Inside ArtScroll Season 2 Episode 21: Interview with Rabbi Avrohom Neuberger

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to inside art scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today we are privileged to be joined by Rabbi Aram Newberger chief editor of the brand new safer kavim released by art scroll. Thank you, Rabbi Newberger, for being here. My pleasure. Now, I should mention before we get into our conversation about sav time, you are by no means new to the arts school family. Not at all. You've been writing for many years. Uh you've worked on the Shanstein Talmud both and and your Shami. Um what else have you worked on other than that? Well, I um well I work this project actually is a conjunction with her foundation. Exactly. So I publish positive positive vision together with the same type of and also um rabbi rabbit riseman risman has contemporary that I was I edited as well. Yeah. Now this was a major project of which you were the chief editor. So there's a team of who worked on the elucidation of the let's back up a little for those who know those who may not know as much. Right. What is the obviously was written by the right? Right. Right. And defined him he became he became known as because of this. Right. Right. Right. But also wrote another safer called safer. Right. Which some people don't realize is actually a separate safer. Right. So just tell give us a little background what the addresses and how it differs from the right. So there should be different sections in the in the bookshelf. There's the halaka section with Mishna Bura and even leaf ki's deruna is supposed to be there and it's it's primarily and it focuses on the of it doesn't get into the muser primarily it's about all the obviously in the does get more you know inundic but it's primarily about and if you're going to learn in yeshiva you have to learn in is the is the inspiration and so forth to to some inspire somebody to stay away from speaking lash and har um the the goal of the safer was very much and know was my goal was to make this point clear because I know when I learned when I was in yeshiva you know that was something to learn like during mus because I know exactly n who cares you know it didn't make a difference so much the main thing is I should be inspired I learned by two two alakas a day and I'm good but it's not true It's it's really it's very complicated and you have to know when to speak when you're allowed to speak when you're not allowed to speak when you have to speak. All that has to be clear clarified and that's what we're trying to do. as opposed to which is like an inspiration for is really about but I have to say that the passion he couldn't control himself like in sometimes like he'll go on the whole tribe about what goes on in you know and smooing and so forth which is not specifically but like the his passion comes across in too like right but it's primarily it's really it's about and you need the same degree of clarity that you have when you learn anything else. Mr. Bur Shabas, you need the same hook, the same clarity when you learn. Now, in a conversation before this interview, we were smoozing about this monumental project, right? And you mentioned that it was a particularly challenging elucidation, right? More so than let's say the the work that you did on the Shanstein Talmud, which is a Velt project that that has changed the world. You and all the other who worked on that. Why was safe time so much more challenging? So, okay. So, there was a couple of of issues that that we had to work with. Um, first of all, the way because he made like there was no the cynics if you don't mind me bringing it up say that you know what the whole is not true because he's taking a mid and making out of it. Midas are midas and there's a guy who wrote a whole diet tribe about that. Yeah, whatever. You know, and and it's true. It was a he he he codified midas ku. But it's not true because it that it sounds like a cool t like you know intellectual t they could say in the university somewhere but it's not true because just go it doesn't if you had your feet on the ground just not true. There's a ta somebody has to figure out exactly what when yes what not. Yeah. Ape there's um in the like a million different things but the is just talking about which were scattered in different places in sh but what concrete it's not true there's a mean like we spoke about that's true but there were that had to be addressed and for for those viewers who don't know what a is say speaking in front of in front of three people that once okay there's there's five different in aa look at uh we have a whole introduction on it but um the most common way is that once everybody knows about it once three people know about it then it becomes to to share there's a million different time which limited which I want I want to talk about that but just for a second to go back the wrote this say for in the late 1800s or so right the was about 100 years ago was it is it surprising to you that over all the years no one ever wrote a safer like Um it's interesting. I mean the Rambam in in Hil in in in Hil's day is at the end like he does put it down as you know as as also does. Why did nobody else do it? It's interesting. I'm not sure exactly why that was. Um and it's it's a it's a cash mashes. I guess he had someone had to put it together in one place. I'm not sure the I'm not sure. Who knows? Who knows what the reason is, but it was a it was kind of a a preparation for the age of technology. Yeah. Yeah. I'll say. Yeah. Really? The safer came out, right, some decades before technology exploded, right? Right. And um you know, I I know we're diving right into it here, but there seems to be a a palpable difference today once we're talking about Lashinhara between print media. I know you advise Mishbah magazine in in in elements of what to print, what not to print. and online media. Whereas print media seems to be very vigilant about what's printed. Yeah. And in online media in certain venues, certain platforms, it's like the wild west. If there are allegations against someone, the these platforms run with it and then people comment on it and it and end up I would imagine clear violations of of I can't I can't imagine what the what the guidelines I mean that they have to have to even to regulate what they're doing. Listen the there's al that if everybody knows a certain thing um a certain a certain piece of information that might be negative. There are situation when you when everybody knows about it anyway so you could share it. That's true on on with the right to know I'm being present but the problem is that one clear Allah is that you can't expand it further like beas is one and not to the second city. So the whole goal of the website is to be mfarmed information further, right? That's what they're trying to do. Otherwise, they wouldn't be in business, right? So they're trying to be mafar information that was had a limited audience to a large audience. That's not kosher. That's nefarious and it's in the worst possible way destroys reputation, destroys everything. That's what it's all about. And that's that's the whole damage of it. And I don't know. It's like I don't it's the wild it's exactly like you said. It's the wild west. I don't get I don't get how it's not regulated more. I don't It's almost not possible not to expand the sphere of influence. Right. Right. Right. Right. Of course. I mean, I guess you could say like you said, if everyone knows it, then everyone knows it. Why would it be reported? Right. Right. And if people don't know it, then it's a problem. It's no different than sitting in surely if the shakers and people are smooing tees drop on the latest uh hawk and and it become it becomes like like public information and it's like it's the wild west is exactly it's hard to understand the like what's going on and the only reason on the web like since it's like not such a kosher platform ku I okay I just you know there's there's there are certain websites that I'm far from people's simas you know and people are over the gear bearerish there like like I don't understand what's going on like why where's the protest against it like I'm just saying I'm I'm jumping to a different topic but like how can there so like if it's on the internet I guess people just ignore it I don't get what's going on there's a it's a bigger topic for a different conversation I mean I think the basic the basic premise seems to be and maybe this is more for good to convention session than for an interview about a brand new safer but but to wrap this up I think um my own novice opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Is that because the it was sketchy about how to deal with the internet. So it kind of once the genie was out of the bottle, right, it was never put back in and and and that's the result. But it's got to be it has to be regulated. But but the reason why we discuss it here because it's an important topic, extremely important topic. You know, if the if if if neb from Jew is accused of embezzling money, right, and it's reported by the mainstream media, right? Why in the world should the from media ever report such a thing? Right. Right. Nobody's business. There's no there's no talis. You're expanding the the sphere of people that that know about it. You know, the guy has to bounce back. People have a right to do chuva. You know, there's no everything's regulated. It doesn't make any sense. It does not make any sense. Mammish in a second. a a person's livelihood, their reputation, their family's reputation could be destroyed in one second. In one second, I I I I was once um I I I just I'll go my own history a second. I I came to Oscar because of Molinditz Mulowitz who I was extremely influenced by. He was like was unusual person had more energy than than like five people roll into one. He died 68. He was just a barrel of information of of of information and and energy was like unbelievable. Anyways, he introduced me to Ars um and um I was and he was also a dian and a ro he a million different hats. So there was a an accusation came out against some of course a prominent person and I asked him you know I was the curly I say buck maybe at that time but curling right I said is any is any smoke is now you fire with the smoke he says I have no idea but all I know is that if you make any accusation against anybody you can't defend yourself if they if if they accuse me about something what are you going to say you know the accusation is the killer and you you put something like this in the paper somebody embezzled I don't know maybe yeah maybe not what there's always two sides of the story people call call me up wrong. People call me up about I said you're wasting your time. you're wasting your time because you're going to make me a beautiful case that's going to be 100% you that that the guy was wrong and you're right and I'm gonna and and I could tell you according to you today I'm going to pass I'll tell you what you what but you're wasting your time because as soon as I speak to the other side it's a whole it's called because you need two people to say each side it's ridiculous and you're wasting your time and any who says one who particularly who says it doesn't make any sense you have to hear what the other side said it's it's it's ridic so so like somebody a bezel something whatever this one side against another side you have to most of all start them it's it's it's absurd yeah 100% now getting back to the safer getting back to the safer yeah so so you're talking about what what made it challenging what made it challenging what made it challenging is so was dealing with original text that had no as per se in other words there was no he was making a he was making a from calling different sugis and putting it together as as as so there's always there's a lot different and every single that's what makes it so hard to pass about about whatever comes up there's always you have to keep so many things up in the air. So when he's writing the he's covering for all those different within a sentence with within a single sentence. So the by the time in the 21st century mind has end has ended a sentence that has gone on it's like reading some follow you know these long sentences you know you know what happened at the beginning what happened there was so many time in the middle it's confusing keep track yeah it's hard to keep track so like when we wrote it we had I like I had to realize okay I'm going to have to stop the sentence in middle of the time ku in put a period and then restart the sentence with the with the further time just to make it uh uh to make it readable that was that That was one thing and all these all these innovations took time like to realize how to go about it. Another thing was that um that he uses pronouns the mapp and it gets confusing who like when you're translating it. Yeah. Yeah. Who spoke about who against so at a certain point we we decided that we're going to put in um a proper noun instead of pronoun. So blue veins again. So it it all these things made it challenging. And then the third thing is like in you want to know you were asking me why it was harder than Gammorra. In Gumor we had a mahalak you wrote Gomorrah Rashi and problems. Gomorra rashi flourish and alo rashi is like you know you you know from any time you learn without rashi it's like impossible you know rashi is unbelievably he just walks you through it. So there's no rashi right. says and then what's so what's now like see I have a problem with so we chose the ones which explained what he was trying to do and the but but if there's a problem with something like where do you look so so you do quote from quite a few contemporary sar right right excellent sar excellent sar unbelievable there's a table called from somebody calman I would love to meet this fellow if anybody that's out there knows who he is I would love to meet him It's unbelievable how well he went through this things with he went through the suggest from the from the top down. He has a huge amount of notes in the in the back of the safer. Unbelievably thought he had excellent task also. I have no idea what it is. I went through I think five different printings but and it's hard to find it in the regular for excellent excellent and then extremely good extremely good and so like psychologically I have to get over the hump of quoting contemporaries which is you know you like okay that's but to quote we even in art school we there was a there was an aversion of quoting contemporaries you you don't get down to look looking I don't know when I don't know some height was safer on one s you didn't do that but over here you know was only 150 years ago so you have to get used to quoting contemporaries but that was it it was also another schlav and themselves are very complicated they're just complicated and it's not a mus it's and you have to get the facts straight there's um there's there's A there's um uh an area of Allah called that where even though the person is um uh is an am but you're you're saying the lash so that people should as he calls it people should know that certain behavior is not acceptable. Now obviously that's a dangerous area but the has a whole about that and in the and the and the goes through in the it's extremely complicated and I think in the volume two we're going to make a whole appendix about which when you're just reading the you just you know whatever you're winging it you know so are you are you saying that but does the elucidation make it enough meaning approachable that men or child who picks up the safer that they'll be able to navigate us. Yeah, that's what we tried to do. Hopefully, we we accomplished that. You know, the time will tell if we did if we did it enough. We assume that was the whole op the whole goal was clarity, clarity, clarity to make it something that's um is anyone in particular that you want to give credit to because I know it was a team of anyone in particular you want to give credit to as far as So, so, so a couple things. First of all, Rab Ary Dana had written an earlier translation of not art style, not linear, you know, Hebrew bold, you know, and then not bold. That type of direct translation did not exist. Uh, but he had he had a translation of the safer that he pushed Mr. Roshelle to to have it done art style. Um so and and we did use his original translation sort of as the basis for the translation that I used. It was you know it was the background. He also contributed towards the notes you interesting things also I should throw in that dish has a copious amount like on on all over the place. amazing uh uh research. Um and then there was rais who was na two years ago. He was the manal of Shagas and and he was a town of the Manchester and and very very close with him and and the mentor of Rashiva you know really pushed the whole two halok a day is from the it's his innovation. is right. It's his innovation and he was fire about writing making an art scroll type of and he did you ever meet Rabbi Weiss? I met him uh very I met him on on on the phone many many times but not in person. Somehow we we kept not some we never but but I spoke to him I don't know endless amount of times and he was so encouraging and he was so wonderful. like he that side. I had no idea he was he was that sick. Even like, you know, he would say something here and there, you know, and at the end suddenly his voice suddenly went out. I said, "Oh, what's going on there?" And then I found out from maybe that wasn't well like Yeah. But he was he was so passionate about it and he was the first review of the safe. In other words, you know, in art scroll there's the writer. This this going back a few years ago. So this is a project of Yeah. Yeah. About four years. Four years. Yeah. So basically, I was the only guy working on it. So um so I would send it to him and he would write back his hisist know like in an art school project there's the writer there's the editor and there's the reader the reader so he was a reader and his reading and his his were almost always about clarity about making you know he was pushed to Ruven Shiman that was his idea very much um there's also Mrs. Applebound was very very involved in getting this project done. But yeah, but he pushed it, you know. He said anything for clarity. That was his that was his thing. And his whole encouragement was I my screen saver is is Rab Weiss. He was amazing. He was really an amazing person. I wish I got to know him better, but the safe for him. Um and after he was nifa then Rabbi Loi uh yeah who's a big from Toronto. He's a big po and he's a big expert. He's like the poic for foreign heritage foundation. So he reviewed the safer from from beginning to end which was also a source of security for me you know to know that somebody of that stature is is reviewing the safer. Yeah. Is there one area of sal now that you went through the cafer in writing it for four years. Yeah. Is there one area that you find that the ham the masses are lacking knowledge in one nuda one something that's or or something that was eye opening to you? Well, you I tell you what was eye opening like this. Um to in any obviously I became much more aware of it, right? It it did act like I must have saved on me specifically, you know, um because I'm a sch smoozer. We could talk but so I like I like smoozing. So but you any conversation is fraught with that possibility. But uh one thing that came across was that in any given conversation to veer a conversation away from horara you know from regular people is not that hard you know I I heard there was one r that gave a speech about about lash and he asked what do you do if somebody like said well what do you think about that guy and you're in conversation you don't want to stick you know you been make he says there's one word that'll save you from every listen horror whatever just whatever that you're not being masculine you're not making a face you're not saying anything you're not looking like a whatever like you just we we reran someone once told me the best way to stay out of out of the trap of is to talk about issues not people yeah right that's true right about topics right so so that's so I discovered you could be a good sch smoozer on topics right so what what I discovered was that that so in any given conversation you could always whatever ku you know and reroute the conversation and talk about something else but like the talks about the Bali lash like there's a whole soup called balhara those people I don't want to say the poison you every single conversation that's how their mind gravitates it always is about the schmutz you know what I mean and like there's almost no way to converse with such a person without without talking like you know and these are it become it's a whole way of life if If if is abolish really act has to reroute his way of thinking it's it's a it's like a poison way of thinking that was very much an eye openener for me like somebody that the people who who just tend towards Russian really have like I have an interesting question someone once asked me yeah and we didn't I didn't tell you that I wanted to discuss this but it just came to mind someone once asked me how come in the from publications there's no such a thing as a restaurant review I remember someone once asked me and I head because we can't really be honest. Right. Right. A restaurant review is designed that if you love the restaurant, you're going to say how great it is. But if you don't like it, you're also going to say so. But who in their right mind in a front publication is going to want to hurt someone's parnasa. That's a practical example of where in the a restaurant review is a very normal thing. Right. Right. Right. To us, we're we're we're allergic to such a thing. We would never think of hurting someone else as part of us. Right. Right. in a in a book review which we do have right book reviews we have but they're basically all all all you know praising the product well you we're sitting in the oscal studio over here you know they the again the philosophical world has tinus on the hegeography they have a word for it hagography that that that the demographies are only focusing on they're not they're not getting around in the in the in the you know in the there's something called the Russian hor you can't just justify it off the cuff the thing is You know I I mentioned before the MS right MS is an idea where you see it's not about not talking when things have to be criticized that's supposed to be criticized even though the specific is we're talking about somebody who is that means he's consider he hasn't done anything that's so bad he's not a normal and he's not a he's not a moister he's not anything that's he's not awful But he does a various that have influence on other people and therefore you want to speak negatively about him so that people should not follow his lead. That's basically it. Or maybe himself will change. But the guy still but to do so if you know he's still in the same in the same thing. It's very complicated. Now there something you have to also correct society's ills. It's it it is a tricky thing that it's not just about not talking. You know when things have to the famously said that when it comes to leaders this becomes even more amplified that oh he's a person so you're not allowing anything about him. He he doesn't he goes the opposite direction. When somebody's in a leader in a leadership position and his in and his views are influential, then that's the reason why actually you could be more critical of him because you have to make sure that his views if they're wrong and you better be sure that you're not coming with their own agenda and not influencing people in the bad way. It's like it's a tricky thing. Yeah. But people use the the term leelis. Yeah. You know, freely to to enable them to speak about certain things. And I think the one area that's prevalent even to those who are really really careful about it's very hard to get out of the way. Someone calls you up as a reference and asks you very specific questions, right? What guidance would you have? Someone calls, you know, do you know anything about the person's siblings? And there's a sibling with uh an an emotional issue, right? How to navigate that, right? Yes to say, not to say, when to say, how to say it, doesn't matter. We're in the in the process of they're holding, right? So on and so forth. So, I I'll be honest with you. I even though I already wrote the safer, I don't feel 100% confident to answer such questions yet. I would say I'll call up to make sure I get it right. Um but I will say this much that in the second volume we're going to have a special appendix on onim yeah we're going to have an appendix mashm um onim on media on the media which is obviously main thing and also ms which is a whole suga that when you learn the safer you want to find out exactly how that's working but um but in general um you I don't think you say you could share information that I and know I don't even want I don't want to say this because it's there are so many there are so many so many variables there are so many variables because there is a different level of obligation to somebody that you know on a personal level or somebody's just calling you from like if a RV calls me from left field and he wants to know well tell me about this family what what do I have to say about this you I'm not going to get into details what do I know about your family in other words So is it a problem? It depends. So if I would say all the details then nobody's going to get in. Nobody's going to get married. You know what I mean? That's from I find about my family. Who knows what you know this everybody can everybody has their things you know. So you have to you really have to know whether when it's a tailis when it's not and it does too many variables almost I have a question for you is so complicated right. Is it really possible? I know this is a loaded question. Is it really possible for the layman Yeah. who study safer and whether they study safer for the ethical aspect of it or not we'll leave aside because I think that's a major component of it if you understand the emotional ramifications of Kashmir then hopefully you'll connect much more to the part of this but let let's leave that aside is are hilar so complicated that the layman can't pick up the safer and master enough so that they could apply it in their Okay. So I'll tell so I'll answer I have a good question. So I have two answers this I mean two examples to answer the question you know um when it comes to right most questions if you don't know hashabas at all there's no meaning you're going to keep shabas properly you could have all the inspiration like you love shabas to death like writes in his in his right exactly you just you just don't know what to do is complicated whoa they complicated you know is so so what do you do So after you you you you reach some level of competence then you know how to keep 80% of the and 20% you better ask and and be careful about or 90 whatever 90 as he as you become more and more competent if you don't any and you don't any at all then you you're gone as you become more more competent the sphere of of becomes more and more small but if you're not going to become basically cognizant of it's very hard to yeah to uh to get exactly you think the more knowledgeable you become. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Then the less you saying you always you have to have a robe. You don't have to have a ro. Right. Right. Right. Right. But hopefully and also when when you're answering like somebody calls you up about a Lord's question about you know about you have to say you know I'm not sure exactly. Let me call back. I'll call you back without I don't have time right now. You don't want to say that's going to undermine very I've heard from from big Rabonimum who said that the the key for people to learn is to know what question to ask. Exactly. And that's really what you what you did here this elucid this elucidation will enable people to know what's a shila without learning it. You don't even know what the shila is. You didn't even know that there is a shil. Right. Right. Right. So this this safer is really an amazing the clar you you were speaking about clarity from going through it myself. I saw how clear it is, how easy it is to understand. One big one big feature I want to say is that we added you you asked me if it was good for ages of right different ages. Yeah. One thing we did is we add scenarios which is in other words we try to make it that was being portrayed you know as a on a practical practical level a lady you know and is so you know one of the that he talks about is that if you can't get out of say you have to give up your job really so what are you going to do about that there's a lot of scenarios that bring it yeah yeah yeah bring it down to earth exactly you know how to relate to hilushinhara in a tangible way Um and uh that was also another like like a psychological hurdle to get over like cuz in a regular arts school work that I was working on in the past you never have something I'm a me that way something like you know so so so relatable to right so relatable like you know this cipher but it's not that we so we had to bridge that gap of making into something that's like you know tangible with scenarios and so forth it was interesting. Yeah. Well you've done a masterful job. I hope so. We want to thank you on behalf of all the people are going to benefit from this amazing safer. Thank you for all your efforts. Thanks as well to all the who worked in tandem with you to bring this to publication and we're looking forward to in a year or two whenever it is that you put out volume two. We'll look forward to that as well. So thank you Rabbi Newberger. Thank you for joining us and continue in your raon and being people. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you. [Music]