Inside ArtScroll Episode 11: Naftali Horowitz

[Music] Hello everyone and welcome back to inside art scroll where the books you read and the people who write them come to life. Today we are joined by Rabbi Naftali Harurowitz who serves as the managing director and the financial adviser with JP Morgan. I got to start right away. What in the world does that mean? What is a managing director and a financial adviser with JP Morgan do? So managing director is just a uh status of title um how successful you are within the company. um it's kind of like the highest level and it's bar hashem and uh I advise people on their wealth mostly um large financial institutions um organizations not for profofits and wealthy people. Now, we are here and we're going to get to it to discuss your brand new book titled You, a very fascinating book, and I want to get to some specifics in the volume. But first, give us a background on how someone like you who went through the traditional yeshiva system, and I'd like you to talk about that ended up working with JP Morgan. So, where did you grow up and what was your background during So, I grew up in Bar Park. I come from a rabbitic family. Um, I left yeshiva because I felt that my place was in the world and to be mashia on people in a different way. And when you say you left yeshiva, you're talking about post marriage. Post marriage, post kyo. Post. So as a as a bach where where did you learn? So as a bach I learned in stalin. Um, then I went from palar and then I learned and uh was that inima? That was inima. Correct. I'm just mentioning because he was my rebim as There you go. And then I was a few a few years a few years difference and then I was to learn by Salvang should have a complete refle which lo and behold is all you need to get into Wall Street as long as you're willing to do the work and read the books and study and and that's good to know for our viewers. Very good to know. I speak about this in my lectures all the time. People think that, you know, you don't have an Ivy League uh college degree, you can't go places. It's not true. We say if you can figure out then a uh corporate uh a corporate earnings report is a piece of cake. Did you did you receive uh some kind of what we would call an English general studies secular education over the years that you felt helped you later on or was it something that was more innate that you had that ability to write and to speak and to comprehend whatever it is that you were exposed to post ky? Um so no the answer is I went through through traditional yeshivas. Um I read books. I read a lot of books. Um to do what I do you need to know a lot. So I do I do not waste time reading as we say narish kite. I read textbooks. Um and I think as a child I always was fascinated with the English language. Like if I had to had a rebby in English it would be rabbit barrel wine. Not only was I fascinated by history, but I used to write down all the hard words that he would say in all of his history lectures and his books, and I would look them up in the dictionary, and then I would try to incorporate them into my language as I was speaking. And I I think that's how I picked up the English language. And you've seen it pay off for you. Absolutely. I mean, people do judge you by your vocabulary, especially in my world. you're you are working with sophisticated Ivy League college grads. So you can't have that yeshiva shish so to speak falling out of your mouth. And as they say you never get a second chance to make a first impression. That's correct. So that's correct. The way you speak and the way you present yourself is the way they're going to view you. Yeah. Absolutely. Now growing up, what did your parents do? My father was a diamond cutter. Uh my father worked very very hard. um struggle terribly to make a living which is part of the reason I wrote this book and part of what I why I do what I do. Watching my father struggle and watching the worries of the house of you know not having enough was was a very big influence on my upbringing and a big part of you know who I am. And when you when you made that choice to leave Kyle and to take a vocation how did you choose what you did? So my first my first job was working actually in in in the printing world. I worked for my um and I was pushed into that job by necessity. My father needed somebody to do sales and sales was what type what type of business is that? Um printing printing and graphics. Yes. Yes. And what was your role there? So I became a salesperson. I became the salesperson. And where did you did you kind of gravitate naturally to sales? Was it not at all? It was the last thing in the world I wanted to do. But it turns out it's what Muran wanted me to do. And um I'm kind of tenacious in that way that even though I did not have the natural inkling for it, I pushed myself and I I just didn't give up and I kept at it until I became really good at it. So you become good at sales, you feel comfortable in your own skin, which I think is very important part of it. Correct. And what was the next step? So I sort of realized after a couple years I wasn't going to stay in the printing business. it just didn't offer enough of a an intellectual challenge for me and I kept avening for the bisham to open up something for me. That something opened up when I was uh picked up by a financial firm, corporate finance, which is not what I do today. Um I went, you applied for the job. Did someone seek you out? Somebody sought me out. Somebody who took notice of me sought me out and um I I was thrust into the world of finance. So I spent about five years in corporate finance in enjoying which means in layman's terms what working for with public companies. Okay. Very different of what I do there. I I was doing all kinds of structuring of their stock issuances and their plans and things like that. Um what that was no former for formal college degree in that field. Not at all. No. So you're kind of learning on the fly. Learning on the fly. And there what that job did for me is it really pushed me to up the ante on my communication skills, presentation skills because I was meeting with chief of financial officers, corporate secretaries of large public companies. I mean I had some really large companies that were my clients, big Fortune 500. So there I was a yeshiva bucker and sitting with the board of Coca-Cola. You have a laugh to yourself and say this is this is funny. It's funny until you realize that everything is funny because their varnish alone can make anything happen. Exactly. And I write about that in the book all the time that it a person's a person can do anything if they believe in themselves as as a conduit and a vehicle for the to expresses and success in the world. So I'm a living example of that because everything about my life is and certainly where I am in my career. Right. So I spent um five years doing that. It was it was difficult because I was on a plane a lot. I was flying all over the country, meeting with companies in San Diego and Wyoming and places that you would you would never go to in a million years. Certainly no kosher food. I was once snowed in to Boise, Idaho before there was a kabad house there. And I I had to I had to exist on apples and oranges and I found some kosher pretzels for 3 days until the airport opened up again. Mhm. But I I started davening again said I don't think this is it. I I need something else. I need something else. Um and then again I was sought out by my former firm um to become a financial adviser to wealthy people, something I had absolutely no knowledge of. um and they invested in me and they trained me and uh Barashem and from there I went to JP Morgan. Now any particular memories from those early years maybe a gaff of yours or something humorous any any particular story that stands out? There's a lot of them. Um there were there were many defining moments in my early in the early part of my career which I I I speak about a lot in my lectures. um things that taught me to take a completely different track than perhaps the other people that I was competing against were doing. Um I remember one of my largest client using the word I'm disappointed and I remember how that felt and I remember sort of like saying to myself, my number one goal is never to disappoint anybody. So they were saying to you they were disappointed in correct performance. I delivered I delivered a a a a printed um piece and the client looked at it and they were disappointed and that hurt and I think that that propelled me to work extra hard never to have a client say I'm disappointed and that's true in my business today especially that was a that was a very big defining moment. Another defining moment I remember was meeting with a very large public company and I was pitching their business and uh the CFO looked at his watch and he says, "Mr. Harowitz, you've been here 15 minutes and all you've talked about is your competition. I have another five minutes for you. Would you like to tell me anything about your company?" And it was so impactful. Needless to say, I did not win that piece of business. But it was one of the most defining moments of my career where I said, "Wow, you can't talk about the competition. You can only talk about what you're offering." And this is what says all the time carries into the workplace just like it does everywhere else. Where do we have a right to put down our competition? So these were very very important defining moments for me. um where I I'd say that after that I did everything differently. Um so um there's so many I mean perhaps if I write another book talk about your autobiography I'll talk about all that right now as a visibly orthodox Jew of Bentyra did you find did you hit roadblocks on the way to where you are today? So it's funny I write about that in my book as well. Um, of course I did, but I didn't notice them because I just wasn't gish them, as we say. Um, I always believe that first of all, you if you know what you do and you do it well and you make a good impression, most people will look past a beard um, a yamaka. And if they don't, so be it. It wasn't Basher. So, I don't really make a big deal about it. I could tell you an interesting story that um I once went to a I went to a meeting in Onida, New York. There's a famous um silverware company called Onida, right? So Onida is a public company. They're located in Onida, New York. You you would never know where New York is. You fly to Rochester and they just get in a car and you drive and drive and drive. And the person that I went with was somebody from my company who was not that from but from enough that he shouldn't have done what he did. And as we walked into the meeting, he asked me to take off my yamaka. And I never take off my yamaka for a meeting. I never did. And I said, "Absolutely not. I will not take off my yamaka." And as we walked into the meeting, he grabbed the yamaka off my head and put it into his pocket. And it was most disturbing thing that has happened to me in my career, I would have to say. The woman walks in, I still remember her name. And she was wearing a cross at Salem that was literally this big. So she sat down across from us. Here we are, two from Jews without wearing a yamaka. And here's a Catholic woman portraying proudly her religion. And I walked out of that meeting and I asked the person back for my yarmaka and I refused to ever do a meeting with this person again. But the point was that we yeden when we act the way we should, we're ethical, we're honest, we're we we we speak the truth and we know what we're talking about and we make an impression. We should be wearing two yamas, not one. Right? Taking off our yamakas never never occurred to me. I could never do it. It's not possible. And I can't believe that that's what the Bunnes would want for me to be successful. So I proudly walk the hallways of JP Morgan. There aren't that many managing directors in the entire firm, but we have once a year a get together. And I'm proud that I believe I'm the only Yarmaka in the room. Um, and I I I I'm I'm proud of it. I think that's why I'm in the workplace. And I was going to ask you if you're ever in uncomfortable positions because of it, but you're saying you're not even noticing it. You're so past it. I'm not even noticing it. I don't think about it. And I write about this in my book. The more the more self self-conscious you are, the more you're going to project that and then the person's going to pick it up. If you're proud of who you are and you're you you have no embarrassment or anything to to be sorry for, the person will look past it. Right. You believe in the innate goodness of people that most people are right. That's I absolutely believe in that. I absolutely believe in that. And I think that a lot of what people claim is anti-semitism is just their their demus or their excuse for why things aren't working out. Um I I I just don't think it's it's been an issue for me. But I think that's that's very inspiring not only for those in the corporate world but anyone in in any interaction with those outside of the Orthodox Jewish community in general and um you know those who do work with those outside of our faith that it's all about how you carry yourself and how you project yourself and in most situations listen there always some you know sour apples but in most situations you'll get that back back coming right back to you. I I give credit to this in my father's my father did not judge people in in in in that way. Um I remember coming off of M yeshiva once and repeating something my somebody had said one of my friends you know all go are bad all go are robbers or something silly that a child would say and my father sat me down and he says is that true I said yes I think it's true. So my father started saying, "How about Peter the gardener? Is he a robber? Is he bad?" "No." I said, "Peter the gardener? He's very good." Because I knew Peter the gardener. "How about Sam the mailman?" And I said, "Oh, no. I like Sam. Sam's a great guy. What about Muriel takes care of Zadei the nurse?" And my father showed me how ridiculous that was to just stereotype and and and make a blanket statement like that. And these things my father my father left an impression on me. My father was my father was a person who saw the innate good in every human being. And not just human beings, cats and dogs and bugs. My father wouldn't let us kill a a cockroach. If we can catch it and let it outside, he would he would require that that's what we did. He he said it's it's it's a living thing. So these are these are things that that you know were instilled in me. So it definitely starts with the messages we give our children. I could hear it in your voice just the way you're speaking um about the messages that your father gave you. It obviously stayed with you and you carried that now into the corporate world and really putting those messages from your youth into action now. Um today you work as a financial adviser. You're managing millions of dollars for very wealthy people, right? Do you have trouble sleeping at night? I used to. Um I used to. 2008 was the hardest period for me. Um where I watched hundreds of millions of dollars evaporate in weeks. I felt a tremendous aas, right? Um I was carrying a huge burden. I wasn't sleeping and took a big toll on me. There's no question about it. But I realized that this was just requiring me to go back and double down and triple down on my and truly reframe what my role was for my clients. Um, as as my one of my said to me, he says, "Nobody hires you because they think you're a Na'vi. So none of us know the future. Nobody knows what's going to happen tomorrow. So, over the years, I've gotten much better at it, but there's no question that it's a double-edged sword. The more serious you take this job, the better you are at it, but the bigger the burden you carry. And I manage hundreds of millions of dollars that are is sedaka money. That is mgdish um for very large institutions. And that's invested money, money that they money that they invest and they're counting on a on a return in order to make a counting on a return. Projects are are are built based on these returns. And um it's a it's a huge there's no question about it. I I it keeps me diving very very hard. It's it's a huge balance to take your job as seriously as humanly possible without taking that home with you into your personal life. Correct. Absolutely. A lot of a lot of muscle learning, a lot of uh lot of self introspection. A lot of muscle learning, a lot of self- introspection, which is how I was able to write a book. Right. Now, do you have a relationship directly with these clients or Yeah, you do. You build personal relationships with them. Because they're trusting you. Absolutely. With their hard-earned dollars. The relationships are beyond the dollars. These are many of them are Jewish. They're mostly not from, but I've unfortunately been at the bedside of several clients. Really? That's how close you are to them. As they breathe their last, I said voy with several. I've eulogized many. Um I've taught some clients children how to lane. Um I've I've you know I've really I mean this is I' I've been at the bedside of clients. Yeah. I've I've gotten doctors. have gotten, you know, help to people when they were sick. It's a you be they most of my clients have become like family to me. You become like family. It sounds like there's a kira component to it that comes by default. No question. And you're also becoming their therapist on some level. Well, this job isif my job is 50% therapy. Mhm. Um and and and it's unbelievable how I remember in 2008, it wasn't just Jews in my office that were coming because people had the literally the rug pulled out from under them. The whole financial system was cratering and crumbling and people had built this whole demion of security and you know financial security on on nothing, right? And all of a sudden one day it was all crumbling. And it doesn't just affect it affects everybody. And people were coming to my office because they needed a clergyman. They didn't need financial advice. These were these were colleagues of mine, Jewish and non-Jewish. I remember I taught a class at my former firm. I taught Rab Khan's um mimer on the Great Depression. It's an unbelievable mimer. um the Jewish observer did a great job of of um translating it into English and I gave out copies and I showed them the wisdom of Tyra, how it explained the Great Depression, which was literally 2008 was a mirror of it, what was going on with the financial crisis with money movement and velocity of money and everything that he explains over there about a and putting in money versus the and when I finished the lecture I was blown away. The room was full. There were at least 10 non-Jews who came to that lecture and they were just they couldn't get over it. The wisdom of Tyra, how it explained they what I taught them was that they have to reorient themselves with what they rely upon, which was it can't be just about your 401k, your bank account, or your pension plan. So, you've taken the wealth of experience that you have and you've I guess condensed it into a book. So tell us about the process of putting together the book. Why write a book and how long it took you? What was involved? So why write a book is a question I asked myself as I was writing the book. Why am I doing this? Like most authors, why am I doing this? Um it's interesting the the idea to write the book um came from from a very good friend of mine who's a noted author, Napali Wberger. He came up to me after a lecture in Lakewood a couple years ago and he said, "Um, who's publishing your book?" I said, "I don't have a book." He goes, "Oh, no, you're going to have a book." And he just kept at it. He kept emailing me and driving me crazy. You must write a book. You must write a book. One day he dragged me down to Art Scroll and I met with Gadalia and Ron Beerman and they said, "You must write a book." Um, it took an it took an enormous amount of time to write the actual book and it was time I didn't have. So, but I thought about it and I said, "Look, people come to my office all the time. People come to my home for advice, personal advice, career advice, which ultimately becomes marriage advice, and life advice." And they've always said to me, "What can I learn? Where where can I go? I I need to I need to develop tools. So I would you know I'd give them parts of and learn this in and learn this here and learn this here and I I came to realize that really what I would love to do is just say here read this but that thing to me didn't exist. I had to compile my knowledge from so many different places um like a manual almost a manual. So would you would you call this a Dale Carnegie book? Would it be a self-help book? If if you if if there's a genre, is there a genre or is or did you just create? I mean, I think it's contemporary muser. It's it's it's it's yes, it's a self-help book. One of the reasons what that one of the reasons that I wrote this book was that people were going to Dale Carnegie. These people were going for weekends to Dale Carnegie and spending Shabas in a hotel to hear a guy teach them how to live their lives, how to develop motivation, resilience, tenacity and things. Um, you know, finding a life's mission was not meant to be learned from somebody like Dale Carnegie. We have it. This is our Messiah. So, you know, and I I just realized that we I need something that I can give people. Um, and and as much time as it took to wrote the book, I realized how much time it's going to save me in having to teach all of this to so many different people one-on-one and even in lectures because how much can you get in a lecture an hour? You just can't get that much out. So, you know, I decided this book has to be written. Um, it wasn't really hard to write the book. I never wrote a book before. The information was in me to a very large extent. The difficult part about writing the book was organizing it in a in a fashion where I really began at the beginning and built my way up. Um, as I told my editor, I wrote 17 chapter ones. Mhm. Because the first chapter I wrote, I thought was chapter one and then I wrote it, I realized it's not chapter one. And I wrote a chapter before that and then a chapter before that. So, I really started threequarters of the way into the book and then worked my way back. Um and I hope that the reader will find the natural building progression of the growth of self from the beginning throughout the book. Um that was the that was the challenging part. The second really challenging part was finding the right editor. Um it took about a year. So the the the book writing itself was about six to eight months. I rewrote it several times. I'm a little bit of a perfectionist as I say in my book. And you said you didn't have the time to do it. So when did you do it? I I did it all kinds of crazy hours. Um I did it at night. I did it early in the morning. Um I I just I did it whenever I had time and I I would scribble stuff down and and then just go back and write the book. And Matz Chabas was a big time for me. I'd spend lock myself six, seven hours in my office until the wee hours of the morning just writing and writing and writing and writing. And then the summer when the market tends to be quieter and clients aren't as active, I did a lot of writing in the summer. Um, so hashem and I went through several editors till I found the right one. Now you talk about starting at the beginning. What would you say is the beginning? What is the building block, the basis for everything else that you bring later in the book? So the beginning interesting the beginning which I thought was the beginning was what do we what is the definition of success? The the cover says that it's a Torah path to a life of success. So what is success? It's always good to know what you're trying to achieve. It's interesting that people don't really have a definition of success. And for some people it's a lot of money. But then they make a lot of money and they realize they're not happy. They don't feel successful. So where did I go wrong? The answer is if you don't know what you're trying to achieve, it's very difficult to achieve it. Um, so that is the the beginning of the book, but it's not really the beginning of the book because there had to be a beginning before that. The beginning before that is to uproot the mindset of I can't be successful. So my early chapter is basically taking headon those things that people may use as excuses to rootsim as to why whatever is going to follow in this book does not apply to me. That's the sitra that's the satin that's that's the the voice inside that's telling you this book may be for other people but it isn't for you. And you actually I'm sorry. You have that format in the book at the beginning where you say the Sutton says Yeah. I literally take the response is I take every terret I've ever heard from myself and for other people and I just tackle it head on because if you can't uproot that up up front, you may not get to read the chapter 2 or they may read chapter two but they still have that voice of doubt inside of them. Wouldn't you say that the summary of it all really at the end of the day boils down to the very very core principles of Muser such as that's really what it is. Why are we here? Uh what does Hashem want us to do? It comes out to the very very foundation of our faith. Correct. And that will ultimately guide everything else. Is that too elementary or is that really it? It's it's a beginning. It's a it's a good beginning, but there's a lot more than that. Um, this book goes into things like will. What is will? Where does it come from? I get it. I know why I'm here. But I have no desire. I have no will. I have no motivation. I have no confidence to carry it through as an example. So yes, the the the the foundation is why are you here? It's funny. I was talking to a a very person yesterday and and he said to me, he says that is a question that he's not sure he can answer. and and and and again, as I as I mentioned in my book, every corporation has a mission statement. They know why they're in business. JP Morgan knows why they're in business. Some people, they go to work every day. They have children. They marry them off. They do all the things that they do, but they don't really know why they're here and what their what what their mission is. So, having a clear mission in life gives you so many advantages such as should I do this or should I do that? Well, that doesn't speak to your mission. that is that why you're here right when I when when when I see people who are just floundering generally they can't answer that question why are you here what are you meant to achieve so the beginning of the book lays that foundation but there's it's there's a lot more that comes beyond that but aren't would you say that these are fundamental principles that really should be inculcated in children and then adolescence so that they don't have to find out at age 45 55 or 65 that they've been living a life void of reason and void of purpose and void of a goal. Absolutely. That's why this is Judy Dick said the next book I write has to be for teens. Mhm. Yes. Um you even muster I who who learned muser in yeshiva. It was 20 minutes before dinner and it was to say that you just wanted to get out of. And I remember until I went into business and I started dealing with the anxieties and the stresses of earning a living and and everything else that comes with it, raising a family that I found myself running back to the shank and taking out and reading it over and over and over and realizing that I had put my best friend away in the shelf for 15 years or 10 years, whatever it was, and never opened it. And and and now I realize how much I needed. And then you know you expanded beyond that to to all the that we have really teach you how to live successful lives. The challenge is that not everybody's able to pull all that information or more importantly they don't know how to take muser and make it applied muser to bring it into their everyday life. And this is what I'm trying to do in the book. I'm trying to show the reader that on your swarmshak are the best self-help books you could ever imagine. I think also adolescents are not at the stage of life yet to appreciate why it's so vital. It's more about getting through the days and the years. They're not facing lifealtering challenges. Hopefully not exactly. It's only later on when a person is at a crossroads. They're dealing with marriage parasa health and things like that that they really start opening their eyes and saying, you know, I really need direction. Correct. And many people unfortunately not to anyone's fault but they may not have a rebi or a mashk or a mentor of some sort to guide them and give them the tools that you're providing here. Exactly. Now in the book you use the term selfactualization right which jumped out at me. What does that mean and and and how do we apply it? Self-actualization means when a person expresses fully their gave us all talents. The Basham gave us a mission. Self-actualization means bringing that leaving this world knowing that you were the best version of you that you could be. And and you know this is this is the dormant you that's inside. The book is called you with capital letters because there's a U with small letters and then there's a U. So the nishama comes to this world. It knows it has a mission. it even knows what that mission is. The the goof has no idea and the communication channels between the goof and the shama are not the best ones, right? And the gof makes a lot of noise and the nishama is very quiet. When a person expresses the true self, whether it's in an act of saddaka, whether it's teaching another person something, whether it's a goness, whatever it is, there's this euphoric feeling that comes forth. They know that they just were who they really are. And that is self-actualization. It's a feeling of deep meaningfulness and fulfillment. And the more experiences we can have of this, the more we know that we're on the right track to what I would call self-actualization. A lot of what you just said and what's included in the book is related to psychology. It's a lot of psychology. Would you say that the book is solely based on Torah sources and how to apply the modern contemporary principles of psychology? Is that it was is that what it is or did you take from Nash from different professionals? How would you apply it as far as the sourcing of the content of the book? So it's a very good question. And when I I gave the book to Ra four years old and he read the whole book he was he had just had surgery and he gave me an ask on it. He called me up. He says I have one tit on you. I said what? He says you don't quote any psych psychology books any psychology sources. I said I never read a psychology book. So the answer is no. I've never read a psychology book. Um I I don't think there's a reason to to read a psychology book. I think the is the best psychology book ever written. I don't I mean to to read things from a karim and and to to try to again come up with an orientation of self using a a secular source I is running your engine on on the wrong fuel. So the answer is every single thing in that book is tyrourced 100%. I I had go through this book page by page to get to get an asama. It took months to get asamas because this is a a book that people could be afraid of where this is coming from, right? And but the book speaks for itself. Every single thing is sourced in Tyra. It's all there. It's all there. It's mish unbelievable. And and it's authentic. It's not this this artificial things that somebody's going to read in a book written by a napicus, right? What's interesting is that you're dealing with very weighty topics. But as I was going through the book, it's very it's very light. Very light. Very non-threatening. Correct. And you break it down into very understandable questions that we all have. Correct. These are issues that we all have thought about. Correct. Some we have answers to, some not. Correct. And um That's why I think the format of the book is is fantastic. Now, would you say that someone in their teens could read it and comprehend it? And would you say that the book is for men, women of all ages? I I don't know how many teens will comprehend some of it because you you pointed out very correctly before. I deal with problems or challenges which come later in life. Um the same exact ideas could be rewritten to deal with teen challenges, self-esteem, um self-orientation, who am I? Um the whole trying to fit in mindset, um the feelings of inferiority and so on and so forth that that plague children in school. Um I'm not academically up to par. I don't have as many friends as somebody else. So I think that the mashalm and the the kinds of language would have to be changed for a teenager typical teenager to appreciate it. But the ideas it's tyra so it's it's it's applicable to all ages. Um the book is light. Um I am vets. That's the way I lecture. I you know you have to you have to you have to teach people at that level and the gave me the I cannot take something somewhat complex and try to explain. Some of those chapters had to be written four or five times especially the chapter on will which is a very was a very very deep complicated cabalistic chapter. But I rewrote it seven or eight times until it came to the point where I could show it to an editor and she says, "Yeah, you understood every word of it." So now you talk about lecturing. What what types of groups do you get to lecture on a regular basis? And what is the topic of the lecture usually? Is it businessoriented or is it more of this type of life guidance co life coaching? You could call it life skills. So it it's interesting. Um my most of my lectures are a front. they're a front for come learn how to earn more money which is why people come success um sales confidence and then people walk out and they say I learned more tyra in that but they realize that there's a perfect marriage between the two so I lecture baram around the world um this is my mitzvah I don't charge for my lectures maybe the organizations charge but um I've lectured to tens of thousands of people baram over the last five to six years or more. Um, a lot of communities ask me to come Bells, Satma, Cloenberg, Skare and others. Um, it's to build people up. It's to give them hope. It's to teach them tools so that they could be successful people. Whether it's successful people in business or whether a successful person in your community, a successful person is built a certain way and the tools that we need to teach them to be successful is going to essentially work across their life. So I I I think a lot of it is that just I could show them look look at me nothing special. I I didn't go to college. I didn't have any magical upbringing. I had a beautiful upbringing but um you know an income from money an income from anything anybody every person can make something of themselves and every person was put here to make something of themselves. So I think you know some of that is just I'm willing to share my foibless and my mistakes and my mishagasan and the fears and inhibitions that I had and every shortcoming that I have literally was had had to be dealt with before it went into that book. Um, so it gives people hope. Like the goal is if if he could do it, why why can't I do it? What is a memorable mistake or egregious error that you made that maybe taught you something about yourself and about bouncing back? Well, I think the the mistakes that I had early on are the same mistakes a lot of people have. I spent too much time worrying about what other people thought, about what other people thought of me, what kind of impression was I making, was I fitting in. These are childish mindsets that can occupy ka jealousy tya and cover. Those are three things that put a person into a detrimental mindset and and and you can spend your whole life in those mindsets worrying about this. Does this person think your car is nice enough? Does this people person think you're smart enough? Does this people does this person have more than you? Less than you. And you spend your whole life occupied on the externalities of your life versus what's internal. And this is this is I suffered from this terribly as a child. I wanted to be I wanted to fit in. I wanted to be popular. I wanted this. I wanted that. One day I realized what for where is this all going to get me? And and and so these are these are things that I remember as a child having moments where I stopped and realized that none of this really matters at the end of the day. And when I entered sales, the biggest detriment to sales is fear of rejection. Someone's going to say no to you. I had to mentally get over that. Who cares? What difference does it make if they say no to you? Doesn't mean anything. It doesn't translate to anything about you. So it it it it our biggest obstacle in life is in here. It's how we think. It's how we feel. If we could change that, then everything about our lives change. It's amazing listening to you because there's an interesting dichotomy here. Your occupation at JP Morgan is focused on making people more money. Correct. Whereas your primary message which and that is the we're talking about externals. Correct. And your whole message is that what really matters is the panemius is the internal. Correct? You ever think to yourself, you know what? I'm I'm I'm on one side I'm being pulled in the JP Morgan direction. On the other side, the truth is the diametric opposite, right? So, you kind of have a unique uh balance here. So, it's interesting. So, I don't think it's a steer at all. In fact, I speak to my clients this way all the time. client calls me up and says um he heard about this and this investment and he's thinking of doing it and I said but you realize how risky it is and he says yes it's very risky and I said but let me ask you a question if you're wrong how much pain will you experience at the loss versus if you're right will this change your life even an iota does it really matter at this point how much money you have and I speak to clients like that all the time I try to reorient them for the purpose of money and in my book I I have some examples of unfortunately people who didn't get it and who just kept amassing and amassing and amassing money in the words of Schwab the reason why in mas shavas we say right asks how do you take something as holy and as as eternal as children and put it together with money the terret says we're talking about money that's put to good uses listen money built art scroll money put out the the shot and steam talmud. Money builds yeshivas. Money has incredibly intrinsic power when it's directed in the right direction. So I I I see money creation when it's done for the right purpose as a hashem. And I try to teach my clients to think that way to say at some point it's purposeless to create more wealth unless you can find the purpose for it. And I have these conversations with my clients. These are existential conversations to try to get them to give more sedaka and to do the right thing while they're still alive. And sometimes I'm successful and unfortunately sometimes I'm not. You are in a very unique uh position there where you could literally guide people toward eternity or to nebuck wasting their lives. Exactly. And leaving their money to uh some useless uh foundation or something of that sort which is really it it goes even beyond that. It's that money destroys generations. When it's not dealt with, when children grow up spoiled and unbridled and they know there's endless amounts of money coming their way one day, where's the motivation for that child to make anything of themselves? And I encourage my clients to educate their children, to withhold from their children. When I had a client who called me up from a Porsche dealership and he tells me he's buying his son a a Porsche because his son is graduating college. I said, "What's left if you buy him the Porsche now? We you you've basically taken every motivation away from this child. You're giving him the ultimate prize in his world for whack for graduating college. I it it's you can see how money could destroy or money could build. I try try. Now, you've been involved besides for advising wealthy people, money management for regular people. Correct. Now, this is something that I've kind of I don't want to call it a pet peeve, but I've thought about it a lot. Missile helps people spend the money they have. Correct? But what if the amount of money you have is simply not enough? There's only so many ways you could cut a meager salary. Now, that leads me to a question that I would love to present to you. In the firm world today to support a family you need a lot of money. I don't even want to throw out a number because everyone is different and people live on different levels. But what worked for someone in the '9s and what would someone be if someone would be considered wealthy if they made $100,000 in the 90s today they're not making it. Correct. Housing, tuition, weddings, postmarital support, insurance. We could go down the whole list. Yeah, some people would say that the financial system in the from world is broken. I've heard stories myself, families upon families that on the outside, they put up a good facade, they seem to be doing okay, maybe they make it through their child's school years and then it comes to marriage and everything falls apart, weddings and things of that sort. What a do you have to the average bread winner who's just trying their hardest? They might have even gone to college. They might even have a degree and it still won't make a difference because they're not earning enough money to support themselves as from people. What do we tell those people? So your pet peeve is my pet peeve. Um it's a lot it's it's it's a lot of what I lecture about and it's a very big motivator and why I go out there and speak to people. I created what's called the income enhancement program. Um and I put together a series of articles and seminars to teach people how to earn more money. So the income enhancement seminar was very successful. It it was it was being worked on in Lakewood for a while but I think the whole econom is not what it used to be. Um so I agree with you there are people who are living um at their means and they just don't have enough. So, Msila is tackling those that are living above their means, which is unfortunately a larger percentage of the population than we think. This goes back to what I was saying before about people living lives for other people. Um, so the the the Msila program is meant to bring awareness to where perhaps we're living above your your means. So I think that's the first thing a person has to know um what their mean what they can afford and live at their means. Once they know what that is and now they have a shortfall at least they know what that shortfall is. Let me explain why that's important. There are people who spend because they figure what difference does it make anyway? I don't have enough. So what's another $50? What's another $100? What's another $200? What's another car lease? What difference does it make if I'll buy new shoes? I won't buy new shoes. The whole house is built on cards anyway. And when a person lives that way, there's no motivation. But suppose I showed a person that you're only 300,400, $600 a month from away from where you are. Now, I say to this person, you can go back and you could start re revisiting all of your expenses and let's see if we can close that gap. Now they have a a concrete tangible number that they're working towards that is a motivation for them. Otherwise it's who cares. So that's step number one. Income enhancement comes down to what's written in this book selfenhancement. So many times people are under earning because they're under living because they're underachieving because they're underappreciating who they are and what their kas are. They're they're falling victim to the voice of I can't. Someone else could. That's not me. Someone could be successful at this. Someone could get that raise. Someone could work their way up in the company. Somebody could take on a second profession. Somebody can change professions completely. But what? Look at me already. I'm I'm I'm 32. I'm 41. It doesn't matter what age it is. And and that is what this book was meant to uproot. And it's not just about money. It's about diving for it's about talking at a it's about starting a organization. It's about all those latent talents and that we have inside of us that we've just forgotten and saying it's not me. It's not me. I am what you see. Right? So so many times people come up to me in the streets in in in shul and they say I came to your seminar three years ago. I quit my job because I realized I was literally at a dead end. I took that leap. A guy came over to me in pomegranate once and he showed me the whole line of of of of herrings that and and salads in pomegranate and he supplies and he said he built a beautiful business because he changed his mindset about what was possible for his life. He left his job, his salary job that he was that he was starving from and he went and he launched this business and he told me he's being wildly successful. I I can't tell you how many stories I have had and how many experience of people who started businesses because they change that mindset. So I try in in my seminars to teach people. Do you believe do you believe that every single person could be mats whatever is defined as do you think every person could be mats especially when we're talking about materially yes financially aren't there always the idiots the bonist aren't there always the society it's in my book I tell everybody the same thing there will always be the says this other the other mus say are always going to be givers and takers. Amun means I will not be from the takers. Those that step up the says the word amuna comes from those that step up and say I believe that I can be from the givers. Why should somebody else be able to give and not me? Those people ultimately will become givers. They will not be takers. Will they be takers? Yes. But let it not be you. Mhm. Let it not be you. Person has to have that meant for them to support their family and to live their lives successfully. Now people say that money can't solve all problems. But other people say but money can solve many problems. And that going back to our sheer pet peeve, what I' I've heard from a therapist who said that most of the cases that come to him on some level involve finances and every problem virtually every problem or challenge I don't want to quote a problem called a challenge kids at riskim maybe not health but a lot of other things ultimately are exacerbated when there's a lack of finances. If someone has a kid at risk and they don't have the money, correct to give the child the reinforcements that they need, things of that sort and within marriages also when someone is financially tied, it creates a tremendous stress on the marriage and people suffer from it. And I always wondered why is there not more of a focus on helping people where you call income enhancement. If I ever see a convention and I look at the panels and I don't see one on parasa, I scratch my head. This is a an a very fundamental issue that has to be constantly addressed. Now, I once brought this up to a an Oscin and uh he said to me, Yity, what do you you want us to give out money? You know, what do you want us to do? Right? So obviously giving out money is not the ETA but there has to be creative ideas whether it's tuition relief, housing relief and there are tremendous organizations doing that. But I always wonder why there isn't more being done. Now I have a theory that the movers and shakers, the people who have the power of influence are usually of the upper echelon of society, which by definition means that finances are not a challenge that they deal with. Whereas other challenges such as health, they're they don't discriminate. Doesn't matter what echelon you're on, that's the way made the world. It will affect anyone. Whereas finances by its very definition, those in positions of power and influence usually don't have that challenge. Maybe they're not understanding just how much the majority of colle is struggling financially. What what do you say about that? So you're you're talking a very very big um big macro problems that we have. But the first thing I would say is that I've seen just as many children at risk risk that are there because of too much money as lack of money. There's no question that lack of money creates issues with regard to getting the child help. Um the first thing I would say is is that um the a the tone of a house is more important than how much money there is. There are children who grow up with very little and they don't feel lacking. There are children that grow up with enough and feel lacking. And it really it's incumbent on parents to make children feel safe and keep and this is the most difficult part of being a parent in today's generation is keeping the stresses inside or behind the closed door between you and your wife. When the children see, you know, the words that I once heard, you know, as as used to say, then they become at risk. And when they see that tuition and kosher food and yontiff becomes a burden and a stress, um it it it why should they? Why should they? And I know this is a difficult difficult challenge for people to to to make ends meet and but not let that be the primary focus of the house is we can't make ends meet. Um on the other hand people that have money and they can give and give and give they have to realize that this is a tremendous it's it's it's an you're spoiling your child. You're you're you're you're putting the emphasis on the wrong things. And then those children grow up without purpose and without meaning and they're also at risk. So I think that's the first thing that I would say that this is a this is a huge thing as far as why not more is being done about it is that it's not so simple. Like I said, how do you take a person who's in a dead-end job who's afraid to make a career change, right? and doesn't believe in themselves as a as I spoke I spoke at a seminar a few years ago and I said that you know you have to look at your job as a as a ladder and and sometimes you have to get off that ladder. You went up seven rungs and you're not going any further and at some point they're going to throw you off the ladder because you're going to get too old and you're going to be earning too much and somebody younger is going to come in and they're going to give them your job. They'll do they'll do you a favor. They'll give you three or four months to train the person in. And I always say, get off that ladder before someone pushes you off that ladder and get on a new ladder and a ladder that's taller and that has more potential. That's very, very scary. It's it's really scary. And the problem is if you don't get used to accustomed to doing this when you're younger and you wake up when you're 45 or 50 and you want to make that first career change at that age, it's very, very difficult. It's not impossible, but it's difficult. So I encourage the younger people to take more risks, calculated risks. You know, you speak it over with a goggle. You do your research, but start a business, go into the sales profession, which has much more potential than a salary job. I encourage a lot of people to go into sales for that reason. And and that's that that put a sales sales could be scary because it's commission based, right? That's right. And uh some people but there's no but there's no ceiling. I must have put thousands of people into the sales profession who would have never thought otherwise. So are you saying that it has to do more with determination and breaking out of the box than acquiring the requisite skills? Where does skill play where do skills because I didn't me I didn't hear from you at all say anything about education or skills or reading up on who knows what brought it in your knowledge. That's a milsittita as we say. First you have to believe you could do it and you have to want to do it and then you say how how do I do it? When I went into finance I didn't just walk in and say I'm here. I devoured books. I still devour books. I don't read narish kite. I don't have time for narish kite. I read taclas. So I I speak about that all the time. You have to develop skills. You have to work on yourself. You have to know what your shortcomings are. If you have people if you have people um skills you have to refine them. communication skills, listening skills, asking skills, storytelling skills, motivation, resiliency, all of these things. It's a sh maybe I'll write another book. There's so much that goes into what I call human capital, which is which is what a person is in the workplace to develop. It makes the person a a a more complete individual. But it starts with I'm going to make a change right now. How do I Every time I I changed jobs, I was thrust into a vast ocean that I knew nothing about. It was scary. I had stomach aches. I literally couldn't eat for weeks. And it it but I knew this I have to do it. I had to be and I knew that I had to do it otherwise I wasn't going to support my family because it so getting over those initial fears and inhibitions and all that is the first step. Now good. Now what do I do? And I I train people how to do that. Go speak to people. Develop a mentor. You need a rebby in this in in in both a spiritual and a physical sense. Right? You have to have somebody who's guiding you and telling you this is a good book to read. This is what you should be working on and so on and so forth so forth. So this is really career coaching. I know people who have gone through school, they've gotten schooling and degrees and then they show up to get their job and they find out that that particular field is saturated. Correct. And you know But how would they know? Because they got guidance to go take a course in whatever it is 100%. So sales you feel is something that has tremendous potential and growth. At the same time there is obviously a risk because especially in the early stages there's no guarantee as to what you're earning. Correct. But you're saying that's what you would call a calculated responsible risk. Correct. As opposed to something. See, the difference between sales and everything else is that in 2008, thousands of mortgage brokers lost their job. In in 2001, thousands of computer programmers lost their job. And what happens is they had a skill that became antiquated or wasn't as needed as much as they as as it was, right? There were just not that many mortgages being originated in 2009 as there was in 2007. those that developed underlying skills like sales, I able to port that skill to another profession. I developed my sales skills in the printing business and then they went to the commercial to commercial um to corporate finance and now it it's in wealth management. And if Wall Street were to shut down one day and go completely out of business, I don't know. I guess I'd sell a airplanes or I don't know. It's a it's a human capital skill. It's not a knowledge of a specific industry. If you were a the biggest um cassette um um cassette tape salesman today, you're selling I don't know what's uh hard drives or whatever it is. It doesn't matter. You're in your product went away. So, I encourage people to look at it that way. And the other thing about sales is that the older you get, the better you get. Your rolodex grows. Your you refine your skills. everything gets better about you. You can't compare a 45year-old salesperson to a 22-y old sales person. That's an interesting thing because in many fields people feel that older people kind of lose their touch. Whereas you're saying in sales you're you're honing your skills. You're honing your skills and you're just getting better at it. Absolutely. Doesn't matter. Age is a a milo as it's a milo. When I worked when I worked in corporate finance, there was a man who was in his 70s and and they would have kept him until he was 100. Wow. Because he he had he was so seasoned. I learned so much from him. This is a person who worked on himself and really um so look the reason why there aren't more seminars about this is that the people that are successful a lot of them just don't know how to train other people to be successful. And really my hope is that th this book will give people the the kernels of information to start the process and working on things like self-esteem and confidence and motivation and will and to start recognizing that voice inside of each of us that keeps putting us down and dragging us into mediocrity or even worse failure. and start recognizing what are those things that are holding us back and how do we un unleash ourselves from them and that's that that that I'm hoping that this book will will start that conversation for people and then they will take that and they will go back to the swarm shanks or maybe more seminars will be developed to specifically deal with those things that are holding people back. Well, I want to thank you for joining us today, for the fountain of information that you are, for all the information and advice you gave us. I'm sure many people are going to benefit from this book from your lectures and we are looking forward to hashem to another volume in which you'll address whatever hasn't been addressed in this book. But continued and all you wonderful work. Thank you so much. Thank you for taking the time. Thank you. Heat. [Music]