Bartered Berachos, Switched Sisters, Yaakov's, Yosef's & Azazel's Goats - Rabbi Weber Shiur

million years that I would have never seen in in in seen here in Muny. >> We're going to dedicate this year. >> Oh, for my my father. Father is very ill. Things should go in the right in the right direction. Things should go where they need to go in a way that's without pain. Father-in-law. >> Father-in-law. My father isn't here anymore. Father-in-law. >> Um, so I I think sometimes we make our own problems. I've I've seen people, you know, talking about Gim, acting towards G in ways that are really >> not respectful. >> Yeah. uh and it causes us problems. You know, I I'll share a little vignette in my sh in Toronto. I I don't know that it would even be on the agenda here. I'm not such a film buff. I don't know so much about films. I've seen some not so such an ignoramis. There was a film put out many years ago called Paper Clips. Does anyone has anyone heard of it? >> You heard of it? So, it talks about um the Holocaust, but it talks about non-Jews who who >> Yeah. They collected who sheltered Jews during the Holocaust and there were I mean the reality is 70% of Jews in France survived 50% in Belgium survived 80% in Italy survived and that had a lot to do with non-Jews almost everyone in Denmark survived in the east not and the questions are why Eastern Europe was more anti-semitic but um it's it's not true that every non-Jew is bad and is out to her Jews and I remember sometime during the film The question was raised if the things would have been reversed. If there would have been a rule that every pole is killed and every Jew who shelters him is put to death also, how many of you would have sheltered a pole? And they looked around the room and the answer was probably no one. Like how many people risk their lives or their children's lives to shelter somebody else? So for sure they're anti-semits. For sure they're anti-semitism. But for sure there are plenty of decent non-Jews. And I think sometimes we we make the problems worse by acting inappropriately. I've seen I've had conversations that I were were really troubling to me and and it's worse in my than it is in a place like Toronto. It's for sure worse. It's like aettle here. And this this sort of close to I think the Christianity belief, the Christian belief that they can't hurt people or they shouldn't hurt. >> Yeah. this and Christianity has made a tremendous moves towards reconciling itself with Judaism you know in the 60s Christianity reversed its classic approach um and I I think you should know if you look at some of theorus on yum kipper I think you'd be surprised so again I'm taking it in one direction I'm not telling you that you will all agree but I want to talk about the two goats did we ever discuss the two goats to this year did that ever come up >> briefly mention >> did we ever discuss it I'm I'm I'm not sure what be I don't yeah I recall certainly we didn't develop it fully but I want to start with the background I want to go through the sources so it's going to start with um but before we go to the goats it's going to start with a little bit of Jewish history but let's start with the goats so what does tell you one take two goats so you take these two goats now the again the words are so critical right the doesn't say um okay it doesn't raism would have been fine. Okay. Why? So the garra tells you the is extra. Why? So the gar tells you these two goats have to look alike. They have to be the same height. They have to be the same color. They have the same val. Same same same same. Very much the same. Um now these goats then are twins. I mean they might not be twins per se, but they evoke twins. When you think about twins in the Torah, who were the two most famous twins? >> And the P is very explicit about them. And that's one component. What is the other thing that we know about these goats? What are these goats called? And it's interesting. It's an extra word, not isimism. It's almost like the means. I mean s goats are hairy. That's how it sort of became the word for goat. But s is extra. It's almost if it's meant to catch your attention. What does the word say revoke? >> Okay. In so many ways. Okay. Um as of lives in a place called harer. Maybe it's house because there was a lot of grass growing maybe for maybe because of as s grassy. Oh yes. Yes. Okay. Look at the next line. Monula got he was >> was before after they called it >> after. So there's different readings. Right. Right. Right. Um or he was very hairy. He was very wellformed. And that would mean I would venture to say that sort of evokes that he's a very material person. Right. As is all about lust, about hunting, about rape. That's the right um cader. And then you know that really defines Asus's life. When Yakov is about to take the brahos, then there's this dilemma. How can I pass as he's here? I'm not. My father will see. So um so you know you have these two goats they're twins a component that's critical and I think this maybe we touched upon it here a component that's critical to the discussion is that um the two goats were called not just is sisim they were hearing goats and so the medish and theel following in that tell us these two goats are clearly meant to remind you of Jacob and right use the word sir you they're similar It's Yakov and Asov. Now the Medish doesn't take it in a good direction and the Ababanel perhaps also not the simple reading and I think >> As I don't hear Jacob >> well so the good good the Abel develops it. You're saying the isov but not Jacob because Jacob is not he's an ishalik right um so theel focuses on that so look at theel okay is okay and again is very lengthy so I chose excerpts from these two goats they were twins born at the same time and then he says well is the unseer look at this Isa was very hairy. But what about Jacob? So the plays with this ingenious but really obvious once you think about it in Hebrew there's a whole world of oscalos. You're catching words that sound like and s close. It may be a little bit of a force but the core idea of the fact that the twins the core idea of the heariness is so critical and you will soon see the sear evokes yakov also but but this is the ababel trying to make it work. Maybe it's a little bit creative. I mean, I can hear that you can disagree, but I can hear how you can fire. >> Well, I I'm not even sure that he's saying that. He's just saying they're twins. The P is saying twins. Um you're trying to evoke. Even if Yakov wasn't Seer, Ser plays such a big role in his life. Maybe the defining aspect of Yakov's life. You know, people sometimes have a defining event in their lives. That defining event can be a career, a mar there's a defining moment in a person's life. It could very well be the defining moment in Yakob's life is gene abra. We'll discuss why. And that involved even though he wasn't s it meant dealing with sir presenting him as >> even though he was s then also he was dressed or he was dressed as sore so there's so much you can develop and theel you know and the isel is not a who tries to push something into them reonum I think I think again please don't only listen to me I think that rishonimum are less locked into boxes than we are you know you go on a trip and you travel through Europe and you pick up souvenirs. If Rome is the first city, you have a lot of room in your suitcase for souvenirs. But if Rome is the last um city, there's no room in the suitcase anymore, right? Because it's full. We've been dealing with for so long that it's full. We don't have so much room. There are things in place. We do I think there was more leeway. I think I think I may be wrong. It's a theory. But Rabel is open to ideas. He and if something doesn't fit, okay, doesn't fit. I think he feels this so much about Jacob that s maybe that he's okay maybe that he's I'm just checking my phone because my father-in-law uh maybe because um because he's the unasive maybe because he's s maybe because he presented himself by being here there are so so many may but the works with and the truth is it's the medish also and it's not just the medish it's a medish raba very important to know which medish is being quoted some are authorit more authoritative than others some medash aren't really madrashim you know some of these people quote a medish and they really mean a some of the um so the metro shaba is early it's the period really almost the period of the tanom it's very not tan but really gum tan is an overstatement that's not quite true but it's it's it's very authoritative so um so it it the medish rabbit develops a deal okay is hey nice okay so he but the medish explicitly the umel takes it in a bad direction. You have the two of them, but one goes to a good place and one goes to a bad place. As is pushed off a cliff, we're rejecting him. Jacob stays in the mishk mdash. He's treasured. That's the kind of similar to the two little here. I'm not sure if we ever developed this in a maybe this this idea came up. Maybe not. I don't even know. >> Yeah, >> it's kind of similar to the two little ears that come out, right? >> Sure. Sure. Basically, we're giving you from the ego. We're giving you we're giving as something. We're giving the the to stop. We're giving you something. Stay at >> But we're separating. You know, we're good, he's bad. We're separating. I want to now digress towards a topic that we didn't touch upon this area but it's it's it's something you see in rishonim not so much among contemporary thinkers and you see much more in midrashim early midrashim gimaris are are very comfortable saying the of us were exceptional extraordinary human beings but they're people and they make mistakes and if they would make mistakes they would be irrelevant because you wouldn't be able to learn anything from them and there's a medish I shared I didn't share it about Jacob I think but I've shared it about other situations it's a very very it's actually earlier than a medish it's very early um it's a p that say in certain jewels and that p wonders why took so long to give us the Torah I mean the world is about the Torah it wasn't given to us till we came to our why not given to us earlier so we touched upon our rum and the aada right the medish goes through every great figure who lived from Bria Solum till Matra and a pointed that each of these people was great but there was a terrible mistake and because of that mistake he could not be the person to transmit the Torah we spoke about the Aada that was the discussion we had here um I think we spoke about Noah maybe um um >> right but what did Jacob do I don't think we spoke so much about Yakov what did Jacob what Yakov is such a big saddic like why wouldn't Yakov be a a good recipient of the Torah What did Yakov what mistake did he make? >> Taking the brahos. >> He he stole the >> but he was supposed to do that because his mother told him to do that. Well, who said his mother was right? And the truth is um we discussed this. I think you raised this. Um I I think so. Was it really Yakov who want to was it really Rif who said you should steal the brahos? Who said let's steal the brahas? >> I think she should have. Yeah, >> I don't think so. I think we're raised with that because um I think we sort of want to shift um judgment away from Jacob towards Rifka. Maybe because she's a woman. But get theim Rifka is saying it's your father's giving brahas. >> Be afraid to say don't be afraid just do it. >> Get a braha. And then Yakov says, "My father might um touch me." We got a balor here. Um and Jacob says, "Well, I'll come across as a trickster." Surf says, "Okay, if you you're afraid to deceive your father, I'll help you." But alike, but truth be told, the direction towards theft is really more Yakov than Rifka. Rifka says your father is giving brahas. >> Yak is called the trickster. Yakov is criticized. No one says Rif is the trickster. >> Well well but in our minds I think I mean you could I mean I think I remember the >> right right. So she says your father's present yourself you'll get a bra. Right. Let's go back to bidding. Um, okay. Go ahead and go and bring and I'll make present yourself and get a okay and and he'll give you a braha. She does not mention, right? It's not yet. Not yet. And that also is the point. But she doesn't say anything about deception. Yakov says, and she's maybe not even suggesting that he steal. She's saying your father's giving brahas. Get a bra. It's bra day. >> You get your own bra. It's got the one that you need. >> There's no it's not. Again, you can read this in many ways, but there's no clear suggestion of deception. Yakov says, "Well, I'll come across as a thief, which means Jacob is the first one who's bringing it in, not >> Rifka." That's Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, he's one, and we use that in the Now, I'll tell you, you go through the madrash. The majashima are surprising and the truth is I understand why in schools to little children they're not taught. It can't be too confusing. But um it's Yakov in the psukim who mentions the deception not Rifka in our minds. Stop a group of from people who are educated they'll instinctively assume Rifka. It's not true. It's not there in the PK. It's I think some of the um guilt has shifted away and we have to ask ourselves why this developed. The midrashim actually are very forceful. Um, and I think this is really important. So there's this kadusha which I've shared with you in relation to others where the kush is Yakov did not get the braus because he stole the braas which means clearly there's some level of um impropriy. Now no one is god forbid saying yakov did anything terrible to yakov. This is a complicated situation. Um yakov was the oldest son because yakov had bought the as renegad. Um there were so many reasons for Jacob to get the braha. As may have been forcing his father, Ibanz says Yizuk was poor and As was sort of, you know, it was sort of locked into Rashi saysukum that in the end really wanted Yakov to get it. There was really no deception when Yakov stood there knew that's really the simplest reading. It was also also the fact that that is supposed to be he was supposed to be >> that's >> but yeah >> he forfeited his right because it was supposed to be his aspect but he gave up his giving up. So there's >> Jacob that's why it says >> so it was very comp was a great man who had good good reason to steal the braha >> but was it a simple right or was there something maybe a little bit wrong maybe it could have been done differently the midrashim that excoriate >> gave him the >> she helped him steal >> why >> because once he's saying that I'm going to do it a mother stands by her son but if you look at the pukim so this week in debate it started ya was the first one who suggested but it's not even critical if they started with with Rifkco or it started with Jacob and again could be Jakob um um Yitzk was in full agreement there's strong reason to say because you have to ask yourself I actually wrote a little piece on this um Yitzk was also a great man isn't it odd that you're standing in I mean a father recognizes his child I mean if this so Yitzk is a great And because otherwise he wouldn't value his braha. And he's having a long conversation and he's touching his son and he can't tell which son it is. He's going to >> call me. >> Yeah. And and he's going to he's going to be tricked by a little bit of goat here. And the whole it doesn't really read well. >> Say he wasn't tricked. He he wasn't tricked. He was saying the voice is Jacob and the adam that are supposed to help Jacob are as but now it's Jacob. >> Right. So, so one reading and one reading is is that Yitzkit was in agreement all along real was Yakab played along >> all the time. He only knew by touch. >> But when you're blind, your other senses work better, your hearing works better, your touch works better, and we're dealing with an exceptional human being. If it's an average person, a person who is mediocre, >> but we we hold you an extraordinary extreme. So there is a line um and you know I there's a book coming out in a few months. There's an article in this that um Yitzk was fully aware that it was Yakov and he was actually being saved. He didn't want to give the brah but he was he was you know sometimes you're older and and some and you're bullied. He was being bullied by Asv. So Yakov did something knowing that his father would realize there that would be one very I think very elegant way of reading the story where everyone emerges really and in a dignified way. Yaka wasn't really stealing. Yet wasn't really blindsided. Rifka wasn't really tricking her husband. Otherwise, it really it reflects terribly, right? I mean, you have wives, right? Your wife would trick you like this? I mean, in a in a normal marriage, do people do this? And do normal children do this to their This is a guest all the way from Montabelloo. Do normal children do this to their parents? I'm not talking about Sadik. Normal, right? Very difficult to read it literally. I'm cognizant how it's read. >> What? That's how families fights start, >> right? But but it's Yakob and Asim. I think there are many decent families where people avoid fights because they know how to so that YaKob would be involved. I just again I'm checking um um so I I you know what so that that but that's another discussion. Okay. What's critical is is that there's a whole long list of madrashim that excoriate yakas dealing with brahas that are very there are some that are very positive very supportive some that are very very forceful okay and I want to share two with you again I don't know what came up in the past what didn't but it the the end result is what I want to lead you to it's you know something I'm passionate about so look at the 11 is the one where Jacob loses out kabal satyra because of navas abraas okay um it's this poem where this um Malik, this figure stands on the why didn't you give the Torah to to Afra or tok and each one has his mistake. Jacob's mistake is look okay look at the it's it's poetic um so on so forth okay and and because of that he um he lost out midrashim are very forceful there's a message that says that later on we suffered in in we suffered in paras terrible story of there's payback because we caused ace of pain. There's u there's a medish that says and again I you know the older I get the more I retreat from literalism maybe it's sort of the natural progression because you read you taught these stories as children in a way it's damaging almost you should know there are some schools in Israel the tatili schools where they've you know they teach kids but they try to stay away from all the madrashim because what you do is you paint something factual in a child's mind and and it sits there and then 20 years later, you know, it it can be something really unhealthy. You know, our school system works the way it works. You have to work within a community and within a framework. But it it it's a little bit problematic. So there's this horrible story, you know, just the fact that the did itself is a subject of discussion. Why they did it, okay, that needs a but then to do something so horrible to their father to deceive their father, you'll say, what are they going to do? But there's a message that says that they took um what did they do? They took his coat, Yseph's coat, and they dipped it in blood. Why? Because um their father tricked his father withism. So they were going to do the same. Which decent person does that? First of all, if they knew what their father did, very possible. It's a story that likely spread. But why would you you know you're in a situation where your brother is probably dead >> but they doing that for that reason >> but but why connected me but but the med says they chose a serism because of that >> why would say >> yeah but why would they do that >> why they would why would the med suggest they would >> so what the medish is suggesting I would say the medish isn't talking at all >> right so Brett I would say the medish is no one was there how does The med know what happened did they? So I think what the med is saying is the med is talking about what's going on inside the med is speculating what were they thinking Yseph may they may have thought that he's dead right another discussion one you know one line rabies they didn't really sell him I think it's the most elegant way we discussed this right they didn't really sell him they um they um they they stepped away and when they came back he was gone and they thought he had been killed and and and they took his garment and they dipped it in blood and what are they thinking well we're deceiving our father. It's so terrible. But how could they not think of the fact that their father had deceived their own father? They were locked into this. But they felt that it it, you know, it's coming back to haunt him because of what he did. It's the way people think. I'm doing something terrible to somebody, but maybe I'm doing it because he did something terrible to somebody else. What they did um they they used the blood of because that's what they had. Not because they were trying to hurt their father. Not because they were trying to sort of step on terrible memories, but they used the gizm because they were shepherds. That's what they had. But when they're using gizm, what are they thinking? They're thinking, "Oi, what he did is coming back to haunt him." And then another this maybe we shared, maybe we didn't share. Um but um the other is is a awful metric, but again awful if you read it literally. um you know in in a marriage the the you just don't say bad things. I I think I mean just you know I've you know you see a lot when you're in the pulpit and one thing you tell I tell a young couple always is just even if you're angry once you express something negative it just gets worse because they they do these studies on people and they express anger it it just it doesn't help it doesn't help it just makes it worse. Women never forget. >> Uh um right. But I'm just saying when you say something bad, it just even if you're angry, um don't vent on a spouse. People do people and it it just I beg couples teach yourself to step outside the room to walk around the block to um to but it just it it because it just makes you angry. Kids don't know that. Kids assume you can vent your anger. That's what they um maybe they pick it up from popular from modern psychology. Um actually I did research um and I I I was going for a doctor in psychology. He's like my consultant now. Um so um it's it's backed up. Um venting anger expressed just makes it worse. Lots of studies. So there's a horrible medish that talks about Yakov also came up. I don't know but I bring Yakov wakes up the morning after his wedding and he sees it's Leia and he says horrible things to her. He says you're the liar, the daughter of a liar. And she says you're calling me a liar. You're a liar. You lied to your father. It's the pot calling the kettle black, right? That's the source. Now, who talks this way to a wife the morning after marriage. She was a victim. I She's a woman had no control. Yakov is a smart man. He knew that if this happened to her, this is what her father did to her. Why would he yell at her? >> But again, we're not saying that he actually did it, >> right? >> Why the mid said this? >> So why is the mid saying this? Because for the rest of his life, Yakob was haunted by what he did. And he was for sure convinced that what he did was coming back to haunt him because look, he tricked his father by switching brothers. His father-in-law tricked him by switching sisters. >> Maybe his wife was saying, "I get it. This happened, but this is your relax now. You don't." >> So, so um Alazer, I don't think anyone was saying anything. I think when he wakes up the following morning, he's beside himself. Um he was supposed to marry one woman, he's married to another. What is he thinking? He's thinking that a kadesh was punishing me for what he did. And Leia wakes up in even before this she's put in a position where as a woman she can't resist. Women had zero rights in the ancient world, right? So she couldn't resist. But why am I put in this position? I mean she doesn't want to hurt her sister. She doesn't want to be married to a man who doesn't want to marry her. No one wants to be in that position. But she's thinking maybe this is what has to happen to YaKob because of what he did. But Yakov lived his whole life. >> She wanted to be married to YaKob. She knew the look of K. She was that's why she was always crying because she knew she was gonna marry so >> right. there. You know, Liza, there's lots of mushroom. I'm not, you know, I'm not such a literalist about those madrash. I I, you know, yeah, I I don't know if she went into this willingly. I I'm cognizant there are sources like that. They lay raos, but you know, different readings. Raos can be beautiful, too. So many different readings. Um, Rakos, the simplest reading is is that she didn't go out to graze because her vision wasn't good. Maybe even Ezra. Why, you know, why is the younger girl grazing, not the old one? Because she couldn't, she couldn't see. That would be the simplest. But again in the world of med that she's crying there's so many but I'm just saying Yakov suffered but because of what he did he was right he was again he wasn't wrong in a way that was terrible there are major that criticize him it's complicated he right to these brothers but it but he did cause such damage you know a brother is a big thing you know he broke his relationship with his brother and essentially he with his parents he was away for 22 years this is this is terrible this is right this is gullless is something that that people go through because they kill somebody. It's hard. >> Would you say that because of what he did that caused the slogan of Asa's to come true? >> I would say and I would say >> if he didn't do that, would as still hate us? >> So, Alazer, I would I would say um again I might not have concur. Not everyone would concur, but think of the wisdom in what you just said. Kazal chose the language seriously. What did they say? Did they say sonako? Right. Why did they choose to say as >> they didn't say they meant the individual, not the nation >> or or they meant it goes back to as but a piece to the puzzle. It could be but the piece to the puzzle is it's something involving as I think alluded to the fact that some of this enmity again you know I >> what it says >> why why >> you're the >> yeah you're so there's a lot of pieces you're you're right um you're the m because there's a but at least the line that is most pronounced in people's mind is as of sonakov I think people should realize in their wisdom chose as it's not per chance. It's not it's there for reason. Do you need a ride back? You need a ride back. Yeah. Um why did choose that term? Because there might be something particular about as um is there a general anti-semitism? There are different that talk about it. But there are also talking about how all of that's going to be reverse level. And that's where I want to go now. Um so um let's continue with this. So what we have here is is that on kipper you have these two goats Jacob as we Jacob is the sadic as is the Russia not so simple Jakob of course is the sadic but but this was a complicated thing where there's there's at least in some sources some level of responsibility in Yakov's part so much so that according to the he loses the right to transmit the Torah because what he did was not perfect again he had a right to the braha because he bought the bakor from Asov because so many causes because as may have been bullying his parents he was trying to protect them but maybe this isn't what he should have done maybe more discussion maybe just certainly there are sources casting dispersions on this when you bring this all together let's take a different approach to the story of the zazul and to do that I want want you to come back with me to parish go to a story that you know but maybe people don't know it quite the way it's meant to be known. So what's the story at the beginning of Islak's coming back terra? He's afraid he's going to meet Asov and and he tries to sort of figure something out. There's a fight with Asov. Then he meets up with Asov and then it sort of disappears like what really happens. There's a fight with Asov some malik then he >> you talking about the cycle? >> Yeah. I I never check my phone during I just check because my father, right? Um so um he has a fight with Sar Shalis with some type of something. Then um there's some type of dislocation, some type of harm to his foot. Then after that he meets up with Asov. At least the Pik tells you that he's so so afraid. Seems that it goes quite well. And then you know the story ends. They go their separate ways. What is that story about? So I want to show you I've never seen this phrase till now but come with me and look at um >> source 23 surv and and I don't want to present myself as being more literate than I am. I don't really know as far I've seen snippets here and there. Um I I think they're I don't know if they're available the original print. They're available online. Some of them are available online. He was the director. He was the dean of the of the seminary in Berlin before the war. There was a tremendous seminary in Berlin before the war. The Hill seminary there the Raon who served Western Europe went to that seminary. Um it was a place you know if you could step back in time and see some place it's some place I would like to step back to and see. You know in New York you have and the yeshiva and everyone makes everyone crave because we live too close to one another. in Europe in a way Germany was Germany, Eastern Europe was Eastern Europe and they really didn't meet so they didn't upset one another. Um and when they wanted to establish schools in in Eastern Europe based YaKob they went to Germany for knowledge. Tomasur would not do that would not go to Wu now. It's just too >> even the non-Jews the same >> and right Sat for sure wouldn't go to Yu now but um Eastern Europe did because they was they they lived in peace. The seminary was definitely more liberal than YU. It was it was open to all types of ideas. It was um it was orthodox but it was it was really very open and he was the dean. He was great. But Germany then it this is before Hitler really believed that you make things work with the non-Jews. You try to be a proper citizen of Germany. You try to to you you believe in your non-Jewish culture. You validate it. You study non-Jewish culture also because you just broaden your mind. You expose yourself to ideas. I still think um if you study your mind, if you have literature, if you have poetry, if you have science, you do a better job with the hum. I think so personally because you you see it from different vantage points. You you if you know poetry >> what? Yeah. Yeah. So was actually to the right of Berlin because you write but for even his world was so his high school was mixed and that's Frankfurt which is more traditional. It was very different. was very and that was Berlin. That was Frank. Berlin was was more open to ideas. It um um and it it worked. It transmitted well. And now again, some will tell you the Holocaust disproved everything. Some will tell you that's not true. The Holocaust happened and it's terrible. That doesn't disprove everything. Um that that doesn't disprove a theology that seems to be rooted in the Torah that you try to work with citizens around you. You recognize that there are good people all over and bad people all over and you try to be knowledgeable because it helps because knowledge is you're supposed knowledge is is a large part of what it's about. Torah is Torah but knowledge that's part of it. >> Yeah. >> Right. For sure. For sure. So I want you to see what he talks about the story of. Right. Look look his title is introduction. I just show 23 his he views the story as a story of of fixing of there was there was a break there was a and the story in parish is is that the relationship is fixed you're supposed to fix a broken relationship with a brother it's not you know we sort of read it as sometimes being disjointed we have um Yakov has this dream he meets Asov as disappears And it it sort of ends there. >> He says it's about fixing a relationship which is what Jakob was supposed to do. And now I want to travel through some sources that I think you will find very surprising. Yeah. >> Before you continue, how does theat explain as of Jacob? If it was fixed then >> so it wasn't fixed with everyone all the time. Um you know two brothers have a complicated history but they try to fix it. Doesn't mean that they're never going to have another argument again. doesn't mean that there isn't a little bit of something between them. There is, but it's better than it was. Is it complete? You know, there are some times where shell and bias is perfect and husband wife never argue. And there are plenty of stable homes that are good homes where husband and wife do have sometimes their their little moments and sometimes big moments. So, um >> the seller is not talking about a mullik. >> Um so, a mullik would be part of >> like no like hate you, >> right? So, mullik is a mullik is actually another piece of the puzzle. We did we ever discuss a malik here? Did that ever come up? A mulligan that's worthy of a shir. >> Oh, definitely. >> It definitely worthy of a share because it really is. And it's a problem now. I know, you know, I I heard a lecture from some rabbi who, you know, the modern text world it the big problem now. Every it's hard no matter what because once you start they you know, kids are exposed to general culture and once they're exposed to general culture, they buy in sometimes and sometimes too much. I think they're pulling back. Marak's kids used to go to secular universities out of town, but there's, you know, they buy in. So there was one kid who had been a student said and and and this person is petitioning for the Palestinians. Now, it's a problem. No one's saying it's simple here, but this kid is gets up there and he says, "Well, I know the Torah and I know what the Torah does to Amalik." You know, it's a Malik really needs to be discussed and understood because it's Malik is nothing remotely like um the terrible um genocides that happened out there. There's reason for it. There's rhyme. It's not at all the wiping out of a people willy-nilly. But that's another point, another discussion. Now, I'll tell you when you start going through the story there, you'll see that Yakov starts out being afraid and he has this fight with the Malik, right? What is the fight with the Malik? What is the mala? We've shared a Rambam here. How does the Rambam learn Malik? How does the Ram? So come look at the Rambam. The Ram explains what a Malik is. Mhm. >> Number >> 20. >> Okay. According to the Rambam, Malik is any we discussed this know this came up. Any natural force. Gravity is a malik. Um um evaporation is a malik. Condensation is a malik. Um um um anything um conscience is a malik frequently. Malik is conscience. >> So any force >> any natural force is a malik. There's nothing you know the idea of these little spiritual things existing outside God describes >> correct look at the here in 20. Yeah. I'm not sure. Correct. The truth is you're you're wiser than me. I don't really have a grasp of the Rama description of >> why it happen. Right? So look at the Rama here. Look at the standard movement of your hands in each hand that help you move. >> So he views it all as the natural force that comes. Look at the here in 20 which is um um you know force um reflexes. um um and so he says um by angel by lions um close the mouth all of this is a okay so it's it's a long ram that um you know I just bought that part but I my understanding and look at the ram here you have the source in the motor look at the full ram in per bay where he seems to say natural forces that are in this world are my supposition I share this in a shir some will disagree that when there's a mal that speaks to a by the we use this for a sh remember the malik is not some force outside it's a's conscience telling him you know what right this is not what a when that's when it comes from the conscience >> conscience malik means forces created conscience within us that we're meant to listen to malik here would have been approaching Asov, Asov's um territory and suddenly there's a lot of inner turmoil. Why is there inner tur turmoil? Because he stole the braha from his brother. He meant well nothing but simply in these brahas as bullying his father and you see that as a forceful strong person. Um, so Yak, it's not as if what Yak did was simple, but when he's meeting his brother, he's coming to his territory. It's 22 years of not speaking to a brother. You know, this is a this is a big thing. There's a brother, right? So, he's grappling the fight with the Malik may be Yakov as a good person with a deep conscience struggling over what happened 22 years before. I'm I'm not saying it's the only reading, but presenting it, I think, as a very logical reading. It's Yakov struggling with his conscience. Where does this lead? It leads with Yakov realizing that I've got to do something about this. He then meets up with Asf. He sends him gifts. He tries really hard. And if you look at a number of Rishonim, a number of Rishonim say Abanel is explicit that the meeting with Asov wasn't just a temporary meeting where, you know, he placated Asov and he made believe that he liked him because he was afraid he was going to kill him. He fixed his relationship. That's what it was about. Look at this. Start start with 24. His heart changed. Well, is actually, you know, was very positive and no relationship with him. That really is defines his so he says that we have to. So again, isn't all positive. He says when there's persecution we have to be ourselves but that will help. Um so so on so forth and he says you know by by being mi ourselves we can sort of win them over. So this photo isn't fully satisfying because he doesn't talk about a relationship being repaired. He talks about appeasing a you know a non-Jew who is you know attacking you. But theel is more explicit. Okay. Theel tells you now you could say theel is saying this when Moshe reaches out. He's passing by Edom and he wants to access, you know, their land. He says, "Please allow me to, you know, pass through your land." And it doesn't work well. But look at what the look at 28. year the year Moshe reached out to Edom and said don't remember the early sins where my grandfather Yakov stole the don't focus on that afterwards people saw one another they made peace and the fight was gone >> over here as well >> so theel says that they made peace And that's what this is about. Now you could say nothing is definitive. You could say the Banell is saying this because this is what the Jews were saying to Adam, but it's not really the truth. Maybe. But certainly the simple reading of the Banel is that they made peace. Now I want to come back to the story of what is it really all about? How could you read the story? Yakov as a sensitive person as really has an there's a conscience and you want to fix things certainly a broken relationship with a brother it's coming to his brother's territory and and there's and and there's inner tension there's turmoil there's pain it's his brother um this fight with a malik might have been internal conflict in inner turmoil maybe maybe a message from a kadesh bar a nvu might be a simpler reading but maybe the nu is about this maybe it comes from him maybe it comes as an avoa the Rama paints it more as an avoa so really I think that's we should go that's a simpler but whatever it is it's about fixing things with and then when he meets as maybe he fixes things and maybe that's where meant to go it's about consiliation now >> right look at theati at the bottom okay the rkinati says you know we spoke before about the two goats Our reading was Asiv and Yakob. And the simple reading is Yakov is the good guy and As is the bad guy. He's pushed off a cliff. Now the go is sent out to the desert and Kazal that's the only approach it's taken. But Vikati says is it just about dispossessing as killing him so that we prevail. The truth is all of the about and what are those full of? What are the phrases that okay for sure but the end is and and and endless divorce of of of gem of world peace of us getting along and and and about you know about things being positive not about them being totally dispossessed and so theati says that these this story of the two goats Yakov and Asov maybe it isn't just a story of Jacob winning being in the base of mish as being thrown out maybe it's a story about both of us counting finding a way to each serve his way look at the that wants to work with us and he tries to and eventually we accept He he seems to say that will on some level work with us. Now I'm cognizant in the the um the goat is pushed off the mountain and I didn't see any classic source that says it isn't. Well, I found one classic source that maybe hints to something perhaps different. Come with me to the rash bomb. Look at source 29. to send it out to the desert. Right. Now, the Rashbam is is um Rash's grandson. Um he's he's a Pton. I don't even know how to translate a Pton. I'm over 60 and I don't know how to translate. I think I will die not knowing how to translate. Well, truth because it it it's not um reading the text literally. It means um well, whatever it means, it means the simple understanding. It means what probably happened the logical understanding right it yeah I let's not it's a discussion but whatever decree is this is what is to send it out alive to live among the other goats that are in the deserts mitsra the mitsurra had a um the bird of the mitsra sent away. Um, and it was sent um to live out in the field and that's that it's sent out but not pushed off a cliff. Now the Garus are explicit that it's pushed off a cliff. I haven't seen anything. You >> mentioned midbar >> because that's its natural habitat. You're sending it free. >> Goat goats don't live in the mid. >> Well, midbra midbra means you should know today we translate midbra to mean desert. Midbra then meant unsettled area. It actually meant Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting how words change, right? But it's not Midbra. They really meant unsettled. >> They use that thing because by Hari they were all healed until they allowed the Nak that lives in the desert back into their lives and that's why they went to the desert. That's the reason why they use that word back. >> Right. Right. Right. But but midbra really means um midbra means an area where um >> wilderness right um a wilderness right >> goats >> right and goats live there okay um >> goats in the wild I want to come back to our discussion what are the um at least what would one reading of the two goats be not at all a reading about um us negating it's about we have our path and they have their path and there's something positive. There's consiliation. We're still twins. The goats are still alike. They look alike. They have the same value. We each of us has its own role to play. Um ours is in our world. His is in his world. Now again, it's a difficult approach to take because the class are explicit and it's not as if they're alternative readings in the kazal that I know of. There are different midrash and different the but the pik doesn't explicitly say it's pushed off a cliff which is why the raj goes out of his way to tell you this. Why does the brah tell you this? Because he wants you to be cognizant of what is that it's not sent to be killed. Now again maybe the mur is that it's killed now. Maybe that's to maybe there'll come a time when we move away from that when when a will progress. But between all of these sources, the Rashbam theati, the ababanel, um I think what you can emerge from this is that yum kipper is not a day about dispossessing the other. It's actually a day about reconciliation. Um yum kipper is about you know healing division, right? and division between people and the worst form of division is division in a family. These are two brothers who found at least according to these shonum healing after something really really terrible. >> Um his ting his social the way he approaches the whole story and I think it it reflects thinking that you would have seen in Germany in the early 20th century. I I don't know that it's wrong to say that this thinking exists to a large degree in America. There's there's there's I mean it's it's it's a place that's really positive for the Jews. I'm cognizant of the current challenges that there's some anti-semitism and for sure for sure their issues, but that doesn't define North America. And when we when we we make it the definition of of North American life, what we do is we create that reality. You know, when when you talk about something too much and you emphasize it too much, you actually you bring it to fruition. >> I mean, many of you deal with non-Jews. Do they all hate you? I mean, is is that >> So, I think when we talk about it too much, is there some of it? For sure. >> But it's interesting that, you know, you said before that uh is it was it the midbar or was it killed? So maybe they both >> so the simple thing is that it was there was one go the simple thing it was killed and pushed off and don't go for alternative readings >> that's but they'll go back but they are going >> right but right don't present the time it wasn't pushed off a mountain so I'm really reluctant >> right now we have a mitzvah to kill a malik right is there going to be that mitzvah no because they're all going to be destroyed >> if things change >> right right Malik is also an interesting discussion. Right. Right. Also >> coming back to that. >> So in two weeks I want to talk to you about it. >> Oh yeah. So I just want to say so the the Rav wants to make a fabian/ um >> I'll get some people. >> We're going to try some of this is going to come. So we're all invited. Uh we hopefully going to have some musical instruments, some good food. Huh? >> We're taking a place >> probably in one of the sukas here. Probably. Yeah. >> Maybe we'll do that and we'll meet again next week. Even though it's sukas. I feel bad I didn't bring the again some of you got bullet invitations mail many of you I didn't have your addresses but I so want everyone in this group at a little table we can have a little dance together so it'll be nice for me >> 18th Sunday >> October 11th >> you know can can I just send you an I'll send you a virtual invitation >> yeah but then I want the reservation >> October 11th at the atrium is the >> 4:30 >> 4:30 I'll send virtual yeah I'll send virtual invitations >> a wedding right >> 4:30 But yeah, next week I'll bring it just I was too harry this week with my father-in-law. >> Um, >> a main a