"It's Not About Getting High" | Addiction Explained with Betzalel Wolff

It's not about getting high. It's about this is the only way that I feel okay. Emotional pain is much worse than physical pain. Nobody does these things because they want to feel amazing. The most common addiction in my practice is sex addiction. Pornography is unfortunately something that is very prevalent. The biggest piece parents to be able to have open communication with their children about these types of sensitive topics that the healthier the relationship with the child is, the less likely to develop an addiction. Put down your phone, look at your child in their eye, and talk to them and see them. And that will go very, very far. Beyond Therapy, bringing you emotional well-being. >> Welcome, Ital Wolf. >> Thank you. >> Thank you so much for coming on. >> My pleasure. >> Sal is um the founder of Toronto Trauma and Addiction Counseling and you've been uh helping people struggling for the past 15 years. >> A while. >> What's your favorite place in the world and why? >> Wow. What is this about? F. I don't like questions that have did the favor the best. >> What's a very like grounding place in the world for you? >> H I like hiking trails. I like serene, quiet, beautiful places. >> Nature. >> Serene, quiet, beautiful places. And what does that do for you? >> It's grounding. >> It's enjoyable. It's a in touch with just beautiful places in the world are a very calming relaxing environment for me. So you deal with addicts and people picture addicts as like crazy people, people who are like lowass people or people people who they don't think they don't associate them with the regular people in our community. And first of all, I think you can confirm that you tell me what who are the addicts you deal with. >> What types of people is any type of person? There's nobody who's um safe from possibly struggling with addiction and most people don't, >> right? But there's nobody out there who addiction can't get to them. So, it's all types of people. I mean, I can tell you I don't deal normally with younger people. So with teenagers is not my typical clientele. Um but once we're in the adult field, it could be anybody from the person who's a, you know, works behind the counter in a in a Starbucks to somebody who's running a fancy company to somebody who's learning in yeshiva, somebody who's the head of the yeshiva. It's it's all >> all parts of the population. There's nobody who can't be affected by addiction. And most people aren't affected by addiction, but there's nobody who can't be >> because I'm this type of person or I have this job or from this family >> or I have this background, therefore I'm safe from addiction. That doesn't exist. Just like any mental health challenge, there's nobody who can't have a certain challenge. >> Yeah. Addiction particularly, I think people look as very other. Unless somebody is dealing with it themselves or with a family member or a close friend, then either they hear things about it or they watched a movie about it and it's often painted as like you described like the the other the you know the old saying that it's the person under the railroad tracks with a brown paper bag >> and that's often the case but uh not necessarily. Those aren't the people who are coming into me. I'll tell you that much. >> Yeah. They can't they can't afford therapy. >> They're not coming here. So, so if that's your only um world into addiction, then yeah, you don't realize that it could be the person who sits next to you or the person who serves you or the person who teaches you, >> right? >> Because we you're right, we have a certain I think it's getting different today. >> Businessman, the rebby, the >> could be anybody. >> Yeah. >> So, um so we have these regular people who are who are struggling with addiction and like what's going on? Are they like they they seem to be like stupid, crazy for destroying their lives for whether it's a substance, whether it's a behavior. We'll get into that later, but they're destroying their lives for something. And they are they stupid, crazy, or is it trauma or pain or what is it that brings them to do such a stupid thing? And people tell them stop and they're like, "Yeah, I should stop." They keep on doing it, >> right? >> There's a lot of judgment on it. Just to add to that for a moment, people tell them stop. They also often tell themselves stop. >> Yeah. >> And they can't or they don't, which is a topic that I assume we'll get to. It's definitely not stupid or crazy. That's not why they're doing it. I mean, there are people who do stupid or crazy things, but typically even people do stupid or crazy things. When you get to a certain level of suffering, you stop, >> right? So when somebody doesn't stop doing something especially if they're getting hurt then we got to believe that the human being is a little bit higher than than that where I just don't realize or I don't care you they're suffering the family around them is suffering and the suffering is ginormous what could be so it's not about stupid or crazy there's there are a few different reasons why people develop addictions you know unlike a u a cake if you don't follow a specific recipe, it's not going to come out with addiction. There's no very there's not a specific recipe. There are a few different factors and the way we >> more like cooking than baking. >> But correct. But but even there, if you do a different recipe, it's going to come out differently. Right. >> Here you need, you know, there's a genetic component, but it doesn't have to be. There's a psychological component, an environmental component. So there's different pieces there, >> but there's no one specific recipe. Typically speaking, and we're talking broadly right now, somebody with an addiction is contrary to public opinion where they're getting high. It's not about getting high. It's about this is the only way that I feel okay. >> Wow. So, basically, this is the only way they could feel okay in this world, >> right? Now, okay. What does that mean okay in this world? But to some degree, which I we'll see if we get to, this is what helps them be okay. It's not I just like the way this feels or like the way this tastes or like the way this what it does for me. There's a pleasure component. If not for the pleasure, then they wouldn't be doing it. Although, as addiction progresses, they'll continue even though there's no more pleasure. But it definitely starts with the pleasure. One of the systems involved in addiction is the reward system, the pleasure system in the brain, >> the dopamine. Um, but it's not about because I want pleasure. So, if we needed just a summary of what it's about without getting to some of the specifics just yet, addiction is when somebody cannot manage life without this escape behavior um drug literally and figuratively to help them really function. >> Wow. >> So, this is >> I should just add because it's an important piece. That being said, addiction does have a horrible impact on the family. And none of this is meant to minimize the impact or tell partners or children, you know, you should just look the other way because your poor spouse or child or father or whoever it is suffering. >> And that's one of the complicated parts of this work. We have to hold both at the same time. >> What I said about the person with the addiction is true >> and they have to be looked at as that as opposed to an evil monster. And at the same time for the family and for them to realize that they are often unintentionally causing lots and lots of harm to their family. >> Yeah. >> And to be able to put that both together is not so simple, but it's critical. >> To understand where the addict is is coming from, understand they're not an evil monster, but they are suffering. And understand that the family is suffering at this. Professor Kea Pearlman said something this week that I thought was powerful. He's his first heroin addict that he dealt with. He asked them, "What um what does the heroin do for you? What would it feel like the first time you tried heroin?" And he the guy said, "It was the first time in my life I ever felt loved." >> Right? Which is, you know, wild but powerful because how could heroin make you feel loved? Normally we assume love means >> by yourself, by people, by God, by something. But that's a good example where one of the explanation, one of the um underpinnings for some of these people is they're not feeling love. And then you have to understand how this behavior does it. But the point is it's filling a basic need. I I tell clients all the time, addiction is not about an extra. It's they're typically missing a basic human need. Nobody does these things because they want to feel amazing. They're missing a basic whether it's connection, love, um power, even in a in a normal way. um just some peace of mind, things that every human being wants and needs, >> right? They're missing a basic human need. >> They're missing a Now, the addiction doesn't really fill that basic unity. In fact, it just makes them even worse. And that's part of the addiction cycle where they're looking for something basic. They're looking for something necessaryish. >> They get it like once or twice >> or they think they're getting it or it feels like they're getting it. It causes more harm. So now let's say if they're not feeling loved and somehow this heroin fellow feels loved. Now when it starts impacting his family, he's not feeling too loved. So it reinforces the I'm really not loved >> and they keep going for that thing that makes them feel loved in whatever way and they're stuck in the cycle. And it's like that with almost all the things that they're looking for. The addiction, it feels like it's giving that to me. Not only doesn't it, it makes things worse. It reinforces that negative belief that I went into addiction with and I'm stuck in this vicious cycle that I can't get out of. >> Wow. What is the most common addiction you deal with? >> The most common addiction in my practice is sex addiction. Um following that is I would say alcoholism, prescription medication and then drugs and gambling at the end. But sex addiction is by far >> the most popular addiction. in my practice and I think in many practices it's not just my >> my experience. >> Do you feel that because of the shame in the from community and the lack of discussion about it, it's a bigger problem in the from community than it is in the general community or just >> I don't think so. I think in the from community it may be >> harder for people to reach out for help because of those reasons. Um, on the other hand, it could be a little easier because they have a more of a a belief system that's that's contrary to what sex addiction is. Although the truth is once a person hits the addictive level, it has nothing to do with the value system. Their lives are falling apart. >> Wow. >> Um, but I I don't think that it's more prevalent in our community than it is in the other communities. It's a a worldwide pandemic. I know that it's a real it's a problem that really exists especially if we understand that included in sex addiction is also pornography. So there's different types of behaviors once we open up the world of pornography. Now is there addiction? Is it just poor behavior? You pornography is unfortunately something that is very prevalent. >> Yeah. >> Especially with the smartphones and the access to what everybody has today. So that's very prevalent. But even that is it at addictive level or is it just poor behavior or problematic behavior. So I I don't want to give a number. I I don't know. I know that it's a number that's that's real, >> right? >> And it's something that has to be understood not just in the world of therapy but abundant to understand it because it is something that does exist in their community. There's no community out there that they or person that there's no way they're dealing with sex addiction. >> So again, most people aren't. But it's a it's a real problem and a real phenomenon. >> You mentioned to me in conversation that you one time went to yeshiva to talk about drugs and alcohol and you brought up pornography and pornography dominated the conversation >> in the world of teenagers and it is rampant >> rampant. Now rampant doesn't mean that everybody in B medicine is doing it but it means there's this I'm comfortable saying even though I haven't done the uh the research I I would be shocked if there is a base medish in the world that doesn't have a handful of people who are dealing with it now >> pornography >> yes >> and depends on what you shivas you know places that are more a little more open and where there's less rules around access and phones then it's much more prevalent places where people don't have that level of access, it's harder to get it. But it's not impossible at all. >> So there's no place where it it doesn't exist. I I I can't imagine. >> Yeah. >> Um but in some places it's something that uh most of the Baham are dealing with. Again, is it the addictive level? Is it a normal tyal level? So we have to be careful with that. We can't slap around the world addiction just because somebody's doing something that we know is not good for them. But pornography is certainly something that is uh quite prevalent and >> even in the world that they like you're saying even in the world that they block the phones and stuff still prevalent just >> there's no block that's perfect and then there's your friend's phone >> and then there's the >> and there's going to Walmart and buying a phone >> there's nothing that will make it impossible >> it doesn't exist it's something that is they call it the AAA engine accessibility anonymity and affordability so today affordability really means free, >> right? >> And accessibility is everywhere. And this was this word was made of years ago. >> Nobody will ever know. Nobody will ever know. And you can't smell it on you. You can't sense that you're high after. >> Yeah. It's it's it's it it's the most widely available drug. >> Wow. >> Maybe coffee, but from the from the real damaging drugs, it's certainly the most easily accessible, widely available drug. And the truth is, take it a step further. You don't even need a phone. person needs their mind, >> right? >> So, as long as they have some images that they either saw or came up with, the bar is in their mind. >> Yeah. >> So, all you need is a working mind, which most people have. >> So, it's a >> pretty the world of fantasy. Yeah. >> Images, fantasy. It's it's it's >> it's a serious problem. There is help. There's moving on from it. Um, but it's certainly a uh I don't remember the specific conversation you're referring to, but it's certainly um it would make a lot of sense that it dominated the discussion. >> Yeah. So, what would you tell parents and educators? They're bringing up teenagers, right? They want to prevent these problems from coming bigger and bigger and developing into addiction, right? A therapist in Toronto told me that pretty much most teens will end up watching porn of some sort um in their teenage years. So even in the whatever in the yeshivish communities, what do we do? What's helpful education for parents, educators, rebum, whatever to help these things not get worse, not get into addiction level. So I think there's a few different pieces. Um there's the practical and then there's more we'll say I don't know fundamental or emotional or psychological. Number one and I think probably the biggest piece is for parents to be able to have open communication with their children about these types of sensitive topics. And if the first time they talk about is when they found that the kid was doing it. Um so >> but I don't want to give my kid ideas. >> Okay. So this is I'm happy to get into this topic if you like. It's a related but separate topic is about talking to your children about sexuality in a way in a way. And it we do need that sensitivity. The point is not just to talk about as if we're talking about you know playing baseball. There is a a level of of sne and sensitivity that we must have. But at the same time, we live in a world where if we don't give it to them, they are getting it from elsewhere and they're getting it a lot earlier than we got it or our parents got it or grandparents got it. So we have to talk to them how to talk to them about it. I mean I have certain ideas how I do I think people need to discuss with their raim so it's something that fits with their lifestyle and that feels kosher and appropriate for them. But we have to be able to talk to the children well before they get into it. >> Well before they get into it. >> Yeah. If if they found it before we spoke to them about it, then they have this message in their mind that either it's I can't talk to my parents about it. Uh my parents don't know about it. As weird as that may sound >> or I'm crazy that I'm doing it. >> There's something wrong with me. I'm dirty. I must be defective because this is they never comes up a lot. >> Very common. I remember quite a few people remembering a specific story, but quite a few people who when they heard unfortunately for me in their adulthood um how normal it was for what they not okay but how normal as opposed to something weird or deviant >> the relief of really >> yeah there's a very big difference between okay people have a hard time saying something's normal doesn't mean it's okay it means that you're not nothing's wrong with you that you're experiencing this correct you desire this and that you want this >> right it mean nor normal means that it's part of normal development that a person has desires interests urges etc and there are many things that are normal but they're not okay to do and we have to talk to a person about it and and help them understand why and and what can they do but so that's the first thing is that there's open discussion about sexuality in general pornography in particular where the children know that this is a safe place that they can talk about and part of that means that they know that if they come and say that they were doing something that they know is a problem, we're not either shutting them down or saying how dear you or I can't believe it because if they're shut down, they're not coming to you, >> right? >> So, there needs to be open communication about this. >> When they come to you, you have to accept it with love, I guess. >> Yeah. I mean, you you need to not be shunning them or shaming them or yelling how how could you or don't talk to me about that or any type of strong reaction, which is normal if a parent hears and and parents have their own stuff coming up and their own histories and their own ideas about things and it's normal to have a a strong reaction. It's your child who you love more than anything in the world, but a parent has to be in a place where they can appreciate that the child's coming to them and then know how to deal with it properly. So there's talking about sexuality in particular, but it's also broader. It's that my child knows that I am a safe place to talk about things in general, right? >> You know, if they tell me that they I don't know, they were playing ball and they smashed the window by mistake and I smacked them across the face, >> they'll never come, >> they're not coming about that either. So So there needs to be a healthy relationship with the children. And part of that besides for they know that you value them and cherish them and adore them um but that they know they could come to you with things. So that's one piece. >> There needs to be protection. There needs if you give your child a smartphone in general, even if it's a a filtered smartphone, very very dangerous. If it's not filtered, that's like giving a four-year-old a car to drive. That's just like plain stupid. >> But giving your child a device is risky. Um, unfiltered access at home, >> a very powerful drug on the device. >> Correct. >> Or your computer at home or whatever. >> Anything flying around your house. Yeah. >> Anything unfiltered, anything in private. So, even if it's filtered, it has to be in a public place because there's no filter that's foolproof. So, you give a child access to something that's not filtered, it is very, very dumb. >> Say that my kid could go to Walmart and buy a device for a few dollars. >> That's true. So we do the best that we can. The point is not to police them and the point is not to be watching them where they go. >> Just not dump the drug in their hands, >> not give it to them. >> Yeah. >> And to just, you know, your point, they go to Walmart, but you're right, they can. So that's part of knowing what's going on with our children and especially when they're younger is doing what you can to know their whereabouts, checking what's going on. Don't be a helicopter parent. We're not saying to go check everything. >> Very hard balance. Someone will listen to this be like, "Oo, I'm going to be a I'm going to know put a tracker on my kid." Yeah. So you mess up your kid a different way by doing that. So you know the point is not not to do that but to know what's going on with your parent. But again goes back to the first thing we said if you have an open relationship with your child where they can talk to you then the hope is that if they do go to Walmart and see something where their friend shows them something they'll come and talk to you about it. So th those are the basic things that need to be. The other piece is that the healthier the relationship with the child is the less likely to develop an addiction. You know, we were talking about earlier about addictions. >> Attachment. >> Exactly. If there's a secure attachment, if a child knows and feels, not just knows. Most children know that they're loved, but if they feel a connection, if they feel important, if they've learned how to regulate themselves and soo themselves in a healthy way and that's by the parents doing it for them initially, >> doing it for them. when a child doesn't know how to self soothe. So if a child comes to a parent with a difficulty or a problem and the parent either, you know, shuts them down, you know, there's people dying in who knows where, what are you complaining about that or the other extreme, oh I feel so bad, here's a credit card, go buy yourself some ice cream. The common denominator is I didn't help the child soothe. So as a child, the parent needs to do it for them. Then they develop the skill to do it for themselves. So if we parent properly, which again is a podcast in itself, >> yeah, >> but if if children are nurtured properly, and I should just say that whenever we talk about these things, it doesn't mean perfect. There's no such thing as perfect. >> Yeah. >> It doesn't exist. It doesn't h have Thankfully, it doesn't have to be because it doesn't exist. >> Good enough parenting. If it's good enough and the child has a sense of I'm important in this world, not better than others, but I'm just important and I'm valuable and I'm loved because I exist, not because I'm cute or because I was successful. And that doesn't also mean that there's no discipline. If the child does something that needs to be done, they can know the parent is disappointed. So, we're not talking about giving your kid everything they want. But if if you do a good enough job with whatever that means, the chances of developing addiction go down. Now, it doesn't mean they're safe from it, especially pornography. pornography are one of the addictions that we often find that there's less trauma behind in their backstory. But the definitely the um it's it's less likely to develop an addiction if there's a secure base um between the parent and child and and and they're raised in a in a good enough environment. So those are some of the things that >> right secure base attachment feel important feel soothed feel held and going back to the other convers having the conversations with them >> conversations are critically important so it's about sexuality in general and then we have to be able to talk about porn particularly as I said earlier each to themselves one thing I can tell you is and I don't think anybody who's aware of what's going on in our times would say don't talk to them at all what level of discussion and I got my uh you know personal professional opinion >> you want to share that do you have like can you share that very shortly >> sure I think that and this is you know personal professional but also based on rabbinic discussions I've this there's two rules number one if in terms of when number one as soon as you believe that your child is beginning to mature in a way that they're starting to think about these things or recognize sexuality whether starting to feel their own things looking around and noticing things once they're entering that world >> you have to get to them >> and or if somebody else didn't get to them first. So you may have a seven-year-old child who you don't think is anywhere near that world which by the way there are many who start even before that but let's say you think your child nothing they're not related to that world at all but they're in an environment where you believe that their friends are going to talk to them. you have to get to them first. So the ideal is until they're mature enough to handle the conversation and where they're starting to connect to that world. >> But if they're going to get to it from elsewhere, you have to get to them first because you need to be the teacher and not the person in the schoolyard or not pornography because those teachers are not going to give the proper lesson. >> Right. So you want to be the first point of convers point of access to this world. >> Correct. And you have to also know, I mean, everybody's getting to get their backstory. If you have a healthy relationship with sexuality, then you'll probably do a good job. If you have your own backstory, then you got to work through your own stuff first. So that way, a you can talk to them properly and that you even if you have the right information, but if you're going to come up with a panic or you're going to be very scared when you talk to them or you're going to be, you know, make it into a scary thing or a horrible um, you know, this is a very dangerous thing. That's not the energy we want. So you need to consult. >> You need to work on yourself first. >> You need to be in a place, yes, where your own stuff are not getting in the way and you can sit and have a normal serious but casual and comfortable conversation with your child about this world that is out there. >> Yeah, it's interesting. Or what's the power of shame over here? How much does shame play a role in this topic? So most people who engage in these behaviors, they certainly feel shame from the behaviors. Especially in our world, even the secular world, and once you reach the world of addiction, you know, even if in the secular world certain behaviors are okay or encouraged or or taught, once they reach the world of addiction, there's typically shame. So shame actually fuels the addiction. Now, often they're feeling shame pre the addiction for various reasons. And these behaviors are a great medicator from shame because when a person is engaged in any sort of addiction, they're not feeling much of anything including shame. So often the shame predates the addiction and even if it doesn't, it often comes as a result of the addictive behaviors. And then that's that cycle I was mentioned earlier. They go right back to the behaviors because the behaviors medicate >> the shame. >> The shame. So, >> and they don't feel okay. So, they go to the behavior. Now, they feel even worse. >> So, they go right back. >> Now they feel even worse. And then their family members start attacking them and get upset at them or whatever. They feel even worse and and rightfully so. Their family members are coming after them. But and they start feeling worse and worse and more and more deep deep in shame. and then they need the they need the drug or behavior or whatever it is to to um to cover that up >> to escape from that. Now an important piece with shame there's a lot of talk about there's shame and guilt and healthy shame and unhealthy shame. Human beings who don't feel shame do very dangerous things. We're supposed to feel some level of shame. Maybe some call that guilt, but I I think a simpler way is a healthy dose of shame, which means I did something that's wrong. I'm embarrassed about what I did. I shouldn't have done this. We're supposed to feel that. If you don't, we do very horrible things. >> Tell me if you uh tell me if you this this uh relates to what you're saying. Um Bnee Brown likes to say that shame um that guilt is I made a mistake. Shame is I am a mistake. >> Right. So So I that's her uh claim to fame for good reason. No, for good reason. She does a lot of good work. It sounds like from what she's saying, we don't have to sit and take her apart is that shame there's no place for shame. If shame is I am a mistake, there's no place for that. And I know the Bernam doesn't make mistakes. So if I am a mistake, it means he botched up. >> I like to say, which you know, maybe this is just semantics. >> A healthy dose of shame is not that I am a mistake. It's that I'm embarrassed, not just guilty. I'm embarrassed about what I did. >> Right? And I'm supposed to feel that, but it's a healthy dose of it. Not that I am a mistake, not that I don't deserve to be on this planet, >> not that I'm despicable, not that I I don't deserve any goodness, but I'm ashamed of what I did. When a parent says shame on you, no, that's not good. No, >> but the natural shame that I'm bad, I'm despicable, I'm worthless. >> That's a not true, >> right? >> And b is going to do nothing to help you make movement forward. Nobody grows from feeling shame. The most that it could do is if a person's feeling some shame, it could wake them up and say, "Oh, I really don't like this feeling. What should I But we have to empower people, not shame them. >> You feel worthless and you don't feel you are a mistake or anything of that sort, then that's not healthy at all. That's terrible >> and not true. So, you know, if it was true, we'd have to how do we deal with something that's true, but it doesn't help me. It's not true. >> Yeah. >> And yes, most people dealing with addiction are certainly feeling a disproportionate amount of shame. And often they're coming into it with a disproportionate amount of shame. And the thing is, and this is what I pivoted onto the next topic, is not full-on addiction. So, and you talked about shame being a drive of addiction. And there's a lot of people who have shame. And I'm not talking about the healthy type, the unhealthy type, where they don't feel they're worthy of love. They don't feel they're worthy of goodness. They don't feel they're worth something. They don't feel good about themselves in whatever way. A lot of people we all everybody has that on some continuum I think would be correct to say I mean feels unworthy on some continuum and everybody I think most people use something to medicate that whether that's eating too much at the kdesh >> whether that's whether that's overwork too many hours at work to feel important or trying too hard in something and so many other examples technology they're spending hours on their phone or on their computer that they don't want to or scrolling through social media or YouTube or even news whatever it is they're spending way more time than that they want to cuz they're just trying to medicate what's going on inside of them many times the shame that we're talking about I mean the negative type of shame um and what can the regular person do to deal with these behaviors? They're they're stuck in things. They want to eat less. They don't want to use food to comfort them. They don't want to use work to make them feel okay about themselves. You know, they're coming home way too late from work. They're hours on their phone. >> Mhm. >> What do they do to move away from these compulsive behaviors that they're using to medicate on their on their level? Obviously, it's not destroying their lives or anything. They're okay. Everything's fine. They have happy good lives. >> Okay. So, first of all, I mean, you're right. Many people walk around with with the shame. It may not be shame that they're medicating. All these things that you're describing could also be different anxieties and >> depression. They're medicating shame. You're saying they could be medicating a lot of different things. >> These things work marvelously. And just connected for a tangent for a moment, but connected to this is, >> you know, people who can't appreciate these ideas because they're not dealing with addiction, >> they could definitely appreciate what you just described. >> Yeah. you know the in in a bit of a more extreme case somebody let's say who gets drunk on perm whatever was going on in his life whether it's pnaso or shalom bias or health situations when they're drunk they're not feeling any of that somebody with addiction is normally somebody who's feeling those unpleasant things all the time like >> somebody with an addiction is feeling things like that all the time and the only way they feel relief is the way this guy feels on perm and they can't stop so the point being that everybody can relate whether it's how great you feel or how a lack of pain you feel um when you're drunk on Perm >> or when you're scrolling through your phone. >> Correct. So everybody can you go to so some people the music gets you into it and some people you have a little drink or you're scrolling in your phone even just going through the news that hasn't changed in the past five minutes you're checking again and again and again or the world of social media. So everybody on this planet, most people everybody most people can relate to some level of self-medicating >> numbing, >> right? This is what this feels better now. So number one, I would say is that let's >> So first of all, you're saying if you think you can't relate to addiction, you could relate because you don't want to be spending that much time on your phone or eating that much or doing whatever it is and you're doing it. So you're saying >> not everybody, but most of us common folk. I mean, there are definitely people who live on higher planes and let's not paint the whole world with the same paintbrush, but >> your average Joe or Yasula um can probably relate on some level. I'm doing something that probably shouldn't be doing, but it feels good or it's hard to stop >> which doesn't mean addiction, but yes, if you want to relate a little bit and then the person with the addiction is that, you know, tenfold. So I think one of the key pieces what somebody spoke about earlier is if we can learn well okay number one is let's not hold ourselves to perfection you know I don't have to be perfect I can't be you do something that's a little bit too much as long as it's not causing any damage and it's not user don't try to be a uh a transcended person so let's first of all let's give ourselves a little bit of space that if I do >> mistakes to self-medicate sometimes >> yeah to a degree you know to to to a small degree but to a degree. So the point is not let me make myself perfect that doesn't exist >> right but one of the keys I think is that if a person could learn to a identify what's going on for them whether it's shame whether it's anxiety whether it's uh you know fear about certain things to learn how to name what's going on and to learn how to deal with what's going on in a healthy way there's less of a need to go look for a drug or a behavior to go do it but if we're not a conscious of what we're experiencing or if we are we don't know what does it mean to deal with it or we're embarrassed how >> soothe how do you right >> if a person doesn't know how then by default we will go to find something because the human being was wired to want to feel pleasure and want to feel nobody wants to feel pain >> so nobody and pain emotional pain is uh is worse than than physical pain or physical pain is more acute if you're feeling emotional pain and you slam the door on your finger all of a sudden your emotional pain is gone but the emotional pain is much worse than physical pain. >> That's very powerful that you're saying that because I think that gives people a lot of validation when you say that emotional pain is worse than physical pain. Obviously that that thing about the finger whatever but the point being that gives people a lot of validation. People are suffering inside and they feel like they don't have a right to be suffering just in my head. But you're saying yeah emotional pain can be worse than physical pain. >> Pain is is it's it's horrible for people. It's and somebody who's not going through it in a strong way cannot be must sayly they really cannot comprehend the torture of a person who's going through emotional pain which is what addiction is about. Now again I'm sorry for belaboring this point but I work equally with partners and I have to acknowledge again that the fact that they're a tortured soul doesn't change that the partner is being demolished. >> Yeah. And it's important for the person with the addiction to know that that's what's happening. >> Yeah. >> That being said, my little disclaimer. Yes, they are typically tortured souls and and this is what they got. >> Now, there is help and there's hope. You know, if there wasn't, then, you know, we'd be up the creek without a paddle. There is healing >> and there is a way that a person can move through this and not live as a tortured soul. But somebody who's feeling emotional pain, the the it's a horrible horrible life. >> Yeah. And that's very powerful. Um how horrible that is. There's healing, but it's it's tortured. It's a tortured soul. >> And then again, then they engage in the behaviors and that adds to the tortured soul. to the tortured soul squared or whatever the right equation >> physical pain at least they could talk about openly you know I'm in terrible pain emotional they can't >> right that's another piece they can't because it's whether it's more embarrassing to talk about or people don't get it or they don't realize that it's okay to talk about or it's something they don't wear a physical pain you often see the pain and not every other people who are in physical pain and they're masking inside as well but yes it's more accepted to talk about it it's it's easier to talk about emotional pain is certainly harder most people talk about. >> Yeah. Um, you're talking about finding healing and one of the places that many addicts find healing, probably the most common place is in the 12step rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, Sexaholics Anonymous, all these different rooms of 12step meetings. And people I know people who who go to them and they describe them as very human places, very honest places, very grounding places and they describe it as a certain humanness that people have in that room and a spirituality that you don't find other places and an embracing of the human condition of being a human imperfect person working through that. How can we take the lessons and the spirituality and the the humanism from those rooms to everybody's life? So >> like actually I'll just tell you my professor had an assignment that we have to go visit a AA meeting an open AA meeting and many people came back and said why don't they have this for regular people who are not addicts professor we had to write a paper on it why not like why is this only for people with addicts they get to have a room like this >> so when I first got into the addiction field I went to many open AA meetings and it was one of the first times that I saw that level of like you're describing openness, vulnerability as a group, openness, vulnerability, honesty, you know, talking about spirituality in a in a um such a real way, not just talking about Hashem as like this thing that exists, but somebody actively involved in your life. There was a beauty in that room that I I've never seen in a group until walking through those rooms. the 12 steps which is not I mean I encourage most clients to at least see if it can work for them. There's some people it's not the right place. There's some rooms that are not good for people. That's a another topic. But I certainly encourage most clients to at least check out that world and see if it's something that could be beneficial for them. There the steps are something that is part and parcel with Yiddish. They're just not called 12 steps. Somebody who's working on themselves and somebody who's an is working the 12 steps just they're not calling them 12 steps. So how can we take them? I think somebody who's working on themselves, somebody who learns mus, somebody who has a rebi, somebody who's looking really has a whether it's a vad or kabur of self-growth, they're working the steps. Now maybe it would be beneficial for somebody to look at the steps and and take them into our world a little more. You don't have to call it the 12 steps but take it and make it very practical. >> What about the the uh the humanness and the honesty and the openness like where can a person get that in their life? So you know there's a difference between secrecy and privacy. There are some things that are private. You know just to go to any person in the street or even to a good friend and talk start talking about all your difficulties. It's not what we're supposed to do. whether it's from you again sne perspective uh um it's just inappropriate that's it's none of their business the impact it may have on my family to go tell anybody you see now in those rooms officially there's a level of safety which is what they're supposed to be unfortunately it's not always that way but there's a level of safety whoever's in that room is dealing with it as well there's a rules about confidentiality and and the people in that room in those rooms are all dealing with significant problems that's why they go into those rooms And there's a a built-in environment to talk about those things. Somebody who's not in those rooms. You got to choose wisely. And just again to go tell anybody what you're dealing with is off. But where can you take it if somebody has I mean a trusted friend, a spouse, a Rebi, a Mashiach. I think we all benefit from having at least somebody in our life that we can talk at that level that people in 12step rooms talk about. And it's not with a whole group. Um but to have somebody in your life that you can really talk about what's going on is something that is extremely important >> right >> for us. >> Have somebody in your life that you can talk to openly. Obviously pick carefully and don't just share your secrets but have someone in your life you could talk to is a very powerful thing. >> Yeah because I'll talk about talking to people. We're supposed to talk to people and and when you talk to some every everybody knows from their experiences even if they never in a 12step room if they have an if they had an opportunity to be open let's say with a rebi many people experience and if they had that type of kesher where they were able to be really open about things that they were very embarrassed about there was probably a relief in talking about it besides forget what the person is able to tell them but just for me to get it off of your chest >> and for it to be received properly >> and with respect >> it's a it's It's a wonderful feeling. >> So yes, um we we can borrow those ideas in the 12step room. It's built in. That's what you come in there for. If you're not in that world, >> then you have to find the right person. Um but we can all borrow that that concept and find some place in our life where we can do that. >> Close with asking you if you had a message that you can shout out and everybody in the community will take in take it to heart. What would that be? >> The message. This is what you asked me earlier. the the the thing my favorite place the th those does are >> the the you don't have to take it so you know give two messages if you like >> I guess keeping in context with what we're discussing here as opposed to a general message so I would say for people who are dealing with addiction >> what would your general message be >> you already I'm talking about this crap >> general message go on a hike >> go on a hike >> for dealing with let's say people with addictions um addiction recovery. Well, two things. Number one, most people who come for help, they were at a place where either they were feeling a lot of shame that stopped them from coming for help or despair. I tried so hard. I keep on telling myself and then something happened that pushed them to come for help. So, one message would be is if somebody is struggling with addiction, there are a lot of reasons why it may be hard or or scary or or feel silly to come get help, but just know that help is available and people can heal and and easy to say don't let it block you. It's doesn't work that way. Just don't let it block you. But don't let the shame or the despair block you. If you haven't made progress yet, it's not because you're doomed. >> It's not because you can't get well. >> Yeah. >> It's because the steps that are necessary to be taken haven't been taken. >> Right. >> That's one piece, >> right? You could get well, you just need help. >> Right. You need help. That's the, you know, to you went to 12 step that they have powerlessness. People sometimes one of the first step is I'm powerless. So a common point if I'm powerless, so what's the point to 12 step? What's the point of therapy? >> It means you need help. Powerless means I can't do with simple willpower alone. >> Yeah. >> That most things in life, if I really don't want to do this, I won't. With addiction, simply saying I don't want to is not going to do be the trick. It's not going to do the trick. But if you get the right help and you deal with the addiction, you deal with the underlying trauma, which as you said is a equally large part of my practice, like really healing from trauma properly. If you do the steps that it takes, you will get well. You're not powerless over reaching out for help. You're not powerless over doing the next right move. You're not powerless over again getting help. So, a to know that there is help out there. I would tell parents who have to deal with uh you know, you talking about pornography before, but addiction in general is if you can let your child know some of the things that we discussed and besides the education, but let them feel and because it's real. You can't just put on a show their importance, their value, their specialness. If you can see them, soothe them when they're younger. If you can really provide that secure base, as scary as it is a world that we live in, because addiction, as I said earlier, can get anybody, you decreased the likelihood of them developing an addiction, and you certainly have given them better coping skills that if they do develop an addiction, you know, easier time dealing with it. So, and this my little pet peeve is telling parents, put down your phone, look at your child in their eye, and talk to them and see them. And that will go very, very far. What would you um had one follow up to that. I'm trying to remember it. Quick followup. Oh, what would your message be to the tortured soul? You spoke about the tortured soul before. The soul that's like tremendous, tremendous emotional pain. What would your message be to the tortured soul? >> So in addition to that first message of there is hope and there is there is hope and there is help. A a key piece of a lot of the work that that when I work with clients is that even that tortured soul there is a part of them inside that is not tortured and we would call it perhaps kamal others may call it core self functional adult. Everybody's got their own name for it. But as tortured as you are, there is a part of you that is not traumatized, not addicted, not depressed, not anxious, not tortured. And what's been happening is that that tortured soul has been led, has been taken over by all these other parts. So getting help is not about we got to create some healthy you, which okay, forget I'm there's no hope for me. There's no creating healthy you. We want to help you get in touch with that deeper part inside that made you with that never ever ever goes away or disappears. >> Beautiful. >> And knowing that you have that in you hopefully will make it a little bit easier >> to reach out for the help that that really is available and there is healing. >> And not just there's hope in the future, you have the hope inside of you now. >> Exactly. I I think it was um Rabbit Turski I think. I don't remember. I'm almost sure it was him though who once described I think he was dealing with talking about addiction. We could talk about anything that working with people is like polishing diamonds. A diamond I've never seen it in its raw state but from what they say is that it, you know, it's dirty. It's not shaped properly. It's no shine. When somebody polishes the diamond, all they're doing is polishing it. The shine comes naturally because it's always there. They're not creating the shine. And that's for anything whether you're dealing with addiction or depression or anxiety or any of the other challenges that people deal with or trauma that shine is there now to simply say go shine. I think everybody would if it was that simple. >> So we need to help them get there but they can. >> Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom, your advice, your heart with us. Thank you so much for coming on and doing this. >> My pleasure. Keep up the good work to school of mitzvah and I hope this will be a benefit to somebody out