Inside ArtScroll - Season 5 Episode 2: A Fascinating Trip Down Memory Lane with Rabbi Nosson Sche...

[Music] Now your your contribution to the world of Tyra literature continued after the sedar. What was the next major project? Mhm. Next project was the maker rashi kipper which uh is also very very important because you know the uh the the puteim rashi kipper are unintelligible. I mean I I went through mafur and had to look up the psukin that they're based on. They're they're very very poetic. They're very beautiful and very hard to understand. So that was um that was a new challenge. Was it very time consuming doing that type of research? Did you have to consult with putumm experts to understand the breath and depth of it or there are a few swarim? Not many. There are a few swarm that deal with the with the maser with the putm. And were you able to borrow some of the basic material from the sid and incorporated that into the matser? Yeah, much of the masser is the regular sitter. Mhm. Carbonisimra. So a lot of it comes from the sitter. The hard part is the uh things that are exclusively in the mirer. And again the maxer has that what I would call the iconic introduction that has become synonymous with with each of these volumes and you put a tremendous amount of work into that as well. Overview. The overview. Let's stick to the to the right term. Um after the mach we're moving into the late 80s um was the stone kish the next major project. Yeah. How did that idea come about to do that form of a kish? Well it was a logical next step because the uh the stone kish really follows the pattern of the sitter and the mer and uh there was a need for that kind of kish. There was there was no other kumish like it. The only thing that approaches the sitter was the Hertz the rather the Herzish that chief rabbi Herz of Great Britain produced in the 30s I believe and a really very interesting insight. Somebody showed me an article, a review article about the Herz Kamish. Herz was a Herz was a firm Jew. He was not he wasn't your reformer or conservative rabbi. He was a a very firm Jew and he wanted the kumsh to represent what the mafur would kazal say. However, he was dealing with a clientele which was um I wouldn't say thoroughly assimilated but to a great deal was uh was assimilated. Even even the Orthodox community in England was not what we would consider uh you know in in the 21st century what we would consider a terodic community. Far from it. And this review article that somebody showed me lambasted him, criticized him. This he thinks he's writing for an educated, sophisticated public and he really expects us to believe these stories as if they really happened. So what Rabbi Herz had to do was to present present the kumish and explain it according to the msura but at the same time to to make it palatable to these you know educated sophisticated people quote unquote so so for example he would quote Matthew Arnold we can't quote Matthew Arnold we we stick to Hazel Right. I think the Herzich is also written in a bit more of a complex type of lingo that that the everyday man may not understand. Yeah. That was the intellectual English language of uh of Great Britain in the 1930s. Exactly. And it's not the same the same way that the her the hers is hd. Right. Even in Germany it was a intellectual brand of um of German. Right. And I would say also later on the sansino gamura I think also had that issue where it wasn't language that that everyday English speakers spoke. True. So the stone kish definitely broke new ground in that sense bringing a commentary and a translation. That's understandable. uh you did not choose to translate Rashi though you did in obviously include the Kish text and and Rash's commentary and and one other thing which is very important what what translation do you use what do you do if if the Ramban or Ibanzra don't go with Rashi right whose translation do you use and we consulted on that mayor spoke to Marshall Fanche in his I spoke to Rabian and there was absolute agreement by everybody means kumish rashi so the translation follows rashi even even where others have something that's fits the words better but we we stick with rashi and then on the bottom you bring in the commentary mafaram and what's unique to the stone kish and I wonder whose idea that was was that at the end of every para there's a commentary or a comment from David Feinstein regarding the number of par which is very unique how did that come about that addition well mayor was very very close to right they're in yeshiva together though is quite a bit older but it's like you know like like an older brother but they were very very close and and he knew that Rebid always had something on the the number of the sukim in the parisha and he thought it'd be a nice idea to to include it. Sir Rebd gave us the material and it really does add a a unique flavor at the end of every para that I know I appreciate and I'm sure many others do and has an amazing original mind for example saysir every shabas think half hour 45 minutes he never quotes anybody it's all original David is a low-key kind of him but um he's come to be recognized in America as the god lad. Yeah, absolutely. We're definitely fortunate that we have a god like David uh guiding kisel but specifically guiding art school. He's been a a father figure always available whenever we needed something. He's always available mayor and he used to speak on the phone every day. I mean literally every day. Not Shabas but uh and he was always available. We had a question, we needed guidance, he was always he was always available. The feedback to the Kish was fast and coming as well. Sold very very well. And what specific feedback have you gotten over the years to the stone kish which is really unrivaled? It came out what uh if I'm correct about 30 years since its release all about yes about 30 years ago about 30 years and there's really been nothing like it. What feedback have you heard? You spoke about the sidd impacting people's lives becoming balichua. What have you heard about the very interesting I've heard comments from uh from from rabbis comments from raon and from people with no Jewish background. Everybody finds something in that appeal to them. And that was the design that was the idea the same idea that we had with the sitter. Make the kumish first of all make it comprehensible. Explain it and the translation. It has to be faithful to the to the words. But as much as possible make it make it a translation that can be readable on its own even without commentary and teach people have them understand some basic concepts and inspire people. But we get into for example um well in in mayor's kish there are extensive overviews in every parisher. I think the uh on whole cipher braces there must be at least 30 overviews maybe more in the u in the kish we have we have an overview that introduces terabikav that stands on its own and then for example a is tested what's the definition of a test what's the purpose of a test I George Boo knows. He knows what somebody would do or somebody would could fail to do. What's the What's the idea? What does it mean? Carbon. Wh why does how does slaughtering an animal bring you closer to God? What what is it telling you? What does it mean? So many concepts and such basic concepts. We're talking about fundamentals of of Yiddish. basic concepts and in the kumish we we try to explain them in just a few paragraphs which is quite daunting. Uh it's as a writer it's harder to write something concisely than to write it you know in a lengthier fashion. That's right. It's it's a challenge but when you're finished it's a it feels good. Sure. Now this project was was a wide-ranging project. Do you remember how long it took you to complete it? And were you still writing longhand at the time? Yes, I was still writing longhand. And um again, it's hard to say how long it took because because for much of the time I was doing the kish along with other things. So it was never fulltime. But we felt mayor and I felt that um you know mayor has a had a had a used to have a favorite saying that Rava and Ravashi were the ones who put the final touches on the Gmorra and Tammed Bavi. He said uh Ravina said to Raashi there's a there's a deadline we have to finish. So we had uh we we we had a we had a deadline. We had promised it by a certain time. So for for about a year and a half or so I worked from home, locked myself in the house and that was as a means of of maximum productivity. Give it maximum time and maximum intensity, maximum concentration. During that period, I would come into the office one day a week, sometimes sometimes twice a week, but that was I don't know a at least a year, probably a year and a half or so. Wow. Now, you're talking about locking yourself in a room and really immersing yourself in this aesh. I have to ask, they say there's no great man without a great woman behind him. And I'm sure that in your case it would not have been possible to do what you you've done and continued to do without a supportive family. And you referenced your Rebbitson before. Talk about how your commitment to arts scroll affected the homeront and how you were able to balance the two. Well, you're right. Nothing like this can happen without um without a very good wife. And my wife is more than very good. She was tremendous balis in her own right. She helped countless people even even now she's gone almost eight years. Even now I have people from that I meet or my children meet and they said how they were faced with a question a dilemma and they read about her. They didn't some of them knew her personally. Most had just read about her and they said, "What would Mrs. Sherman do?" And that's what they would do. Can I give you an example? Yeah, absolutely. There was um there's a woman in Burough Park. She's physically handicapped because she had she's once badly injured and did not have use of one arm and It affected her mentally also. She lived alone in a basement. She had a cat. She couldn't she couldn't take care of her personal hygiene. There are a lot of you know and Clausius. They would bring her food. They would shop for her. She needed something. They would not come into the into the room because it smelled and you had the cat and cats don't flush the toilet. And my wife used to go into her and take her laundry. And when she had to go to the hospital, she said, "I can't go to the hospital. Who's going to take care of the cat?" And my wife said, "I'll take care of the cat. I'll come in and feed the cat." My wife hated cats. She did it. The laundry she did in the laundromat. She didn't want to put it in our washing machine. So, why am I telling you this as an example? Um, I got a letter several months ago from a woman in my wh have no idea who it is. Never heard of her. She signed it, but I never heard of her. and she said she had a similar situation where she was asked to take care of someone and and it was very unpleasant and she didn't want to do it. Then she thought, what would Mrs. Sherman do and she did it? So, you know, if you need a wife who's going to help you even when you have to concentrate on your work and um and sometimes you get home very very late. Barashe had it. There were probably sacrifices made, but uh I think it would be fair to say that the accomplishments that we see are definitely credit to her. Yeah. And uh together together you and your to raise a beautiful beautiful family family of children great grandchildren, great grandchildren. Yeah. who are who are ina so it's definitely uh it's definitely a tribute to her as you mentioned Russia had told you I was about tea and davlin she liked the yeshiva and during the break she would say to him that the tequia should be good that's called the devoted wife right going back to projects we referenced the stone kish as as a monumental achievement as you moved into the 90s. What were the projects on your table? And as Arts School undertook probably its biggest project which was the Shanstein edition, what was your role in guiding that project and uh you know weighing in on important decisions as that project made its way through MS after MS. I had almost no role in the uh in the stain tomud consultations, you know, whenever I was needed, I would be I would be available. Sometimes uh sometimes the the editors would would send me something to look over and maybe it should be rewritten to make it more more palatable. How do you explain something? But um those were limited occasions. What do you think? And how were you impacted by the shot in Stingamar when it first came out and it really took the Tyro world by storm? There had never been a translation. Let me let me let me give you some background. Um Mayor and I became close to Rabian. We would consult with him. Give you Oh, I mentioned before when we were doing Shirim. How do you explain Shira you know a literal translation is just it's allegory allegorically it's erotic how do you want to said Shirim is a mush to translate Shirim literally falsifies Shirim that's not what it means he said take one of them ashim preferably Rashi but not necessarily and translate it according to that according to the allegory. So if you read our translation of Shirim, it's not at all literal. It it's it explains the psukim with the with the nimul but the message rather than the than strictly the words the um so as I said we used to consult with all the time and at one point he said and when will you do the shas and we live you we thought he was joking Bring it into the shots. It was very serious. I remember word for word what he said. He said, he said, "You can do it and you should do it and you will do it. And if and if a kadeshbar who gives me the years, I'll write you a letter. Um he did not have the years. We started doing it six years after that and he was already he was already gone. But um that you know when we it gave us a lot of encouragement. We still felt that that it was too much that we too too great a project for us. I I'll tell you a little bit later how we were able to finance it. That's a story in itself, right? But um at first we thought how how naive we were. At first we thought there are people saying very good popular dafy sharim. So we'll get we'll get tapes. In those days it was tapes, right? In those days, we'll get the tapes of the Shirim and we'll have them transcribed and then we'll do a little bit of editing and we'll and we'll print it. No. Did you try you tried that? We tried it. It's was obviously it was impossible. No, it would never never never work. Mhm. So we had um one of the great that somehow somehow gave us treasures literally treasures and this particular treasure was called Hershel Goldworm. Hershel Goldworm was brilliant. We were in yeshiva together at bellium. Misselium and um and he had a he he had a position teaching eighth grade in uh 12th grade rather in yeshiva and he was magnificent rabbi. He knew everything and he could he knew how to teach. Tamidum loved him. the yeshiva folded and he was left without without pranasa. His father-in-law was in the diamond business. So he went he was selling diamonds but uh he was not a diamond salesman and at that time we needed we needed someone. We were thinking of doing cipher donal because we were doing swarm of and I said I said I have this friend and he can do it and his English is probably not up to par so I'll edit him. So we brought him in. It was breath of fresh it was like sunshine. He knew everything. He was and on available for and made nothing of himself purely purely service to the service to Clasel service to anybody who needed help. So when it came to the Gmorrah he was the oh he he was involved in Mishnayas also especially the more difficult the Yavro series right the original the original Mishna Yadav Ram so when we came to Gammorra he was the logical one to set the tone for the project which he did the style of the Gamorra has uh evolved a little bit over the years but basically basically it's with And that's credit to him. Credit to him. And uh I give you one small example. The first the first that we did was to mak and there's a interesting in the beginning of makus and they asked me to write it up which I did and I fitted it into the commentary and hersel said hersel said it's very nice and it's probably correct but we're not here to say our own khadushim. We're here to explain to Gmorrah according to Rashi and that was the pattern from the beginning and that was the style that the Shanstein edition continued Gomorrah with Rashi. Of course there's more. much more for I mean for example uh you know revelash used our gamorra he went through the notes of our Hebrew Gomorrah preparing for his year right revelasha did not need us to tell him what rashi says so the fact that the the notes are so so clear and bring up so many other points for further research if reasha felt it was important and How do I know that he felt it was important? First, he told us, "All right, he's a nice man. Maybe he wanted to make us feel good." No. Uhuh. His grandson once called up. He said, "He's he'll soon he'll be starting to share on Byus and could we could we send him the volume. It wasn't written yet." Wow. He said, "Well, you probably have gies." It wasn't written yet. Mhm. So if Rabi Ashv had his grandson request that means that means that he wanted to use it. No question. Um you mentioned Rev. Goldworm who tragically passed away in his 50s 56 years of age. I believe it was 1993. uh and I know that only because he his name is mentioned in every Shanstein Gumar and rightfully so as the as the pioneer of the project but he was followed by many outstanding kam over the years that you've gotten to know and have become part of the arts school family talk about that development of the kum and their contribution not only to the garra but to the subsequent projects well um yeah two levels the writers and editors and Rabes Danziger who's uh outstanding Tom Kam he um he he worked with Raersel he's very devoted to Raersel and someone once when we did Kchin he uh somebody said to him did you go to brisk no so he didn't go to brisk so how could you so he said my rabbi Kchin is somebody that if the B migus would be built tomorrow he could he would tell the cayenne what to do. That was Harshel. Oh really? He was talking about Harshel. Anyways he's um he he oversees the editors and make sure that the the style is pretty is consistent throughout. He done a lot of writing himself and a lot of it is a unique thing that the Shanstein edition not only are the mas written by separate people but within the same ma the praim are divided up just because of the yman's job that it is to elucidate it and yet as you just alluded to the translation is pretty much uniform in terms of the flavor of the writing and uh and that's definitely a commentary the elucidation it all it's it all fits into the pattern And sometimes you have writers that tell me they want to put in more and he has to discipline them. you know this belong you're like hersel from the start this belongs this doesn't belong and the Hebrew gimar the problem was even greater because these are real very very solid and many of them maybe even most of them want to say their own and they have what to say right and uh and disciplines them he trains them training is the right word. He actually trains them in how to present something and what to present and what does not belong here. So that's the there we have two levels. You have the writers, the editors and then you have you have over them. And since then uh Ali Herzka is in that in that league and Zabi Misel's in that league. And then then you have what we call the readers. These are of reperial's caliber and and and their function is to two twofold. First of all, if editors have a question, they have a problem, they can call them, they can discuss it with them. So they provide guidance and and they they read the finished project the pro finished product rather and um and they pass on it for correctness for accuracy and they'll send back notes they'll ask for corrections and that we call them the super editors readers super editors there was um Rabbi Molinowitz who tragically nifter just about two years ago at who could work 28 hours a day on several different projects. He can recent different and he could work and and and he was available for everything and thorough and I I don't know when he ever slept. Plus plus he was he would throw himself into a project. He would do more than he was asked to do. We miss him. But Vashander, other people were able to pick up the slack. But uh you know he was like like a harsh category of his own. Then there was Rabbi Mor Marcus exceptional exceptional and um he was also one of these one of the readers. He's He had to stop the last couple years of his life. He wasn't able to do it anymore and he's not not here anymore. And then we have Kashure, a son of Rabidal, who was an Eloy in his own right, contemporary and a good friend of Rahersel Roshan or Seak. So that's the that that's our that's our team. That's the team that put together the bi, the Hebrew, the English. And you're talking about this team of and editors and super editors and proof readers, all outstanding. You see, and and you need something else. You need something else. You need a combination of skills that is very very hard to find. It's it's really it's rare. You need someone you need someone whose English is good. Doesn't have to be excellent, but it has to be good. You know, editing is one thing, not rewrite. It has to be someone who's whose language is good, can be improved, but it has to be good to start off with. He has to be a kim. If you don't know how to learn a piece of gammor and learn it well, then you you can't be writing the Shannonstein tomud. So you need a whose English is very good. Difficult combination to find and you need a third talent. He has to be a teacher. He has to know how to explain. You have to be able to explain it. So that you know brisk he used to say that if he if he can't explain his kesh to the wagon driver and make him understand it then then it can't be correct. If it's correct you can you you have to be able to explain it in a in a in a simple fashion so that everybody can understand it. Now some gumaras are very very complicated you know not yet not everybody can just pick it up and read it the way you'll read I don't know the reader's digest or something like that but they have to be able to explain something like like a rebby explaining something to a class on the level of the class so that they can understand it. Mhm. So a triple whammy language lumbus and teacher. Very hard to find that combination. And it is interesting that the final product is something that could be understood by the layman but is also appreciated by rely and that uh that combination is definitely rare. But I want to go back to the we're talking about a virtual ko that art put together and you mentioned before about the fundraising used to say mayor liked this he always repeated it a ko on vent a without walls because they're not all in the same m absolutely and these across the world both in art and here in the United States are working on behalf of art scroll and that's quite a quote ly endeavor. So the idea came about to establish a foundation to pay for the research of the projects. Talk about that. I'll tell you how that idea. Tell you how that happened. So when we were still in our small original building on Coney Island Avenue, 1969 Coney Island. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. 1969 Coney Island Avenue next to Nino's restaurant and across the street from the gas station. And um somebody came in, mayor and I worked on the second floor. Somebody came in, he said to receptionist, um he would like to meet the principles. All right, come up. He he came to say thank you because um he said he's been learning the the Mishna and he appreciates it gone through the whole thing. Just came to say thank you. And how do you do this? Well, it turned out his name was Joel Fleshman. At that time he was the he was the first senior vice president of Duke University. and Duke um according to current ratings is the the fifth best university in the United States and he was he was a professor and in addition the first senior vice president you know it's not a that's not a small position anyway he asked us how do you produce such work and we said with long hours and uh and sometimes borrowing ing and he said he said look he's I've been at Yale and I'm at Duke you cannot produce such work without a taxexempt foundation because this is very expensive and he volunteered he he enlisted the tax attorney of Duke not a Jew and together they would set up a foundation and walk it through the IRS make sure that it's impeccable you know foundation can't be arts grow arts school msara publications cannot take taxexempt money we're a business right you know maybe it's not the most successful business in the world but we're a business to be taxexempt you have to be a legitimate charity and he worked it out there's an arms length relationship between between Misara Publications and Misera Heritage Foundation. Most people don't understand that. Yeah. Many people don't people have asked me what's Arts Scroll, what's Misora, what's the foundation, why do you need it? And that's why it's important to explain. People should understand. All right. So, so while you brought it up, let me explain it. The same way for the same way. For example, you have, let's say, a Metropolitan Opera, you have the conductor, you have the orchestra, you have the singers, they all get paid, and u I don't know. I don't know what tickets cost, but they're not cheap. That's a business. Metropol is is a business, but they have to raise money because ticket sales don't pay. Mhm. In the same way that the sales of the of the art school gamura will never never pay for the for the amount of work that that goes into it. Um, so there's a foundation that raises money and they contribute to the to to the opera, but the the conductor has nothing to do. The conductor does not get paid by the foundation. Now, this the the same thing here. There's I give you an example of the Gamarra. the Gomorrah. Each each volume of the Gomorrah costs between 250 and $300,000 to put out because we pay writers and editors. We pay them. We're not uh they're not on welfare. It's got to be a living wage. They they don't get food stamps. As a matter of principle, we feel that it's wrong. You can't take someone and and then then then and pay him like a like an indentured servant who's getting a is getting an allowance from Tati sales don't cover that sales don't cover that one of the things that Joel Fleshman noticed was he said at that time there was no Gura yet but there was the the ad of Ramishnias he said Ramishni had cost in the middle 20s he said a college. He said, "I've been at Yale and I've been at Duke. A college textbook of this quality would go for $80 to $100." That was his question. How do you do it? How do you do this at such a moderate cost? Right? So, the price of the Gamorra, you know, people would like to get it for $10 a volume, but the price is still subsidized to make it affordable. You can't do that unless you raise money. So that's what that's where he he set up the foundation. Now we have the foundation now. The trustees of the foundation is Joel himself. Uh Jim Tish who's the chairman of Lowe's Corp. Joe Shanker was a tot of mine in the fifth grade. Yeah. Yes. I am Shanker. He's the chair he's the chairman of Sullivan and Cromwell which is one of the biggest law firms in the world. You know these are people of very very high caliber and the others as well and Riva Feinstein as well the board of trustees. These people these people are not going to be involved in something unless unless the books are audited and unless unless everything is done in the up and up. you know, they're not uh some somebody like well like Joel or Jim Tish or uh or or uh or Joe Shanker, they're not gonna let they they're not going to let their reputations be jeopardized. So, they're on top of it. They know everything that's going on. We have meetings twice a year and they want to know what's happening. And uh a reputable accounting firm does audits. one of the top accounting firms in the country. So it really is arms length. The foundation raises the money. Well, foundation doesn't raise any money really. Mayor raised the money. Nagadali raised the money but the money goes to the foundation and the foundation these trustees decide how it should be spent. So that supports the editorial work not the business end of it. right the editorial work and then it's turned over to Msura publications and we get it ready for print and we sell it to the stores right now that you're talking about the financial stability brought around brought about by the foundation but we've heard and read about the financial instability of art scroll in the early days and the sacrifices that you rabbis ladawitz and rabbi brander had to make to bring art school to where it is today. Take us back to that time of such uncertainty when you didn't know what the end. You didn't know the end of the story yet. No, those early years were no were no fun. A lot of times we had to borrow to make payrolls. And for many many years, even until recent years, we we borrowed large sums of money over Pesak and over Sukus when we're not doing any business. We're closed to to make sure that everybody's paid. We we never miss the payroll. Never. You know, it's a cuddle without wolves, but we pay more reliably than the cuddle with wolves. And uh there were loans. We we both we both took at home equity loans which often plowed into the business. Wow. To keep things going. And there are people who were very generous lending lending us money and everybody was pay back in time. Mhm. until it reached the point of Hashem. But um getting getting back to financing the the Talmud and other projects as well, you know, once once Joel Flashman had set up the uh the foundation, we were able to raise money taxdeductible like Harvard, you know, you you you make contributions. Harvard has an endowment of I think over 300 billion dollars. Maybe it's three billion. I don't know what it is, but it's it's billions. It's in the billions. And Harvard is a charity, you know. Sure. So once we were able to do that, we were able to uh to get people to try and and dedicate a maka. The first one Marcus was dedicated by Marcus Katz Mexico City and then after we started with Marcus because it was a one volume ma a yeshiva masea so it's something that's widely learned and uh yes boys learn it parents would want would be interested in in learning and using it to help them learn with their children that was the first one and bar hashem it it succeeded. The next one we did was Aravven because we were hoping to finish Aravven in time for the upcoming Dafimi and um and that was written by Rabis Ryman. Correct. He he elucidated it. Yeah, he he did uh later on it was upgraded, but he he's the one who wrote AFIN and um our good friend Rafie Butler who at the time was the uh was the director of the OU, he introduced us to Jerome Shatenstein, Jay's father, and he undertook he dedicated volume one of Aravven. We hadn't finished volume one yet. We ran out of money. So what do we do? Now mayor had a friend named Noam Stellerman. He was a executive director of institutions. He understood fundraising. So he said you go back to Shatenstein. But we got from them already. He said you don't understand. If somebody trusted you once, then they'll trust you again. You always go back to people who who trusted you, who helped you. Mhm. So we went to we we we met him and um and he said he wrote out the check and then and then we we had the idea of um getting a name grant for the whole thing. Not just the Shatenstein edition of Ma but the Shatenstein Talmud. and we prepared our proposal and we went to Columbus. We met with we met with him in his home and Jay was there. In the middle of the meeting, Jay went out to Dava the side room and um and he undertook it. He undertook it. One might say one of the greatest investments any philanthropist has ever made. Jay's mother Jay's mother at one point said until now we were merchants but now they know our name all over the world and it's true it's true true in America it's known I think more as the arts go although everyone knows Shanstein and they're going to right and it's definitely a tremendous and then they they've dedicated many other projects well Jerome It's funny everybody now every said Jerome in those days they called him Jerry but anyway he was Nebuchader and he was nifter after four or five volumes not more and Jay and Jeanie not only kept it up remember we visited mayor and I visited Jerome in in Columbus on his deathbed you know they set up like a mini hospital ran his ran his bed and he said uh he said Jay will do it. Said Jay will do it. You can trust me. Jay will do it. and Jay and Jeanie. Not only did they do that, they did the the Hebrew Bi, the English Yami, the Hebrew USI, the interlinear series and and and Jay and Jeanie both say they say publicly that u they they give us credit for changing their lives, for bringing them bringing them close to terror and feeling they have they Sharon maybe we changed their lives they changed our liv they changed Claudius they changed the lives of Claudia I mean just think about it the last the last mash 90,000 people in Metife Stadium 20,000 people in Barclay Center and how many people were were were were listening watching it on hookups all over the world unbelievable and the growth of could that could that had happened without the shot and steam family. Never. Never. It's an unbelievable accomplishment and it spawned many other projects because of that the popularity of the projects that J and Genie have undertaken and they're individual dedicators also of course. Absolutely. Who are so vital to the production of each volume. Now you're talking about we're talking about the Talmud. What would you say? I know this is kind of like a very general question. What would what do you say looking back over the last 45 years? What has been Arts Girl's greatest contribution if there is one? Not talking about books per se. ORS school's greatest contribution has been and continues to be Barak Hashem that it brought countless tens of thousands maybe even maybe even a couple hundred thousand into learning into appreciating Torah into respecting Tory. this criticism that they had of of Rabbi Herz's Kish. Who does he think he's talking to? Educated, sophisticated people. Educated, sophisticated people now now are learning art scroll far. They're learning shas and they reach a point they reach a point where they can do it on their own and just just go to our scroll for uh you know to check something if they're not told me and they they both told me that uh without art school they would not they would not have been able to learn dyi because you have so many responsibilities. ities, they would not have had the time to be able to to learn in addition to their shurum and everything else that they have to do. And they're not ashamed to say it. Mhm. They're not ashamed. What was the hardest project you ever worked on? The most difficult project. That's hard to say. I don't know. I couldn't maybe Eio was very hard. You know when I asked Rabbi Brander this question, I asked him what was the hardest project you have to you ever worked on. He told me there's no hard project. It just means it takes a little longer. Look, there used to be there used to be the the Navy engineers in World War II were called the CBS. S Eabs and their motto was their motto was the hard jobs we do right away. The impossible ones takes a little longer. Exactly. Nimrine was also hard because uh the word that the poetry to be able to to translate it correctly and and explain it, they're hard. So you on the Nim you wrote the commentary as well with the translation. Yeah. And that was also a wide-ranging project. Very hard but very satisfying. It's interesting. You know you just mentioned Rabbi Brander. We haven't spoken about him. This project without Rabbi Brander would not be the same. Rabbi Brandon is not only he's not only an expert in graphics, you know, he could he could be the number one graphics man in in Random House of Simon and Schustster or any any company. He's a graphics genius, but he's a he says for many many years and and he has taste. He when when he when when he's putting a page together, he doesn't just take copy and organize it on a page. He reads it and he makes comments. He's and and then he'll do some editing while he's at it. Also, he's a he's a genius. Yeah, we see we see it in the work and we see how an art scroll volume is immediately recognizable. you open it up, you know it's art scroll. And that, as you alluded to, is is credit to genius. Why do you think if you're not if you're not a graphics yourself, you can't appreciate what it takes to put together the page. You have, let's say, the um let's say the Kish page, okay? Unlim. And you want everything all of them to be on the page corresponding to the to the kumish. The last word of the taram on the page corresponds to the last word of the kumish on the page. And if you think that's easy, try it. It's impossible. And Shia does it. And Ripchia told me that the the genius of such graphics is when you don't notice anything that it looks so seamless and so obvious that people wonder what's what's what's so hard about it. I once saw well I before said if if you can't explain it to the to the wagon driver to the balagola then it's not right. Right. I once I once saw a comment um the background music of uh of movies the greatest tribute that you can pay to the to the composer is that he's not even conscious that there's music. It blends in so well. It sets the it sets the scene so well that you know you don't even know you're listening to music. Right. Absolutely. you, Rabbi Zladawitz and Rabbi Brander became this I would call you the dream team. You worked together. Mary used to call it he he got that he got that uh term from um I think Peggy Nunan that writer he wants the writer. Yeah, she had she she entitled the column a genius cluster and Mary used to use that the genius cluster himself and she and Rabbi Bolinowitz and Rab Sh and Rabbi Marcus and Hes Daniger and Hershel Goldworm and now you the genius cluster there's a lot of talent under this roof tremendous amount of talent but but you and Rabbi Lanowitz and Rabbi Brander with humility We're able to work together so well. I'm not humble. I'm honest. And with a sense of humor, which is very important when you're working under pressure. I think somebody once somebody once said he's he's modest. He has a lot to be modest about. Precisely. But you worked together as a team. And I'm sure it wasn't always easy, but you you you got along and and kind of fit together like pieces of a puzzle because each of you brought something else to the table. Speak about that relationship. That's another element that made it that made it possible to to succeed. There's never any politics, never any backstabbing. We could argue, we could disagree, but uh you you disagree because you're you're trying you're trying to find a proper solution and now and and now Gdalia fits into that scheme personally personally perfectly. I mean, yeah, we'll get to that in a moment. I want I wanted to ask you also when art scroll I would call it branched off to do something a little different from what the original outlook or goal was and that was when you started publishing all Hebrew volumes. It was the sidd and then kamashim. It was it was a different kind of undertaking because became known as the translator or the elucidator. But people appreciated the perfection and the beauty and the all Hebrew volumes have been a tremendous service as well. True. It seemed like the logical next step. You know pe many people ask for it. Mhm. They say, you know, they wanted something with the same level of perfection in in a cipher, an old Hebrew cipher that that they felt that they were getting in the the English works. Right. I don't know if this is a fair question, but is there any particular failure or mistake that you remember that was quite egregious and but you learned from it and you bounced back from it and you grew from it? Well, we've I think of what one particular cipher book It had a very poetic title. It was a very good book. This goes way back. I don't I don't I don't even remember the title anymore. But um it was a flop. Why was it a flop? And we felt because the title didn't say anything about the safer like a nice poetic phrase. You know, we learned from that that you have to uh you have to have a title and a subtitle that will that that will let the reader have an idea of what it's all about, what what what he might be getting if he decides to buy the book or to read the book. We had um the first sukus master that we put out had some had some mistakes. Mhm. It was put under pressure deadline. It just had some mistakes and um and we told people we told people send it back. You'll get a you you'll get a free copy. and we put it all into Sheamus. It was a huge loss. Huge loss. I think as much as, if I remember correctly, something in the area of $80,000, which at that time was was a large sum of money, right? You know what? It still is. And uh but we swallowed it. You know, you you can't you have no right. You have no right to to give the to give people tora or which is not correct. give you an example not necessarily something that we learned from although you could say we learned from it in the beginning in the early years we're doing safer ya after the five migillas it seemed like a logical thing you know a short safer it's everybody knows maft yam kipper and uh mayor had a good friend who was very very knowledgeable in in Giz Kaidesh. In fact, late in later years, he became a professor of Jewish studies at a certain university and and he was writing and um was you know he was reading says in one place he said Rashi made a mistake. Rashi made a mistake. Who were you to say that Rashi made a mistake? So we paid him. We paid him. Took the project away from him and started from scratch. Literally from scratch from Pekk Olive. That was it was a matter of principle. You know that's that gives you a good idea of what what Mayor's Lauder was all about. He was a businessman. Yes, he was. You know, you can't do things unless you unless you can pay the bills, but he was a man of very very high principle. Could have made a lot more money doing other things. He wanted to be a Marabyra and to do it correctly. Tell you another thing also and this is this this this goes back to the to the very beginning and it's very important. the um we don't we don't refer to to any non-orthodox sources, not not not Gentiles and not not so-called Bible scholars. We're here to tell people what the Torah says as as the Kazal understood it and as as as the the Rishim and understood it. That's it. and uh more modern people or what you might call progressive or worse have criticized it for it. Mhm. There was um in the early years there was a magazine called Moment still exists. Moment magazine I don't know but I've heard of it. I don't know. And Moment magazine was uh you know magazine of of of Jewish interest. It was uh they tried to to pro to uh pattern themselves after commentary but only in Jewish subjects. And they did an article on art scroll. Why? Half of the article half of the article was criticizing us for our translation of Shirro Shirim. It's a love song and they don't present it. You know they they they falsify Shiro Shiran half of the half of the article. Marvin Schik who is a good friend and a really outstanding outstanding person. Marvin told me he says that article is trash. They're criticizing you. You say you you you say from the outset, you say that we're presenting it according to and they want you to present it as a as an erotic love song. They're the ones who are not honest. You're honest. You said what you're doing. We we don't need we don't need Bible scholars to tell us that the word of Hashem is correct. You know, there's there's an old story u somebody's somebody's being taken on a tour of the the Louv, the famous museum, and he's looking at the uh he's looking at the the Mona Lisa and he's criticizing it. This is he says uh and the tour guide said he said, "When you look at the Mona, you're not criticizing the Mona. The Mona is criticizing you. You know, if people feel that uh people feel that this is not this doesn't take into consideration modern philosophy and modern kira and modern Bible criticism and archaeology. They don't they don't get it. They don't get it. We're presenting Tyra and they're presenting the Bible. They're presenting literature. We're presenting turrets to you were never trying to be all things to all people. No, exactly the opposite. Because when you try to be all things to all people, you really no things to anyone. Right. And that was your mayor's credo. It's been now several years since the arts school family lost her mayor. You lost a dear friend. And it's it's it's probably been a difficult uh a difficult time without him. But Klali Israel blessed us here in art school with who gave us Gdalia with Radalia's lots and talk about that transition and how ribbodal stepped in so valiantly and capably to continue to grow arts grow and the truth is the truth is that there was no transition no transition whatsoever mayor Gidal has been with us I don't remember when he started over 20 years maybe five years. I I'm I'm not good at those things. And um and mayor worked with him and he was he was privy to everything that was going on. So when that tragic moment came, he was he was ready to step into into his father's shoes. He's done a magnificent job. We see it in the products that apply. We see it in the product and and you Yeah. And and you'll see it if you could if if you could see the way the team works together, no politics, no backstabbing, you know, he's we we let him know from the start and it didn't even have to be said. It was obvious. We're here. We're here to make sure that he succeeds. And he's succeeding. Yeah. When you walk through the halls here, you feel that unity, the common sense of purpose, the lack of ego. I think it's tangible. And I I think also there's an energy here. You know, we're we're located right next to the binder. For the viewers who don't know, we're all in one building here, Arts Co Studio, the editing department, the sales department, and then we have a binder here where books are being produced literally 24 hours a day. 24 hours a day. And uh that's that's quite an amazing experience. Just talk about that for a moment. You started on Coney Island Avenue, moved later to Second Avenue, now here in Rawi, New Jersey to a state of of the-art facility and being able to print on demand and and that whole uh evolution and development. Well, we started when we started out, we didn't do our own binding and not our own printing. mayor was always opposed to doing our own printing because you know sometimes uh sometimes a job is not is not good. Sometimes there's somebody goofs in the print the doesn't work out. He said if you're doing your own printing you're stuck with it. If you're if you're contracting the printing out if it doesn't live up to specifications you refuse the job. And and every every every printer knows that. you know they sometimes they have to swallow a job and do it over again. Now we do printing because uh the process has evolved and developed been perfected. We used to use um we used to use a binder in in go New York upstate and um and then we decided we we had to do our own binding. So the we we had we took space in a building in um the outskirts of Burough Park, 36th Street and um 14th Avenue, an industrial building and and and we hired somebody who had been a career binder, a square, but he was uh he grew up as a binder. And we um and we brought in Phil Martino with a name like Phil Martino. Obviously, he's a nice good Italian boy. Also a genius in the in the binder business. His father was was in binding and he's in binding. And um and eventually Phil managed that binder. We ran out of space. We ran out of space in in our headquarters. Little building and little twotory in a b twotory in basement attached actually storefront building originally and something became available. This is an amazing story. A building became available on 44th and 2nd Avenue. Second Avenue in Brooklyn be a full block between 44th and 45th and it was an old building. There used to be an ink factory and somebody took it over and he wanted to use that as a warehouse and he decided uh not to do it. He didn't bother paying his taxes and the city was taking it over and it became available. We had had to come up with $930,000 within 30 days if we could get that building. We didn't have $930 in the bank after meeting a payroll. I had been I had been learning with uh Larry Tish who was the the chairman of Lowe's Corp and his sons. And this started uh in my my first my first year in art school called after I left after I left Stony yeshiva a friend of mine called and he said u his brother-in-law does business with the with Lowe's Corp and Larry Tish said that he's he's interested in this Torah. What is it all about? He's he he never he never learned alfbase. He was a a devout Jew, not Jewish religion, but for the cause of Israel, Jewish life, Jewish philanthropy. He was really an amazing person. And this fellow called his called his brother-in-law and he called me because, you know, I wasn't I didn't I didn't have to keep hours. I was more or less a free agent of working for art school. you know, my schedule is flexible, but I come. So, I started coming to the office once a week, an hour a week, and it was Larry and uh his his son Jim and uh son Tom and and another son and we we we became very very close, very very friendly. So when this building came up, $930,000. So I I went to Larry and I told him, "Okay, so he wrote out a check for $930,000. No, no contract, no IOU." And of course, we paid him back and we got the building and it it was a shell. It was a shell. squatters were living there. People had had to torn out the uh the pipes, the plumbing. So, we had to build it from scratch. And in Barash, we were able to get uh able to get loans, financing that became our headquarters. We were there for over 30 years, right? And then we were able to bring the bindering into our premises. So, that was the basement. No, not a basement. First floor. Mhm. And um and as as the company grew and as we were doing more books, we needed we needed more machinery. Kept buying more and more and eventually just it became too small. We bought the adjoining building and um and opened up the open up the wall and still too small. So, we knew that we would have to move and um so we had a couple of agents, you know, look for pro for possible properties. Couldn't be in New York because real estate in New York is too expensive. And they found something in New Brunswick which were almost ready to buy and uh and the seller backed out. And then this premises came along. It was mamaashka this magnificent building. Huge huge building. This this was a Regina vacuum cleaner company. Yeah. It was a major vacuum cleaner company and they were put out of business by China like many other businesses during the during World War II. It was converted converted into a defense factory making uh making things for the army like many like many big companies in America. General Motors stopped making cars. They were making tanks and who knows what else. Anyway, so um we sold the Second Avenue property and that and that was enough for the to buy this property and fix it up and here we are. There's one one revolutionary product that's made a very big difference called POD, printing on demand. It was invented oh maybe 10 years ago. It was fairly recently where you can uh you you you can print as many books as you want. You see in in the in the printing the publishing industry a lot of time is taking of setting up the machine for the to for for the project and then that can take hours and and a printing company has to charge you for those hours. you know that uh so the only way to make it economical to to to print a book is to print 2,000 copies. Mhm. Thousand copies it cost you a lot more. Less than a thousand copies is prohibitive and you don't always need so many copies. What do you need? So yeah, you have a you have a book that came out five or 10 years ago. It sells, let's say, 200 copies a year. So you're going to print a thousand copies and store store 800 copies for for four or five years, right? It's it's a huge financial load. When you're printing on demand, you can print can print 100, you can print 50, you print 200. So we we bought I think we started out with two machines. And that was really Shia's uh Shia managed that Shia brander. You know, he's a genius in a lot of things. He's a genius in that too. And um and there were bugs. It was a new product. But eventually the uh the manufacturers perfected it and we bought a couple more. There was no room on Second Avenue for all this. So here we are. And here we have I think we have six machines or maybe even eight machines and most of the time they're running 24 hours a day, right? And the quality is good enough. It's arts called quantity. You know, Mayor's Lawitz would not would not sell a book if it was not top quality. He would not do it. And Gdali is the same way. But here and you you have books that come out and they're as good as the outside product. So when you we need a large run of a book. So then we we have a broker who's been working with us for many many years and he does it. He has his companies that he works with or we'll have some things done in China. Mhm. But you know if you if you want to same done in China, you have to be has to be ready four to six weeks before you market and it takes time till you get it back. Whereas here we can we can do a POD book and bind it the same day and the next day deliver it to the stores. Yeah. Yeah. Ch. It's a game changer. Game changer. It's been an incredible experience speaking to you. And before we end, if it's appropriate, I want to thank you personally because when what did I do now? when when I was a to join art school and I got to meet with you uh you couldn't be more gracious, more encouraging, more supportive, [Music] um great guidance and really really heartfelt encouragement, more credit than I deserved and I want to thank you for that. It was very meaningful. You know, I'm part of the genius cluster. I could tell that you were what we needed. Well, I appreciate that. in a in a in a very v vulnerable moment and a very humbling moment. It meant a lot to hear what you had to say and the kindness and encouragement will stay with me forever. So I thank you for that and thank you for all you've done for Israel as a whole for enriching us for inspiring us for bringing us all closer to continue to do so for many more years. You make me blush. But thank you anyway. And thanks again for these uh couple of hours that we were to talk. Yeah. All the best. [Music]