The Mun: What was it really? with Rabbi Yehoshua Weber

It's so stormy outside. So, um to you. So, I want to build on an idea we've been discussing off and on, and I think we can use this week's par as a prototype. Um um we be actually Mr. Matlin and I began discussing it this earlier this week, but we're going to build on that. Yes, um when do you read stories literally and when do you not read them literally? Okay, there are fantastic stories. Midashic stories. >> Um, no, this is actually more comfortable. Yeah, because that Yeah. Um, stories biblical narratives certainly madrashic stories. When do you opt for the metaphor and when do you read them literally? Um, and so some are actually Torah stories that the madrash expand. We're going to talk about in this week's par we have discussions about the mun. This leads us back to the lengthy discussions pack and paral about the man where it's painted as something fantastic. What was it? Was it this miraculous bread that came from B with all these divine powers? Was it something a little bit more prosaic? What was it? So, what I'd like to do is start not with the man, but there's a companion. There's a group of things that are all grouped together in our we talk about how we suffered and and and we were hungry but then was there for us provided man and it seems that provided that in a miraculous way and in addition to providing money in a miraculous way there was also clothing that was um um superb the traveling was superb your garment. A similar is not now in modern Hebrew. It's a dress. It means your garment both male male and female, right? >> Talking about the one the white ones from the time or >> well well simil your garment. So that we're going to discuss your garment didn't wear out. What does that mean? Your um I'm pleased you I was really I really thought no one would show. I mean I felt I have to um your um your your your foot didn't swell up. So it really sounds like took care of us in miraculous ways. Gave us miraculous food, miraculous clothing. Uh Makadesh took care of our our bodies. Even though normally people's feet would be harmed by such a long distance walking, none of this happened. Rashi says that Rashi paints it all as miraculous and Rashi again Rashi is not Rashi verbatim. Rashi always quotes Madrashim. I reiterate I believe I've said this a few times. It's not my idea. Um I I had um big was a professor at at Rebel May or he would come from he who was normally at the techn and he points out clearly you don't know what the real Rashi thinks. Rashi quotes madrashim and the madrashim are madrashim that everyone else knows and that everyone respects and takes seriously. So you don't know what rashi really thinks but rashi quotes madrashim here he quotes right. So, how did a garment last for 40 years straight, right? So, the um the clouds would um would wash their clothes and they would iron them. He'd look wonderful like like iron garments. And not only that, well, if a person was a child when he left and he was wearing a garment, no problem. The name the garment grew with him. So it was really miraculous right but Rashi is simply quoting um Absar of Kahana verbatim not verbatim not word for word because the language is a little different but rebel here of khana it's it's it's Aramaic from it's a little different you should know different than the Aramaic from babble and tal babley um re laser right they didn't you know in in the babalon Aramaic there's always like an alf at the beginning a lot of the alves fall laserous laser but it's lots of words that you know People begin like you know in English sometimes people just say or so in Aramaic they would be an alt extra alf. So what is this? What kind of garments are these? Middle of second line leather garments that last so long they all the garments no third line there were clouds that would here it doesn't say the clouds um washed them. It says the clouds um covered them. But same basic idea and then also what about the children? Same thing end of the kal you should know it impacts on what the is a snail and as the kilaz grows a shell grows with it so to the garment so to um so the a so that's that's the medish now the Ibanzra um um and I learned it just this week um this morning Ibanzra quotes this and Ibanzra I I think people weren't so passionate about that because it was all good Ibanz says okay could be it was a miracle look at Ibanzra 3 not a sign. He's probably say they left Egypt with lots of garments, right? Because they desoiled Egypt. The Egyptians panicked. They gave them everything. So if you left with 500 garments, you had enough garments to last in the desert. So there was no miracle. It just you had lots of garments. So last how >> you didn't run out of garments. >> You had plenty of garments. >> So why did Hashem saying this? So that I gave you riches. You left Egypt with so much either that I took care of you in the desert. >> Anywhere else the text that says you left. We know that they left with stuff. >> Yeah, it says um it the P clearly alludes to um that they left with great wealth. >> But Hashem doesn't quote back when he say I took care of you by leaving. >> Um so here we I think here it here it does. Yeah, here it does. But I think there are Yeah. Um >> it does say siblings back then. Jesus. >> Yeah. That Hashem said, "Well, >> and that they were white." >> It's the first, right? >> I can also say it's like an answer. Right. This this is dayto-day. You left the fact you left the jewelry and diamonds and silver and gold. That was great. >> Like I gave you d >> right. Right. I think we have to remember also it's so interesting to us garments even an expensive dress or a suit how expensive is it? So I didn't know when I came to Muny I realized it can be very expensive. >> No, no, there's a lot of >> It wasn't like that. that there was but that was separate at the middle and so I know I know my world right so Toronto there's also girum it's true but I think people spend more here I think they spend more here I think so I think so um I I I just know I'm I'm buying the same suits for 40 30 years from the same supplier in Toronto who sends me four suits at a time I don't even want to tell you what I pay a suit but it's a little bit of a joke um >> year he sent you >> well he's misspel from way back when >> you're Still >> what? >> He supervises six now. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And same shoe guy and same tie guy. There's um um I pay but just very minimal. Um um but why am I pointing this out? Um that's a complete digression. It's it's like a non-issue. Izza says maybe it was miraculous, maybe it wasn't. You could be the pos. I don't think he was having sleepless nights over this. And he's not arguing on the medish, right? Even would not argue on Raf Kahana. The med says it it it's just colorful. You know, you want to inspire you want to inspire people. You get up until you give a dasha, right? I said drushes with stories. You've all heard stories about of course the story never happened. It's about flying in the sky and but but it's inspiring. Um it's actually the Ramban who takes it a little bit personally because that's the Ramban's that's that's the Ramban. The Ramban is very concerned about people not taking miracles liberally because who knows what it's going to happen. It's going to It'll lead bad places but but Debzra and he quotes Rashi's idea as a possibility also either o or lots of garments and he says the same thing Rashi seems to portray as miraculous says maybe yeah maybe no look at um look at the three um they travel slowly so nothing happened to their feet it's just you know very very cavalier okay so we see this about the garments we see this about Ragua. We don't see this about the man. When it comes to the man, the imminz goes out of his way to say this was miraculous also. Now, how miraculous? We're going to have a very interesting discussion. I'm going to share one of my favorite commentaries who almost never study, but I'm going to start more cuz he's more available. Um there was a RV in um Florence in the late 20th late 19th century, early 20th century. He ended up also he was he was the rabbi of Florence but he was also a professor at the university there. He had a doctorate in Semitic languages called Berto Kasut. Um he he got out in time in 1939 because he lost his position at the university. He ended up becoming a very important figure in Hebrew University from Nebak some of his children. His son remained in Italy and his son died there. Um he was great. Um, and you know, in a way, Italy, the Italy and Germany were going through something similar, right? Lots of Jews in Germany became secular and the Orthodox there fought against them. Italy was much more easygoing. I think the whole climate there, you didn't have the splits. He defended Orthodoxy, but in a much less um confrontational way, different than Hersh. Hirs was very confrontational. I mean, maybe the cultures were different. Great man. His name isn't known at all. It's very interesting. And I I I made a mistake. I'm putting out in a few months I'll I'll share it with members. I'm putting out a little book. You do it when when you're rabbi at my age. And in one article I quote him. So I quote Alberto Kasut. Um the publisher >> Elberto was his first name. Casuto. Anyone who used him calls him Kasuto, but the publisher couldn't wrap their head around the idea that I was quoting Rashi and Kasut. So I think they made it Rabbi Kasuto. So forgive me. That's um but Kasuto is is what he's called. So he's very his whole point is to make to show how true the Torah is. Um and he talks about them on also. He also says it's miraculous but it's very interesting how he emphasizes the miracles that are in the but it cuts down some of the other miracles. But I want to travel to the mun now. Um we saw Rashi and arguing about the garments. We saw Rashi and Izzar arguing about the um you know the feet being swollen. But when it comes to the man, the Ibanzra quotes a karite. The Ibanzra does that all the time. And that itself is so interesting. Think about a contemporary right, right? Um, one of a contemporary Rav writing aid for sure. Lith also, they're not much different. Though the lifish are not more easygoing about this than the if anything, sometimes the more are very very strong. They're not going to quote a kite. There's no discussion. They're not going to quote a Catholic theologian. That's just not what you do. He quotes carites all the time. Sometimes he actually, you know, says, "Oh, that's a good idea." Some more often than not, he he's very opposed to what they say. Here he quotes a car who says the man wasn't really a miracle. But he he's the karite says that when you travel through the Sina desert there um there's um insects that maybe fly in the air. They pull pollen from the cacti from the flowers and they deposit it on the flowers and there's a buildup of sweet stuff on on the cacti and the flowers and this is what the one is referring to. Now the truth is it's it's a less crazy idea than you think because quotes is karite kasut quotes it indeed there is a substance that the bedawin in the sina desert called man that um that um the nomads in the Iraqi deserts called man where there's some type of pollen that insects of some sort collect and and they deposit it right bees you know pull pollen and it creates It's like a sweet coating on cacti and better collects them. >> Describes it as like wheat and honey, bread and honey, green. >> So it it sounds just like that. So he quotes the karite and he says, "God forbid to say that, right? How could you say this?" Now the does sometimes quote kites respectfully, but here he's so strong. Now why is he so strong? The is comfortable saying other things aren't such open miracles. who made the macos but other things when the miracle isn't clear in the pics that is um that you had many garments no no um so um so why does the do that so I I'd like to go there in a minute but I want you to see the isra's language okay look at thezra um three okay I'm sorry um we is the five okay but before we see the five I want you to see rashi on the I chose a few rashis. Um the rash rashi on the month back in bashalak this is when the man is introduced um waxes beautifully about just how miraculous it was. So look at a few rashis hammed. What does hamarame mean? Shashi says they collected the man but even if you tried to collect a lot of money it didn't work. If you try to collect a little bit of money it seems like it also didn't work. Everyone got the right magic amount the share that that they were supposed to get. Um, look at when they measured it, they had the exact amount they were supposed to have, which is clearly very miraculous, right? You collected more, it disintegrated. You collected less, it it it expanded magically. Um, you would think that eventually people stop, you know, stop collecting just a little. Why slept at home? But any which way that's and then the sun came out and I would translate according to Rashi it liquefied um it liquefied. You'll soon see different um translations. Second, the the mud that remained in the field um liquefied and it became rivers and the animals would drink from the mud and the non-Jews would capture these animals naturally. They would taste but it's you know really powerful and they would realize how great colleagues were almost that they had this food. It's really um >> what happened got a hold of the mom. >> I don't I don't I don't know. I don't know. But that's but it's really quite extraordinary and and and and when it came to um Shabas, they found a double portion at the door. Now what's interesting is that even though the Israel is not as prone to reading things miraculously, he doesn't quote all of Rashi's exceptional miracles. Rash is quoting Madrashim, but he does say this um kite quotes it as being a normal desert substance. Um five of let his name be cursed. It's like this that was the name of this right in Persians have it. This must be a common food stuff in the Middle East where um they're insects that collect this pollen and and and they leave it as a coating on animals. because all these miracles because first of all he says it doesn't come in. Now, the truth is Cassudo says it does. Um um um and but I know the area. And then he says, you know, the substance that we know only comes in the spring and fall, doesn't come all year. And then he says um if you put it in the sun, it's not going to um it's not going to liquefy. And the tells you double fell on Friday. None fell on Shabas. None of this is true for this this um this pollen. Okay. Um all of us. So therefore um um his name should be blotted out. What he's saying is not true. So here he takes traditional approach. Why does the even Israel do that? Even Israel does that because no one dismisses the idea that a kadesh can make miracles happen. If you don't believe that God can make miracles happen, you really don't believe in God. Right? Believing in God means that God is can do what wants. So if a wants miracles to happen, God is broken and make them happen. The Torah is explicit in telling you makos creus yams harinai involve miracles. The Torah is explicit in telling you that man involve miracles. It's not by Slav. By Slav the miracles are not explicit. By man it is. And because we discussed this a few weeks ago Brett you raises with Slav there. Um it's not and and look at the language. Um here the language is explicit that it's miraculous. Well then why why would you take away the miracles when it comes to says it happened in a miraculous way. Look at the okay fine again um the um again this in our par it's developed but in par is where it's introduced so okay you will see this is about the man and when we talk about the man we talk about the greatness of they were getting both and the umlav came in the evening but when is the greatness of only in the morning. The greatness of God was only the morning because the SLO may very well have been something natural. I presented that a few weeks ago. It reads perfectly. This um birds do migrate through the Sina desert. It was a natural and the and the Torah doesn't present it as something miraculous. The Torah explicitly presents the as as something and and then and then the goes and tells you um explicitly that um there was a double portion Friday. We'll soon see that's not so simple because um um Kasut reads that in a more prosaic way. The Pekk seems to tell you explicitly that it did not fall on Shabas. That seems explicit. And then the Pik tells you that it rotted during the week but in Shabas it did not rot. These all seem to be miracles. Okay. Um so look at this. Okay. Um okay. Um look at all the other days. Friday night did not. So here they do seem to be statements about it being miraculous. And then there's this idea that we took the man and we placed it in storage forever in its inenis in a in a in a bak book in a bottle inside the kadesh because we don't do that for this love. So the man is portrayed as something miraculous. So the says I believe in a as much as rashi everyone believes in the question is just how do you teach a um rashi no quotes these midrashim I don't know what rash is really thinking um I don't um the raan says it's better to read these midrashim literally the raan is very afraid for moving away from litis. He thinks it's not good for the community to be taught to move away from literalism. Even if it says, "I'm okay with it." Could go both ways. Literal not. Okay. Um but you can read something metaphorically. When the Torah lends itself when the Torah tells you was saying, "I'm doing this to create a sign and a miracle that changed then you can't read it metaphorically because the Torah is telling you this was meant to be a statement about an you see it by democracy, you see it by you see, you see it by man. So um the karite is disputing the basic foundation of the Torah. Because of that thera says this must be taken literally. But what is literally mean? How how literally these madrashim about mun being so fantastic like based with the idea I didn't bring down the sources I should have because there were so many sources that the mun had every flavor u that you can possibly have besides you know certain flavors that were dangerous for pregnant woman. Pastic doesn't say that. is special to us flavor. >> The Pik actually seems to say there was a flavor and the Pik talks about two flavors. It talks about two flavors. So the Rajbam says you can have it in two varieties. You could have it raw or you could process it and bake it and then it would taste. So the Rajam seems to say it had those two flavors and those two flavors only. We saw that during the week. Um most don't even quote the idea of the many flavors. would probably read that medish literally others would not but that's but that's not in the Pik um Rashi's idea that again he quotes the medish that the animals would eat it and the non would catch the animals and they would taste the flavor of the mun you know when I eat an you know when I eat meat do I necessarily taste the flavor of the food that the animal ate right so maybe yes maybe no so kasuto and you should know his his his writings are available at safaria >> just saying the wagu um beef There's certain wagu coo I think from the city coo in Japan. Whatever they feeding it with the >> very expensive meat. >> Yeah. Yeah. They're feeding it with the beer. They're drinking beer and some grain certain grains and olives >> and it tastes better. >> So yeah, you can literally taste the meat the difference. Yeah. >> Okay. No. So you're right species as part of it too. >> Right. Right. Right. No. So could be could be could. Yeah. So could be. I'm not could be for sure. I'm just like I I don't know. So Kasuto who is again his whole approach and it was a very convivial approach. You know sometimes you want to sort of step back in history and see what life is like in different communities. It was convivial. Germany there were different sections of Germany. Could be the Germans are stronger people. It's colder. Um it's more right >> culture. >> It's a more of a harsh culture. So it was confrontational like Shafal Hersh was you know you know there was oust right. He didn't sit together with the reform um rabbis. He had nothing to do with them. They weren't rabbis to him, which they weren't, you know. So, it was um and it wasn't that way in Italy. It was much more convivial. So, but in his writing, he's trying to prove the truth of the Torah. So, I wrote down, you know, the whole piece actually I mean the whole piece, it's a long piece available at Safaria. You should know um Safaria chose um Sparum that how many SP do they have? So, I'm really surprised they chose Kasut, but it was a very very good choice. So just to know where he's coming from in this piece about the Mun he's he's you know countering biblical critics who said um it's it's not you know it's it's out of style it's not what you know our kids aren't challenged by this but in the 19th century people were right you know when people began questioning religion they questioned everything and the theory that was very popular then wellhousen was that the Torah was not written by one author but there were lots of different people in different periods who wrote different documents that were then brought together JPD does and and and one of the prime stories is the story of the Mun and the Slav. It's all like bunched together, >> right? >> You know, within this piece, he says it's clearly not true. Look at the language of the story. It was written by one author. So, he's trying to win back that element. And you should know there was such a strong representation at Hebrew University when it started of people like this who accomplished so much. And you should know these people had So here Kasuto um points out um that um all of this is all written by one and he says look at the story. The story is telling you there's something miraculous about it. Um so this clearly was a miracle but he does something very clever and he does what um what the Barbaranel does what other isum do. Um let's talk about creasams. Let's digress a little bit. What does the puzzle tell us about ka yams? And it's something that I say this all my time to my kids. Once you notice it, you can't stop noticing it. How did ka yams happen? >> When the wind wind blew all night long, why is blowing the wind all night long? Wants to split the yams. Why blow have a wind blow all night long? >> Hashm does miracles. He uses the tea toku wants >> us in a second. >> That's actually one of the arguments in the story that it wasn't a miracle. That's what happens. It's it's it's a it's a season. It's a hurricane and the winds blow. >> Right. But right. So, so but it happened exactly then when the Jews went and the Egyptians didn't. So, so the Torah is saying that wanted it to happen this way and theel develops a similar. I think I shared it with you by do whatever wants because who created such a perfect tea wants you to respect that the this ever come up here this this interesting line by the makos did we ever share the approach to the macos he says look at the what >> the frogs >> um so not the frogs crocodiles just the flow of the maca the whole >> no no so that's another idea that's a >> well I'm just the on the timing of the day like Columbus, right? He got to Cuba, I think they wanted to trade with him, right? And he was like, he knew that there are whatever the heck. >> So he predicted it and told him if you're not going to trade with me and that night, it'll be like So >> yeah, he predicted that to predict it in order to fool them. Yeah. >> Right. So um let's come let's go. Let's talk about the flow of the makos. What was the first maka? >> What happens if a river turns bloody and what will happen to all the wildlife in the river? >> It will die. >> They'll all die. So, but the ones who want to survive, the fish will die because they can't um survive. U but what will happen to the frogs? They're amphibians. They can they'll jump out of the but will happen if they don't have room to go back to. Amphibians can leave the river for a little bit, but they have to go back. They need water. Dry out. >> They'll and they'll die. And then what will happen to the carcasses? >> And what will happen as the carcasses continue decaying? There'll be bugs. But as there are lots of carcasses, the frogs, the alligators, lice, but even larger animals, carnivores will come and eat them, >> right? >> So what does theel say? What's the seder? Dam maybe dam is actually algae. Um something that turn the river red. The river sick. Straa jump out of the river. They attract kenum. And once they attract kenum there's going to be wild animals there's going to be diseases because they spread it all spreads. Now of course engineer this but chooses to work with tea. Now of course it's not the only approach and I'm not saying it's the right approach you say about you can study borrow. So, so the aban hell is very interesting. Um, you know, it's it's medieval science that the forces rise in the air and that caused bat and again you maybe you can't do it for everything but the ababel tries to make it work with nature. >> What about the approach? >> What >> about the approach? It has the approach right um the and that's to the abel that was born. Now some would view this as minimizing miracle the view it as as actually making tea even grander. You're not minimizing the miracle, you're making it greater. I mean I'm I don't you know no one is taking no one here is more of a M or less of a M because they take this approach but it's a general approach and actually the pukum seem the pukum by really convincing like why does the p tell you that the wind blew all night long everything in the p is there. Why is that important? Because the Torah want to tell you that's the way a kadesh works. A kadeshu works with nature. So Kosutu says I I see this um Ibanzra and the Ababel which I sent to you says the same. They quote these authorities not within our world who say it's all natural. Cassudu says you know what it's it's clearly a miracle because of Shabas because um it um on on Friday night it didn't um um it didn't um um become ruined. Other nights it did. But what the way a kadesh bar works is a kadeshbu works with the nature that's the air and make bills in it makes makes miracles out of it. So he says there is this man and the Arabs call it man. He said now Kasutu is contemporary. We're dealing with Kasutu died in 1951. He's it's 20th century. Um so the better still use this and they call it man but this isn't enough to feed such a large community. this this is not going to um you know deteriorate some nights and not deteriorate other nights. Um so there was something that a kadesh boru um expanded and made bigger. So he works with um the Ibanzra um for show with Rashi. But in terms of lots of the you know the other miracles, the really grander ones there he takes a little bit of a more prosaic a more pragmatic approach. He's not telling you to lock yourself into that you should know only people who are not so wise lock themselves intellectual corners because um what do you gain by doing that? You want something that is over that speaks to as many people. What's the point? Right? You know if you're in business, right? and you're selling something, you're not just going to sell to somebody who is 6'2 or to someone who wears green ties, you'll sell it to whoever wants to buy it. And if he doesn't and if he speaks French rather than English, you'll probably speak in French. You want what you sell to be, you know, appreciated by all. Why wouldn't you take the same approach to the Torah? This is not about reading it one way or the other way. It's not. Now, it is true sometimes I I make I may come across as being more passionate about one approach. I think that's because it today 2026 one approach is not being developed and the other is the literal approach is the one that's taught. The other approach is just not not being taught very much. And I think it's it's a bit of a shame because who says it's right? Who says it's wrong? It's there. It's developed and it's it's just another way of understanding Torah. It makes it richer and it might speak to some people. It to me it's very intriguing to some some of my kids are intrigued by it. Some of my kids are scared by it. Um um so look look at um look at um okay um four um okay okay let's go to the part that's relevant okay so first he quotes those who you know again his writing was early 20th century so you still had no one even talks about this wellhousen of the Indian separate authors no one talks about this. If you're concerned about kids who are, you know, off the derek, you're concerned about drugs, you're concerned about hedenism, you're concerned about inappropriate relationships, yeah, lots of things to be concerned about. No one's no one is concerned about kids who are so academic that they're busy with wellousing. That's not where the challenge is. Um, but in the early 20th century and late, this actually was a point of contention. This is something that people were busy with. Um so he says you know the language of the PK is is is clear that it's by one author but then just look how how rich his writing is. He says let's travel through end of the fourth lineas. We don't know what the wordpas is. It's not a common word but he says oo you don't know what it is in Hebrew but in in in ugarit he studied other simmitic languages. It's like kashifa uncover. So he's connecting to other Semitic languages to understand the word in Hebrew that we're not familiar with. It's something that wasn't covered. And then he says three lines below. This involves miracles. Um he it's modern Hebrew that he's writing in. Um so he says it it's based on natural events that are expanded. Skeletor gill it it departs from you know the normal tea just the way the um macros going to the environmental you'll have algae that will have frogs leave they will die and that will attract insects and but you know to have it in an exact pattern with motion for warning everything in advance is a miracle but it's it's sort of you know controlling te now if a kadesh chooses to aband totally can do that chooses to destroy the world in instant can do that too but that's just not the way a kadeshu runs the world and He brings proofs again creams is so so significant here because the Torah goes out of its way to tell you about the event that is probably most portrayed as a mace. If probably if there's an item that is most portrayed as a mace that um that that inspired people that people sing about it's creams and at that mace the Torah goes out of its way to tell you it happened within the context not to natural guiding nature but working with nature to some degree here too it changes a little bit from the standards okay and then he quotes a zoologologist Bowdenheimer also a German Jew also got out in time. Thank God. He traveled to the Sinai desert. So people, you know, they care. They traveled. He went to the Sinai Peninsula. Okay. Peninsula is half as island means a peninsula. Half an island. Okay. Continue the page. Um that there are there are types bugs um they they um they live on the trees. they pull um the um sugar the um sap um from the trees. They excrete it and it becomes little droplets. They become small white droplets or gold droplets that um um stay on the tree and then fall to the ground. And after the first few hours of the day the um they the if you don't take it in the morning the ants will take them. Okay. So he'll actually trans mass is not that um it it um liquefied it became disgusting because the the insects had had consumed it already. And then he you know so he works with nature but he says clearly changed nature. But then he says lots of the other pukim that can be read naturally. So you know what is Rashi's translation of the Pik Rashi tells you go back to for you you could have tried to collect 100 tons when you came home you had you know the amount you were supposed to have you collected just like you know Father's worth you came home you had um that's rash miraculously um he says of means everyone collected the same because they were told to collect so means people who would have wanted to collect more people who wanted to collect less We're told everyone should collect what they're supposed to collect and they follow their instructions. So he doesn't read everything like Rashi. No. No. He takes you know some of the miracles he you know he he doesn't bring into the story. Not that he's disputing the possibility. Now you'll tell me Rashi quotes the medish. Of course Rashi quotes the medish. But we just saw before Rashi also quotes the medish about the clothing growing with them and about the nubb um um washing them. What that medish is is inspirational. It's not the fact per se. Kasuta does the same. But even someone who as rational as him, who so rooted in the university world, um, and so modern in so many ways says you can't now read it miraculously because there are stories about this that are clearly miraculous. And look, we take the mun and we store it forever and it lasts forever. How does it last forever? There was no freeze drying inside of the arone. How could it be? It lasts forever because um there was something miraculous about it. So he takes this middle line and he carries this through the whole story. Um he um let's go. So the person who wanted to take more didn't because people respected Moshe and a person who really didn't want to take too much also listened to Mosha. He took the right amount. So he does make this more prosaic, more mundane, less miraculous. He doesn't read this the way Rashi and he does this in many many other stories as well. Okay. That um when they um when it when they left it overnight and it and it it it decomposed. Well, yes, it would. It was it was a sugar that was sitting outside at night and it would go bad. That's not necessarily miraculous. Um that it didn't become spoiled Friday night that that daddy is a miracle. So he takes this middle line. Okay. Continue. Okay. And then to G. He talks about Yamishi um the double portion. Now he also says doesn't mean you know again he takes a little bit more prosaic approach that a double portion fell at the door. He says people were told to collect a double portion so they collected more. That's how they that's how he reads it. So again >> they got home and they saw what it was only double. >> So that's not um um so but look at the language of the I think it reads into the this way. Okay. Um, okay. So, so that also clearly miraculous no miracle. Okay. Um, yes. I I didn't bring down the I think it could be, you know, I'll have to look at the PC. I think it could be read into the POS, but I'm just saying. So you see he's taking this middle approach and and and I and again what it it's what you know how you choose to looking to take the approach that it was natural because like before was natural gives you I gave the slo goes through and it tells you this >> because so I think a starting point this even by which is portrayed as the largest miracle the pus goes out of its way to tell you it it was a miracle but It worked to some degree within a natural construct. The wind blew all night. If the puss is doing is saying that's the way does things very wasn't >> right and here he says you know the fact of the matter is the terra calls it man the better would have a substance in the desert they call man. Well, what is it? >> I was trying to fit in the national syndrome. >> Maybe he's not opposed to reading things as miraculously as you want and nothing would upset him. But I think this is the this is the road less traveled, >> right? This is the road less traveled. And so it's the road less traveled. Let's develop it because it's the road less traveled. Um it may also be he views this as a commandment from because of was really significant because the Torah goes out of its way. Um and and if goes out of its way there perhaps elsewhere and then he also feels I can tell you what I feel. I feel that when you take all these madrashim and you move towards literal readings then you miss the point because that what does it tell you? Let's go back to right a little reading of is is that trillions of Jews died in Egypt, right? U one one version is you know one in 5,000 left. Five thou so trillions died. What do you learn from that? It's like more than the population that's ever been >> of the all of society and all died and were all buried, right? I'm just saying that's one just do the numbers, right? Because we were we were 15 million, right? Okay. And you I don't want to go into our numbers literally because that creates all sorts of Pandora with that, right? But we were 15 million, right? So we're 15 million times 5,000. It's billions. I think you move into the trillions. All died and buried. Could it be? Anything can happen, right? But it's not recorded in the Torah. It can't because you have a carrying capacity with that many people. >> I I I would stresses that I think where he brings down the mag that he tells him. So he says that all the kind of miracle that's not so prominent or it's not that's why the Torah is not like um >> so that would be an explanation. the is a little bit you know kesh is not is also a discussion within but I'm just saying if you read it with the old die till the old died but if you don't read the medish literally then what is this medish about it's a statement about the dangers of assimilation koshik might just be that a lot of Jews assimilate into Egyptian society over the 200 years like in America you know there are six million Jews today over the course of the last few hundred years in America could be we lost more than six million how many assimilated so um Yeah, I I don't know. But there were tremendous losses to assimilation. So then it would then there is a message and then there's something you can give a drush out of and something there's a lesson to learn. It's not a fact. So you know by moving towards literalism uh um and moving away from metaphor you lose something really valuable cuz suddenly you might be missing the the entire message and then you know you paint yourself into a corner and it's never good to paint yourself into a corner. It's you know you live now in my in your little packet. So you do business with people like you, you go to school with people like you. So we have this little block of time. We have the luxury. Will it continue this way forever more? I don't know. But um but if you can only communicate with people like yourselves, your community will have have long-term problems because there there are there are going to be moments when you have to communicate with others and you're not going to know how because uh so um I'm not telling you to take this approach. What I'm doing is sharing that there are two approaches. I I I'll agree that certainly there's one approach that I develop a lot partly because it's neglected. Partly because it intrigues me partly because I I I think I and I think it's my heart. Is it is it sort of the renegade within me wanting to go and say different than everyone else? That's part of the human condition. Maybe that's the motivation. I don't know. Um one never knows. Maybe here I am saying it publicly on day. Maybe. I don't know. One never knows what motivates them. And if someone tells you that they know what motivates them, stay far away because that means they for sure don't know what motivates them. I'm admitting it. Is that the motivation? Is it the motivation? Um that I I think our community would be so much richer if we'd be open to more ideas because you look at the papers now, there's no communications between the different sections. Forget from and not from between the different parts of the room world. There's no communications. It's just people don't talk to one another because they can't communicate. >> Except the shriners. >> What? >> Except the shriners. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So maybe this would help the communications. Maybe. Okay. Um