing and there's some truth to it like the whole thing that you take in a cigarette is you are have a perceived um imagination of pleasure meaning when everybody has the story of the first cigarette like I was a teenager meaning you felt insecure you felt like things are changing things are happening and you wanted to take control of the situation what did you do took a couple bucks back then it was $5 you went to buy a pack of cigarettes and now now you control or you wanted to fit in. So what you're going is for that control. You're going to take control of your life. It's it's not actual pleasure. So once you feel that take that away, now it's a fight of control. Who's in control? So he says you can't win this fight by being a stronger fighter by saying no, I'm in control because it's going to come out somewhere else. It's it's going to express itself somewhere else. rather rewire your brain. Instead of saying instead of your brain saying I want a cigarette, I want a cigarette. You when when that feeling or that thought comes up, you rewire it. Hey, I'm a free man. I don't need a cigarette. I'm a free man. And it actually works. It worked for me. >> Um there's still new situation that can come up where I can feel I need a cigarette and I just have to think those positive thoughts and usually goes away. >> That's very nice. I like that. >> I smoked for 20 years, >> maybe longer. I don't know. I started when I was 14, 15. >> Wow. >> 36. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. 20 22 years. >> Wild. >> Uh, more. Yeah. 22 years. Sorry. >> Anyways, the point is and uh I stopped smoking so I started taking long walks. I really enjoy my walks. It's the best thing I come out. I finish my walks and I have a open mind. And >> how long do you walk for? >> Usually an hour. >> Quiet streets or busy streets? >> There's a trail next to my house and >> morning and afternoon when do you walk? So in the beginning I used to started doing the lunch time but I I >> you went home or you work from home. >> So my office and I don't work from home but it's all in one area. It's like 3 minutes with the car. I live in New City. It's a beautiful place by the way guys. Stay in my new city is where it's at. >> Is where it's at. >> Now we is where it's at. Okay. Anyway, so you you start walking. >> I start walking and I was asking myself this question. So I have this thing. I'm building Friday. the goal from Friday is to build a multi-billion dollar company. I'm like, what the hell? Why? Why do you need that? You know, so it's a long answer. I ended up writing uh like a 13 anime moments, my own an like belief system. What what are my belief system that drives me to do that? Uh I can show it to you later. It's not it's not completed. I feel like there's still missing components, but basically in short, you don't choose what you want. You don't get to choose what you truly want. It chooses you. Hashem puts in your desire in you. And if you want it, that means that he wants you to pursue it. And that journey pursu and that journey that you're going on to pursue this is something that you have to go on and learn and grow and change and evolve and be or you can use language in the or whatever that is >> right >> and that's all that's all that there is. It's not like when you reach it you will be more happier. It's just opposite the place that you feel you want it and just going after it you already already makes you happier. sitting here with you and talking about it. I'm I'm feeling it right now. >> Give me one of them. >> So, the first one is obviously I believe there's a God. I believe Hashem made this world to give us all the good that we desire and way more. I believe that Hashem placed my desires inside of me so I know what he wants me to go after. And that pursuit is good for me. I believe I make a difference to him, to my wife, to my kids, family, friends, partners, employees, clients, and community. Um, there's a couple more. I believe there are infinite ways to build wealth. You know what? I'll read you all of them. >> Let me see. Oh, this is a long list. >> It's 13. >> Oh, it's >> I started writing down a few. Then I was like I was like, let me match it to the Rams mountains. Let me try to find 13. And then >> I have a the mill not the million-dollar question, but the 250 plus bonus question. Why in the world would you give up such a cushy job to >> to put yourself in a position where oh, how am I going to pay my bills? Now I need to cover payroll for my employees. Why in the world would you do that? >> I don't know. >> What happened? What were the triggers? >> There was a couple triggers. First of all, um I I'm a builder by nature. I like to build. >> I like to create. I like the scale. Not only 0ero to one, even 1 to 10. I like when there's something to look forward to, when there's when there's a challenge. Yeah, that's what I do. >> And finger check, at least when I was there at at that point, the company was doing great. It was growing. It was plateauing. Everything I didn't I came into the office. >> No more challenges. >> I didn't know what to do. I literally [sighs] I didn't have much to do. I was the there was the CEO and then there was me. I was the number two guy to the CEO at least in operations. There was also sales, there was development and I reported to the CEO. I was running a company 50 employees. I didn't find it challenging anymore and I was miserable. >> For how long? >> I would say that was for two years. >> Whoa. >> There was ups and downs. I couldn't walk away. What am I doing? Where am I going? >> Right. Well, to a competitor. >> I wasn't. >> That's why you're making money. >> I was making okay money. I was comfortable at my job. I had a good relationship with my boss and my my co-workers. I was in control, >> right? >> There was no reason for me to leave, but I was miserable. Um, >> so what'd you do? >> What ended up happening, Hashem put in this in my boss and he told me right away it was where my wife wanted to make me a surprise. She wanted to take me on vacation from Wednesday till Monday was my anniversary or my birthday. I was born on Christmas. So was was my birthday and um so she asked him and he said no. He he still doesn't know why he said no. It was a mistake. He made a mistake. >> That was a mistake. That was the >> that was and I heard about that and I was like what? I'm going to be work I working for 10 years. How am I how am I going to look when I'm going to be 40? I'm going to be marrying off my kids and I'm going I'm not a slave. Two days later, I gave notice. Walked away. No plan. >> No, but this didn't happen over two. This is two years of >> true >> being bored. >> Yeah. >> That was the final straw. >> Okay. You quit. Do you have any idea what you're going to do? >> I didn't have ideas. No. I had My father-in-law had a such a good story. >> My father-in-law had a business. First of all, my wife worked. So my wife had a business that was income. >> Um my father-in-law has a >> But then you went on the vacation. >> Then I went on the vacation. I went to Amsterdam. It was traumatic vacation. >> I had CO on the education and my wife had an emergency surgery in the education. >> What in the world? Over four days. >> Over four days. >> Maybe it's a there's a reason why you both said no. I don't know. >> So there's a reason for everything. Question only is how it's going to come out. How it's going to express itself. Um, >> so what happened? You quit. You go home. You're relaxed. You're enjoying your >> Kaneka. I remember it was Kaneka. It's the last day from Kaneka. I still have the test. You don't understand. I was me and the company. We were one. I There was no life me outside the company. I worked there for 10 years. This was my shuma. I was gent everything. I built myself up. I learned so much. I made relationships. It was everything. I couldn't see myself walking away. But it had to come from such a place where I had to go away. Um and I gave notice. I I remember shivering like this. It's like I couldn't believe >> in person or an email >> in person. I went told him I want to talk to you. He was also shocked. We were both we were both shocked at the same time. like it ended up being a great thing for him because he ended up hiring a whole professional team right after I left and they started and got as as they were getting ready to sell his company and if I would have been there it would have probably been hard because at the same time I don't have the skills that right >> uh you know and and they need to figure out so now it was was great um but uh yeah it was ended up I told him I'm here for you whatever you need tell me how much notice you didn't have any plans anyway so tell me how much notice you want says uh if you can give me 3 months I said no problem you got it I'll stay there for 3 months >> notice >> stay there for 3 months he hired someone else and I was I helped train in >> and then I walked away then co hit which was a blessing >> whoa that's a long time ago >> that's a long co hit which was great because nobody worked nobody had money and I was just one of them so there was unemployment checks there was all the different type BPPS and everything else. >> And >> how did you what did you do to not be get become bored? >> I was quite depressed >> for how long? >> Two and a half three years I was very depressed. >> Yeah. >> How are you not dead? Like how are you still alive? Like depression is something that's very hard to deal with. And for such a long time >> the whole time. No, I wasn't depressed the whole time but I was I didn't >> out of a job. So it was a wakeup call. I did a lot of different things throughout throughout I wasn't out of a job this whole time. So what happened was was co then co started fa fading out and I started doing was like you know what I'm going to do business consulting. So where do I start? I figured let me go to other payroll companies and tell them I can help them. Let's see what I can help them in anyway. So I went to a guy incubate which you all CEO of CHS payroll a great guy >> and I asked him >> how how can I help he's like yes I have I'm I'm serving one sector I want to start serving a different sector there's this product that I want to implement I don't have anyone in my office who want to come in we agreed on a price shook hands a nine-month project it's like okay we're going to make some money >> were you happy with the money >> I was happy with the money at the time That's um I started doing that >> was full-time in office for 9 months. >> No, I was not in a full-time job. I came in whenever it went by goals. I finished a certain part. I got a certain amount of money and I finished it very quick because I was been been doing this. It's my industry. One thing led to another was their salesperson. And >> he was there when you started working with them. >> He was there when you started working with them. He was doing great. I remember meeting him the first day and we right away hit it all. And it was chemistry right away. And um I remember thinking this guy's a genius. This guy's selling a product. I I'm coming from Finger Check and I know their product. Finger Check is back then was 10x product. I don't know what they're selling now. CHS. I'm sure they have a very good product right now, but at that time um I was comparing and I was seeing this guy selling and selling and selling and marketing himself. Back then, nobody wasn't doing videos, LinkedIn. He was courageous. >> You know what I could do with such a guy? Finger check. You know how much how much we can grow. It's like my brain was going. We developed very and I told him I told him I'm really impressed with you. I think he can do crazy things. That opened some type of energy and he was like, "Yeah, I can do crazy things." And then one day he calls me up. I think uh I think I want to I want to one day see myself doing a company together with you. because I told him I I didn't have any major plans. I didn't know where I was going. I my brain already started thinking maybe I'm opening up my own thing. That's this is what I know. This is what I could. And I had my niche with small businesses. Coming from finger check, I knew exactly what small businesses want and where this opening the market, but I wasn't sure if I want to go back into where I come from. Then one one conversation led to another conversation and we decided we're going to open up our own company. It wasn't called our first name was Payday, but it was trademark. We couldn't use that. We needed to find a >> I love the name Friday. As someone who appreciates marketing, it's such a good name. >> It is a great name. It's not our credit, >> but the website is Friday app. No. >> Yeah, I could I can get Friday.com for a couple million dollars. >> Yes. One day. >> One day, man. >> Who owns it now? >> Want to hear something? Maybe. Maybe not. One day. You don't have to have the perfect URL to build a multi-million dollar company. >> That is true. >> You don't have to. >> But if you can extra, it's >> feels amazing. >> It's good. It's good. >> Like the website Blackbird has taken. Blackbird recruiting is a long domain. I don't like it. It is what it is. Or maybe the initials BBR. >> I'm excited to talk to you today about United for a health share. If you are spending thousands of dollars every single month on health insurance, this is an alternative for the firm community. You should go check them out. It's not health insurance. It's a health share program. Me and my wife and our family, we switched over about two years ago. We've saved thousands of dollars. Our our premium or or the cost is $500 a month. They don't use the word premium because whatever those terminology is meant more for health insurance, but for the first 10 listeners who are watching this video and going to sign up using code blackbird, you're going to get your third month free. So that's something I'm very excited to share with you guys. Make sure to go check them out. United Rafa Health Share. See you next time. >> I remember Pas at CHS. I went to visit him once in the office of Williamsburg. Cool joint. Um. Yeah. So you guys started talking. Yes. So we built a great relationship and then we were like, okay, we have sales and marketing now. We have operations and vision. We have me. We need someone to that can build product. Sorry. Bleep that out. >> Yeah, bleep that out. So, we uh went on the HUD. We spoke to a lot of different people. >> Martin, what's his Hebrew name? He's actually my first cousin, my wife's first cousin. >> What happens if you need to fire him? >> Uh, he knows that. That was our first conversation. >> That would be a very interesting dynamic at the family weddings. >> So, the truth is yes and no. Because if I would have a very close relationship before that, I wouldn't have gotten into we >> you're not giving up a lot. Got it. >> I didn't have a close relationship with him. I knew him. He's my cousin. Like I'm meet him three times a year, but that's that's about it. But I had a conversation with him. He was building custom softwares himself. He had his own small software studio with his developers and was building a lot of different products. >> He had his own business. >> Had his own business. >> Cool. >> He closed his business. He joined Friday. >> Wow. >> I sold him the vision. Yeah. It was one of the greatest bets I took. He in the beginning of a company, you need a kind of a jack of all trades. You need someone that can do that many hats and need someone that can solve problems. You need someone that can do infrastructure. You need someone that can do design. >> You don't want >> it's basically a team what a professional or a setup company has 10 people and you need one person to be able to do and I was able and you need someone that's quick. >> Yeah. that's going to do it fast because if you get >> in tech especially >> and he did our MVP in two weeks from when we started writing our first call to we had our first customer was two weeks. >> What do you mean till you had your first customer? >> Till I had my first >> when when did you decide what was the process? Because many people think you just get a friend, start a business together. Uh-uh. Big no. No. Call a lawyer. Write up a proper partnership agreement. >> Yes. big I mean get take care of all the headaches first before they actually come up. So we first agreed on the >> How long was this process these conversations and meeting with and talking to Pin until you know let's do this let's call a lawyer let's figure this out how long when I mean give me a timeline >> I would say around 6 months >> from when you and started chatting >> yeah until we finalized and started actually working towards towards building Friday it was a lot of it took probably six months that we were able to just start writing, start doing anything, >> right? >> And I miss those those early days. It's still early, by the way. I'm still experiencing I I consider myself very early in the game as far as the journey of Friday and myself. Um try to remind myself that all the time. Um but yeah, there was a lot of you know, when you start out something, you have a vision, which is a lot of people get scared of the word vision. It's basically the idea. How do you want things to be >> right? you're doing this because you have this imagination. People are going to love it. And and it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And and the more time you can spend in it, the better because at some point you get pushed into reality where you have to deal with day-to-day, >> right? >> And if you didn't spend enough time on your vision, >> you start forgetting why you're doing it, >> right? >> Why are you doing what you're doing? >> And I encourage everyone to ask ask them the question and I do that sometime with my clients like why are you doing what you're doing? And there's always an answer. People think there's people don't ask a question because they think there's no answer. What do you mean I need to make money? >> What's your why? >> There's infinite ways to make money, >> right? >> Go rob the bank. >> There's there's infinite ways you're doing what you're doing for specific reasons. >> Um, >> so six months was about conversations. >> Yeah. We didn't we sat with lawyers, we sat with other founders, we sat with investors. We >> Why did you say no to other founders? >> Um, guess what? One of the co-founders potential was my brother. I felt like uh I sat in the meeting and he tells me it's going to take you around a year to get your product which makes sense. We want a full-fledged product, right? It take me around a year. Sorry. >> Uh-uh. Next. >> Close second was two months, >> right? >> And that's what we did. We built stuff very, very, very fast. >> How'd you find your first customer? Who was your >> first customer? It was drum roll my wife. >> She had she had a business. She had four or five employees and she started using my my product. My actual first paying >> how does it work? What's the structure? Like $7 8 an employee per month. >> $9 an employee per month for time tracking only. So we first built the time tracking part and then we build payroll. So actually fun story. We started out, we had a partner that's going to do our taxes and our banking. Every payroll company, unless you're very big, uh, has partners that or third party softwares that they use in the back end just to run the back end to make payments to the IRS and agency. So, we we decided to go with someone >> and they were like, okay, great. We signed contract and all all of that and we spent four four to six weeks to build out our product. We had a full functioning payroll product. It wasn't perfect. >> And the last that was to show it to their team. >> To whose team? >> To our partners team to show them show them our product. We were startup. We showed it to them >> and they didn't like it. >> Why? >> They didn't tell us um why they didn't like it. They they just told us we decided we're not going with startups. It's not in our model right now. So we have to take six weeks of work. We had a product ready to launch. We have to wipe it out off the shelf. Where are we going from there? So first we have to find a new partner. So that so we ran away said listen whatever it is we always wanted to have in our vision time tracking. How long is it going to take you to build time tracking? Two weeks. Let's go for that. In the meantime, I will figure out >> the different partners. It's going to take me time to find the new partner, check with them, figure out the product. >> Is it an account? When you say partner, like an accounting firm? >> It's not like an accounting firm is a partner for a regular business. Payroll companies have >> um partners that help them submit um tax payments. A bank, you need a banking partner. It's just like a credit card processing to move the money. >> Unless you want to become a bank, you sell. You want to get a financial license, which at a startup, that's a very big cost. Eventually when you when you become bigger it it kind of makes sense because it it's a lot of hard cost that comes to that >> right very cool. >> So we had to >> that was a waste of time. >> It wasn't a waste of time. It was a great great great learning experience. Yeah. All these things were our learning experience. >> Went with a partner ended up being a terrible partner. Terrible partner. Um, in the beginning it wasn't such an issue but clients started getting notices and we we did everything we can. We covered things from out of pocket but end of the day the that partner had a malfunction in there and so we had a crisis basically a year into the business. We had around 200 customers or two years into the business but 200 customers still relatively a small company. Uh we we debit it back clients are calling us up that nobody's getting the money. All employees are waiting for the money. Like what do you mean they're not getting? We call up our partner. There's nobody to talk to. They're saying that their bank that they're using that the bank that that the bank CEO is not answering basically for a week. >> This is a small business. This partnership this part >> they were also a startup. Um they've raised $30 million. She thought they were pretty much legit and they were legit and >> I I don't believe in the leadership. I think the leadership was terrible and the way they communicated, >> but basically for a whole week certain people didn't get paid and while the money was drawn from the for the company's bank account. >> So think about think about a business where I don't know how long we were maybe a year maybe two years into business. >> The whole business is still like this and is like calling me that's it. We're going out of business. We're going out of business. Like, listen, nothing is putting us out of business. Nothing is putting us out of business. And we >> How many clients didn't get their money? Didn't have many clients where the employees didn't get paid. >> There was most of our clients were smaller clients. I would say around 100 to 200 employees didn't get paid. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Around 200 employees didn't get paid. >> A real like crisis for a small business. >> This was a crisis. I still have >> How did you deal with it? >> This is very interesting. First of all, I I don't know. I got higher powers that allowed me to deal with this. So, Pas first of all was on the phone with every customer. Tell them, "Listen, this is the communication that we're having right now. We don't know. We're trying to work with a different partner. We had our operations >> transparency, >> huh? Transparency was on the call. He was taking the bullets firsthand. I was working on the back end working trying to find different partners, different solutions. We ended up >> Where was the money?" >> So, first of all, we had we had two problems. Where's the money? I said, "Well, we can't let other people process payroll with his back." Like, uh, we don't know what's going to happen. We need to find the solution. People need to process payroll. >> So, we ended up uh, shout out to what's their name, Amandra, PC Payroll. I think they have a new name, right? Right now, it's a repair company. So, one of my employees used to work there. Called up his like can can you do us a favor? Can you hook us up? >> Can we use your bank? >> Right. >> He's like, yes. So, we just sent him a file. He he did the regular pile no charge for a couple days, two three days, no charge. People got the money. Nobody knew anything because not all companies got affected. Only people that processed. >> So that was taken care of. Now we needed to find a new partner. >> Now we were not happy with that partner that we were using for a long time. But to make a change, like I said, just like to quit a job, it's a big thing. It's it's programming. It's hours and hours of >> setting up an integration and it's a lot of different components and a lot of different things >> that we estimate it's going to take us around 3 to four months to make a switch and we have just have to find the time >> really >> but because there's a crisis within two weeks >> boom >> boom we knocked it out >> so it was a good thing the best thing it was the best thing >> and I have a recording where I'm uh Pas recorded this where I was having a FaceTime with the team it was Friday, Friday on Friday [laughter] and I was telling them I don't remember telling them tell I don't remember saying these things but I guess I was in it. I was telling them listen everything that happens is only to take us to a better place. Hashem only sends good things to us. >> Okay. >> Anyways and um and that's that's what I truly believe. I can't see it but I know it's good. I know it's good. I know it's good. That was the best thing. We need to get away from that company fast. They still exist, but they pivoted into a different industry. >> I wonder why. >> Yeah. Hashem were here today. Yeah. Close over close to,200 customers. >> Customers or employees? >> Companies. Employees. Much more. >> 1200 companies. >> You launched a business what three years ago? very bad with these gauges. Around three and a half years ago, I would say it depends when you start counting, right? When I wrote the partnership, when I opened the LLC, when I launched my first time training product, my payroll product like >> when your wife when you got your first customer because that was two weeks after you started writing code, >> right? >> So, how long ago was that? >> I think it was in 2022. End of >> get investors, >> of course. >> For what? for >> hire more developers? Like what do you like what do you need? >> No, I I raised money initially at >> what to pay your salary >> to pay I had two developers. >> Okay. >> I needed a small salary. Yeah. Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me and my partners. >> Um just hard costs off. >> So whoever invested hopefully it will be the best investment they ever did. >> It will be their best investment ever. >> Just they have to be patient. >> Yeah. Are they involved in the business? >> Um no they they're in touch with me. I talk to them if they they call me I send emails every quarter investor investor updates but yeah no >> they're not >> I took a lot of small checks from a lot of people I have like 10 15 people investor >> the biggest check is 250k the smallest check is 50k so >> love that >> was a hustle was a lot of fun I met a lot of great people >> lot of you ever do that again that whole grind >> I would so I made a big mistake if anybody watching wants to raise money don't do what I did So what I did was I went out, sold my vision, met 10 people, got five checks, stopped raising money, went to build my company, >> and went again to raise. >> I saw the bank accounts low, went again to raise the worst thing. Why? Because there's always stages. There's reasons why you raise money, right? So in this stage, the reason is I'm building a company. So what are you selling? You're selling a vision. So a vision is one there's one way of selling that. And then there's a >> people call that a seed round. No, >> a seed round. preede >> when you sell the vision you want to be in the vision the second you already have results and it's always results are different than the actual vision now they start question now now it's not exciting anymore in other words now it's okay so you have 10 customers I'll come when you have 20 I come I thought that when I'll come to so look what I did in two months I built a product in two weeks I built a product in five weeks I got this amount customer in three months and six months and that will excite But it's opposite. It's opposite. You come, you sell your vision, people need to buy into the vision. Then you raise your round day where you show them that you were able to execute part one of your vision. You need to execute part two and you need more money. You in other words, don't raising money is a full-time job. It's a three-month full-time job. Meeting people. >> How'd you figure out how much to give up the investors? >> So, >> because you've never done that. >> So, I spoke to a lot of different founders. Shout out to Mushi Bear Taitam that you know Cherry he's been a big um guinea coach. He helped me a lot. >> I did a lot of research and I also knew what I wanted. I knew I knew what at least what I think what what where I want the company to be. >> How much did you end up raising? $2 million. >> We ended up raising $1.5 million. >> That lasted you I guess now you're up and running. >> Now we're Yeah. Now we're more or less profitable >> until you took your first paycheck from the business. not investors that you're able to like >> like uh profits we're still not taking >> no I guess you start taking paychecks from day one because otherwise it won't be able to work correct we took patience from day one we still are not taking any profits on the company and we're not planning to take any profits in their time the goals are just too big for that >> and we're really focusing on making the simplest and easiest to use product out there for small businesses >> I'mma will be very successful with that >> how is the sales team now >> we We have four sales people plus >> we have three customer service, two developers, three partners. >> Love it. >> And then we have also outsourced team like for back and stuff like in the Philippines. >> What's the hardest part about working with your founders? >> What do you disagree on the most? >> So it's a very very good question. I guess the hardest part working with founders is surrendering. Compromising or surrendering? >> Surrendering, not compromising. I hate compromise. Compromise like what do you believe in? You never compromise. >> For example, um, I love you very much, but we're going to talk about you. Is a great guy, right? >> Lay him down until him's a great guy because has been building up Friday, hustling, signing up clients, right? But there's still for example one of the visions originally for Friday was that P is going to do become a content creator become an influencer on Instagram on LinkedIn and YouTube but that never developed for right reasons right because he was busy he was focusing on whatever whatever the case >> surrender to us surrender to it like it's going to get there we're going to get there right now that's why I'm sitting here like I decided you know what it's time one of the reasons why you take a partner is you want to share responsibilities. Um, but one of the reasons why I took a partner back in the day was because I was simply afraid to do what does. I didn't think I can do it like he does it and I still don't think I can. I think he can do way better. But I'm the CEO of the company, the buck stops by me and I have to do what it takes out of the that's what we'll do. We'll we'll start creating content and we'll be successful. hopefully he'll get inspired and we'll start doing it as well. Leading by example. Um, and that's just one small example. And the same thing goes for them. Like they wanted certain things, let's say operations to run a certain way and they need to surrender. So that's the hardest part. And at the same time, I would say for me it's harder because again, I'm not not in their shoes. I'm not trying to say I have a harder job. What I'm just trying to say is as a CEO of a company, the Bucks SPO, there's no such a thing. You can't say oh well but I do my investors did this or my partner did this my buck stops by you you take full ownership of this company no matter what of its successes and its failures no matter whose fault it is. So how can you surrender? The question becomes like how what do you mean you surrender? The answer is if there's no proper way for you to go about the next step in a way where you don't hurt someone, in a way where you don't scream and in a way where you we don't do unethical things, you just don't do it. You surrender and things will work out. >> That's that's hard because I like to take control of stuff. >> I hear that. >> What's one thing you learned about internal relationships in the startup? Because you have to move very very quickly. Do you only hire people who can move fast or rather if you have two candidates? Someone's fast but not super diligent or let me give an example. >> Ask you a question. I let me answer that question. Ever were a backseat driver. You're a kid, little kid, and you were going through the mountains and you were constantly asking, "Daddy, where do when are we arriving? When are we arriving?" It was the longest way. >> No, but I know what you're referring. You know what? Because your kids are doing it. [laughter] Exactly. So, and then you have where you're you're a driver and you're constantly busy. You're focusing on other things. Oh, look what we can see here. Look what we see. Oh, you take a nap and all of a sudden you're there. >> I think that's same when it comes to startup and speed. The constantly you're watching like when are we getting there? When are we getting we can do faster the slower everything looks and the more depressing you become. So of course you have to have speed and things have to move fast and if you see something is not going fast enough you should point it out and we constantly do point that out but at the same time again surrender enjoy the process certain things take time >> right >> certain things takes time and having that in the culture where no no we have to do it becomes taxy becomes terrible and your product is not good enough so how do you balance that you make timelines and then you step step away. Usually you don't you don't meet the timelines. So you make a new timeline. And obviously if you see this like we constantly not meeting expectations, you have a talk with that employee. You have a talk with that department um and constantly motivate. But you have to take a step back. You have to let go. You have to let go. And all of a sudden things start popping up, >> right? >> And then you're like when did we make all of that? Like for example the sales team that's not so devolved in product development like wow we have this already for me I'm in it I'm working with them it's like well working this so learning to have the bird's eye vision on not only on the future of the company but also in the current moment and staying present I think that's that's what real speed means that's where it's at now many business owners know that having a bad employee could could be a terrible investment you're losing money. It's It's really It's bad in a startup. Hiring the right people is crucial. How do you make sure you're doing it right? >> There's no such thing as a bad employee. There's only a bad CEO. >> Someone who's not sh there's toxic employees. >> Then you shouldn't be an employee anymore >> or >> So, how what do you what is your process to make sure you're hiring the right people that are helping you meet your goals for your business? >> The best way to make sure you hire the right people is by firing the right people. >> Huh? >> Yeah. Yeah. What do you mean fire the right person? >> You can't know from talking to someone 30 minutes or 3 hours that you hired the right person. You can assume. You can try. You can see if there's chemistry. You can see if he knows what he's talking about. You can try to see the best that you can. And with experience, you get better at that. I'm I think quite good at it. When I talk to someone, I can see if they can work. But even myself, I can be wrong. So don't forget about the hiring process. The hiring process comes later in the game. So again, if you're a new business owner for 3 years, hire what you think is right, but learn to fire. >> Learn to fire. >> Quickly or not, >> as quickly as you can. Obviously, no chaos constantly hiring, firing. That doesn't make sense. You have to work with people. You have to >> So everything if you take it to the extreme, it's going to be it's it's a terrible idea. If you're going to hire someone and constantly fire, you're never going to be able to find the right thing. Nobody's going to be perfect. going to get around. You have to know, let's put it this step two steps back. What's what's the >> what is the most important part to you? This employee should be able to do >> boil it down to three, four, five, six things. If he's good at three and four of the six, okay, great. Now, the other things is where you have to work on. You're also not perfect, right? >> You're also not perfect in your job unless you're I don't know. Nobody's perfect. So, focus on your imperfections. Focus and try to help grow your employees from the bottom up instead of coming from the top down. Hey, you're not good at this, you're not good at this. Bring them up, compliment them, let the light shine, and they will you'll lead by example. They'll come over and and they'll learn from you and they come around. And if they don't, you let them go. Something I learned in the world of recruiting is before you hire, take time to figure out what does success look like in this position. Even for what might people might think is a regular bookkeeping position, right? Just make sure data like the financial information is in the software. Yeah, but what does success look like in this position? Take the time, put away all your notifications and distractions, turn off your phone and sit down and write this person is going to be in this position. How do I define it to be successful? Once you know what you're looking for, then you go find that person. But you need to know first what you need. >> In other words, what what's your desired outcome? >> Yeah. And then go find that person. >> I love that. Um, many people hire based on hebi hiring. You smoo with them and you like them, you click, but then they're three months in and they like you're so far behind, they're not up to speed, but they're a great sch smoozer. So like, oh, great guy to work with. No. >> So the truth is when you start hiring, that's that's how you do it. >> You need to first know what you need and what you're looking for. Like when you go buy a house, right, the broker is going to ask you, "What's your budget? >> Do you need a master bathroom in your master bedroom? >> Do you need a pool? >> There's all these parts." Sure. So Tony, let me ask you this. >> Your average client, how long is your business that you work with? >> Varies. >> Average. >> Um, >> is it their first hire or usually? >> No, I have not worked with companies that do their first hire. I don't think they can afford me. Um, I'll you probably work with companies five employees and up. Um, and how long they've been in business. >> So, exactly. >> A year, two years. So they have a little bit of an idea of what's going on in the company. They've been hiring and now they just have to take a lot of times people are not there yet. They >> all they know is they're busy. They think that this is what has to happen. So part of the process is through hiring and firing, >> right? >> Um but definitely if you could go to a place and where you can say what's my desired dog that would be great. A lot of times you don't it just >> you need it otherwise because they what ends up happening you're wasting so much time and money on hiring people and you're interviewing and you're not sure and this and that. >> Right. >> Right. And and you need to do reference checks. >> Talk to the person life. >> It's very very important. Very important. You sometimes you can do reference checks once you're ready to hire them. Figure out what's the best way to work with them. Can how do they handle change? Do you need to let them know in advance or can they handle it with it? >> Can they handle change right away? >> Like sometimes reference checks are good for that too, but reference checks are >> very very val very very valuable. Um, as the the guy that the buck stops here, CEO in charge, what's the hardest part about your dayto-day? >> During the silence, we'll p we'll put on some like onhold music. >> It's a very good question. I don't I I don't I don't think anything in my job is hard. Honestly, I'm trying to find like >> what's the most challenging part of your dayto-day? >> Challenging is navigating the dynamics of partners and employees and customers. It's like >> just dancing the dance. It's also not challenging. It's I like to dance. So dancing that ends is is uh you know it's could sometimes be challenging, exciting, but >> what's a recent challenge that that you had a hard time working with? >> The recent challenge >> Mhm. >> is coming in this podcast. I'm I was never a person that came out and did >> you say yes. >> So I've made a decision a week before that I'm going all out on content, >> getting out there. getting out of there. I'm not hiding anymore. >> This is the world of where everything is open. Vulnerability is what gets you most further. It wasn't like that uh back in the day. And I'm going to face my fear of rejection and my fear of being not good enough. And I'm going to go all out. And it's a very hard thing. It's a very challenging thing. So if you want to know what's my hardest thing now is going all out. Going all in and content believing myself and not being afraid because I know the rejection is going to come in. People are going to judge. People are going to and it's normal and I also I watch content and I judge people like what the hell are you doing? You don't know what you're talking about. >> But believing if something sounds true to you, there's a very big chance it's going to sound true to others. and just focusing on that. That's my biggest challenge right now. >> It's pretty good. Well, I'll tell you what. When Friday sells for a lot of money, >> Yeah. >> I'm going to be able to say you were my first I was I was your first podcast. >> You were >> um you were an employee. You became then a business owner. What do you think is something that employees need to know? >> It's a very good question >> that many don't or should. >> First of all, I think every business owner should be an employee at some point. first or after [clears throat] [laughter] >> Schwarzbot. >> Yeah. >> Was an employer then became an employee >> and he said that mindset was very very tough to deal with. >> You're a business owner. You have the freedom to make decisions however you want. And then for two years he was an employee. He he said it was very very hard and now he's working becoming an employer again. So I remember um when I was meeting with CEO of CHS to do consulting, he was asking me questions wanted to see if I'm a right fit. So he was asking me questions about how I would do differently, what what I would do differently in my other company in finger chat. I answer them. The truth is I can tell you what I would do differently, but the truth is I don't know what I don't know. Meaning I was never in that seat and I don't know the perspective of things. So it's very stupid of me to have that opinion. I think that's something employees need to understand that if you work for someone, believe in that person and trust that person. Believe and trust in the person. If you don't believe in that person, you don't trust that person, don't work for him. Don't work for him. Work for someone else >> as an employee. >> As an employee, if you don't trust him and you don't believe >> you're looking for a job, how are you going to know to trust gets built over time? >> So again, I'm not telling you to quit now. I'm not giving you practical advice. Go and quit the job if you don't trust. But what I'm saying is >> it's not the ideal job. Have your eyes open. Start searching. >> When you left finger when you joined Finger, you didn't trust the guy. >> Of course, >> you didn't know him. >> I So, okay. When it started out, you started out a job. I don't know anything about it, but he first of all, he sold me on his vision in the interview and I was like, "Yes, this is I'm going to make a lot of money here." >> And I was a big fan. I'm still a big fan. I was a mic for my boss. Everything I know he he taught me, >> right? >> I wanted to work for him. He treated me nice. He every my whole life was around him. It's like listen there's there's three ways to to there's there's and there's right >> right three types of relationships and all of them have beautiful things they have. Right. The aid and Ben the there's a certain mala that there's I'm sorry the aid and rabbi like >> there's a certain simpleness you trust your boss what he tells you to do is a good thing. If he tells you that you have now more >> um that he gives over more control and then he trusts your judgment that's great. That means your judgment is good. This is simple basic life. It's great. I loved it. I did it for nine years. There was a lot of good things about it was amazing. And at some point I outgrew that. I needed something more. I needed a different relationship. Right? So ultimately I'm now in the entrepreneurial thing where I have a very close relationship with Hashem. It's like you can't not >> have a relationship with them. You could you'll be miserable. But for example, coming out doing content was a pure it's like, okay, things need to move a certain way. I want him to move a certain way. It's not going a certain way. What is it that I can do? What am I afraid of? And after asking the question a couple times, it came up rejection. You're just afraid. And >> what are you afraid of? So I know what I have to do. It's a completely different journey. So it's a journey between you and yourself, between your heart and your mind, between you. It's different thing. So I hope that answers your question. >> I think so. But as an more for an employees, what what do they need to know? Is as you were both like is there something that you feel like employees don't really know much? Like if they knew this Oh, wow. Yes. Employees have a job. Let's say you do customer service. You have to make the job the customer happy, right? That's your job and you should do great thing and your job is also to advocate to get more things done for the customer, right? The CFO's job is to make sure there's always money in the bank account with net positive with profit. >> The product job or what >> marketing >> market yeah everybody >> sales >> and they focus on that. There's only one person that has to have everything in mind. Which means is sometimes you have to take money from the bank account that you don't have in order to build a product that the customer wants. And sometimes you have to tell the customer no because you don't have the money. >> Sometimes you have to tell product to develop something that's that's that that the customer doesn't want because you believe this is what the customer will want. >> So you're the person that sees the full picture and anybody else can't see the full picture and they're not expected to see the full picture. And that's why you have to work with someone you trust because he's the one that has the full picture, >> right? >> And even I don't have the full picture. I have to trust >> the boss. The big boss, >> the big boss. >> Um, as we're getting to to the end of the podcast, would you have any advice for someone who's like he has a role job, makes a cushy salary, but hit a plateau. It's already a year. They're pretty bored. Job's getting done. They don't feel like they have a challenge or they're thinking about going out on their own. Any advice? Now, before you answer, there was someone on the podcast that said, "Don't do it." >> Like, don't go out on your own. >> That was my first thought. No, absolutely not. >> It's okay. Answer however you feel comfortable. >> Um, >> open it till >> the journey that you going that you're going to go when you open up is something nobody can prepare you for. >> It's going to be grueling. It's going to be exciting. It's going to be a lot of ups and downs. But on the other side, there's a greater version of you. Go after it. Go careful. Make sure the first thing most important thing is your wife and your kids. Don't forget about that. >> Support. >> It's more than support. Be the be the husband that you are and that you could be. The husband is not a title. It's who you are. A father is not a title. It's who you are. CEO is a title. I like that. And if you can be who you are, you will be successful. If you're humble enough and you have enough grit, which is sounds contradicting, but it's not, you'll be successful. And call me. Call me and I'll be happy to walk you through a hard a hard day. >> Reach out to me on LinkedIn, Hashi Goldstein. >> Reach out to me on LinkedIn. >> Wow. Okay. What a good podcast. I hope you enjoyed, Ashley. You are a phenomenal guest. Thank you. >> Make sure to subscribe on YouTube and I'll see you next time.