Inside ArtScroll - Season 5 Episode 1: A Fascinating Trip Down Memory Lane with Rabbi Nosson Sche...

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to Inside Arts Scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. It's a tremendous honor to be joined today by Rabbi Nelson Sherman, longtime editor of the Arts Girl series. Thank you, Rabbi Sherman, for giving us some time to talk. Pleasure to be here. Likewise. So many people know you as the what I would call the father of contemporary English tyro literature, the longtime editor of Art Scroll. You've given Claius all tremendous contributions in many different forms and we'll get into some of them, but I'd love to hear about your history growing up in Newark, New Jersey, if you could tell us about that. I was born in Newark, 1935. Now, you know the secret. And uh I went to public school until until I was 10 years old. And um it was dur when I was in school it was during World War II obviously and there was all sorts of controls. You you could not you could not evict a tenant. You could not buy a house because of the war effort. So, we were living in a rundown neighborhood and um I went to a school which was not the best school in the world, but it was enjoyable. You know, I I got along with everybody. We had in fact it was it was um almost exclusively a black neighborhood at that time and there were three white kids in the class and that was considered a white class. I was really a pioneer of integration before Martin Luther King came along and I played with them. We played baseball. We did all sorts of things together. It I I there was no friction whatsoever. There was no day school for me to go to. The day school in Newark started a year after I began school. So when I was in the fourth grade, they were up to the third grade, etc. And um when I was in the sixth grade, my parents decided that uh they had to send me to yeshiva because Newark did not have the proper educational system. I have to give a lot of credit to Labavich. Baba Mat which at that time was run by Rabbi Scholam Gordon. a truly great man and um he became a close friend of the family after I was away in Yeshiva and I have to give him a lot of credit for for stimulating me, inspiring me to to want to go on to learn the uh he built up this lab beautifully. Then when it reached about 200 talmiden, they sent him to Worcester, Massachusetts to start a school there. And from then on, the tomato went down. But I was there during his during his prime years. And um when I was 10, I went to Terra Vidas in the dormatory, no less. came home for Shabas but I was in a dormatory all week and I stayed in Tervidas for the through elementary school the Vikana mifa bdish and bmedian and kyo so for what raids were you in the tomatra in Newark well I started when I was eight years old and I was there till I was 10 it It was interesting, you know, the world has changed when for me to get to the tora when he was a little kid, you know, I was eight, nine years old. I was taking two buses after school and my parents were were not afraid to let me travel. It never dawned on any of us that there was any danger and there wasn't any danger. Times have changed. Absolutely. Now, how many Jewish families were living in Newark at the time? When I was growing up, believe it or not, Newark was a city of 430,000. And there were over 60,000 Jews. So it was a sizable number of Jews. Over 60,000 Jews. And there was no yeshiva. There was no day school. So no yes, no day school. But there were shs I imagine. Oh, there were shs. Shs galore. And uh but the the power structure in the city, the Jewish community was reform and conservative. The orthodox shuls even the the people who came to shul were mostly not shre shabas very few shamish shabis and uh mostly elderly people many of them retired who had not been shabas while they were working there were people who were mafish for yishkite I mean I I don't want to paint a totally dark picture that's that kind of picture would not be true. But uh by and large the overwhelming majority were not from the overwhelming majority did not give their children any Jewish education. I remember we we had a mom and pop grocery store on a business street and there are three blocks of stores almost all of them Jewish owners and they were such Jewish people when they when they when they spoke they would say and then they would say what they wanted to say And on Shabas the stores were open and they would say Nishan Keagen Shabasette. I knew one man who I consider him one of the great heroes that I ever knew. He came to America and he could not get a job. He couldn't make a living. And it reached a point where he felt he had no choice. And uh he was a grosser, grocery store, he was open chabas. He was open chabas. And in later years when he when he moved to a to a better neighborhood, he he would walk two miles to get to the store because he didn't want to take the bus on shabas. He would figure out uh whatever math he could do in his head, he would do in his head to avoid writing on chabas. He had a shaggus coming in to put on the lights. There's a happy ending. His children and grandchildren are important, very highly respected in America and in our and you attribute that to the fact that he demonstrated an adherence script was important to him. Mhm. And I I've said many many times I've said many many times if we if our generation my generation your generation if we had had the kind of nanis that they had would we remain shmer shabas I would not want to bet on it. I would not want to bet on myself. Right? They went through terrible terrible cha challenges and they remained Jewish and they wanted their children to be Jewish. So, how were your parents able to do it despite the challenges financially and socially? They they were committed. My mother was a very strong woman and u her father well she came from Ukraine. Her mother was killed in a pogram. So, they sacrificed for the Yiddish kite. She came to America with her father and uh he lived with us. He died when on first ever shashana when I was eight years old and I think that had a big influence on the family. He was a an with a beard and my father came from Poland. Both of them had cousins in Newark. That's how they both ended up in Newark and that's where they married. But they were both strong committed people, committed people to Yiddish kite. When they came over, they didn't know English, I imagine. Of course not. And uh it was a whole new cultural experience. Cultural experience. And uh you know the many of the customers in store especially in the early years were Polish Polish Go. So my father spoke Polish, my mother could manage in Polish. It was very interesting. And my parents were just good people. We I told you we were It was in a black neighborhood and um and most of the people were poor and my parents if they had no money, which was very common, my parents would sell them on credit. You know, we had little sheets of paper in a little box at the name. We wrote down what they what they took. And then eventually when they got a job, they they would pay it off slowly. And when my parents knew that um that there was no money in their house, they would make the order and throw in a can of sardines or a can of salmon extra. Just just put it in free of charge. in Newark. What sh did you Davin and what sh did your family belong to? Well, we started out in uh in in the old neighborhood and um I used to go to shu with my with my grandfather and when I came into shul with him the average age went down by about 30 35 years. Give you an example of the attitude. the the president of the Kim and he was the he could have been president of the United States. He was a strong person. And I remember I remember one of the old-timers saying to him, "There are no there no young people here. What will become of the He was a man of few words." He said, "I won't bother giving you the Yiddish." He said, He said, "For us, it's enough. Our children don't need it." They said about him, I'm sure it's I'm sure it was an exaggeration, but they said about him, he had 10 children. 10 of them ate on Kipper. Nine of them ate kipper. And the 10th one, they said ate kosher kipper. Wow. My father Davul with with he liked the kazm and for kipper they had a choir also the raulic liter you know the the the kind of the old time and I didn't like the sh I had no patience for for you know what is 18-year-old Neaz for it. But um and many many other schs of course and almost all of them almost all of them when that neighborhood dried out when all the Jews moved out almost every single sh was sold for a church. Tragic. I know of only one shul that was not sold for a church. That was my grandfather. My grandfather wasn't living anymore and my father got involved in the shul. In fact, he turned me into a Baltic. Once he came home, I was 17. He came home with a schea died and this was during the summer. And he said, "And you're going to blow scheer. You're going to blow scheer." How old were you at the time? I was 17. I had never never held a chauffeur in my life and I was huffing and puffing and not a not a sound came out of it. And finally, finally I I learned to blow the sh I' I've been about ever since and we lived two miles away from the shul and I walked to the sh rashana and I go to the mikvah and we knew the mikvah because the mikvah was two blocks away from the store. I used to deliver I used to deliver groceries to the mikvah lady when I was a little boy and I come into the I come into the mikvah. I see black nuns and they look at me. Can we do something for you? And I said I'm here the the Jewish uh ritual bath. Oh, that's in the basement. the owner of the building had rented it to the uh to this nunnery and he kept the mikvah open and downstairs as long as they were paying rent. Need I tell you that the mikvah was not used by many women. Uh Rabbi Tites at that time built a magnificent mikvah in Elizabeth. He also built a magnificent sh in the middle of the reform area. Now, how far was Elizabeth from Newark? Elizabeth the the joining city. Elizabeth actually join adjoins Newark. No boundary in between. You know, you're you're driving down the avenue and all of a sudden you're in Elizabeth. And obviously people needed a mikvah. They use the Elizabeth mikvah. Give you another example of what it was like in those days. Um there's Rabbi Zeb Seagull, the father of uh Nah, father of father, right? And um he had been he had been in the urgun in Palestine pre-Israel and the British had a price on his head. So he came to Newark. He became Rob in the young Israel. And um he was a strapping young man, probably 6'2, very good-looking, charismatic person, very very fine man really. And he decided Newick needs a mikvah. And he organized it. He organized the the campaign. And the older Abonum did not participate because what happened not only in Newark but in most Jewish cities in America, they gave up hope. They they didn't feel it was possible to raise religious Jews in America. They gave up. And Rabbi Seagull was not that way. He was young and dynamic and forceful. So we bought a building. Meaning I was a teenager. I didn't I wasn't part of the building, but uh it was a community and the Jewish neighbors protested. It's a bath house. This is a residential neighborhood. You're not allowed to have a bath house in a residential neighborhood. And the Rabonim said, "It's a religious function. It's not a bath house. Orthodox Jews must have a mikvah. There was a a hearing in city hall the zoning board and they asked they tried to pack the hall. They asked the yeshiva brim to come. I was in I was in Terodas in Williamsburg then. I came many many of the yeshiva brim came. I must tell you it it was an embarrassment. Jews. Jews were getting up and saying in Europe they needed it because there was no indoor plumbing. If there wouldn't be a mikvah, nobody would ever take a bath. But we don't need this. And we lost. We lost. And finally, um, we bought a building in a on a on an avenue that did not have that kind of zoning. So Barak Hashem there was there was a mikin but just give you an idea of the obstacles to Jewish life and Newark was a typical city. New work was not at all unusual. It was definitely a different world and I imagine that going on into your next stage in life and going to a yeshiva like Tarvadas uh was an anomaly for an American kid. How many American kids first of all how many yeshivas were there to go to? They're very very few was uh it was a thriving yes Ishida but it was small not nearly as big as teras you had kerlin and I don't know I mean then you had you had Baltimore and you had yeshivas I doubt when I came to Tara Vidas 1945 I don't know if there were more than five or six yeshivas of that type in the country right and you joined Tarvadas what was your initial feeling when you did so you you hadn't been exposed to that type of intense tyro learning that environment big I loved it you loved it I loved it let me tell you we had um started out in the sixth grade the the rebby was Kaplan Rhir Kaplan he he was the Malamid of Rabim Epstein's father in the town of Mir in Lithu he was a magnificent rabbi I must tell you something about him he taught us d like his was he would have on the board skippers and he make a list of the the best boys in the class and they're going to skip. He's going to see to it that they go from the sixth grade into the eighth grade. And uh I can tell you the names of some of the skippers really distinguished and uh and then this dispa 15 meant that you have to he's going to keep you in for 15 minutes after Yeshiva and a list of names. you know, we knew that uh you know, he loved us and we loved him. There was there was this list of the 15 minute minute behemoths, you know, and the principal came in, Dr. Stern. So, one of the truly great men in the in the history of the growth of the Orthodox community, Dr. Stern came in and Rabbi Camplin turned white. These names are on the board. He went over to the board like this, stood at the board, he erased those names, but the back of his capot and we turned when he when Dr. Stern left and he he turned around, the back of his capot was white from the chalk. And I've often said you know Rabeno Kadesh Rabeno Nishna he said he said he saw Rab Mayor from the back. If he had seen Ray Mayor from the front he would have been even greater. We saw Mayor from the back. You know, you can hear you can hear a hundred mus and it won't affect you as much as seeing this man our rebi our rebi erasing those names from the bad list and and looking at his back and his and his back his white from chalk showed how much he cared about the boys. Yeah. And like you said, he loved you and you loved him. And well, when I was in MFA couple years later, it was a 10-minute walk from T the Mifa Turvadas to Yeshivana. A lot of times on a Friday after CL, we finished before the Shiva Victana, we went to visit him. And that that relationship sustained? Not really, but it lasted for a couple of years, right? And look, we we all speak of him with with intense admiration. Great lesson. Now as you moved through Tarvadas to MFA and then to B medish who were the other people who influenced you well and it sounds corny but I never had a rebi that I didn't like and um I had I had Rapam third year MFA what today would be called 11th grade and that was before he had a beard. But you know the the titkus the besides the the we all know the the adel kite the warmth the sweetness and all low key. He was not the dramatic rebby. He never was a dramatic rebi, right? But he he was the image of what to should be. And um then in in my years we idolized him. He was Ravaran Cutotler said he was the first American god. He came to America when he was probably about tw 12 years old. But essentially he he grew up in America. He he spoke English. The most of our band did not speak English. Learning in those days was Yiddish. Believe it or not, I was in Rafam's class for a year. We did not know that he could speak English. Now, at home, at home, you were speaking English or Yiddish to your parents. My parents spoke Yiddish and I answered in English. But I I learned Yiddish at home. I learned Yiddish to my parents. We we had boys coming from out of town who who couldn't speak Yedish and they they picked it up into yeshiva. I mean I was fortunate Bashem I had Yiddish speaking parents. I spoke Yiddish at home when I was growing up and then I started speaking English and they answered me in Yiddish and it was we managed. Right. And what did Raphure do for you both as a Rebi and also in developing your learning style. Well, Rapture first of all was a was a role model. He was um he he was he was young. He he he was a very he was he was a very handsome man. And you know and to young American boys that meant something. You know I I would never say I I I I would never say that the godlessure was that he was good-looking. No, of course not. But to young to young boys, he was that that meant something. And he was he he spoke our language. He understood us. The first time I heard him was um it was 1948. I was in first year in a sifter, ninth grade. And um Rabbandovich Lra was the man of the yeshiva but he was already not well at all at that point. Uh he had a very serious heart condition. He had to be in bed almost all day and he appointed uh Riban Riban Kameki Zatal and Ravure Zatal as kaleim. The original title was was Manal. They became Roshish Shiva later. Of course they were they were both Midesh. Roshi in the sense that they saidim in the bish and they they gave the same level she or was it one year and then no Rank when Ryan had taught and I'm sure had a base shir and then later he um after a couple of years as he had to give up the shar because there's too many responsibilities he was saying to Shar in his office maybe a dozen talum in in his office and constant interruptions because he was the man of the big issum. Wow. The dormatory had 300 boys. Tervdas was the biggest dormatory yeshiva of of the mainstream yeshivas. But the first time I heard him was uh when he became a Nile. I was 12 years old the first year of Sifa and and he spoke he spoke for the added he he spoke for the added towners. He spoke to the added tanners and and he said the pro says that Marsha Rabenu lived in the near the oil moy near the Mishkan and Kavakkesh Hashem would come to him and he said you are makashem you left your homes you coming to yeshiva to learn Hashem and like wow they made And he said a very interesting thing. He he had a gift. He had a gift for expression. He said at that time the pir Pisro in Williamsburg was very strong and a lot of Bim got became involved as leaders or helpers in one way or another and um which which he encouraged. However, he wanted you know don't overdo it. And he said he said you he said you have to work for the but don't forget the don't forget the individual who's called me. You know you're you're young you're in the stage of life where you have to grow and don't neglect your own growth. My my first personal experience with him was I was in Rapam's class and Rafam Rapam brought him in to far the class. Now they were about the same age and close personal friends. They grew up together in Terra Vidas and he brought Rafur into Farer the class had the class and he asked me to tyus in Giten. He has to be shot in the tyrus and I said the typhus and then and he kept on finally I said the terrorist gitten which was one of the major mafar the terrace gidden asked asked 14 kashes on this tus and he said efa there's there's no way to figure out the tus and he left and he left you alone yeah left me alone I was doing pretty well until then. But you know, couldn't expect me to be smarter than the terrace giten, could you? And a few days later, I I I was walking down the hall and he was coming from the other direction. He finally gave me a big smile. That made my day. It made my week. It made my month. But I I I became Barakashem. I was I had a tremendous su I became close to him. And how many years did you learn by Raf Shore? I was never in his class. You were never in Nishir. Never in this year. Wow. Because we hear you quote him copiously because speeches and writings he used to now it's the the safer alohu exists and I was able to get one of his sons made tapes of his and and he let me make he let me make copies. And sheir every morning for half an hour. A phenomenal shar. I mean he he had total recall. He could he could mention 20 25 different mfortion in the course of the year. And you know urgu is a very popular safer and deservedly so. Urgodal yo consists of uh of his the schmuz in the last three years of his life when u he was not in good health and you know in the old days people did not have sense to record shriim today everything is on is on CD everything is available in those days it wasn't done I just just imagine just think for a minute. If we could have the shurim of the Ravure Rabian Rafazan Rasheps, Rev Epstein, there's hardly anything available. Was that because there was no such a thing or just because people didn't think of it that way? Well, were there recording devices? were record there were recording devices. They're a big heavy literally heavy Mhm. and and clumsy and um not cassettes round big reels reels and the and and the tape would often get stuck. But then it was also it was frowned upon. You don't record a show. You had to listen to a shear. If you had to take notes, take notes. listen to a shir it's not a performance but then later it became this became the thing to do now you mentioned Rav Kazan who I believe was giving the highest shared when you were there right and after you completed his shir you moved on to Bad Balian right who made that decision for you that that would be the direction to take well you know if if you're a good ber and you wanted us to learn besellion was a place to go. The only comparable yeshiva to besellion was uh was Lakewood and in those years Bmeticellian was bigger and a higher quality than Lakewood. Mhm. And who were for a very simple reason because because tvidas this medishelian had boim who went through terraas like a feeder. We had some Yeah, we had some outsiders coming also, right? For example, Trum Tenfeld, you know, one of the great gain of of the period he was nif at the age of 56 or 57 but um he came he came from Europe after the war and he was in and he was came straight to Kazanirian but it was taken for granted if you if you're a good if you're a good bacher and you wanted to learn you went to Bmeticellian. Who were some of your contemporaries at the time in basement? Um, we wachener Walpin um the other Walpin brothers Rav Kleski who was [Music] Rash Mashstein who was Rashe B. It was really an honor role. Wow. And the Russian and Kashir, right? And the Russ the Russa were gadal and Ruven Gowovski at the time. Well, Ruven Gowski was Rashid Medal and Inter Right. And um was there a daily or weekly share delivered by either of them at the time? No. No. So you learned you learned and Ruven had the stroke actually two years before I came to this. I never heard a sh from him. He had a he had a stroke just when I was coming in to the bismish and I was mashamish. I was a biguss um when he was in the hospital in Colombia Presbyterian. I there are times and I was there overnight when in my Mhm. Uh we we took turns, we took shifts staying with him overnight. I was I blew shifer for him. He couldn't come to the Shiva. He was paralyzed. But um even though even though he wasn't saying shurim during my time in bishelion but the aura was still there when you spoke about the roshiva truven you know that that at the atmosphere that he created remained and especially since uh when I came in there there's still older brim who had heard from him right at the time Base Medalians in Muny and your parents were still living in Newark at the time. How often did you get to go home and see them? From Bishelion, the takona was you went you went for you went home for a shabas once in six weeks. If you wanted to cheat, you went once in five weeks. Mhm. But there was there was no policeman. There was a mashkum admap. But um he wasn't the mashk in the sense that he took attendance and he was on your down your back. He was the he was the the mashpa the the classic mashk and you were in medal when you reached marriageable age. What what happened at that point when you entered the para ofim? Well I went out like everybody else. I was uh I had sataya my wife my wife Shalom was the the second young woman that I saw. So bak hashem I had tremendous not only that not only that I didn't have to keep going on and on and on but to have such a wife and then I was in a kyo for four years post marriage you learned for four years and then at that point what did you feel you wanted to do if we would call it career-wise I wanted to be in I wanted to be in And I had a I had a I was promised a massifa position in a in a certain yeshiva and I don't I don't want to get into names as you'll understand why in a few seconds and then there was there was mus in the yeshiva and I was considered to be too close to the losing side and the winning side decided that uh how could I be loyal They couldn't trust me. All right. So I I ended up um working in a being a shipping manager for a year. I was this happened during the summer and I was high and dry and then Barak Hashem um Ripa Margolus the founder and the head of Shiva Tamima which is that time was called Turvasa Flatbush. He called me he offered me a position and I was there for eight years. In what capacity? I was a rabbi all eight years. I was also sag man. Okay. And for the last three years I was um I was I was English principal and then I went to Stalin. I was at Manal in Stolen for six years and then um Maris Ladoitz enticed me, twisted my arm and brought me into art scroll. And who made that shik between you and Rib Mayor? A very interesting story. Um my my very dear friend Nissan Wolfin was editor of the Jewish Observer and I I used to write articles occasia gda in Vienna. It's called Kavas in Vienna and U mayor read it and he liked it and he had Avi Shman who's himself one of the really really good people in American K. Have you ever heard of him? Yeah, of course. Oh, Aishman. Okay. And um and at that time he he was working for Art Scroll. That was before Art Scroll was Art Scroll. So, Art School at the time was a studio. Art School was a was a studio. Did wedding wedding invitations and did brochures and uh colored, you know, plaques and things like that. That's where the name art scroll came from. Mhm. Artistic scrolls. And mayor said to him, "I'd love to meet the person who wrote this article." And Obby said, "He's my friend." And he introduced us. And then occasionally mayor would ask me to to write copy for a for a brochure that he was doing. And then you know little by little the the friendship developed a relationship developed and when he was u embarked on doing migill you know the story of migill right I mean it's a quite well known by now but when when you were doing that initial copywriting for mayor you were still in a kinuk position. I was still in the position. You still working that on the side. Anybody in a position then even more than now today, right? When you have canine hurry, you have a growing family, you need some side income, you know. Mhm. I mean, in those in the good old days, if you're only two months behind in salary, you were doing very well. It was unusual to be only two months behind, right? So, some side income never hurt. And um so he was doing me get seester and he asked me if I would edit and I edited afternoon and uh and evening and I'm curious about he he we we know the well-known story about how Raair undertook the right est. Now did he give you the manuscript as he was writing to edit or did he finish the whole manuscript and then give it to as as he was doing it? as he was doing it was being type set and I got the I got the galls and I edited the galleys. So was it ready it was being sent to Ripshia Brander to do the actual type setting and you were editing that or were you editing his write his written notes? No, I I edited after it was typed. If there was typed and what did you think? What was your first reaction to this commentary that was being written by Rib Mayor? It was it turned out to be revolutionary. But did you realize that at the time? No. No. No. I I didn't. I didn't realize at the time. I thought I thought I was just doing a favor for a friend. I didn't even know that he would pay me, right? He asked me to help out. So, I helped out. And then all of a sudden, there's a check. And then he asked me to uh to do an introduction, right? which which we called an overview and overview became the standard uh sure your over 50 60 overview since then I've never it became synonymous with with the arts girl volumes right and so let's talk about that for a moment the overview how do you go about writing an overview do you do you have certain swarm that you go to do you sit on it and think about it for a few days what What's the process? I I start learning sor um what I in the early days what I what I remembered from there was nothing in writing yet. Um I would look in sus I would look at look my just immerse myself in the subject and then um and and then then I would start writing. I remember the first uh the first couple of overviews we we lived in Burough Park and I went to a went to a library public library I think it was in Bensonhurst I didn't want to do it in Bur Park because I need because I knew people people would come in and I talking so I sort of wanted to isolate myself had a couple of firm with me and I wrote I couldn't type I'd never typed in my life the writing long hand long hand writing longhand And it just took shape as I was writing. I was never I was never disciplined enough and still I'm not disciplined enough to make an outline. I just write I immerse myself in the in the subject and I have ideas what I want to say and I and I start writing and and the writing takes shape as I'm doing it. Can I ask how long an overview took at that time and over the years? How many hours are we talking about? I I couldn't break it down into hours. It's in in terms of time. It's also hard because I would I would be learning things, you know, when the cafer is in progress, I now have to be I'll be doing an overview. So during my free time at night and on Shabas or Sunday I I'll be looking at how many hours that took who who knows there only knows the actual writing could take um could take a week or so. Now getting back to the Moss Esther, you edit the manuscript, you finish the overview, Ra releases the Moss Esther, and the feedback is just off the charts. Off the charts. What was what was that like for you when you started hearing that it's selling 10 20,000 copies, I think it was, within the first I think it was 25 25 within the first between 20 and 25 for sure. within the first year and then the mayor contacts you again. What was the next step? Well, you know, it was supposed to be a oneshot thing. It was this memorial for his dear friend and that's all. I mean I was my my career was Finnuk and his career was Arts Go studio but uh it took off and u and people encouraged us you have to continue you see what happened was that you know the use was the old the old cliche an idea whose time had come. It's very important to understand the the the role of art scroll and why art scroll had to continue. It's very important to understand this. You had you you had a generation a generation and a half of uh of of Berim who went to yeshiva and girls who went to Byakov. Some went post high school and some didn't go post high school but they learning is safer was was an effort. We could read but learning was hard. So here you have something for the very first time. It would really the very first time it's u it it gives you a safer in in Tanakh and it gives you a readable commentary and an introduction and it's in your language and uh decently written. Hey, where where was this? Why didn't I have this when I was in yeshiva? So the idea whose time had come, nobody realized it until then. I would add also mayor didn't realize it until then. It was only after McGillisester came out that that we realized that something happened. Rabunel made this this accident happen. Right. I just wanted to add I that the fact that it was authoritative and scholarly as well, meaning that it was on a on an acceptable level as far as Torah scholarship. The level of scholarship is not comparable to what we have today. I mean, that kind of manuscript today would not be accepted. We've barashm it's we've come a long way since then, right? But at the time it it was a it was a good job. Don't get me wrong, it really was a good job. More than just acceptable, right? And um we were encouraged to continue. How can you stop? Don't don't you see how important it is? So we went on to McGillis Rus and then and again you were doing the editing and the overview. Rare did the commentary and I was still in the yeshiva. And you were still in yeshiva. Yeah. And I was in the yeshiva for another year after that. Mhm. And then also another milestone, we got a letter from from RA gift saying how much he enjoyed it and how important it is and how very very complimentary and the man I mean a man of that stature takes the trouble to write a two-page handwritten letter. And he didn't know any of you personally at the time. No. No, no, neither one of us. Wow. And um so mayor said we have we have to go and visit him. So we made an appointment and we we flew out to Cleveland. and we had lunch with him and his son-in-law Ram Khan Foyer came in the middle and sat with us and he became one of our very popular authors and Ravgifa said that uh he he would like to participate. He says send him gallies and he'll he'll he'll comment which he did for a couple of years. We sent him gallies and he and he sent back notes. Fascinating. which was very important for another reason because of all the the great Russia yeshiva Rav GIFA was the one who was uh who was absolutely fluent in English American born he was an American he was Americanb born right and so at meetings with the other Russia yeshiva the Biankeman he spoke about this and he spoke about how important it is now and how it's how important it is to encourage which opened the door for us. I I I had become close to Riana over the years late in the later years in ter uh and in Muny especially after after my marriage he was he was my sad kaducian and uh and my wife's family was very close to so through them I I developed a much closer relationship to him and Um, Rabiana was was a man he he didn't just give out complimentary letters. He measured every word. He heard from Rav Gifter and and he asked Rabbi Elias, Rabb Ysef Elias to read some of our of our sarim and report to him and Rabbi Elias said that they are good. Mhm. So, Rabiani became uh our foremost supporter. How long did it take till you decide to move out of the realm of and throw yourself full-time into what had become now a major endeavor of dissemination of Tyra? Yeah. Well, I started working on Migill's Esther um must be around Kaneka time and it came out before before Purim in 1976. And I finished I finished out that year in Stalin working working u full-time in Stolen and full-time in our school. How you do that I don't know but it happened and the next year I went into art school full-time and at that time Ripshia at the time Ripshia brander was doing the design you were doing the editing was Ripia was part of art school studios and what was your next big project that you worked on once the McGillas had been put out the um the Kisha's braces Mhm. masterpiece, right? Masterpiece. It's it's it's one of the tragedies, one of the minor tragedies, but a tragedy in Jewish life that um he wasn't able to continue and then do the other commotion because his responsibilities just increased to the point where he he could not manage to sit and write anymore. And after that you undertook to put out the sedar the Mishna or the Mishna first right and um and again your role was doing the the major editing editing. Yeah. And who was writing? There was there was a time when I read when I edited everything. Mhm. And after a few years that became impossible. Right. So there were projects that I edited and I did some I I I I wrote and I edited and I was available whenever I was needed for anybody else but um it's just impossible to read read everything and certainly impossible to edit everything. So you complete the McGillis Mishnayas as you mentioned before the Kish Fracious that Ra wrote and the next big project is the art scroll Siddar. Mhm. What was the process and the evolution of writing the translation and the commentary for what would become Clalis's go-to sid with an English translation. Interesting story. Uh we had somebody who was working with us at the time in charge of sales, Steve Blitz. Now he's in charge of our uh Israel office. We mayor and I want to do a sitter like like the braces. There'll be four or five volumes in a complete and explain everything and bring them a far and blitz said you're crazy. Who's going to use such a sitter? You need a sitter that that people will use in shaw. You need a sitter that people can actually dive in from every day. And he was right. Oh, was he right? So any the idea of the sitter was I mean first of all the translation had to be it had to be accurate but also it had to be readable and the commentary had two goals. First of all to explain the difficult language things have to be explained in the sitter obviously but more than that we wanted the sitter to be something that would inspire people. They would dav they would have feeling for what they're denying. It it could affect them. It could affect their lives. And u so so when I chose what to include in the sitter aside from shot of course which is essential you have to explain people have to understand what they're saying but aside from that the commentary had to be something that would that would appeal to people that would make them feel closer to closer to God and barak we had it it clicked over Over the years, we've had any number of people who've uh who've called us or who met us or who wrote us that the sitter changed their lives and more than a few who said they became Bali Chuva because of the sitter and the sitter was unique because not only did you have a commentary but it also had instructions which I think is an overlooked but a very very important component like Avi Gold who was one of our editors at the time said it tells you when to hop, skip, and jump. Exactly. And that's also something. It's true. And no other sitter had that before. Exactly. And over here it was clear. Plus the collection of denim in the back. Right. Absolutely. That was also important. But in writing the commentary, was there a system that you used to decide what to include and what not to? I'm sure in a on a certain level it was harder to cut down than it was to find material because like you said you could have written five volumes on the sid. So what system do you use to determine what to include and what not to? I tried to put myself into the into the position of the reader. Give you an example. Um when I was in our palms's class we spoke about palm before. I asked Ra, "What could I undertake another lemut aside from the from the regular yeshivida curriculum?" And he said, "Learn the vim shiny with a mitsudas." And it was what the mitsudis does, but I felt at the time is as if I was writing it because he just tells you what you need to understand what the person is saying. So in response to your question, how did how did I pick what to include? First of all, I put myself into the position of a reader who doesn't know much about the sitter, which was very easy for me because I didn't know much about the sitter either. What do I need to understand it? and also something that that appealed to me that inspired me when I read it and I felt that it would inspire the other readers as well. I would put that in. I avoided complicated things because when somebody's dabing, you know, you're not learning the eun, you know, it's it's more like dy than than an right now. the style of the siddther with the Hebrew on one side, English on on the other, commentary on bottom. Was that the initial vision that you had for the sidd? Yeah, because that's what we had in the Mishna also, right? Because it's interesting that later on transliterated became a popular option. Um, and you know, you translinear not transliterated, correct? Um, what we call interlinear rather. Um there is there is a transliterated center but that's something else entirely right. So the interlinear option some people like but you you went with the opposite pages and with the commentary on bottom and that it took off. I mean, the Cidd has sold literally millions of copies, right? It's true. And is still to this day the classic cider. You could say it stood the test of time. And um it must be an incredible feeling to have impacted people's in that fashion. It's it's it's humbling to feel that let me be the to do that. I I don't I don't have the words to describe it, but it's humbling. [Music]