LATEST TIME FRAME FOR KIDDUSH LeVANAH LECHATCHILA & BEDIEVED - Shiur by Rabbi Nachum Scheiner

Today's shir is part two in Keshana. Last week we concentrated on the early man to make hidda as was relevant last month. We mamish made it by the last minute. So we spoke about when's the earliest you could. We said three shittas either right away which by the way somebody mentioned after the shir that in Ken Rabbi Ratenberg they do that and I actually verified I spoke to his brother and he said yeah last month they actually made keshana zanaka when we made it Friday night halfway into the month they did it right away in the beginning that's the first shittita second we said gimllayim and then we Zion. So that's the earliest in today's we're going to focus and elaborate on the end till when could you be mad? That's really what we're holding now at this point. Meaning to say is the earliest time the reason whenever you did it was already right away gimmel Zion even mabas maybe was him but till when could you make kid when is the latest time? So for this we have a gor is a goran sanhedrin. The garra doesn't say from when but the gammorra says till when. To when could you make kesho the moid when it starts the lavana is a little thin sliver a tiny banana and it gets bigger and bigger and bigger till eventually becomes the full moon. So the garra says told the there's no there's no break so to speak [clears throat] but the garra explains what is so the one mama says in other words once it's seven days in even though it's not a full brawl that's considered that it's no longer pum and the other mandari till 16 days in in 16 days in seven days or 16. So first of all in this in the Rambam the everybody pas like the second gives us more time not only till seven but till 16 days in What exactly does that mean till 16 days in? As we mentioned in the previous year, we count from the because we're we're referring to the moon. So it's not relevant to it's relevant to the so 16 days from the some learn that 16 days means 16 days. In other words, you have 16 days from the mid. Let's try to make it practical. For this month, the muid was last was not last month of Shabas, but the week before Shabas 11:56. So if you have 16 days, 14 days would be this month of Shabas, two weeks. Then you have another two days. So you have till Monday night, this coming Monday night, 11:56. That would be 16 days. That's the sheet of many some they bring the it's more famous for the sheet of the brings them and that's from the early but already it's brought in to understand the garra that you have six full 16 days this shita is not brought this is the longest time that you have the latest that you can make is a full 16 days from the tour is that when the Gmorra says it's in other words you don't have 16 days you have 15 days. So let's make the for that the was a week and a half ago almost two weeks ago 11:56. So you have 14 days would be this month of Shabas and then you have till next till Sunday night 11:56 15 days gives us a little less time than the and the says that wait a second I agree to the that it's that it's 15 days but even 15 days is also why because what's the concept of 15 days? A half a month [snorts] is if you learn not because a month is 30 days. So after half the month the moon already starts it was and now it's going back down. So it's too late to make hidd that even 15 days also is not exact. Why? Because a month is not 30 days. If a month would be 30 days, then I would agree to the you have 15 days. A month is a little less. The amount that a month is is 29 and a half 29 days 12 hours and 793 which comes out to be 44 minutes and in time wise. So a month is a little over 29 1/2 days says that it's a little less than 15 days because you split the TW not 30 into half 15 it's 29 and a half and 44 minutes into half comes out to be a little less comes out to be that you can make kiddos from the mid 14 days 18 hours and 22 minutes. You just you make the calculation. It's a little less. In other words, the ra shaves off another 5 hours and 38 minutes. Now, this is tedious of just a couple of hours, but it can make a huge as if you move back earlier what would come out to be now in this month. We said you could do till this tub by night 11:56 it's earlier it's 6:18 now 6:18 is still more or less okay to do if we're stuck till Sunday night because 6:18 is already night maybe it's not ram but it's pretty it's already uh gone into the night but we such a thing would happen in the summer 6:18 would be a middle of the day you would miss you would miss the so sometimes these few hours can make all the difference if you still have time very clear so we have over threeas of the you have 16 days the says you have 15 days a month is a little less than 30 days so at 15 days already the lavan is on the way down so for at the answer that it's not nicer. That little bit, those few hours, you cannot tell. Just like we mentioned in the last year that you cannot see the moon after the mos for sure, not for the first 6 hours, maybe even for the first 18 hours, you can't see it right away. So here also in the even though the mahaba gives like the garra says a solid 15 days and the moon is already on this on the way down, it's so little that you can't tell. So you could still make the braha. So we have three shittas. The shita that you could do it 16 days, 15 days or more that says a little less than 15 days from the mid which would come out for this month 618 Sunday night. If you can look at calendars it might be a drop different. It's not the scope of today's sh to go into it that these other and even when you and it's not it's the time zone. It depends where the the line of the hour is. It's really in Cairo, not in it's a discussion for itself. But we're going to go on the simple se on the simple of the ra. It's five a little over five hours shorter. So maybe have 6:18 this Sunday afternoon. It's important to mention it again what we said last year that the time of 11:56 the moid is in your mo in the world happens all over at the same time so 11:56 in your over here is earlier It's an earlier time and we said it last week Benz Shabas it being Zion Schllayim because Zion was Mat Shabas 11:56 but if you come out of Shu Mat Shabas at 6:00 6:30 it's not Zion so for that for that we said this part about Zion for that we said that you move back 7 hours and therefore when you come out at 6:00 It's already Zion Schllay. >> Let's say let's say >> why isn't it like a mirror image? The same that is in when when the when the mur happened should be exactly that same time in America. >> Yeah. So what time exactly if it happens in at 11:56 p.m. What time is it in America? >> It shouldn't work that way because we don't have a moon yet. It's still middle of the day. >> The moon is >> No, the moon the the moon. Wait a second. Sometimes the mo could be 11:00 in the morning also. That's when the mo is. You might not see it because it's the middle of the day, but that's when the mo is. So if the mo is 11:56 at night in your shalai init. So it's 7 hours at the same time by us which is 7 hours earlier. >> Doesn't matter where it is. >> Correct. So it comes out to be ara comes out to be ara for the man. What's the for we said the latest time let's say let's say you go to Rama what time did we say 68 something like that 6:18 but really 6:18 is all based off the the 11:56 if it's really 7 hours earlier then the man is not Sunday night at 6:18 it's 7 hours early it's the middle of the day in other words saves is going to be this. So this is important that says you should be you could be this again makes a very big would be like last month and we're running into trouble we didn't make yet the last night is mashab is technically Sunday night but if you 7 hours it's 7 hours earlier so it's really just shabas >> 7 hours early would be Sunday morning but correct morning you can't do it >> correct you cannot make shana by day correct very clear So maybe the last time you could do a Sunday mat shabas all night up until the morning. So we have over here very clear different shittas when the is what's [snorts] so bas the earliest would be this Sunday. What did we say 6:18? Yeah 618. What happens if you miss that time which really was very nega this past time this past kiddesh lavana when a lot of cli made Friday night some people missed that little window right at Friday night right after David there was a little window of the lavana and then there was again no lavana till many hours later which really came out that you missed the ram Oh, so the pim say you can rely on the you don't gain many hours but you gain a few hours as we explained. Sometimes these few hours could literally push you over to the next day. Sometimes it's the same night but sometimes it literally gives you till the next night to make the post gonna say brings in you could be rely on the and give you gives it some more time. What happens if you actually missed this as well also the you missed that cheetah as well that there's no uh you missed it the you missed this extra time. Could you rely on the give us actually a whole another day? So the if you look on the page in the says that no you cannot rely on you cannot rely on the to make a you could go with the to get a few hours more up until 15 days but to get another whole 24 hours you cannot rely on it. You cannot rely on that those shittas. You cannot. This was also very neg last month being that the last night was Friday night. Undisputable. The last night was Friday night and we're going to get to it at the end of this year about making a Friday night. If you could be on these that you have a whole another day, then you can make matzabas. Even though says you cannot rely on this to make for another whole day, there are that argue starting from the cipher. What I mean starting is that theamifer doesn't give us the lineacy of the whole day but theamifer gives an extension of 12 hours into the 16th day. Again, you have to, but sometimes it makes all the difference. But he gives us another 12 hours on top of the which means about 18 hours more than what the Rama gives another another 12 hours into the 16th day. Why? What? This is an interesting this is a new we had either the says 15 days the the other that say 16 days. What's this? 12 hours into the 16th day. So theam explains he was speaking about a time that there was a mafa and people had a hard time making kishan. It was very cloudy and people being like we mentioned last year that kidded Slavana is a schula it's a shira we showed some about it and people were exceptionally stressed out that they couldn't make keshana they were afraid they wanted that and as we know during co the doctors were saying that a is even more when a person's about it so therefore writes in the cha he writes that it's very dangerous a person to be under pressure because just not to be stressed out says you could rely and give a couple of more hours into the 16th day and he explains because up until 18 hours it's that the moon went down up to 18 hours after the moman it's not nicker a little bit to what we said in the beginning. The Rambam I think says it's the Rambam that you cannot see the mo the moon up until 18 hours afterwards. It just takes that amount of time to see any difference. Therefore, so therefore to end also very good up until 18 hours afterwards you don't see any change that it's going down. >> [snorts] >> That's the shittita of theam cipher. And yet to extend even more even more than what gives us it's the mo the mo his as well as his in the who is the they both bring it's also in They bring that you could be make like the we said the you could be be madish the whole 16th day. The whole 16th day you could be mand you can make which means you can make and even brings a mah that happened in those days I [clears throat] think they waited till after kipper that's its own discussion and from kiper was rainy and cloudy non-stop and they were nervous even about sitting in the suko came the first night sukus which is the 16th day from the and was clear and they were able to sit in the and do. So says you cannot make a bra say you could in this past month they relied on these sheetas relied they went with these shittas they didn't want to make keshana Friday night as we'll see not to [snorts] make keshana so mainly they made kushvana they made mozzar shabas mozzar shabas I'm not remembering now if it with for 18 hours another 12 hours I think even they were relying on this that actually gave the full 16th day it's clearly a if you can make on the 16th day so you should not be able to make keshana for that and of mush himself already brings up this point and he says When do you say this is a very important suff if you don't make the you still be the mitzvah. Yeah. You're not sure if you let's say coming up soon in a little over a month almost a month. So you lane again but when you lane again do you make a brah or do you not make a bra? So it's over there when you're laying again without the soak over here by if you're not is going to say that you cannot be the mitzvah of is the over here you do is true but it's only because you can still do the mitzvah but you can't do the mitzvah which means the bra itself is a mid. So you make the bra just to mention these yet another but not in the says I would say that the counting however you count the maybe not the ra because that's based off the yeah however you count You don't count from the you count from he says I'm not saying but I would have liked to say that it's from but that would actually give you even more time this past mid 1156 was shabas when was Monday and Tuesday so you you would get more time if let's say you count 15 or 60 day is one day >> one day Yeah was Monday. So um the was shabas and we give you more time up until Monday and then you count 15 days. You have even more times but that's not the >> what' you say >> the earliest month is also counted from the earlier you earliest month. You're saying that he says it's you would count his you have a good point. Very good. Very good. You're pointing out that when the earliest is last week's discussion would also push you yet later also whether if it's or whether if it's three days it's from the he's saying maybe it's would be from he speaks about double check he speaks He speaks about up until you're right. It's a good point for starters as well. Also, this is big. These are big and to you go this we do not go. We do not go till the 16th day. Pash this though the H of Mosha says you could pretty much most of do Friday night what happens if you miss and you're in a time that it's a suffic meaning to say is the says not to rely on giving that extra day what do you do so for that the it's only in a time when it's you might still be able to make brings in his on and brings from I saw others bring as well this of saying it from a gamas it's only when the still a that says that it's still neg to say if there is no then could even be to say the 20th day in the what do you what do you mean it's not it's totally not it's on the way down it's only when there is somewhat of a to go out with a garra a gamarra or a tour you read it out of a gamarra doesn't just mean you read it the braha the gumar brings the braha and you're learning gamarra you have to Say some words before my because if not so take out a and read it from the you're reading the gar. So it means you read a few my you take out the and you say the bra >> with name >> with Hashem's name you brought up a good point first of all everything what we're saying all the say always with this is to be able to say with hashem's name though it's a big it's a big shila if you could do it it's a that says you could actually when you learn the gamar theim Unless you're teaching kids, they have to know. When you learn the Gmorrah, even with you're not supposed to say Hashem's name. And for sure in the Gmorrah, the Gomorrah says what do you make? You do not say Hashem's name. are those that argue the init says that you could say what a that's an to say it to say from the gor to say instead of and you say that would be without the shame of malus but that's also questionable some argue and say just like you can't say toem when there's no You also cannot say the it's also if there's not you can't do it. These another this is a he speaks about what happens if you're not sure if you make a on you're not sure if he's the so what should you do so he says you say bye you finish the and then you say which would be the same also for you could finish that and they go with the only reason why it wouldn't be a full is because at the end also so the will help for the beginning I'm not sure if it's going to help for the end just to conclude for literally one more minute what's about making kiddos on chabas Now there's a lot of other that we could speak about. So why am I going into Shabas? We spoke last week about the earliest and this week about the latest. The reason I'm going into it is because it could be noa when we're talking about getting towards the end of the end of the time of kana which we all know happened last month that the last day was Friday night. So let's just go into it briefly. It's not brought in that you cannot do it on Shabas make on Shabas the po bring it later not to make on Shabas these different reasons we're not going to go into it now either just like you don't make uh you don't say on Shabas because you might carry a there's another reason brought because the dinners in he's supposed to dance he's supposed to dance after Shabas he cannot dance and I would say Yet the main reason that seems to be across the board is a kabala. So that reason I for sure don't know but it's a kabala. Aikaba not to make kavana. However, if it's the last nightm brings even if you do not make kildon on shabas for whatever reason if it's the last night you make kavana some y says he brings that his father made on shabas. He says not to make on Shabas, but his father made on Shabas when he saw it starting to get tight. So what we did last month was literally the last night. Some even say when you see it's getting close, you could also do Friday night. It's a cloudy couple of days and Friday night is let's say the third to last night. You can also do it. So that's just to point out but you shouldn't do it and you shouldn't do it even if it's the last night. But the say if it's the last night clearly clearly you make And that's not what we did. Says when you do it Friday night, you don't say the when you do it Friday night, you do dance. Even if you don't dance on shabas, you do dance. Why? Like the shan says just like we dance some. How do we dance? Because that's the to dance. Don't make it Friday night. Don't dance on Friday night. But if it's the last night you dance and lastly if you do it Friday night the mate frying brings that it's better to do it before kabala shabas better to do it before kabala shabas which I heard in others of marshall as well we tried doing it last this past kdana Friday night before kabala shabas but it was cloudy we were not able to mo I don't think anybody was able to unless they were running very very Even though it's it's already dark outside, so it's already shabas, but still it's better to do it before Shabas like he brings and wait before Shabas. So if it's not the before you dive in and then you do whenever you could do it >> before Shabas and if let's say you right before and then you have wherever let's say Mashabas let's say that sheet of Shabas so let's say it's an example let's say it's 40 minutes after you you should go outside whatever the time is when it's night to make even though it's already shabas you're not to do but you should rather go and do keshana take a break everybody should go outside of sh make kana and come back in if it's not there then you continue and you do it later so just to sum up what we spoke today is the earliest is less than 15 days you could do up to 15 days you look in some calendars they say and they bring the and then the aras which is bash And that's already a sha says not to make a it's questionable that you might be able to even extend up until the third man which means you have a full 16 days from the mid to make you have a wonderful shabas.