Uncharted Territory | Full Segment

Welcome to Unite to Heal, a 36-hour global broadcast powered by Amudum, an organization that has become a lifeline for our community. Ammudum is where people turn when life becomes too heavy to carry alone. Whether it's mental health struggles, addiction, abuse, or crisis, they're on the front lines every single day, reminding us that no matter how hard things get, nobody struggles alone. Unite to Heal brings together voices from across the Jewish world, Rabanim, educators, leaders, artists to remind us that healing begins when we face reality with honesty, faith, and compassion. Tonight, we're doing exactly that. This isn't a typical panel. We're calling this conversation uncharted territory. Things that as rabbis we never expected to face. Together with some of the most respected rabbitic leaders of our time, Rabbi Shai, Rabbi Ary Liowitz, Rabbi Larry Rothwax, Rabbi Efim Goldberg. We're going to talk about the real issues confronting our families and communities today. challenges that probably did exist a generation ago, but somehow not in the same presentation, not with the same intensity, and things that we have perhaps stopped denying existed in our community. Questions that, to be honest, many of us were never fully trained to answer. This is meant to be raw and real. It's going to be intense, but it's also going to involve some anecdotes that I'm sure will bring a smile to your faces and ours. And it's rooted in Torah because the Torah has something to say and rabbis have what to say about every challenge, even the ones we never imagined we'd face. >> And with that, should we begin by introducing ourselves >> more fully? >> My name is Larry Rothwax. I'm the rabbi of Congregation Bethron and Tene, where I've been for 24 years. I have the privilege of serving as a director of professional robinics at REITs involved in training the future of the rabinet and uh more recently I've had the privilege of becoming a licensed social worker. So I'm also transitioning a little bit into the space of mental health counseling. These are overlapping fields but obviously each with their own unique opportunities and challenges. Now from Goldberg I'm in Boca Raton Florida. We have uh considered a large community, a large shoo of a little over a thousand families, very very diverse and spanning all kinds of ages, backgrounds, levels of observance, political affiliations, uh levels of knowledge, hashkafos, and that presents a lot of common themes and challenges in the world today, but also some nuanced differences between them. And uh it's an honor to be here. >> Thank you. I'm Anafam Penner. I uh was for many years a rabbi in Queens. Um and then uh I served as the dean of the Rabbi Isaacan Theological Seminary where I put together a team including Rabbi Rwax, Rabbi Liboitz to uh try to help the next generation of rabbis deal with many of the challenges that they would face. And now I have the privilege to serve as the executive vice president of the Rabbitical Council of America. I'm the only one here who doesn't have a congregation, but in a certain way I do. We support about a thousand rabbis around the world and uh I'm going to be bringing you not so much my own experiences in the last few years, but the collective wisdom of many of those rabbis. >> My name is Shai Sher. I'm the associate rabbi at the Young Israel of Woodmir. Uh we have a congregation here in New York that is one of the larger congregations in the country as well. And we have many different kinds of people with a varying degree of ages, different kinds of challenges. And we're here to talk about some of those together just to discuss as friends how we deal with some of the challenges that all of us are faced with. >> My name is Ary Liowitz. I am the rabbi of the shul where we happen to be right now in the bases of North Woodmir. It is not a very diverse neither in age nor in religious background type of congregation. However, my uh insight into the diversity of the Jewish people comes more from my other job as a rebi in the Smika program in RIT in Yeshiva University. When Rabbi Penner brought me in, uh I was able to connect with so many young rabbis, so many aspiring rabbis and many rabbis throughout the country who are dealing with a variety of different issues with different constituencies and uh you get to see the full gamut of the issues that come up. I think it's worthwhile to point out and to share that we're not just colleagues. People watching or listening might be surprised to know that rabbis don't just get along, but sometimes our good friends, like each other, mutual admirers, collaborate, and tap into each other's wisdom. So, I think it's exciting for us to do this together, not only as colleagues, but also as a group of of good friends. >> I think I would do this even if it wasn't fun. >> In fact, before the cameras turned on, it was more fun than after the cameras turned [laughter] on. >> Can we take our ties off yet or? Not yet. >> So where should we begin? Rebe Penner, >> I think probably uh to try to to to grapple with maybe to think back for the first time that you realize that as much as we try or we those who came before us tried to train us in SMA that we were sort of already in a different world. Um that as much as you can try to train in a classroom um that something is going to come before you. What memories do you have of something that happened in the first few years of your uponos? Um something that stands out that's something that you may have may have thought it would happen, but now that it was really in front of you, we're like, "Wow, this that this is an art community, too." >> I'll go back to literally the first day, well, the second day of the job because I started on a Sunday. On a Monday morning, I was sitting at my desk. I still recall many of my belongings still in boxes and I was staring at the phone. It was obviously not a cell phone because we didn't have them yet. and I was waiting for it to ring. It was 9:00 in the morning. I was sitting and waiting and approximately I don't know 9:08 9:09 the phone rang and there was uh a member of the shul who's no longer a member of the shul who told me that he was miserable in his marriage that uh he wanted to divorce his wife and he needed some guidance and help from me figure out how to how to make it happen. And um I hope this doesn't come across as insensitive in any way, but you know, being a rookie, excited to be the first day of my job, wondering if anybody was ever going to call me, I started to almost salivate. I'm like, "Wow, this is it. This is my moment. This is what it's all about. I'm now a rabbi." And I was pretty certain in that moment that I was going to save his marriage within the next, if not week, two weeks tops. We were going to figure this out together. He thought he wanted a divorce. He thought he was miserable. I was going to show him no, there's another path forward and we're going to figure this all out together. And I mentioned that first of all, it's a real example, but I it took me personally a long time to realize that uh two things are true at the same time. Rabbis have a very critical role and there are ways that we can be very helpful in crisis situations. There is a unique role that rabbis can fill that perhaps others can't. But perhaps the most difficult realization for me personally was that there are so many problems that we can't fix. There are so many puzzles that even if there is a solution, even if they can be solved, there's a limit as to what we can do. And being able to sort of hold both of those truths together uh every day is a is a big challenge. And it took me a while. Oh, it took me a really long time to realize that so often our role is to just listen and to be there and to help refer, but we can't necessarily fix and uh to to come to a place where we can accept that in a healthy way. For me, that was that took a while for me to learn that lesson. >> Can I ask you a cynical question? >> Sure. >> Um first day on the job, I deal with a lot of rabbis and on the first day on the job and someone calls them and says, "I have this major issue." almost 100% of the time that person had placed the call to the previous rabbi and it wasn't dealt with the way they exactly wanted it to be dealt with. They have a fresh person, fresh meat to uh you know to to go after or to try to maybe win the sympathies of when they couldn't with the last rabbi. Was that the case? Of course it was the case because the reality is what I didn't tell you but is that after that call it probably took many many weeks or months maybe even years before the st the phone really started to ring on a on a steady basis because most people are going to have to really get to know you and develop a rapport to to be able to know if they can really trust you enough to really open up. And I think what we're going to talk about today is is the many many issues that people struggle with and um and how much we try uh with varying degrees of success to avail ourselves. But you're correct. Uh he was he was definitely such an individual. Uh and there were others as well. And by almost by definition, if you're getting a call like that on the first day of the job, um it's not because anyone has tremendous confidence in your abilities to to take them to the finish line. Yeah. >> But you are highlighting a very important point that that space of the rabbi filling that void of not being the fixer, but being the one who's actually going to hold their hands is a very important space for you to fill. and one that probably many of the professionals would not be the appropriate fit to be filling. So, um I think that's also an important point that you're raising. >> I agree. I found myself um fairly often when people are willing when you have the rapport and there is the trust and they do make the appointment and they're sitting there and and they're so nervous and they're struggling to even communicate. And when you can calm down and say, "I'm not here to judge. I'm here to love. I'm here to help. I'm here to be your friend. I'm here to be a rabbi. I often say there's probably nothing you can share or tell me that haven't been involved with. Although every time I've said that, I've come to learn something new, which is also an important point. But I think to communicate that and transmit that as rabbis that certainly we have our values and our principles and our lives and our lifestyles and we're here to teach and promote and support Torah and Torah living and Torah standards and Torah expectations, but also the the humanity of Torah and the and the fallibility and the fact that we're real people. It's a real world. the Torah is not a utopian uh a utopian document and we're not here to judge. We're we're here to listen, to learn, to love, and to try to help you however we can. I remember also, I mean, as a young rabbi, I maybe was equally as excited to get a question about like the dish felchic fork and the milk dishwasher like again to put into practice all the things that we had learned. But at the first time, I was really jarred. Somebody had asked me to come over to the house. It was a man from the community and he shared with me something relatively scandalous in his own marriage and his wife's discovery of it. and its implications for their family and and really out of the ordinary. And I was a young rabbi somewhat somewhat perhaps naive that the things that happen in the general world are are happening in our own community. And and I remember I as I was listening to him, I was trying so hard to make sure he doesn't see that I'm shaking. Like I I remember feeling I'm shaking right now what I'm listening to. And especially thinking I didn't have the most insulated background. I was not, you know, I was a good boy. I was well behaved. But you know I I don't come from the most insulated background and and I was sh I was shaking and I was listening and I was trying to listen in a supportive way but working really hard that he not see I'm shaking right now and every time over the last also two and a half decades that um sometimes I encounter new things and I say well this is it this is for sure the last new thing I'll learn because we we've seen it all. And I I think that's also a really important idea that whatever is out there in the general world is happening in our community and maybe not the same percentage or the same extent um same awareness. And I don't think our community in Boca Raton is is disproportional or there's a lot more of it. I think it's I think or at least make me feel better to believe that it's happening in all in all communities. But what's happening in the world is happening in our communities as well. And one of the challenges for us as rabbis is to be aware and exposed and learn and love and help and somehow still be protecting ourselves, our purity, our avoda, our midos, our our sense of looking at the world in a certain way. And and to find that balance in between the two, I know is a a regular ongoing struggle. I think a lot of people assume the rabbi is the last person that they would want to speak to when something unfortunate is going on in their life, something that they wouldn't be proud of because they assume the rabbi is uh you know only sitting over a garra all day and what will he do with this? The reality is usually exactly the opposite. Um a seasoned rabbi, I'm not talking about someone with 30 40 years, but uh a rabbi who's in the field and connecting with his congregants probably has seen much more than your friends. Yeah, >> much more than another type of mentor. That's the position of the rabbi and that's what it means. I think the rabbi can often bring a lot of sage counsel and also a lot of support for things that people wouldn't think. Why why am I going to go to the rabbi? What you know the rabbi how what is he how is he going to react to this as if imaginative the rabbi is cordoned off on the realities of the community. And I find that usually it's exactly the opposite. the rabbis understanding of many of the issues going on in the community is much greater and society and the culture is much greater than the average person. It's interesting because I'm I'm so used to looking at that from a completely different vantage point when we're trying to train rabbitical students to be prepared for a range I mean a very wide range of possible issues and challenges will be brought to their attention. very often the rabbi will say to himself why are you coming to me and you know to ch train them first of all as Rabbi Goldberg said not to not to look at them and say oh my gosh I've never heard anything like this before that's that's crazy did that actually happen to you um even if even if in fact it is your first time you know not to say that um but ask yourself why is this person Taka coming to me and if somebody's really you know if they want to know you know what you know I I can't decide where to get pizza tonight I think you know I think you can actually say to you know, I'm not really sure that I have much to offer here in in case you do, but if somebody's coming and uh they're they're they're not necessarily even asking a question, but want to talk about a particular topic and you're saying to yourself, why why are they coming to me? I know the Rabbi Penner has offered some a whole range of possibilities why people would be coming to the rabbi other than, you know, the most obvious reasons to, you know, to because they're seeking halaka counsel. What are some reasons why people would come to a rabbi? many many more than the rabbi fixing it. Sometimes they hope in the case of this example that the rabbi is going to fix the problem. But very often I think that you know you learn this after that we all have those things where someone comes to us and we're like okay how am I going to fix this? Very often they're not really coming to the rabbi to fix it. And I think that was one of the hardest things for me to learn as a young rabbi. I remember a situation where a woman shared with me uh an abusive situation with her husband. Um but she didn't she didn't want me to reach out to my husband. It was an absolute uh a absolutely confidential which really left me with very few options. At the time I thought as a young rabbi that if I could just speak to the husband I could solve the problem. Of course that's not true either. But um she spent an hour crying and talking to me and she said I couldn't share this with anyone. Um, and uh, about 6 months later, she called me to tell me how disappointed she was that I hadn't followed up with her. And I was just thinking as a rabbi who was trying to fix the situation that couldn't be fixed. And when she left my office, I assumed I was done. What she really needed was someone she could talk to and someone she could cry to. And I think that that's something that you really learn as a rabbi and something that sometimes only a rabbi could do. Maybe a good friend. not everything could be shared with a good friend. That the role of the rabbi is simply to be there for somebody even if the problem can't be solved, can't be fixed. That uh simply being someone that somebody checks in on you. Someone who knows what's going on checks on you. Not the typical how you doing. Everybody says how you doing, but how you doing doesn't mean anything if you don't know what's going on in the person's life. And that was a really important lesson to learn. If I could highlight a different reason that people come to Rabbi is that maybe we need to be more sensitive to be able to see through. Um, Rabbi Schulie Marcus, another good friend of ours, uh, told me that his father, who was a great rabbi in Toronto, uh, once got a phone call at 2:00 a.m. and, uh, the fellow on the other end of the line was telling him this elaborate problem that he had. And Rabbi Marcus Zaka said to the fellow, "I it seems like you really have a problem, but this seems like a problem for a lawyer, not a problem for a rabbi." And the guy said, "I know, but I can't call my lawyer at 2:00 a.m." And a lot of times they'll call the rabbi because the rabbi is free. The rabbi is available. And that's part of our responsibility also to know when it's not a problem for the rabbi, when it's a problem for a therapist, when it's a problem for a lawyer, uh when it's a problem for that someone else might be better equipped to actually deal with. It's not only when we don't have the skill set, but continuing what we were saying is how do we place the boundaries? You know, I find struggle with that sometimes, too, is you want that person to know we're available, we're accessible, we care, we're following up, but where are the boundaries between when is it inappropriate that we become too much of a crutch, too available, too accessible? In what way are they getting in touch with us? Is there WhatsAppapping going on? you know, not crossing boundaries that, god forbid, are illegal or even natsanoa, but but we're the healthy boundaries for us, for our family, for our own identity to both be a resource and helpful, but also have healthy boundaries and times four. I don't know if that's something that you also face. >> Yeah, I think everybody in one way or another faces that, but I always like to as I'm deflecting, as I'm saying, maybe this isn't a 2 a.m. conversation, and it usually isn't. um at least to feel fortunate that the person reached out because I think that's ultimately what the rabbit is about is about making those connections with people and letting people understand that you're someone that they can turn to. Um and so you know you don't it is inappropriate when they attack you with the kittish or when they call you at a at the wrong time or whether but I think that it it's also we could be thankful that you know we've succeeded with this person in the sense that this person feels that they can they can call us and they can they can reach out to us. >> You know talking about the 2 a.m. call. Sometimes the 2 a.m. call is exactly why they're calling the rabbi because they know that at 2 a.m. when, let's say, there's a situation that does need to be addressed at 2 a.m., some major crisis in a hospital or some extremely abusive situation, the rabbi is the only call they can make. And the fact that they feel comfortable doing that, I think, speaks to the relationship that a rabbi can have with the community. And it's important for that to be recognized as well. But sometimes that is appropriate. Sometimes >> sometimes >> sometimes don't learn from this [laughter] discussion that it's appropriate >> on a daily basis on >> a regular basis but sometimes sometimes it is a sign of success and sometimes the sign of someone who's uh a little socially awkward and um on the rabbi I suppose what did you mean by boundaries meaning to maintain our own mental health and our own or did you mean something else? there's somebody who leans on you whatever they're going through in their life, be it recovery, be it um a family situation, and and you've now responded. You're available, you respond, you meet, you give advice, wisdom, or you're just listening. So that becomes a very comfortable place to go either because like you pointed out, you don't charge for your time at the end of the hour. You don't kick them out and say, "Our hour is up. You need to go make an appointment and I'm not available for two more weeks." So, so then they start to text or leave regular voice notes. And where do you set the boundary between I'm here, I'm available, and I want you to know this is not only am I okay spending my this is how I want to spend my time. I just answered an email on the way here of a meeting I have coming up this week helping parents make a certain decision for their family. And it begins with we're writing this email to tell you what it's about in case you don't think we need to meet because we know how valuable your time is. And I wrote back, there's nothing more I want to be doing with my time than than talking to you about this and helping you. We would never want people to think that we want to spend our time on other things. This is why we do and went into what we do. But how do we also sort of protect our time and where's that fine line between we're available, we're here, we want to help, but also there's some healthy boundaries. Don't don't abuse that. Don't overuse. >> And also protecting the people themselves from becoming overreiant. Meaning it's not it's not always emotionally healthy for us. It's also not always emotionally healthy for them if uh if the the only place they go whenever they have any any issue is the rabbi >> and let's be honest and I don't know if we want to take this conversation there. I feel comfortable because I think we're b to Torah and and it isn't the challenge but it could be you know there's a divorce abusive situation and there's a wife there's a woman she's WhatsAppapping it's voice notes it's calls it's text it's I'm filling you in you won't believe what just happened and I can't take this anymore and how do we both listen believe follow up but also that it's not late at night and you're on your phone and where are the boundaries when is it appropriate and how do you manage that without the person feeling I guess you're saying you're too busy for me I guess you're done you've done too much and how do you find the line for that and at least be struggling with it and have the awareness of it and whereas the rebbitson come in in not ever violating confidences or disclosing who someone is but also you know maintaining our phone and so on they're complicated things for rabbis to navigate >> I've thought about this a lot over the past number of years because there was a point where I would say and I think this is rabbi should say this I I'm I'm not qualified to be able to address this particular issue I don't have the training on other skills and so therefore I I have no choice but to sort to sort of refer you. I'm now at a point where there are certain situations that are coming my way as a rabbi and I could at least you know with some degree of credibility to say I am actually qualified to be able to deal with this as a clinician but and I would use a different word than boundaries but that's not my role here and if I forget that and it goes both ways by the way there are times where people come to see me as the therapist and I have to remind them I'm not a rabbi I am but that's not what you're getting here if I forget my role. So it's going to become very very complicated when it comes to besides the the ethical and just social boundaries Goldberg mentioned a therapist has the ability to be completely devoted dedicated to the client. Um and he or she is essentially my entire world for the purpose of this conversation. A rabbi doesn't have that luxury. If somebody comes to me and they're part of they always are a larger family system. So, the more I learn, the more it's going to be more complicated for me to be everybody else's rabbi. Um, if you put me in a position where I feel that I need to do something or I should do something, it's going to come at at at perhaps a a a cost. Um, and I and what's going to happen is slowly but surely, I'm no longer going to be able to really be to fulfill my role as your rabbi. You really really can't have it both. And so I agree with Rabbi Goverick said that sometimes we're not qualified. But I think especially when we feel that we are and the same is true if the rabbi is an accountant. We all know at least one I can think of one uh very successful rabbi. He was an accountant as well. I don't know what his policies was but I'm I'm hoping that he didn't do the tax returns of his balabatim because there there's going to be a point in time where that's just going to become too complicated >> fundraising efforts. Okay. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> I know you're not getting my answer. But speaking, you know, but speaking to everybody out there, I think it's important to realize that there may be there many situations where you want to come to your rabbi. But when your rabbi then holds your hand and refers you or says, I think that here's an individual who could best help you. Don't that shouldn't be felt as rejection. That's my rabbi doesn't care. You know, he has so much time for everybody in the world. It's just that that's not my role here. I want to continue to be again your friend, your neighbor, your educator, your mentor, your postake, the person you can come to in times of crisis. But I can't do all of that and really really you know immerse myself in this. >> I just want I just want to clarify I always refer to a professional. I never think that I'm trained or competent to do the counseling. I think people find in us in their rabbi someone who can maintain their confidence. Someone who can empathize or sympathize or understand because they do know the other people. Meaning often therapists which I refer to and admire and and believe in but they're really hearing one side. And I think there's even policies about not unless it's couples therapy meeting the other side if you have one particular as a client we they actually appreciate sort of see the whole system and that's what draws them even more to hear us. always with referring but then figuring out maybe my aversion is we we'd never want I would never want someone to say and I called the rabbi he handed me off he had no use for me he put up a wall because it was too many times I bothered him and I'm not saying you're suggesting we do that but which I would ask you like you I think you have a reputation that people in crisis know they come to you that you you handle them a lot of them probably not coincidentally end up at your doorstep why why do you think that is that people feel comfortable coming to you >> I don't think I have such your reputation. Um, maybe it's possibly because I'm younger than all of you and I haven't learned how to put up the proper boundaries yet. It could be. Um, I'll say I think the most important thing I've learned from my own parents who have been in the space, not as pulpit rabbis, but been in the space of rebbitic leadership for quite a long time, the most important thing that I've learned from my father is just to be real. Um just the other night there was someone who came to talk to me about a very preliminary um crisis that they felt they were having which really wasn't such a major crisis. For them obviously it was cuz it's overwhelming to them but they're just starting the process of infertility and they're you know trying to figure out what the next step should be and where they should go and who they should speak to. And it was it was a lot for them and I just burst out crying like sitting with them even though we've seen cases that are obviously much more severe and this is a couple that just got married and it's not it's nothing overwhelming just yet but they asked me why are you so overwhelmed and I I wasn't trying to hide. I I never try to hide that I'm shaking. I think being vulnerable and being real is totally uh acceptable and appreciated. And I told him, I said, 'I'll be honest. I just heard so many difficult things today and dealt with so many different um possibilities of hardships that people are going through. You happen to be the last person who's here today. It was 11:00 at night. It just, you know, at some point it gets to you. And I think showing people that were real and showing people that we really take to heart the situations that they share with us to me, I think is more powerful than anything else. I can say just I'm talking about my father, but I've been to so many Shiva homes with my father. He's not a big talker, not a big sch smoozer. And I find very often that he'll go into a shiva house, not say a word to anybody. And I feel very awkward. I feel very awkward being the one going with him and just sitting there and obviously I'm not going to speak if he's not speaking. And we leave. And so many people have told me subsequently that your father just sat there and cried with us. And that was worth more to us than any other visitors that we had. And I think that's an important role to play just to be that person who really feels and empathizes with other people's situations to understand that we really connect to it that we really relate to it that we appreciate the severity or the overwhelming nature of what it is for them. That's uh that's a very important piece of it. >> With your permission, could we maybe just take a step back over here? We're not talking to rabbis right now. We're talking to the people who would come to a rabbi. So, someone's going to be watching this and someone's going to say, "Okay, now if I ever become a rabbi, I now have a lot of good advice about how where my limits are and how to handle it." But there may be people watching that are going to say, you know, I wish I felt comfortable enough to talk to my rabbi. What do I need to do to develop the kind of relationship where if I were in crisis, I would be comfortable to go to my rabbi? even if it were a minor crisis, even if it were the beginning of something, how do I how do I pave that road to be able to make sure that that that avenue I mean I've spoken um in many places where I I'll quote Moriviakita referring to your father of course even though you're also a great rebi of mine but Morivita and and people will come over to me and say I don't I don't have a mori like I I don't have I don't have a rabbi I don't have a rebi so it do you um as rabbis on the other side do you have a forabat for people who want to be able to develop that relationship >> you said like any other relationship it's about investing for the time that you need the relationship I think that all of our most important relationships you know there are times when you're okay and you're you're at stasis and you're okay but you need to be investing in having those relationships I guess it's probably easiest to say about a friend um that uh you know if you continue to invest in a relationship over years then it's there for you when you need it. And it's not so much that the rabbi won't be there for you as as long as you're in the community even if you're not part of the community. We all have so many relationships with people who are not actually members of our sh. The rabbi will be there for you that you don't have to be concerned about. But it'll be much more meaningful if there already is a pre-existing relationship. And I think that the job of the rabbi, again going back to the rabbi, is to establish those interpersonal relationships. But I think people also need to invest in their relationship with the rabbi to find to be open when the rabbi uh invites people to come talk to them to to find opportunities to be with the rabbi even in downtime. Um because then the relationships, you know, will be there for you when when when you feel that you need comfort with God. The rabbi will be there, I think, either way. As a rabbi, I'll say that when people reach out to share very very small, seemingly insignificant developments in their life, they get a new job. Um, you know, I I very much appreciate when young men and women are going to Israel and they'll call me a day or two beforehand. I know you're very busy today, but you know, if we could just meet up for a minute or two, you know, I'd love I'd love a braha. I'm I'm not a rev that gives brahas but that two three minute interaction which sadly but I'm going to be honest very often I'm not the one to initiate I'll try to initiate I'm going to think about it more and more it's obvious more the obvious situations but when balabat when when men come over on Friday night after ding and say good shabas you know I know I'm speaking to you know people who make you know vahame you if you're doing that week after week after week and saying good shabas even even if that's all we're saying to one another our relationship slowly but surely is becoming stronger and stronger and stronger even if no words are exchanged. Um, and if that never happens, as Reb Pender said, that's okay. You know, you know, I'm still here for you. But, um, it it that investment doesn't mean that we have to, you know, get together for lunch every Tuesday. It really really doesn't. Uh, families can do that. Um, individual members within the family can do it. Rabbis interacting with children, uh, people different stages in life. These are all ways to sort of keep those relationships going. Uh, it's a very good point. It's sad that somebody said, "I don't have a rebi." Um, I'd like to think and rebuild >> to an only child, you know, an only child. It's not your choice. You don't have a sibling. You don't know what that relationship feels like. But this is your choice. I say you you can have a rebi you can have a rabbi. You just need to do that for yourself. >> So, let me ask a more difficult question. I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this. What if somebody says, I I did I did try, but I find that my rabbi is not available. he doesn't seem to have the sort of interest or commitment that I'm hearing on this panel. I mean, is that conceivable? I think so. >> Or I've come to discover over the last 5 years, both through Corona and then the war with Israel, that there are people who live in communities who their rabbi has said or participated in things that makes them just feel I I don't connect anymore. Um, and therefore, I don't want to go to them about my personal things if I don't connect to the way that they're interpreting more global things. and they feel lonely even within a community even paying a membership even showing up in shul they feel they feel lonely and and bereft of leadership some >> and I think that's important feedback for balabatam to give the rabbis because I know again we have to continue to remind ourselves that we're not talking to rabbis but I don't know if this is what you alluding to but if a rabbi is going to get up and and make some very you know partisan political partisan comments from the pulpit that may unintentionally or maybe intentionally marginalize certain individuals if that's how you're feeling and shu whether he's making comments about politics or anything. I think in respectful ways, rabbis would appreciate that sort of feedback. I would um worst case scenarios, he won't listen. He'll he'll dismiss it. But if he does take it to heart, I love critical feedback. I don't get enough of it. I love it. And then we can adjust and then we can say, you know, maybe my messaging on global issues is h is having the unintended consequence of making people feel that I'm not relatable or they can't connect with me. That would be a terrible price to pay. I don't think rabbis would do that intentionally. I think this really aligns with our host Amudim and the purpose of this conversation is there are resources and and it is it's a shame if people would hesitate or feel not welcome. I hope that the people listening and watching know whether they're immediate local rabbi or there are others but there are people who care and who have experience and who have connections. One of the most enriching part I find of the Rabonas is our rolodex for young people listening. That means the contact information of other people. But but sometimes we can make one phone call or send one text that connects somebody that is a lifecher for them and took us 5 seconds. The gratitude almost feels undeserved because all it took was like a text. Can you see that person in your office they can't get through? Can you take on this case? Can you? But we're here. I mean rabbis are here. And until your rabbi proves otherwise, give them the benefit of the doubt. Don't complain about that if you've never tried. Ask them if you can have coffee. Meet them for lunch. Ask for an appointment. Linger after shul and say hello. Show up at a which becomes community within community and builds. Go on a trip if a trip is advertised. Not everybody can. But that's exactly where those relationships are formed. And you have to put the time in in advance so it'll be there for you when you'll need it. And this is not the point of our conversation. And I probably will regret and get in trouble for saying it. uh the enormous growth of domining opportunities that don't include rabbis, which may be convenient and comfortable in the short term, but in the long term, when you may need a rabbi for a life cycle event, a significant question, a crisis, if that's where you've placed your your lot, you've chosen comfort and convenience over relationship and community will still be there. I think we'll still be there, but it the nature of it is going to be different. I agree with you 100% and uh I definitely won't get in trouble for saying this at this point in my career. So, I'm going to say it. The number of people over the past several months who have commented to me more to my wife um you will always be our rabbi >> uh for I'm planning on being aliyah this summer. Bezos Hashem um and continuing to serve in some capacity as a rabbi, but it'll be different. Uh and on the one hand, we appreciate that very much when people say you'll always be a rabbi. There will be other rabbis. Hopefully I'll have a wonderful successor who will be even better rabbi. Wonderful. But in some of these situations, these are people who have we you know they haven't dedul in in years and I know that they mean it and on the one hand that but but it also leaves us sort of wondering what does it mean for you that we will always be a rabbi and on the one hand thank you. Thank you very much. But wouldn't our relationship be so much more enriching enriching mutually if we spent more time with one another? But if if you're dabbing in your neighbor's backyard, every shabas, what am I to do? >> So what I'm hearing is if we're trying to advise people on how to get the most out of your rabbi, how to get the most out of the relationship, your relationship with your rabbi. So the first thing is to create a relationship to have touch points. I also want to highlight something Rabbi Goldberg said before that you got an email in anticipation of a meeting coming this week. How many times I'll get an email that will say need to talk, right? And I don't know if they're about to attack me for something I said in a drussia or if their kid is on drugs or if it could be any and I and I have no way to mentally prepare for that meeting. So I I would also advise people if you want to get the most out of your meetings with your rabbis or with anybody for that matter, but I could only speak from a rabbitic perspective, give like a little bit of a hint, like a little bit of a clue um going through >> if you have compassion for your rabbi because it's not only it's not only >> but also you want to be able to you want him to be able to help you, >> right? But even aside from that, like you're it's the compassion like you don't know. >> Tell me what it's about so I'm not imagining and and anxious over things that never happened. So, >> I always get I always feel like I'm being called to the principal's office. Anytime someone outside, I always feel like I said something that offended somebody. I'm going to get fired. I like I always feel like something like I must have done something terrible. And usually it's not the case. I think that even if it's not that the four of you are sitting Shaw rabbis uh sitting and your SH rabbis um but um even if it doesn't happen to be a Shaw rabbi, there are cases where it could be someone else in your life. It's not necessarily the person who happens to be at the shore that you do in or used to do in but that need of having one person that really understands you that can be there for you is absolutely critical. I mean, we're speaking about Israel that very often doesn't exist in Israel where a lot of the functions, a lot of the hahic issues, a lot of the day-to-day Jewish functions are handled by the government or by a larger mechanism, but it doesn't allow for that connection with the rabbi. And there are many reasons why the Israeli society may have developed that way, but I think it's it it's something that is still missing to a large extent within uh Israeli society. and that people really need to have somebody who gets them and knows them. The concept that uh that uh when a person is sent to an ear miklat their rebby has to go and be with them. Doesn't mean that the the ar miklot didn't have their own but they metish uh but your rebi has to go with you. I mean I feel bad for that rebi it's a separate question but but the fact to have someone there in your life who really knows who understands you and can suggest that people push you forward. Listen, it's also true in terms of where you're getting your Torah from. We have individuals in this circle to whom thousands and thousands of people get their Torah by listening to them, which is beautiful, which is beautiful, but it's not exactly the same thing as getting Torah from someone in a group of 10. So, listen to your dafomi, listen to your shir, listen to the podcast. Uh, that's great. That should supplement someone who you're actually learning with in a in a personal way. and in a real way because that community that you spoke about, that community of learning that really can't be created with all of these uh with all these amazing opportunities to learn uh with other people online. Um because without that connection with the rabbi um I feel most people don't take their next steps forward and certainly when you're in a crisis, you don't have that person that you know that that that you need by your side. >> Can we pivot? I I would love to listen and learn from your perspective on um many most rabbis, they sit in the front, they look out and they know something about almost everybody in that room that everyone else in the room doesn't know. And that's a privilege and it's an honor. It's without judgment. It's only with love. It's to have been through situations. Um but it's a lot to carry. We were talking before we started recording about and the notion that when we lose our innocence because we're exposed to things we need to react minimally not even being exposed to to scandal but just bearing the burden of carrying a lot of confidences pain you were talking about before feeling the pain that end of the day overwhelming and and crying with emotion vari cries at the first meeting of the day and throughout the day which is not a criticism of It's it's a description of his greatness. At the opening meeting of the day, he's already he's already crying. What do you do to balance that out? Both balance it out from the mental hygiene, mental health perspective to be able to stay healthy even while carrying all that pain, all that burden, all those confidences. And what do you do also, it's a second question, a parallel one. What do you do to balance out having been exposed to things that generally benetra are working hard to not learn or listen or see or hear directly testimony about and we do without judgment and with love but still need to sort of protect our nama in some way. How do you handle both of those things? >> I'll respond uh partially. I think it's important for us also I know we're not talking to an audience of rabbis but we are talking amongst ourselves. We need to continue to have people who we look up to as well. And the same way Rabi was saying before that is important for every community member. I think it's important that rabbis also say have their own people who they can turn to who really are living a life that when I look at that I can be reminded there is purity in the world. I can be reminded that there is something very pristine and very perfect that is untainted and there are very few places where we can find that but we all know that we can find that somewhere. To me that's always a a big source of of comfort and clarity. Um I'll say also just personally everybody has their own dynamics in their own home. My wife and I talk about obviously without disclosing details but we happen to work as a team very often and we discuss a lot of the situations that are going on obviously with the permission of the individual who's coming but we go on walks together a lot and we discuss this and I I feel to me that is a a very healthy way that we sort of uh lower the tension but also try to remind ourselves how serious of a situation it is and brainstorm and try to figure out how we can be involved and handholding and where it is appropriate, where it's not. Also, in all of our communities, we have so many mental health professionals and to use them as a tremendous aid to all of us is something that we've all done and something that even I personally have called a mental health professional and said, you know, this is how I felt after somebody told this to me. I'm curious, is that a normal reaction? Like maybe I'm misunderstanding, maybe I'm not understanding them, maybe I'm not understanding myself. Sometimes you just need that reassurance. No, no, no. That is totally appropriate. But I think the collaboration of the mental health community together with the rabbitic leaders of many of our communities is such a beautiful new um wave of of possibilities that we've seen and it's so helpful. I'm sure all of us have had situations where a mental health professional will call us and say, you know, I did this. I want you to step in. Can you do that? Maybe someone can can speak to that. But that collaboration I think is extremely powerful because we're coming at it from different angles but we're working together to be as supportive and as helpful as we can be. I'm reminded of uh one of my favorite varts on the Assariona. Some of the rishonum say the last test that Aram faced was not the aa but it was purchasing a burial plot for Sarah and having to deal with Ephron. And uh the question is obvious. The aada seems to be the ultimate. You know, people haggle over burial plots and prices and get taken advantage of all the time. And I don't remember where I heard it, but someone suggested this was the first time that going into the test, Araminu knew that at the end of the day, he was not going to be able to come home and say, "Sah, you're not going to believe the day I just had." And to be able to go through that test knowing that he wasn't going to have Sarah at the end of the day. knowing at the aada at least he thought she would be there but knowing that she wasn't going to be there for him to emote to unload. I I can't break down in front of everybody all the time, but there's at least one person that I can be completely comfortable breaking down in front of. And it's similar to what Rab Shak just shared about having a rebi having that, you know, that that pristine, you know, sense of purity and someone that you can turn to and also a a wife, a family that you know that you can find comfort in, you know, you can turn to. and also everyone sitting in the circle I've turned to in in different uh in in different times where I know that you you get me in a way that other people can't possibly going through a tragedy in the community and when you have an entire shul that is mourning all at the same time. What does that feel like? No one else can understand that except for the people sitting in the circle and people like us. And there's tremendous um comfort in being able to to draw that from one another. >> Something I'm very proud of that we do at REITs, uh Rabbi Penner gets uh really all the credit for being sort of the the the the trailblazer in this regard. We have what we call processing sessions with our students which is awkward for all of them in the beginning but we we put a a tremendous emphasis on the importance of talking actually in circles like we're doing right now. After we go through at least simulations, role plays of some very intense topics and at first it seems like a waste of time. Why are we doing this? What's the purpose? But um we we emphasize this is important because these are muscles you really need to learn to flex right now. There are going to be certain experiences that you're going to have that you're going to need to talk about it. Not necessarily everyone and not necessarily with the people in this room, but you have to get used to that that discomfort about talking about how does this make me feel? I don't know. I'm very excited about this. I'm very upset about this. I'm very and and to be able to, you know, to develop a greater sense of awareness as to what I'm feeling. To be able to talk about that, uh, this is something that's built in structurally within the world of mental health counseling. Certainly on a training level which can last many years with supervision. Rebies aren't required to have supervisors. Again, you want to call it a rebi, you want to call it, you want to call it a wife, all the above and more. But this is necessary. This is necessary. So, one thing I'll mention as well, and that is I was just thinking about this recently, Rabbi Goldberg is correct. When we look out, we see we see all again sort of all those secrets, you know, the all the pain of so many people in front of us. But there's something else we see as well. And you know where I'm going with this. And as we see all the the strength and the resilience as well. Dr. Dr. Pelovich who's a mentor to all of us you know did a has most of his training I think and his his professional experience was in trauma work but he spoke a lot always about this what he called it um post-traumatic growth vicarious resilience and we always talk about the vicarious trauma the rabbis mental health professionals emergency responders that they endure when they're dealing with you know some unimaginable crisis but there's something else that can and often does evolve and that is a tremendous sense of of resilience, of strength. And people often say to me, "How do you deal with this? You see people you go to so many funerals. It's true. I go to so many funerals, but I also see people come back from the darkest of places. People who I would think to myself, how is your life ever going to be normal again and be able to slowly but surely move move forward. We get an inside, you know, perspective on that as well. And there's there's a balance there. But, uh, I'm not I can I can go for another hundred years. I'm not close to burnout and I don't want to put anyone on the spot but I would be shocked if anybody here would say otherwise. There's tremendous in this work despite all the pain. >> I agree. I say that all the time being at the bedside of even a young person in Shalom who's terminally ill is not what drains the energy that energizes being able to comfort and give strength and guide and seeing the resilience in people. It's it's maybe a topic for another podcast or conversation, but it's the sh politics or it's the text that says I do need to let you have it about your certain like those are the things that drain the energy. I think people get that wrong. Rabbi, how do you do it? There's so I'm like, no, those are the things that that's why I went into this. That's what gives me meaning and purpose. It's the other things. So, your other conversations with me, that's what's draining me of the energy. So, I agree. It strikes me that we're talking about um sort of balabatum or community members putting in the time to get to know their rabbi for when they'll need it. But in hearing the descriptions about what the rabbi needs, that also takes preparation. Knowing that you have a rebi and working hard to have a rebi and a rebi that you'll have for life. Having ara and having colleagues of and raanu are your friends that you can count on and lean on in dating. I don't know students or those who are dating. Looking for a wife who can be a partner and source of strength and confidant and on these things. These are all critical to have lined up before the rabbi goes through his own particular crisis. you know your story about about calling um or a therapist to say is this a normal reaction many years ago someone in the community had had taken their own life and people didn't know that and and I did and I'll never forget to this moment um officiating the funeral and looking down at them and thinking in my mind what the rest of the people gathered had no idea but essentially like how how could you do this to your children to your wife understanding obviously it's the result of of mental illness with no judgment but I was a much younger rabbi who had much less understanding of those issues then and and I was haunted haunted by that question and haunted like how how could this happen? How could he do this? And I spoke to a professional and I think it's important to take away the stigma to say that we support and we believe in it. And they said to me, if you could understand it, you'd be capable of it. The fact that you can't understand it is is actually a reflection of you're being healthy and so stop trying to understand or explain or relate to it um in that way. And that that was enormously helpful to me that actually let me let go of that. And again it it was a very immature and sophisticated understanding I had. It was much earlier my rabbin. I was younger and these topics were discussed much less. Not that I think I have an expertise now on it. But absolutely there should be no stigma rabbis or others to lean on people who are professionals when we need it to help us guide through these through these times. >> I think I think you also realize over time that it's it's a harsh reality to realize. My wife says that the only thing she absolutely loved being a rabbitson all the years. And she said that the only thing that she regrets about or didn't like about being a rabbitson was that she thought a certain naive a certain way of looking at the world was shattered over the years. Not because people were bad people, but just because there's so much out there. And when you sit and you face the the shawl, the rabbitson at least faces forward. the rabbi in many of our shawls has to face the shawl and you're looking out and and you just realize so I think that there is a learning curve for a rabbi where you realize that crisis is the norm crisis really is the norm that many many families in the shore at any given time are going through a difficult situation there are so many uh levers or so many potential potholes along the way that's what life is and I think at a certain point in my rabbanas I began to I realized that that's really what life is about. Life is about the particular challenge that each person was given. Um we've certainly had in our life a number of very unexpected detours along the way. And to realize that those detours, that's really what life is about. So I think that at a certain point we went from a place where we looked out and we saw all of this difficulty and all of this challenge and we began to see it as all of these different tough in life that what people saw was something that was taking them away from what they were supposed to be doing was very much as difficult as it is and as little as we understand why we have a certain tapid and why to suddenly see an army of people in front of us who were given very different tidim to try to serve in those kinds of ways. And I think that over time we moved from a place where we said, I wish I didn't know about all of this. I wish I didn't realize how much challenge there was, how much pain there is to realizing that at at least we're in a position, we're lucky that we're in a position that we can be there. It's not ours to finish or to fix or to to be there to the end. There are many organizations like Ammudum and others who have the kinds of abilities to take situations to a place where we we can't do it. But to almost feel privileged that that that that that that's to to be able to play play a role in these people's lives and to be able to play a role in their tough once we began to realize that the challenges that they were facing the unique challenge of this household and that household and that household again wasn't something that was taking them away from but was there to grapple with this kind of situation in their life and to feel like we could be on that journey with them. So it took a lot of the pain and it sort of gave it meaning and gave it it gave it purpose and to feel like somehow we were uh a a partner or we were somehow encouraging or supporting someone in the struggle that their life was about that became very very energizing for us and in many ways we're not a shabbre anymore but we feel that with many of the families that we deal with on many levels. >> Can I highlight just one more point? I'm sure we're wrapping up, but I think this is very important for um for people who aren't rabbis. Uh you now heard that rabbis deal with a lot that we love to help. It's why we believe God put us on this earth to try to help people. No matter how with it your rabbi is, no matter how in touch he is with the people in the shul, no matter the size of the shul, there's no way that he's aware of everything. And it's very important for all of us to have eyes and ears on the ground. And if you're aware of someone in the shul in the community that's going through something um and you're you're not sure even if if it might be if you're not 100% sure that the person is getting the rabbitical help is getting the use tell the rabbi and and you know what 90% of the time he'll say I'm aware I'm on top of it thank you so much and 10% of the time he'll say oh wow I I didn't know thank you so much because we need it we need the help to to know where to where to help. We have to we need the direction. >> Absolutely. >> Should we end the way we began by thanking Ammudim and encouraging everybody to support? We rely as Raban Manamudim. They play an enormous role in the community. They're a resource for the things that well beyond our training and uh skill set. So we thank Amudim and we thank you for your partnership and help in supporting Amuim and I feel so honored and privileged to have the support system for me and to listen and to learn to all of you. So thank you for this opportunity. Thank you. >> Thank you. >> Thank you everyone. [music] >> [music]