Army Exemptions for Yeshiva Students Part 3 by Rabbi Anthony Manning

okay good morning everybody welcome thank you all for coming I would like to thank our our sponsors for 2024 for the Academic Year the shirim has sponsored Nish banabas brandit and zelig benman Al masam we are grateful uh for that sponsorship for the year and I'd like to ask you please remind you to turn off your phones we've had a pretty good run actually recently we've had a few weeks without any J Les so uh we'll see if we can keep that up um just uh thinking ahead a little bit we have two more sharing before pesak um and I like to turn to pesak topics and in two weeks from now we will for sure look at a pesak topic but there's something for me next next Monday which is somewhat irresistible and I hope that we'll actually have a lot of fun with it next Monday is radesh AR radesh Nissan and it all it is also um a day on which there is a major solar eclipse happening across North America um we've never spoken about those issues before and we'll have a long way to wait in yam for the next s Eclipse I think it's in about 250 years so on the basis that we probably won't be having the sherim then um I would like to speak next week about the issue of the eclipse and the sources of which there are many and fascinating so we'll just have one share on that and I hope you'll forgive me if I don't get straight into pce mode but we will be in pesak mode before pesak have no fear okay just in terms of uh this is the last sheer today of a three-part series on the very topical issue of army exemp exemptions for Yeshiva students and again let me just reframe what I'm trying to achieve in the shim and and try try to understand what our expectations should be in my opinion the the real issues that will need to be addressed to resolve this are not the sources it's important that we look at the sources for reasons that I'm I'll reiterate in a minute but the real issues are sociological and and and political um and religious as well but they're not necessarily source-based and just let me reiter what I said last week I think the two main issues which we're not really dealing with is firstly how can the Army experience for the Ked community be made in such a way that it will not jeopardize their religious observance and commitment which is a very real question it's a real question in the religious Zionist Community as well we saw Rin addresses that takes it very seriously uh and I'm sure there are any number of ways in which a hezer not the same hezer necessarily as with the uhi world but a for the world could be made in a way that that would be minimized to the extreme although there are some intrinsic uh stresses and strains like we spoke about of just being in the Army and how that affects one's brain power and ability for religious growth that's one important issue and a second important issue which is the sociological one is does the Community or which parts of it do they feel Israeli do they feel that this is part of their world view and obligation I think that's a very important Point um Mr Bron one second Mr Bron sent me some very excellent articles um over the last week or so um but in my mind the most interesting to me was an article that I highly highly recommend by Rabbi Yeshua Feer I have the article here it wasab Yeshua Feer is a a massive is a Dian he's a person who is a a voice for a very authentic and proud Hasa which is also more integrated within the Israeli world and the Jews in Israel as a whole he has a website called which appears in English and in Hebrew and there's an English article um which he calls here Army service a matter of Jewish belonging and I I highly recommend it you'll find it online very easily um and one of the things he says there which I think is really on the button which I hadn't thought about is that if you went to an American today maybe a very um Zionist American supportive of Israel and the war in in all meaningful ways and you said to them like we're very grateful for your support and enthusiasm but if you challenged them and said why haven't you enlisted in the Army they'd look at you in puzzlement and say well I'm American I'm I'm not Israeli why why would I support the war but why would I enlist in the Army and and that will be a reasonable response of course there ask volunteers who do maal which is an unbelievable idealistic commitment but in the same way if you speak to many people says Raf in the community not everybody but many people they will just look at you with the same bewilderment and say why would I enlist I support the nation I support the war but I'm not going to enlist I'm not Israeli now you could turn around and say well you are Israeli you receive Israeli benefits and etc etc okay I'm not I'm not justifying that response but understanding that response is part of the way that we can actually go towards addressing it and and and I see that very much when I I mix quite personally in the k Community quite a lot and and I think that is is a response which people have and it's a question of educating people to try and understand whether there's another way of looking at it but that's I recommend that article but we're not really dealing with those issues although they're the most important issues and I honestly don't have much to say I don't feel that this platform justifies me sharing my own personal political sociological views with you um maybe I'll say a few things at the end but the the the purpose of these three sh is to look at the sources and by the time we finished this sheet we'll have seen 120 or more of which I'd say half are classic traditional sources as opposed to Modern analysis and I think it's important to look at these sources because of two things sometimes people tell me from the more perspective well why are you arguing with this the Torah the Torah clearly says it's asked to draft it's clear in the sources and the answer is there is definitely uh an argument to be made from the sources and we'll see more today that there is a legitimacy to a limited exemption of Torah scholars in certain situations but it doesn't spread necessarily to 66,000 people who are all claiming that exemption and it doesn't necessarily apply in the circumstances we find ourselves in right today um on the other hand I've heard people from the more dati Lumi side of things quite angrily say why are they doing this there are no sources they're not it's not correct there not and we'll see today as well R Aaron lonstein was very careful to avoid saying that it's very disrespectful to say that I my reading of the sources is the only reading of the sources you can have an argument you could say we read the sources this way you read the sources that way but there are definitely sources which support um an argument that is made for an exemption again not necessarily everybody and not necessarily right now but there are sources and it's it it's unpr to deny them because it under undermines other legitimate um toe reviews yes we could talk we could talk all day about this and you're absolutely right to raise it but I don't want to because I want to just look at the sources I'm not I'm not dismissing what you're saying but we could speak for an hour and then we'll all come out of here frustrated honestly let's let's let's focus on this I want to talk about four things today I need to watch my time management because I don't want to run run out of time for the last one which is in my mind in many ways the most interesting um I want to talk about the idea that Torah Scholars get protection because of the Torah they learn where does that come from I want to talk about the issue ofah can you say well I'm involved in this Mitzvah it's wrong hierarchically for me to stop and start doing it even if I say it's an enormous Mitzvah to fight in the Army I'm doing another Mitzvah why are you pulling me away from that we need to talk about the idea of of combination of Torah learning and Army service is an enormous Mitzvah of gim which we haven't really looked at and at the very end I want to look at a piece from the NV um which I think is absolutely fasc fascinating which I saw because um Mr Broner sent it to me um because he saw it in one of nson slifkin Rabbi nson slifkin um posts now I don't necessarily agree with the way that Rabbi slifkin uh addresses these issues he's a friend of mine and I understand his position um but he does have some interesting sources that he raises so let's start um with the issue of Tor Scholars being protected um let's look at number one where does this start so when you're building a town a city a country everybody has to contribute there is a basic fairness in that reality and therefore says number one M we force people who live in the town live not to build a city in in the the the city we force people when they're in a town and we have to contribute towards the the the costs of the upkeep to build a city walls to build a city Gates and to build a city locks on the gates that's everybody benefits everybody has to contribute number two the gamorra analy analyzes this RAB so rabar ask RAB the following how do we allocate responsibility who should pay more and who should pay less cuz shahim Goin when they collect money from people people for these communal um issues do we go by how many kids you have how many people are in your family you have a family of 15 you should be paying more you're getting more benefit but you have a family of two you should be paying less or dma or maybe go him or maybe we depend on how much money you've got you have a family of 15 but you're penniless well that those two things may be related and you have a family of two and you have a lot of money you should pay more and other people say no says the gamor bo a different question do we charge more to the people closer to the walls because they're getting more benefit if a bandit were to break through and Rob the first house he could come to so the people who were at the edge get the most the most uh protection or or do we again assess it on money so just in terms of trying to work out the fair approach the gamorra is Keen on this Reb hood and AIA Reb hood and which who was the na of the Jewish people he imposed a tax to build the wall but he imposed it on imposed it on the rabbis as well the rabbis of the townish andish objected and he said and here's the key line the rabbis shouldn't pay because the rabbis don't get any benefit they don't need protecting because the Torah will protect them so why are you asking them to pay and he brings a proof text I I number them and they're greater than the sand the greater than the grains of sand what what what what is God numbering in this this is what saying saying I am looking at the acts of the and they are more even than the scent the says the this is all the more so even though which is very small sandbank can protect against the sea the acts of the which are so much greater won't they even more so protect them by the way I would just mention here that the word used for these people is sikim sikim now sikim is quite a strong word it's not just everybody it's the mass the massim of the sikim that protect them they shouldn't have to pay when heard about this he said look I have another source why didn't you bring from this this is quite related stuff I am like a wall and my breasts are like the towers that is the Torah Torah is a wall and my breasts are like the towers the ramparts they get a protection their wall is their Torah here by the way it says not now you might say well they should be the same thing but maybe maybe maybe not always um so there is a clear idea the rabbis don't have to pay although it's interesting rebud and AIA didn't agree with this he charged the rabbis he obviously has a different position and I brought you the continuation of that gamorra because I think this is a gamorra with something of a sense of humor people say well is there humor in the gamor the answer is yes there is but it's just very old okay so let's let's have a look at number three I'm a rebi rebi laments living in the second third Century punishment comes to the world because of now who are we tend to use the word ameh today to mean people who are ignorant who haven't learned that's not how kazal learns it kazal learn it as people who have a negative attitude who sit around all day long sort of saying what do the rabbis do anyway just think of moreas to make our lives more difficult it's an attitude problem an amha arits why do the amha arits cause us all these problems he says here's a case k khila there was a tax by the Romans Rashi says to make a crown for the Emperor or the governor they put they put money on the Jews they taxed them to shadaria and they put the money on Taria Taria has to pay for this so the men of women of Taria maybe just the men but the people of Taria came before re and they said you have to tax the rabbis as well shivel you must text the RAB tax the rabbis how come the rabbis get off this they have to pay so he said to them no I'm not doing that I'm not taxing the rabbis I don't believe in it AMU they said Aran we leave and see what you'll do then am he said aruku so leave see don't threaten me so aru so half of them left the town so Dalia palga so so then the the Romans said oh it's only half the town left so we'll we'll reduce it by a half okay so they reduced it by a half so so the half that was left came in front of re and they said to him we insist that the rabbis have to payi said to them La so aruk they said we'll leave aruku so leave so they all left apart from one launderer who was the neb that was left in the town he was left him and the rabbis so Shak so the the the Romans put the whole of the tax on this one launder okay so what so ARA K so he ran away as well so there there's nobody so Paka cleer so then they just cancel they said these Jews they're just a pain in the neck we just cancel the whole thing nobody's left nobody's going to pay so so am so amabi says you it's all about people demonstrating rabbis have to pay the rabbis have to be part of this I bring you this kamor because I I really believe that there is a genetic trauma um sort of embedded within the Jewish people of this attitude about are the rabbis paying their their their way are they giving their Fair contribution this is not something I know we tend to think our modern day just came out of nowhere there's a lot of history there's a lot of baggage even just 150 200 years ago when the Russians were demanding that people sent the boys to the Russian army and it wasn't like the IDF they went for 25 years many of them never came back and if they came back they weren't the same people and in many case it was it was the rabbis of the Town who had to decide who goes who doesn't go there's a lot of resentment left because of that as well so this is not something which we just arrived at in 2024 but let's just finish this Source because the next part is also very important three lines from the bottom everybody has to pay for the pillars for the town even the orphans even the people with very low means but the rabbis is not the r because they don't need protecting they're not getting any benefit from these columns in the town Amar Papa and ra Papa reiterates L for the wall of the Town LA par for the gods of the Town Lina for the Armory of the Town a me even the orphans have to pay but the rabbis not they don't get any benefit because their Torah protects them okay Adan the gamorra number four we're going to we're going to we we we're going to we this is not the end this is not the end this is just the beginning okay let's go number four I'm again I want you to know the sources cuz the sources are there so Kanan says or he came along he put a pole tax on the rabbis he taxed them a pole tax turned around to him and said you're breaking the Torah the Nim and theim by taxing the rabbis this pole tax and again the gar then lists what is in the Torah what is in the what is in but again a clear uh Source the ramban when he paskin this number five the the don't get pulled out with everybody else tole and to build and to dig Medina of the things that are needed in the town because the shouldn't be disgraced in that way that they're shlepping and digging in front of the whole town and when it comes to taxing let's say we hire other people to slap and dig we don't charge them money for this and and not for gifts that are sent to the king they don't have to pay tax whether it's a PO tax they don't have to pay the same taxes because a PO tax is where you charge the same amount per for each person for one person meaning we're not going based on your for um finances to raise taxes a pole tax is seen in some places as the most Fair the fairest version of taxes and the least Fair version tax anyone who was alive in 80s in the 1980s in England Margaret Thatcher ran into a lot of trouble with the pole tax I still remember it as a student that was the big demonstrations of the time okay not for now um although it's nice to bring Margaret Thatcher in every now and then number six the the the he says whoa whoa wait a minute let's just understand what this gamarra is talking about and this is extremely important he says when he says the rabbis don't have to contribute the money they don't have to pay for the tax and for the wall Isel I think what he mean by G Israel there is that that the Jews live in precarious circumstances they're in GIS they need protection just as Jews the rabbis don't need to pay for that cuz they have their own Torah to protect them but when it comes to International Warfare the country needs an army not because there are Bandits or because there are things that go wrong in the country but there's an enemy trying to invade trying to attack us why would you think in your mind that was exempt the local exemption is local because there are local problems the Torah will protect them but in terms of the of the international scene he says VHA is not exempt from exempt from all taxes the that they collected every year from everybody for the public fund forb paid for that a wall that is needed or an army that is needed for an international protection meaning you know as as a Riva who I won't name because I'm not sure he'd want me to name him once said to a room of young who are arguing why should they have to contribute in the same way he said one second are you happy for us to take away the IDF the police force the security forces and you and your Toral learning will protect you from all the forces that surround you and want to attack you are you happy with that because if you say no then that's that you're not in this para it's a different para and the is making a very important point there leaving aside the next point which is who is a Tor scholar who does this apply to look at the yadama yeah here it's all talking about correct not about joining the 100% And that's a point that I actually wanted to make there's no reference anywhere directly in the rambam that are Exempted from fighting in the Army correct this is a financial issue and we'll see whether it extends to the Army we'll see that coming up soon let's move on number seven says the Rama who qualifies as a Torah scholar this is not the Rama in this is the r ra ABF all these taxes that we put on the on the to build the walls to build the doors they're Exempted from those nevertheless by definition you have to be a who is constantly involved in your learning as much as you possibly can call as much as everyone can it says in you're learning constantly who don't constantly involving themselves in Terror it's not enough that they can just make a bare living they want to work they want to have a vacation they want to make some money they want to buy a property and they're prepared to take time off from Torah to do these other things there's no that these people will be exempt from anything unless you're in it totally your mom valila and you're prepared to have a subsistence living there's nothing to talk about you're not in this para at all and the the rvah coin he doesn't coin the phrase it's already from the gamar but he talks about Tas which is of course the phrase used in the in the Israeli legislation only somebody whose Torah is their life is their vocation and therefore you can't um you can't be included in this category unless you're really on on that level um I'm not going to read all of number nine he basically the brings all of these views that we've said and said the Torah has to be your your life but then thear adds in the just look at the Rashi scripts at the bottom raos Isis says again he's defining who's who's Exempted in this in under this head of exemption say I don't mind specifically whether he's enrolled in a Yeshiva that's not the point the point is is he on this level but he's considered in his generation to be a he he can navigate his way through the whole of the Torah this this is the end of number nine it's a who knows his way around the whole most of the areas of the tal he puts a very high bar and he says it's not good enough that you sitting and learning all day you have to be a real T to be exempt you know your way around Torah around the poim around theim you're not just somebody uh who is sitting and learning even though that's an amazing thing if you're sitting and learning alone that doesn't qualify now I brought you in the footnotes not everyone agrees with the Rama there were other people that said No it should be extended to to Bim but everybody agrees in TAS and one of the things that um R FEA brought in his article here that I mentioned is that the gim of the community raak the stier and others were very very clear and this was a voice that was heard up until 20 30 years ago that any Yeshiva B who is not totally immersed in their learning who is somehow doing learning and something else has to be drafted this is the the GM of the community and they even went so far as to say that uh any Yeshiva B who is playing the system he's not hoso and he's claiming an exemption even though he's not fully immersed is a RF that's not my words you can read it in the article a re a re why a reida like a pursuer they're actually endangering the rest of the community because these people are playing the system and are endangering the genuine learning of the genuine who you could argue are entitled to an exemption and therefore I'm not someone who has all the figures to hand but of the 66,000 young men who are claiming the exemption of draft age there's a very very significant number of those people who are not within this definition of taso not just according to these sources but according to the koling themselves now one of the arguments that I've heard from K colleagues and friends and I try to have you know discussions with people in a very civilized way they say listen you can't fault us for following our own gim that's a legitimate thing we we are from a society where we believe very strongly in D Torah and you can disagree with it agree with it but that Society really agrees with it D Torah is a very important thing and therefore we will do what our gdolim tell us so don't don't come knocking on our door we're just doing what we're told so two responses to that are well look at what The Gum actually say the people whose whose views you follow day in day out the stier and ravak Etc they don't say what is going on right now and also so you can't always hide behind the gdm because at the end of the day we all pick our own gdm we pick the society in which we live and therefore have a certain amount of responsibility of course they could come back and say well yeah that's theoretical but realistically we don't really get a choice we are what we are and we can't just jettison it and suddenly become part of the datti Lumi Society it's a complete shift of Lifestyle I actually do hear that but it's not it's not possible just to say we follow the gdm there's more to it that move on page three um very quickly I want to just deal with this issue of the army exemption because itamar quite correctly said though what we've seen so far does not necessarily extend to the Army although there were posim who clearly thought it did looking number 11 let's leave the Kasam s for in number 10 he's talking about um bakim being recruited into the austr Hungarian Army um where he says they don't have to go but look at number 11 a short tuver by raav mosha Feinstein RAV mosha was asked in 1981 by two young men in nativ May High School I don't know what became of these young men let's have a look at number 11 I hope their successful say it how it is should we learn in Yesa or should we go to the Army so he says here number 11 Source number 11 and the the people who send the the important young men learning Mar Daniel Krauss and marba okay if you know these people then please put me in touch with them okay he says he said of course fighting in the Israeli Army is very very important he says it's a very important thing but learning Torah is even more important even more important than going off to to protect the country and he brings in Basra the sources we've said and again he applies it to two young Bim in the so not massive and he applies it to the Army draft because the rabbis don't need that protection and it seems that the the Israeli Community the Israeli government agrees with this cuz they Grant you an exemption so if they Grant you an exemption why would you not take it someone who's learning in learning Torah they're completely exempt from going to the Army certainly someone who has a desire to learn Torah to become to be a big they should for sure go to Yeshiva the he'll bring to is okay now you might disagree with that but this is RA Feinstein this is not an extremist quote unquote of course I don't know what R Musha Feinstein would have said in 2024 you never know whenever you quote from a Chua from any period you might turn around and say well of course he wouldn't have said that today maybe you're right maybe you're wrong but he said that in 1981 and the matv was not so poshed in 1981 this was just before the Lebanon war this was shortly after the on Kipper War but he clearly ruled that way so to turn around and say there's no sources R MOSI Feinstein is a Solid Source but have a look at RAV M RAV Aon lonstein have a look at number 12 so RAV Aon says in his famous essay we looked at a lot in the first session uh While most AR atic one Locus classicus is purely halic the gar Basra states that are exempt from sharing the cost of Municipal fortifications in as much as they do not require protection and analogously it is contended they should be Exempted from military iservice it must be stated in reply that such a claim raises a very serious moral issue can anyone whose life is not otherwise patented after this degree of trust and ban argue for exemption on this ground is it possible to worry about one's economic future in evident disregard of Reb's statement that whoever has bread in his basket and says what shall I eat tomorrow is but of little faith and still not enter the Army because one is presumably safe without it he's raising the point that I just said before are you really on that level do you really think that you're the kind of person who feels that your Terror protect through or you just faking it you're just saying it for the exemption I had a a discussion with a a colleague of mine who has a lot of children he's a he's children in full-time learning part of the k Community and his children were learning in ofakim still are learning in ofakim and of course at the beginning of the war uh the they send the students away because it was right in the middle of a war zone but very very quickly after the beginning of the war within a few weeks the Yeshiva said okay we're going back toim okay to them and this person came up to me and said what shall I do I'm really scared my my ofakim it's it's right next to the Gaza border still things are not settled at all am I allowed to send my should I send my kids there and I said to him of course you have to you can't claim that you have an exemption from the Army on the base that the Torah protects you and then at in the same breath say but I don't really believe the Torah protects me yeah you have to you have to be you have to be honest you have to be authentic and I think he sent his kids back col to him let's continue with raron I recall some years back admiring the cander of a MAG who confided to me that he'd moved from a neighborhood in which most young men served in sahal to one in which they did not because while he might be convinced intellectually that he ought not to serve in the Army he knew full well that he didn't possess the depth of faith upon which such an exemption could only be granted hence he felt too ashamed especially as his sons were coming of military age to remain in his old baileywick perhaps not many would share his response but the basic situation is probably not uncommon and many at least for many at least an argument based on this gamarra is consequentially problematic so he says you have to be um honest um and then in number 13 which I'm going to skip now he says at the end of the day it's a little bit like a um uh people living in a a block where they're all paying for a a television antenna is his example the people who don't have a television don't need to pay for the television antenna so it's as simple as that in terms of fairness of payment but he said when you extend it to the Army it's a bit different number 14 the situation is radically different however with respect to an obligation which is precisely rooted in the responsibility to help others qu others this is a really important Point does anyone suppose that one's duty to engage in a defensive Mitzvah to help save the people of Israel from a foe has descended upon them is based so on the fact that one is presently or potentially in danger within the context of an egocentric ethic of a of a Manderville or Adam Smith Bernard de mandville and Adam Smith had a very uh controversial and people thought very egotistical uh philosophies possibly but from a tah perspective however this would be a strange Doctrine indeed the more so to the extent that we correctively perceive that such action is mandated by the general Norm of gim and not just a specific commandment of a defensive War consequently the gar provides no rationale whatsoever for totally exempting from military service they may not require protection even if they fall in this category but others do and their duty to defend those who have no built-in armor remains this is a fundamental Point you're a big time let's say You're really the real deal toas you learn all day and all night and your Torah protects you and you really believe that does your Torah protect everybody what if they don't learn Torah it never says anywhere in these goras since there are in the city you don't need to build a wall why not why who needs a wall learn T the tah protects everybody doesn't say that it says it protects them so they don't need to contribute because they're not benefiting if they're the real deal but everybody else still needs protection so how can you say I am Exempted from this community obligation just because I am the real deal yes that's what I said that's what I just said I think yeah they they're Exempted they're Exempted from contributing to the wall correct but if if my if my brother is in dire need of protection right now the fact that I'm not obligated to build a wall doesn't mean I'm not in any way obligated to go out of my way to protect I may be financially Exempted but I am I Exempted personally in on the basis of the not to stand by While others are suffering is not Exempted by the fact that you have a financial P from paying for this whole they're two different things Sayes ofon and your point one second uh about Hitler is number 15 this was written by Rabbi Zan three years after the Holocaust where Rabbi Zan called out against the Rabon in Yim who was saying that the didn't need to go to the Army rabbis do not need protection he says God Almighty when actual lives are at stake may we rely on miracles in 1929 at Hebron such a Calamity should never occur twice tragically it has didn't young students of the Yeshiva whose Holiness Shone like Stars in the Sky Fall before the malicious enemy please he says did these Martyrs need protection or not and those same murderous Arabs are still the enemy today if you understand that the scholars need no guarding in relatively peaceful times and are exempt from building the protective walls what consequence has this when compared to a life and death struggle a war which is a Mitzvah and in which all are obligated the defense authorities ordered everyone to cover all their Windows as a protection against shattering glass in case of an air rate would anyone think that some rabbis will not do so claiming rabbis do not need protection did anyone involved in Terrorist study exempt himself from this why did rabbis leave areas on the enemy fire along the rest with the rest of the general population why did they not rely on this Maxim is this D Ty they took this Torah concept out of context and used it improperly while if it were used in its proper context it would be a valuable P don't throw the baby out with the bath water there is a real idea in are exempt there's a real Torah basis for it but don't misuse it and apply it this is a bit like the sofa who said that if you're in a national emergency none of these things apply and therefore he's raising that question so I hope you see on this issue there are different perspectives and uh this is one of the main issues which is raised by as a source by the kedi community in justifying a draft so let's just put that to the side I'm not going to deal with the issue of hasem it's a very important issue do you feel that what's going on at the moment is a hasem or not and Rabbi Alfred Cohen in this article on young Yeshiva men in the Army he he goes back and forth on this and says well of course from their perspective it's not a hasem because they don't think they're doing anything wrong but on the other hand even if you're not doing anything wrong but other people think you're doing something wrong that may still classify as a it's worth thinking about that and he goes back and forth you can read this on your own it's an interesting Source there's one thing which is for sure it's where Jews are all fighting with each other that for sure is and therefore one has to really try and keep this on a level you know demonstrating is not going to help screaming and shouting in the streets is not going to help on either side that for sure is a let's quickly look at page five this is more of a technical issue but I wanted to raise it with you there's a general principle in that if you're involved in one Mitzvah you're Exempted from another let's look at the source number 17 says the if you're out doing a Mitzvah on the road as a you don't have to sit in a you can eat anywhere you want you're doing a Mitzvah so the says Where do we know this idea that you're Exempted from you must read the shma when you're sitting in your house but that excludes what if you're out and about doing mitzvas you're not at home free okay so then you don't have to read the when you're out on the road that excludes the who is busy doing doing a Mitzvah with his wife Kal in the house he's not able to do the where do we get this from like when it says when it says like the like when just like when you go out for a walk it's not something that you have to do it's something you choose to do you're going on your D you're going on vacation that's very nice so to whenever you're doing anything optional you have to stop to do a Mitzvah but that exempts or that excludes if you're involved in a Mitzvah you don't have to do another Mitzvah and the rvah we're going to skip some of the inside reading here in number 18 says not only do you not have to but you're not allowed to doesn't just mean but it's up to you it means ass because now you're doing one Mitzvah the other thing since you're exempt the other thing doesn't have the status of a Mitzvah at least for you and therefore you're not allowed to do it um toast clarifies in number 19 of course Mitzvah means you have to be actively involved I can't say well I'm wearing tius so I'm I'm doing Mitzvah all day I don't have to do anything I'm doing a Mitzvah the answer is no you're not involved in wearing tizas it's just a passive thing of course you have to do other Mitzvah but when you're involved then you don't have to do another Mitzvah so Yesa learning in Yeshiva they're very actively involved it's not a passive thing they're doing a Mitzvah there's no question even if you want to say that they're not the biggest fine but they're very much involved in a Mitzvah why are we going to slep them away from doing that Mitzvah so they can do another Mitzvah even if you say fighting in the Army is a big Mitzvah who says that you're allowed to take people from One Mitzvah to do another Mitzvah and the answer to that question is there is apparently one exception to this rule which is when you're learning Torah if you're learning Torah then sometimes you do have to break to do another Mitzvah look at number 20 says the gamor in this should say mo cotton sorry I just missed off the cotton in MO cotton it is more he talking about Tah it is more precious than pearls and all of your possessions are not equal to the worth of your Torah anything you own is less valuable than Torah which implies but that which is not yours but which is God's as as in a Mitzvah is equal to Torah but then there's another is greater than greater than pearls and no other belongings are worth that even other mitz are not worth Torah this worth as much as Torah how do we understand that and here's the key if the Mitzvah can be done without with by other people so then your toorah is more important but if the other Mitzvah cannot be done by other people then you have to stop learning and do it meaning generally with a Mitzvah it doesn't matter who else is available if I'm doing a Mitzvah I don't have to stop and do another Mitzvah with Torah it depends if I'm the only person that could do this other Mitzvah I have to stop and do the other Mitzvah if others can do it I don't have to stop the Mei which I didn't put on the sheet says the rationale is that the purpose of Torah or one of the purpose is to learn so that you will be able to do Mitzvah what's the point of learning all day long and when then when a Mitzvah comes along that no one else can do you just ignore it your your learning is to train you to do Mitzvah amongst other things so you have to break off and that's why and that's in the ram He codes en codes it in number 21ah T if you have a Mitzvah that can be done and also Torah to be learned if you conf find other people to do the Mitzvah you can't break up from your learning the IM and if there's nobody else and look at these words carefully he should stop learning do the Mitzvah and come back afterwards to his Torah now there are those that want to say that only if you'll be able to come back to your Torah learning should you stop according to the rambam to do the Mitzvah but what if I'm going to do this Mitzvah and this Mitzvah is going to take me off in a direction where I'm actually not in the end going to come back and learn either because I won't have time or because I I won't want it anymore so maybe then you don't have to stop the learning because the rambam is very clear you have to stop because no one else can do it but only if you can come back and learn and there are other rambam which seem to say other things but that's the parameters of our debate so let's work out how this works po pop over to to number six page number six again I'm I'm making sure that I've got time to to do the things that I need to do so there are a number of uh counterarguments to this you could turn around and say okay I'm learning in yiva um I don't have to stop learning because the Mitzvah can be done by somebody else so is that true first of all you could turn around and say well maybe that was true until October the 7th meaning why have we let this slip in society over the last 30 years because I think a lot of people maybe even the Army have been saying you know something we're moving towards a situation where we won't really need such a big army we we rely a lot on technology we'll need a small standing army like the British have like the Americans have and we don't really need the community in the Army so why cause such a mlus when probably won't even be necessary all that has changed overnight the Army now says we're fighting a four on nine fronts we're add a war on nine fronts I'm not going to go through all the fronts and every single person is needed and it's not just propaganda because they're pulling out recruits trainees from Minas before they're properly trained and pushing them into the to the front lines they're they're pulling miluim nikim back from their families when the miluim nikim are very very expensive they have to pay them a load of money and they don't earn and pay tax in their jobs you would only bring in miluim nikim if you really really needed to there is no reason to do it unless it's absolutely necessary so maybe you can't say the Mitzvah can be done by everybody it needs you because we need more people that's number one number two who says that um it's okay to say someone else can do it if that someone else doesn't want to do it and they want you to do it is that the same meaning I assume if yeah everybody's happy he'll do the midst for else didn't learn but what if everybody's not happy is that the same and also very important Point who says that the best people to fight in the Army are the people who were not the Tam who are not the people learning Torah daa when you send according to the the Torah when you send back the people from who who shouldn't be fighting the people you send back are the people who don't do Mitzvah you want the people who do Mitzvah in the front lines so it's very hard for to say someone else could do this Mitzvah because maybe you're the person to do it we want you because you're the interesting so it's not so easy to rely on this either um two more things somebody asked last week what about and the answer is that is actually a very important point there is a an interpersonal Dimension to this which is unbelievably important the famous line of M 26 your brothers are going to go to war and you're going to stay here and the NV explains in Number 27 that your brothers endangered their lives so that you could inherit your portion it wasn't just you that fought for aaay and for Trans Jordan everybody fought and everybody risked so that you could live here now you're going to tell them that you're not going to fight for their portion how can you do that the says is this is a terrible Injustice against the Jewish people when they fought for you and you won't fight for them and R lonstein brings this out in a lot of depth number 28 the halakic Rashi Alpha HDA does not as some mistakenly assume rest solely on the Mitzvah of waging defensive War if that were the case one might conceivably argue that Hally 16 months of Arvy service was too high a price to pay for the performance of a single commandment meaning Mitzvah fine but who says that even that is is enough to justify taking you away from learning even the hezer boys the rational rather rests on a the simple need for physical survival and of course R Lin wrote this in 1981 and B the fact that milit service is often the fullest manifestation of a far broader value gim the empathetic concern for others and action on their behalf this element defined by kazal as one of the three Cardinal foundations of the world is the basis of Jewish Social ethics and its realization even at some cost to the single-minded development of Torah scholarship is virtually imperative and this is something which I don't think anyone out there in the Ked Community has perhaps internalized in this way cuz they're not reading I'm not saying anybody anybody's wrong Lots the the community has lots of different people doing lots of different things but RAV listenin is not standard reading I wonder whether people have really internalized that it's not that we're taking you away from a Mitzvah to do some to take out the garbage and that's why I said last week shivon maneta is a terrible expression no religiously sensitized person should ever use the Expression shival we don't believe in the quality we talked about that last week and to see the Army service as a burden is is a disgrace but the idea that Army service combined with terar is actually a much bigger Mitzvah have you thought about that have people thought that through maybe they didn't really internalize that look at number 29 this is a source from aod Zara fascinating Source whichin also quotesab RAB RAB were captured by the Romans you'll remember was killed for teaching Torah in public he was the father of bre so says to excuse me you're lucky you've been arrested for one thing teaching Torah in public you have one count of against your name but look at me there's no end to the now the clock has fallen down it's my fault I put the clock there um uh you're lucky I've been arrested for five different things I've been busy doing this against the Romans and this against the Romans and defending Jews here and defending Jews there I'm on five counts what's going to be so look at how he responded uh one second yeah second line says no you got the wrong way around you're lucky that you've got you've got five counts against your name okay cuz you're going to get out of here I'm the one in trouble I've just been arrested for one thing and explain you why because you've been arrested for teaching Torah and running around to help the Jewish Community against the Romans and all I did big as it is was teach you've been involved in protecting the community says anyone who devotes their life to only learning Torah is like someone who has no God look at the there were many days in Israel says they lacking a God sometimes they lack to Goden Myra sometimes they lack to Cohen to teach them sometimes they lacked torahs what does it mean that they lacked God but didn't lack Torah meaning sometimes they lacked God but they had Torah what does that mean now what does this mean obviously it's a balance also did well he never dided he just turned everybody away he only Tau T of course not he also dided and and the community for sure does enormous amounts of unbelievable amounts of and other communities also do but that doesn't give you a p because and Torah learning together if you really combine them in a meaningful way says that is that is a much higher level than someone who does whatever they do but their main focus is learning ter now okay maybe you'll say well for some people it should be this and for some people it should be that s and answer it okay that's something I thought you might be interested in let's just go look at the final thing and again I I uh I saw this Mr Bronner sent me this source and I'm really grateful that he did right we know they are the tribe that learns Torah look at what MOS what yov says about them number 31 is a strong boned donkey and he is lying between the boundaries he saw that it was good the and he saw the land that it was great and he bent his shoulder to Bear the burdens and he became a laborer what's going on such a complicated POS so the on that posk he says this is the story with a and before there was a king in Israel you can read this on your and I haven't time to read it all inside before there was a king in Israel they relied on each tribe to do the decent thing and if you remember shirat dvorah she criticizes some tribes you didn't step up to the plate every tribe had to send people yakar said you know something we don't really do War we learn Torah we're not really soldiers that Torah is what we do and he quotes from inim when David called on the tribes again before he was the king he called on the tribes to come to Kon to support him so this tribe sent 50,000 and this Tri sent 30,000 and 20,000 and 10,000 sent 200 people but and David said that's not how it works you can't turn up with 200 people we need you and David recruited them to the war and eventually yaka realized that okay you know um if you like kicking not kicking and screaming but reluctantly because he he interprets theim they enjoyed the Mana the Mana of what the man of being in the B Med learning Torah they said we we're not going to be dragged out to fight in the battle s says no that's not how it works and eventually yov says eventually you'll you put your shoulder to the to the mill and you'll push with everybody else because you have to you can't just say we learned Torah and we don't do anything else and finally just look at the last Source in 33 and 34 and this I do want to read inside when mosenu gives the bras to the tribes very famous so what do most people say learns Torah and Zulan goes out to business when when I used to be a lawyer and people used to come collect to collect money from my house when they thought I had something meaningful to give them they often used to say to me oh you'll give me support and and I'll learn hor and you'll give me your name and I'll learn her for you and beautiful and you can do a whole ven contract although I'm not sure how it works the other way if I make a a loss do you have take half my loss as well okay that's a different separate question it's a real question the N says no You' got the wrong chat it's not about business it's about the Army number 34 this is how the Jews did it when they went out to war they appointed people to go out to war to learn into to DAV at War they went out to the front lines with the Warriors these they camped out in and they camped out in they camp out where the war is he ques in okay they took 12,000 Jews out to fight and they took 12,000 out to learn and D to the front lines a so for a soldier want to fight one to learn that's the of mos happy are the Commandos that go out to fight happy is who go out to the war to sit and learn at the war okay you know something you don't want to be a soldier cuz you're not up to fighting Bader you're right not everybody's up up to fighting ADB David David said okay you've got to do something what did they do they made a Kel at the front lines a field coel don't sit and learn in Yus bring your Torah to Gaza and learn and be right there and in the evening when the soldiers come back you're all together and maybe stickle you'll learn with them even that and I don't know if this this is a realistic suggestion I'm not sure why it's not a realistic suggestion but you know let's just take ponich and take 12,000 of them down to Gaza and see what happens and Har on etc etc and sit and learn Torah again I'm not suggesting this as a political solution but I'm not not suggesting this either anyway we we there were other sources we didn't learn I want to stop because my time has exceeded next week we need to turn to other things but we're going to have a lot of fun okay because there's a lot to say about eclipses and even if you're not going to be in America uh you it's good to learn it too okay let's finish there