Inside ArtScroll - Season 5 Episode 7: Rabbi Daniel Glatstein – Haggadah Shel Pesach

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to Inside Arts Girl Scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today I am privileged to be joined by Rabbi Danil Gladstein. Thank you Rabb Danil for joining us. Good to see you. We're here to discuss primarily your Hagoda Ravdan Gladstein on Hagoda which came out last year was one of the bestselling Hagodas of the year. I could tell you the feedback that I got on this Hagada was was phenomenal. Thank you. Uh people appreciate your style. They appreciate the questions you ask, the answers you give, the way you you build up a suggest, you know, on on the on the issues that interest people as relates to the uh to the Hagada. Talk for a moment about why you were uh propelled to write a Hagada. What what was the mindset when you wrote it? Tell you, look, there's certainly no shortage of Hagadas out there. Certainly no shortage of art school Hagadas, right? But what's amazing in Tyra is that the the more you look at something, the more you see still there's there's always a a niche. There's always a a place and studying. I wanted to to study the Hagada not just to say oh a ver here a ver there's always a you could say on each but to look at the hagada as one living document to try to understand what's what's the introduction of the hagada what's the main body of the gada what's the close of the hagada what's the flow why do certain tano appear in the beginning and they sort of you don't hear from them again and other tanom They come toward the end of the sedar as if each tana has a specific role in the sedar and a specific juncture. Is there significance to the number of words or the number of paragraphs to look at the hagod as one uh entity and also as a living entity. What I mean by that is why certain concepts are mentioned where they are. And looking at the Hagad in this in this vein, it opened up like a very uh vast uh vistas of understanding for me and uh I I was inspired to share it. It's interesting that you mentioned that that you approached it like that because I was going to ask when you decide okay I want to write a commentary on that. Okay, where do you start? I mean there are you mentioned the arts scroll hagodas. There are dozens of art scroll hagodas from the classics you know printed decades ago to more recent ones and each one brings its own flavor from a different god or from a collection of gadam and things of that sort. When you sat down so to speak proverbally to write a hagada do you just start at kadesh and say okay what could I find out about that? You know, people often ask, you know, what's the process, right? And I I feel that I wish I could pinpoint what the process is. The only analogy I have is, you know, Tory is of course um it's a but I think the in terms of writing, it's an art. In other words, if if you were to ask a painter, you know, how did you start with this painting? Which which dot did you paint first? I don't know if a person would be able to identify it sort so to speak like you have an inspiration and then you just go with it. It flows. Yeah. Um if I could give you an example of of what I mean you know the hagada basically I'll give you a few examples. Okay. Um the book ends of the hagada. The begins let's say that's basically in Aramaic it ends with so you know to me that that's certainly of note it can't be a coincidence that it begins and ends the same way you know the gar says that if you want to and there's a rule in life anybody knows if they want to get a good idea what a book is about you know you take the book you open up to the beginning you open up to the end and that gives you an idea what the book is about. The you know the garra applies this to the itself. The Garra says the Torah is you know it begins that Hashem clothed the other and it ends Hashem buries begins with it ends with so the whole Torah is so that that would have to mean if the begins you know and it ends that way that must be what the Hagada is about that must be thematic to the entire body material and I'm wondering but it's not at all has nothing to do withas Matim this is a story we went down to to Mitzim they enslaved us and Hashem freed us but it's not about you know aspirations for gul but it must be that if these are the bookends kazal and by the way another when I say kazal you know it's amazing there's so many hagadas who wrote the hagada who wrote it I I literally looked in dozens and dozens of No. So I I I really looked into this topic extensively and this edition begins with a major essay 10 approaches to who wrote the Hagada. So that's an example of there's so much information about the hagada but there you'll always find pockets of you know and and opinions that range from says it was raka the mhagada says it was right so it could be and miller says the Jewish people wrote the hagada it's a couple over the years right yeah which would explain certain language discrepancies and things like that. But I I if I could say that I think that that's what makes from my vantage point as a reader uh what makes this Hagada so unique maybe different than others is that almost every topic that you address when the reader reads it they think hey you know how come I how come I never asked that question like who wrote that and then you have that lengthy essay or you discuss for example how do we say hal at night that's a very basic question said bay not balo and you have a beautiful essay on that but these are questions that people have that maybe they should have they don't realize till they see it in your hold on this is a question I should have had and then you address it so beautifully and you lay it out step by step by step you incrementally and you build almost build the reader's curiosity that's your style in all your swar thank you you do the same in in your beautiful s that you put out not long ago on on bales and uh and your other swarm on the mayadim and so on and so forth you this unique uh style that people connect to and and it manifests itself very prominently in in this hagada besides for the the the depth the clarity your yas just it's a breath of fresh air so um whoever the the people who didn't get to taste the beauty of Rabbi Gladstein on the last year mit they should be able to do it uh this year at the seder but uh as a segue I'm curious growing growing up Pesak the seder. What was it like in the Glasten house? And who who had ashba on you to create the flavor of of Well, you know, uh the sedar night is the the go-to memory in everybody's mind. And whenever somebody thinks about the hagada, they always think back to how their seder was growing up. One of the uh very powerful things I bring in the very beginning was uh my grandfather who I've spoken about many times in this platform Gladstein who was a survivor of the Holocaust. He passed away a few years ago the night of the sedar. Is there wow yeah well the first day of Pesak in the morning. So uh my father asked my grandfather this was in the morning of uh Tesv Nissan said you know Tati are you okay because he wasn't so responsive and he said I'm waiting for the guula and he had misnika oh so and my grandfather if you remember from the Puran book my grandfather was named Morai because his bris was on Tinus Esther but he passed away on PES. So we say you know you know his whole life and this is a theme of the safer his whole life it was awaiting the gula he believed when he was in Awitz he believed every single day Msiah would come and mish his his dying words his last words were he's awaiting the gul so when I say that the book ends areab this reflects that you know it's very important to tell our children They they're going to say we're reading the story. We read it last year. We read it the year before. What we're reading a story that happened 3,300 years ago. So I bring in at least six in the he says all the are in the same sign in the same fashion that the events of mitim were the prototype the pre-enactment the m ofim to the gula and all of these miracles will replay again before the coming of Msiah. So whatever we're gonna read about and learn the night of the sedar it's not history it's destiny it's the future of the Jewish people you know the nivas has ava where every single miracle was layered you know why was it layered because it happened then but that was like a dress rehearsal that it will happen again so are the perfect bookends of the hagada they reflect the the the true nature of what we're trying to speak about the night of the it's important that you know a teenager does do they like the the the buzz word is do they connect with something that happened so long ago it's important that they understand this is not about past it's about future it's about them it's about what they're going to see it's about what they need to hope for right I was going to ask you on uh you're talking about the the say they're being meaningful and people connecting to it. For many people, maybe it's not as inspiring as it should be. As much as there's a lot of nostalgia, like you said, it brings back memories of people's youth, but they're sitting out to say there they feel like, "Hold on, we we read these words before. We've done it before. What's your secret as a r and as and as a mashp and as a of a to infuse all of our sudarim with a vitality with uh with a freshness." So it's not like saying over the same var that you heard 14 times on what vah stands for, you know. Right. Exactly. Exactly. I think I think this point is very enabling for people if if we could realize aside from the idea that we're supposed to imagine as if we were there in the past. I think it's worthwhile to try to develop the the idea that this is what we're hoping for in the future. I mean says there will be mak there will be mis on the that there'll be a yams that I mean he says you know how in the in the Tory gives different dates of how long mitzim lasted for was it was it two 210 was it 400 was it 4:30 and basically kalisol didn't know how to reconcile all the dates until the day we left and then they realized okay 210 in mitzim 400 from the 430 from the Brisbane but at the time you had you know bafraim they left 30 years early they miscalculated but m just points out if you look and say for Daniel three different dates are given we don't even know what the years are so he says if when we knew precise numbers 210 400 430 we still couldn't reconcile until it happened the three dates given in Daniel will not be able to be reconciled until the great day comes. But he he literally learns that every single detail will replay itself to the point I saw like one one of the Reb asked the asks well you know by uh by it says there will never be a scream like that. So that's no he says because it won't only be the all the enemies. Uhhuh. So to read the Hagada like that that this is this is not just ancient history it's what we're aspiring for what we're yearning for changes the the view on the Hagada right now in this in this Hagada there you have any favorite uh people always want to know what's your favorite vert my favorite favorite insight something that people that or a revelation that maybe people don't know. Okay. This this is a gift from heaven. This is a gift from heaven. At the the Hagada begins with this famous sedar. Uh you have Raba Rebar Rebar Yeshua. They're they're in Benra. You have five Tano and Benra. It's one of the only accounts of Tano sitting at a sedar. And just I always wondered I mean you have Rebel Mazar you have Rabi Ka you have Rab Yeshua where's the Nasi where's Ram Guml where'd he go well he wasn't invited you know what's going on so I don't know maybe he was out of town he was with his own family there is by the way a tota that talks about Raml say there and it says Ram Gaml spent the whole night learning pes which is very different what what these tan did they So where was he by the way? He's not mentioned in the whole Hagada until the end. Oh go and but but when when he comes back he comes back with a bang. Okay. So this was if you look in the in the yard of the Rambam the Rambam has there a he adds one word that revolutionizes the whole Hagada. He says we know there's also a Mishna that we say everybody knows you know as if I'm 70 years old but really he was 18 it was the day he was appointed as nasi the rama adds the word meaning at that historic seder of the five tan that's where he said it he said to them by the way I feel like I'm 70 that means we know that was the day he was appointed the ni But the day he was appointed, Ram Gam was deposed. So that explains why he wasn't there. Obviously, he wasn't there. He was deposed. He probably wasn't comfortable sitting with the group of that deposed him. The Gumar says that the day was deposed, the Bish was he had many either 400 benches, 700 benches. Why? Because had a policy called You had to be worthy to enter the base mish. I think it is very telling that the hagada begins on the day rail is the pose because what are we doing the night of the sedar night of the sedar we're saying let's open the doors bring in all the kinder the t the russa everybody in do you think if was standing at the door they'd all be able to come in there's not a chance they would be let he would let it would be right so the whole nature of The seder is it doesn't matter who the child is. It's an open door policy. So the hagod has to begin and rail is not here. So he says how does he get back in the door. I think the hagada parallels that story in the gar perfectly because at the end of the story asks Rabishua for right the gumar says it was precipitated because asked to stand and Rabishu is very uncomfortable and didn't like that was imposing his authority over ultimately asked for Rabishua says no says do it in the honor of my rais says who is Ranguml's forefathers h so if we want to bring back into the sed we got to invoke hil yeah we have to we have to mention hill now the gumar says that that there was a great dilemma when we bring back should we make binary step down we can't do that yeah so the garra says okay we got to keep rebelar should they split the duties the garra came up with the following formula Three in one gets three weeks gets one week. So when we bring back we say you're back. We give you three things. But the parallels that episode and I found in this he says when they came to tell the you know he gives manesh. So the Maran says shak stands for Russia. In other words, in other words, they were saying the reason why we having this sed is to let everybody in. We need the we need everybody in. Once we've let everyone in, perhaps we could bring Gamlio back in as well. Wow. But that that's just an example of how the format of the Hagada. And I think that's like a a novel uh matana. Yeah. Wow. What an explanation and what a find from Lukaran. Um what else? What else do you have to share? Yeah. So let's talk about also you know we know you know the rea ascribes significance let's say to the number of words in miguelestester or the number of words in each segment of so it's like is there significance or do we even have a number count of the number of words in the hagada I have a safer it's a very rare safer it's called safer aasra by rainas Isharwitz from I believe the 19th century Okay. He says he did a count from the beginning of the Hagada until the official end of Gal Israel 1,820 words in the Hagada. Say, okay, what are you going to do with that? He said he counted the number of times the shame is in the 1,820 times. Adan, but it hit me. It's so clear why the number of words in Hagada correspond perfectly to the number of times shame is in the migillah. You see um by the way according to the gears today it's Omarim. Yeah. I don't know what what the count would be. The count would be off. Oh saying good. You're saying okay we could be by the Is it curious not to interrupt your train of thought the text of the as we know it across claw Israel is it pretty much uniform from community to community? Are you are you familiar from toarim to it's a very good question and I don't want to say definitively because I'm not certain I'm not sure but at least according to one gear so it's 820 words for sure it's 1,820 words I guess ash in other words you know the of Uhhuh. Yeah. And I'm sure each kahila whatever their word count is there's a right but so so you know parro was param or was par it's a big question right parro had a very good rebi his rebi was and parro tells y the dream and y says eloim and when y interprets the dream par says you're right Good boy. So it sounds like he became a right on the other hand throughout the the story of Paris says so was he a mammon or was he not so says parro was a m inim he was a kifer in the shame what does that mean he believed god created the world but he He set it in a system. He turned on the conveyor belt. He pressed start and now the world operates. He believed in in nature. But he did not believe that Hashem was said Hashem could override the system that Hashem is and he constantly is changing and overriding and every event that happens is the Hashem at that moment. Par did not believe in that. So the purpose of the makos was to show that there's a so it comes out very beautiful and very compelling that the number of words in the correspond to the shame that's the purpose of the is to come to in the I thought you were going to say that he believed in in only not yeah that that was gonna take out his it could be the the the concept of den and and tea is connected and the concept of ramen and and is also connected. So it's it it could be that as well. Yeah. Right. That he didn't believe that that despite them falling to the to the that's on that note on the measma right before the Hagada went to print I give a little insight. This is inside arts girl. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I hope I could right before the went to print, I got a hold of the faji. I'm a big Yeah, I know. I even went to his kev in Turkey when uh back in the back in in the good old days when you could still go to Turkey. He wrote a So, so I'm looking at the it says Piska Alf. So I say I see I say how many pisco are there and then it stops. So, so and then I see that says he broke he wanted to break up the hagada into components to see how many segments there are and he says lo and behold he discovered there are 50 segments in the hagada and the reason is based on and also of it says 50 times in the because had we remained there a moment longer we would have fallen to the point of no return. So was was being from the 50 they enacted they they formatted the Hagada with 50 segments. So to me again this all fits into what I was trying to accomplish with the Hagada that I I I want to see the Hagada as a formatted one formatted document. How many words are there? How many segments are there? What's the flow? Why do some people come in at different intervals? Mhm. So I want so I put in the hagada um in the very beginning a list of all the various uh pisk and what they are like I listed I named all the uh chapters of the hagada let's see if we could and based on yeah here on page 131 the 50 pusk however If art scroll ever does. Okay, this is the inside art scroll then it will say by each one what number it is. But this is not the so just in one section it lists the 50 uh the 50 uh pis. It's interesting you mentioned the mesh but uh kazal also say that there was there there will never be a d like the yim. So on one hand they had fallen to the lowest level of tum on the other hand there was something very unique about the yim about that d that will never be replicated how does that dichotomy work okay that's a very important question and and this is really a question that should be focused on and addressed more and there's an essay on this question in this hagada I will point out when we talk about the mesh tum and this idea that if we would have fallen to the shaun. It's the point of no return. Right? I want to point out it's so common. We always say the the shaun, the point of no return. Is there a shun? It's very um many maintain that indeed there is a shaun. The vagin says there is no shun. It does not exist. The Quran says on the Russia the shun of kadusha 49 Russia there only 49 for the Russia there is no shun the leash brings that there is an opinion in cabala there is a shaun and the leash says the gr is definitively correct there is no char so that's a very interesting but but there is let's say even according to the leash and the there's a shame test the point of no return and if I could just interrupt very briefly. I always wondered how could you say there's a point of no return. I mean isn't that antithetical? Don't we always Hashem is always even say but says whatever tells you you listen unless he says get out you can't do chuva then you don't have to listen anyone could do chuva I was thinking about this I was thinking about this what exactly is this point of no return and you know the point of no return is a cabalistic concept and I think I found the answer in the most basic source the Rambam you know the Rambam in writes about the development of The Rambam says, you know, that Abrau came along and he planted in the hearts of Kalis the of Amuna and he gave it over to Yitzk and he gave it over to Yakov. And then we went down to Mitsim and the planting of Abraham began to Wayne. And had we remained a moment longer, the planting that Abraham planted in us would have been And to me it sounds very similar to this idea of the point of no return but it's giving a rationale and I think it's as follows. There is no question that there is no point of no return. You could always do chuva. Could always do chuva. But here's the thing. Who are we? Who is raiser? Who's Daniel gladstein? We are Ben Abraham. Why are we Ben Abraham? Because there's something that Abraham planted into our spiritual DNA. However, had we remained in Mat longer, you know who we would have been? We just would have been us and we could not trace back our spiritual ancestry to we would have been cut off from the not that we would have been um not that we would have fallen into the abyss and we can never return to but the connection to the the bedrock of our of our past would have been completely severed. So then is a celebration not oh hashem took us out of the shaun. What is the shaun? Hashem rescued us so that we were able to recover our eternal connection to the maybe that's why they have the emphasis of there's no other mitzvah that you have to give to your child do the mitzvah shake the lulah blow the but was a celebration that were eternally connected that's perhaps the the the meaning behind this point of no return but you ask you know so how do we evaluate the level that clau were on when they left mam were on the brink or we on the highest level. Right? The leashm says that it's a mistake to say that the night of mim we were going to fall to the brink. How could that be? He says once Hashem began to bring the makus like a year earlier and we began to see the hashka that propelled us to great heights. If if we were ever on the brink prior to the before the maku the night of Matim like you said before we were on the highest level of anyone in history. Ready for this? I want everyone all the audience to fasten their seat belts says alashm you know what it means had we remained in mit a moment longer we would have been on the point of no return. Had we remained in a moment longer with such giloina, we would have been propelled to the 50th level of kadusha and then there would be no habria and then we would have to call it a day. So not that we would fall to the point of no return, we would have been propelled mala to um of a maj. So at first we were at the brink through the mako. Hashem began to elevate us until the night. We were at the brink of the summit of Kadusha. Had we remained there a moment longer, we would have been elevated to the greatest level and that we couldn't have yet. I would add that the amazing uh component of this vart that you're saying is that they were able to reach the pinnacle of kadusha still in mitim. They were still in the Vas. It was in Mitzim itself which was the most immoral land in the world where they fell to the low to the lowest abyss. But also it was within that environment that they also rose to the highest level of kaduca which should provide tremendous to everyone. Now that even within the immoral environment a person could reach that level of holiness and purity. Sometimes people think, "Oh, I have to be extracted. Extricate me from the Vasar and then I'll be able to reach the Kadusha." This you're saying is is is so potent and so powerful because it's telling us that reached that level even when they were there before they went out. Beautiful. Beautiful. Beautiful. We have a risk. What could be better? That's what the the the uh say when you're embarking on a voyage of kadusha. You know what you always have to remember? Don't be down on yourself because think about where they were and still what they were able to elevate themselves to. Speaking of elevating, this is a is is pure spiritual bliss. It's an elevation. Thank you. Uh I I I know how much how much how much aliyah I felt going through the beautiful and and those who didn't go through it last year and even those who did should make sure to do it again get a hold of that god. I think it will enhance their seder quite significantly and and uh it's never too late to to wish you a mazo on the release year old but it's as fresh and it's as new as ever and there's so much in here and uh we we appreciate you sharing from your wellsp springs of yadas and and your passion and your messages that resonate with people uh so beautifully. So keep keep uh keep doing what you're doing with your Satan putting out such really beautiful swarm such a keshim. Thank you very much and thank you for being here. My pleasure and it's a great honor to see you. Thank you. [Music]