Mechiras Chametz: The History and The Practical - Shiur by Rabbi Ari Senter at Scheiner's

here. I'd like to thank Don Holl and it's a tremendous so the title is and I'll explain to you because first of all how much time do I have 12 hours >> 24 hours >> 9:45 okay so at 9:44 you'll tell me to stop so I guess uh try to give the history of you see why I'm referring it to in that fashion then through the evolution and the history oft and I'll explain to you why I refer to it as history and evolution the first the first source of any form of that existed is actually a basically being that and are happen to be on a boat and It's he goes, "Oh my, I have comets." So then he sells gives it to the sells it to the then he can buy it back after PES. But then the ends with a caveat provided that it makes a matra. So what is that caveat? What does the mean by those words? But that's the wording of the why I say what by that then continues the next the talks about that I can tell please go buy before you buy it. I never opened it and you buy X amount and I'll buy it afterwards. But that that's simpler because that never actually came into the but what is this statement. So the the challenge is we'll see that there's multiple explanations to what that means. First has the exact same lion and the bahag actually changes the words. He says the g is provided that you don't do this is the beginning of all the challenges and many of the that exist in reference to that is the gear of the is the true the many jump in and say so I'm going to jump towards the end of the story and then get back to the beginning of the story. What do I mean? So there's a everybody's accustomed are familiar with there was a tur the tur jumped in and said hold on one second are all what we would refer to as haram which means haram means even though technically I really am selling it to the guy and the guy is technically buying it from me but he knows and I know that in all probability he's not taking it and I'm going to take it back and The bottom line is he knows that I know that it's going to stay by me. So it's a haram meaning we've gone through a ceremonial action. I want to be very careful about the statement ceremonial but we've gone through a technical sale but all parties concerned know what's going to happen. You know what? I don't think the the Arab who I happen to meet is the Arabs who work for Ramada uh hotel really believes that he he's going to own all of I don't know whether or not he thinks he owns the entire so is so in comes the and said he embraced it and said is a haram. Okay. what what do I mean? So he jumped in and learned the entire toa totally different and I'll explain to you how he understood the toa and then therefore and we'll see whether vishim agree most of them agree or perhaps disagree with this he jumped in and said the yid and the guy are on the boat the yid's going to be so we're not dealing with a razi the says what am I dealing with I'm dealing with a razi Because even once you if you don't own the anymore the even though MY ACCORDING TO IS ONLY ADDRESSING that assuming he's right they became tremendous. What do I mean? So I do the withinski the night of and then I do another during the day and that is by the bash. So it's over here comes and there's a whole there. So there there's a whole they're doing the whole and I'm the sh it's in the back. So, uh, I come to the Mak and I said, "By the way, Greg, I not only that, I have to sell you a bunch of animals because by the way, my brother, my brother is a has a farm and we want to avoid Bahar." So, in order to solve the Bur problem, we have to go ahead and sell shook this partnership in some of the animals. So, and then we're making a whole bunch of deals in reference to that. So they they're totally different at that point. Whatever got selling animals to item at the end I pulled out the I had a copy. So I went from being a to being so I don't understand the word and I was I don't understand but is it was that but we'll come back to it. What's an animals question like this? Let's say a person owns a farm and this animal needs to eat. So what they would do is they would do exactly what I was trying to do to avoid. They would sell the animals to the goi for pes. Well, hold on one second. Their bidd doesn't work to say why cuz I'm the is taking and giving it to my animal. I'm being na from Pes unless you tell me that the really worked. But if it's wake, I really don't own the uh um I own the the animal. I own the now I'm violating the because my B can't work on the that the is giving to my animal. Therefore, he did not allow that. The show is of the opinion that the is only predicated on the that there is no sorry that there's only that it's all predicated on the that preceded that was the position of the now now let's continue let's see if we agree with that so now I jump to the end let's go back to the beginning well clearly the kir of the bahag and the kir of the rash of seems to indicate that they're saying harab doesn't work. So then what what what are they saying? What what is the the the two is saying it is and works. Why? Because it's only a they're saying clearly not like that. They're jumping in. At least the Rashb and the Bah are saying, "No, no, no. This can't be a haram. This has to be a real and since it has to be a real therefore it can work on on the level, but it is." So, how do we resolve it? Okay. What I mean by it is, and you'll hear the words come out of my mouth. Yes. >> Uh, so regarding the animal, the animals being sold in what context? I'm selling in my case or the case of >> the case of the animal. >> My case >> the case of the animal consuming. >> So the case is I'm selling it's the guy's animal now. So now >> so the guy's animal is the guy's >> right. >> So who's being but if it's only if we say to that this never really happened. It's just a make believe >> har. So har means remove what happened is am I dealing with a potential dear in shar is work by not by that's a so he's saying let's assume what the real facts are make believe real facts is it's my animal it's my oh it's in har doesn't work if I'm a vat makes it that on the real world it's only since on the real world there's only that's why that's his but that's all predicated on saying that we're doing here is which I'm going to show you was not not necessarily agreed upon by many of the many of the good but now let's continue with the history so again you all you had was a tok you had a rash and avo and a bah say that you don't do har here comes the b and says how is anybody He goes, "I don't understand. It is haram." So he's embracing the haram. The B. I'll read to you the B. The B is um Why? He jumps in and says, "I agree." And the words he uses the there is no greater than this. So I'm going to get back to his terrors. I'm going to get to his ter in a moment. But clearly the Bes seem to embrace that it was our the other possibility the when saying that it's not our is a different type of Roma that we're accustomed to he said look at the to the to seem to say it was an accident the accord was that oh it didn't happen oh it happened every year it happened this year it happened last year it happened the next year similar So the is so his understanding of the was never to say question the valid validity of the but the har that's being referred to is is that according to the this was something that was never intended to be institutionalized. It was intended to be as the wording of the toaf something that happens by accident in the event that it wants a card. So that therefore the will address the B's question says how can you tell me that you can't do yeah because he meant didn't mean the he meant you can't the made a dispensation for an accident don't be and make your accident into your norm that's the disagrees says I don't care about that since he removed it entirely from what does the B the is jumping in and saying I'm asking doesn't really the the doesn't hit all the buttons doesn't seem to have real on both parties but as long as you are mo it's official What do I believe the means? I'll explain to you the is addressing or we do all these fancy the is addressing many that seem to do not be more in terms of the amount of but he says he's actually maker in terms of you have to do why so the comes and jumps in and says guys I learned this whole sa differently the m of is going with the following and I'm gonna explain to him based on a in the be in the beginning of in the beginning of is bothered by the following works occur some doesn't leave your until somebody else's theor seem to say works some holds it has to be done in so the ask a whole bunch of questions questions on how ba works. Every dan you I'll explain to you how ba works. There's a catch 22. Nobody should ever be over on why is if it's not mine. It's not mine. And the what does the say really technically I don't own them. It's not mine. Two things. So the rod says really I don't own the I'm not the owner of any of this. The makes it mine. How does it make it mine? Because it says you're going to be get rid of it. and comes in the says I'm an illness I doesn't work I don't CARE BECAUSE took it out of my already since it's our SINCE IT'S SINCE IT'S NOT MINE SO I just need to demonstrate THAT I'M TO THE TYRA THAT IT'S NOT mine and that's here comes the problem and says that's why we work because I don't have to MAKE I don't need the I need a qualifies to you hear the What is what's the but why of is if I pick it up put it in a box take it out of my bring it over to the guy it shows that I'm masculine THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE MINE I'm p so the on one hand the is I feel it is a har but I allow the har to work. Why I've picked it up. I've taken it out of my and given it to the guy. >> Is that like a >> it might even be high b. But it's basically showing I don't want it on my anymore. That's cars. >> Yeah, he it's not really Hefker because you know he wasn't Mafer. >> He was taking it out. You're showing that you're supposed taking it out. >> Yeah, but I'm giving it to the He plans on giving it back to me right afterwards >> in a sense. That's a >> in a sense. In a sense. But basically, it allows the is saying the words of the is I'm giving it to him. I know I'm buying it back from him, but as long as I took it out of my rash, which the way I I'm explaining that is based on this. Okay. However, once we have that, so then comes the sad and everybody says, "You got to take it out of your house." My wife's grandmother used to tell me that's what they always did in Germany. They boxed up all the comets and they brought thet to the guy that current fact. So now a this new idea that somehow I do a mak and it stays in my house is very new and we'll see where how new that is. But clearly the revising the tr the all said the common practice was that one should bring it out and bring. So what changed? How did it change to this new type of that it's staying in the house? So okay well it changed somewhat based on necessity. The Bach pointed out that in Europe the Jews had gotten into the liquor business into the yian sar business and the problem was they couldn't go ahead and sell this to the because they would have major legal problems afterwards. So it started out that it was a shat that they even though clearly the old mic was to go ahead and take it out of the house. However, I'll read. He says, this new idea that how I get it out of my house. Why? Because I sell to the guy and I sell the room to the guy also. Okay? Because he's says I don't understand something. The whole problem of why you have to be after is because she in the course of the day you're going to come across come you going to eat it and what about if I have a liquor bottle sitting next to me? He goes why for that too? And I was I he goes and he goes keeping your own should be a concern. So, but what happened? But it will explain to us when I when I refer to it as evolution. What do I mean? When it was viable to get it out of the house and you weren't getting it out of the house, your actions were not indicative of but then the person who was in charge of the went to the and was crying his eyes out. He says, "I don't want this, but I don't have a choice. I'd love to take it out of my but I'm going to go to jail. I'm going to get into problems with the authorities." So now, can I keep it? Can I make a So he went as far as it was plausible for him for the average Joe to take it out of the It was possible. Once it's no longer possible, now my actions do not contradict Do we hear that? So then therefore it evolved to the extent that the alab said fascinating. It was once again based on necessity. The alaba in Prague was m liquor but not beer. They said very simple. Okay. Some I don't know how many of my age but I remember about there used to be something called born on dating. I don't drink beer but there was a born on dating beer. It was beer was different. You wanted to show that it was not as old that it didn't get so old. So I think one of the old am I correct? One of the old beers used to have a born on date. They beer the bottom line in comes the robin says beer it's very simple. Use up all your beer and start all over from afterwards says which has to age. We didn't have a choice. So in Prague, the rules were the beer salesmen were not allowed to sell the and the wine liquor salesmen were. Why? Because it was all once again predicated on did you do everything you can. And if you've done everything you can, then they say fits very nicely. But a circumstance did not allow the wine sellers to do the sorry the beer the the beer sellers to do it or the liquor salesman to do it. Once it didn't allow it so then the mak this is how we'll get to the 20th century but this was in Europe. So then there became this type of mak that existed but still by and large people were were making alone as individuals. that was not institutionalized even by robot. Then slowly but surely they realized people were messing up on the making and what I mean by the raam was totally different. The ra understood what it said. So people even it's all sounds very different or very similar but if you make a the ra says it doesn't work if you make a and then he buys it back but it's not aai then it does work. So they found that they realized people were messing up how to do the so it became common practice that were making on behalf of the and that in order to avoid the improper but it still remained the concept of that the people were taking the individuals were still taking the out of their house the t already brought down the people areas I'm going to go a little bit further into the story where the story takes a very sharp turn is the following. So there was somebody that was moisted to this R on a RV. This is the byam. So think about it for a moment. So I do mak and there could be millions upon millions of dollars oft transferring hands in the mak. So somebody went to Thesar and said there's a tax transfer taxes aren't being paid. The Jews are doing multi multi-million dollars worth of businesses and they didn't sell they didn't pay tax on the way in and they didn't pay tax on the way back. So he wanted to tax him. So this thesizar did an investigation into this business dealings that the Jews were avoiding the taxes and this rub went and presented in front of the zar that this is a religious ceremony. It's not a mak this there's no real mak going on here and basically the zar investigated it and he found in favor of the r that it's just a rabbitical it's a religious ceremony. So the R then writes back to the now what do I do? I did such a good job convincing Lazar that it wasn't the real Mak. So now can I make a this is the shila he asked back to the cipher and think about it reality I want to understand do you really believe there's transfer taxes any taxes paid on any of these things so this was the sh that was asked to cipher so the response to that became a tremendous am because let me find to you the response so in comes the he says he brings the idea bring it out. He brings this idea of the fact that he didn't take it out of the but then the person was going okay so he had this story and religion says what do I do now I've proven to the He was arguing that the star is on that in comes and says maybe but not and theam and the have two totally different ways of understanding the end of the story. says listen, the Jew agreed, the guy agreed. I believe he has a right to enforce it. He says, and he has a right to enforce it, and if in the end it's fully enforced, there will have to be a tax. But he says, as long as the Jew agrees that the Mak happened, the agrees the mak happened, and it is enforceable in court if both parties try to do it. So I'm saying that's sufficient for me. >> Both are either one. >> I guess I would assume both. That again the Y is saying I'm I'm selling it. The guy is saying I'm buying it. They both agree that it can be enforced even though it will never be enforced in the court. He says but as long as it works technically that's sufficient. That is the position of the uh that is the position of >> that's what meaning that >> no he's saying I'll read it to you he says he says he says as long as it technically he could stand up in court the fact that I'm not going to enforce it is sufficient this is the But that that's a very high test for saying that you need that one that it has to be able to stand up in court. Here comes a difficult >> agreeing though. >> What they both agree if they come to court and both agreeing that it's a >> no but no what he means is is and if one would try to back out it would hold up in court. >> Of course then it means that the star is a that's what I think he's saying. See they both agree. They're both saying right now, we agreed. They're both saying we agreed. Now, what would happen if one guy would want to try to go out? It's it's a forcable court. Listen to what the says. None of our stars will ever work in that court. He's saying NONE OF THESE ARE GOING TO STAND UP IN COURT. He says in comes and says so the secular courts don't hold IT UP. WHAT'S THAT MY BUSINESS FOR? I'm trying to do. And therefore he says if the holds and the guy holds and if he would lose but then he says that's and it was fascinating to me. So when I do my it's written in English so he can understand what it is. I was like because I would think once again he walks in goes I don't understand the word they maybe sign a Hebrew document but is talking is because what is the soil it was inh wasn't in Polish or whatever says why therefore he goes he doesn't care he says I need something comes and says I need something that needs to work in I don't need it to work in a secular court. What do I believe the argument between it's this again if all I need is SO IN SECULAR COURTS IS STILL mine it comes is that true is that sorry true no it's not but the tyrant doesn't care about in that aspect. So what the is saying is different than the is requiring that it stands up in a legal document that will hold up here comes and say I don't why so the way I'm explaining it is is because if we go with the whole that we said for the that the entire's intention is what to show me that so my is based on what the best will say not what some secular will say And if in the this is not mine, then it's not mine anymore. IT DOESN'T HAVE TO DO with this is the position. So there's where am I at? >> 23 hours and 15 minutes. >> 15 minutes. Okay. So in the world, so as long as it would work. The problem is in the world of the cipher seems that it should want it even though he agreed he's allowing that there's no stample tax. We know that it's never passing but he wants it to be able to hold up in the secular accord. Okay. So now now but still how do we get to where we're up to today? How do we get now? Just for full disclosure, the coin was very much against it. The coin in his in the So the go not only was not to make the and this is the is the was that why do I say that that that that that that is a significant of the because there are many that bring down even if I not even if I wouldn't make the it shouldn't be any worse than anis and and the trash entertains that under certain cases honest shouldn't have a person being that is brought down by I forgot to break that he says that I can be on the other place okay we'll get back to it so now how did it evolve to these shop rights and these type of sales where did that come from so uh bungalow colonies anybody here go know woodridge The original that made was do you know where Santa where Santa one is? Santa one. There used to be a supermarket in Woodridge, New York, and the owner was it and it was the only supermarket for the area and they had tremendous problems of so wrote a cha to allow which was an unbelievable at the time and it's clearly you know as we saw this idea that was done for the for the surf and pragu Where is this extension that exists for Misha to make this type of >> So >> what's the problem? What's the >> I'm going to tell you the problem the way did it and I'll tell you how Rulski modified it and then we'll have to see. Okay. What what Raasha did was here I could the soup market was open said I'm going to sell all the before Pes. Now the id is still selling the ones. So the id is in's case stealing perhaps from the guy that he sold to or he's being whatever he's doing he's being on the kish that he's selling. But the stuff that's left over is not said I'm not here to solve his problem. I'm really here to solve the rest of the yin and woodrig's problem that they need to be able to have bread. So basically what he said is I'm going to make a on everything in the entire story the Yid is going to in the course of PES be taking back from the G whether it's geneva whether it's a whatever it is he's going to be buy I don't care about that because whatever the tok sold over pes obviously that y doesn't care I'm trying to solve the yen they want to buy after pes so whatever is left afterwards That's what I want the in comes many of the go put already talked about if a person does a and does does work with it it's a right that he never meant it that's many of the they all go how can you say that the meant this clearly he doesn't mean the he's doing business with it how you have no greater undermining of the statement of the das of the king after >> what is after he wants the >> oh so listen to what says is basically like what you said and I used I used I I believe I have to find I believe it's a to explain to explain a there's a truth a like this a person is looking at a cloth muza and he sees that the cloth muza is written on erased old cloth muza. So the person was actually and then rewrote it. So the sh was asked to the to the to the can I assume that it was written at or whatever can I assume the kash of the muza he says the guy's in a varian for the money that he wanted to say but I have no reason to assume he's not going to be a varian in the thing and I have a right to assume it's written and I can tell you it's the best muz but what he's basically saying is and unless the person has a reason to not want it then I have a right to come and says you're right the 40% that he sold he doesn't want the but the 60 that's left over at that point in time I want my kid to be able to buy it I want my customers I have no reason not to want the 60% it doesn't cost me anything so on that's going to be left that the want to buy after. There's absolutely no reason why the wouldn't be ming for that. So comes and says I'll do that. I'll go ahead and make this mak even though 40% of the mak is going to be this vat 40% of will be literally pushed off but on the 60% I want the for the >> he doesn't know what's going to be >> you have no idea doesn't know what's going to be >> he makes one large 40% that means being back fine but on the 60% of whatever land that's left there's absolutely no reason why the Jew And if we use clearly the if the Jew only has to be mas in Jewish law has to be you know what you want you're telling me my zeta my my my grandfather would be happy with me that I don't own this you want to make him happy oh you want to make the rabbi happy I can make people happy I'm asking in Jewish law I don't own it if the threshold is Jewish law then we clearly hear what is saying HE'S ASKING IN JEWISH LAW. I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN IT. NEXT PROBLEM. PASS THE NUTS. I'm done with it. That was basically's approach. So was m to this type of >> sitting there in >> well >> even though it's sitting there in >> those are all all cabbalical questions. Yes. In other words, it's even though it's in because saying toel is not I'll tell you what did afterwards because that was from Misha. That was with Misha and there was significant debate as to okay there seems to be m that are so then gets into you get into all the different laws. So I'll tell you what revelski did. Revelski created similar to what they do now with nursing homes and he basically sold the entire business and rented the entire business to the guy to the guy and the guy's paying him uh he basically Okay, I I I'll give the I'll do it quickly. I'll give the example then I explain how does it do it reverse. He didn't go on Pesak. They go over to a Hilton in Orlando and they say, "We want all your rooms. We want all your staff. We want your chefs to be cooking all the food for us. You know what we're going to do? We're going to hire them all out. Tell me how much the rooms are. Tell me which how much the staff is. Tell me how much. And I want you we're going to use your I'm going to use your liquor license. I'm I'm use everything that you have. I'm going to buy all these things from you. And then I'm going to rent it out to y goes to the entire pesak. The staff is still all the Hilton staff. It's all the Hilton thing. Everybody's working there. The owner still there running the whole place. At the end of Pesak, we collected all the money. And then you go to the guy. The year goes to the guy. I think I made about 200,000 this year. I netted. The guy says, "You know what? If we figure out all my my my employees and all my expenses, I think you only made 100. Let's settle 150. Then we don't have to do any accounting. He goes, "Okay, I'll settle 150." He goes, "Okay, fine. $150,000. You take it. I keep all the profits. I can that be done?" And that's perfectly legit. Basically the yid hired the guy's employees, hired the guy's rooms, tooki did the exact opposite. What he did was he brought the yid introduced to a guy said this guy wants to rent your facility, buy all your food, buy all your employees and take all your profits. He's going to run your business. Go away, take a two week vacation. He's running your business. At the end, he gets all the profits. He takes all the expenses, all the profits. at the end of the two two weeks we could make a catchment and you decide how much it is. So I happen to be a certain I did this with a nursing home the the head nursing lady walked away with like $25,000 and that was what she got for her share of the profits. Is that the number? Not normally. But reality is the ways did it was to convert the entire thing into a of the business akus of the area. So therefore there's no contradiction even when it's running if the yid is working as an employee of the guy. So that was Rebelski there to both um but this was an unbelievable evolution of it. Now I'll put one interesting >> how do we get from how do we get to today everybody selling to their own closet. So okay so so that's why a lot of the things evolved based on the bor and there are many people my father would not sell for that reason but basically that since it's dependent on so then therefore so that that evolution was at the time people started going to there are still many people that are not to do but Yeah, it's not it's not simpler and it is better in other words I have to give my away whatever I do have to be might advice there definitely would be and therefore people are very apprehensive the Taz talks about a certain one room but the idea of doing two inside a refrigerator and just like putting the top part of refrigerator this that's that's many price not very happy with that okay before I end with a lickle does anybody have any other questions? Okay. So, I'm going to do a lot of just for my own enjoyment now. So, basically the bothered by that what happens the story we had was a guy. What happens if I realize I have um I have a my own can I sell a for can I be the m on behalf of a You left your in my I open it up. I realize you've got it here. It's whatever it's already shabas. I can't talk to you. There's nothing I can do about it. Pes can't. Can I sell your ass? >> What? >> You assume he did? >> I assume he did or but he doesn't know about it. But even if he did, but he's still going to have so can I sell his no way I can get a hold of him. He's an seven. There's nothing I can do about it. Now I'm sitting with that cup. What do I do? >> What? >> So listen. I can sell somebody else's in comes the he uses the word and I'll explain to you why he uses that many understand it's a reports that I can be for a person shal okay does anybody recognize the names victim shi victim who was a here in in mi for many many years he sold the god so world I'm going to be mak the entire world I'm where did it come from so the listen to the mio again the mal He says a person could sell the what's the concept but at first glance this is a contradiction to holds that we say >> so how can you so there's going to be a couple of one is the second kasha is going to be the riffita in is if I'm for you then he wants to give it to me I'm being mach on your behalf the rift is I can't once he gives it to me he can't beer but it's not yours until you get it only makes it that can't beer the can beer why because it needs the das of the by the party. So if the yid didn't know about it and it only comes when the finds out about it's too late. If according to the riff the z only obligates the party that's there but doesn't obligate the party that I'm acting on his behalf. So then it's still what how does it know finally Frank asks how can you do in our cases victor he says but the person so bad the guy says I don't want it if he says they don't want it everybody agrees doesn't work >> get it back you want >> what >> he's going to get it back you want to >> oh baby but I'm saying no stop in all of our cases we do it for not from in comes the choice of rash says answers all three one thing says immediately and world but even if it's says we don't listen in comes the I think it's the writes on the bottom of the he says since so even if the fry is m is not mas if I sell it. It's because he doesn't realize this was his that he wanted to say. So that's the source of the meaning that people went around that were being the on behalf of God's in order to be people. It's an unbelievable but so mice is is it's unbelievable that the just the evolution how it changed or the dar and it definitely clearly was at least in the beginning was never intended as you said it was never intended it was never so but what I understand that's why it's so easy if you're going to incorporate the sorry the it really really is predicated but I will tell you that even with that listen to the both brings it was a dying he says he says nevertheless um he says where's the no sorry this I tell the people that I sell for I'm asking to sell because I think the big evolved but those people call me up and say I'm going to Orlando rabbi you need to sell part of my freezer cuz I need to have my Jerusalem pizza m chabas right after pes so can I'm going to go buy it I forgot to keep it at you know don't go buy new things on air pes to stick into your freezer because then that's clearly connecting your and that's being is it my own it's my own but the mice is that's why by the way And I've was told where the minute come to give a rub money by so there's a big in the can I be so the problem is I hire the but the he's got so many other things on his mind he lost the but we asking that there's a if he's paid you have a he's going to So the minute came to give him the money. So then I what I always said I said yeah but I don't sell anyway so I don't have to give you the money. That was a joke when I wasn't but I was no I don't have to take the money for it but the thing is here. Um, you're a super neoccra.