I Caught My Kid… Now What? | Rabbi Avi Landa & Shaya Sussman

parent. I walk into my house and all of a sudden I find I caught my kid. >> You don't have to react instantly. Strike when the iron is cold, not hot. The reason why they're hiding is because they really feel ashamed. Okay, you're the parent you get caught, but I'm the child and I'm suffering also. Right. The implied message is is I don't trust you. And we become reactive parents instead of responsive parents. Here's an opportunity like you were saying, transformation, not amputation. I want to say yes whenever I can. In your anger, remember your compassion. Right. Hello everybody. Today I'm Shai Susman and today I'm joined with Ravi Landau to talk about sometimes we're in situations with our children, we don't know how to handle it. And as we were preparing for this uh conversation that we're going to have, what we decided to talk about today is I'm I'm a parent and I caught my child dot dot dot. Now fill in the blank. Often we're leaving it dot dot dot specifically because the things that we're going to talking about regardless of the behavior, regardless of what you caught them doing, so to speak, a lot of this is going to be the same as transferable. So we might jump around from different examples today about the parents reaction the child's reaction kind of the dos and don'ts you know the experience of the parent and the child separately but uh I want the listener I want the viewer to really understand to go beyond the examples over here apply it to your own life and this is kind of just a template if that makes any sense so I'm just going to start off going to ask Rabbi a question over here I'm a parent. I walk into my house and all of a sudden I find I caught my kid and he apparently he had a cell phone that I didn't know about. So as the parent, what do I do? How do I navigate this? What might I be feeling? You can take me through that. Okay. Thank you so much Shia. It's a pleasure to be here together with my good friend Roshaya Susman and colleague and yeah look every time we are surprised about something that we find out regarding our child it is something that's going to invoke various feelings in ourselves. And so two initial thoughts come to mind. One is it's normal for there to be some level of shock. This is a person. This is a child who you understand and you expect and you assume you have a close relationship with. And one of the defining factors and features of a close relationship is that there's transparency, openness, and honesty. And not that there's something significant being hidden from the parent. So there's going to naturally be an initial feeling of shock. When it comes to shock, we have to know our own, and everyone's different, our own response to shock, to surprise. That's uncomfortable. Some people react with uh anger and frustration. Why was I placed into this very uncomfortable situation? It's your fault. And that's not going to be helpful. What we want to do is we want to prepare ourselves in our own minds that life is going to throw us curveballs and there will be moments of shock with whatever relationship it is and it may be with a child. And if we kind of mentally prepare for that then when the shock comes it will be less a reflex reaction without thought and consideration and more something that like oh there's that feeling and the first thing to do is simply to just give yourself time. You don't have to react instantly. Just give yourself time. The only comment that needs to be said at the moment of catching them and certainly if the child finally and eventually decides to admit and come to you and say, "Hey, this is what's been going on for the last two weeks or two months >> or five years >> and they let you is all you need to do is again if they told you, thank you so much for telling me. we need some time to process this and I'm going to get back to you. Or uh if you catch it to simply say, "Wow, oh, I didn't know this was happening. Um, I'm going to need to talk to you more about this later." And by the way, if you catch it, which often is the case, and they don't know that you caught it yet, then there's a whole another layer to this, which is should you immediately confront the child? Should you give it some time? Should you investigate a little bit further for some time before? But when confronting, you want that uh ally of time on your side where you do not react reflexively in a way that just pushes the child off and never will they'll ne if they didn't admit to you, they certainly won't in the future. And if they did admit to you, they're not going to want to admit to you in the future. So that's kind of the first point. Prepare to be able to react with some level of coolheadedness and not with anger and frustration, which is not going to help the situation at all. And you'll always have the opportunity to then reach out, get more resources, resources, some of which will come to from today's conversation to be able to respond well in the future when the uh that initial shock wears off. As Dr. David Pelovitz often says, strike when the iron is cold, not hot. And so that's the first thing that I would say. And the other point that I would put in to this is you may think, well, maybe it's better not to confront the child at all. Just kind of let's live our own lives here and not bring it out to the forefront. One of the biggest dangers and unhealthy aspects of a child doing something and being involved in something that's really not good for them, not healthy for them and inappropriate materials, etc. is besides for the unhealthiness psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually of whatever they're engaged in and physically of whatever they're engaged in, but also the fact that there is this double life that the child is experiencing where I live my life one way in front of my parents who are the people that are there for me hopefully the most out of anyone in the world and should be of the closest relationships I have. And I live my life differently when it comes to other people or or other scenarios or when I'm in private by myself in my bedroom. And that itself just that double life is the source of a lot of stress and aggravation and unhealthy psychological constructs for the child and therefore yes in the right way with patience and with guidance. So Shia what are your thoughts on what are your thoughts on those ideas? Well, I would like to actually like to take the kids perspective for a little bit. And of course, everything when you find your child doing something, of course, you know, where do I begin? Where do I start? I thought I knew this child. The questions, the experiences as as we're talking about, but I think it's important also to reframe as I busted my kid or I caught my kid. I I catched him, you know, or whatever it is. I think it's really important to hone in on the experience of the child. You know, often when a child feels like they have to hide certain behaviors. Every day I hear in my practice, you know, how long was, you know, whether it was pornography use or whether it was cell phone or whether it was shabas breaking or whether it was some sort of sneaking thing that they felt they had to hide. The reason why they're hiding is because they really feel ashamed. There's a tremendous amount of shame that happens and they feel I'll be judged if I tell my parents or my parents won't understand or often they're struggling with these things weeks, months, years prior for it to being revealed. And sometimes even this is not in every case it's not uncommon that I'll hear almost from uh someone who got caught and they end almost like a feeling of relief like like now I could speak about it with someone you know because what happens is as you were mentioning like the gap between the inner and the outer world becomes bigger. So the more a person shame grows in secrecy. So the more person has to go into hiding like you were saying Rababi the person they wind up living a double life you know and in that split that happens so that's where the pain is means okay you're the parent you got caught but I'm the child and I'm suffering also right like I'm also like caught in this thing how many times have I tried getting rid of it or circumventing it or hiding my vape and trying to quit and all different sorts of things so the child themselves is really really struggling and it's important to see that it's not necessar necessarily coming from I'm going to be deviant, you know, it's just the child feels forced into hiding and they're ashamed of what they're doing and they're they themselves are struggling. >> Yeah, I love what you're saying. I would I would encourage parents to consider the fact that the greatest predictor for both protective layers that would make it less likely for your child to engage in some of these more secretive unhealthy activities and as well as if they do and they get wrapped up in it which can come from many different places simply from curiosity. In fact, many times I'll just speak on pornography for a second. I will be speaking to a boy and I'll ask them do you remember the first time you look and they'll tell me it was fifth grade, sixth grade, seventh grade, whatever it was and I'll ask them and what was your thought? What was your feeling at that time? They will say it was disgusting. I said and then what happened and they'll say well I was like wo there's this whole world that I never knew about that like parents didn't tell me about my don't tell me about. It's like this whole universe that's like this hidden world that I never knew about. So in other words what they're describing is very intense curiosity and curiosity is what brings them back and then as kazal described it through hairgill and mitora that when you repeat the aera over and over when in psychology we talk about it as habituation it becoming more like a habit so we end up becoming desensitized and over time it starts to become less disgusting less shocking and actually then pleasure can set in and it can start to grow even into an addictive cycle of seeking uh that that dopamine rush. So, we want to be able to kind of put ourselves in our child's shoe and understand, wo, okay, let me empathize with my child. This is how it may have started. This is how it kind of got out of hand. And I want to be there for them. And the greatest predictor for the child is a positive growthoriented constructive relationship with their parents. That doesn't mean that there's no discipline or no filters and other protective layers that now the parents are going to make sure to institute and you know nothing inside your bedroom and only in public spaces and all the different wonderful you know ideas. That's not the topic for today but those can come like I said before in time. time is your ally when things are much more calm, cool, and collected. And when the overarching feeling in the room is, I love you and I care about you and I just want to help you live a healthy life and that's why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. That message will not go unnoticed by the child, >> right? The I, you know, as you're talking, it's coming to me. I had someone in my office earlier today a session I did the chair right over there and this topic of actually I got caught by you know he got caught the he got caught at a young age he was looking at pornography and his father busted him and when he was telling me we're we were going inwards we were doing we were doing deeper work today and he the way he said to me he's like I got he goes I was watching porn and I got caught watching porn and my father caught me like the emphasis was on. Not that I was watching porn, but my father gave me a look, you know, and and I noticed like the emphasis of his work. I'm like, so it's not so much that you were watching at a young age. I noticed your emphasis was on my father, you know, my father gave me this look of disgust. He said to me, you know, and I just caught on that nuance and I and I reflected that back to him like, your father caught was is it more that you were watching or was more that you got caught by your father, you know, and it was just interesting. Now, there's no judgment on the father. Obviously, that's like like you were saying before, shock, right? The father was shocked. The father walked out on his kid. He thought one thing, something else was going on, right? And the father was was caught by surprise. And that's a totally it's not to shame the parent or or blame the father in any way, shape, or form, you know? But the thing that made the impact on that he remembers many years later into his young adulthood is this attachment piece. this thing that that I disappointed my father and he was disgusted with me. So the message that got internalized just by way of consequence, just by way of being and not by anyone's fault was that I broke my father's trust. I'm a no good person, right? I'm not trust I'm alone. Right. And like you're saying before like that moment of pause like you were said from Dr. Pelquist this line of uh strike while the irons cult. It's understandable on the father's point too. Like I I don't know if I would have a different reaction like you're just taken so off guard per se. But at the same time that piece of attachment and the broken attachment that ensues afterwards when when when the parent looks at the child with disgust. That's like you're saying am I does the child feel I'm solely there for you? That's the thing that really made the impact was that look of disgust. And he was struggling. The the kid himself was struggling. The young adult when he was he was struggling himself. He he wanted help but he didn't feel that he was able to turn to anyone. He didn't even know what he was doing. >> Yeah. Wow. Very well said. I think this would still be under this general topic. I think it definitely something that parents ask all the time when it comes to these different topics. I'm curious what you would say. We can we can list a whole bunch of topics of what a parent may catch their child doing or being engaged with. Is there ever a time where parents should say could say maybe I should allow some of this under kind of my supervision under my watch as opposed to just continuously fight to figure out how to not allow the child to engage in this at all. Right. Well, this is first of all it's a really good question. It's a very nuanced question. This comes up all the time. As a child searches for authenticity, how much do you permit? How much do you not permit? you know and at what cost is your relationship with him as well. So in my view of things, I see the attachment and the relationship as as paramount. Like good parenting is good relationships, good attachments, healthy bonds and healthy bonds obviously require boundaries as well, right? But sometimes what happens is the uh parents are so rigid and unforgiving in a kind of relentless type of way, even well-meaning, but there's no give, right? So again, it's this is case by case thing, you know, but if your child is watching anyways and now you're taking away everything that they have from them and you're locking them up and they're tying up their hands. So like you're forcing your child into hiding. So now what do you do? How do you handle that? And the the thing that I'd also say on top of this and I wonder what you have to say about this, you know, which is like sometimes when we're like lock up everything for our kids and this goes beyond technology, but what is the implied message, right? Which I believe is ultimately can be more damaging. The implied message is is I don't trust you and you're not to trust yourself. You know, so often through osmosis, unintentionally, subconsciously, the message that gets passed down to the child is when everything's tied up and nothing's allowed and it's extremely rigid, you know, or they really can't get their way. And really, they might need a little bit more leeway in certain areas, the implied message is is I don't trust you and you're not to be trusted. So, the child ultimately doesn't learn to trust yourself. And I believe that belief that the child uh gains is actually in the long run more damaging and detrimental than the little bit of extra time they would spend or the more certain allowances or leniencies that you would permit you know. So it's again it's a this is this I would say is a case by case thing when to push when to stop you know but the adult in in the bigger picture of of do I really trust my kid right and that goes back to the belief in the child right do I really trust my kid or am I always trying to circumvent everything that they're going to be doing and through osmosis teaching them they're they're fragile you can't trust yourself you know and you're not to be trusted like when can a like when can a person say on themselves I trust myself you know or is it forever you're not allowed to trust yourself? Like when are you when has a person believed on themselves to say that? Thank you. Thank you. Fabulous. I want to comment first on the thing on the one of the last things you said about trusting in your child. It is appropriate for there to be a seessaw of trust levels depending on how your child is behaving. If the child makes once in a while of not great decision, it's few and far between. We don't need to start losing trust and communicating loss of trust to our children. It's part of growing up. We make mistakes. We learn from our mistakes. I'm going to quote Dr. Pavitz a few more times. Go from setback to feedback. Whenever you are dealing with one of these types of situations where a mistake is made, we're not going to sit and dwell being set back by the mistake. We're going to utilize it as feedback to be able to improve and do better for the future. That's what it's all about. It's a positive messaging of how do we learn from our mistakes and build ourselves up and grow for the future, not bash ourselves down and dwell in the past. So at the same time there are cases where the child is making some recurring and repetitive not great decisions and unhealthy decisions and even with warnings and even with some attempts to approach it from a very positive place there's still this consistent unhealthy decisionm process going on and at a certain point it makes sense for the parent to communicate. Yes, there has been some loss of trust in your judgment and in your decision-m capability. However, trust is something that can always be earned back in the same way that it's gone down recently based on some of recent decisions behaviors. It can go up in the near future for you to be able to make up for it. And there's there's different ways to do that, right? At the same time, they're children, so they're still kind of developing. The point is that even if we need to distance them a little bit more from certain challenges because they seem to be particularly weak in their ability to have self-control in those areas, we can still give them other areas where we show them we absolutely trust you. So, a kid who is really struggling with looking at pornography as an example and he's 17 years old and he has a license doesn't mean that we should be using a consequence which is totally not a natural conse of well now you can't drive anymore. >> That is it really in the bedroom that mostly is the most problematic area with a device. So you want to maybe you shouldn't have your own device and maybe you should only use a family device or maybe your device should always be out of the room and it should be plugged in in the kitchen and you shouldn't be going to sleep at night with it in your bedroom etc etc because you don't have a lot of trust there and it's a weakness of yours but I'm going to purposely go out of my way to show you that I trust you as a trustworthy person in the areas in which I don't see the lack of trust. So go drive, go take your siblings where they need to go. Pick something up for me. don't come back too late but it's okay if you come back a little late and you know all these things where I maybe even want to make up for it a little bit. So that's one thing on the trust on the overarching idea that you were I think hinting to which is in general when it comes to and raising our children how much exposure should we be giving our children and how much sheltering should we be giving our children and the argument of course for sheltering is simply we don't want them to be exposed to these things. I if we could take a child and lock them in a room and have a little slit in the door and feed them and there's a bathroom, you know, the prison cell model, then of course they'll never struggle with pornography and they'll never struggle with vaping and they'll never struggle with alcohol and they'll never struggle with with anything because everything is locked up. >> On the other hand, the argument for exposure is, well, one day they're going to leave your home and that's not how they're going to live. And of course, that's not a healthy way to live anyway. And so we want to make sure that they're exposed and they can gain good understanding even if it's through some mistakes of what to do, what not to do, and how to handle life, how to cope with their emotions, and how to make good decisions. And it's only through exposure that you can really teach them that firsthand. So to that I say from Dr. Palitz, which is procrastination and inoculation. So we want to procrastinate how fast we give our children certain abilities that require self-control, like a smartphone. We do not want to rush that process. And as soon as the child says, "But everyone in my class has it." You can make a few calls and usually find out. >> It's not fair. Everyone has one. It's not fair. >> Exactly. Usually out. It's a couple of kids that have it. But the point is that procrastination, we don't want to rush into these things. But when it's time, we also don't want to delay further inoculation. We want to use it in in a form of an inoculation where we're giving it in proper doses. We're not over giving it just oh don't oh take it whatever I'm not going to look you do whatever you want there's still going to be some level of restriction but some level of allowance and like shai you said it's going to be a balancing act that's going to be different for every kid in every community with each of their parents working together with guidance from rabanim from mentors from therapists from professionals to better educators to be able to make the right decisions for them so that's the overarching you know when it comes to the the original question I asked for specific topics. I think we could agree, let's just say for a second, that heroin would be something that we wouldn't say like, okay, you could do it once in a while. There is going to be a category of things where it's just so damaging for the person. We want to do everything we can to try to avoid it completely and to try to do what we can to help the child not get engaged in with it completely. I would not put pornography in the same category as heroin, certainly on a physical level, but on a psychological level, viewing pornography, real pornographic materials. by the way, we got to make sure we got our turns right. If he's really looking at he or she is really looking at real hardcore pornography, that has a negative impact on the brain. We have to recognize that it's not just it's spiritually as well, of course, but it's not only spiritual, it's psychologically and and there that way physically as well. There's a whole website out there that is completely non-religious. It's simply driven by science called fight thenewdrug.org. >> And just listen to the title. will fight the new drug. It creates unhealthy dopamine cycles. It has ill effects on the ability to have a successful marriage and a happy marriage in all different types of ways. But not just for the future, even in the here and now, it really can hijack the brain. So, we have to recognize that. And that is in distinction from let's say some rated R movie that has a love in the middle that is not it can t start to tap into that on a much lighter level but it's still and it's something that parents need to parent about for sure but it's still not at all in the same category as as viewing hardcore pornography which is very much should be treated like the drug that it is. It just enters the brain through the eyes, >> right? It's it's you know there's different levels of risk, right? I say green, medium, red, you know, the different levels of risk category. Where is it where does it fall out? And you're mentioning I mean there's so much to talk about when it comes to pornography. But one thing that you're bringing to mind is like when a parent catches their kid or something, you know, I don't even like the word catch, like the villain like I caught you like Batman and you know, catching someone or Spider-Man catching an evil is, you know, when when you happen upon your child might be a better way to say it. when they become aware right when they become aware I think that there's a uh one of the questions we need to ask ourselves and we do this as clinicians Robi which is what don't we know right like you don't know what you don't know right and I think that's one of the values of going to a therapist again depending on the risk I'm not saying everything requires psychological intervention you know but one of the things that you want to be aware of is like again you don't know what you don't know so what what But what is he not telling me? What is she not telling me? What don't I know? What are these all these assumptions? And I think, oh, the cell phone, the vape is it, right? But I didn't know about the cell phone and I didn't know about this and I didn't know about that. I didn't know about this. I don't know about that. And often when I have children in my office or young adults in my office and they were brought either for pornography use or something other that they got they got busted for whatever it is, right away I say, "Well, what else? What don't we know? What else are you not telling me you know about the cigarettes?" And there's a whole mental checklist of things to kind of go down and like, "Oh yeah, that too. Oh yeah, that one also. Oh yeah, that one too. Oh yeah, okay. I was thinking about that. What do you think about that?" You know, you get into a whole conversation about it. But I think it's important to know that like depending on the parents reaction, are you going to force your child into hiding more? Right? Because here's an opportunity for transformation, right? Here's an opportunity like you were saying, transformation, not amputation. Right? Here's a here's a here's here's I once heard in the name of BB Netanyahu. I'm not going to get into politics, but he said, "Never let a good crisis go to waste." You know, so if there's a crisis happening and something's happening, here's an opportunity for realness. Here's an opportunity for authenticity. Here's an opportunity for rupture and repair, for strengthening the bond, for education, getting someone help if they're in need of help. You know, >> I don't know what age the viewers are, but even at a younger age of parenting, consider that the way in which you're interacting with the child now is in all likelihood going to shape a lot of the way in which they're going to react with your grandchildren. >> Right. Right. Meaning to say, are you saying that the way they were parented, they're now going to parent on to their children? Right. >> So if becoming aware of something it it triggers like you said I love that line amputation uh as opposed to what did you say >> transformation not amputation >> transformation and not amputation it but if if it leads to amputation in the relationship and a decrease in the quality of the relationship and all that that is likely how they're going to parent their own children where >> actually I I would maybe challenge you on this. I wonder about this. Like what I find is that like people often do the opposite of their parents, you know, like if you had a really strict parent, they're like can be super permissive always. It can be I'm not disagreeing with you. Like it definitely can be like the way you were raised, you pass that on. You know, >> the point is that either way it's it if it's the way I would say it more in general terms in not getting into the weeds of the specifics is if you're handling it in an unhealthy destructive amputation ring towards the relationship then it is likely that your child will parent and and also do it in an unhealthy way which will lead to the same amputation. Because if you are overly uh upset and angry and frustrated and strict and you're amputating the relationship in that type of way, they may react that way. But they also may go to the opposite extreme of being way too permissive, which is going to be interpreted by their own children as, and this is good for parents to hear, right? There's this balance as like, "Do you really care about me?" Right? They they ask what was the punishment to the snake that he has to eat dirt. It's awesome. He gets his food everywhere he goes. He's never hungry, >> right? So the answer is because he gets his food wherever he goes. He's never hungry. He never has to dab into Hashem. He never has to ask. He never there's no there's no need for the relationship with the reonos. And that's something that is actually a punishment. So we want to make sure that we maintain the fact that there's structure and there are rules as much as we can. And I do sometimes see it out there just once we're on this topic of extreme permissiveness that in the name of salvaging the relationship, we just have to be extremely permissive. And perhaps there are unique and specific not the majority of cases, but unique and specific cases where there's what what's a popular term these days of crisis, >> right? that that that requires some level of extreme permissiveness because otherwise the kids's going to do whatever they're going to do and they're just going to do it outside of your house anyway, etc., etc. And even that, it's a question of how far that should go. But for the vast majority of cases, there needs to be a balance and every kid's going to need something different, but a balancing act between allowing. You should have the attitude, I got this from my wife actually, which is a wonderful statement. You should have the attitude of I want to say yes whenever I can. Like let me figure this out. Wait, is there a way for me to say yes? Hushkovically, huckically, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually. Can I say yes? I want to say yes. I want you to be happy and have have say yeah. But there are going to be times where I just can't. And it's not okay for me to say yes. And that's not good for you for me to just say yes or close my eyes. And that ultra permissiveness actually also amputates the relationship and also decreases the quality of the relationship. >> Right. Right. You're reminding me going back to setting healthy boundaries and I caught my kid. We're circling back to this like remind me of a story like a bunch of years ago with my own kids like I was uh I remember I asked them to clean a room you know and I don't know they probably didn't do it fast enough or whatever it was you know and I came back in and I was like so frustrated. I had like this look in my eyes. I was like, I asked you to clean the room. And at that moment, like I saw one of my kids like he was fearful, you know? I saw that. I struck fear in his eyes. And when I saw that, like, oh my god, I'm striking fear into my kids. Like, I don't want to be that type of father. Like, I don't want to be that that type of like first of all, not like that with anyone. I was with her with my kids, you know, and I was like, I don't I just don't want to be that way, you know? And then I what I began to understand is that like so much of parenting and this topic of I caught my kid. It's like and setting healthy boundaries like a lot of it has to do with our own internal reactions to things, you know? So it's like we're reacting to our own feeling as opposed to reacting to what the situation actually demands because we're scared of the implications of our child's behavior or we feel betrayed or we feel like our kids's always trying to win us, beat us or whatever it is. So from that feeling we wind up snapping. Oh, right. And we become reactive parents instead of responsive parents, you know, and we really want to when when we can see that we're reacting to our own family, our own internal, you know, one, we could either if it's deeper things, we could either do the work that we need in order to iron that out, you know, or two, just the fact that seeing that we're reacting to our own feelings and not necessarily to what the situation actually requires of us, that realization alone, that insight alone has the power to change your behavior from reactivity to responsitivity, right? Because when you recognize like, whoa, like I'm reacting to my own feelings. So, I'm angry, I'm upset, I'm nervous, I'm worried, I'm fearful, I'm fill in the blank, you know? So, then you could go for responsive mode. And when I saw that in that moment with my children, I was like, "Huh?" Like the whole thing just it was like one of these watershed moments that I had where the whole thing was just like, "Huh, Shai's angry right now. Nothing to do with them, you know? Like so it's like one of those things and I I think that's key because then we're able to really gauge our barometer one of the relationship and two of what boundaries we need to put right that this art form like you used the word seesaw before I thought that was a great you know this oscillation this seessaw we're able to gauge because when we see that we're like oh I'm reacting to my own inner being you know so like then you get more wiggle room you get more flexibility and you get wiser then you know you get insights oh I need to be more lucier I need There was but it really start you know like uh the cliche I was always please secure your mask you know they always say that but it's true you know it's definitely true that's awesome I think you touched on this but I I want to just kind of bring it out a little bit more starkly the responding to your own inner self I think it's not just recognizing these emotions that are all coming up and we mentioned shock before and you mentioned anger and frustration and kind of being aware where having that meta the ability to have that meta perspective. You know, there's an exercise that I sometimes do with my clients. Not everybody can do it. It requires a certain level of imaginative capability, but kind of just sitting on a couch, closing your eyes, and you can all practice this if you're watching. Sitting in a chair, closing your eyes, and just try to imagine your consciousness floating out of the top of your head with your faculties, your sight, your hearing, all floating up out of the top of your head. And now you're floating at the roof of the room that you're in, the ceiling of the roof that you're in, and you're looking down. And I'll say like, "Okay, your eyes are closed and you're noticing like the top of your head, the top of my head. You kind of see each of our yarmakas. You see our heads kind of talking to each other. And you can hear the conversation going on between the two of us. And it's just like a way of a simple almost cute way of practicing the ability to imagine to to look at things through the eyes of others to recognize what you look like, what you sound like, to recognize things from that meta perspective. And it gives you that additional sense and capability to be able to notice like so what's going on inside of me. Now the point that I want to add to that is many times I'll find that especially when it comes to what we might call kaduca related topics looking at pornography and masturbation the zatala and all these things it is the people who and it could be people who kind of have no connection to it whatsoever and it's just all a whole new world and shocking and there'll be levels of shock there too but the one and there's no this is not a ironclad rule there's always exceptions but Often I find that the ones that are really super intensely reacting, like way more than just like, "Oh my gosh, I never thought about this before." It's the ones that had layers and levels of struggle with this on some level, in some capacity in their lives. It may have been within themselves as they were growing up. It was their own struggle and they're so upset that their child's going through. It may be that their own parent struggled at some level with these types of things, >> right? >> A brother, sister, whatever. And and so indirectly they struggled with it, but there was elements of struggle that really affected them deep down inside and now that's causing just total emotional disregulation when it comes to their own child going down some sort of similar path, >> right? or level of projection or transference that's happening of oh my god I was like that and even though you might have been like a million times worse and whatever it is and you kind of see yourself in this child and you're like start freaking out because it was something you struggled with and and that doesn't have to necessarily even have to do with a uh you know substance abuse or and I consider pornography substance you know with anything you know my child's a worrier you know or I was speaking to a parent the other day and their kid just wants to be left alone in their bedroom cuz he needs space and And I said to the mother, I said, "What did you want as a"? She goes, "And I see myself in him and I know that's what I would do." And you know, and I worry cuz I suffered so much my life. Then I said, "Well, what would you have wanted when you were a child?" She's like, "I really just want to been left alone. I would have I would have been regulated myself." So I'm like it sounds like you know what your child needs also you know because there's that level of projection and that level of transference where you see yourself in your child and and then all of a sudden you start like because you struggle with certain thing your mind's like okay you're wondering about what are the implications and consequences of struggling with such a thing and that puts you in a reactive state right that could put you in a reactive state or it could put you in an empathic state right like wow I really know what that feels like I really know wow you Oh, like uh over here I don't know when this banan starts in uh I'm in Israel. I live in Besamesh, you know. So it's like so my kids are going back to yeshiva going back to school and it's like uh first day they're like oh the rebi the kabusa you know whatever and they're talking and it's I'm just like full stock like wow you have a long day I get it. You know, I remember mine I didn't have such a long day growing up like that like my kids do, you know, but it's like uh wow, I really feel for you as opposed to like I struggled with that too and oh no, where is all this leading? And I think there's a lot of empathy there. There's a lot of love and understanding there, you know. >> Absolutely. Empathy is the, you know, some people look at therapists and they wonder like, okay, like what kind of training do they go through and what do they know that others don't? And I always tell I teach a class to I'm here in Baltimore so I teach a class to some of the ner guys that are thinking about going into therapy for like a mun psychology class. What I often tell them is empathy is and I've I heard this myself when I was in school at Hopkins years ago. Empathy the more naturally empathic you are and you can certainly build empathy as well to some extent. That is the most fundamental foundational element of all successful psychological intervention and therapy. when it comes to mental health first aid and when it comes to therapy and all these things the going from solutionfocused conversation to I just want to understand I just want to sit here and understand more and to you reasons why maybe I could understand to some extent even if I don't fully understand like you said before from my own personal experiences but even if I don't know those personal experiences great I'm listening I want to paraphrase back what you just told me and if that's kind of the opener with your child where as we said at the title here I caught my child. If the opener is just like I just want to understand better you know kind of how did it start and not punitive again initially there may need to be some consequence there may need to be some and regulations and structure that needs to be put into place in time in the next few days but for now like just let me take a deep breath let me get back to my baseline and let me hear let me understand empathy is so crucial and so critical to being able to drive everything forward in a healthy place and And I think this is a good segue to one perhaps we can we can end with this one a little bit heavier topic of what what maybe a parent may quote unquote catch their child doing. What would you say if a parent catches becomes aware of their child either cutting themselves or even engaged in some sort of suicidal ideiation? How would you handle that? >> Right. So let me let me respond to what you were saying before and then we'll segue into this. So I also teach I teach for the subnare program you know as a professor for them and uh so I teach pra I one of the I teach a bunch of classes addictions and trauma and practice one a bunch of class for them and I spend a great deal talking about safety and empathy you know like I did research on the katuim the hostages here and one it it it goes you so far how safety goes because when they like where would you begin rehabilitating someone who isn't like it's like where do you even start? So one of the very first things they do from the handoff of the Red Cross till they bring them home is everything is designed that they should feel safe. Everything from the language that they speak to the people that they meet to the chairs that they're sitting in to the hospital room to when they turn the corner and they meet their parents. It's not like a long hallway. It's it's always a turned corner. Everything for their psy psychological care is done with empathy and safety. And it goes to show you this little thing. I always tell this to my students like this little thing of making someone feel safe is a big deal. It's not like a small and for sure with our kids the same thing any relationship when there's no when when you're not feeling safe in the relation the child's not feeling safe in the relationship. So it begins it begins to deteriorate and unfold. >> Can you can you elaborate on that? What what was the difference between a long corridor versus turning the corner? There's something as far as I understand there's something like if you watch the videos you know you know those videos with the songs come with that song it's I don't hear it anymore you know with the every time crying I'm like oh my god I can't see the uh what if you notice in the videos when they hug their loved ones there's they're always turning a corner right they're always it's like they're turning a corner they're not like at two far ends of a long thing so they they see each other and immediately they touch each other they they embrace they have the skin-to-skin contact of healthy touch that and make that that allows them to feel safer. Now, I don't know exactly the exact exact difference between the long hole and this, but what I do understand is that's staged actually >> or like similarly if they're like right behind a door and the door opens up and there they are type of thing, >> right? And there they are. There's it's like a and then they have this the the the healing touch that healing touch. Yeah. >> They shouldn't be sitting in the anticipation and the distance for too long, >> right? And even even if you hear them speak, one of the things they talk and it's a totally different topic also. One of one of the things that you hear them say is that when they hear Hebrew, when one of the soldiers picked them up and they would hear Hebrew or one or two a few that were rescued, it was the first time they heard Hebrew, right? So they talk about the fact that we heard someone else speaking Hebrew already made us feel calmer. you know that the nervous system was responding to to to these cues that were safe and familiar familiar to them and this goes to the most extreme trauma right which is I don't there's nothing more extreme than that you know to everyday relationships to every day that this and people always want to overlook this because they don't say well I want more advanced techniques but this basic thing of safety for therapy and for parents you know the emotional tunement tuning into what your child needs is it feels too simple to be true. But the the attunement, the emotional attunement in in my mind, this is like one of the biggest things and that's actually one of the predictors of successful therapy is a therapeutic relationship. One's ability to attune themselves to another, you know. So it's it's the same with any relationship and you apply it to parenting also to attune to what does your child need in the moment. when it comes to catching or becoming aware that the child may be doing some of these much more extreme unhealthy things like cutting themselves or uh talking about and thinking about various elements of suicidal ideiation. Once again that shock appropriately so can be there and we have to manage that appropriately. The last thing that the child wants is to feel like not only am I suffering from my depression, from my isolation, from my bullying, whatever is driving me towards these extreme feelings and thoughts, but and actions, but I'm also letting my parents down. Look what I'm doing to them. >> Right? >> I feel so guilty about that. In in a normal healthy relationship, they'll feel so guilty about look what I'm doing to them. And I think looking at the child in the in the bigger picture. So we want to make sure that we're helping them that we're conversing with them with all the tools and ideas that we discussed already with the right patience and empathy and all of that initially and sometimes it requires taking a little time to let the initial shock dissipate. And so then we want to look at the whole child. So yeah, there's this like to scream at them, stop cutting yourself, just stop. Stop. my that mad episode where the woman comes into the psychiatrist and says, "I'm scared that I'm going to be buried alive in a box." And the psychiatrist just looks at her and says, "Okay, you ready?" And she like takes out a notepad at one point and he's like, "You're not going to need the notepad. Stop it." You know, just >> I think I saw that. Yeah. >> Sometimes, right? >> Right. >> Making poking fun. So the the idea is that screaming and reacting with all that shock is very much not looking at the whole picture. It's just zeroing in on this one particular laser tunnel vision focus of this behavior, this decision, this activity, this engagement. It could be dangerous, but it's it's it's ignoring the forest for the trees and it is it is going to create a lot more harm than good. It's creating a situation where instead of looking at the whole picture and recognizing, wait, okay, they hid a phone, they hid a vape, they hid they hid the looking at pornography, they hid looking at pornography, they hid some substances, they hid some other things. Wait, why is it happening? What's going on surrounding them? Oh, there's a whole social scenario. There's a whole social sphere to analyze. There's a whole there's a whole element within the dynamics of the family. Let's discuss that and let's recognize that and let's see what we can do to help them. Let's see what we can do to help them in those areas. I'll say one more point to what you're saying over here. So yeah, first of all, I totally agree with you. The context in which this takes place and is obviously needs to be considered, right? To see the forest from the trees. And one point I'll fill in over here regarding cutting and suicide ideation. Obviously there's different types of suicidal ideation, passive and si and active. Active is a different different story completely, right? obviously if call someone 911 etc etc but what I'd fill in is the other side of it that what that person is experiencing right if you're cutting you're cutting because you're in pain right you're cutting because it feels good to give you a voice and release of that pain it's how you're coping with with not feeling good feeling hurt feeling lonely isolated depressed fill in the blank right and if your if your child has passed through it's because they're in pain they're struggling Right? So, the last thing you want to do is come in and beat them over the head to foster some empathy over here is just to see like, wow, your child's struggling. This person's struggling. Like, wow, how can I be there for them? How can I attune myself to them? How can I show up for them in a way that's meaningful, helpful? How can I be there for what they need and put my own self aside because they're they're in pain, you know? There I there's there's a there's a P that says uh in your anger remember your compassion right to flip the anger of like oh my god why' you do that with wow you're really suffering I'm here for you right to be mom take the anger with compassion and empathy is to show up and and take that empathic look on them and see like wow they're struggling that's that's pretty tough and you want to be there for them you want to show up in that compassionate type of way >> I love that One disclaimer I just want to put out there. It happens to be that I lumped together cutting and suicidal ideiation just because they're both physically dangerous activities to one's body. There is a definite distance between those two. Often cutting is actually a survival tactic for the child, for the person. Whereas suicidality is an exit strategy >> right from the pain. I'm not I'm not lumping them together to make it sound like they're the same. >> Same. Right. Right. Well, Obby, this was a lot of fun. And uh for those of listeners, I hope you gained things from here. I hope you enjoyed. I hope you tune in next time. Hit that subscribe, push that like, forward to a friend. And real, it's so good to see you. It's really nice to see you, honestly. >> Fantastic. Wow, you're doing great work. Keep up the good work. >> I wrote a safer. Can I show you my safer I wrote? >> Yeah, sure. >> I don't know if you know it. >> Knock, right? >> Yeah. Um, another one's coming out soon enough. Here. Here's my safer I wrote. Beautiful. It's >> called N daily Made Easy Mosaic Press. >> Beautiful. >> And uh we have another 1500 getting printed. Sold out like in six weeks. The safer. It's crazy. I never thought like I'd sell a NY book, you know. His