Thanksgiving: Celebrating With Turkey - Shiur by Rabbi Nachum Scheiner

Today is the holiday that's called Thanksgiving. Although one cannot imagine a fumid taking part in the holiday for example of Exmus that we understand is not just a secular holiday has to do with a des and there are many families that take part in thanksgiving to some extent more or less that take part of thanksgiving in today's year we're going to discuss twoas in the taking in thanksgiving. One is the taking part is it permissible and then in general eating turkey the shil about eating turkey in general not only today all around the whole year. So let's first start about the general shila eating turkey in general the Tory when the Tyra mentions the the kash of when it comes to the Tyra mentions goes through the the parro and it's also invi explains why do why does the Tory um list out the the which come out to be 24 why does the Tory say all of them so Rashi says it's from Gomorra and Rashi says that these are the 24 that are and thereub the ones that are which means anything besides the 24 which means there are more obviously these more eus to than Tomus. If not the Tyra would list out the toyus. Over here I have a list of different birds that are Torah which lists 30. It could be these even more but just to have someone who makes a mention of the birds 30 birds. So that's already more than the ones that Tyrus speaks about to these more than says that there are 24 and anything else is which means if you know which are the 24 that are any other bird that you find anything that's in the family is mutter to eat. The problem, however, is is that we don't exactly know which are the which are the 24 that areas. We just don't know. Of course, the Tyra says the names, but we don't know the names that the Tyra says. We don't know exactly which those 24 are. Therefore, we have to rely on what the Messiah is. And the actually says that he's also had to know based on what the says the 24 that are there are to know which are the that it's not a dyus there are other three sim also which we're not going to focus now on the sim but there are sim to know by the tyra says par the gives usim by the tyra doesn't give usim the tyra just says 24 besides those 24 everything else is tar but we can make a from those 24 everything else that's not a going to be and concludes over there in gimmel says I'll read the which means of which are You can only eat birds that have a mess. Any of the family that we have a which we know about that it's those you could eat any others even if they have the you can't eat them. That's the and says about this to rely and eat without a mess. So the question is the turkey bashus was discovered in America when Columbus disco discovered America in 1492 with discovering America he discovered the turkey and the reason it's called Turkey Haidu is because they thought it actually when he came to America he thought it was India and therefore they named it based on Haidu or even they thought that it was that he landed up in India so that's why they called it that name but alapon it was discovered at that time that's when they discovered the turkey so the question is how do we eat the turkey never not even for today any day of the year how do we eat the turkey theis know messiah was already discovered a couple hundred years ago which means that we didn't know before we didn't have this in the past and if we didn't have in the past no mira how could he eat these many yeuim could be these even more that I put together but these actually six answers to this how we could eat turkey and we'll go through one by one some are a little bit questionable but let's bring and discuss all of the the explanation ations how we eat Turkey even though he's no mirac brings it and the piss the the dark brings brings it as well the as we mentioned says that if there are you can rely on the sim so he says since we know the turkey has a sim it's not a durus and it has the other which means how it splits the fingers and the other speaks out. You can rely on the which really means technically not like the ra the ra says you have to rely on they say you know how we eat the turkey because the there are simonyic cautious on the turkey which really that's technically a little bit of a hard not such a clear answer because says you have to be you could only you have to have a messy so if you don't have misra technically you can't eat it. So really the bottom line over here would be is is that if the says you need miso, you shouldn't be able to eat the turkey. But that's the first answer. They say it has simonyim and since it has sim you can eat it. >> Oh very good. That's the second the second which technically that means that there is a ms but the secondh which is pointing out very good and it's da says this answer and he says like this since now right now if the sh is now could we eat it or not since people are eating it for many years already for hundreds of years he says to say that when they ate it they ate it so as if we have a messy oblives like we have a mess. The first terrorist really was is that you could rely on Tahara has sim which really means is without a mess. The nits says that it's considered we have a mess which is to some extent because technically we know what came without a messiah was discovered a few hundred years ago but the terus for us right now the question is tough and could we eat right now could we eat turkey the terist since are eating the turkey so me has a and you could eat it >> a combination No, the the messiah brings the and then the says that no you cannot and you have to have a messiah just to point out that in this second answer that now we have a mess has to be like he says they and which means then the relied not like the but all you have to understand from this second ter is that even though it started off so to speak call it says you have to rely since nowad it started off because now we have a we could eat it >> that's how it started How do you know that they starred in >> if the technically You're asking that then when they ate it, it could be >> that's fine. That's fine. Or he relied on him. Just a second. You're right. But says then to say that they ate for whatever is agreed. You're saying maybe that they thought or they thought it was a different you could rely on it. And just one second. In other words, just doing it that is considered that is considered a messy. It's still questionable again how they did it to begin in the beginning and we'll see if we're going to get clarification on that. Let's move on to the other Yeshua. Yes. >> Shraggy. >> So the truth is if >> let let's see the other Yeshua also. But you're right at this point. >> It's not completely out of the thing. It's not completely shruggy. It's not completely a madeup thing to say it was discovered in America. But let's move on to other tiruts and all see. It could be it was not. But the pastas was that it was and that's why they celebrate with Turkey because it's that because it was discovered in America. That's the pash through history. The third is what we saying. I'm sorry. >> Okay. Okay, we're going to get we're going to get to preach. So, we'll get to that in a minute. That's actually number six. We'll see in the years. Let's get to it. Slow one thing at a time. So, what we have over here either there was no they did no or now we have a next is not is a third terret. He says the reason why you can't rely on sim the main sim is that it's not a dyus. So he says if you have a bird and you look at it and you watch it and it's not Dyrus, it's very nice it wasn't Dyrus, but maybe in a few weeks it'll be Dyrus. You can't be for sure that it's not Dyus. You can't be positive about it. But he says, this is what he says. But since this turkey was ncadal in the houses of yeden laurav by the thousands by the tens of thousands and we see for many years that it's not relying on the sim in other words this says not to rely on sim is only because it's not foolproof why is it not foolproof because maybe it's tak not dyus but maybe it is dyus I'm sorry but if we see for so so many years and these chickens the turkeys and so many yiddisha is we could assume that it's not rel the dark brings this as well and he says that there actually is a messiah and we spoke before when was the turkey from which technically it's written that it was discovered in America the shuas may be the A chuva brings it that he says that he's a mess on the turkey in from ane India from Haidu he writes ane India haidu kabala from moer raenu that's what he writes he's a kabala on the turkey moenu and he says there was a question during the dus I don't know when but there was a question if takra is a good he says that and you could rely on their which means means he's taken exactly what I said. >> I'm not an Aarian. I don't I taco don't know, but I'm just saying the the Pashtis the Turkey we know was discovered. We'll see others that speak about it also in the years. We'll get to it in a minute. Pashtas was discovered when we came to America. You're right. He says that a taco was earlier and the taco is a and this is actually brought someone mentioned before about with they bring it was also they also bring this the is a mess the tak is a mess on Turkey we could eat turkey because he's a mess there's these others that want to say maybe it's a different yes but others want to say that this turkey is even mentioned in the braiml Springs in in that because that smells much more we have to move down and the say that this ed is indic which is the turkey. So technically seemingly when it's mentioned over there is already before so it has a pretty early mess this would be ish number four that is messy you could argue maybe that it's taka not the turkey but seemingly from there that if it is the turkey and the turkeys already mentioned early comes out that the it's way back the turkey and these takish is brought Klatskin which was the raven before Shapiro and he says a very big he says that any bird that it's not a new bird that we discover in other words it's part of a different family then you don't need a messy you don't need a messy you only need a messy if we'll discover a type of o that's a a new type of o it's not the same bird it just looks a little different only in such a case do you need a mess. If you find if it's something that's included, it's technically the same as a different one. You don't need a mess. You don't need a messy Turkey. Technically, we have you don't need a mess. Don't need a mess. Which really, this is a very big. There was a very big sh recently on the chicken in all the gumm were ding about The baracle the baracle chicken which technically is really a chicken like a different chicken. It looks a little different which pashas is really included in other family chickens that we have a misra on but that's the that's something that's included and what we have the msra you could eat it. So the turkey we could eat because it's included. It's like we have the messiah on that also. >> 60 years. A >> yeah came out against the sixth uh the sixth and final is brought on and this is the that somebody mentioned with the years to make a like this the Turkey the ra this is the like this Damo was nif in Shinlam Gimmel which is 1573 was nif was 33 when he was nif if you make the he was nif when he was 33 and the turkey was discovered in 1492 so ma like this before we mentioned that once people start doing it like shragi said let me start the msay now once people do it it's fine it's okay It's like we have a mess. Now we're saying something else. the was enforced or the din was that you have to have a ra is when the the ra brought it in the ra was nif again in 1573 somewhere within the 20 33 years of his life is when he wrote it and the turkey was already before so a they ate it they started eating the turkey beet so to speak and then afterwards once they started eating a beet ma you don't eat a messar in other words anything that started Ed before the ra said about having a mess you could continue eating. So the turkey started we started eating turkey before the ra wrote that you have to have a messiah. So mea you could continue eating it even though it started without a messy >> base. It's a big shim but you could say that the ra was the one who brought it was between the wasn't the 100%. So it comes out we have over here six on how we eat turkey even though either you don't need a mess or since we're no like that it's now we have a mess since it's vidus you don't need a messy there is a mess it'sl and other ones that have a mess or we've been eating it before we've been eating it before the msra I think it's fair to say turkey bring the stipler ate turkey are those that don't eat turkey says over his father didn't eat turkey it's interesting to note that didn't eat because didn't eat upon him we see many eat turkey himself doesn't eat and he says he it's but the way it's brought is that lis's Kids do eat because you you could go with the mother's mig but liserm said that he doesn't eat that's what it's brought down that he doesn't eat but kamatski his father did it didn't eat so we have this is so far turkey in general now we'll try to discuss today eating turkey today is there any issue of eating turkey today and then we we'll try to discuss four different scenarios one is about obviously eating turkey today Another one is to join in a Thanksgiving celebration for somebody to make their own Thanksgiving celebration and even just making said tonight we'll try to discuss all four some of it is not so clear and a very clear disclaimer I'm not a not here not in anything else but here in particular it's not even very clear in between the few but it's just uh bring it up to discuss to beer a person whether if he's celebrating not celebrating to know that he's a shil about it and to know that there's a discussion the first thing we'll speak about is the the last one about making a sim on on a day of thanksgiving so brings that on a day of a holiday let's say like that has to do with a des so that he says to make the the daf on that day. That's user medina. And even if it just happens to fall out, you didn't realize a person should really not do that marion. Now that's obviously only aim that you don't have to have it that day. He says a wedding you don't have to do it the day of the legal holiday. And the same is also baritzvah which interesting maybe you would think you want to do it by but he says a bar mitzvah let's say aum something that doesn't have to be a brisk that you have to do that day even if it falls out December 25th. Of course you do it that day. You don't push it off. But then he says laa he says Thanksgiving and it's interesting enough he also says about New Year's. New Year is one could really question maybe that it's also to do with a desire but he puts that into the together with thanksgiving which means it's more a secular just a celebr that doesn't have to be today but he says I spoke to Rabbi Bluth yesterday to get a little bit clarity on the futurist of Ramosa. So he said in the understanding of al- nephes he said that he he says not the raosha set but he said of he said that would be that there's no halls and you only have a hall then so that's called a of so to speak of course you could even if somebody's talking makes it's not not the end of the world if there's no hall a person can make the sim then also that's the first shila actually which we numbered at four about making a sim on a on a day like today. Now we'll try to get into the celebrating making celebrating Thanksgiving. So this is an in that chuva he says that it's to celebrate it. Now we'll try to move on to see on other chuvas to get a bit of clarity. He says it's awesome but not like those that want to say that the is of celebrating is of Morti Tak showed it to me inside he gets a a daily email from Vd Miller and I already saw it brought others say it as well he said that's written from a recording of his viciller says that celebrating thanksgiving is a desire it's even maybe even but he it goes into a question of which is Ramosa writes that it's and writes notar he says whoever says that it's a doesn't really understand the Indian has nothing to do with and he says even if you'll tell me that the ones in the beginning days celebrating thanksgiving were avoid and they used to give a thanks to their des but that's not the essence of the of the holiday and even now people celebrate it nothing to do with a desara they don't talk about a desara >> yeah it's a regular it's an enjoyment so it's not it's nothing to do it's nothing to do with a des anymore >> so lmus is based off it's a holiday of a des based off giving a thanks you're telling me that some were giving were doing thanks laor said that's not what the holiday is and now no one does he says wouldn't be a problem but he says there's another he says the says which this is a very big if it goes into what exactly goes in but not allowed to go in their ways and their ways is to celebrate thanksgiving so says he's towards the end of the chu he brings the tyers towards the end of the chuv he says just reading the words of what he says in the chuva first he says that it's and then he says but this is about speaking about making a thanksgiving party what's about joining you get invited your friends making a thanksgiving party could you go could you join so these are another two chuas of raosha and this is where it gets a bit confusing to understand clearly but these ina he says and not eating turkey is al turkey which mean they eat turkey which was our first shila that's not a problem which really if somebody doesn't se celebrate Thanksgiving but it happens to be it's on sale and you have turkey you can make it there's no problem there's a whole discussion in the piskim that if they decide to make something out of food. We can't. It doesn't asker us on food. So the turkey that we're going to leave out on the side turkey to eat turkey shalm celebrating just to have turkey is fine. However, this is important what he says and this comes out pretty clear between the two chas that you have to do it that there's a to do to celebrate thanksgiving to make it a then he says you're not allowed to do means to do it here and there spontaneous even if it's not only going to be one time you're going to do it uh even more than one year but if you do it not because to do it. Just stop. Why not? It's a day off and even though you're doing it on Thanksgiving, he says he comes out that comes out that it wouldn't be a problem. Not but he says that's for sure. What does it mean not that he says either to skip or and he says even skipping is also you should be so just to come out a clarity in what's maybe so to speak not so clear if to do it which means a yearly thing somebody has it set in his calendar that moses no but to do it here and dear once in a while which means you don't do it and kav which I also saw of hen says is such type of words that if you skip years that that would be fine and still says and is known also to be very against it. So just to conclude what we have over here. We spoke the first part of the year was about eating a turkey in general and then we spoke about thanksgiving whether to c whether to make a sim and then in celebrating it is for sure taking part you have to see inside one place he says maybe there would be an isser maybe not an iser. So it's uh maybe not so clear. That's at least a person should come out that it's not uh fully clear what if it's roster. Have a wonderful day.