Black Americans and Jewish Americans - How Do We Heal?

foreign [Music] lamb uh we are here in support of uh mudim uh ahmudum's unite to heal campaign is an amazing organization they provide a resource for anyone struggling with abuse neglect addiction or any other crisis events uh and this evening uh we want to talk not at pan out a little bit talk not just about a crisis afflicting a single Community uh but a potential crisis that afflicts uh two amazing American communities and given the importance of our communities and our respective Deep Roots and culture that has the potential to affect the entire American society so this evening we're going to talk about Black Americans and Jewish Americans how do we heal and uh I'm uh the president of social Ops Studios uh CEO of benay Zion uh and the host of the good faith effort podcast and I'm here with one of the people I trust the most uh in the world in general and in particular on matters of faith on matters of leadership in America and as someone who has not just talked the talk but walked the walk in so many different facets of life he is the pastor of Greater Zion church family and the wonderful beautiful city of Compton he's a gospel artist he's an amazing voice for faith in America he's my friend Pastor Michael Fisher Pastor I'm so excited that you're here with me hey what's going on Rabbi Rabbi I'm the pastor back baby yeah man yeah I'm excited to be a part of it thank you for including me um you know you are a dear brother and friend of mine now um and I think this conversation is warranted I think the conversation is important and so I'm glad to be able to land whatever I can to it so bring your greetings from Compton California over here in the states uh you know where I love it we have to we help to shape the narrative all around the world exactly and speaking of uh speaking of cities with global influence I'm coming at you from Jerusalem today so it's uh this is a great this is a great bridge from Compton to Jerusalem that's like that should be the name of an album a book a show of something um so absolutely so before we get into the immediate kind of um Contra tems the Brewing crisis or whatever it is potential opportunity maybe whatever it is before we get into the specific uh the specific events that we can talk about the current events I want to kind of set the stage by maybe you and I reflecting a little bit on what it means to be a person of faith in America and why that means that we actually have a lot at stake in what happens in this country right so in my case um you know I grew up in a rabbinic family a family that um in my grandfather's case helped Steward American Judaism at a really crucial Point Rabbi Norman lamb of blessed memory uh and you're a father the late Reverend Jerome Fisher built the first African-American church in Compton which is an amazing Legacy I mean what unique perspective did that give you on life and politics whether in your own Community or in America at large so if you kind of used to set the stage for this conversation um well I would probably say that you know faith is the fabric of morality right um so when you have people that have faith in a higher being then that means that that is a person or a group of people that are subjecting themselves to a level of accountability which is so important because if we are given to accountability and another Authority then that kind of helps to keep us on track and how it is we're to treat our neighbors how it is we are to love one another how it is we are to serve one another um and how it is we're supposed to check our hearts our motives and then when we are wrong how we navigate to get back on the right track um so our country um right is built on faith principles and oftentimes I feel like when we get too far off to the left or the right um it's important that those that are part of the faith community that we are the barometer for the culture and that's what I watched my father do in the city of Compton being that Compton is known in Los Angeles as the Hub City um which means everything passes through there we connect all the cities we connect the seaports to the mountains to the beaches to the valleys and so I've watched my father use faith and um the church to be the intersection for all things whether it was Crisis within our local community or whether it was an issue that we needed to address on a larger level and so I think it's that need here again and and it's very important that Faith leaders are the ones that take the lead on helping our country these communities and other communities find that Medium bridge to Healing I love that by the way because I by the way I didn't I mean people should know I did not send you anything in advance you're just an incredibly brilliant person I see here's the thing every time we talk together I always just end up feeling so inadequate by the end of the conversation so I'm super excited for this again yeah here you go oh my God so so Pastor when I love when you talk about first of all the idea of accountability of kind of using an external standard that we can use to hold ourselves responsible and the idea that the things that we do in our own communities don't just matter for us we actually both have a responsibility but also an opportunity and a privilege to be able to um help other communities and to be able to think about the long-term future of the Collective experiment that we're undertaking uh here in America at large and so with that as a frame how do you approach both the specific you know instance of like a Kanye West um you know saying what he said or a Kyrie uh you know at least asking the kind of questions that he asks I don't think that Kyrie and Kanye are doing the same thing they're you know both bad I think but subtly different like how do you approach that both as a leader in a particular community and all also as kind of someone who's thinking about the larger context of the relationships between your community and my community the Jewish community and the larger American public like how do you what's your your entry ramp onto that conversation there's a scripture and for whatever reason it just slipped my mind exactly where it is but you I'll throw you the ball to Friday tell us where it is um of course it says God tells Israel right come and let I said this before let us reason together that's where I believe the entry ramp is is that coming into this trying to see it from all sides and trying to figure out okay well where can we meet in the middle um according to the Christian faith one of the things that Jesus teaches us in the writings are blessed are the peacemakers right um blessed are those that try to find a resolve um I love some of the rabbinic um like uh philosophies where everyone gathers around and you all don't necessarily come to an agreement on all the scriptures and all the written texts but you do agree to find a way to live in the tension to live in the tension right until you can kind of come to a solid agreement and I think that that is our responsibility as religious leaders you know we are we are Advocates of the communities we come from and when we see that a community is hurting another community that we also care so dearly about and we've seen work together hand in hand in so many ways um we have to find a very wise way to walk that walk uh where you kind of say well I want to hear your perspective so that you'll give me entryway to share it with you another perspective you know um and also talk to the other communities and saying hey this is how this is where maybe that came from and maybe there may be a part there where we can show them Grace um so that this doesn't just tear to pieces and pull out from up under us um all that our ancestors built for the two communities to work together so I think that that's that's you know that's that's my my goal um is to try to figure out how can we meet in the middle um so we can get an understanding obviously there's a misunderstanding right and all people don't know how to express themselves when they're when they're trying to convey a misunderstanding um so that's where I think our wisdom rabbis pastors uh we have to we have to try to help the communities um you know interpret no not interpreted but conveying what they're trying to convey in a way that doesn't tear apart the alliances it works so hard to bring together I love that I actually I almost want to use that as like an opportunity to kind of like go one after the other because I want to answer this question too but I have had so many opportunities over the last you know week or two to reflect on the state of the discourse over the content you know the current moment of anti-Semitism a whole context of racism and anti-Semitism I've had a lot of opportunities to reflect on the state of that conversation I keep thinking I don't feel that people in my community are are always articulating the the perspective on this the right way and and I kind of have this sense of like man if I could just get on the phone with somebody or if I could get on a zoom or if I could get in person with somebody in the media or somebody in the black community here's what I would say right to help clarify things or put a new perspective on it so you must have I mean I want to assume but like you must have this thing where like hey if I could just sit and explain something to you it would actually help your understanding of the matter because you might not you might not know it because you're not an Insider to my community right so I have a version of that I'm curious if you do also like what's something that that you would want to help an outsider understand about Insiders um so from us you know especially when we start dealing with um The Narrative of you know I think Kyrie said something like you know how can I be anti-semitic um when I know where I come from um for us I think why it's hard for everyone in the black community to see it from our fellow Jewish brothers and sisters point of view is because you're dealing with a people who their identity has been completely erased from every single significant cultural narrative in the world right um and that that's not a that's not a a hypothetical statement that's a fact right whether you know you look around the world you don't see black people at the helm of most significant advancements uh um you know we're raised from The Narrative of being pharaohs in Egypt we're raised from The Narrative of what we've done with this country in America we're raised from The Narrative of even the Advent um the indigenous people all the way in Australia right and it's always replaced with a very white um perspective you know and so we know that for a lot of reasons and sometimes the things that are said are just said from the fact of you're dealing with people that just feel like they're always being erased from stories they are never been they're never included in any narrative at all and then when they are um it's always as if you know it's downplayed like the things that we added to the culture or to that Society um you know the society would have been fine with or without it and it's not not true you know we've added as a people so much to every culture every narrative every time frame you know in the advancement of people around the world really basically it's like black people are saying we just want our credit that's really what's being kind of said and so that would be a piece of Insider information I would love to pass to the world you know imagine how hurtful it is that when you look on the major screen even back in the day and you see you know the story of um the great Egyptian gods and goddesses and the Pharaohs you see and Elizabeth Taylor exactly why do we have Elizabeth Taylor you know representing Egypt you just can't seem to make that right and so there was a time when we were so oppressed we couldn't speak our minds about it um now you have a generation that is saying to themselves and that's where this whole woke thing is and I see uh sometimes our fellow Americans demonizing that term well it came from this standpoint of there's an Awakening happening because now we can Google we can read we can research things that hundreds of years ago our ancestors were not allowed to do and so the more knowledge we gain there's this Awakening of a sense of who we are and where we are placed in society and in comparison to actually the contributions we've made and it doesn't match up the math is not mapping right so a lot of times that's where uh this is coming from it's really just a hard culture of people that just are trying to say hey we were there too and we're tired of being erased it's so powerful and I actually it's such a good transition to what I would want to share in turn um with your community because I think in many ways the insights parallel each other and show that there's actually a potential for for partnership and friendship that can grow out of this if we play it right and that is first of all so A very wise friend of mine actually did a whole thread about this on Twitter Ellie Fisher so I want to give him a shout um he made a really important point which is that when folks in my community talk about like the Black Hebrew Israelite narrative right the idea that the idea that um black people going back to Africa have Jewish roots or were Jewish part of a lost tribe Etc there are two different claims that you can make one of them I think is one of them I think is pernicious and I want to explain why and from an Insider perspective something that people outside might not appreciate but the other version of the claim I think is actually not only tolerable it's actually can lead to very wonderful things and I I want to explain that as well the the pernicious version of it and and here I want to explain a little bit why you know in the in the Jewish Community just sets off such alarm bells that seem in commensurate to the gravity of the claim it seems like you guys are getting so worked up over nothing the pernicious version of the claim is we are the real Jews meaning you contemporary Jews are not real Jews like we're the original Jews you're not Jews right and that strikes alarm Bells because of something called replacement theology which I I'm sure you're familiar with but a lot of the listeners both Jewish and non-jewish won't be familiar with which is an idea that goes all the way back to the second century like the early decades uh of the Common Era so like you know the 100s which is as um as Christianity grows into uh into a phenomenon that has its own self-identity as opposed to you know just being an offshoot of you know or a version of Judy or like a take on Judaism as it grows into its own phenomenon you have writers like Justin Martyr like irenaeus eventually like uh to tertullian Augustine Jerome some of the great Lions of the you know among the church fathers who put forth the idea that the people of Israel are actually rejected by God he's cast them aside they have no more role in history and all of the promises of the Bible that refer to the people of Israel are actually have actually been stripped from them and now they refer to the only true Israel which is the church now again I'm not here to judge anybody's theology like if that's your theology that's your theology and it has its own internal coherence I'm not here to judge it obviously but that idea uh has had really dire consequences for actual Jewish people like we've meaning the roots of so many grams riots persecutions centuries upon centuries of history that most people don't know which is just you know like you have Augustine who was the good guy like Jerome thought that we should just kill all the Jews because they deserve it Augustine comes along and says you don't have to kill them it's enough for them to just be downtrodden for the rest of History if we keep them downtrodden they'll be witnesses to the triumph of of Ecclesia of the church right so this idea is at such dire consequences for the Jewish community and it's metastasized at really critical points in Jewish history and world history like during the Holocaust and during some of the massacres of the Middle Ages in and has resulted in just Untold Jewish deaths so anytime someone talks about about being the real version of us and where the fake version we start to think I think understandably replacement Theology and then we get really afraid and that leads me to one other point that I want to make on that which is people like I just had a baby five months ago super excited um friends of mine who are thank you friends of mine who aren't Jewish like make fun of us because we got this kid a passport like the first second that we could like an international passport and we did that for all of our kids and everybody I know in the Jewish Community certainly in like the traditional like in the Orthodox Jewish Community we all get our kids passports like that International passports why it's not because we're a neurotic Woody Allen types it's because we've all had it beaten into us and and not literally but ingrained into our psyche by our parents by our grandparents by our teachers that we all have to be prepared to run like if things get bad here we need to be able to run the Jews of Nazi Germany made the mistake of not running and we've been thrown out of every country we've been chased at every place we have to actually be prepared to go to the airport like I know I have friends I don't have to personally do this but I definitely have friends who actually have a suitcase packed under their bed at all times just in case we need a run in the middle of the night and I don't think people process like the fear in our community but what so that's like the pernicious version of the of the claim you know that that someone else is replacing us and no amount of empathy will get us past that fear however and this is what what my friend Ellie Fisher pointed out the idea of saying of of looking for jewishness in your background in the background of the black community in particular actually is a really powerful or can be a really powerful thing first of all for all the reasons that you said which is it's it's actually meaning you should expect something like this for a community that's had so much torn away from it forcibly erased from it it's something to be expected but also it's it has led to actual positive things like just to use a really prominent example that everyone in my community will know Amari stodemeyer amazing NBA player Nick Legend within the context of everything since the 90s right but but we love him our son and Amare actually who believes in this narrative um he actually ended up converting to Judy's no we're not a proselytizing religion we're not going out and trying to make converts but Amari embraced Judaism Orthodox Judaism and has become like universally beloved within our community like we love Amari and he's he's studying and he's actually becoming quite learned it's an amazing thing to see and it all came from this like deep curiosity of trying to find faith and jewishness in your past in a way that actually is really wonderful and so I guess what I'd say is you know if I could sum it up would I would I wish people outside our community understood was the thing that makes us afraid is the replacement narrative because we know what that leads to and we're we're so afraid of it that we're literally ready to run and at the same time and this transition I think will transition to the next question when I ask you I wish you know I wish there was more pause in the conversation on the part of my community and I think you're starting to see it among some of the right people to say hey here's why someone would be attracted to a black Israelite narrative not a replacement version but uh hey here's what's in our past version like trying to recover Origins here's why someone would be attracted to it and here's why it actually is a positive thing and something that we should wanna Embrace like curiosity and and a sense of History like something we should want to embrace but that could speak to the next question that I would love for us both to tackle also which is what's something that you would want to say to your community as like hey and I want to do this to my community also like what's something that you would want to say to your community like hey here's something that we could actually do different than what we're doing now that would help things before I jump to that I would just say that you know that concept of the replacement theology is the exact same fear of the black community um I like that can you unpack that that's great yeah well it's what I just said before you know you talked is that you all are are afraid of being replaced we've already been replaced you know I mean when they came and took us from our continent and from our land and they brought us over here they erased us they they read us from our native language our native native tongue um our names they ripped children from families it was barbaric it was an Attract it was an atrocity um and then they replaced all of it with you know their their version of what Jesus looked like and again what the Pharaohs look like you know so for us we've already been replaced you're like Post in a post-replacement world oh man so and the reason why that's important to say is because I think that the Jewish Community I think can take solace than the fact that I don't think everyone now I can't speak for everyone just like you can't speak for everyone um I think though from the people that I talk with and from some of the folks that think like I do it's not about replacing the astronomazi Jews it's not about replacing you know saying oh we are the only ones and not me first of all I I don't know I don't know if I'm Jewish or not so let me just say that for the people that are watching you know so when I say we I'm just talking on behalf of of my fellow uh African-American brothers and sisters but we are not trying to replace um I think it's more or less I think which they're trying to get the narrative to say and and it's it's it's it's the um the Jews that we the Contemporary Jews that we see and there are tribes that are um of dark skin that are also you know possibly linked to to uh the same Birthright privilege and when all the Jews had to scatter and leave everyone didn't go up north everyone didn't flee to to the regions of of Poland and Russian that there are some that you know fled towards you know Ethiopia or they fled to West Africa or they fled to the southern regions of Africa and it could be possible that some of them also now have come home and it's and I think I think that's what they're looking for it's not a replacement now there are some and let me say this let me speak against this there are some that are operating in the replacement Theology and anyone with good sins does not stand with that there are some that want to downplay the horrific events of the Holocaust and anyone that thinks that what happened on the Holocaust was not horrific or that in some strange way the Jewish people would create that only only for it to kill and destroy their own people their own Community is delusional and and crazy so I I just I just wanted to say that you know um what happened in the Holocaust horrible uh is it should be forever damned and shamed um so let me say that but there's there is a group unfortunately that is spreading those messages and I want to say this majority of the black community does not stand with that period now next page but there is a sense of wanting to reclaim like I said at the beginning our place in the Jewish narrative as well when we look at the origins being the land of you know the Mesopotamian land and you know the Northern Africa and Egypt and we're present you know Iraq is and you know the Middle East and all of that you know we know that for a fact that when we deal with maybe the descendants of Noah you know or Abraham yeah it could be a possibility that they were of a darker Hue if you will and I think that what the black community is saying is that is it possible to just get an and in there that yes you know we are the original Jews and I'm pretty sure we have some brothers and sisters that are also a part of that Birthright that their skin color is a little darker than ours that's a whole different conversation um and I think that that conversation unfortunately is being overshadowed by the squeaky wheel you know that is pushing this more dangerous narrative that you guys unfortunately are hearing in the mainstream so let's just to speak to to my community um I think that it would be wise that we would allow those that are um not divisive to be the voice voices that are heard on our behalf I think that's very important um I think I can say very straightforward that all conversations about the Holocaust should be off the table period that was a horrific event that happened and we out of all people who lost so many of our ancestors in the transatlantic slave trade uh you know we should know you know how that feels for someone to downplay how horrible slavery was because we hear it even to this day you know when we hear just second generation people who their Grandma were slave owners telling us that we should be grateful because the slave owners took good care of us while they were oh and that's like a legit that's like a narrative that's out there I know so I'm saying that there therefore no one from the black community if we know how hurtful that is when we hear it about what happened with us with slavery knowing from the black community should ever stand by anyone that is downplaying um the Holocaust narrative and so I think that those are just two things that we could work on not allowing people that are divisive to be our our voices and never standing with anyone that is going to downplay one of the most horrific events that happen in our in our human history alongside with what happened to our own people during slave trade and then lastly I think more meaningful conversations like this where we come in ready to live in attention and be humble enough to walk away from the conversation and chew on the thoughts that were brought up in the conversation you know and to wrestle with it until eventually we can find a common ground I love that and and in turn I think what I would want to say I've been like dying for a venue to say this what I would want to say to Mike what I would want to say to my community is I hate I really really hates a strong word I I really find a lot lacking in the way that that organizations like the ADL have dealt with this particular matter particularly Kyrie Kanye may be a separate issue and I want to get to that in a second but I think the role of the ADL is playing in Kyrie and particularly the way in which they kind of have been like anointed as like the Jewish popes who get to represent the whole community and dealing with this with this matter is maybe not intentionally awful but it's awful and I want to articulate why the eight you know listen there are a lot of different opinions about the ADL within the Jewish Community because you know that mostly have to do with politics I'm not here to adjudicate that um the ADL if you just assume that its role is to combat anti-Semitism and let's just assume for the sake of argument that that's all that they're doing which may not always be the case but that's what they're doing so that's great it's important to fight anti-Semitism you know the Holocaust is within living memory they're they're there are still something like 115 maybe more they're actually I think 190 000 Holocaust survivors still alive just in the state of Israel um so the worst event in the history of anti-Semitism since like the destruction of the second temple is within living memory so it's important to find anti-semitism the problem becomes when that's the only voice that any mainstream American hears and in particular when the people who are Prosecuting that fight are themselves just not more not less but just expert just experts in anti-Semitism like it's not like the people Prosecuting the fight against anti-Semitism or the great sages of the Jewish tradition or are you know our greatest rabbis and Scholars and intellectuals and people who've spent their lives dedicated to the study of our tradition and are representing all of that along with the fight against anti-Semitism it's mostly people whose only job it is and whose only qualification is fighting anti-Semitism now again I'm glad those people exist but when when that's the only voice that most mainstream Americans hear what it seems like and you know you could be forgiven for thinking that jewishness has no content at all but the fight against anti-Semitism and that makes us look like a deeply intellectually spiritually morally impoverished Community because it makes it seem like we don't stand for anything other than fighting Prejudice and in fact if you asked many you know many Jews who are in one way or another not super connected to their Church like what does Judaism mean to you often the answer you'll hear is it means the fight against Injustice like okay great like Injustice is bad like I'm also anti-cancer great thanks for the brave stance but Judaism is about and jewishness is so it's such a rich tradition it's one of the richest intellectual Traditions to emerge from the ancient world we are the stewards of of an incredible 3 000 year history of wisdom and values and ethics to reduce the whole thing to just don't hate us is a catastrophe it's a catastrophe and it's a product of and this is the first time in the history of the Jewish people that we've ever presented ourselves this way to most people now this is also a great time to be a Jew because you're much less likely to be killed for being Jewish today in 2022 which is great I'm super grateful to every person and particularly to God who made that happen however this is also and this is you know not not not all good things have to go together there can be bad things that go along with good things one of the bad things about this time in history is that it's the first time in history really since you know maybe if you include the enlightenment a little the Jewish Enlightenment a little bit but it's the first time in history where you can identify as a Jew but literally do nothing else to invest in your jewishness and that is considered not only a an acceptable way of living in some cases that's lionized as a way of life and the tragedy that that introduces is that therefore if all you're if all you do is identify as a Jew and you invest nothing else in your peoplehood and your tradition and your intellectual content and substantive values then the only way that anyone outside your community can ever interact with your jewishness the only way your jewishness can be activated so to speak is if somebody hates you because that's the only time since the only thing you do is I'm I identify as a Jew there's no way to interact with it at all you can't ask any questions about it you can't engage with it you can't ask about traditions and values and practice and worldview the only thing you can do to activate it is to hate it and so the only time that many many Jews are ever speaking jewishly is fighting anti-Semitism so the the sad Calamity that this is introduced is that many many Outsiders and I think particularly it's particularly true for a community like your community which as you said earlier has a really robust culture and is so invested in identity especially in this generation and like recovering identity and exploring identity and Excavating identity it can seem weird to interact with a community that seems like the only thing it wants is for you to not hate it like we don't have anything to offer back and and like what that produces for my community and I think this is bad is if if our only tool like fighting anti-Semitism has to be a tool in our toolkit we won't survive otherwise but if that's the only tool in our toolkit then the only thing that we know how to do is punish people for being anti-semitic now sometimes people do need to be punished for being anti-semitic this is that we're recording this on the evening of kristallnacht right so Germany on the eve of the Holocaust could have used some International punishment and it didn't get it and it was a disaster however when I look at a like a Kyrie Irving and we talk about that question of like as you put it the yes and right There's an opportunity here like Kyrie did not at least I personally think Kyrie did not speak about this in a in a unifying way I think he spoke about it more in a divisive way to speak to your points earlier but that said if you ask me what do the Jewish people actually stand for it's not fighting anti-Semitism that's something we have to do as a tactic what do we actually stand for we're teachers we've always done that like we're people who study we're people who love to teach we love to learn we love to interact we love to engage with others in learning we never learn by ourselves we always study in pairs and in groups and this was an opportunity for this could still be an opportunity for us to to see the yes and uh moment here like like it worked for an Amari sodomier or like it works for someone you know who's coming from a very different side of this what works for someone like you right who's so who's so curious and who and who's so broad-minded and expert in these matters this is an opportunity for us to say okay let's do some learning together right like let's do some study together we'll both learn things from that experience but like instead of saying hey Kyrie okay your punishment is you have to give a jillion dollars to the ADL for their next benefit and you have to visit a holocaust museum which again people should know about the Holocaust for sure but as the great com you know the Jewish comedian Modi said like sending people to a holocaust museum as a punishment for anti-Semitism just giving people ideas right so like and again it's like it's not that's not a substantive response that's like I just don't hate us response the response could have been and I know for many people in in the traditional Orthodox community both privately expressed in WhatsApp groups publicly expressed on Twitter and Instagram and you know the kind of thing that we talk about around the Shabbos table when we get together in private is man like if someone had asked me what should Kyrie do it would be like oh my God come to my house for Shabbos like we'll study together the whole time like you won't want to leave like you'll be so excited to come here and we'll and we'll learn from you you'll learn from us and it'll be amazing right or like cut you know like come over to our study house and see how rich it is and you and you'll teach us something and we'll teach you something and we'll all grow from The Experience again would that have worked with Kyrie the individual I don't know I can't look into a person's heart only God can do that I think I think it would have I I think it definitely would have you know you you think the things that you said are are really meaty if you will and I'll tell you why you know uh there was a story my father said that there was a little boy um that he went to school with and everybody would pick on him by like flicking the back of his head um every morning one day um in his because he had finally my dad had finally kind of started hanging around the cool kids and they all flicked the boy and eventually my dad trying to prove that he was just as cool because he was glad to finally be a part flick the back of the boy's head the boy turns around and looked at him and began to cry and my father said he looked at him like well what everybody has done this to you and he turned around and said but we used to be friends I never thought she would and the reason why I'm saying that story is because in the Jewish community in the black community when you talk about how the Jewish Community especially those that are of influence take such a hard stance against anti-Semitism the thing in the black community is we're also we also take stances against injustices but it's for everyone we don't just get loud when it's happening to us we've stood with the Jews when they blew up the synagogues we've stood you know with in the lgbtq community when they begin to have hate crimes against the trans Community even if some people were conflicted with you know what they felt about the trans Community we really believe that Injustice to anyone is an injustice to everyone and I think that when you do say things like you know for the first time ever um it's a great time to be of the Jewish Community because you can do be the Jew and not be easily killed in comparison to it's 100 years later and black people are still being hung from trees and we're still being murdered in the streets and people are still like um a written house are now Superstars because of what they what they do um we're sitting here looking at our friends who we at one time were equally hated if you will outwardly we're looking at one of our friends seemed to kind of come into a space of influence and then they are turning around and they're using the same tactics that they know that our oppressors used against us um our thing with how Kyrie is being treated um is that we are always a fair people and those on the outside would not know that unless they are really raised in a black community the black community is taught to be a fair people which means we can take the discipline as long as you promise the discipline everyone the same um so you know we would like to see that when they begin to speak against the slavery that happened to our people when people were publicly openly saying things that were anti-black um that it should have been the same open remarks the same the test right that was shared um with the anti-semitic moments we would love to see our Jewish brothers and sisters with the same energy to test and come against the anti-black moments that happen because we all were in this same fight at one time and most of the people in our community are looking at the demands that are placed on Kyrie and they're saying well that seems to be a tactic you know it's like you know he's publicly being like you know we're going to teach y'all a lesson like this is what happens if you do anything that's anti-semitic um but a lot of us are actually saying okay but where's that same energy with everything else that happens to us and if we saw that same energy that was going to protect our blackness trust and believe we have the people and we saw that they were being anti-semitic we would stand with that and say well you ought to be saying that now you should have never did that because we are fair people and a lot of people from the outside don't know our principles and don't know how we're taught them we're raised and I think that that element I mean it's very strong of you to say some of the things that you said uh Rabbi so I'm praying for you um but it's very true that um if the only time we see the Jewish Community is when they are defending um you know against anti-Semitism um then yeah it does minimize um really how powerful how great how wise well-rounded and culture that Community really is so I I think it would be helpful if the voices that came forth from the Jewish Community would be the voices of let's sit down and talk because that's what they did when Nick Cannon if you remember when when the Canon at his moment instead of immediately saying you know they started running the list of all the things he needed to do rabbis from around the city of Los Angeles immediately reached out to him and said let's sit down let's talk and let's find a a reason let's learn from each other and that was a way better outcome um than what we're seeing how things are being handled with with Kyrie so so if I can and I know we're like run out of time but if I can as usual I know right this is like always our problem I want to offer one pushback and then one like I think like hopefully a constructive type of solution like here's what we could do my pushback would be in the Jewish Community we often feel like it's sort of like a heads you win heads I win tails you lose scenario where if we say nothing then anti-Semitism goes unchecked because it's not unsexy to say bad things about you know to say bad things about Jews right like we're not we're not one of those groups that it's like that it's like uncool to say bad things about us it may be like you know it may be sanctioned but you know the kind of stuff you know you could print a whole you know Front Page New York Times story about how our you know Orthodox religious schools are bad when literally every school that you compare it to is as bad or Worse um you could accuse us of being like vectors of disease during covid which was not true like all that kind of stuff and so we kind of I think the feeling is look if we say nothing this will just keep going unchecked because no one's standing up for us but us and if we do say something then it confirms The Conspiracy Theory Theory like see like the Jews are are being so powerful and trying to shut us down so we often feel caught in a bind and I think when we see particularly a Kanye for example like a Kanye is not questioning Right akairi is coming from a place of question and I think the mistake was conflating those two things but and I think because they came so quick one after the other no one paused to think but like when we see a Kanye speaking up and saying just like truly demented things about the Jewish people and we feel like we're the only ones um pushing and yelling and screaming and we had to claw to get anyone to say anything back to him we kind of felt like man if we don't if we don't say anything No One's Gonna have our back right so we have to and that gets you into the tribalism zone of because then it becomes a vicious cycle right because then then the other community will feel like well if they're going to look out for themselves we have to look out for ourselves and then it just gets worse and worse and worse so I that would be my pushback but I think it also leads to a constructive solution which is the biggest problem like when I hear what you're saying and I and I hear what I'm saying this is the kind of conversation that happens when the only time that two communities talk is when we've insulted each other right exactly that's the biggest problem so we're Nev like even if you go back to like the classic example of like Jews Like Jewish people and black people working together is like the Civil Rights era which was great don't get me wrong it was awesome but even then that wasn't a positive project that was like the negative project also important of securing rights right or fighting against Prejudice but when was the last time arguably never in the history of this country that our two communities have actually worked on something positive together like a positive project that didn't have to do with people hating us the opportunities are so broad where the where the the two most faithful communities that are also minority communities uh in this country we are two communities that have known a history of Oppression but also have a really strong intellectual tradition nevertheless um or or even in spite of the darkness we are two communities that have contributed a tremendous amount to culture whether it's Arts entertainment literature film TV go down the line like there's and and we both look to to the Bible and specifically the Hebrew Bible as a North star not just spiritually but in terms of political philosophy and in terms of historical narrative so there is such fertile ground for us to work on productive projects together and creative projects together that would to use a metaphor from a teacher of mine when he was advising like you know young guys about to go into the rabbin it like how do you deal with like balancing family responsibilities versus the needs of your congregation and he always used to say you got to put money in the bank like when it's time for a crisis and you have to make that decision family congregation it's already too late what you have to do is before the crisis spend as much time as you can with your kids whenever you can spend as much time with your spouse whenever you can do those fun family things because that way when the crisis comes if if you could choose your family great but if you have to choose the congregation you already have that money in the bank so they know that there's a love and and closeness there I think that's what our communities need like we just we can complain about each other all we want but the end of the day we need money in each other's bank right we need to put money in the bank and the only way to get that money in the bank like we definitely can do a better job of standing up for each other and we definitely can do a better job of taking responsibility for our own actions for sure but those are all and those are like threshold things but they're also negative projects right like it's insufficient what we also need to do is just work together on things that don't have anything to do with hatred and Prejudice and bigotry so that we know when a crisis strikes we have all of these deep roots in each other's souls and creative psyche like does that does that make sense that does that resonate yeah yeah it goes back to how it opened up where I said I think our job as religious leaders such as yourself and and myself is to Foster those necessary conversations to come together and reason together you know that's how we open is a perfect way to to end it right and to sit down and get to know one another's perspective and hopefully walk and not coming to the room ready to to disprove the other party to come into the room open to say well they may have a point that I've never seen and walk away from that saying oh I could see how they got to that conclusion oh I can see how it is that they were offended by that oh I can see how it can look like you know we're you know uh leaving them out there hanging if you will for example when it's when I hear you say you know no one is standing up for the Jewish Community the the problem oftentimes is is that in the black community um and we know this also to be a fact in um in America is our voice is oftentimes suppressed it is really suppressed so unfortunately when things are happening against the Jewish Community you have leaders that are crying out against it but they don't get any air time they don't they don't cover us and the reason why is because there is so much more to gain by having the two communities pitted against each other you know taking our eyes off of the greater the greater picture um so no one covers the leaders when they say that's horrible you know what happened to the synagogues when they were blown up or you know the uh the I never know how to pronounce the the the the Nazi symbol that they draw on you know yeah yeah you know what I mean we cry we speak out against that but you all will never know it because our voice oftentimes is not magnified in those moments and but but when we have conversations like this you leave saying like oh no it's not just us crying out no they're with us no they too disagree with some of the things that are being said and so I think it is by the way it is important as we move forward from this that all leaders who whoever's watching this from my community from your community that we continue to advocate for the conversations again not to disprove one another but to be open-minded and see where one another is coming from and then we can walk away with a better understanding of both cultures and we can live in that middle ground amen Pastor man see you always you always get rocking right at the end that was amazing I love it it is it is it is so beautiful to speak to you it is it is such a highlight of any week that I'm in when I get to when I get to hang out with you so really looking forward to this with you yeah I love it this is I'm looking forward to this being the first of many such conversations yeah yes no absolutely man you know we uh I think we're showing it right I think we're showing it and it can be done I tell people all the time and this is where I'll be done I tell people all the time that when you look at the Great Pyramids as Majestic as they are and they are Majestic they're really just little grains of sand compressed upon one another and so we oftentimes Overlook things that are little and small such as these conversations but we can be that grain of sand and if we all do it it can press together we can make very very beautiful pyramids that can change the world so everyone that's out there have those conversations over lunch have a conversation at work have the conversation amongst your friends and um [Laughter] there it is there it is hey man listen last last word is please uh We've we've been able to do all this in support of an amazing cause I'm udem unite to heal resources for anyone struggling with abuse with neglect with addiction uh with any crisis event I moved them is here for you support uh support the unite to heal campaign and support I mudim we love you guys yeah we love you [Music]