Parshas Vayikra - Korbanos and more

Yeah. Okay, let's get going. >> Topic duour is is going to be carbon, right? And I think it's it's I I think the starting point is not really going to be new cuz it's something that I think you've all been exposed to, but what really is the point of carbon? You talk to somebody contemporary, somebody educated, certainly somebody outside our world. You tell them that we're going to find religious satisfaction by taking an animal and burning it and spraying its blood. He say, "What planet are you coming from?" Like, "What is good about this? What are you accomplishing? How does this make the world a better place? I mean, there are kids that are starving. There are people that are being abused. I mean, there are real issues out there, right? I mean, >> cruel, >> right? I mean, I mean, what is this all about?" So we'll develop two approaches. One would be an approach that says really carbon is really not what it's about. It was a concession to to paganism. Um people lived in a brutal world. They were used to blood and gore and they needed this and they were given this to sort of you know because if not for this there would have been human sacrifice. >> This was before Noah also. >> We're going to discuss that. The other approach is that there's something innately good about it. Okay. And it it's it's you know the sources go no I'm good. Sources are all over the map. But let's start. And I guess the good starting point is maybe not so much carbon but it's going to be everything that precedes carbon vicious carbon but it all really starts in Paris Truman Savo when there's a command to build a Mishkin because what will you do in the Mishkin? You'll have Truman Savo your command to build a mission. You'll have a yakuda where you actually build the mishkin. You'll have a yikra where we talk about the carbonus that define the mishkin and the rules and rituals that you know that accompany it. But it really all starts in trumatsava. It starts with the mishkin. And the question is when was the commandment to build the mishkin given? When did this start? The sea to give the mishkin when was it part of mountain toyra initially or is it something that developed later? So this I think you you might be well aware that there's a very very important very famous >> last week. >> Right. >> Right. Right. Right. Was the commandment to build the Michigan part of the original mountain Torah or was it something that came later? We stumbled. We slipped. We weren't so good anymore. We needed something to better ourselves. And so the Mishkin was given to sort of help us better ourselves. Was Mishkan part of the original commandment or was Mishka not? Well, if Mishkin was part, what happens in the Mishkan carbon? If Mishkin was not part of the initial commandment, the initial commandment did not involve Mishkin and didn't involve carbon. And what's going to emerge is is that maybe carbon was part of the original mura. Maybe it's something that's built in. Maybe it's something that will do lassid level. Maybe it wasn't. Maybe it was a response to because we slipped. But if we get better, maybe we won't need activity like this. >> What? >> That's the Ramban's question. So I'm not I mean I I mean I I feel tonight is not such a big night. I got a lot of sources. I'm not even sure where to begin. But I want to, you know, start with some surprising sources that, you know, I think will really create a little bit of discussion. So we're going to jump ahead. And the source I want to show you is let's jump all the way ahead to sort of get get the conversation going to I don't even know where my own sources are. Um I shall find it. But I have to know what I'm looking for before I find it. Um okay. I'm not going to find it. So, it's not really critical. But let's sort of sort of reiterate the um starting point. How do we view Karma? Is it something really good? It's something that makes us better or is it response to pagan needs? Okay. So, let's start with the topic we began exploring last week and really you know before that as well. Commandment to build the Michigan. One approach is it was part and parcel of the original Torah. When we were given the Torah, we were given the commandment to have a Michigan. With that is carbon, right? It's all part and parcel of the original Mishkin. The other approach that's the Raman's approach is Rashi's approach. Rashi's approach is when we were given the Torah initially we were given sort of a smaller Torah. Lots of things weren't part of it. Then there was once we have we need to better ourselves. We have Mishkan, >> we have carbon, we have lots of things like that. But that wasn't really part of the initial command. >> You saying the first Lucas hel had less commandments. Um, so the lucas are just the sados. So they're Yeah. And if you want a source that says this clearly, we discussed the not long ago, right? We're going to start with the faro. >> I think the sarno will will start. Perfect time. Dant to come. Okay. Sparno. So let's start um with theo who is again I should really know where my sources are. I put this together. Source three. Okay. Now thiso talks about the fact and you know until you notice the phono you don't even think about it but once you notice this you really can't help noticing it because what he says is so obvious he says there's really two Toras you've got the you got all the mishbatim a lot of them are civil laws legal laws financial but some of them are ritual right then you have like a break you have the eagle now trum was right before the eagle But but then you have the eagle and then suddenly in Vayikra you have lots of new laws more kashis tasbaka like a whole new religion. You got one set of laws agel and then additional laws. The way the swarno reads it in the mros or very prominent um given to new ideas a man of the renaissance a man of art and science. Swarna says the original Torah was more limited. We were given something smaller. Then we muffed up who realized we need something more complicated. Let's not talk about us. Let's talk about children. Um I've been involved in education. When you teach little kids, you need things that are very concrete. You draw on the lines and you have your homework and you sit in class from 9 to 5 and you come home with exact, you know, structure. But by the time you're a graduate student doing research, there's very little in-class time. It's a lot of independent study. You create your own papers. You create your own projects. Right? Spar tells us initially a keshbar who respected us and gave us a Torah with less ritual, less detail. We couldn't handle it. So said, you know, you're on a lower level. I'm going to give you something a little bit more comprehensive. We were given more mitzvah not because we were holier, but because we were less holy. because we needed more structure. You know, we're criticized and it's the criticism is false, but the people who began the reform movement clearly did something that didn't work. They um look at history, but were they all stupid? >> They were educated people and they and they made it didn't work. So clearly, you know, the the the rabbon who said it's not going to work. Stick with tradition knew what they were talking about. But what was one of their biggest critiques? One of their biggest critiques is is that Orthodox Jews from Jews are so busy with ritual and details and crossing tees and dotting eyes that they lose sight of greater morality. Now I I don't think it's true. My experience has taught me that from Jews, even though they're paying tuition and even though they have to get up in the morning to go to minion and even though they're they're they're stressed because their families are bigger, still find more time to go to nursing homes have are better at at at shalomay or bedding, they're just better because they're because the rituals just make us better people. >> I believe in a higher power. It's like you can >> but but non-orthodox Jews who also believe in a higher power. >> I'm using it very >> right. So some of them, you know, some of them, many of them, you know, unfortunately no longer believe in a higher power. I mean, there's been such a everything outside the Orthodox world has fallen apart. But until it fell apart, when conservative Judaism still had something to it, and it's a tragedy because we've lost 90% of our brethren, they claimed they believe in God, but still it was the from kids who who had double curriculum who made their ways terrorists more. >> If I say believe in high power, meaning you have an extra reason to do so, >> right? But but they also said they're supposed to and they said, "Well, we don't do so much ritual. We can be more moral." But at the end of the day, our people gave more stuck, gave more time, didn't even though we're handling so much. So the ritual works, but at the end of the day, too much ritual, you can be over ritualized, right? You can spend your whole day shaking lul and not visit an elderly mother, right? So there's a certain point where you know it's too much of a good thing, right? So the sora says, "Initially gave us something less rich." was clear, explicit. You need to see this. Um um when I discussed this not long ago, look at the source three. So he says again, you got laws in Mishbatim and you have kash laws of mishb, right? You've got rules in mishbatim, but you don't have anything else. You don't have kash other aspects of kash. You don't have you don't have so so much. Then you got and then suddenly in you've got an explosion of ritual. So many things you can't eat. So many things you can't do. So many times you can't have relationships. Why all this ritual? Says when we muffed up, we showed that we need more structure to be able to function as good from people. It wouldn't work without that. It'll go back to less because when you're when you're advanced, >> what is less? bottle that would work with a medish that tells you that would be an excellent example. Um is called it's going to be kosher again. So it works again the midrash go both ways but um as um you know there's a whole world that the works with we just saw this together. They lost their crown. They could have access without Michigan, without all types of things. Everywhere said that's the way it's going to be in the future is not going to connect to us. not going to be unless we purify ourselves, unless we ritualize, unless we have lots and lots of details and soak gives us and gives us and gives us to gives us all these things only because we muffed at. But if not for that, we would have a less ritualized religion. Now again, that's Throno's thesis. Sounds controversial the first time you hear it. Sounds odd but truth be told it's not so odd because at the end of the day you're pointing out correctly there's a whole host of madrashim that talk about aid modernly bel and khazarus well what do you mitzvah make you holy why in the world will there be less mitzvah lavo well mitzvah also creates structure and when you're truly a man of the spirit sometimes structure inhibits you a little less structure gives you more leeway so that that critique they were totally wrong the reform movement the conservative movement failed I mean terribly and and and there are losses because of it. But in every every lie there's a little bit of truth or it wouldn't take off. A lie that has no truth to it is not going to work. There was some truth because too much ritual means you lose sight of the forest. Too many trees and that plays itself out most clearly in cabbonus. The Barbanel again these are mainstream rishonim. Barbanell quotes the Rambam. Actually, you know, it's not I don't see the Ramom saying much of what the Ababanel says, but the Ababanel says the Ramom says it, but even if the Ram doesn't, the Abanel is a prime, very respected Rishon, right? We're not dealing with someone who's out of the box. He talks about Corbin. He says, "Really? Is this really so necessary? Does this really um you know, spraying blood, killing an animal, burning fat, does this really create morality?" So the abanel says absolutely not it's like the but different talks about how initially we weren't so ritualized then we showed a kadesh that we need ritual the barbanel says and he accesses the raam says initially we were pagans um now I know that you know contemporary thinkers you read the sadoras people much holier becoming less and less holy and there's something to that point of view but there's another point of view also dwarf morphs on the shoulders of giants. As people progress, they um there is certain moral growth. The Abrael says when the Torah was given, we were accustomed to animal sacrifice. We were accustomed to human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was the norm. And again, if all you have to do is go online, type in cananan c, type in um child sacrifice or human sacrifice. This was the norm. And it's documented in Nvi. Misha Melikmo sacrificed his child. He killed him. Yif may very well have sacrificed his daughter. According to many authorities, he killed her. Even if he didn't kill her, he locked her up in a monastery, which is a parent doesn't have a right to do, right? He doesn't have a right to make that decision for a child today. That would be considered terribly immoral. and that was a leader and and that um that this was practiced in the community >> and that really is a a class when we come to the cade we'll talk about it's actually a it's it's it's it's if there's one topic I feel passionately about that's the topic wherever I go I you know I offer an approach I think is correct but let's wait uh threequarters of a year we'll get there um that what this what is the greatness of being ready to kill your child in a world in Human sacrifice is the norm. So the arcades is something that really you know again lots of views but we'll get there. That's a sh to itself. Look at the okay barbell is very explicit like the spo says initially less ritual we show we need itel says about he doesn't say whether the mitzvah of the mishkin and the carbonus was given as a reaction table or not but he just says the whole idea dealt with ancient paganis. Look at his language and it sounds you know this is 16th century but it really sounds like a 21st century thinker writing the truth is the rail um intellectual things learning spiritual things um or rituals that have something moral to them. You wear it. It's a you you know you feel this, you know, help me feel connected. You you have something on you that reminds you. You can touch it and it reminds you on your door. There's something there that evokes Jewish feeling. You you understand why it this is true religion. That's really what wants us to keep. That's the ideal. These mitz will always last. They will always learning ding. They weren't always meant to be part of just the fact that the Torah restricts. If it's something so good, why restrict it? Titus isn't restricted. Fillin isn't restricted. It's everywhere. I mean, not not the bathroom. inappropriate but but it's it's something wonderful you take it with you well carbon every just one place I'll go I highlight to limit this shalom it's not really part of the initial um um um perspective on what is about okay and then he brings all these sukim he quotes the nimhia says Why do you bring so many told us when we left Egypt? He didn't say anything about carbon because that wasn't part of the initial command. Just listen to my words. But I didn't command you about carbon initially. And then he quotes that if you learn Torah, you don't need carbon. You don't need katus. You don't need ola. And and he he you know he actually as he writes the barabanel writes at length he becomes more impassion. I think many of us are that way. We have an idea. We're sort of reluctant to say it. >> He's building it but you see the passion emerging because as the piece continues he becomes more emphatic. Okay. Look at the end. Um low carbon. I want words. I don't want I don't want you killing animals. That will cause complete forgiveness. That's enough. And then the next piece, it's a continuation of the Barbaranel. It's a a little bit more emphatic. Again, it's a section. Abanel is very lengthy. People don't learn them as much as they should. I include myself. Just very hard to make your way through. It's just a very long piece. Always five. Um he quotes um heish leave the medish tells you says be careful to bring me a carbon bring me a carbon not to desish telling you this you know there's a prohibition against bring up doing um worshiping of a desara and there's a commandment to bring a carbon why are we sort of melding the two I'm commanding you to sacrifice to me not What is this about? So he says, what does this mean? Where he quotes again the same point and he brings an example. If you have really like god forbid a heroin addict, right? If someone is god forbid addicted to heroin, you want to break the habit. What you do is you take them to a methadone clinic. You gradually transition them away from something terrible to what's something not as terrible and then eventually they can sort of move away and re-engage with life. The medus carbon is exactly we were accustomed to pagan sacrifices who couldn't break it because people were primitive. So what a kadesh did was aes gave us really a substitute but it's really just for a moment in time until we transition away. Now the Ramban is ferociously opposed to this and the Raman says well well um He brought carbonas and cayenne was not so great and Noah brought carbon. How can you say it's really just a reaction to paganism when early you know great early people brought carbonas as well. There are answers to the Roman's question and and the theel you know his his passion increases and the truth is theel is the moa. The moa says the same thing. um language is a little different but it's really the mor so the motor here is a source um um here in six and seven I brought near me we are um look at source seven seven I didn't command them when they left Egypt what's saying I mean that wasn't part of the initial mandate there was you showed a kadesh that you're in a lower level you need something ritualized and you were still simply you were still paganistic. You were used to animal sacrifice and if you wouldn't have been offered animal sacrifice you may have engaged in human sacrifice. Human sacrifice was very widespread even within our world and aim tell us clearly that basis not everyone not in all places did slip into human sacrifice and the truth is there's um they there's there hints that even during the aa human sacrifice might have occurred there's a story about being killed it's not there in the p clearly but the p tells you mis Aaron understood it's a redaction of the Pik the is is that but we redact it to mean that Aaron understood from the sacrifice of whor opposed to the eagle but if you read the PK this way it doesn't say that was killed it says he was sacrificed zeic is a term that's used for human sacrifice human sacrifice was the norm all over the ancient near east and it was a given and if it was a given It's hard to break the habit. What you can do I think just this morning we we learned together we saw I didn't bring it down says at the beginning of of Vayikra. So he's not explicitly saying that carbon is instead of human sacrifice but the says explicitly bring from the animals don't bring from humans. Like what does he tell you? Of course you don't bring from humans. He's indicating that this was quite common. But the mor is very clear about this. theor tells you and here you know again it's lengthy so go through the source at your leisure he says why were these three animals born as sacrifices so he says a little bit differently than what we're saying here he says that in the ancient world these three animals were considered godly he says in modern India um cattle are still considered godly cows are godly um goats seam is a term that's used for god so clearly they consider or rats I didn't know But se or goats are considered godly because sear is used throughout the tourism for god and and the Egyptians worship sheep because the tells you right so the carbon pik tells us that these three animals were godly so we're told to sacrifice them to sort of negate their gods it's not exactly what the abadel says the barbanel says and he's quoting the rama but I think he's taking part of liberty um the barbell says that we were accustomed to human animal sacrifice we we're offered something else instead. The Ram says something a little different. The Ram says these animals are worshiped so therefore we sacrifice them to negate the worship. This way you can't worship them. Maybe it's the same, maybe it's different, but that's the Rambam. Now the great question is and I I think you've you've heard this Ram before, right? I don't think this is novel. This is something but I I actually want to offer a number of approaches in this Ram. Firstly, first great question is the Rambam explicitly contradicts himself. The Rambam in the Yad in the Moa, the Ram says it's a concession. And look at his language. And in the Moa, the Ram says eight. That's the mo. He says it's a concession to pagan. In the he says the exact opposite. What he says in the mor is number nine. He says all carbonis are commands from they're unknowable. They're indecipherable. They're coming back in the future. And if we keep them, it's just going to make the world a better place. It's an open contradiction. So, I will tell you, um, one person that I learned within my old community in Toronto had actually been a professor of philosophy at U of, a brilliant man. Um, and he left this post, but he'd been a professor of philosophy there for many, many, many years. And he pointed out that in the in the medieval world, people lived with um maybe this came once Friday morning, people lived with multiple truths. Um we view truth as one as an absolute, right? But not necessarily. Um in their world, it was acceptable to say one thing to one person and one thing to another person, and that was fine. and and and just the way I don't know, you can tell one kid that this is the chicken is it's really um strawberry ice cream um disguised as chicken so she'll eat it. Um you could say that and that was acceptable. So that would be a simple answer but that really you know that does not approach truth the way we approach it. The way we approach truth is we try to resolve the two rumbums right >> right in Hungary and Poland >> that's mimic but this is a core is is carbon going to come back in the future is won't it there is a mic so Hungarians have a mic that this is not kosher um Germans have a mic that this is kosher but here the rama says carbon is going to come back in the future and that they're um they're hookim And because of carbonos the world stands and then the moi says there are concession to pagan needs and eventually we'll shift away from them. >> I think there are you can say it's not a contradiction he's saying the the origin of cardos was because of paganism and it should fall away once we are in a different place. But once once it's documented and once it's written he's he's ch not changing he's saying it's now it's written >> and now we need it to keep the world going. That could be an interesting that could I actually never thought of that your ideas. I never thought of that that could tie in. Um so let me just share because there's a gamut of sorts. I I mean this is a labor of this sometimes I you know some this is I mean just the heart is here. Okay. So let me let me share the questions that you ask the Ramban's question right the Ramban approaches and says how in the world can you say that um um carbon is simply a I miss you I thank welcome back. Okay. It just wasn't the same. What? >> Yeah, we missed you. So, how can you say it's a concession today? I mean, he brought a carbon and that was considered so wonderful. Um, Noah brought Cabanas. These are great people. >> But, but the Ramb's question is is that paganism didn't exist yet, did it? >> So, that's going to be a little bit of I I'll be comfortable saying that it did. The Raman says that it didn't. And it really touches upon what the world was like when he existed when Noah existed. But the Ran's question is he is early. There's no paganism yet. Noah is a big saddic. There's no one in the world. Why they bring in Kbanos if it's only about countering pagan thinking? So that's the Ramban's question. And the Ramban it's very much in sync with the Ramban. The Ramban is out of all rishonum. The Ramban is the most literal of Rishonum Rashi. And you should know I I didn't know this till I was I'd say in my 30s and I was in Raanus before I I realized this. So you learn things in life. Um Rashi is is not frequently is not offering an opinion. If you look at Rashi, Rashi is very frequently simply quoting midrashik text and he's quoting the right midrashic text for the moment. It's Rashi is extraordinary but his job is frequently not to offer an opinion. What the med means you can debate. Everyone knows of these madrashim. Most shonum did not mean madrashim as fact. When it says og is a million feet tall, it means he was tall. He was 6'2 and not not 5'8. Um and that's um the ramban would be more of a literalist. And that's because the ramban was dealing with you know certain challenges in medieval Spain. But the ramban is the exception. Um the and the Ramban really is afraid of once you start you know saying things their responses or their or their um you know responses to paganism he's afraid of how this will lead people away from religion once things aren't black and white the Roman was surrounded by Christians who are moving away from pure thought the Roman um you know we showed him interfaced with with Christian theologians much more than we do and they're quoted rashly interface with the nuns nearby What more? >> They were they were more open I think than we are. I think we're we I think we're dealing >> on their own bond with like saf >> right but but but among among the religious dignitaries I mean just saying people don't most most local myself included do not interact exactly paganism is what is >> paganism means >> the worship of idols >> I think it's a lot of things but I think at its core right so I think in a sense I'm I'm I'm not an expert on paganism either you know but I I I I spend my life and I've done it for 61 years making believe that I know more than I No, but if you use big words with lots of syllables, you usually get away with it, right? Um, and if you don't, you just sidestep the question and you make you make believe it wasn't being asked. >> They hadn't developed the ability to think abstract. We can they couldn't imagine that. It was beyond their comfortable. They need because they were like children just the way a little child when you talk about is up in Shayim a little child can't imagine was gone. They thought like children. There was no education. There was no development of abstract thinking. And unfortunately, one of one of I think the tragedies of our contemporary education. I don't know that it's so good at developing thinking. You know, we're so busy teaching facts that there's not. So there was no abstract thinking that developed with times. They needed concrete things. They needed concrete. And once things aren't greed, God needs to be in green. When God's concrete, there's a sun, there's a moon. They're going to fight with one another. When they fight with one another, there are wars. You have to appease them. And then before you know it, you have human sacrifice because when they're angry gods, they need to be appeased. But the Ramban says, "Okay, you're telling me the Rambam um and the Rambam and theel more clearly and the um not as clearly, but that carbon is a concession to paganism. Um Kamashiach, we're going to move away from that because we'll be beyond that." Okay, that's the ram and the moah, not the ram of the Well, what about he? What about Noah? There were no pagans around. Noah was the only one in the world. He wasn't busy with pagans, right? Well, what what are they concerned about? Right? What? And then he and then the Rambat has many other questions. The Ramban is really afraid of Rambamic approach. But this is typical of the Ramban Rambam argument. The Rambam is more of a rationalist, more of a scientist. The Raman says no, don't don't make things scientific. Don't make things rational. This is what it said. Let's read it literally. It it's seen in a thousand, you know, in so many other arguments. This is just one example of the many many arguments and it really defined their worlds. The Ramban was surrounded by Christians who were allegorizing things and he was afraid of that. Right? The Christians who surrounded the Ramban in Spain at the time said, "Well, the story of Aramans never really happened. They were prototypes. It was just a world." I actually know someone who wrote a thesis on that um just on that. that was a doctoral thesis. Um so yeah that you know that's so the Raman wanted to protect us from that. The Raman didn't see this as a concern. So the Raman thought different but let's come back. These are the Raman's questions and the Raman again I overprepared but the Raman's questions are source 10 and it looked like we have a nice new face or shalom. Okay you going to be part of a party you'll make me a happy man. So that's the Ramban. So how do you resolve this? So firstly um the Ramban says well Noak and He weren't really concerned about paganism. They weren't concerned about people doing the wrong things. So they don't didn't need carbonas to accommodate people who were used to human sacrifice. Are you so sure about that? I want to show you a very extraordinary safy karum. He points out >> who was here who was >> um Rabitis Galvo um medieval region very respected um very respected um um so um he says something really interesting he says Ken and He's at the bottom of 11 are having a you know an argument that led terrible places right Ken kills he must have something significant must have happened let's try to understand their konus >> wakes of life um right there's there's a lot of bad things happening right but like how did I come to this right what really is going on >> so let's look at the garbonus cen brought an animal as a sacrifice I'm sorry he brought an animal as a sacrifice cen did not like why wouldn't cayenne do it I mean the whole world was at his beck and call >> so why wouldn't he bring an animal as a sacrifice so let's jump a little bit ahead Noah right It's it's it's 10 generations later. Didn't own was on the ground, >> right? But could be could be. But let's come a little ahead. So when Noah Noah's generation a flood was brought to the world. Why did the flood come? Why was humanity punished so severely? So Kimarus is one the is the things meant society fell apart. How did it fall apart? Khishkbuster. What does khishkbuster do mean? They were destroying. But Rashi is very cultust. What does Rashi tell you? >> Corruption. What type of corruption? >> Animals would go with different species, >> right? Sexual corruption, right? >> Like it's weird. Like why are animals doing that? Right. And you know animals don't make don't have free choice. Animals don't define >> presence. >> So what were they learning from us? What is that a nice way of covering covering? Is it just about animals um having um engaging in appropriate relationships or is it also about >> they were mirroring us? And the truth is animals too mirrors humans, right? They have these studies, right? If someone has a dog for 20 years, you start looking like your dog. You ever saw that? And yeah, yeah, yeah. And the dog picks up your attributes. The animals were mirroring us. Why were the animals mirroring us? And what were we doing? >> I thought you was degeneration. What is the degeneration? human degeneration, beiality. Humans were engaging in relations with animals. Why were humans engaging in relations with animals? >> It was just physical attraction. There's just so repulsive >> because there's no just but there was nothing that was user to them that they could have pleasure. >> So that could be but I wonder you know we live in a world today you know some like saying the world today is less moral. I I don't I I don't agree with that >> barrier that just broke down. Right. Right. I don't think, you know, my wife and I debate this all the time. She says the world today is less moral. I say it's absolutely not. I don't think so. It's more moral with some things, less moral with other things. And the two work hand in hand. >> But California, >> right? But but what is the immorality, right? But the immorality is in terms of personal relationships. It's much harder to abused wives can leave the marriages. Abused kids, parents are or um um you know uh civil rights. There's there's been a great moral growth in a certain sense that creator autonomy that lets people do what they want and that has led to excesses in another area. So the you know the autonomy that makes it harder for you know for I don't know for people to suffer in in relationships or discrimination racism also leads to the you know you know the gender issues you so less more more I don't know you can debate this that's a discussion you can have over your shabas table but you really don't want to have any shabas table because just it's an uncomfortable discussion but something to think about talking about friends you know when it's not at the shabas table but but but the the there's autonomy Right. There's a growth in animal rights also. I even in our world, I don't think you have relations with that. And maybe it's happening in the oddest of worlds, but it just there's it just seems so odd and weird and unattractive. But early humanity where mankind hadn't really established itself, maybe the barriers. >> So that's Shadal's idea. Shadal talks about that's one but maybe the barrier between man and animal wasn't as clearly drawn. Look at the story of Adam and the conversation. So again there's a range of readings as to what the story is from Ibanzra who says it's a metaphor to the environmental saying the snake never spoke. It just climbed and it sent the message that way. But this general reading is is that some conveyed a message that's how the story is generally read. uh was inappropriate with as well, >> right? relations which is sort of right >> that's thing >> right now and again it gets that's where reading Madrush literally gets really weird because this is supposed to be this extraordinary human being and to engage in relations with it it's just a little you know >> no she was raped not that she went with him >> why it was willingly >> it does I I don't recall it saying abuse I don't I don't recall that actually but maybe I don't recall them my lack of recollection I told you I know very little I use lots syllables. So I don't know I mean but but let's come back to the core. What the karum says is is that in early human history the barrier between animal and man hadn't been drawn as clearly. Right? It just wasn't as clear. And because the barrier wasn't as clear was reluctant to bring an animal sacrifice because he didn't think he had the right to do it. He was coming from a moral place. He felt I can't sacrifice an animal. Man and animal are close to one another. He said, "No, you need to sacrifice an animal to create that barrier because by creating that barrier, what are you doing? You're protecting mankind." Because if you don't have that barrier, what's going to happen? Beastiality. You'll have men having relations with animals. Mankind may have been different. Animals may have been somewhat different, but the barrier wasn't as clear. And indeed just the next story in the Torah is hishkbaser. It's beastiality. It's animals copulating with one another. But animals don't have free choice. Animals are replicating what humans were doing. Humans were copulating with animals. So Noah lived with the memory of that. So why is Noah building right after he left the ta. The Rambam is knew what the Ramban knows. The Ramban was an extraordinary genius. The Rambam was an extraordinary genius. Right? These are great people. So if the Ramban asks the question on the Rambam, it's a very good question, but the Rambam probably has a very good answer. And of course, the Ramban could perhaps debate it, but no one forgot anything. These are, you know, these are the greatest geniuses who've ever lived. So the Rambam tells you carbon was a response to need. People were engaging in human sacrifice. You need carbon to substitute. People were used to animal sacrifice. If they wouldn't have been allowed to bring animal sacrifice, they would have brought it to another Zara. So the Torah builds it into the system. The Rama is explicit about that in the Mora. The Abrael is explicit about that. Others are as well. Alludes to that is really different, but the Rasparna might be in the same genre. But the Raman says, "You can't tell me that animals are response to paganism. What about Noah?" Well, when was Noah living? Lo was living right after the flood when people weren't gazing beastiality. So, what was the smart thing for Noah to do right when he left the table and he's building a new world to create a barrier by building a sacrifice? >> He also was not allowed to be with his wife while people were being destroyed, right? Ty is very >> interesting. Interesting. >> So, he had interesting interesting idea. Interesting. Yeah. Interesting idea. Yeah. Good idea. All of this can tie in. That's just a theory that I'm sharing. But again, you know, if the Ramadan is a question of the Rambam, the Ram, it's not the Ram didn't overlook, right? Look at what the Ram wrote, right? So the Rama, there are reasons why the Ram wrote this, even though he knew that he brought an animal sacrifice and cayenne and he well, it's early human history. I don't know what the world was like exactly, but the barrier between man and animal might not have been that distinct yet. It might have been necessary, hefeld, to bring that sac. You should check for for a spouse. Right. >> Right. Right. So again, that's such a wonderful message. Again, I would not read that literally. Right. The medish tells you just to know how that's why to me it's a little bit hard sometimes to see how how midrashim are presented in the contemporary schools. Medus tells you that that Adam was had relations with every creature in the world. >> Says that. >> Yeah. And then he didn't have. So then created a wife. This way he appreciate her. And >> this is before Kava was created. >> This this was to make him appreciate he went through this ordeal and then was created. If you read that medish literally and this is Adam who is who is Adam is the greatest of you know this mosh you know but is he stayed away from his wife for >> Yeah. So again I I I I I you I I I wouldn't I'm not a literalist about these madrashim. I think if you read such a medish literally I think it it creates a problem in >> so we can think about what the metaphor is um >> yeah he just tried to understand he was without a without a partner. He tried to understand what his role was. But that to say he had physical relations with every animal in the world, it would be a very >> the does say that he was responsible for giving names >> names, right? Um, but there's a big big jump from giving names to copulating with them. It's a very >> He actually says he says that >> he didn't find peace with him or something >> and and he didn't find he Yeah. So again, Right. Um so so I again I think it's a great danger. Um I'm not even sure if madrashim should be taught to young people maybe later in life like what's the gain >> but but it the problem is that rashi brings them down. So Rashi >> okay but but let's come. So that would be a theory but I'm that it's theory based on but there are many many other answers is h how can you sort of how can you mel the two approaches so I can't go through all of them I brought down look at the mesh at your leisure mesh actually tries to take a very literal approach he says well in one place the ram says carbonus are going to come back leav and one place they're not one place he says they're really just about addressing paganism in the other place they're this divine thing that's really good for the future So the mesh is very technical. He says >> in the future the seems to say the environmental explicitly says we will not have carbonas in the future. >> So what will >> ah we'll offer some answers. >> So absolutely on target. We'll get there in a moment. So the mesh says different types of kbanas. Some that are brought in the Mishkan mikdash some that are brought outside and abama those are not. Um that's that's 16. That's the there is a wonderful approach brought down by the tosh actually is a safer that very few people have that if if you would splurge on one set of real a last page if you would splurge on one set of good sarum you should splurge on that you you can't find this online >> what's the book >> to it's expensive but it it's if there's one set was written by just know who wrote it by kasha raman kasha was the gerassid the gb sent him out of Europe he in to establish seminar ro in 25. So many ga kasid survived because g established a beach head. He came to Israel. He fell in love with Zionism. He became a passionate Zionist like really maki. He never stopped being a gassid but he became very you know Zionistic. But it didn't end there. He then made his way to New York. He discovered the ra. So there's g there's misrai. Then the suffuses paneek's writings. That paneek was a great go and lit who died right before his writings were never published. Um they're cryptic. He discovered his writings. He made it his life's mission. So he became a Gerassid who was a one of the leaders in Misrai who became um a um the um >> yeah but something it wasn't just a lit his writings were like arch litak but but so he devoted his life but he needed to establish an office for this. So he established his office at Wu but when he was doing that he also want he became you know academic nations. He began writing the turish lab. is the most wonderful work in the world. Simple and complicated. What he did was simple. He took he took all the madrashim. He lines up all the madras all the madrashim. But there are different versions of the madrashim. So he footnoted them and he brought down all the different versions because they have different meanings. But how do you how do you see all them? How do you see all the different madras versions of the madrashim? So the best library in the US is at the JTS, the um Jewish theological seminary, the conservative seminary. So he he got himself an office at the JTS where he spent his days analyzing old madras. So Aarassid who was a leader in Misrai who spent his life analyzing a litak had his main office at the conservative seminary and that's how he put out the Torah. I think I think that's his story. Um and and it's like just amazing. Um, and it it's just he tried to put us something on on Gamar Gamar. He died before he could believe it. But tame is it just they might have it here. Um, if they don't, it's a shame. It's like it's just if there's one set of for to have and it's not a controversial set. Um, you everything is controversial >> lists all the right is it is it just um everything any anything good anything good is no it doesn't just list the midrash. It brings down the various texts. So it's a collection. Madrashium is also other mfort as well that are not >> no just a madrashim but it's an it's an academic so what he does is he accessed old writings I don't think he just stayed at JTS he got access writings from Oxford it's eclectic he compared them and there were differences that emerged >> and this before computers >> this before computers so he was he was a genius now again anything good is anyone who says anything worthwhile or publishes anything worthwhile is going to be excoriated will be put in that's the norm if it's good that it'll be put in and then it'll That's just the way it works. Um um you a lozer you see. Boy, I was not recorded for 20 years. It's not going to do me any good. Um but um I mean the Rambam anytime may actually put a rating on your ship. >> So let's not let's let's not go any further. So he takes a very traditional approach. He says sort of akin to what the meshma says different kabanas different places >> but the simplest answer the most beautiful answer is Raf cook's answer ruff cook um was um was not a vegetarian I actually you know people say he was a vegetarian he was not um I I asked a million talidum of his um at at Marazarav um >> people think it was a vegetarian >> because he was very humanistic he loved everybody He heard that was one of them. >> He did and and and he his main talid he had a Talmud who was called the Nazer who was a vegetarian and I I actually once been to Shabas Kazarav. So I had sudas with >> what they eat >> vegetables. So I actually had I had two Shabas sudas with two rashish. One of them was a vegetarian. The Friday night suda was was and you can't even tell with tofu. You can't even tell. Um but anyway, Ruff Cook says it's all very simple. Of course, we're going to bring carbonas in the future because look, look at the davining, right? He deals with me twice a week. He deals with me Friday morning also. So, um um he says in the future we're going to bring carbonas. I mean, your davining is all about carbonas, >> but who says the carbonas are going to be meat-based? Maybe they'll be vegetationbased, >> right? And he says, How does monestry endem the the the is going to be the and the truth is there is a whole line of thinkers like the who says in the future we're going to be vegetarian. The truth is and that's a supposition most of us would make. We don't know what the future's going to be like. So if you're a rationalist, you'll say the future's going to be, you know, not so so much different, advanced, healthy, peace of universal religion. But when you go towards the more dramatic worlds, the messianic world is going to be like like Gaden, right? Well, what was Ganed like? Ganeden was vegetarian. People weren't allowed to eat meat until after after the um mobble. Well, then why wouldn't you revert back to that? If it's going to be you'll have the luxurious fruits it's going to be and animals will the food was >> only by Noah were you allowed to eat meat only after Noah. So, so, so, so there are a range of thinkers including, >> so it could be maybe >> the says we're going to be vegetarian anyway. We're going to be vegetarian. You're going to bring you'll kill animals in the mic. So, it could be could be there are differences. I'm not saying it's impossible, but Cook says, well, why assume it's going to be meat-based? It's going to be vegetation based. Now all the ideas that we tied >> but but the psukum don't talk about moving away from um carbonis um arish monestri is all about re um um resurrecting the b mdashesh and reverting to garbanus but the carbanis will be vegetation based and truth be told that actually makes a lot of sense. The ramban struggles with the the moral message of a carbon like what is really so moral about killing an animal? Um it's a cruel act like and there's no personal gain like what is so what does >> so that's the Raman the Raman says because you sinned it evokes it's almost curious death it reminds you that you're going to die it scares you it's it's that type of thing but maybe lusted lover you'll be more advanced you won't need that type of reminder >> because you won't be sitting >> so that according to the >> har that how you sitting >> right so according to the raam you right there are two opinions going to the ra the world there will Sin will be sin. >> Going to the >> be hell can't you couldn't make it do you could accidentally sin >> no on purpose purpose going to the vain it's the you know our world that's the and remember when it comes to Ram is the one we usually follow um so the Ram says he says it's going to be a It's >> so there again it's a gammorra but what are what does it mean just the way there's but again we quote a medish about having relations with all these animals so maybe there'll be less of a but again you have I'll tell you very clearly one opinion there's no in our world and lusted love except she malus >> we said what >> and and the the main component of life is is the struggle with the if that would disappear then the garra would tell you that so That's not the only opinion of the Gamarra, but that's the one the Ram Pascans like and Pak is usually based on the Ramba. So, it'll be more advanced. It'll be a world where everyone accepts Jews as really having message, us being respected, world peace. But all of that is um health, but people will the whole point of life is to struggle with with you know and and overcome temptation. So that's the now again it's not the only approach and again you have this you have it's gra I mean very explicit about it brings it but what does it mean 6,000 here the whole 6000 >> right whenever Msiah comes and whatever Msiah is and right it's it's it's all um the more you learn with me the less you'll know that's it's we're headed towards knowing um less and less about more and more until we know nothing about everything. That's the >> is that really >> rightzra right the more you learn the more you learn how much he doesn't know >> right right it's the classic line someone who doesn't know that he doesn't know doesn't know >> put on the book like headline >> so I yeah so maybe maybe the title of the book should be um to know um more less and less about more and more till you know everything about nothing that actually can be a good title >> that catch >> it's It's already done. The title is there. I can't change it. They will kill me. But that is actually an idea for a title. But um but so again, so there's a range of sources. Feel free to RF cook is here as well. Feel free to sort of work through them. And again, I I have I I have no clarity. There there are people who are smarter than I, but usually people who are less smarter than I who have clarity. Um usually I find the the less you know, the more clarity you have. That's been my experience in life. the the K on the Krueger redunding effect. You know about you know about I don't the crew redunding effect is that people acquire if you do a math like do a graph of how much you think you how much you think you know versus how much you really know people learn they're high they think they know the most when they're when they're just like at the beginning um yeah and then they realize how much they don't know about halfway and then when become experts they never reach that point of self asssurance as the person who was like at the 25th >> let's say let's say a quarter of the way you know >> I mean just look at 18-year-olds know everything right 20 angels or less. By the time you're 58, you realize you know very little. >> Um, such as the nature of life. I I don't know what it's like at 88. I'm I'm afraid. >> Um, >> please