Why We Beat Ourselves Up | Worry, Anxiety, and What Helps with Dr. Shlomo Radcliffe

Who's your biggest critic in the world? >> It's yourself. >> Myself. >> Yeah. I could struggled with very severe anxiety in my life at times. I remember reading about about this in books gave me an enormous sense of relief. Enormous sense of relief. Like it's like oh like this is a thing. This is a thing that people struggle with. It's like that that because you're right because it can feel incredibly isolating. Yeah. >> Like don't think of a pink elephant, >> right? >> What are you going to think about a pink elephant? Beyond Therapy, bringing you emotional well-being. We are here in the beautiful new offices of Radcliffe Psychotherapy Clinic and we have Schlommo Radcliffe. Thank you so much for coming on. My pleasure. Thanks for having me. I was talking to a friend the other day and he was telling me he would love to hear more about self-compassion and particularly people's like to say that who's their biggest critic and their biggest critic is often themselves. And how do we go about bringing to ourselves some more self-compassion, some more caring to ourselves? We beat ourselves up. How do we try to do that? I think the the first place to start is to start by identifying what's wrong with self-criticism. Because for most people, they're self-critical because they feel that it works. That when they mess up, when they do something wrong, if they're self-critical, if they beat themselves up, if they um recognize, you know, how bad they are in a certain way, then they'll be able to fix the problem. If people feel that self-criticism work works, there's going to be very little motivation to try to change that and try to bring something like self-compassion into the picture. So the first step in moving towards self-compassion is to try to undermine um the workability of self-criticism. >> Right? It just doesn't work. >> It doesn't work. Doesn't work. We feel like it's a logical thing to do, >> but it doesn't work. >> Right? The reason why I criticize myself is because if I criticize myself, I'll get results, >> right? >> And I don't get results, >> right? We think it's an effective motivator. Usually for most people, people find that most of the time they will feel less motivated. They'll feel sometimes more depressed, more they'll get more into a spiral of rumination and just thinking badly about themselves. Um, sometimes people will find that self-criticism can help a little bit. It can help to inspire some amount of change, but it's often less effective than something than approach like self-compassion. So even when self-criticism is effective, it's still not as effective as self-compassion for for helping people to move to real change, >> right? And self-compassion has this like uh >> it doesn't it's >> hippie- dippy sort of vibe. Yes. For most most people feel that way. >> Yeah. >> Um so I do actually try to avoid using the word self-compassion when I'm speaking to my clients most of the time because a lot of people have that reaction. They feel like, you know, that sounds very new age. It sounds really really nice for some someone else. But like I'm a real person. I don't need to, you know, I don't need to spend my time taking a nice bubble bath and being all compassionate to myself. >> People can understand self-compassion best when they consider how they would relate to someone else, when someone else is going through a difficult time. So, I don't know about you, but most of the time when when someone I know, someone I love, uh, you know, a friend or or one of my kids, um, is going through a difficult time, >> I don't usually try to start by trying to point out all their different flaws, all the ways that they've messed up. I try to give them some encouragement. I try to validate that, yes, this is a really hard moment. I try to help them um, feel a bit better because I care about what's going on for them. I'm not trying to let them off the hook and say that they can do make no mistakes. They're not going to do anything wrong. But we can we can very easily when we think of someone else come up with a a a pretty reasonable compassionate approach um towards someone else. Why can't we bring that same sort of compassion towards ourselves? Um it it's it's the natural response when someone else is going through pain >> and it helps them. And it can also really help us when we're going through pain, when we're having a hard time or when we're making mistakes, right? I look at it as, okay, I'm being a weak person. I'm letting go. I'm going the easy way out, >> right? >> You know, instead of putting in the work, >> I don't want to just go and be self-compassionate to myself and then not get anything done in life. Be one of those people >> who just don't do anything with their life. >> Right? So, the question is, does self-compassion actually help someone move forward? Um, so when I'm working with my clients on self-compassion, I often share um a a metaphor. The metaphor goes like this. Um, imagine you're an 8-year-old kid and you're playing baseball and you step up to the plate and you swing. Strike one, swing again, strike two, and third time, strike three, you're out. You're feeling dejected. You're feeling disappointed. You feel like you let down your whole team. And with those feelings in mind, you start heading back towards the dugout. You're thinking to yourself that you're not very good at baseball, >> right? >> And then in this example here, you're greeted by what we'll call coach one. Coach one greets you and he's like, we'll say, you know, say your name is. Um, so he's like, Si, I can't believe you. You really messed up. The whole team was counting on you. You're terrible. You're terrible at baseball. Why do you even come? Why do you even show up? >> Right. >> Okay. So coach one greets you in that way. First question is how would you feel? >> Right? >> Would you feel better or would you feel worse? >> I feel worse. >> Feel worse. >> Some people would argue that maybe I'll try harder next time. >> So then that goes to the second question. So the second question is is when you get up to the plate next time, are you going to be more or less likely to hit the ball? So, I would say the vast majority of the people that I speak to, um, you know, probably as high as like 99%, um, will say that they're going to be less likely to hit the ball next time. >> I have had one or two people who have said that they'd be more likely, >> which often points to, you know, a fairly high level of self-criticism in someone's life that they're used to that as an effective motivator. Um, but they but they'll acknowledge that they would feel worse. And most people would say that you'd be less likely to hit the ball at that point because you're feeling you're feeling like you're you're worthless. You feel like you don't have any skills. >> No one's be standing behind you, >> right? You have no confidence. You have no >> chips in your bank. >> Exactly. Right. Yeah. So, no chips in your bank. Go to the second example here. So, you imagine the same things. Same thing happens. You step up to the plate. Strike one, strike two, strike three, you're out. You feel like you let you feel feel like you let down your whole team. you feel like you're a terrible terrible baseball player and you um head back to the dugout and in this example you're greeted by coach two. Coach two looks at you and it's like hard time out there, eh? I guess he's Canadian. Um and and he he says, "Listen, uh listen, it wasn't the best swing. I see there's room for improvement. You're holding your elbow a little bit high. There's there's work that can be done, but good job going out there and trying. Why don't you and I practice over the next inning and next time you get out there, you'll do your best to give it your best shot. Um, go back to the same questions. How would you feel? Would you feel better? Would you feel worse? >> Right. I would definitely feel better. >> And then the next question, because this is a critical question for most people, not just whether I'm going to feel good or not. The question is, what's going to help me change? >> Yeah. >> And so with this example over here, do you feel like you'd be more or less likely to hit when you step to the plate next? right? I probably won't have the strength to and the confidence to go and do it next time. So, I probably would fail. >> So, most people would say that. Most people would say that I would feel more able to move forward. I'd feel like my coach has my back. I'd feel more uh more positive about it. >> Now, I think this is an important point. I I sometimes like to add a a third coach just to really highlight what self-compassion is and what it's not because I think people get really confused about self-compassion. Um, let's say you have the same exact situation, but here coach three, coach three greets you. So, you you just messed up, but you just struck out. Coach three greets you. He's like, you're amazing. That was great. Everyone clap for SIV. Oh, okay. It's And then I'm going to give you at the end of the game, I'm going to give you u MVP award. Yeah. Um, so coach three is just going to be unconditional positive, happiness, cheerful, and you can do no wrong. >> Yeah. >> Coach two doesn't do that. Coach two starts by acknowledging what's actually going on. Tough time out there. Wasn't your best swing. I see room for improvement. Coach two is still holding you accountable, >> but coach two is doing that in a much more productive way than coach one. >> Right >> now, the critical question, um, you know, I ask my clients this and and and people listening can also think about this as well, is when you're having a hard time, who shows up for you? Coach one or coach two, >> right? >> And for many people that I speak to, coach one has a much stronger voice. >> Yeah. >> Coach one is the voice that you hear. >> Most people their inner critic is that like we said earlier, >> who's your biggest critic in the world? >> It's yourself. >> Myself. >> Yeah, >> I could say that. You know, >> we experience that. And I think it's also very powerful how you put coach three in there because that that calms people down who are like self-compassion this ridiculous compassion. So they're like that's crazy. No, it's not crazy. You're not doing coach three. You're not just saying everything is fine. You're perfect. There's no issues. There is issues. Yeah. >> But >> but you can be an encouraging and a compassionate way and point out the good things that they did. And >> right >> has this nikuda that basically that if you want to improve on something >> then you have to >> you have to see the good things that you're doing right >> if you don't see the good things that you're doing you won't improve >> then your self-esteem is is is shattered and right >> it doesn't feel like you can really change >> right >> um but when you can recognize the good things that you are doing the good the good parts within you that gives you more of um more motivation to to build on that to move forward with that >> gives you the courage to >> Yeah. >> to continue going and continue fighting and >> become greater. >> Yeah. >> It's the opposite of what we naturally do. >> Yeah. Naturally. Um Yeah. And it is interesting that it becomes a natural way of responding for a lot of people. Um sometimes people just grow up in situations where they just hear a lot of self-criticism. Um, so sometimes that's an influence, but also it just seems to be like a a common a common way of thinking that it's um >> that you messed up. You should >> hold yourself accountable. >> Yeah. >> And 100% you should. >> Yeah. >> But it doesn't have to be yourself accountable and be abusive towards yourself. Like both the two things don't have to necessarily go together. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It's a powerful idea. >> Yeah. >> So I know you're very passionate about act therapy. Yeah, ACT therapy is acceptance of commitment therapy. I personally got introduced to it when I was I don't know probably around 18 19 years old. I read um Russ Harris's book, The Happiness Trap. >> I highly recommend that book. >> Yeah. >> And it's a great book. >> It brought me a certain level of acceptance in my life, certain space for my emotions, which we'll hear more about. Yeah. >> But um I wanted to hear what drew you to act. I got on to act when I was doing my practicum. So, as a therapist, you have this period of of training after you do uh your foundational training. You're doing practical training practicing in a clinic. I was practicing in a clinic >> as I have had the honor of doing here. >> Yes, indeed. I didn't really have a strong foundation any specific theoretical approach. Um I had had at that point in my life, I had had a very strong mindfulness uh practice. So mindfulness as in mindfulness meditation, I'd gotten into that um in my late teens. Uh something that helped me deal with my own my own things, my own issues with anxiety uh in particular. And so um I was looking for an approach that could help me bring mindfulness into the therapy room. >> It's interesting. We had a sit on. Yeah. >> And he spoke a lot about breathing exercises and how that helps him >> personally. um what part of mindfulness and and those type of things that helped you a lot in your teenage years and right and what did it what did it do for you? >> So I found learning breathing I found learning meditation it helped u me with physical tension I was carrying it helped me um get better at recognizing my mind and how my mind would uh create worries and spiral with different worries. Um, so it helped me a lot just in terms of giving me like a a a practice or everyday practice I could do that um was just something that would be very grounding, stabilizing, and something that could help clear my mind at at different points. Meditation is not for everyone. And and that's okay. Meditation is not for everyone. I think for people that meditation is for, you can get a lot out of it. It could be really beneficial to you, >> but it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea. And it doesn't have to be everyone's cup of tea. So I didn't want to make my whole foundational therapy practice about teaching people meditation specifically, >> right? >> But I I really liked the ideas that I gotten from my >> for years. My meditation it still does drives me crazy. >> Yes. So at this point happens to be at this point I don't actually have a regular meditation practice for various reasons. Um, but I I felt that I what I had gotten most out of out of mindfulness was not simply just, you know, meditating, sitting, okay, this is peaceful. This 10 minutes now is wonderful, but you know, who knows what the rest of my day is going to be like. >> Um, but I had gotten specific ideas, specific uh knowledge in how to relate to my mind, for example, or how to notice feelings in my body in a certain way that was just really, really helpful. I'll give you an example like um sometimes like sometimes you could you could have this uh you could have feelings that are that are really getting big in your body. You can have uh you can be feeling strong anxiety, strong anger. Um but you know there's a there's a difference between thinking or feeling um like I'm anxious and overwhelmed and noticing that you're having an experience of anxiety showing up in your body. And that might be you're noticing your heart is beating faster. >> Right? >> One is a much smaller experience whereas one is much bigger, much more global and much more overwhelming. So ideas like that are ideas that I picked up in the course of mindfulness or meditation practice because I listen to various meditations and we listen to meditations >> but to separate yourself more from >> Yeah. What the the overwhelming thoughts or >> Exactly. Exactly. I actually we're doing a podcast now. I learned I learned mostly my foundational act training was through a podcast podcast. There's a fantastic one. It's called uh act in context and it just gives like a really foundational deep dive in what act is. The podcast is totally appropriate for anyone not just not just therapists. It's like a really really good podcast um act in context. So I listened to that and I just I it just really spoke to me. you really in your life were able to take mindfulness and and take all these things to help you just move away get separate a little bit from the I guess the storm inside I guess that's a good way of putting it >> right and you mentioned stepping aside from that storm inside your body >> you mentioned that a few times >> yeah so that would be an example or my I I really struggled a lot um especially when I was younger with repetitive thoughts so just getting stuck in different thoughts um not being able to get out of different mind traps like having a thought and thinking about something. I don't want to be thinking about it. Of course, the more you don't want to think about something, the more you are going to think about it. >> People are stuck with a thought. Yes. >> And they and they don't want to think it. Then they just they get and they're like, "No, don't think that." You get stuck thinking about the biggest problem. Don't think of a pink elephant, >> right? >> What are you going to think about a pink elephant? >> So, so how do I So, I'm having repetitive thoughts. So, how do I get out of that cycle? >> Yeah. So, it's more complex than a single answer, but um it's it's helpful to start by by noticing and labeling labeling the thought. When you label a thought, that helps you to get some space from the thought. So, you're not in the thought anymore. It's not you. It's not you. It gives you separation a little bit. So, if I recognize, for example, that I'm having thoughts, let's say I'm worried about something coming up. So, I've noticed I keep worrying about it over and over again. I don't want to worry about it. I can notice. I can just start by noticing. Oh, there's worry. Oh, I'm noticing that worry the worry train has started again >> before I go and and jump on that train. You're saying? >> Yeah. Before I go and jump on that train or I can notice simply that the train has started and when I'm looking at my worries as a separate thing that's not necessarily me. So here I am and I am noticing that I am worrying. That helps me to to not necessarily get looped and and stuck in that train like you're saying, >> right? And not I guess not fight those thoughts, >> not try to push them away. >> Exactly. >> Welcome them in. >> If I if I look at my thoughts like as a worry train, I can practice just noticing that the worry train is here and that the worry train might be moving along soon and it might stay for a little while and it might not. But once I start fighting my thoughts, the worry train has nowhere to go. Like I'm very focused on my worries. So how can it go anywhere? It's stuck there. >> Stuck there. >> The train is stuck. But if you let the train just go, it will come. It will go. You can't control it. >> Yeah. >> Can't control these thoughts coming in and out of your head. And some are pleasant, some are unpleasant. >> Yeah. >> But you can just let them flow and you won't be stuck with them. >> Correct. It reflects common challenges that everyone gets into. Having tricky brains, >> um, navigating, you know, tricky lives. There's common challenges that we're likely to get into. And so being able to identify those challenges um and being able to apply these different sets of ideas to these challenges, ideas such as acceptance, ideas such as diffusion, which is um this idea of getting space from your thoughts, um ideas such as um present moment attention, you know, directing your attention to the present moment. Um those ideas which are all part of ACT are have been really really helpful to me and to my clients, >> right? It's powerful and at the same time acceptance is a really really hard thing to do. >> Yes. >> And as act kinds of sells it is if you don't accept it's gonna be much worse. Like the the the cost of not accepting it is very high. You're just going to fight with it and it's not worth it. You might as well accept it and have a more a much more beautiful life and a more valued focused life. >> Acceptance doesn't mean that oh well my life sucks and that's how it's going to be. acceptance in act applies more specifically to internal experiences. >> Yeah. >> So internal experiences um if I'm experiencing anxiety, bringing acceptance to that is really useful. >> If I'm experiencing anger, the feeling of anger, bringing acceptance to the feeling is useful, >> right? >> Um the reason I do that is like you're like you're saying, it's functional. It's just what works better. If I can accept that >> um those feelings will pass through my body, pass through my brain much more quickly, much more uh effectively. >> But it doesn't mean that we have to accept every single situation that's going on. Um if I'm having financial anxiety, for example, I can accept that my mind is worried and accept that my body is getting tense, >> right? Try to get space from that and not fight it and let that train go through. But 100% it would make sense for me to try to take steps to improve my life to the extent that that's possible. >> So it's all about the internal experiences that we're accepting. And that acceptance is more >> about um making space for the feelings to be there, >> right? >> Um because when we're fighting our feelings, when we're getting when we don't want to experience a feeling, whether it's anxiety, >> right? Um whether it's it's anger, whether whatever the feeling is. >> Um we're we're more like we're gonna have that feeling more. >> Yeah. >> If we what we what we what we resist persists, >> stall the train, it's going to be stuck there. Exactly. >> You let it go past. >> Exactly. >> The train will just keep going. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. And you mentioned anger. Anger is one of those things that I think everybody struggles with on some on on a spectrum of some sort. Like you know, so you come home from work today and you're really frustrated because of this podcast >> could be >> and your wife your kids are egging you on and whatever it's this is not done has some mess and you want to just yell you know what are some essential tools and things that you use that people can use to when that hits you >> or maybe before that hits you guess part of the question. >> Well I I think actually that's that's probably the main thing. Um, so I do work with anger a lot. And when it comes to anger, you have the the most ability to impact it if you deal with the the buildup of anger. So I like to say sometimes people people think about anger as like they go from zero to 100 that they're calm and then they snap. They lose. >> But it does feel like that in that moment. It feels like that. >> In that moment when you're just like you had enough and you lose control. >> Yeah. >> And then you say some stupid things that you wish you didn't say after. >> Exactly. Exactly. So it just you snap. But um I I think back I I had a client many years ago. Um he he he would kept saying that his anger was zero to 100. And he kept telling me okay it's zero to 100. And you know of course I'm changing details here um for confidentiality. In the same vein that he was telling me that his anger is 0 to 100. He had I was I remember like noticing in the session he had told me okay and this week uh he had gotten into a car accident and this week um his relationship was falling apart and this week um his his grandfather had passed away and and there were like so many different things that had happened and I'm looking at him like zero to 100 like you've got so much going on right it's not zero to 100 you're you're you're at an 80 all the time so with all this with this 80 going on. The fact that your coworker said this and you snapped, >> that's not zero to 100. >> Your emotions are ready. >> Exactly. >> You're not dealing with your mental health. >> Exactly. >> So, general dealing with mental health will help anger basically. >> Well, yes. But the my point here is that when you're working on anger, looking at that zero to 100 piece is the most important part because um it doesn't start at the moment that your kids are misbehaving or that your wife says something you don't like or that your parent you know, it doesn't start at that moment. It it starts um usually earlier. There's a there's a process that's building up. That process can be um that 0 to 100, that 0 to 80. That buildup can be things such as stress and anxiety. That can be things such as not getting enough sleep. That could be things such as um having a hard day. Noticing that buildup is so important because you can you can impact anger so much more effectively when you deal with it at that level 40, level 60. >> When you get to those higher levels, it's much harder to manage anger. Not that it's impossible, but if you know the triggers and if you know that you're if you know that you're already carrying tension, >> right? >> So, >> let's say I felt overwhelmed and stressed from this podcast um and then I'm going home tonight. I would do well to try to notice that tension building up for me and try to do something, you know, in in my office before I head home, >> right? To calm yourself down, >> to calm myself down >> and to ease that. >> And sometimes it's just like a very practical thing. Like this is a a silly example, I guess, but I remember I had had one client who it it sounds silly, but like he was working really long day and he'd come home. Just eating something before he came home was just really really helpful >> to just like just regulating. Yeah, just regul regulating like um you know for him I guess regul regulating blood sugar >> definitely you know hunger would be one of those things that can contribute to that buildup of stress and tension. >> Um but the point is the point I guess of that example is more that uh for him noticing that he was stressed noticing that he needed to take care of himself in that moment, >> right? um that helped him to then walk through the door in a much more pleasant way and with much more um fuel in his tank to be able to handle the challenges that will come in the evening. >> Right. It's not zero to 100. It's it's a build. There's a buildup there and you have to be aware of that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. You one time told me actually that that when most clients come in with for with anger >> usually working on other things, the anger comes later because it's build up as you're saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We get like we get there eventually. People people will be like, "Oh, wait. I came to talk to you about anger. We're talking about anxiety." And like my my my I'll respond to them like, "This is anger work. It is important with anger to still know how to communicate when you're stressed >> 100%." >> Because the reality of of life is you're not going to always be able to control it. You're you're not always going to be able to get the stress down completely. Um stress will be a factor. uh and and working on it is important, >> but still building specific anger management skills is very important as well. Yeah, >> those are usually things like communication skills. Um >> so knowing how to communicate to someone to express your needs, to express what you want, but to do so in a way that's going to be respectful, in a way that's going to be productive, >> right? Instead of blaming them, ask for your needs for >> instead of blaming them. Or a lot of times when people are communicating when when they're angry, they're not trying they're not really focusing so much on on on how to most effectively get what they want. They're focusing more on how to express what they're feeling. >> Right? >> So you can be very successful in expressing and showing the other person how angry you are, >> right? >> But then you need to ask yourself, is that really what's going to help move things forward for me? >> So anger will get you nowhere. >> Yeah. It doesn't. Communicating will get you somewhere. Yeah, anger might >> in the moment it feels great. But >> yeah, it feels Yeah. >> powerful. >> Exactly. But um communication will help you solve problems. Uh anger doesn't help you solve problems. >> Right. >> Yeah. So I wanted to ask you like this. You you see you see lots of people with mental health challenges, >> right? And there's I mean it's not like lots of people as if it's like other people. which, you know, it's a human condition. >> Um, and and people who are suffering with whatever level they're suffering, it's a there's a loneliness to it. They're stuck inside of themselves. Um, they're fighting battles and they're really working hard in life and it looks like they're to other people that they're doing nothing, >> right? >> And it could be blame on them and they could be looked down upon. >> What would you say to them? What would you say to a person who feels this way? It's in a hard place to be. >> Yeah, I mean it is a hard place to be. I would say for sure to be trying to to get help um that they need when when that's helpful um can be can be important to try to access resources uh such as health self-help books, various like you mentioned the happiness trap by Russ Harris. Um, so books like that can be really helpful and can help people feel um, first of all get more understanding into some of the challenges that they're having and feel less alone, feel as part of um, a collective that's experiencing challenges, >> right? You're saying reading the book makes you realize that you're not the only one struggling with it. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Interesting. Like I remember for myself like with my with some of my own things um like um anxiety which you know I've struggled with very severe anxiety in my life um at times um I remember reading about about this in books gave me an enormous sense of relief enormous sense of relief like it's like oh like this is a thing this is a thing that people struggle with it's like that that because you're right because it can feel incredibly isolating >> but to be able to see um I find like to be able see like a page in front of you and the page is describing your problem or something that's very close to your problem that helps you to feel less alone. >> Yeah. >> Um I think that also connects a little bit to what we were talking about earlier about uh self-compassion. Self-compassion applies very much for these kinds of difficulties. >> Yeah. >> Um feeling alone. >> Yeah. >> Self-compassion is not self-pity. It's not oh wo is me I'm so alone. I am, you know, it it's more like it's it's more recognizing and validating like >> it is really really hard to be experiencing this, >> right? >> It is really really hard to feel like other people are not understanding my problems. >> It is really hard to be going through this. >> Yeah. >> You're not you're not wallowing in self-pity. You're not >> just recognizing what you're going through and recognizing the efforts you're putting forth >> to create a better life for yourself. And then and then like there there is um there's like a a definition of self-compassion that has these three parts. The first part is um I mean the word is mindfulness but it's it's used basically to mean recognizing what's going on. >> Awarefulness. Somebody used >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um to to recognize to be aware of what's happening. Um the second part is common humanity. to recognize that challenges of any kind are things that people experience, >> right? >> Like these these are not new things. These are things that people are experiencing. Um and you're not >> the common humanity part is really powerful. >> It's huge. It's huge. >> It's huge that we're just humans. >> Yeah. >> You know, I think sometimes as Jews, we sometimes we we strive for perfection, which is great, >> right? >> But the the idea of that we are humans is essential. >> We are human. We have challenges. We have flaws. Um, and people struggle. People struggle with lots of things. >> Yeah. >> Um, and then the third part of self-compassion is this self-kindness. So, while all this stuff is going on, while I'm recognizing that this is going on, while I'm recognizing that other people experience these kind of challenges and I'm and um it's normal to have challenges, um what can I do to be a little bit kinder to myself, >> right? >> What can I do to take care of myself while all this is going on? And that's huge for someone struggling when someone someone's feeling alone, someone's feeling like uh no one is recognizing their problems. Well, you can start by recognizing your problems yourself. Recognizing that you are having this challenge and this and this is hard, >> right? Those three things. You have the mindfulness, then you have the common awarefulness, right? And then you have that common humanity. We're all just humans. Yeah. We're all just another human on this world trying to >> figure it out. >> Exactly. They're all in the same same soup. >> Same soup. >> Yeah. We're all just human beings. >> And then three is that is that self-kindness. >> Yeah. >> And those three together really build a really nice self-compassion >> for a lot of people. They can it can help a lot. And for sure combining like like you said, combining that with taking effective actions where possible, seeking help, trying to connect with others, trying to connect with community, >> right? >> Um can also be essential, >> right? Yeah, >> it's so important for people to connect, for everybody to connect as human beings. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So essential. >> Yeah. >> Um I wanted to ask you about another expertise of yours >> and that is ADHD. >> Yeah. >> We have a little bit time to discuss it. >> Catch it in. >> Yeah. >> So ADHD, a lot of people talk about ADHD in schools. >> Yeah. >> And that whole world and that's a very important world. >> Yeah. >> That we could discuss another time. >> Sure. I want to hear about ADHD in adults, how that's affecting adults who've never been diagnosed who who are struggling with ADHD. I want to hear more about that. >> Yeah. So, when it comes to ADHD, there's really lots of misconceptions >> and a lot of times I meet adults who have never been diagnosed with ADHD, even though they have it. There there's different challenges you can have as an adult with ADHD. Some of them are the stereotypical challenges that people are aware of which can include uh impulsive impulsivity, making poor decisions, things like that. But most commonly when I'm working with adults, they're experiencing challenges related to a specific subtype of ADHD called prim called primarily inattentive ADHD. So ADHD can look very different for different people. Um, and with primarily inattentive ADHD, there's very specific problems with procrastinating, with issues getting started on on things, um, challenges with time management, >> right? >> These are which all increases anxiety. Exactly. >> Because your life is spiraling out of control. >> Exactly. So, I actually I see a lot of people, you know, they come to me for help with anxiety and I see that um I mean I can't assess or diagn diagnose ADHD, but I see that, you know, maybe they should get an assessment for ADHD because uh they Yeah, they definitely have anxiety, but if they have unmanaged ADHD that's contributing to this anxiety, then that's really the core thing that we need to address. >> But their life is so disorganized that it's creating anxiety. >> Exactly. >> It's such a mess. >> Yeah. So, people people are struggling with difficulty turning intentions into actions. So, I can intend to do something. I can uh mean to do something, but I simply don't do it or I simply or I do it late or I have poor follow-through. So, for a lot of people with ADHD, that's a a huge part of the struggle, >> right? The poor followrough of I want to do something now getting it done. And that could be extremely frustrating. >> You want to get something done and it's not happening. >> Someone with ADHD, they might want to do do something healthy like work out, sleep, um go to sleep on time, things like that. Those sorts of uh behaviors are often much harder for someone with ADHD. It's harder for them to to do these things to have set up routines, follow these things, which then has a ripple effect on their lives because you know the the less sleep less sleep you're getting. >> Right now I have the diagnosis. Let's say I'm ADHD. Let's say right. >> So now what what does that help me? >> Good question. Um so the diagnosis I think is helpful because first of all it gives you a new way to understand your struggles. And this goes back to the self-compassion piece a little bit. If it gives you another element of understanding yourself and giving you the self the self-compassion uh a bit more effectively um it gives you an that awareness. It also gives you that awareness of if this is a challenge related to ADHD then I can more effectively address and deal with it which is really really important especially in relationships. So for adults with ADHD, relationships are often very much impacted. So um let's say I'm working with a husband with ADHD um and he before an ADHD diagnosis, he has a habit. He has a habit where he he leaves a mess out. He leaves a mess out every time he does something. He leaves some sort of mess on the the kitchen, on the, you know, counters. >> There's a mess everywhere. and his wife talks to him about it and he feels like oh his wife is just you know is just nagging him and just bugging him and he feels the problem is his wife wife has to leave him alone and his wife wants him to be able to deal with the the the mess he's leaving out >> right >> so if I have ADHD but I don't know I have ADHD then I don't really have much of a strategy of of working on the problem but once I understand that ADHD is in the picture >> right >> that gives me a new a more effective way to >> and then I'll deal with time management getting things done, not procrastinating, and maybe working with a coach or therapist or whatever it is. >> And also, for example, like that, it makes it more um it's helpful also for his wife for because uh she can now better understand his problems as being related to ADHD, >> right? >> Rather than being related to him not caring necessarily. >> That's powerful. That one is very powerful, very important that the wife now knows that or the husband now knows. Are you making it the >> I know that because I work with the husband in the situation. So, but this you can have the exact same situation. You could have the wife with ADHD, husband without ADHD, and you could have both people with ADHD, but was, you know, it's very uh equitable in that sense. >> And it's not that they're not caring. They're just this is a struggle for them. >> Yeah. It's not to say someone can't not care that that's possible. >> But I I I really think I go back to in my work a lot like what's most effective. So, I'm not, you know, we can call it ADHD or not. Um the question is if I call it this, does this lead to a more effective result? >> Um and many cases it does, >> right? >> Of course, someone can go too far with that. Someone could say, "Well, I'd love to clean up the dishes. I have ADHD and so I can't help." >> That goes That's a common theme we had in our whole conversation. This tension between acceptance and um >> and and just self-pity and letting go. >> Exactly. That's that's not helpful. That's not effective. Yeah. >> And that would be um you know taking the label of ADHD and doing something very unproductive. Exactly. Abusing it. >> So it'd be more helpful for me to recognize that ADHD is something that impacts my life. And since it impacts my life, here are some strategies that I should use that maybe fall under the ADHD strategy umbrella. And maybe for some people or actually for many people, things like ADHD medication will be really helpful. give a like another tool that will help the person be more consistent, focus better, um, and, uh, deal with some of those ADHD ADHD related challenges. But it all starts with an understanding of what's going on. If I don't know what's going on, >> then you can't deal with it. >> Yeah. So, that's very powerful. So, thank you very, very much for coming on. Do you have a message to the Toronto community about mental health? If you shout it from the rooftops, everybody will take this in. What would it be about mental health? I'd say what we spoke about in the course of the conversation, I would say this idea that it is normal to struggle. It is normal to struggle and it's okay to struggle. When we're able to acknowledge and recognize our struggle and be kind to ourselves in the midst of that struggle, >> we begin to see a way forward. We be we begin to be able to find a path through that struggle. >> Right. Recognizing the struggle is the strength. >> Yes. Right. Perfectly said. Yes. Yes. Yes. 100%. Recognizing that struggle is a strength. Um, and struggling is part of being human. It's part of humanness, right? It's um, >> uh, so our job is not necessarily not to have struggles, but to, um, to work through those struggles and to be kind to ourselves in the midst of those struggles and at the same time work on taking actions to try to improve our lives and the lives of those around us. >> Thank you so so much for coming on. >> Thank you. It >> was really a nice conversation. >> My pleasure. >> I'm sure everybody will gain a lot from it. Hope so.