How do we build emotional wellbeing and save our marriages? | With Rabbi Tzvi Sytner

He said, "You know what's going to happen? Probably if you tell somebody I'm depressed or I have anxiety, they'll probably say, "Me, too." You know what's going to happen? You tell somebody, [laughter] "Hey, you know, I'm taking this medication. Let's you taking those? Oh, I'm taking I'm taking a different one. From guy, he said, I'd love visitors." I said, "Oh, so you don't mind if I tell people?" He goes, "No, I'm not ashamed of the fact that I have severe, you know, depression. We're all going through stuff. You don't have to go through it alone." You know, when he says, "You don't know how to run a shul because you're not there for the people and the people need," what he really means is, "I rabbi, I would love a little more attention. and I feel sad that I don't have that and I need I need a mother and a father. They had a Q&A afterwards with with the Roberas. And one of the guys goes, >> you know, he's like, "So, uh, Rabbi, like uh when was the like first time you like, you know, you know, experienced real love, you know, >> and and like all the guys in the cola were like like like burying their heads, you know, like, oh my gosh." And he paused, which for a minute it felt like it felt like eternity. >> Beyond Therapy, bringing you emotional [music] well-being. Thank you very much for sitting for coming on. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. >> Yes, it's really nice to have you here. Most people know you as the rabbi of the village, popular speaker. People don't know so much about you that you are a certified therapist. >> Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Not licensed here in Canada, but uh because I moved here for a rabbitic role in Kiru. But but yes, before I came here, I got uh my master's degree as a marriage and family therapist. >> And that was more focused on the marriage part. >> Uh it was both. It was both. And it's also like more of a holistic approach to therapy is like, you know, not just looking at the client, but also the family, you know, how their, you know, what their uh other relationships are like, influences, etc. And sometimes working with the extended family as well. But um but it was it was one-on-one and also couples. >> Oh, very nice. >> In fact, I I had an interesting before I moved here uh when I was doing my master's degree. So, my uh placement was in you can call it a community center, uh a drop-in center. Some people would would confuse it with a homeless shelter. Uh like it was really like kind of a rough >> place. uh like people are really at rock bottom when they're there. But was interesting was a bunch of the people that I worked with personally were couples. >> Oh wow. >> Who had both been there uh and both had mental illness. >> Wow. >> So sometimes I would have where they would, you know, both are schizophrenic or both bipolar or one, you know, uh manic depressive. What it really interesting and that and and some of them had great relationships actually. You'd be surprised. Yeah. But anyway, it was Yeah, it was >> some of the marriages were great. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Despite their mental illness. >> Yeah. >> It's fascinating. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. It was interesting. >> Yeah. People like a lot of people are concerned about marriages in Toronto and the world. People are concerned how to make marriages last. What breaks marriages apart? What strengthens a decent marriage? into a better marriage. What would what are the thoughts come to your mind when you hear marriage and hear divorce and you hear these type of things? What what are the thoughts that come to your mind? >> So, the the first thing that I and I work with a lot of couples getting who, you know, they'll reach out to me to officiate their weddings and I'll say, you know, the wedding is 6 hours long and the marriage is hopefully like another 80, 90 years. So, let's focus on the marriage and let's focus on the marriage itself, not just the wedding. and and and in fact often I don't even end up doing the weddings >> uh for one reason or another. Um but I will end up uh spending a lot of time with them. So one of the things I tell all the couples is I ask them you know they're sitting in front of me. I says so what do you do for a living? You know she'll say I'm a lawyer. He'll say I'm a doctor. I say okay how many years you go to school? Five years, seven years, nine years, whatever. I said great. >> Um and then I said how many how many years you go to school for your marriage? And they're like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, you know, clearly the fact that you put so much time into your professions means you value you wanted the education to be able to master your professions." I said, "Where's the education to master your marriages?" and and they looked at me and I and I said to I said, "My my goal with you is to kind of get you your PhD in marriage before this wedding because and obviously it's um you know being exaggerating a bit there, but but the point is that for some reason when it comes to marriage, we're literally ready to just get in the driver's seat with no education and no preparation." And nobody would do that. And I say to him like, "Would you ever like go into court without, you know, being prepared as a lawyer? Did you ever go into surgery without a preparedness? I never >> marriage everybody just gets right into the driver's seat. No problem. I got this. And I think that's the first that's the big that's the first mistake is for some reason there's no priority on education. And and the irony is if you ask people what is the most important thing in your life? They'll tell you my marriage or my kids. And then you say okay. >> Yeah. Parenting people don't either. They don't put in they don't train themselves. >> Same with parenting. Same with parenting. I forget who was a certain r. I asked him once, "What's uh you know, when do you start educating um yourself on uh how to raise kids?" And they the rough answer was 20 years before they're born. >> Oh, wow. [laughter] >> You know, like that's so so there's this you ask people like, you know, what's most important to you? My marriage, my kids. Where do you spend most of your time at work? >> You know, the gap between what's important and uh >> Yeah. >> So, I think the number one thing I think first and foremost is to ask yourself how how important is this? Because if it's if it's not then you know uh and and how much are we do what are we doing to prepare >> how many books have you read I ask people say how many books have you read I'm Jewish not Jewish but how many books how many podcasts have you listened to how many experts I remember when I when I was uh um when I was yeshiva bakar and I had gotten engaged and I remember I said to my rebby and I was very close with my rebi and I said to him uh you know he says great you going to be a good husband I was like of course. What do you mean? Like he's like, "How do you do that?" I'm like, "What do you mean like just, you know, be nice?" And >> and he really like his his point to me was >> uh to educate yourself. I think maybe that's where I got this from, but and I remember literally sitting with people, people who had been married 50, 60, 70 years. I sat with them and I was like, "Tell me what makes a great marriage." Look, I'm getting married and you're married 60 years. Tell me what the secret what's the secret of a happy marriage. And and so it was between learning sparm and reading books and listening to audio and speaking to people that was that was a that was so important to me. >> Yeah. I heard somebody say once that like you know people say that you don't need to train yourself for marriage or for having kids. I know I watched my parents. I know this. I know that. And somebody said like a very good point. He says even if you don't like the wisdom you learned from any of these courses but at least you're conscious of what you're doing. You know you have you're thinking you're doing it consciously. You're thinking about your marriage. You're thinking about how you're raising your kids. >> Yeah. And I I to to your point, by the way, about, you know, people and I think this is part of why people don't prepare because they feel like, look, I grew I grew up with I I watched a marriage, you know, I had shimos. I watched for 30 years. I watched my parents whatever, right? I think I think that's part of the reason why I think the reason why that's a mistake is because first of all, who said that your what you witnessed with your parents was actually a healthy relationship? People automatically assume they are. And you know, sometimes a couple gets divorced after 30, 40 years. Like, what happened there? What was going on? How long? So, people assume, well, I know how to do it cuz I watch my parents. Well, first of all, who said they had a good marriage? Just cuz they weren't yelling means nothing. >> Yeah. >> But even if they did have a good marriage, remember that you're not your father. >> Your wife's not your mother. And and and she has a certain expectation of her father. So, there's the dynamics are uh it's not plugandplay. That's all. >> No. Yeah. Not at all. People often assume that marriages fall apart because of mental illness. I mean it's an assumption that people have sometimes. And the interesting thing is you were saying that these people who you in your placement worked with had crazy mental illness. We're talking about schizophrenia and real issues, real pathological issues and they were able to make a marriage work. You think it's about awareness of and being self-aware of what you have and working with it? what makes you know people's struggles in their mental health work in a marriage and not work in a marriage. So I think that it's such a great question. Um I think that there is a line that people cross in their minds where they make a decision. Um, are they willing to put in the work? Are they willing to really work hard to have a great relationship? These couples and people that I worked with who I said they they were like rock bottom. Like they they were they were really like grinding. They were doing the work. talk about like self-awareness and transparency and >> being able to like you know um uh uh be vulnerable and and and and therapy upon therapy upon therapy and >> there was so much work. Now, you could say, "Okay, they have like severe mental illness and someone else, well, they don't have the mental illness, so therefore, you know, they'll be much better off." And I actually think that part of why these couples thrive the way they did is because is because they realized I I don't know what I'm doing. I need to work. I need >> because of their issues, they they're able to come to the realization they need work. And people, regular people don't think they need work. >> Yeah, I'm fine. I got this. I got this. What you're going to tell me about marriage? I got this. I know what I'm doing. Whereas they're like, "No, no, no. I need therapist. I need help. help you whatever and they they really are they admit you know they're they're maida there's like a certain like admission you know people say like why it's so hard to say thank you you know to have to be mod because being mod is also thanking is also admitting that I I couldn't have done it without you and >> there's a you know their their ability to be able to admit I need help um and I'm going to go for the help and to have that humility to do that and then to have the vulnerability and and they were just like they were doing the Wow. >> That was >> that is the that that is a big key is that awareness and that willingness to take help. >> Yeah. Yeah. There there's no busha. >> Yeah. >> There was no ba around it. >> I just visited a guy in the health facilities here in Toronto. And when I went to visit him, I said to him, "Is there anything I could do?" And he's like, "Yeah, I'd love visitors." >> And this is a guy from the Jewish community, a from guy. He said, "I'd love visitors." I said, "Oh, so you don't mind if I tell people?" He goes, "No, I'm not ashamed of the fact that I have severe, you know, depression." >> Wow. And in fact, I would I would love people to visit me. So I went and I told his, you know, 10 close friends and they all did. They had no idea. And they went to the hospital and they visited him. >> But that that idea of like he wasn't ashamed. >> And that's what these couples they were they're not ashamed to get the help that they need and to work at the stuff they have to work at. And I think that that when there's when there is u hesitancy for whatever reason whether it's because of shame or whether it's because of certain you know uh uh false confidence of oh I've got this they don't do the work >> right well wow >> I'll just uh tell you that I actually this is like an epiphany for me because I never thought I never connected the work that I was doing with these couples and why perhaps they were so successful um and and sort of taken those lessons to apply them to regular everyday couple. I just never even thought about that. But, you know, the fact that you're probing me on this, I'm like, "Yeah, you're right." Like, >> that's very interesting. >> Yeah. Like, they're ready to do the work. I You said before was very powerful about the mental health of this person that you went to visit him in the hospital. >> Yeah. >> And he wasn't ashamed to take help. I think that's such a big topic. There's so many people in our community who are suffering and like it's not like those people are suffering. It's in every family. It's in every It's everywhere. >> Everywhere. >> Right. And people are suffering with whether it's anxiety, depression, addictions. These things are all happening. >> Yeah. >> And you see it all the time, I'm sure. >> Yeah. We all see it. >> Yeah. >> Every like as you said, every family. >> Yeah. And that loneliness, it's like somebody has a disease and they could talk about it. They can get support. They can get people to help their family. But you have this guy with mental illness or this girl with mental illness woman, this mother, nobody knows. Friends don't know. People don't know. She's too ashamed to talk about it. And people are alone. And like there is no visitors. I think I think part of the extreme mental illness is this loneliness that is that makes it so much harder. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And actually I tell people uh regardless of what the situation is, sometimes it's uh someone had a loss in the family, someone passed away, and there's nothing I can say that's going to make that person come back. >> But the one thing I always tell people always is I can't bring them back, but I could tell you that you're not alone in this and and that I'm here. I'm here for you. I'm here with you and and we're going to get through this together. It's one of the lines that I I often share with people before a funeral, before I officiate a funeral, is I'll tell them like, "Hey, >> I am going to virtually be holding your hand." Wow. >> You know, metaphysically holding your hand >> from now until this funeral is over. >> And and and that gives people a lot of a lot of >> comfort because they're in a place of feeling uh despair and depressed and anxious and >> so many I mean I mean ultimately look like you know what is anxiety? It's it's the unknowns of life, right? If we knew, we wouldn't be anxious. We wouldn't be nervous, but we don't. There's so much we don't know. And therefore, we're anxious about and they've got this funeral the next day. And >> it's not something you practice very often, you know. >> So, I often tell people, you're not alone. >> Yeah. That's what's so beautiful. This guy was able to say, I want people to come and I want people I don't mind if people know I don't want to be alone. just something that sure helps his recovery a lot instead of being alone in a hospital room. >> Yeah. I wish we had in uh and I think this is sort of what you're alluding to here is just like how taboo things are. You know, you mentioned and whatever and nobody wants to talk about it, but yet and I said this one my shim recently. I said like we're so afraid. We're so afraid. Nobody wants to say I'm going through something so hard. Nobody wants to say it. I said, 'You know what's going to happen? Probably if you tell somebody I'm depressed or I have anxiety, they'll probably say, "Me, too." You know what's going to happen? You tell somebody, "Hey, [laughter] you know, I'm taking this medication. Let's say, oh, you taking those?" "Oh, I'm taking I'm take a different one." I said, "That's probably what's going to happen." I said, like, everybody's just going through it like, you know, in a silo. Everyone's going through it independently, but but it's uh it's it's we're we're all going through stuff. I wish there was like I you know support groups or maybe that's not even the word just like open forums where things can be you know people don't have to be worried about about things that they're going through. >> Yeah. Look I tell you a funny story. I was meeting with a I was meeting with a um a couple reached out to me a while back and uh to meet with my wife and I to discuss a situation where their child was dating someone and what do we do? They're going on and on and on about this child who comes from a broken home. Comes from a broken home and you know we don't know and it's pretty advanced and they're dating and you know we didn't realize broken home broken home broken home. Anyway, you know what? So you know what aids they give them. Yeah. At one point I said to them, you know, when my parents got divorced, >> and they looked at me and they were like, first of all, I think they were looking for like a hole to crawl into, like, wait, you come you come from, and I hate the term, but a broken home. >> Yeah. >> Anyway, so I said to myself, I said, you know, when my parents got divorced, I said, um, you know, and they had been married like 30 years. And when I was uh engaged, as I said before, I took it so seriously. I did not take it for granted that of course what do you mean if I grew up in a home where my parents were married it must have been that I'll just do what they did no the opposite now my parents there were a lot of wonderful things that they modeled for me >> but it it in a very healthy way in a very positive got me to question and therefore I ended up putting in so much more work and and you know and I'm far from perfect in life in many areas but one of the things that my wife and I are very proud of is is our bias and and and and it's of course It's all my credit. No, I'm joking. [laughter] It's it's my wife is amazing. Actually, to me, I think it comes from the fact that like I I I I think that, you know, I question and therefore I'm willing to put in that that extra work because >> um you know, I I realize that there's there's something wrong here. People are so hesitant. Oh, that the guy should know he shouldn't have any issues or she shouldn't have any issues. It may have mental health challenges. And it's like to me that's like and my wife always says this people people will contact her she's a she's a psychiatric nurse practitioner and they'll you know they have someone in and then they'll contact her and they'll say oh my goodness the the should have just you know said that they have xyz you know mental mental uh mental health challenge and my wife says wife often says um that's great like every She says that everybody has something >> right >> most people when they get married don't know what it is they're about to get into >> here you just found out >> wow >> now the question is is it being managed properly and as a person you know if they are wonderful this is great now you know what you're getting yourself into you know how they're managing you know how to deal with it and the fact that the person has the self-awareness that they themselves know what they have they know what they struggle with they're willing to do the work to me that's a wonderful thing >> but we're so scared of it >> I guess it builds people you know >> yeah It does people leaders and >> yeah I I heard someone uh said in the name ofi they had asked him what should a girl be looking for in a boy inim and uh you know you're expecting the you know masid answer you know and he said a a balima and a balacas yeah someone who's generally happy >> right >> um and someone who's follow Christ is ready, you know, he can take responsibility. And to me, that second one especially, like it's not about how perfect you are coming into this, you know, or pretending to be, but >> it's about like really are you are you someone in life who's who's ready to take responsibility for yourself, for your life, for your everything. >> Ready to do the work. >> Ready to do the work. And that comes back to that thing. Yeah. >> Common theme that we have today. Yeah. >> Yeah. Ready to do the work. I mean that's what we start off with right with that with that with those couples and also with that the whole PhD thing like are you ready to do the work and I I say this is I didn't mention this at the beginning but when you ask me what are some of the things that people uh that I find that you know contributing to people's struggles in their in their marriages and rel and I think part of it is expectations >> we have to come uh as realizing we're coming as two very different people yes we have commonalities and things that we that we share but we're we're actually uh we're not just one we're we are two separate people that are coming together and and that's going to be that's going to mean that there's going to be a lot of work that we have to do and I tell I tell this I said I I ask all couples so why are you getting married and they laugh like what do you mean >> and they give this you know typical answers well we love each other compatibility um uh companionship um whatever they we want to build a family trust they go through all this stuff >> and and and I and I tell them >> you you know, you could you could have uh com compatibility, you can have companionship, you could have love even without getting married. I said, "What's like why get married?" And then I go into this whole thing about a Jewish marriage. I said, "You're actually going into this to grow." >> Wow. >> And I tell him, I said, "You're getting married to grow." >> Right? >> And knowing that there's differences, knowing that you're not going to be perfectly compatible. And with that in mind, when you hit bumps in your relationship, you're not going to go, "Oh my gosh, this is not what I was expecting. This is not what I was." You're like, "This is what I'm in. I'm in it for like I came in. I'm ready to do the work." >> Yeah. When Mar said his Rebby told him this before he got married, you're gonna one day in your marriage, you're just going to be like, "Why on earth did I marry this woman?" [laughter] >> And don't be shocked that it happens. >> Yeah. And that's and that's where the work begins. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And she's thinking the same thing. >> But I think also a very important point to say is that like we talk about the hard work. What I think also important to talk about is the beauty that comes from that hard work and the beautiful relationship you create and the beautiful life that you create together and how worth it that is you know yeah there's uh there's no question about it that a person has a good strong marriage strong relationship it's like everything in life I don't want to say will fall into place but will be so much easier to navigate. you have a life partner who you truly trust and feel like you're on the journey of life with, >> right? >> There's there's ups and there's downs, but you're like now, you know, they say in life you can't get you can't control the waves, but you can learn to surf, you know, like you have somebody that you're like going through the waves of life together with >> and uh and and the opposite is true, too. When you don't have a strong relationship, it it just like weighs on everything. >> Yeah. But yeah, the most be you know what's interesting? There was a study done um by the woman named Maggie Scarf I believe her name is. And uh there was a study or a book I think it was called September songs was the name of this little magazine or booklet or I can't remember what it's been years since I saw it. But basically what she did was she interviewed couples who had been married like 50 or more years and asked them to describe their marital satisfaction. And they all described like obviously at the beginning was like really high. They all described like this really >> that dopamine rush. >> Yeah. It was like amazing. We were you know we engaged and d married and like they all described this high and then as they start going through their course of life you know financial struggles kids mortgage tuition whatever illness all kinds of stuff that you know life life has. And as they're describing it they're describing their mental satisfaction sort of declining. >> Wow. And then they continued describing their metal satisfaction as they go through their their life. And where it ended up with every single one of these couples who was married 50 years plus was it was always higher. It was a U-shaped curve, but it was always higher the second time around. Higher than it started. >> Wow. >> And uh and that's to your point of like, you know, yeah, you're doing the work, but if you can if you can really do the work throughout the you know those difficult times, you're actually going to come out with one of the most beautiful things even more beautiful than it started with, which is so >> profound. I guess more deeply beautiful than just that the beginning is not as deep of a beauty. It's more of a excitement and a >> Yeah. Yeah. >> A rush. >> Yes. Exactly. >> That second part of the U is that like a beautiful relationship. >> Yeah. I once heard someone ask uh you know Rabisak Burko it's my rebiator also and uh I was I remember years ago it's 15 20 years ago I'm I'm sitting in the col there was a group of university students from some university and they were in Israel on a program and they they came to the col and you know they're they're they're clueless in terms of like you know cover and like that's not so like one of the guys they had a Q&A afterwards with with Roberquitz and one of the guys goes you know he's like so uh rabbi like When was the like first time you like you know you know experienced real love you know and and like all the guys in the col were like like like burying their heads you know like oh my gosh and he paused which for a minute it felt like it felt like eternity was like this quiet in the >> and he said >> true love true love probably about 25 years in >> wow >> that's what he said and you You heard it in the pause. You heard it in his >> Wow. >> He wasn't saying I when I got married I love my wife. >> He was he what what you heard in that is there's levels there's depth to love and to and to relationships >> and he said you know and he paused and he said if he goes true love real true love probably 25 years in. >> Yeah. >> So powerful. I'll never forget it. Really? Uh >> it is very powerful. >> Yeah. So I'm celebrating my 20th anniversary this year. >> Oh wow. Not so in five years. [laughter] >> I wanted to go more into the mental health side of things. Do you have a message for people like you have people suffering right and different levels of suffering but the commonality that I was talking about before is the aloneeness and the not being able to share with other people whether it's their kids suffering or them suffering or they feel they can't share with other people. Do you have a message to people, regular people who are just suffering internally, fighting battles heroically, showing up in their lives and trying to take care of themselves mental health-wise, but it's really hard. It's really, really hard and especially because they're doing it alone and the pain and everything that goes with it. The first thing I would say is um you don't have to go through it alone. I I know that's the feeling. The feeling is I can't tell anybody. If I were to tell if I were to tell someone, what would they say? What would people think? First of all, most people would would would be impressed. I have a I have a newfound respect for this guy who I visited in in the you know, I always knew him. He's been a one of my balabatin for years. I always thought he was a nice guy, >> but I I have a I have a tremendous respect for the guy when he was when he when he said to me, I'm not ashamed to be here. That's a G. That's a G. That's someone who has courage. That's someone who's got like >> inner I was so impressed with and I and I respect him so much more. >> People are not going to judge you the way you think they are. Sure, there may be people who will and those people you don't want them in your life anyway, >> but I really believe um that that one thing that everyone needs to hear is you don't have to go through it alone. Everyone's everyone's going through something. Everyone. Everyone. I haven't met anyone who isn't going through something. >> Wow. And you don't have to go through it alone. Reach out for help. People are not people people want to help. And and and and you know I would tell people if someone asked me you know what would you say to a friend if they asked you if they told you I'm suffering what should I do? How would you respond to that? What would you tell them? >> You know and even these people who themselves are suffering alone would say well I would want to help them and I would offer them. I would tell them not to be embarrassed about. Right. That's exactly what someone's going to tell you. You know reach out for help. There's so many resources. >> Yeah. You're It would be a It's a big It's a big level to do that. It's a big level of strength. >> Yeah. The other thing that someone told me which I thought was was a nice reminder is that if you feel like you hit rock bottom, the beauty is that it's only uphill from here, >> right? >> You you can't go lower than rock bottom. >> I think something very interesting. I had a I had a um a supervisor when I was uh working in this this uh drop-in facility uh in New York. And I remember while I was doing supervision and working with these couples and and and individuals, there was a terrible tragic case in Munie of a father um who was found dead. >> Wow. uh father of like six or seven kids and he had taken his life and it like really weighed heavy on me. It weighed heavy on me and I was just and my I just was in shock in the beginning and then I went into my supervisor because I had a thought. I said to her I said this is going to sound terrible. Please forgive me but and she's not she wasn't Jewish. I said to her, "If this guy was in that much pain that he was um willing to leave a wife on her own and kids on their own, which like this is the last thing any father would want to do, but if he was in that much pain, maybe we shouldn't be so sad that he took his life because he was truly he had to have been suffering to a point that none of us could imagine if that's how far he went." >> Wow. I said, "So maybe we shouldn't maybe we shouldn't see it as such tragedy." This what this is like a weird thought that I had. I don't actually believe that. I don't actually think that. But that was a thought that crossed my mind. >> The point of that thought is not that it's of course life is important, but that to realize the extent of the pain he's going through. >> Yeah. And and that's when she said to me something that I thought was amazing. And I never looked up the study myself, but she she said to me, you know, there were studies that were done of people who had attempted suicides and um and they were they fa failed attempts. So they swallowed the bottle of pills or jumped off the building or whatever >> and they survived. And she said, "One of the things that they found with these studies in these interviews is that the moment they swallowed the pills or jumped or cut or whatever, the moment they did it, they right away regretted what did I do?" >> Wow. >> And she said, "One of the things that we we saw from here is that people who kill themselves don't want to die." >> Yeah. >> People who attempt suicide don't want to die. They just don't want to be in pain. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. They don't want to be in pain. >> They don't want to be in pain and they don't know how to get out of pain. The reality is today more than ever throughout history, we have so many ways. There's so many wonderful medications and people have all this taboo around it, but like there's so many wonderful >> therapy and good good >> therapy. Exactly. And there's nothing wrong with it. It's wonderful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, like you said about support groups earlier and I I really like I deeply believe that sharing that pain with other people and being able to experience it as a community and not be in your in your house stuck alone with it and that you said like sharing with other people. I think that's a huge help to people. Connection is a big part of the healing. Yeah, >> absolutely. Part of why like AA groups and 12step programs are successful. part of why I mean there's many reasons but um going not going through it alone going going to you know being able to connect with other people and uh >> and these groups oh my gosh I just I just remembered a story when I when I was uh >> years ago so part of my training was attend attending a uh a 12step program an AA meeting >> right >> and I remember >> I think I'm gonna have to do that soon. Yeah, it's it's I'll tell you about my experience, but I uh I I went I remember I went to an AA meeting. It was in the basement of a church in in White Plains, New York. And you know, I was a yeshiva guy and I you know put on a a beanie and I was wearing a coat and it was the winter and you don't go to an AA meeting and observe any any AA meeting you go to there's confidentiality there and there's mutual respect and there's understanding and therefore you go in as a participant. Everyone goes a participant. So, I go in and I sit there and uh um you know, everyone's going around the room. Hi, my name is John. You know, I'm an alcoholic. And I go, you know, etc., etc. I struggle with this, that, and one by one, they're all going around the table uh going around the room. And then eventually comes my turn. And um you know, I said, "My name is uh I'm I'm going to pass." I'm like, "It's my first time here, and I'm going to pass." That's what I said. After the meeting, two people came up to me and gave me their phone number. >> Wow. >> Complete strangers. >> Wow. >> And they said, uh, you know, TV, I remember my first meeting. I I know what you're going through and, uh, you call me if you need anything. >> Wow. >> And I remember thinking to myself like like is the world is backwards. We look out there. There we go. Like all the successful, healthy, quote unquote people, everyone, you know, that's the real world. In here, these are all the broken people. When I'm like, it's the opposite. In here, there's no there's there's there's wealthy and there's poor. There's doctors and lawyers, and there's janitors, and they're all in the room together. >> And what brings them together is their struggle. And I remember thinking to myself, there's no judgment. >> There's just acceptance. And there's humility. And and people just want to help each other. >> Yeah. and and and and when you come forth and say, "Hey, I'm I'm I'm having trouble." They they're willing to just give their phone number, say, "Hey, I want to help you through this. This is the way." I remember walking away going, "This is the way the world is supposed to be." >> Supposed to be. Yeah. >> Out there is actually the world of Sheare where everybody's putting on a front pretending like whatever. You know what I mean? No one can be honest with each other. No one can be open. No one can say everyone's afraid to be judged. Everyone, you know, people are afraid. And here is the way the world should be. >> Yeah. Like imagine everybody could come to shul and feel comfortable fully that they don't have to hide something. Often people feel like they can't fully show up, you know, and if people could do that, that would be an amazing thing. >> Yeah. Yeah. And and I think the point that you're you're getting at here is not that, you know, we're all going to just uh wear everything on our sleeve and, you know, that everybody comes a world where everyone's just sharing everything. You know, it's like, hey, you know, you know, TMI, what do I say? Too much information, >> right? But it's that, you know, the idea is not that we all have to share everything. Certain things are okay to stay private. But there but when you're feeling like you need help and you're feeling like you need to share something, you shouldn't you shouldn't have to be concerned, right? But, you know, but it'll be incredible to be able to be able to reach out for that support and not feel ashamed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I wanted to ask you about how you go about, if that's okay, asking you about how you go about your like promoting your own mental um health, your own emotional wellness. [snorts] [sighs] I'm not good at it. Um, in full transparency, uh, yeah. So, I think type A personalities, including my own, uh, where, you know, we just, we continue to go in fifth in fifth gear for a long time. Uh, and unfortunately, um, not pausing enough to take care of ourselves. You know, as the old saying goes, put on your own mask and then put on your child's, right? >> Uh, so I'm not good at it. So, I'm probably not the example to the world of uh um of self-care, but there are things uh that there are many things that I've done. Um and when I say I'm not good at it, what I mean to say is I'm a hard worker. Uh and I'm not consistent. But at times when I feel like I need, I have a lot of resources. >> Uh things like I I find breathing exercises to be incredible. >> Um especially I think noteworthy is when a person is in a a place where they had a really hard day things are you know really they're going through a very stressful time to say you know to sit there and do some you know breath work is it's actually much harder it's easy to do breath work when things are great but like when you're having a hard day and your mind is racing and you're you're in like a you know a place of you know really stressful place I actually find that it's more helpful to have a guided meditation or guided breath work then and there's like thousands of them out there, right? You just Google five minute breath work and just listen to someone walk you through a five minute, you know, guide meditation or something like that and >> it calms you down >> completely. It will slow your heart rate and it'll slow your breathing and it'll slow your mind and and just it literally just gets you with your feet back on the ground. And I've had this where people call me and again I say like I'm I'm good at it with other people but unfortunately when it comes to myself I only do it when I'm like uh oh wait I'm in crisis mode. Okay here's what we're going to do you know so I can get I can ground myself but I'm not one of these like I regularly uh you know meditate and I regularly that's what I mean by I'm not good at it, >> right? >> I find that that that type of thing is very helpful. Um, something else that I've really really come to appreciate um through my own work over the last uh I would say seven years um has been IFS. >> IFS internal family systems um guy named Schwarz actually. >> I find IFS to be incredible. >> Yeah, >> I went uh last summer. Every year I go by myself for like two or three days. I go on either a canoe trip or uh or hiking by myself for a couple couple days. >> By yourself? >> By myself? Yeah. >> Oh wow. >> And it's just in the wilderness. There's no phone cell phone reception and it's just a few days by myself. >> Maybe I'm better at this than I than I than I thought because I don't think a lot of people do this. >> But um >> and one of my and it was probably if you asked me like what was my best day of the year last year, it was probably that day. >> Wow. Not because I was alone by myself, although I love being alone by myself. I can I can be with myself for a very long time. Uh scarily. Um but I it was that I had done a couple of IFS sessions on my own. Just sat there for about an hour each day, >> right? >> And it is so profound. Wow. >> And so in it was so uplifting. So much so that I had gone for 3 days and after two days I had like two really great sessions just by myself and >> that's >> I went home early. >> Some people go crazy in their own brain. >> Yeah. >> But but uh [laughter] >> I went home early I felt so I felt like in such a high >> Yeah. >> Um >> Yeah. IFS if if people don't know what that is, they should look into it. I think it's amazing. I actually think it's it's it's it's like what's going on inside of you all the time and we're just like not aware of it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And also that the the initial part of IFS I thought was was helpful uh for me was even if I don't get to the point of dialoguing with you know what what's going on inside myself at a particular time but being able to just access I find that to be uh to be like profoundly helpful. So, you know, whereas a person goes through through their day and they're like feeling super anxious about something, they don't even they don't even know what what to do with that. They they don't know what to do with the fact I'm feeling so anxious. I'm feeling anxious. So, so what Okay, maybe I'll go for a run. >> Um maybe I'm going to eat. Maybe I'll drink. Maybe I'm going to watch something, you know, mind numbum in some way, right? They're feeling anxious. And what I found amazing about IFS was the idea of first obviously breathing and slowing your mind and then being able to um sort of scan your body top to top to bottom and and get in touch with yourself physically but then also become aware of your emotionally what's going on and then leaning into you know completely focusing and breathing into whatever is that's happening. >> Just the embodiment of your body and >> the awareness. Yeah. the awareness and the and the acknowledgement and the uh noticing and accepting and leaning into whatever you're feeling >> experience. >> Yeah. >> Wow. >> To me that's incredible, >> right? That is something that's much easier to access than the inner dialogues and that's something is much harder to get to. >> Yeah. And but and you know what but even if a person just did that >> Yeah. You knowing I think it's amazing. Yeah. And then support, you know, it's good to have like uh, you know, there were times when I felt like, you know, it' be really good to work this through with a therapist and get a good therapist and like work something through. Then there's times you just like have a good friend, you know, like somebody can speak out. And empathy is so powerful because it goes back to what we were talking before about not being alone. >> Yeah. >> If you have somebody who uh people don't like to be empathetic because it requires them to sit in a place of an emotion they may not be comfortable with. Uh Bnee BR Brown has a great clip about empathy. Uh it's not it's part of a longer talk that she did, but someone turned it someone sort of cartoonized it. You know, it's it it demonstrates what empathy requires. It requires someone to actually go into the emotional space that the other person's in. And part of why we don't want to do that is because that's uncomfortable. You're, you know, you're feeling really, really, I don't know, scared about something. For me to to be like, you know, to sort of step far away and go, "Oh, wow. That really stinks. Well, good luck. You know, it's easy to me to do that. >> For me to really like tap into what does that mean? That must that must like what does that I'm trying to imagine what that really means to feel what you're feeling. I can imagine that's actually very scary if you feel like you're going to go broke or going to go bankrupt or going to be attacked or going to get divorced or what like and you actually start getting into that place yourself. That's empathy. That's why people don't like to do it because it it requires you to go somewhere you don't want to go. >> Go inside of yourself deeply. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's what we're most afraid of doing as people. >> Yeah. >> Is really experiencing ourselves in a deeper way. >> Yeah. And that is what empathy requires. But the nice thing is you ask about when you're going through a hard time, the nice thing is if you can reach out to someone who's good at being empathetic. >> Yeah. >> It's incredible. That's the that's the uh that's what we were talking about not being alone. >> Yeah. I think this point that's come up throughout our conversation is that there is a point of when you're alone and and it's not your fault and that is true. At the same time, you can help yourself to not be alone. You can reach out to people. You can create friendships. You can create find supports. There's people who want to help. There's people there's a bunch of more just good people who just want to help you. And if you would reach out, you would have more support and you'd be less alone. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And and I and and I think your point about reaching out to the right people is important. If you're going to reach out to the person who be like, >> you know, you're going to reach out and say, "Oh my gosh, I'm really I feel like I'm going to get divorced. I'm having such a hard time." And the person's going to be like, "Hey, well, at least you're married." >> Yeah. >> You know, >> well, that that doesn't help me, you know. But you call that person who's going to be like, "Wow, I can't imagine what that's like. I'm so sorry you're going through that. I you know, I'm here for you. I'm with you. I don't know what to say. Like, I you know, but I I can imagine how scared you must be right now." Like, that's empathy. Yeah. >> Yeah. That makes a person not feel alone which is so powerful. >> Yeah. We're speaking about people showing up to themselves and then self-numbing like we all do self-noming. I think every single human being in the world whether they're aware of it or not whether it's eating whatever food they like or their phones or it could be anything. >> Yeah. anything that that calms down what's going on inside and not instead of doing some actual self soothing and actual like listening to what's going on inside of you and what is the problem you know our body's telling us something what's happening what's going wrong um yeah that self-awareness to do that it's such a challenge do you have any advice for people how they could at such moments connect more them to themselves instead of going to that numbing whatever sort even though it's not talking about somebody's doing something terrible we're talking about regular people you know just not destroying their lives just numbing but it be so much more healthy if they turned inwards and they were self-aware the the first thing is you know I think when people are at a point where they're they're ready to turn to something to uh as you call it uh self-numb That's usually like a a crisis mode already. I don't know or maybe crisis is not the word, but it's like they're already in like panic mode. They're in stress mode. >> Right. >> Right. So, you know, they had a long they had a long day and you know, this happened and that happened and then something at work and there's a major issue in the community and so and so then called them and then you know one thing after the next at that point like okay I just I need to drink or I need to eat or I need to watch this or I need to whatever I >> whatever self soothing you know thing that they might look towards which may be an unhealthy habit to to talk about to do or not to do is like almost an irrelevant question. What perhaps is attainable is before we get to what am I going to do next like five minutes of breathing, >> right? >> Because your mind's not thinking clear, your heart's racing, your palms are sweating, your breathing is quick, you're >> you're just not grounded enough to make any kind of direction change. Right now you're hitting on the direction of I need to I need to do something to like just not feel what I'm feeling right now >> and it's probably going to be an unhealthy habit. >> Yeah. >> Right. So like like for so I need to like slow the train a little bit because right now I'm heading like full speed ahead to wherever >> we're not even conscious of it. Most of the time we go to these numbing things. We're just like yeah I'm just in the mood of that. I'm just in the mood of doing we don't think about it. >> Right. >> Doesn't even come up consciously. >> Yeah. And so I I think I think and you used the term before about listening to your body. You know, it's it sounds so like uh I don't know, new age. Yeah, new age. But it's like it's like it's just godless. Like made it like there are people who have real real uh uh diseases where they don't have uh uh feeling in their fingers. You know what I mean? That's a dangerous disease where they have no feeling in their palms or whatever. Why? Because they could be leaning on the on a stove top and not even realize, right? So they have no you know the fact that we the fact that we have uh senses in in our whole body we know this is a from made it that like we we're aware when something's hurting or something otherwise we would you know die from it. Oh I didn't realize I was bleeding out all this time you know >> and it's the same thing emotionally. >> Yeah the same thing emotionally makes it that I'm feeling anxiety in my chest or I'm feeling or I'm feeling my heart racing or I'm feeling choked up in my throat or I'm feeling super tense in my shoulders. All of these things are just like, you know, Hashem's way of when there's something wrong where either I'm feeling scared or I'm feeling sad or I'm feeling angry. Hashem makes it that all those that it manifests somewhere in my body and I like to look at it like a like an alarm clock. >> It tells you you need something. >> Yeah. And and >> you need to turn inwards. You need to take care of yourself, >> right? And what we're supposed to do is be like, "Okay, well, hey, let me look at that clock. What's going on? What's that alarm about?" Instead, what we do is we're like, "Okay, um, let me turn the volume on higher on my, you know, and yeah, exactly. [laughter] Let me like watch something, listen to, you know, if I can chew louder than I can feel this, you know, then that that'll be good. I won't you won't be bothered as much." >> We ignore the alarms that are telling us turn inwards, see what's bothering you. >> Right. >> Maybe reach out to a friend, a family member, maybe a therapist. >> Right. Right. Right. And again, before they even what to do, there's just like can can you just at least figure out, you know, what why why is this alarm going on? What's what's what's this about? What's your what's your body trying to keep you what's your mind trying to keep you uh uh safe from or protected from or do you know what I mean? Like what do you what are you concerned about? And like >> that's like the place to go, you know? That's >> Yeah. Yeah. The one part of what you said actually the the breathing part it's interesting because today it actually calms me down. For a while it made me more anxious. It's interesting. Yeah. It's interesting how like different people react to different things. Today it actually helps me but for a while made me like if I was anxious and I started breathing for some reason it made me more anxious. I don't know why. Just interesting. >> That is interesting. >> Yeah. I was working with my brother-in-law's a coach in in Israel uh therapist and anyway but he so you know he was he was walking me through this sort of um s I don't know if it was sematic experiencing or whatever it was but getting in touch with what I was feeling and I was feeling anxious and he's like okay so just sit with that >> right >> and I remember feeling like I am going to die >> what what just sit with it sit with it yeah sit with it oh my gosh sit with it if I sit with it like I'm going explode or something terrible happen and you realize after a while like oh it goes away so interesting. >> Yeah that's very powerful >> you build me afterwards. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Do you feel this is a controversial question but do you feel everybody would benefit from going to therapy? You know people say therapy is for people who struggle then some people say no everybody would benefit from going to therapy at some point. What are your feelings about that? I'm subjective, but I think the answer is yes. Everybody would benefit from therapist. If it's a good therapist, a bad therapist is that's bad. But a if it's a good therapist, I think so. >> Yeah. You think everybody could benefit and build self-awareness, build understanding of yourself, build presence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. There's nothing to lose if it's a good therapist. >> A little bit of money maybe. >> Yeah. A little [laughter] bit. >> A lot of money. But uh The reality is everybody has like midos challenges. Everyone has midos issues. So if you're somebody who gets angry in case I don't need a therapist ju but just like just explore that why >> right >> you let's say a person yells they're good person you know they I don't have mental illness but they find themselves like yelling at their kids a lot or yelling at whatever. >> Does that need a therapist? Not necessarily. But your to your question of like does can everyone benefit from it? If that person would sit and and and you know do some CBT work, you know, or just like so what's going on there? Why is it that like I yell at my kids, you know, >> most likely it probably has something to do with their childhood, something to do with that home they were raised with, how they were sort of trained, you know, to react when things happen. >> And that could be re that could be like revisited and reprogrammed, you know, like, you know, for >> anger is a really common one because anger is like a self-numbing tool almost. It's like we don't want to feel our emotions. We can use anger as a way of like self-protecting, you know, it's a it's a secondary emotion that we can use when we don't want to feel what's going on. It's easier. We feel more powerful when we're angry. And >> yeah, I >> it feels protective. >> I I think I heard this from uh my rebby. I don't remember. Anger is the most primitive form of sadness. Most primitive expression of sadness. >> Wow. >> Anger is the most primitive expression of sadness. And it makes so much sense. >> Yeah. >> When I'm angry at you, and I find this with men, adults, uh, especially kids too, but, um, if they're angry, I'm so angry. I'm so angry. What they really mean usually is, I feel so sad. >> Wow. >> I feel so hurt. >> Wow. >> But they can't say that. >> Wow. >> And I have this with balabatum. I have this with people where they're they're so angry. They're so angry. And I'm I'm able to tolerate and to hold space for whatever it is that they have to say, >> right? >> Because I recognize that >> there's hurt there. >> Yeah. But they're they're not, you know, when they come and be like, "Rabbi, I'm going to tell you, you know, how you're running this jewel is, you know, and you don't know what you're doing." You know, like, thank God I don't really get a lot of that. But, you know, if I if I have that and I have had that, I'm able to hold space for it because I'm like, what you really mean is um I feel sad, Rabbi. And >> I wish you would just spend a little more time with me. You know, when he says, "You don't know how to run a shul because you're not there for the people and the people need." What he really means is I Rabbi, I would love a little more attention. I feel sad that I don't have that and I need I need a mother and a father. I need a you know what I mean? That's really what he's saying, but he can't say it. powerful to look at people that way and to look at the people because when people yell at us, we react so we're so offended instead of reacting like this person's attacking me. Wow, what's going on? I can I can show up and be have some compassion for this person. This person's just sad. Person's hurt. They're in pain. >> Yeah. >> Okay. Um if you could give a message to the Toronto community or to the community at large about mental health, what would it be? If you could say one thing that people should hear about mental health, emotional well-being, what would that be? You could shout it from the rooftops and make sure everybody hears it and everybody takes this in. We have to make it not taboo. Yeah, >> it can't be taboo. >> We have to have this. We have to it has to be regular. >> Yeah, we have to we have to be able we have to talk about stuff. Um it can't be taboo. There's physical health. We're not afraid to say it. >> Yeah, >> the brain is is just another part of the body. Like every single part of our body that can get sick, >> every part of our body that sometimes is stronger, sometimes weaker, you have a pain in your foot or you know an infection in your eye, the the mind is no different. And we have to we have to stop all the judgment and it we we've got to talk about stuff more. >> Well, >> because the reality is, as I said bunch of times, everyone's got something. Yeah, >> everyone. >> Yeah. >> A personality disorder, a this, a that, a trauma >> and everybody. And if we just, you know, >> so we could be more supportive, we could be, we could help each other, we can stop judging each other. We can, you know, look at it through the perspective like my wife said, right? Like, >> great. So, now you know what they have. This is great. Now, you know, now is it being manageable? Fantastic. You know, to me, like I'm not going to get up on, you know, you know, I I speak on tour anytime now for a couple years and uh there's hundreds of thousands of views and you know, hundreds of people that listen listen every single week. Oh, >> wow. >> And I'm not just going to, >> you know, get up there and just, you know, let me just tell you all my problems and all the things that are wrong with me. I'm not going to do that. >> But I do allude to stuff and like I have my my fair share of challenges. like I have stuff uh but I'm not afraid to say it, >> you know, and I I feel like it's part of why I can relate to other people who are going through challenges. >> Um and and I think it's >> right. You have stuff and you're willing to show up to it and you're willing to be aware of it. >> You're willing to to own it and not be embarrassed of it. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> That's the powerful thing. >> Yeah. It's it's not a bad thing. >> Yeah. It's I think it's a part of you know >> I don't know I can go on and on about this but >> yeah no it's very powerful >> but like I said with that story when the guy's like well they come from a broken home you know broken broken [laughter] home >> the couple ended up getting married by the way. Yeah. And when we asked them so what was the turning point they said you know the guy the wife told my wife you know when your husband said he comes from a broken home we realized if he his parents are divorced and he turned out okay so maybe this should not such a bad idea again I'm not saying you oh every divorced person but >> like you know fact that everyone has stuff it's just a question of like are we taking responsibility like said you know abalas are we you know >> are we showing up to it >> are we showing up to our tough. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And and and uh so I think that's the message that I that I would shout from the rooftops. It would be like we got to talk about it. >> We got to talk about it. >> No more no more. >> This is what we did today. >> That's what we did today. There you go. So we're doing it. >> We're doing [laughter] >> You're doing it. >> Yeah. >> Thank you so much for coming on. It's really pleasure to talk to you. >> My pleasure.