Inside ArtScroll Season 2 Episode 20: Interview with Rabbi Nachman Seltzer – The Insider

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to Inside Art Scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today we are joined by Rabbi Nakman Seltzer, author of a brand new book, The Insider, about the life and times of Israel cats over. Thank you, Ribnakman, for joining us. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. So, I must tell you right off the bat that we've heard from readers here at Art Scroll that this book hands down is one of the best you've ever written. Could you tell us why you think that is? So, Israel Katz is actually one of the one of the most unique people that I've written about. The reason he's so unique is because he bridges many worlds. He himself, you know, he wears a keeper, but he grew up in Katamon. He went to shed. He's close to the Belba. He was close to Ysef. He was close to Prime Minister. He was close to He's close to BB Netany. He's close to people who are from not from Mizrai in the middle. Every type of Jew, beloved by everyone. He's been part of the PE. He's been a journalist, a very very successful journalist, military, dipl diplomatic, political for over 50 years. So he's a very unique personality who's really been all over the world. And when you take that, combine it together with a person who's an close to it, it really encompasses all of the different camps and just so much of Jewish history in the last 60 years. You got to have a very interesting book. This is what comes out. And this book is packed full of stories. Every it's a real page turner. Every other page is another interesting encounter with a politician with a gudle, his forays into the music industry. It's just an unbelievable collection of fascinating vignettes and anecdotes. And there's a lot to get to. We have limited amount of time but let's start with one particular incident we'll call it when Israel almost brought down the government due to his stance on Shmeir Shabas. Talk about that for a moment. So he told me that what he got he got a call from the army army spokesman's office. They tell him that he's invited to an event where America is bringing in four F15s from the first time they're getting this plane and it's landing at an air base. He he took down the date and he realized he must have made a mistake because the dates Arab Shabas the actual ceremonies of Shabas candle lighting time and he basically says it's got to be a mistake. You you the army is supposed to keep Shabas and it can't be that you're making this huge event that's going to cause tremendous shabas because thousands of people are going to come to the to the air base to be part of the event. So what happens he he's he talks to Ysef about it. What should he do? and he tells him he should try to to get the event stopped and he speaks to the head of the air force and the head general Benny Pellet he says nothing to talk about it's going to happen and Rabbin knew about it and everyone knew about it and pellet says to him let's I'll bring you a helicopter I'll take you back from the army base to Katima where you live you'll get there before Shabas he said it's not about me Benny it's not about me it's about the people coming it's Shabas it's wrong the state of Israel should not be involved with Shabas so they didn't listened to him and in the end he went public with it which was a little bit against the rules and he's not cuz the sensor has still not given permission and he broke the rules and he it didn't work and they had the event now he was the secretary for a party in the kess called pi poor so the next week right after the event he submits a no confidence motion in the government he's able to do it because of his role in the ket and he gets it signed by differentets and he submits it and the government fell. Rabin's government fell because of this of what he did. He brought down the government. The only civilian in Israeli history to ever bring down the government and he did it for Chavis and after that Rabin who used to be friends with him was very upset at him especially his wife Lein wouldn't look at him and even wouldn't talk to him. If they were at a a briefing together Rabin would not look at him if he asked a question he wouldn't look at his eyes when he when he answered it. He was very upset at him and he said to me for many years this was this was going on and then like 10 years later I think it was he's at an event he he was on a on a on a briefing and I I think it was and and Rabin was there maybe it was Gaza was Gaza I think it was Gaza and then he he Rabin flew in a helicopter and he asked the pilots where they flying back to they said you should so he said can I get a ride back with you they said sure Now, Rabbid didn't know that he's sharing. He's getting a a hitch in the helicopter. And he he takes a seat in the helicopter. Rabid comes into the helicopter. He sees he saw cats over there. He's mad at Cats over. He won't look at him. But halfway through the flight, Rabin sticks out his hand to him and he says, "Look, let's forget about it. Let's bygon be be bygones. You did your job. I did my job. Let's make shalom." And they become friends again. And that leads to a whole another story with the with the and uh but but it just amazing stuff. The fact that he was mister he put his job on the line but Shabas comes first and he brought down the government for cover shabas. It really is incredible. And Israel despite being a journalist and I say despite because there's a perception especially a military war journalist of someone who maybe wouldn't mind provoking extremely responsible person. Um and you see that throughout the book how he's so well respected by people in all echelons of government and one of the people who's highlighted in the book uh who was held in very high esteem by Israel himself is Shiman Perez who he credits with a tremendous amount of that as far as the government leaving yeshivas alone talk about that for a moment and he talks about Shiman Paris's encounter with specifically right so he said that shim par is talk a lot about the fact that uh they had a connection with he went for a when he was little. He saw him and that made a tremendous impact on his life and he he he always remembered from the the brief encounter he had. It was something that he that made a tremendous impression on him and he always wanted to like to to watch over the the from and he really did. Bengorian said about Paris, if the people only knew how much they owed to shim in Paris, they would think very differently about him. But the shivas also really owed him a tremendous amount of of of gratitude and people they didn't really know that Paris had a bad reputation as a as a loser because he always lost elections and he only really came into himself as a president of Israel. But the that everyone you know tremendous admiration for him but the truth is he did tremendous again he made mistakes in his life. He had a very long career but but he did a lot for the from he did a tremendous amount and yes right this is actually um it's something that cats over says in the book that he heard from like who themselves were shim paris tremendously they obviously felt a tremendous amount of to him for being there and and like the book describes he attributes first of all his he talks about his za who and he he obviously attributes that warm feeling that he had toward the community to his encounter with which is just incredible to read. We know what his just one other point but is so far reaching that it makes a lot of sense that shim in Paris was mushba for the it makes a lot of sense that's interesting yeah absolutely and then he describes with great emotion and I when I say with great emotion it's your pen that does the description and as always you you take stories and you you create this image for the reader that's really incredible we feel like we're walking inel cats of her shoes as you go through describing when he first went to the kaisel after Israel regained possession of the holiest place to walk through that what was it like to listen to him describe that and to have to put that into words I'll tell you he wasn't the first person to tell me that I also spoke to Israel Galis about that Rabbi Gillis in Arman in Jerusalem and Rabbi also I wrote about their first visit to the kaiso so this is something which people of a certain age who were there. When they describe it, they describe walking through the narrow alleyways. Many people going al all of them not not knowing how to get there because they were never there. The excitement in the air is a sizzle. It's it's like everybody feels like they're like in a dream. They're walking through like on a cloud the first time to the Kisel just very very short time before liberated and and it was mamish like a dream for these people gman the same thing that's where it all started when he went to the after the six day war and he said tom I want to give a year of my life to be of it all started right after the six day war to when thousands of yidden just crushed through the doors of the the gates of of the old city and just went to the kisa. They had no idea to get there. But it's all all those people were all living through that monumental moment in Jewish history. You know this this book contains many stories that Israel who I should mention was a journalist for Hamodia for many many years under the name Aper. Many of the stories he never told before they appear in this book for the first time. Correct. And perhaps the most fascinating thing that I found in this book is his account of a conversation he had about the caum of the basikdash and whether they are or aren't to be found in the Vatican. tell our viewers about that because that's something that everyone who has grown up you know Jewish knows the rumor that the bas are in the Vatican and you saw cats over like us was curious about it. So tell tell our viewers a little about what he did or didn't find out about the cumin. Well I I don't want to give it away but I'll tell you that he actually had a meeting. He happened to be sitting next to someone who turned out to be a very high ranking official in the clergy and he ends up talking to this person and he says to him when he finds out that he's a bishop and he says let me ask you a question and the and the man already knows what he's going to ask him which is you know because anytime he met a Jew right away the question that every Jew wants to know is is the manro in the Vatican. So the man basically says to I know what you're going to ask. And the answer is no. And he basically goes through it, but he and I I want I don't want to give it away, but he explains why he doesn't believe it's there. And you could take it or leave it. You could say maybe he's just a good actor. Maybe. But he gives his reasoning, explains why he doesn't believe it's there. But um you know, I'm still left with some doubts myself. I'm not so sure. But uh you you never know. Now, another part of the book that we're going to leave somewhat of a cliffhanger for the readers, um, but which makes up a a tremendous portion of of Yel Katzver's personal life is the search for his brother, right? talk about the fact that they were separated during the younger years and uh and what the you know what the goal was in Israel searching for him and even engaging the services of investigative parties to find his brother right so Israel never met his brother cuz his brother was disappeared while they were still in Europe and Israel was only born after the war he was born in Austria And so for him, he never met his brother, but his whole life, he's walking around with a hole in his heart because he always wherever he goes, he's always thinking about his brother and he always wanted to find him. So right when the the the when when the iron curtain comes down, one of the first things he was able to get permission, he joined the party of Yidden going to Davin and Kadikim and he made his way to Azrian which was the village that his parents lived in and he went to find the house with the well and the cherry tree and to see who's living there now and he describes it. picturesque village and he really got again he went there the first time he did not have a lot he did not have a lot of time that first that first visit he was just getting his feet wet but he said to himself when he left I'll be back and he was back many times over the years and he brought his family members and he visited the other villages in the in the area and he got to know the area where there was a mass grave and he put up a memorial and he spent his whole life. Wherever he was, he was always thinking about his brother. Like you said, by the pyramids in Cairo, I'm thinking about my brother. I'm thinking about my brother on a plane to de Manhur. I'm thinking about my brother when I'm in the White House. I'm thinking about my brother when I'm in the Kremlin. He's always thinking about his brother and he's hoping that one day he's going to be reunited with his brother. And it it came very I don't want to again I don't want to give it away. You read the book, you you you you read about his search. The whole family was involved. They all were involved. His kids were involved. His grandchildren were involved. And there was a big big trip of the whole family that they all flew out to the Ukraine because they really thought they tracked down his brother. And uh you know, you'll read it and you'll see what happened. But but it's really it's been one of the pivotal moments of his life. His whole life has revolved in a sense about finding his brother. He never forgot him. Yeah. Right. One of the chilling parts of the book is reading uh his account of meeting the executioner of Aishman as a product of the war himself. He came out. This is something that he grew up with. And then to meet face to face with the person given the task of really carrying out something that uh that for some thought was controversial but for many who had lived through the horrors felt that this was the the final na you know what was that like? So first of all that was the very important thing really the trial until the AMA trial in Israel Holocaust survivors were unable to talk about what they went through. They looked at them the Israelis said we're the Sabras. You went like sheep to the slaughter. We're the new Israelis, the tough Israelis, the ones who fight and you're you're you just like a bunch of old Jews from Europe. And nobody could talk about the Holocaust. It was only when they caught a and they brought him to Israel and they put him on trial that finally it was like a a puss-filled wound that they released the pus and finally people were able to talk about what happened. So it was this like catharsis for the entire country. It was everyone. So now this Jew, they chose him because he he was an Ashkanazi. He did not go through the war and the Adafa chose a Yemenite who had no connection to the Holocaust to do the job. He was not from at the time and he he he said he he was a person who as a being able to do such a thing it's an amazing thing. The fact that they killed was huge. It was and they did it and at the same time you should know a little bit later from what I understand they were over they were tracking down Mangala and they had a choice to get Mangala or to get Yasum and they could only go for one or the other and in the end they went for Yasum and they let go of Mangala. So Akmed ended up being really the the major high-profile Nazi who was caught and put to death in Israel. And this year, this Yemenite year who had no shakist to the holocaust was the one who did it. And he's he's very feels very good about it, you know, and his life had all these stages. He went from being a non-religious person to today a person mama I don't know today where he's at, but back when the story when it would happen, he was a zi with a beard and pis and he looked like a fromid and he was a fromid. He became you know a person who learned to but it all started in that jail in Raml you know since the book came out I spoke to Israel quite a few times and I was taken by his kite by his ad kite he's just such a refined person and in the book itself you see it numerous numerous times specifically in regard to the Wanunu story which is you know you speak about a journalist what's a journalist greater dream than to be able to break a story and here was the story that he knew about and yet he didn't report it and then someone else did report it. Talk about that and you see how he really really held to tremendous personal and journalistic standards. So Hillary I mean you read the book you understand there's a certain type of of policy the army has with sharing um with sharing information. They tell the journalists a lot of information which they're not allowed to share but they share it with the journalist and then the journalists are given permission to share some information with the public. He is very careful. Now you have to also understand that you cancer doesn't have such a he didn't have such a ty for scoops because was never looking for scoops. It was never about that was is report the news, report what's going on and he didn't have to look for the scoops that let's say a journalist from oritz would be looking for. So didn't have to worry about that. He wasn't he wasn't looking for that. Wherever he went he wasn't looking for those kind of scoops and he did. But this other person did break the law this other journalist and he got into trouble for it. But he knew that Esau Kver could could come and give witness that he that he was right. And so he ends up asking if he saw Kiver for a favor. He saw Kver did the favor for him and he told me he saw K told me that this journalist he's a very anti-ari journalist very anti-religious who made comments to him that were very very not nice. But when it came down to him and he needed and he needed Israel Katzer is Katzer came through for him. He helped him. He cleared his name and he was he's a person this is just one example he's a person who I I met a lot of people I was with at a at a dinner party with you Katz over and some of the highest really tre high people in Israel's industries different mayors different people the the president of the bank of Israel when he opens his mouth to talk everyone listens he has this a commanding presence without trying to be commanding without a sense of authority He opens his mouth. He speaks. Everyone listens because what he says besides the fact that he sees he's he's tremendous. He the amount of information he knows. So let me ask you about that. I'm I'm I'm curious because in this book you Katz speaks to spies. He speaks to world leaders. He talks about uh nuclear Iran. There are so many different topics that he touches that some might think are really controversial. Is there a problem with someone like you Kats over speaking today about things that some people might say, you know, you're you're uh compromising on Israel's security or you're re revealing uh war secrets and things like that. Did you encounter that as the author of this book? Did you find that there were things that you uh either had to run by authorities in the government or you know anything of that sort? Of course, every he has to clear a a lot of the material that he told me was already cleared by the sensor. But for I'll give you an example. I I said to him, I want to take what in my opinion is Israel's best operation, which is the Iran the stealing of Iran's nuclear secrets, which I think is incredibly daring, audacious, and it was a tremendous success. And I wanted I told him I would like to write the operation more or less from beginning to end and he said I will and he wrote it up. He cleared it with the sensor. The sensor gave permission for everything we wrote and then we wrote the information. There are some things he explained this to me also at length. There are some things that let's say a journalist wants to write information which the sensor hasn't cleared. They can say this information was reported by the New York Times and then write it as long as they don't write it themselves. So there's many different ways but everything that is written in the book is was cleared for publication. There's nothing that's you know anyone's going to be upset about. But it is definitely what he called his kala privileged information and information which for example I'll give you an example which I love is the story of how he went to Turkey many times and there he met the the community of Jewish people or not they're not Jews but people and there's about 50 60,000 people in the Balkans Turkey and Greece that worship they still follow Shabaiti and he's their he's their rav he's their rashiva their rebi and they have shs and he met these people he was in their shs he met people who follow Shamsite he was he met the Raanim and this is something which you don't get to meet and you saw through his kisharim with different communities ends up really being part of of a society that exists but nobody is able to get into the society but you saw K does and wherever he goes yeah this book is is packed people must read it it's a must readad uh they will not be able to put it down it's packed with tremendous amount of history, intrigue, uh, and inspiration as well. I I think people are going to find everything in this book. So, thank you for the time that you put into this. Thank you for enriching us and, uh, hope to speak to you again soon. Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. [Music]