Kedushas Shabbos Shiur with Rabbi Simcha Bunim Berger - Inyan of Making Kiddush on Grape Juice

should be here. >> How about now? >> Yeah. >> Okay, let's begin. Good evening. Welcome back to another Shir on Shabas. Welcome. Thank you to Torah anytime for making this Shir possible so we can teach Tyra to Clausalis anytime, anywhere. Tonight's subject is grape juice for Kdish. We've been on the subject of kdish now for the last few weeks. We talked about standing up for kdish versus sitting down. We had a share on white wine versus red wine. We've had a share about how to hold the k with your palm of your hand and your fingers. So tonight we continue in the suga of wine or kdish and ask the question is grape juice acceptable to be used as kdish? If yes, why? And if no or if it's acceptable, but is it? Take a look on your opening page as we always do. Take a look at the opening page. We start with the Shila and the and then we'll go in for a person who it's difficult for them to drink wine. Did you notice how the can they drink mitsum? Did you notice the way the question was asked? A person who it's difficult to drink wine. You hear that question? That's the way they phrased it. If it's easier to drink or it's as easy or not difficult to drink wine. Sounds like from the question you should. We'll have to see why as well. We'll address that. Here's your By making grape juice, have you disqualified this juice from be considered yan? Does the process of making grape juice get in the way of what's called of what is categorized as they put in certain ingredients or they pasteurize the wine to a certain temperature which that Pasteurization stops the wine from being able to ferment and become alcoholic. So by doing this it cannot ferment which would therefore cause through the pasteurization of the liquid would take away the possibility of it becoming alcohol. If it can't become alcohol, it's still from grapes and it's still juice, but it's no longer capable of becoming alcoholic. Have you subsequently ruined it from being able to be a bipyagen and it became a shahak? There are grape drinks out there that you don't make a burriy on. You just make a shahak. Does mitzim fall into the category of one of those things because you've taken away the possibility of it becoming alcoholic. Therefore, it's lost its part of his question and therefore you can't use it as he says since it can't even though it can't become it can't ferment but it's no worse than what we'll see soon which means the wa the juice the wine that you squeeze and immediately Even before you give it a chance to become alcoholic, you already drink it. So, you took it out of the barrel prematurely. You didn't let it stay for an amount of time to allow it to become wine to become alcoholic. What is the den? We'll see that that is actually permissible. So, that's our question. If you do hold that mitz is no good, can you mix a little bit of wine in it and sort of bring back you know if I mix the wine with water it would be too diluted but I'll mix it with grape juice will I at least be able to that way re bring it to the level that you can make a berry priagen because now it's got alcohol in it. These are the shilas that we're going to discuss tonight. Okay. So let's begin. Turn rabbi please to page. It's one on the top and it's four at the bottom. That's your first quote. We begin with the gimra in the brings down. It says in the zor you should remember the shabas through wine sounds like at the day. says, "Wouldn't you say that the time of Kdish should be at night time because that's when you're sanctified and the Gor of course accepts that as a as a kiddish is at night time. As a matter of fact, I remember once upon a time when we had the yeshiv in Bridgeport many many years ago um Rabbi Epstein would make the Friday night kish the le shabas kish shabas in the morning because there were people who came to schul on chabas in the morning who didn't hear kdish on le shabas so for them the kdish on shabas in the morning was their first kish of the seventh day >> and therefore it wasn't the regular kdish rabbo that you make our kdish we know that's not today's sh about making a shahak where some people make kdish on shabas in the morning on schnaps etc one day we'll have to get to that to where that minute comes from etc but the understanding is that everybody who hears kdish or making kdesh on chabas in the morning has made kdish already on leo shabas so this isn't being the y you did it Friday night not everybody so in his there were sometimes people who couldn't make it for le shabas so but they were such people and they came on shabas in the morning so he had once told me he says you know why I'm making kdish this way because this is the first kdish that they're hearing Okay. But normally the kdesh of le shabas that's and indeed look on page the next page two on top five at the bottom all of the requirements the garra says there are 10 things you have to do on a in order for it to be in order to be the type of that's the most notice holding it up with your right hand etc. all of the it has to have in order for it to be kesh carries the same as a as well but the point which we're bringing out from here is that has to be mole with so now where does when the says what kind of wine are we talking about what constitutes wine. Turn please to page to number four on top seven at the bottom. It's a quote from the Gmoranabas. bottom of the page, you can see where the gray area is. The type of wine you need to use is the kind of wine that would be appropriate for. So the wine of your kdish should be wine that you could pour on the misbeh. And now the Gmorrah goes through a conversation about which types of wine are kosher and ple says rashi over here at the bottom of the page. Three lines from the bottom. It's a which the says to cl it's actually you bring me your inferior quality something which is good. And we're talking about that you can make a just because you can make a barrier doesn't mean that it's so what's no good is going to explain but in the we learn something about nonalcoholic yanim look at the shock of attire of the gimarra What's it coming to if it means calls that tush which I think means like freshsqueezed wine grapes more accurate back to the gimar you shouldn't bring it if you did it's cauter the meaning on if it's good enough to go on the you can make on it as long I never said it has to be on the I just said it has to be for the says the therefore Let's go back to Rashi. Something which causes a person to get drunk. Now, why is it? So, we don't have page two over here, which I think they should have, but if you but if if you take a look on page two, we'll at least have a quote in a moment from the rashbam when we see it more from some of the other that says that when you take grapes and you squeeze it and you make it into the grape juice that's on the way to fermenting. So it's to become yin which will be alcoholic. So it's in the ballpark already. It's the right brand of of of wine even though it hasn't become alcoholic yet but it's already royulak and as such you can already make a burriagen on it even though it practically did not yet become alcoholic but it's in the ballpark as we'll soon see when it started off it's good and if you catch it Then for sure it's good. question will be what happens if you now do something to it like you cook it, you pasteurize it or you put in some type of sulfate or something like some some types of m of uh it's called um in the of a white dust a sulfur or sulfate that causes that the wine will not ferment and won't become alcoholic. So therefore what happens then did you ruin it now or as we'll see since was it stays roy that's going to be the subject here taka let's take a look page five eight at the bottom wine that comes right out of your barrel. Not only that, this a person can squeeze a cluster of grapes and put it into a cup. Squeezing the gentlemen said that's not alcoholic, is it? But it is the juice of grapes and you're making a brigaguffin on it. >> Here doesn't mean that's correct. >> Okay. >> That's right. That's right. Okay. Take a look at over there in iron raast like one but it smells bad. Gula or open wine, right? You can't go ahead and make kdish on those things. But you could be madesh on this. Okay. Moving right. >> When he squeezed the grapes, how long before shams did he do it? >> You didn't do it on >> do it on. >> So it's beforehand. So what's the difference from is that the is that he just it didn't even have a chance to start fermenting. >> You said that you said we already said that >> that that's that this is coming from the gim. This is the the value in this is that you see it's you're right I said it but I said it you can't ask but you could pass when it says in the >> why said what how how do they make that connection >> how they know where did that come from okay that we'll get to in the at the end when we'll talk a little bit about the the other parts okay about I need a for over here. This is one of the I believe one of the is page six number nine at the bottom. When you grapes are bur but the juice that comes out of grapes is a prefen right why so the gorus addresses that and says that the wine provides two things that is special number that grapes can't do number one so it satiates a person number two It's mis drinking eating grapes won't make you happy. But drinking wine and intoxicating a person says over there and like it says it really is not Still you still make why it's not bringing you the said what made special was the fact that it's if it's then it's not alcoholic. So where's the but give it a little time and it'll ferment and it'll become because you haven't done anything to get in the way. The only thing you're doing is just drinking it early. So it's the brand and it's the type that has potentially in it that good enough since at this point it's already drinkable. Therefore, so even though that the alcoholic process hasn't actually started yet, but the shame y is already there. Now, what happens to grape juice? How does grape juice not become alcoholic? There are two ways of stopping. One is called bishel. That's by pasteurizing. The other way is by mixing in the sulfrits says one. Two. We're reading. I'm continue reading the same page. I haven't gotten off that page because you've now cooked it. It will not become. However, he's quoting this, I think, from the when you did originally squeeze it. At the moment that you squeezed it, it was a liquid that could have been alcoholic. So at that point in time, the shame was as it says in as it says in the Gmorra when you squeezed it immediately. And as we saw in the if you wanted to pour, you could do it. As long as you haven't ruined it from drinking, it stays with the same. This is the of the quoting quoting the Since he says that has a status of being a type of liquid considered wine, remember I told you we needed that. It'll never become like which means this is a type of wine that if it could have been alcoholic when you originally squeezed it. It could have been alcoholic. So when you squeeze it, it comes out like something that's categorized as it stays. That's the not everybody holds on this, but that's the he regarding the of this type of grape drink. This this this type of grape extract that cannot become fermented can't be called alcoholic says in the aliop and this type something similar you make a shah says the wine this type of wine and then you put into iter You immediately add this is the sulfit when you add this ingredient. This sort of freezes it keeping it as as sweet as he wanted. You then cook it right be about yades and this will stop it. You've added some foreign object that's not allowing it to become alcoholic. By doing that I'm skipping two lines, five lines from the bottom. Meaning if you just heated it up, you cooked it but you didn't put in any other ingredient. So then it doesn't lose its bar priyagraph. If you put in another foreign ingredient so you're sort of like you're destroying what the wine could have been. You took away it. That's what it says over here in the so he's being how does the grape juice become grape juice? Which would mean according to this opinion that if you want to use wine grape juice, you'd have to find out how did they make this grape juice? What was the process? Was it just a pastor doing um cooking it? What? Cooking it. Or did they add something? Indeed, if you look on page, go to page 11. Just flip one more page. It's still in the same opinion. If we h since he he said that there was a grape juice that when you squeezed it it was roy to be grape juice and therefore it has a even when you cook it and it cannot ferment anymore that's fine in came that says it was a he was talking about putting on it. He they was talking when he actually even put it on the grapes. It could never become. Therefore, you end up with two things that are called, but they're they're so different. One is aim that you're making a barrien, which would be kosher for kdesh. The other one would be a grape drink because of the ingredients that were mixed in lost the name of yan and is therefore a shah that's what the wrote of but when I told my rebi about this he said he shot down this and said if it can't be wine said what do I care what is it help me that once upon a time it could be wine gish now it can't be alcoholic what do I care if you put in the sulfate or what do I care if you cooked it what you did was change its composition you changed what it is it does nish good he said if it's good they're both good and if they're no good they're no good there's noina that's said but not everybody held the rebel that was yash's opinion >> he also says it doesn't have to be alcoholic now. >> Well, let's see. >> Meaning if you squeeze it right now and you drink it, >> that's does state because you didn't do anything to it. >> He said, >> "Oh, because you didn't do anything to it." >> It doesn't have to. >> You didn't do anything. >> Not that it's alcoholic. Now, it can be >> you right because right, but there the case when you squeezed it, you didn't cook it and you didn't put sulfur in it. So it's better >> correct >> than the cases that we're talking about that were already manufactured and bottled. >> So saying that you don't it doesn't have to be alcoholic. It just has to be able to become >> That's right. That we correct. Now we're not done yet. Go ahead to page 10 on top, 21 on the bottom. This is it's actually a he of the previous page. This is B. Some of these we actually learned in the previous you can make Kdesh on cooked one. You see where I am >> page 10 on top 21 at the bottom. >> 21. You could make and there are those who hold that's the I believe that you cannot make kdish on them that you cannot says the if the other wine is not as good your mushel wine. Now don't forget mvushel is alcoholic. It is because you know it is alcoholic. It's not the mushul that cooked it and stopped it from becoming. It was a mushul but it still stayed a so therefore it's it's it still qualifies for wine even though the raam held that even when it's no longer y. So he held that ruined even the alcoholic brand. >> Okay. But we don't hold so we don't we don't hold that the bishel will take away its kaya of yan especially if it's alcoholic. >> What's the dash? >> Dash is because it has another flavor to it. >> Flavor. >> Yes. Now so how do we pass? We're going to spend a little time with Rev Sternbles there. This um this booklet quotes Rev Sternb extensively and he also gives us some historical background. If you go to page 13 on top, which is 24 on the bottom, the vah are from from Revit and Alf. He wrote about it on and he wrote about it in PES. We'll get quotes from both. Many people make on grape juice. But there are different suggest not the kind that they put in the means different ingredients that would keep it mish that um preserve >> preserves after they squeezed it. They put it the mits into a book and they locked it up. And now he goes over some of the stuff we mentioned earlier as a little our present day discussed grape juice by putting in these preservatives. It stops it from fermenting. Can you still make a when you put this in which we saw earlier? They put in this lavan so that it shouldn't ferment the is the by putting in this you turn take away the of the was the of the and he was also he was had the status And if a guy touches it, it won't become right because if it's no if a guy touches it doesn't become It was a case where they introduced the this stuff while it was still in its grape state before they even squeezed it. Says When you originally squeezed it, you made it into a grape juice that could have fermented and then shame. If you would leave it alone says of it would stay what it doesn't lose the shame afterwards. That's a big that that said even if it didn't change was as long as the process was grape juice which became a juice that could have become wine. Even though you introduce these foreign um preservatives afterwards, it doesn't lose the shame. That's him. But as I mentioned earlier, Rebel disagreed with therefore you can't make on it Therefore, I think between the two, although Mazan said it was permissible, but Rebel Yash said it is not. >> Okay. >> Talking about grape juice or even wine that they all the wines today are sulfite. So, it's going to >> Yeah, but it's but it's alcoholic. >> Yeah. But took it out of the g of grape, >> but it's so it has that dinner with the kash of wine that had the gumar. We quoted B said why was wine because it's so that's the of the so even though put in sulfates now but it waited for the alcoholic process to happen therefore it categorizes as I've seen people say there's two types of some that put the thing in and it never becomes fermented and and therefore you should be and not make a a prayer and just make a shaky and they put it in and they take it out before it becomes mitim and then actually it says if you leave the thing open, it could become wine. So that's for sure good. Leasa, I'm going to skip ahead for a minute. li up. He writes on page 31 at the bottom where the gray area is. known as the brisko. All of them. They wereis. They even drank it not for if he's healthy. If he could drink wine, if he can add a little bit of wine to it to give it a little bit more of a so it has a little bit of an alcoholic taste to it. That's the best. Okay. Now back. If you back up on page right over there, page 30 says, "Whoever listens, even though some of the people listening could have drank wine, But it's not going to ruin it the fact that someone else meaning if I have a mig that I want to make kdesh only on yan but the fellow making kdish for me is making mitz of him. So if I decide oh I can't be with that state you don't have to be so if Yen is making on something that he wants that you want wine you could be with Kdesh because what he's doing is qualified as Y and therefore I want to let's um jump ahead. We're running out of time. Page 33. One more time. back to and now he adds a very interesting line and they seem to enjoy it even though it's not the sim that the gimar mentioned earlier which is alcoholic by nature and brings a stickickle of a buzz But you should try to find those type of grape juice that no was put into it. And then And then addine, put in a little bit of wine and then you've changed it. If you want to be going to allas, that's the best way to do it. And then you know what that means in Hebrew? There's nothing mixed in. It's unique. He didn't want to do any brand naming. But there is these type of grape juice that they don't put any preservatives and that's the right one to do when they squeeze it. That's something which is perfect. They squeeze it. They put it in. And that's something which is like the case of the you squeeze the wine. We take two minutes. If you have the safer of the maral and sukus and chapter three discusses and kush. I quote a moral over there that explains that the dog has 10 different in it. And the maral explains and the mar explains in the gimra how the 10 of parallel the 10 things that the should have when we go from from the weekday to a higher elevation of reality when we go to shabas kesh and that's the catalyst that takes our world from a threedimensional sixday world into a world that is one step above which isn't just st after three dimensions that's the maximum of this world there is however there's an eternal life that has been invested in us and that shabas is the of that eternal life the catalyst to go from into is the Mar writes equals numerically and also conceptually and physically because says the Maral you can Eat grapes from today till tomorrow, but you won't get drunk. Where's the wine? It's besid in the grapes. It's there somewhere, but you have to figure out how to get it out. Since it's there beside, so it has a to be mighty side. Something that is there beside has a when it goes into a person to be mighty the and the of the bria is that this bria what you see as a three-dimensional world is not three-dimensional as all the bria is that it's connected to a higher reality which is beside in the has The mighty the of the and take it from since the is in the it has a uplifting breaks from today till tomorrow. You're not going to be you might get a headache and you might face you might get a stomach ache. But if you drink wine responsibly that's the person that is the catalyst of taking us from has that to do that and that's the catalyst of the shabas. Okay, we'll learn more about theem wishing everybody a good rest of their week. That's good.