You’re Not Overreacting. You’re Carrying the Past | Psychedelics and Trauma with Avi Davis

So they're arguing with their friend who rejected them in school instead of arguing with their spouse right now, >> right? >> So each of them are arguing with a past person, right? >> And they're getting angry, but not at each other, but at imagined versions of each other, >> right, >> from the past, >> right? Because the interpretation is through that lens. >> You've seen people who can't do things in Judaism because of it. You find them that they panic when they open a gamarra. >> Learning is a good example. Learning is a very good example. >> What happens when they open a safer? >> They freeze. They shut down. They space out. They daydream. Uh yeah, >> davining. You see the same thing? >> Same thing. Either they don't davenin or they fake davining. >> You do psychedelic integration. >> Mhm. >> So you have seen quite a few people who've done it. >> Many >> many who've done it. >> Maybe 40. More than 40 already. >> You've seen 40 people who've done >> in the past 5 years. >> Beyond Therapy, bringing you emotional well-being. >> Welcome Abby Davis. Thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. >> You are one of the hidden gems of Toronto. Experienced therapist for 20 years already. Been doing this and working with the from community and helping people. You bring a lot of that experience to Toronto. Like people run to New York for therapists. They don't know we have you right here. I wanted to ask you first of all anxiety. Anxiety is like this huge topic. It's a real struggle and people who don't have anxiety can't really understand what anxiety is which makes sense if you don't have a lived experience of it. It's hard to really wrap your head around, you know, why is it so hard to to, you know, struggle with or beat or navigate, you know, it's >> so let's say we have somebody >> listening right now who's has knows somebody in their life struggling with anxiety >> and that person it really debilitates that person >> and the person they can't have enough compassion for the person because like just come on get your life together. >> Right. >> Right. How would you explain to them the experience of having anxiety? like how do you explain to somebody who's not feeling it? >> That's a very good question. It's a very good question. >> And get them to have that compassion and space for another person. >> I probably I'll probably give an example of what they struggle with in their own lives because everybody has struggles to some degree. It may not be anxiety, but it'll express itself in some stress related things that are pretty consistent. So imagine those stress, you know, related things that make you stressed not for a week or two, but for 5 years. Imagine living under that stress for 5 years. What would that look like for them? You know, in their thoughts. >> Picture your most intense. Like basically saying, picture like a very stressful time in your life when your business was collapsing, whatever it is. And this guy's going through that on a daily basis. That's right. >> His business is collapsing every day. >> That's right. Exactly. >> Panic attacks. That's a That's even more debilitating. >> Much more debilitating. Much more debilitating. >> Yeah. What's happening then is that the person is feeling like there's a severe emergency going on. >> Yeah. >> And their body's responding as such. Yeah. And it's very scary. And people think they're having heart attacks. >> Uh they might get lightheaded. They might feel like they're going crazy. They can't manage it. They can't control it. They have to leave that physical space and go somewhere else. >> But come on. Like just get your life together. Just you realize it's stupid, right? You realize it doesn't make sense, >> right? >> They have different parts of the brain. >> Yeah. Like come on. Just >> Yeah. >> Stop thinking that way. Obviously, you're not having a heart attack. Like >> just calm down. calm down. >> I will which makes it more anxious. You know, I know a lot of people who have really uh whatever whatever capacity they have, they have like this ability to like really rein in things internally. Like I I know a few people like that and and it works for them. >> That's great. >> But a lot of people it doesn't work for. They can't just, you know, uh move out of it because they want to move out of it. It's really difficult. You need strategies. You need to understand it. You know, I think the educators need to know what things are. They're not going to diagnose necessarily and they're not going to intervene, >> but they need to be able to identify like maybe this is anxiety, maybe this is depression or sadness or this is, you know, >> to flag it and to be to know how to help out to the degree that they can within their scope. >> Yeah. And it's right a guy could kid could be sitting in class, it could be ADHD, it could be anxiety, >> right? >> And the kid could be going out of his brains and disturbing class and he could have an anxiety issue, >> right? Like if the teacher would understand what it means to have like a alarm clock just going in your body a whole day, >> right? >> Nobody would able to sit in their seat, >> right? Which also impairs in concentrate concentration and attention. If you have anxiety, you're you're very much ruminating in your head and so it's very hard to focus. So >> yeah, people always go to ADHD. ADHD >> that's how many more how what percent is anxiety? Probably a big percent. >> A big percent. I would say a big percent. >> Yeah. When everybody's going to ADHD. >> Yeah. And they're also coorbid. They come together often. So it's like which is the chicken or the egg? Was the anxiety first and ADHD or ADHD then anxiety? And >> right >> it's hard to determine sometimes >> but at some point in our lives everybody's going to experience anxiety of some sort. It's impossible not to. We're human beings. >> This is where my mind's going and tell me if this is Yeah. Go. >> There's something I heard about recently which I feel is very relevant >> and a lot of people can relate to and that is Judaism trauma. >> Yeah. >> Shiman Russell calls it learning trauma. that somebody who was pressured into learning or had bad experiences or whatever it was with learning literally opening a gamura puts them into a full pan. They're >> terrifying. >> Yeah. >> I want to hear more about your experiences dealing with different >> levels of Judaism trauma and people's >> Yeah. >> Because I don't think people realize people realize like this guy he's not coming to Davin or he's talking in the back or he's never learns he never opens a gumarra or like whatever it is. >> Mhm. Some people don't realize now sometimes it could be a disinterest some and sometimes it can be real pain related to that. >> Yeah. On a very individual level, I think um I think it could lend itself to a lot of perfectionism. You know, expectations around davining, around cavana, um around learning, how much you learn, what's the quality of the learning, how deep you go, um what do you do on your off time? Um what if you mess up in yushkite? What are the ramifications and consequences? What what's the education around that? So, and I I see it in my own practice that uh it's a real thing. You've seen people who can't do things in Judaism because of it. You find them that they panic when they open a gar. >> Learning is a good example. Learning is a very good example. >> What happens when they open a safer? >> They freeze. They shut down. They space out. They daydream. Uh >> yeah. >> Davining. You see the same thing. >> Same thing. Either they don't davenin or they fake doning or they do a little part of davining just to avoid any consequences. So when they come into >> but there's a lot of negative feelings toward it as Yeah. a lot of negative feelings. >> Do they come in and they feel all these negative feelings they want to what do they want to run out? >> Yeah. They want to avoid they want to try to dive in less you know if you're if you're you know post yeshiva then it's a little bit easier. You have more leeway. >> But if you're in the system and right >> it's much harder. >> Yeah. >> Much harder. So you're saying somebody with these Judaism traumas in the system, >> whatever these pressures came from or whatever negative negative associations, there could be a million reasons, right? >> Yeah. Many causes. >> Yeah. >> Many causes. It could be family of origin stuff. It could be parents. It could be siblings. It could be comparisons. It could be >> schools. It could be a certain rebby. It could it could be anything. >> Could be an event that happened surrounding it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Could you give us like some examples of stories of people like obviously everything changed but some examples of people struggling with Yiddish guy trauma call it? >> Yeah. I would say of I would say a common one is um addictions let's say or if it's not addictions but they're they're engaging in behaviors that are really uh in contradiction to their own values around things and definitely uh you know Jewish values and Yiddishkite values and so there's a real internal conflict around that and I had someone actually um uh I would say I'm putting a few pieces a few uh people that I've seen together so you know to keep confidential and anonymous. Um, but uh I would say you know when you're struggling with something a behavior that's goes against your own values and societal values like you values and it's it's it could be really difficult to work with self acceptance and self-compassion and >> and be kind to yourself and be okay with yourself and that's like no the teach the education is no you can't be okay with yourself because you're doing something good. Yeah. I want to go back to you saying before you went to addictions. What addictions are you even referring to that you see? >> Pornography, sex addiction that has many forms, alcohol, drugs, substances, opioids, you know, those kinds of things. >> You see that all in the community. >> Yeah. It's there. It's present. >> It's there. It's present. >> Yeah. A lot of people, you know, I find uh some clients are more open to sharing and some, you know, imply it and some don't share, >> right? >> Because of the embarrassment, the shame, the stigma, the fear of it getting out even though it's confidential. But >> and and I'm going to push back a little bit. You went to addictions and you said that people have this struggle. Their values say one thing >> and they're doing something else >> and they can't have compassion for themselves. So, I'm going to push back. >> Sure. >> And say what a lot of people would say. Hello, mister. >> Get your life together. Yes. Get your life together. >> Obviously, that's not true. >> Yeah. >> I mean, they are suffering terribly. >> Mhm. I think let's say let's remove the word addiction and replace it with struggle, >> right? Um, everybody struggles with something and some people are going to struggle their entire lives and and in Yiddish and whatever you have this concept. It's not a rar is not a it's not a it's a very familiar concept and it could not be an addiction. So would you tell that same person just deal with it just come on like just stop doing what you're doing or stop thinking what you're thinking or stop uh that that kind of behavior that runs contradict you know in contrast >> but most will say yeah you know this is a real struggle me it's been like this for like 20 years you know I try to d with kavana or I try to do this but I have my phone or everybody has their struggles right just generalize that to the same foundational thinking generalize that to addiction what's the difference the other piece is that there's there's brain areas because there regions in the brain that are really impacted by addictions and this is not the same with a standard you know I don't have kavana or I look at my phone during davining or whatever it is whatever everybody's struggling with this is uh the impact on the brain is quite different which makes it much harder to to deal with >> yeah yeah an internal pain >> yeah the shame the guilt the pain. >> Yeah. So, something interesting on your uh website, something very fascinating >> that's very unique. >> Yeah. >> Is that it says you do psychedelic integration. >> Mhm. >> So, first of all, let's just explain what psychedelics are for those who don't understand it. What psychedelic therapy is, you go somewhere and what happens? >> Yeah. You take a drug and you have a therapist sitting there with you. >> So either a therapist or a facilitator who's hopefully trained and has a lot of years of experience >> and they give you the right dose for you and >> Yes. >> and you go through an experience inside of yourself with the support of somebody by you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> With this medicine. >> Yeah. So I think it's controversial at this point. I think in 5 10 years it won't be just like a lot of other things like but this is a little bit more iffy uh because of the the possible risks or the risks involved in doing this kind of thing. It's been researched. There's much more research I would say in the past 5 years around the benefits um and there are controlled studies. So that's kind of the the context >> right which I'm talking. So uh like everything else it could be used and abused uh it could be used irresponsibly and it is being used irresponsibly and too frequently and uh there are a lot of issues and there are a lot of risks with it >> right >> I want to put that caveat out there so >> right >> um so back to your question >> yes so now back to the question so let's say so you have seen >> quite a few people who've done it >> many >> many who've done Maybe 40 more than 40 already. >> You've seen 40 people who >> in the past five years. >> You knew them before and you knew them after. >> Yes. >> What what did you see happen? >> So, it's very interesting. Uh just to put it out there, I'm not an expert in this. Um I'm interested in this stuff and so I do research. I take trainings. Uh but I'm not an expert in all the strains and exactly what it does. But between the research and anecdotal evidence which is just the people the clients who I see after um there's certain themes. I think one of the main themes uh of what I see and the positive benefits is that there's more uh psychological and emotional flexibility. There's more openness. I would say there's a little bit more self-compassion depends who and how much. Again, this is always on a continuum. There's nothing black and white. There's no categorical answers. So it depends. Um sometimes um these experiences last a while, sometimes they don't, which is where integration comes in, >> right? >> Um integration really is a fancy word for let's try to um integrate what you experienced in your daily life. >> Yeah. >> If you're interested in the scientific a little bit of science, I think it's helpful therapeutically actually if people want to know. There's different uh brain areas that connect to each other. So there are three main brain areas. One of them is the default mode network. And that default mode network is basically when you're idling, when you're not doing much and you're spacing out or you're dreaming or you're not involved in a task, you're going to have thoughts and emotions and feelings that are going to come up. And uh if it's an overactive or disregulated or overactive default mode network then you're going to have a lot of negative self-referential um you know material which is inner critic and negative selft talk negative beliefs and it's just a yeah so it's either either in the background or the foreground >> but it's present and so this is often in different ways uh MDMA and psilocybin will impact the default mode network to make things quieter or just more able to tolerate emotion. >> That's very powerful. >> Very powerful. >> If that inner critic can soften a little bit, become more flexible and >> right that's people's a lot of people struggle with that panic >> default network that also can help them >> also. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. Can lower that >> anxiety, panic, memories, traumas. >> Wow. >> Um and I've seen a lot of benefits. I I know many stories and maybe many people who do it in a certain ways with certain people which is definitely problematic but uh the person you know the clients who go to this person come back and I I haven't seen one negative >> not one negative one nothing >> no >> you said a caveat before that you it's very it is risky and I guess doing it in a safe way >> but you haven't seen one one negative experience >> no no it's very risky for someone who has psychosis of any sort definitely bipolar schizophrenia and those are contraindicated. You know, you know, and again, it's hard to know. How do you know if that person is going to be okay? It's it's not possible, >> right? What about addiction? People are like, "Oh, you're going to get addicted to that drug." Shrooms, you're going to go back to the next day. Ever seen that? >> Yeah, sure. I've had I've had I've had clients who've asked me about it, you know, will I be is it is it a risk? >> Do you have any clients who did it who continued doing it on their own, maybe got addicted? Never happened. >> Never happened. Not that I know of, right? >> But never h No, so far never happened. I think I think if anything it could be helpful for the addiction because the underlying part of addiction is a lot of attachment wounds and traumas and when I say trauma you it's usedly you know everything's not everything like the proper >> not everything's a trauma there's specific definition criteria for >> let's use wounds instead of trauma >> attachment wounds >> right attachment wounds with parent child siblings >> um other things that happen it could be sexual abuse emotional neglect you know specific traumas like that I went to the grocery store and I couldn't find a heart and I was traumatized, right? It's not that kind of trauma. Might be stressful and and and you know, maybe anxietyprovoking and annoying, >> but it's not a trauma. >> So, um uh what was I saying? Yeah. So, for addictions in terms of psilocybin, MDMA and all those things, um I'm leaving out by the way because I is a different brand of psychedelic. It's extremely risky. I've had clients who've who've gone and come back. we integrated but um much more uh the ego dissolution and and the lack of self sense of self is uh it's much more intense and there are many more risks um so I'm talking about MDMAs psilocybin specifically um so going back to um addictions I've had uh people who are concerned you know they've struggled with addiction of any of some sort and they don't want to go do it and uh which is understandable because of the risk, but I haven't seen anyone, you know, I think it's important also the the set and the setting are are super important. You're not doing it uh to avoid an escape, >> right? >> Right. Which is the usual use of those drugs. >> You're using it to to go enter into something that you're usually avoiding. >> So that really shifts the nature of the experience. You know, what it does in the brain, I can't tell you, but it's definitely different. Right. That's very powerful. It's the opposite of addiction. >> Yeah. >> Right. What you're doing is the opposite of addiction. And therefore, >> the chance of getting addicted is not very much because it's a whole different experience. It's the opposite of addiction. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and if you go in and you come out with less anxiety, a little more flexibility, um it decreases the chances anyway at that point, maybe a week or two after that you're going to be addicted, that you're going to get back into the addiction, avoid an escape because >> now you're okay with a little more intense emotion or negative uh negative whatever negative emotion is coming up or thoughts, >> you're able to the window of tolerance, so to speak, is like widened >> and so you have more capacity to hold things that you usually run away from. Wow. That's a small part of your uh your practice. >> It's small. It's, you know, again, it's a tool like everything else tool. Does it help everybody? No. Is it risky? Yes. Uh is it more risky than some therapies? Definitely. >> Um it's a tool and I found it to be extremely helpful for a lot of people in different ways. >> Very helpful without which they really couldn't the therapy wouldn't be enough. >> Yeah. with all the, you know, modalities that are out there, EMDR and brain spotting and sematic and IFS and all that stuff. It it you just uh different things help the brain in different ways. >> Yeah. And it's very powerful. >> Mhm. >> Let's go to the word trauma for a second. >> Yeah. >> It's overused obviously. >> Yeah. >> We could call it wounds or whatever. >> You know, I think people know more the idea of trauma or wounds interchangeably. I'm not trying to focus on the word trauma, >> but by the what what's called in the therapy world is big tea traumas. You get into a car accident, sexual abuse, >> things that happen are big events and and um >> people understand that. People have a harder time understanding that there's an existence of another type of wound trauma. Yeah. >> That is >> tiny events that seem insignificant >> added up. And I want you to explain that to people a little bit. >> Yes. >> And what that means, you could have somebody who's in front of you who's in a full panic mode, >> but no one event happened, right? Am I correct? >> Right. Yeah. It seemed like, yeah, where's it coming from? And >> where's it coming from? Where's it coming from? >> Right. Or why you always anxious or most of the time why you know, right? >> Trauma. You have no trauma. >> Right. >> So, what does that mean that tiny events added up? Can What does that mean? >> Yeah, it's a good question. And my clients ask the same or maybe they don't ask the question, but maybe they're trying to understand like why did how did I become the way I became or why did I be like why do I do what I do why do I feel what I feel I didn't have my parents were pretty good you know they're pretty loving I got the basic needs met and and really met you know uh food shelter schools vacations >> right >> things were pretty bad life >> pretty normal pretty good okay my father was this my mother was that okay so that's like everybody else you know we have uh >> non-perfect parents just like I am you know I'm not a perfect parent and and right >> um I I would explain it like this with this kind of metaphor. Maybe this could be helpful that um a single tea trauma or like a single event like uh like a sexual abuse. Well, that could be ongoing also, but let's say let's say it's it happened at a certain age one time. >> Um that would be like a a real a cut like a real big cut on the arm. It's like wow that that's you know that's impactful >> and that's bleeding and that's we need to take care of that and that's that's a trauma. whereas you have like many cuts, small cuts over and over. You're just cutting over and over in maybe in the same spot, maybe in a different area. Um and and it hurts, but they're not they're not too big. You know, it could be like a criticism by one of the parents, but it's a it's they're critical, you know, over 10 years, >> right? >> You know, it's like this this expression of death by many cuts. >> I think it's right. I think it's I think that's the expression, right? You're saying you had constant criticism for 10 years. >> Constant enough. >> It doesn't have to be every day even. >> Right. >> Or a general dissatisfaction with the child or >> Right. Right. Or fear of one of the parents or we don't talk about emotions. That was it could be like an implicit me message or explicit message. Right. Some people say don't cry, don't cry. That could be a very explicit message and so you can invalidate emotions through that. >> Some kids will be okay with that and some kids won't. >> Right. Can you tell some more examples of of like small events that happened to people's lives and really affected them? >> Yeah, I would say let's say there's uh one of the parents is not so well either physically or emotionally. And so it could be either parent. And so sometimes they're present and they're available and they're, you know, they're hanging out with their kids and they're doing things with their kids or they're doing homework or they're paying attention and for like two weeks out of every month and a half or whatever they're just they're in bed or they're angry or they're irritated. >> Right. >> Right. And so I think irritated will relate to more people because I think most people in the from community wouldn't lie not it's people who end up in bed but most people would stay functional just get very angry >> just mask it that way >> in our community more like that. >> It's not uncommon. It's really not uncommon. >> Not at all. >> Um or just emotionally unavailable parents very unintentionally not emotionally available. they don't have the capacity or the skills or the emotional intelligence to attune to this particular kid who might have needed something different than another kid. >> Right? So, it's we try we talk about it as good enough parenting, right? It's not going to be perfect parenting, but sometimes it's not good enough parenting for that child, >> right? For another child, it was like it was just it was totally it was fine. >> Yeah, they looked my siblings. Great. We're fine, right? Yeah. >> Like what what's wrong with me? And it's not that what's wrong with you. It's that you needed something different than your parents didn't know how to give it to you. It's like let's say you go to one parent and you really need someone to validate you and they give you advice is it'll be okay don't worry it'll be fine which is very loving and they hug you and kiss you but what you really needed was like yeah I understand I get it I understand why you're upset >> and it could be just that but over 101 15 years it has an impact for that child >> right and the person I guess doesn't have space for their emotions that's what you're saying the impact could be >> yeah yeah and we end up you know in psychonamic terms it's the internalized object we we internalize ize our parents' messages, right? Unintentional messages that uh you know, your your feelings don't really matter and you should just move on. You should suck it up. You should uh not really talk about them. They're not so important. They get in the way, >> right? >> Right. >> Let's say someone is unsuccessful at school. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's a be one. >> Yeah. Very much so. >> Yeah. Very much so. Learning disabilities, right? They're getting a constant message of >> constant ADHD, learning disabilities, both of them. But the constant me me message me message me message me message me message me message me is you're not good enough you should try harder >> wow >> or you have the potential you're so smart but you know you fall short >> what is that duta person >> you know it depends who it always depends um and depends how it's what's done at home with that >> right >> you know are they getting the same messages school and home in a negative way negative feedback all the time do sit down do your homework why can't you do this and how are the parents responding to it and how are they navigating that right and what are doing to help them and support the child if hopefully they, you know, they know what to do. You know, I think nowadays it's different because there's much more information out there and more knowledgeable >> and it's less stigma and all those things. So, I think it's different than 10, 15, 20 years ago. Very different. >> Probably a lot of adults today would have that feeling of I was looked down in school all the way through, >> right? >> And that builds an adult who has what type of self-image? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Not a not a great one. It could it could impact them generally or it could just kind of stay localized. What I mean localized is let's say an example would be I'm just thinking of um something relevant. Oh, so the person might have self-esteem outside of let's say they're they want to go into their own career. They're trying to find their career like they don't know what to do exactly but they're afraid of learning something new. >> Wow. >> Right. So they could be have confidence in sports, some confidence with with their relationships, they were successful, they had peers, they grew up, >> they had close friends or they got along, they weren't bullied, you know, all those things. So they're confident in those areas, but when it comes to learning something new, >> there's a wound there. >> Yeah. There's a real lack of uh confidence and a learned helplessness like I don't know if I can. I I'm just going to fail. Not good enough. >> I'm not good. I'm not smart enough. I'm not capable enough. I might be smart, but I don't know how to focus so well. I never learned that skill. I was always told that uh you know >> you should work harder >> should work harder >> right and that could apply a guy's trying to open a garamaro when he's older and they got that message >> same thing a guy apply it to um relationships also you mentioned the guy didn't get bullied the guy did get bullied >> correct >> that have that message that he can't build relationships >> that's right or I'm not wanted I'm not liked I'm not valued I don't matter I don't say anything interesting you know I'm not interesting to people >> and you go to the guy and say what event happened >> well this guy said this comment to me who cares that's a stupid comment No, but it's a million of those, >> right? It's a lot of those. Yeah. >> It's not just one or two. People don't really get impacted for for 20, 30 years because >> there's one or two comments. >> Quite rare. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't have to be a comment. It could just be the expression. >> It could be Yeah. Or it could be the experience of being excluded. >> Excluded. >> Right. >> Right. That's a powerful one. Abandoned, excluded. >> Those are very powerful words that people really get affected by. >> It's like what's not there, right? It's like the lack of. So, nobody's really engaging you and bring you into the into into the peer group or whatever it is. And uh it's the lack lack of >> the lack of that could be >> nobody's paying attention to me, >> right? >> Nobody cares about me. I guess I'm a loser. I guess, you know, I'm not liked. I'm not interesting. I'm not cool. It could be anything. And these aren't necessarily traumas. These could be negative experiences over time. like what is how do you define a trauma and it's it's a >> a wound. Yeah, it's a wound and for some people that wound will impact them for a very long time and for others >> the idea of that we people like to use the word trauma is the idea of that >> it affected my nervous system and it the and that part is true that that wound is affecting your nervous system till today and your body is reacting to something that doesn't exist because of a bunch of small events >> right >> and that's correct >> I I I'm going to add something on to that I think originally it was called actually developmental trauma um and it was attachment trauma. Developmental trauma developmental trauma is very it's a clear you know it's self understood that over your developmental years from zero to let's say I know they say five but even later 0 to 10 let's say those are core years and things are very much entrenched right in the brain in the nervous system over many years and so developmentally over their developmental years it's it stays kind of stuck in that state often >> wow >> right so you might have a relationship that uh you feel really impacted by like oh why why am I being rejected why am I being criticized and the past kind of activ is activated in the present >> right so you feel like it's happening now and this person is doing it to me >> when really it's a it's an old template being imposed >> on a new situation >> on a new situation that's that feel the brain says oh this is similar this is this is similar >> so let's imagine we have you have a husband and wife sitting next to each other each with their own past. >> Yep. >> And what happens when they have an argument? Now, >> it's a very good question. So, everybody has a past, right? >> Right. >> So, they bring in their old family of origin stuff and their beliefs about themselves, their beliefs about how others should be, how their partner should be and their needs and everything comes to the force. When you talk about communication, like everybody comes in and they have communic Well, most people have communication plum problems. But what does that mean, >> right? What does communication what are the underpinnings of communication? There's emotion, there's beliefs, there's uh beliefs about self, expectations, there's a it's loaded. >> Yeah. >> Right. So, you have to unpack that to to understand what's the >> So, they could be having an argument in the moment and they could be re thinking that the other spouse is saying something that they're completely that they're thinking that they mean something that they completely don't mean. >> That's right. >> Right. >> Yeah. Either their interpretations because their their lens or their glasses that they have are is all fil a lot of it filtered through that. So they're arguing with their friend who rejected them in school instead of arguing with their spouse right now, >> right? >> So each of them are arguing with a past person, right? >> And they're getting angry but not at each other but at imagined versions of each other, >> right, >> from the past, >> right? Because the interpretation is through that lens. Not all the time, of course, is you know, right? >> It's always on a continuum and but uh sometimes >> that would be a disaster. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it is I think a lot of it the the things that I work with with couples is that you know >> realizing >> is that realizing is this yours or your partners who who what are you resp what's your responsibility here in the relationship >> right is your partner insulting you or are you reading it as an insult because something happened in the past >> that's right yeah so a lot of times if you have famine of origin wounds attachment wounds you're going to personalize a lot of things that aren't really personal they're more situational >> and they're just relational and that's just the nature of relationships. Wow. >> So these small little events in life shape people's lives so much. Shapes our relationships >> very deeply. Marriages >> very much so. >> Yeah. A lot of marriage problems. >> And I guess what's the first step for a couple? >> I guess the education of it is already helpful. But what is the first step for a couple who finds themselves getting into arguments? I like somebody told me Gabbor mate said that how big is a everybody says I'm getting triggered. Trigger is a very big word. >> That's the same thing as trauma. >> Yeah. Very big word today. So he said on a gun did you hear this ever? >> Maybe. I don't know. >> He said on a gun how big is the trigger? >> Right. >> Tiny little button. >> Tiny. >> Yeah. But how big is the what is most of it? Most of it's the gun. >> Right. >> So he said people think like I get triggered by this. You get triggered by that. The trigger is tiny. It's very easy to flick the trigger. Correct. >> What the guy is triggering is not he's not causing it. You have this full gun of wounds inside of you and of opinions and way you look at the world, your glassy way you look at the world from your experiences. >> That's your full gun. He just touches the trigger, but it's your gun that's messing with you. So right, >> either you can get upset that he's pushing your little trigger or you can work on your gun, right? >> And and work on what's going on inside of you >> and your reactions to things that are just pushing a tiny trigger. They're not such a big deal, >> but you have this loaded gun ready to go to shoot the second somebody touches it. >> That's a very good metaphor. >> Yeah, it's a very cool one. >> The trigger is often the situation is often similar enough and it could be such a subtle similarity or it feels similar, >> right? And the brain is wired to protect in emotionally, psychologically, physically. And so it's going to be very very quick with that that sensing of of uh similarity. And so it's going to go into protective reactive mode and reactive protective mode. >> Therapy is not affordable. >> Yeah. For a lot for a lot of people. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> First of all, what's your reaction to that? >> It's true. >> Yeah. >> It's true. It's not a for some it is. For let's say, you know, 30%. I don't know if there's a number out there, but uh >> but for the majority, it's it's hard, especially weekly. you know, once a month, >> right? But you can't do it once a month is not great. >> Not really. If you want to work on something consistently, you need consistency, >> right? >> So, >> see, people suffering. >> Yeah. >> Alone. They want therapy. They can't afford it. They're like, "This makes no sense. I'm not draining >> $1,000 a month or whatever it is, or maybe even more today." >> This I have thoughts about I know the solution, but I have some thoughts about it. You know, people spend a lot of money on a lot of different things at different times or consistently. You know, it depends what what's going on in their life. And I see it as like this. If you really need it, then you'll do it. You'll find the money. Whether it's community support, whether it's friends, parents, you know, depends. But if you really want to find the money, for the most part, again, I'm I'm speaking generally, there always exceptions to the rule. You need money for something. >> You need a car, you buy a car. >> I see in my own I see in my own life, okay, so you pay things off or you ask for a reduction if that's possible or reduced fee and sometimes you can get it, sometimes you can't. Depends who. Um but I if you really need it, you'll do it. Again, it's a little bit different because if you need to consistently for a year, that's a lot of money. Most things we don't do consistently for a year unless it's like basic necessities, >> right? >> Right. food and you keep on have to you have to go shopping and clothes and and paying the water bill and electricity bill and mortgage, you know, it's it's really not the same. But, uh, at the same time, a lot of people can't afford it. And that's, uh, it's not a judgment. I I I get it. >> Yeah. >> I have, uh, you know, lived experience of living in Toronto and and and paying bills, right? It's really difficult and it's a struggle and it's it's a stress. Um, but there is community support. um you know but but but people who in Toronto the therapists I also have to make money you know it's really in order to live I was very reluctant to raise my fees and I've been told you know what are you doing why are you just charging so little and uh because of that you charging now >> I charge 250 an hour >> 250 an hour >> so it went up yeah I used to charge two two for 250 an hour >> right >> um >> and the the ones in the states I hear are charging 300 an hour America >> three and up >> Toronto is still a little lower than states still. Yeah, it is. But it's uh and so Canadian almost. >> Yeah. Yeah. Could be more. Hence who you go to in in New York or New Jersey or whatever it is. >> But I recognize it's a lot and people can't afford it and it's unfortunate, but I'm balancing my what uh how fancy of a house do you live in? You must be really loaded. >> People think people think that therapists they're charging 250 an hour. They must be loaded. >> I know it's not. It's such a myth, right? You know, it's middle class poverty. >> Middle class poverty. >> Right. You could be making on the on the books it looks great and in reality it you're paying 30,000 for tuition for some for a kid in the states. >> Yeah. >> Right. Or 230 thou you know I have three boys so >> you know taxes and it's gone. It's really it's really you know I wish if I was making money charging 200 I wouldn't raise it to 250. >> Right. you're able to >> I wouldn't because I know it's an expense and I I I understand that and I'm sensitive to that >> and I'm trying to balance what I need and my what my family needs with with people who I see. >> You know, I want it to be affordable. >> Yeah. >> Like I want people to get the help, but that's that's kind of the balance. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> if you can give one message to our community, >> shout it from the rooftops. everybody who hears it takes it in about mental health. What would you say? >> I think um if you're struggling with something, you're normal because if you're struggling with something, then someone else is probably struggling with that same issue or similar issue. And we all struggle in some way. Even though on the outside with social media and other, you know, our own what our own brains do to ourselves and comparisons, we get lost in that. I would say that's the message. You're not the only guy in struggling, >> right? That's right. And when you start to talk to people, you know, if you speak to a friend, it's like, you know, you try you try it out, you take a risk, and you realize like, oh, you're dealing with that, too, or you're also struggling. I didn't know you struggle with that. And there's I think that's uh I think that decreases the isolation and and the negative feelings that we have of ourselves sometimes. >> Yeah. I think a lot of people don't take risks. I mean there's a lot of there's concern you know if things are going to get out if it's confidential and people you live in a small community even though it's quite large but it's small you know there not many degrees of separation and and so there's a concern around that too which is unfortunate but >> I think uh if we take the chance and risk >> have vulnerable conversations >> have vulnerable conversations with people that can maybe hold space or you realize oh wow they this is really a good person to talk to. Wow, that could bring a lot of really decreases. Yeah, healing decreases isolation. Um, they might share, relationship deepens. It's a given. >> Thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. Really appreciate it.