Binyamim Greenspoon

i think we'll get started my name is benjamin greenspoon i'm the clinical director of neces in lakewood just a little bit about my involvement in this field first i want to say it's a big source for me to be here i haven't been to kashanovshi in the past and it's uh it's really an overwhelmingly rich experience for me just to be here do i have a mic there or is that yeah it's good it's clipped to me can you get it out of there okay as long as it's clear okay so we only have i mean we're officially supposed to stop at 2 30 so i'm going to try to keep to that so i'll try to move along as as we go but i'd like to get some some input absolutely so i've been working with struggling teens and their families for 21 years in lakewood i have like a part day yeshiva work for boys that are 16 and up and this is more of a clinical program where we meet struggling boys and girls and their families and help direct their care i have a small private private practice as a therapist and i i'm a trauma therapist and it was very interesting how over the years for my own development it was very interesting how i started working with these kids and i had the same question i had the same question they have all sorts of challenges and they think whoever is newer here you'll get this over over a shabbos and whoever's been here for in the past this will be simple to you these kids when they have emotional issues when they have challenges in their developmental years it manifests in challenges in the other skype and i had the same question why does it manifest specifically in either skype and what i realized working with these kids towards the beginning of my career where we started working with the kids on a just an individual way as a lay person we were giving them hezek we were taking them out we were giving them individual attention we were giving them more space we were giving them unconditional love we were making all sorts of deals with them incentives and i realized over time that i was i was bumping into trauma some of the kids have worked for and for some of the kids it was like hitting a brick wall and i realized i'm bumming into trauma bumping into trauma and i was bumping into developing personality disorders and i went to school and my interest was understanding trauma and family systems because i saw how much of this affects people's families i shifted a lot of my focus and attention to families because i've come to see how much more of a difference you can make towards the child when you have the families on board as opposed to working just individually with the kids you can be the best therapist in the world you can be the most motivational person in the world but you only see these children a certain amount of time every day and then they go home to their families so if they have a family environment which understands them which can provide them with the support they desperately need which can get out of the way of all the other issues that are coming up which manifests in in the families their healing becomes that much faster that much faster i want to say also that much healthier my my i'll get to you in a minute my private practice where i see people for trauma work most of my cases are kids that have gone gone off and come back a lot of them are young and married some of them are not so young and married some of them are looking to get married but that's my that's my clinical practice so why do some kids struggle have emotional issues go through hardships and it doesn't affect their either skype and why do some kids struggle have all sorts of different problems and effects that you describe so i'm going to describe maybe what is kind of a typical kid that struggles to the point that it starts catching up with them and it starts affecting their either skype but before we'll talk about some of the kids that are not as prone there are some kids that when they go through something they don't think very deeply about it they don't tend to dwell on issues they don't over analyze themselves in life situations they have some good days they have some bad days they have some good teachers they have some bad teachers they don't have this sense of independence that they feel that's upon them to figure out what's going on why it's going on how it's going on what their role in it is why it's happening to them if there's something wrong with them it's not the way their brains work they come home at the end of school and they have a supportive family environment they can come and tell their parents they have enough expressive language they can come and tell their parents that they had a bad day and their parents can give them some extra affection they can help sue them they can do something for them and they go to sleep and they have a better day the next day these are the types of kids that also when they come down they have the ability to reset themselves the type of kids when they get upset they know how to calm themselves down they also don't have so many overwhelming overwhelmingly negative life situations i don't think any of the kids of any of you are sitting here today really fit that profile those are not the kids that end up going off the dark those are not the kids who end up abandoning yiddish guide and abandoning smear shabbos etc i want to give you a a i want to give you a story about a very typical type of situation where it's almost to be expected that there are life challenges the challenges that they went through it'll be a miracle if they don't affect their user skype so i want to tell you about khaym khaim is a very special nashamo he's sensitive he's soft he's a deep child he thinks about things in a very personal and deep manner he cares very much about what's happening he cares why things are happening he asks deep questions he's the type of kid that when he hears something at sora that's going on in claudia's role or something that happened to somebody else he's the type of kid who takes to tillum to bed he gets a bit upset about when there's unfairness to others this guy has a predisposition to struggle if life gives him challenges it's not because he's a bad kid it's not because he's worse than the first child that we described it's because he cares it's because he cares too much we raise our kids what's the first words we tell our children what do we tell them the first thing we tell them to when we tell them when they start talking we tell them territory with a lot of moisture we tell them the first thing when they start talking we want them to know what it feels like to be a is we have the tarot this is our miserable what's the first thing they do when they wake up from the first time that they can remember they watch nagelbasa and they say madani what's the last thing they do when they go to bed they say krishma their lives from the moment they wake up from their earliest memories till the time they go to bed it's part and parcel of every living moment is the background of your skype highlights of family life shabbos it's when we sit around together as a family what do we do we sings mirrors we talk to retail we talk about the power show we talk about all sorts of nissan and employees that happen to claw you strong yiddish is part and parcel about when you're growing up in a from family how you feel about yourself and your relationship with life it's one of the deepest things that you'll ever have a connection to in life our story about khayim he grew up in a house like this it was a nice house a healthy house he heard the most amazing stories when he first went to school he heard learned about the obvious secretary he heard stories about sadikin he learned about amazing mitzvas he sang songs about how sweet taylor is and then life started to send him some curveballs high metal learning disability his friends were grasping what the rebbe was saying try as haiyan could he couldn't understand what was going on got picked on by a bully in the class he was treated like he had soras i heard this from many kids anything they touch becomes tummy nobody can touch it it's a horrible horrible way to feel he doesn't tell his parents what's going on they have no idea well crime has a hard time learning he gets yelled at by his rebbe he sent to the principal because he was doodling he wasn't following direction in class heim was completely confused crime develops anxiety racing thoughts it becomes harder and harder for him what was already difficult to focus becomes harder and harder for him to focus his palms are sweaty before he walks into the school building he's afraid constantly that people are going to see that there's something wrong with him why can't he learn why can't he focus why is he different than the other kids why is he not being matsuyaka khaim was shown pornography by a classmate after school on the way home from a smartphone that his friend found if haim had all of these things it would be a miracle of crime wouldn't go off the door any one of these things are enough to completely shut time down and i've only said some of them he's got this deep sensitive nishama what does he do he darwin's tasha he pours his heart out when he goes to sleep at night he begs hashem to make life easier all he wanted to do was to learn like other kids he wants to be happy at some point when life stops making sense his whole yiddish guide stops making sense it becomes too painful it becomes too painful to think of all his shortfallings in the other skype it becomes too painful for him to think that he can't learn hashems he's so frustrated his fearless word answered he can't bring himself to darwin anymore after he stops participating and all the things that he was supposed to do deeper and deeper and more troubling feelings settle in i'm a disappointment i'm a failure i'm worthless i can't make it these feelings they spread out in three areas in life and his family life and his social life and his relationship with hashem a child feels good when they make their parents proud they feel good when they're doing the right thing when they're being a good kid they feel good when they have a good social standing when they're not performing as they should all of these areas become threatened finds it very hard to feel good around his parents when he brings some failed tests he has to have them signed it's very easy to see when you see parents going to a pta it's very easy to see who's got the successful kids anybody who's a reviewer see the parents walk in with the smile and they walk out the smile and they have a skip in their step and the ones who don't have the successful kids it's also very easy to see doesn't want to see their face when they come home from pta he wants to stay in his room in those days a person saw a child's social life there's social roles there's a social identity when a child grows up they think of themselves as part of a family unit where they live where they go to school they're not old enough yet to think of themselves as individuals with certain personalities they have certain strengths they have skills they have interests this happens later on in healthy teenage developments younger children think of where they fit in in their family in their school and with their friends i'm haym i live in muncie i attend yeshiva's bay stovet if all is working well that identity is a good identity unfortunately haim doesn't have this liberty he thinks of himself as a struggling child he defines himself as the black sheep in his family the failure of the school the troubled one the one who can't manage on his own he doesn't have an internal way of feeling good when we think about the relationship with hashem somebody who's grown up in such a part and parcel of every waking moment in their life it's about how they feel with their either skype when they start not doing well in other areas of life they start thinking themselves they're a bad person i'm worthless i'm going to get him i hear this from all the kids that i meet i'm going to hit him anyway what's the point hashem doesn't want to listen to might view us rosh hashanah time all the kids they bring home they have a nice project and they bring home a scale and it has on at the mitzves and average and it's very cute and they're proud to show it to you and we put on more and more mixes and that gives us to a place that we're going to be able to be zaikabadin a child like haim he looks at that scale and he thinks he's got his average way down on the other side when he hears who's going to live and who's going to die who's going to be successful who's not going to be as successful who's a russian who's exotic this is not a good time for kai he probably leaves that scale in his knapsack let's think of he's got low self-esteem he's not doing what he's not doing well in learning he has trouble controlling his anger he's got so much frustration and confusion inside crime's getting sent out of class all the time now he has many more instances of discipline and punishment as opposed to praise and success how heavy is his scale on the negative side heim's situation progresses he's older now he has cumulative frustration many many years of it he hasn't felt good in years in years now he misses minion he stops saying brachus all the time he starts watching things he shouldn't what side of the scale does he feel he's on now a little marble there's no place for a person like me and alamo rosh hashanah is now the worst day of the year children think in a very black and white way they don't know how to say i'm a good person i have some things that i need to work on they think of themselves i'm good or i'm bad when they think of themselves as bad a number of different things happen either they start playing the part how does a bad person act how does a bad person talk that's who i am today or they get depressed and they stop functioning another option is that they get extremely dysregulated emotionally because they have absolutely no idea what to do many kids do all of the above we think of all the elements of him now talking about yiddish guy think of all the almond haven the yum tavern become burdensome and painful pesach from the time pesach comes in climbs already thinking about the arab on him he gets to the he gets to the russia russian malwa his little brother asked innocently he says hi mirosha i've heard this a number of times shibuya comes along everybody's celebrating kabbalah they stay up and learn all night what does haim do he can learn he doesn't leave his room he's a stranger to yomtif while everybody else is celebrating shabbos shave is the best day of the week not for struggling kids shabbos becomes the hardest day of the week they have nothing to do they have nothing to distract themselves haim looks at the clock and counts down the minutes for shabbos to be over three days yamtif are a living gehenna at some point the only possible way to live without constant feelings of disappointment shame low self-esteem low self-worth overwhelming pain and anxiety is turn off feeling to resolve these painful topics it's like they turn off a switch all of a sudden they don't have to feel any pain they don't care anymore it's too painful to feel it's too disturbing years and years and years of cumulative pain and frustration i don't think about it i tell myself i don't care i can finally sleep at night i finally feel some sense of calm deep down those feelings are still there but on the outside that's the way it looks they absolutely don't care at one point climb turns off is the other sky switch he doesn't feel like a bad person anymore he doesn't feel shameful he has some relief the next thing that happens is they become a stranger to themselves if we look deeper into this world of these struggling kids when their healthy identity falls apart from their family from their school from their core values they start to feel like strangers who am i what does a person like me do what don't they do what do i stand for in their mind it's something like this i don't know who i am i don't know where i'm going i don't know what's right or wrong i don't know how i should look i don't know how i should talk i don't know how i should behave their sense of security and safety falls apart the world is no longer a place that makes sense to them when the person doesn't have a safe sense of self they don't have a way to feel security when there's no security they don't have predictability what's tomorrow going to bring there's no safety there's no sense of constancy we function because we have a schedule we wake up in the morning we go to work we go to daven we come home to our families we go to sleep if you don't have that you don't have a sense of predictability and security in the world you no longer you no longer feel like you're living you start surviving i don't have time to talk about survival but i can give another whole another whole lecture about survival how people act when they when they're surviving most of these kids when they're struggling they hold it inside and it's years before the before that it manifests to the point that the parents really understand what's going on when i meet the kids and i ask them where did you feel the way you did they always rep they always report that they felt like they were turned off they were dead inside for years before years before they were actually mahalo shabbos they have already stopped caring about chavez sometimes it looks like it's happening very very suddenly i hear i hear from parents from one day to the next my daughter went from being a basiaco girl and old son she's wearing pants most times it's more of a slow process they go from one school to the next school from this class to that class to this summer program they go an outward bound summer program and slowly they become more and more disconnected from the mainstream in any case this is something that they've been struggling inside for a very very long time i used to say that all these kids are struggling from 7th grade now i say from 5th grade or younger they don't want to burden their parents with it they're too ashamed they don't want to disappoint their parents they don't want to see their parents fall apart so they have a secret and when a person holds a secret inside it eats up at you my parents would only know how bad i am if they would only know that i don't darwin or make brachas if i only know that i don't wait between milks and flavors can you imagine this causes a disconnect from their parents and it caused them to feel isolated from their whole family system to compound all of this when they hit adolescence and this is where we usually see their their struggles manifesting what happens when they become barbas mitsu they become a living missus they're not responsible for everything they do take a boy he has now has the opportunity to to where it's filling what has filling have inside they have kabbalah it talks about skharva inish child is not a lot of weird foreign they don't have enough a child doesn't know how to be sherman kadusha enough to be able to wear its phone this happens at the exact same time that a teenager's hormones kick in to the point the strongest level their hormonal levels will be the strongest and highest than the rest of their lives troubles kids minds will be in the wrong places a lot of the time they're going to be listening to inappropriate things they're going to be talking inappropriately to peers they're going to be watching things that are inappropriate now let's think of sensitive when he was younger he looked at his father wearing his twin his father looked majestic he observed the pair the pair the glory his father had as he adorned this film he loved to wrap up his father's filling with care he would kiss them and put them back in his father's foam bag now he has his own peer he feels like an imposter wearing villain he feels him impure like he's sullying the tone he's bringing tomah to them yet he looked forward to putting on phelan since he was a little child what does he do well he has this skill he knows how to turn this feeling off he knows how to turn all the shame and guilt off so he turns the feelings on him off and he puts his throne on he can tune out all his feelings there still is at the same time he knows what that feeling represents there's a big heaviness as he puts on the tulan he ties himself up with the oil shamayim and he has to declare sovereignty to hashem and that he's going to keep all the misses and he reminds himself that if he doesn't keep all amidst us it's not going to be good his film feel restrictive they weigh a million pounds i hear this from adults who've never taken off their tone that that's the way they feel haim is successful at ignoring these feelings he can put them in the background at least let me let me keep one important midsole it only takes a minute a minute to put on sometimes he puts them on right before shkia for 30 seconds he doesn't want to miss a day he's able to hold this up for a number of years until he can't do it anymore now our thinking of filling brings up the strongest feelings of feeling restricted and heaviness and dread the strongest feelings of angst and pain his fill and sit in the closet when he sometimes thinks of putting on felony experience experiences a cacophony of feelings he feels sadness heaviness feeling trapped he feels anger at himself he feels angry at hashem he feels dirty unworthy and this is just to say a few of the feelings better keep those filling in the closet many times we find that phone is the last thing that they give up but it's the hardest thing to start again like i said many adults who've never had this of letting go that's fun they have this relationship of tune today i've talked a lot about the boys i want to talk a minute about sneeze sneeze is usually the first to go away and the last to come back we're going to take connie she grew up in lakewood she's similar to heim she has a very sensitive nishanna she cares very much she has a flare for style and she loves art she heard from the time that she was a little girl how wonderful the mice sarifka and rachel she heard about the stories of esther amalco and about their tsunius she heard from her teachers about kokwuda basmal and the pride of what it means to be a princess of basis role she yearned to be like them she had similar challenges to her she didn't do well in school she felt less and less part of the good crowd and felt worse and worse about herself she eventually felt like a stranger to the pure innocent depiction of what it meant to be a abbasi straw she needs to do something different that's not working she needs a way to express herself honey finds that she can express her individual in her individuality in her hairstyle she changes her hairstyle she learned that when she dresses up or dresses down people notice her she gets attention she's somebody now when she's a teenager she gets noticed but noticed by boys when she dresses they give her compliments her peers look at her with admiration that she's found a way to express herself and be an individual she's finally as somebody she feels like she can invent a person in a way that's going to work for her connie thinks that she will try on different outfits and styles until she finds the one that feels comfortable and fits right for her i'm eventually going to figure it out in the meantime i can enjoy the attention and the expression of dressing how i feel in the moment i need to reclaim my life i need to reclaim my body which does not feel whole or pure i will keep trying on new styles and expressions until it feels right when hani looks at her old basiaco uniform she feels smothered she feels repressed that uniform is restrictive it's plain it's full of discomfort it's full of pain you're going to find many outfits in hani's closet outfits that she hasn't worn for years you're not going to find her basically uniform that's the last thing she's going to put on from her keeping her now i've talked a lot about regular challenges that kids face this is when we no this is them we don't when we don't bring in a real trauma this is without a real trauma you take abuse you take a real trauma that really sets a person off traumatizes the brain that they can't function and they can't think you could take whatever we've said and you could times it by a hundred it's 2 23. i hope i've given a little bit of insight into how growing up in a from house and having challenges in the developmental years how it affects the trouble with either skype i don't want just this to be something depressing when we can understand this as parents when we can understand this as a community we could shift our focus into how they can find a way a way of security how they can find an identity how they can find the way that they can feel good about themselves because if all we're seeing is them not keeping shabbos all we're seeing is them not going to show all we're seeing is how short their skirt is all we're doing is compounding the problem these kids have a very very different way of coming back and it's not going to be through just putting all those minces back on the ones that are so painful for them the ones that they feel such a disappointment to the ones that they have so much heaviness that there's so much anxiety related to the ones that it took years and years and years of when they felt smothered and when they felt shameful those are not the places that they're going to start it might be the last things to come back and we need to notice this we need to be able to start relating to them and be able to see the goodness in them we need to be able to see their medicine we need to be able to bring out how they can be successful we need to be able to see how they can start feeling that they're part of our system that they're part of our community that they're part of our families we need them to be able to rebuild in such a way that all these things that make them feel separate that they can start coming back to the reconnection will always be a very very re a different reconnection than it will be with how how it left the first places that it could be where they can reconnect is with their families that's the first places that it could be and it'll only be if you can accept where they're at if all you see again is all the things that they're not doing if when they walk into the house they see that all you notice is their dress they see that you're looking at what type of hairstyle do they have today they see that you're looking about you know what time did they wake up what they didn't do you noticed if they didn't make a brocco or wash their hands this is not a way that they're going to connect if you could look at them as the struggling deep nishamas and i don't know why i don't know why hashem gave this challenge to this generation some of the nicest people some of the deepest people some people have the biggest sincerity that they have to go through these challenges and find a very very different way a way that's outside of the mainstream system the mainstream system just didn't it just didn't work for them i don't know if i i only have three minutes i can either say it's about tarot some people can ask some questions you know does anybody want to ask something no you want to ask something go ahead just talk louder as far as everybody know do they have better chances of coming back so the question is is a child who didn't have a big trauma to the knowledge to the best of your knowledge do they have a better chance of coming back okay so even with big traumas well if we look about if we talk about abuse the national statistics are one out of every one out of every four girls and one out of every six boys has a traumatic story in their in growing up and it sounds like a lot but as therapists we do see these numbers about the people that come in it's about that percentage of people that have abuse histories we don't have good statistics in our communities we don't have it i'm assuming that it might be a little bit less but unfortunately we have a lot of these stories too if we think of these overwhelming numbers they think of a class of today there's 25 kids in a class there's 30 kids in a class now how many kids are not making it how many fall out of the system i don't know you have two kids per class three kids per class it's a lot higher of a number of the kids that experience abuse the kids that experience abuse have a much higher percent percentage of possibility of falling out of the system so we find extremely extremely high numbers of kids that are struggling at-risk kids that have gone through abuse and sometimes we don't know about it until years and years and years later my office we ran a we ran a um we ran a grant it was called asap they paid for abuse victims therapy for two years of therapy and we ran this grant for three years and i always had this in my mind i was always thinking from just anecdotally as a therapist and as working in the field i've always said that people need a lot of time before they're ready to come out and admit that something really terrible happened to them and in my mind it was like six years so i asked the people taking the phone calls i said try to keep track how long is it from what time that they're calling and from the time the abuse happened until when they're calling for help so we found two things when parents found out about her parents would call right away when the victims themselves were calling it was anywhere between six and thirty years later almost never almost never two years three years later are they reaching out for help so a lot of times we don't know until much later but in any case you know we have small t traumas and all these negative life experiences and cumulative we call it it's complex trauma it's complex ptsd it's not in the dsm diagnosis but really so too abuse doesn't really fit in the dsm diagnosis because that's also only life-threatening situations but we know as clinicians and as people in the field people have the same traumatic symptom symptoms whether or not they have cumulative trauma they have complex trauma many many negative things that went on it produces the exact same results i'm just going to add on when these kids struggle and they do all sorts of crazy things that itself is traumatic they all have trauma i'm speaking on sunday everybody in this room has trauma so are the statistics better i wouldn't say the statistics are better because they all have a lot to work through i would say the statistics are good in general when we can give these kids enough love and enough support enough opportunity enough possibility for healing we're seeing most of these kids make it back yeah go ahead they deal with the typical struggles of school how can we do as much as we can preventively that they should come out whole as cool as possible yeah it's an excellent question it's an excellent question i wish i had an easy answer but the thing that i do want to say you know you come to such a big event and there's so many families there and it feels like society is falling apart i do want to say that things are better than they used to be there's so many more programs in schools there are them are so much more better tuned in the parents are so much more aware the kids are getting so many more services there's so much more extracurricular programs there's so many more different options for kids that are struggling we are doing things it's never enough and we have to keep doing things go ahead my understanding is that the trauma starts with the parents and then if you have like a sensitive child that could like pick up on that and zone in on that is that could you address that i'm not sure what you mean by that if the parents had trouble growing up well i didn't think i was going to talk about this today but they said they say that hitler is going to have an effect on us for five generations and we're seeing this that hitler is going to have an effect on us for five generations and we're seeing this we have repressed trauma we have communal repressed trauma and this generation is expressing it and the people in this room are maybe a little bit of a sandwich generation they were close enough to the holocaust you know we say that trauma victims need at least six years to put between trauma holocaust victims they needed 75 years and their kids weren't ready to deal with it or express it either was locked up they didn't go there but inside there's a tremendous amount of suffering and anguish that's been going on and it hasn't been addressed and the kids today they're all experiencing it and they might be experiencing it for all of us so maybe we didn't do the work and our kids have to do the work but at least we can do is that we can help them do the work yeah go ahead kids don't want to go for therapy kids do not want to go for therapy how do we help them we help them as parents we help them as parents every person if you if your kids need therapy and they're living in your house go for therapy you're going to become their therapist now you probably can't directly do therapy but you can set up a therapeutic environment inside your home but we try in therapy when people first come in for therapy and they're not quite ready to work on their issues we want to establish safety we want to establish unconditional positive regard we want to establish the sense of we see we see the ability for them to solve their issues we believe in them we want to be able to identify their strengths we want to be able to have a non-judgmental atmosphere we want to take all stress and anxiety out of it this is something that everybody can do in their house it takes a tremendous tremendous amount of work tremendous amount of work but if we work hard enough i've seen enough parents do it really conflictual situations really really challenging situations you work hard enough you'll have a therapeutic environment you'll have your child want to come home because he knows he or she knows that there's a lot of love in that house and there's good food waiting for them and there's people who express interest in seeing them and they're going to have good things to say and they're going to give them compliments and they're going to notice the good that they're doing and even when they're doing something bad they'll be able to support them and give them hazard to it takes a tremendous amount of work so will you go for therapy you go for therapy anyway because you have to deal with everything that's going on but we have the opportunity to do this and i think that the people that come here you're the brave i'm getting a sign for five minutes and i thought i was over time where this these are these are the brave people who come here and say i'm willing to look past my shame pass my disappointment pass my own feelings of frustration and anger i'm going to come i'm going to learn i'm going to get support i'm going to understand what works for these kids i'm going to understand how they think and feel i'm going to understand why they're doing what they're doing and i'm gonna figure out what i can do to be in the best position to help out my kids go ahead i'm not aware of books that that teach this about how to establish a home as a therapeutic environment i am not aware of it and if you're looking for the right therapist you need to find a therapist that's familiar with this with struggling teens and young adults because most parenting therapists are not going to give you this type of insight they're going to be telling you about how you have to establish rules and how you have to have discipline and how you have to follow through and how you have to you you can't be an enabler you know a lot of those types of things and that's not going to create a therapeutic environment that would work for kids who don't have any issues this is a hold if you need to find therapists you need to find people hashem there's a tremendous amount of them here at this conference so shop around get to know some people go into a lot of classes i'm sure you pick up a lot of stuff go ahead yeah i can recommend the book okay go ahead sure okay good thank you yes go ahead one thing i've always had a problem with young adults once they're over 18 the parents really don't have any say in like myself once they're young adults if they're going to a therapist already and you don't feel that they're helping them or directing them to the right you know you you don't have any input to tell the therapist what is going on with the child once they're really struggling you have very little input about how the direction is going to go right what you can do your part is what you could do in the home it's not going to be about the type of therapy that's not going to be your part sometimes in the best of cases you're going to develop such a therapeutic home environment that they're going to come over to you and they're going to actually seek your guidance and help and direction it's rare it happens sometimes if you can all get there skrumhabi you're very very fortunate go ahead glad you're raising your head i have to uh how to deal with siblings is that is that one of the forums here today about how to deal with siblings yeah well i can't answer that in a minute next year i'm your hashem next year i am i'm going to be here for the weekend if anybody wants to talk to me you're welcome to come over i hope i've been somewhat informative again i want to give you ashika for everybody for being here takes a tremendous amount of strength you're all a bunch of heroes it's a big killer thank you [Applause]