Ep. 15: The Real Deal on the Shape of the Menorah with Rabbi Mendy Greenberg

You can tell from the descriptions that that there's this is something that the Jews in America had never really experienced to be by to see to see to see to to to be like like present the was something it was very very powerful and the people would later or they were kaza things over to their shoulds or to the people that you know what the said and which parts and everybody would compete you know did who understood what and how much did you understand? >> I'm Yasi Cayman. Welcome to among an ongoing faban about life as aid our vibrant connection with theb and inspired living shaped by the way he teaches us each and every day. How are you today? Thank you for having me. Of course it's uh when when we started I knew that you're going to be on Hashem. You have done many many very in-depth and very interesting articles that you have written for the deer over many many years and there they're still being featured monthly and I felt that it would be very interesting in to either talk about uh something that you wrote about in the past and in this case I think there's two topics that you are um researching which are going to be featured in future the hair magazines which I think are very interesting topics. I guess we'll give a sneak preview and in conversation the ultimately there's going to be more details than what is going to be in print. So I think this might be interesting specifically the two topics that I want to talk to you about and hopefully we'll have a time to discuss both of them. Number one is the article that you're working on the story of the freed's visit to the United States not when he moved in Alf but the visit and the second topic that you're writing about which is very very interesting is the shape of the in the B mikdash and everything that that entails. So, let's start with the visit of the freed sounds like a plan. >> Absolutely. >> What you have in what do you Mhm. >> Go ahead. Go ahead. >> What you have in the printed article is never going to be the same in a conversation. People, you know, sometimes people ask, you know, they want hashmatus from whatever we didn't put in. The reality is usually the best hashmatus we put inside because that's what makes it more interesting. It's if the story is more entertaining or interesting. Um, but yeah, you're right. You're right. There's probably there's definitely things that don't go in an article, especially about the freed's visit to America. It's it's it's a very very unique story and it's so large that it really deserves a book. There's the freed was here for 10 or 11 months. This wasn't a visit like to visit. The freed went to right beforehand in tish in tish. Um it was it was about 12 days or 14 days. the entire visit he went it was there for two Shabbas and we wrote about that and that was something that we felt like he could put into an article but sitting with a story of the visit to America was it was just so immense it was impossible to fit in everything there are so many beautiful beautiful descriptions so so many amazing uh stories that a diver I wrote on my status that I'm writing about it and I asked you know I told people if you have anyone has something interesting they should send to me I got so many so much stuff and I almost didn't include any of it because the story itself I mean what people usually send is they found that the was in their city of and they and there was a news article about it and there was a story here and a story there and I met someone but the story itself as it was reported in the newspapers as it's already been published in publications in in told the story is so extensive and so amazing that the it was just never ending. >> Okay, I'm very excited. Sounds like >> I have to tell you the whole story. >> Yeah. >> So, yeah. So, where does it begin? First of all, what's the context? Um, so we're talking about it was tough pess arrived here in the very end of tish pas, >> right? And he was here the whole, you know, most of tish most of tish >> 1929 1930. Um, so he's coming from I guess we're we're this is the next step after the podcast that we had a few episodes ago with David Molden about that whole story and the Fredaba now has left Russia and has moved to Ria and I so the trip is from from Ria right that's the >> from Ria yeah >> okay the trip >> take it away >> yeah the fre the freed leaves from Ria. I mean he went to Israel first from Israel. He he went >> what was the purpose of the trip? >> So the the purpose of the trip was the fact that the fidic was now was now left um I would say pushed out of Russia or however you want to describe it. Till then he was the Nazi in Russia in in Russia and all the Russian Jews. I mean if you if you just to jump back in the history a little bit all the were basically the if you the term nas is a very physicalistic one when it comes to when you talk about Russia the the in Russia all from the alterba down every one of their was at the forefront of of the gashmistic leadership not even simply gashistic leadership of the in Russia of taking care of them in every way you have the alterb was start started the stories of the colonas and that was with the too we had we wrote articles about that and the was the stories of continist of the stories about the pagrams. have a million different uh as things that he did on behalf of the yidd in Russia and in general in Russia the understanding was that there's if you ask a Jew in Russia who is the leader of the of Russian jury he would tell you the and maybe also in other words if they were and they were snagged so in the time of the you had the and or you had in the time of there's orb but they were always viewed as at the forefront And this is actually it's interesting. It's not the case with of the other branches of Kabad. There was Kapos, there was Yadi, there was Najin, the other sons of the who became rebas in their own right. You don't see the same level of of I don't know what the right word would be, but you don't see that same idea. The the Rebs in Capost ori the if you look at Bi the way he describes them, he says they said and they were upon the office and who came to visit them and that was this the the basic relationship. who says and he's and he's that he's there he's the but by the he writes on a whole different level how and he's and he and in the in the leadership and so basically what you have at the end of by the times there were many many um many rabbon many rasha that simply when it came communism they just picked up and left and they said we can't be from here it's clear that the Russians are trying to shut everything we're leaving and anyone who could could leave and they sent Alhiv over the border and many many famous names of of people who did that there would I mean there was tons of yiddish they were talking about the whole Belleris the whole the whole Ukraine there was was full of rebas and misnag and and yeshiv and all sorts of stuff and parts of yeah I'm not sure Lithuania wasn't part of the Soviet Union at the beginning um but there were portions of it that probably were >> so you have all these people running away and there's and uh and I I've like even heard from various historians like a criticism why the leave. Why? Because there's no future. If there's no future, if we know that the future is everyone's going to be underground, we just tell them to leave. But if you if you read a little bit about the history of where the fa of the the background of where the fa is coming from, um to leave means to abandon your children. You don't you know if this if the communists would tell you you could leave Russia, but you have to leave your babies behind. You don't leave your babies behind. And the yen of Russia um that was the cradle of I mean that the yen of Russia, not just the who came and saw the feet on a regular basis. All the yen of Russia were his children. So to to pick up and leave is is unthinkable. So the government is there. >> You point out that I think most Yidden in the world at that point lived in the Russian Empire. >> Yes, I I think so. Yeah. Um by that time America may already have been bigger but it was definitely in Europe it was the biggest. >> There's a says that that Russia right >> right? Yes. Yes. There is such a letter. Um I don't know at what point was >> I don't know if Debb was talking about then. No, you're right. It was Yudas. Yeah. I think I think it's about that that Goofa. So, so the fir is not leaving but then the events of Udamos happen and at the end the fir is forced to leave. So, and he writes the letter on on the train. is a very beautiful letter where he writes I don't remember if I remember the lion by heart but um that that that no uh no iron wall will that there won't be any um the the whatever the distance is the distance and and the whole the whole idea of being in is that is that it's very close to Russia and that he can still deal with Russian Jews and take care of them and and he's fundraising for them and he's writing letters to and the is not is not is not abandoning them abandoning them in any in any way. It just the now he's now he's stuck in Latvia. So that's that's where America comes in because when the freed left Russia he's now what's what's in Europe in there's there's Poland, there's Hungary, there's Latia. These are all places where Kabad is actually not not very commonly wellknown, >> not dominant. >> Not not dominant at all. And many of them never even saw they never even heard of Kabad. Um, yeah, >> I heard from um Shalom Crown Heights says his mother was from Lodge. They said my mother always used to say in lab in Lodge we never heard of Labavich. There was I think was was in Lodge I believe but there were some Labavage but that was the idea like in Russia everyone knows Labavage in Poland we never heard we never heard of Labavich. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was just this strange that there was a name like my my own grandfather also grew up in Romania Misha Greenberg and I don't think he they didn't even hear of forget about like they were just simple Jews they had never even the word for sure they never heard of and it's interesting because as like I once found an old book about Russian Jewish history in uh written in and it's like while Russian Jewish history is still happening and the guy is writing the history and he writes about the theidic movement of and and the different and he says there's is in Hungary and the Reb is in Poland. And he describes them, you know, as a as a as a as a historian might describe them. And then he says, but the Reb in Russia are different. And he's and there's three. There's three. There's the alterb, the he says the alterb was very famous in his leadership. And then he says that his son was considered more mush. I forgot the words in English, but and the grandson was again very very dominant. Now we it's it's actually we know described this thing about the that that he was that he uh that he he never looked at the at the at the face of a coin that he was from but it that didn't come as a to what he did for the colonial and everything but that's how he describes it in other words by him as far as the in Russia the are very very present so so the fba is now actually on that note so I just found a story of them about the it said that we wrote an article for about 's oldest son and he says that the one of the stories writes is that um he he used to go along with the to various things and there was once a meeting where the had there was and two ver came to the for for a uh for an arbitration or for just for how to how to how to make a partnership work and the mit wasn't happy about the state of the of the shamim of these two so he told them he told them very straight that um you know kinad and and you want me to help he told him very sharp and was sitting next to was sitting next to the and he felt uncomfortable and he decided he's going to help the situation so he started to tap his father's foot under the table to nudge him a little bit and the just and the way the story is written is that he says the was so he just said out loud's kicking me so but any anyways We're getting off topic. The the fidic is now is now in but everything about him is is about helping Russia and the yidden in Poland and in Latia and in all these new places they don't and maybe Latia is different but Poland and Hungary that's not their issue. That's not what they know about. That's it's the fab is like a new person showing up. They hear that there's Jews in Russia that are suffering and they're all willing to help but they don't really it's not it's not their story. But America is very unique because the all the Eden in America a vast majority of them were coming from the Russian Empire. So you have by then you have already millions upon millions of Jews who came to came from Russia. In the early years it was not people that were very excited about the Yiddish the were very against people moving here and and they uh and most of them did it like if they asked they they didn't they didn't really get but regardless there were tons and tons of Yuden millions of Yuden living here. These were all Russians. their parents were Russians or they were Russians or their grandparents were Russians and you have a huge amount of of no when they say that some had 600,000 it didn't mean that 600,000 people were coming for it meant that every you know the who came to the in those days were like the let's say the of a city the the people who were really a little more in the no but every in the town that they that they lived in knew that there's a rabba and they know that would take care of them and if they needed they wrote to thebah and uh but I mean but there still very simple Jews. That didn't change the situation. So they come now. So let's say their kids or grandkids come to America. They're Russians. They they they have an affinity for Russian jury. And also they have a very close relationship with Kabad. They know that the father, the grandfather, the great-grandfather either went either went to the Reba or saw the Reb when came to visit them. And they there's there's tons of in America. I believe there were when the freed was in jail and and and a good kabad was lobbying the American government to help the freed they wrote that there's 100 or 200ish and on on behalf of 200,000 followers the has 200,000 in America that wasn't a lie that wasn't an exaggeration there were 200,000 people belonging to harish maybe it was a slight exaggeration as as you can expect but there were many hundreds of thousands of Jews that were belong to harish and that had a history with with So it's only natural for the to say okay so now is if if we're working to help the Russian Jews where are you going to fund raise for them where you going to raise awareness for them it's going to be in America and that's why that's where the story that's why uh it looks like that's why it seems that he chose to come to America right then >> so the stop is on the way is I mean I know the rabb explained it once right the rabbi said that that all of the never went to period and And the Reb said and this that went is because he didn't have access to the because he couldn't be in Russia. So he went to the went to to the instead. So is that the reason is that the only reason that we know >> yeah yeah the said that said that too the also said that he's going to the it's clear it's clear in the in the writings obviously with the traveled a lot and the went to see everywhere. So when he goes to he's going to see the there and in America also he's obviously coming to visit the in America. That's obviously a big part of it. Um but I don't know if if if that would be if that would be the central reason. Now there is that was the official reason when the KBA um announced that he's coming to America. It's it's on behalf of Russian jury to raise awareness for Russian jury to raise funds for Russian jury. Um and but there was also the aspect that the fir was not looking to settle in all even the stationary says latia temporary the only always wrote that he was living there only temporarily so he was looking where is going to be the next place for for headquarters and la was Poland but we know that he was looking in America >> there's a that the would stay >> not only is it's a it's not only av it's it's it's obvious and it's documented And even in in those in the articles themselves that describe the fid's visit. So first of all they say that it's on behalf of Russian jury then also a lot of times you see that the fir is coming to see the state of of American jury. That's what the that's what like rashag explains it to one reporter. He wants to see what's going on in America because the tak started working I mean America in those days was a world away but even in the last final years he told the he told I think would say that he heard from that that we have to start looking at America and >> there were from told him to move to America like Jacobson right there's I think a few few people like that >> the they moved in the time of the I think we wrote in the that Axar seems seems to be the first person that moved to America with the permission of the with of any of the there were other there were people who came before there was his name was who was the head the center of all in in America but he didn't ask permission before he went he went and he he told that he's going and then he did a lot a lot of work on behalf of the of the in America before him there was also a kim Rosenbam there's a beautiful a very interesting book tells of he came to America too he came because he was running away from the Russian police they were trying to arrest him. He had already sat in jail um for helping Bach the draft. He came to America even before him there was Rabbi Vijitz I forgot his first name but he was a of the he was one of the editors of the when it came to print he was of the he was the of Moscow and then at some point the Russians kicked all the Jews out of Moscow so he came to America and he was the first he's the first known um serious of of that caliber that lived in America but that was all very very small and and very very little >> there were some more also there were >> later there was yes so So now when by the time the freed is coming once world war I broke out many many from people came many came too and now and after the Russian Russian revolution there was even more so by the time the fab was writing he's coming to America there's a very decent group there's Jacobson there was um Elliot Simpson I think lived here um there was a whole long list actually >> we just we just wrote about the Mhammed that lived in Worcester we just wrote about that in >> right right Mhammed I think um and there were many many other but of people like so the mameid is not someone that we know as part of I don't know if he has today but even from like the we know the families that are here there are already many that came um there was and Gordon came very early Simpson Jacobson and there was a whole long >> list also came earlyish >> shalom posner came yeah he was in stroll when the freed kebab visited stroll and I think he was doing brick laying and the freed kebab told him not to stay in stroll and to move to America and to open a to in America. So he came right then I believe he came very quickly right right while the f was in America. I think that's when they moved but I I could be mistaken. So but one of the reasons so the fir says that it's it's a it's a time to look into American jewelry. Um and that was something the fid already did years years before the um Axar's father was his name was Schllay and Axar. He was living in Marietta, Ohio in a little town here. And he and the wrote to him that there's there's 50 states and every one of those 50 states must have and he says it's it's only it's only a question of of the of connecting with all the people in 50 states and making in all 50 states and and and the basically tells him we have to have in all 50 states um in in tough pay bay or pay gimmel or pay that's when the fa writes writes to them. So the fif was already doing these this these but when so he comes to America it's it's to look into the state of American jury the part that they weren't saying publicly was part of what the fidic was looking for in the state of American jury was to stay here and to settle in America which is a very natural thing if all the Russian yed are transplanting themselves in America so it's very natural for the fidic's place to be in America however the yiddisher was was uh was in was not not up to par there was no it wasn't to make him yet that took many more years there was No, there was no there was no real um gathering of in a way that the fida felt that he could say apparently there's letters that were in where the writes not there's wrote letters to his daughter and he writes in those letters during the visit in America he writes I hear that you're that they're staying in America and that it's only a question of going back wrapping things up in Ria and moving to America he writes with a that that's what's happening and the over over the months in America in America started to ask and started to request and to put and make v and to make efforts to actually make it happen. But in the end said he's not he's not ready to come he's not ready to stay and there's a few reasons but he ended up going back to to Warsaw and it's right >> so one reason the writes is that he told Jacobson many years later that mine Indian is and when he came to America it was also was coming and he was fundraising money and he was raising awareness and he felt that that's not the the the image that he wants the to show up but that's it doesn't it doesn't fit what he wants. wanted to do. So it was it was on the wrong it was the wrong style. Basically it was the wrong approach and he wanted to do it separately. There's another one where the just said that the is not is not there. And when the wrote to that he's not staying in America, he said keep on making keep on working on working on all these things. And the implication is pretty clear that as as soon as America is is an appropriate place um for for the to come and to open for example then he's going to do it immediately. And intestral Jacobson spoke the told Jacobson that he's coming to America. They already made plans right before World War II broke out. It it so happens to be at the exact same time that Jacobson brought the American from in in Poland. In other words, as as soon as there's enough there's a nucleus of people to make a in America, you see at the exact same time the fir is uh is is planning a visit is planning to move to America. >> So you're say you're saying that the fidic was planning on moving to America in 1939 regardless of the war. regardless of the war the says in um that in in one of the early I think by the in during the war the says I didn't come here as a refugee and when you hear that it's strange what what do you mean you didn't come here as a refugee you came here as a refugee you was saved out of the war but the fidica had already had plans to move to America someone once argued to me that the fidic had already given the power of attorney to Jacobson to move the fir's library to America in he already been he had already been makna his library of America during that visit of Abis Jacobson I haven't seen it printed I didn't look too hard but >> during a visit to Poland >> to during Jacobson's visit from America to Poland if spoke to him about the move to America and there was already plans to get visas for the fida's family and for a group of bakim and a group of to come to America and all the plans were the plans were in motion and the war broke out in middle of those plans when and the plans didn't have a chance to to to actually happen so when the fir kebab arrived he didn't wasn't he wasn't here as a refugee he was moving to America because he wanted to move to America to bring Kabal and to do and to tuf in America and uh it just so happened unfortunately that uh you know the that uh that the war broke out in middle and the freed had to be saved from the Nazis. >> Oh okay. >> Yeah. >> Okay. So back to uh 1929. >> Yeah. So the fir is coming to America and there's one there's a very very interesting resource of descriptions of the fir's visit here. So in general it's very interesting that in initial the there's beautiful descriptions of everything but the what's even more is that there's the and there's and and there's a yum a detailed yan from the who traveled around because was from a place it had a lot of there. So when theba came it was it was theba coming they did whatever do around theba in America there were some here but the was traveling for 10 months and it's there's nothing of the sort there's many many spoke in every single city countless times and we have very very few from there um there's not that many either that which usually himself wrote but he didn't write everything but what there is is amazing amazing uh newspaper descriptions because the the Jewish press in America was very very excited Um this is a this is a major major figure. It's very interesting. I I I was trying to see if is there any other um you know Jewish figure man use whatever term you want that had that type of reception when the like like the had in 1929. The the amount of the thousands of people that came out in every city after city time after time thousands and thousands of people literally thousands. Um it's just it's mindboggling and the excitement and there's all because you know if if a pb came how many of the Russian Jews knew this specific if if came kn say there but but when the came it was this is the that they all heard about from their grandparents and great-grandparents and great-randparents it's that same dynasty it's the same in it's and to top it all off this is right after the fikba had been had been very very famous in being in Russia itself as the only Jewish leader who's in Russia fighting the communists and the one who's keeping Yiddish and that he was arrested and he was imprisoned and he was released and that was in world news. So the fir was that it was like it was like a a pinnacle of fame that everybody everyone in the world knew about the fir at the time and what's even more interesting is that because it was right then the fika had it no didn't really exist as a huge institution anywhere else so all the regular politics that happens when you have an institution um didn't exist then it's not like like if today if if the rebba would come in any in any specific city well you would have the reformed synagogue who's offended by the here and like there's all the natural politics politics that would happen in a place based on whatever the mists are. But when the fika comes to America, there's none of that. It's only excitement. >> It's unknown. The only people that weren't so excited is that Jacobson writes that the heads of the joint were afraid of the fir's influence. So they tried to to block the richest American Jews from meeting the fir. They tried to to dampen the enthusiasm. But >> wasn't wasn't wasn't the joint uh contributing to the fidic financially? >> Yes. Yes. the joint was supporting the entire Russian efforts. But that's what he writes. He writes that I don't remember exactly which organization >> maybe they wanted maybe they wanted to control it instead of >> that could be. Yeah. Yeah. He writes that they were they were afraid of the kebab's influence and they they tried to dampen the excitement a little bit. But in the regular the regular people this was very very exciting. You have pictures of full Hebrew schools coming like full you know schools kids in in um Rabbi Landanda from St. Louis made a beautiful article on kabador about gab's visit to St. Louis. You see all the they brought all the kids in a choir with flags and like all the regular Jewish community people. Everybody was coming. Everyone was coming to see the Reba. It was it was a it was an excitement like no other. And you see you have all these beautiful newspaper descriptions. But what you also have is letters from the himself to she didn't come along on the on the trip. So it means the kebab was away from from the for a whole year. So he writes these beautiful beautiful letters to her. It's very different than his own yuman. The kebab's yan in those years is very very short. He just writes like scheduling two hours for a mime. He prepared a mime. He ded he wrote letters. He just writes like a schedule pretty much. But in these letters he writes with a full with a full description of everything that's going on. And he writes also like it's almost surprising to write how candidly he's writing to see how candidly he's writing about the success and how about how many people and he always ends off a thousand people came 500 people came to 2,000 people came. He writes that that they say that American Eden are quick to warm up and quick to cool off. So, and it see it seems like almost I like he in other words is there for a whole year. So the vidg is trying to give her a taste of what is really and and what what's being accomplished and like in the opening letter is he writes uh it's very interesting how he says that on the on the ship to America you know usually the fa traveled a lot he didn't always travel with a big entourage he traveled with a few people so he has a cabin on a ship and then if you don't sit in the cabin all day you go sit on the deck or you sit in a writing they had writing rooms and the fa would sit with a kav or with papers or with whatever he was you doing to write or to learn or to read and he just and and he said he was always com and he writes that he's always comfortable. He doesn't doesn't care that people stare at him. He always gets stairs because the fab was coming with a kapata usually you sit with his sisters open and a yamaka and a beard and and he doesn't look like any like anything of the of the regular people there. So he gets some stairs but he does he minds his own business and nobody bothers him. Then he writes that on the ship the same thing happened but at some point like two days before they arrive in America all of a sudden when he came out to the deck he noticed that the whole ship was staring at him. The people were whispering, things were going on. There was a big around who around his his the being there. And then he writes that later he heard that the captain of the ship had just received a message from from land saying that before you come into the harbor, there's going to be you're going to stop there's a boat's going to a small boat, a tugboat's going to come meet you and there's a very important personage on your on your ship and he's going to be taken out um on this boat instead of going through the regular customs of Ellis Island or where wherever it wherever it would have been. and he's going to get his like VI he's there someone's getting VIP treatment and he heard that he told people on the ship suddenly the there's a VIP person on the ship and and the says he walked out and all of a sudden he sees everybody staring at him and uh nothing and nothing happened but then and then he came to America he came to America >> didn't get very um sick on the trip on the boat >> that that's a story about Dr. they that well he was no actually it probably wasn't that ship so the freed left to come to America but the way you did that was through Europe he went on a ship back to Berlin in Berlin he met with and and other in Berlin and then he went from there from Berlin he came to America >> so it's really an independ so the trip to Israel is an independent trip >> he didn't go back to Liga >> but I'm saying it's back to Europe anyway came back to Europe. Exactly. Yeah. In the middle there was there was a few days that he was in in Berlin. At some point the gave the I don't know if it was before or it was before America. So the story I'll tell you the story of Dr. Val and then I'll tell you this thing that the with do I think I don't remember I don't read I don't have the story from the sources. It's a story that's told but I imagine it was on the ship from right after the fir left was the was the pram invit the the massac >> the 1929 massacres >> and it was right after the kebab had visited and had been at Mars >> and so when the fa heard about on the ship he got very very sick he felt terrible and Dr. Vik was there on the ship Dr. was the very famous doctor of the hospital in your shalim and he was on a trip. So I imagine this is out of he was an guy. So he's leaving on the ship and they say that he asked the for a tick afterwards and the said why do you need a tick? He took care of me and the and he said if if the is if I wouldn't have been on the ship the would have never allowed you to become sick in the first place. So that's how he wanted a tick for being present there. So in in Berlin the the rebba came there the rebba was living in Berlin and the fidic came there and and gave all the >> and by the way when the left for example the put theba in charge of during that's a whole another thing and recently and recently a newspaper article came out about that oh I didn't see that there's a letter I didn't see didn't see that article there's a new article that came out just now before Gamuz and it's the title I believe is the Reb the student. >> Oh, interesting. >> Basically writing about the Reb who's not the Reb yet, >> right? But he's fearing God. know that that there's this there's a this student the student rebces describes that you know how the reb looks but like like a like a like like a like a reb >> and a very nice >> the main letter is is a beautiful description of that I think we printed it many years ago maybe 10 years ago or so in the ran the whole the whole thing uh And writes writes to theb that he's pained that you'll he says I'm pained that you'll never ever see this side of the because in because because in front of you he's always so you'll never you never >> he writes directly he says I feel sad that you'll never see this side of of of >> yeah and so but but during that's tba was there during t so the gave theb all the to for safekeeping during his during his trips. Someone told me something very interest all the had suitcases or one suitcase where he kept all the of all the of the all the early whatever he had whatever kept those weren't part of the regular library that was a special suitcase or or or a few suitcases that he kept all the were there and he and he took and he watched over like it was in the room in the by the was it was behind this chair in the fireplace there was a it looks like a fireplace it's a closed fireplace there's that was where the were held So during his trip to America the gave it to theb and that's when the made all the of and that's when he made copies of B and all all the that printed later because all many of those I hope I'm not mixing up a few stories here but those were later stuck during from after when the when the camp ran away from the Nazis many many of them got stuck there and they only came back with the with the from Poland that I believe you wrote about um maybe 15 years ago in the deer a very interesting article. >> Yeah. So there there was no there so all all they had was copies. Yeah. So we had some Yeah. >> Right. So we only had the copies copies. And what's interesting is someone told me that that in the if you look in there's things missing there. Not only the from America are missing because nobody was there to write them but even the said in America before leaving he took with him the he wanted to base the off of the says that any said it's based on a mime from the previous generations or a few so he took with him the specific he had he took whatever he wanted for the year so when the wrote all the there's there's missing mascals from the collection and if you look carefully it's the same as that says in America. That's just an interesting an interesting aside about what the Reba had. >> But why didn't want to take them with him to America? >> I would imagine it was probably a safety thing you know you know on a long journey and who's going to be you know I thought he probably was probably more safe in in Berlin. >> Okay. So yeah the freed kebab came and they said he came to America it was you based right before he came to America that's that's that's when the visit started among is brought to you by we live in a chaotic world a world where for us is we do not have the ability to hear and see the on a daily basis yet we know that the is with us and is alive and thriving more than ever before. One needs to only tap into it. Provides you and your family with the tools necessary to tap into all of this. Whether it's the monthly magazine, the way it all began, whether it's their hair books, their hair online content, and so much more. 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Enjoy the rest of the podcast. And you see from the very beginning another interesting thing I don't know if we wrote much about this in the article is that the there's a small group of >> in the current article and the article the article was written it's coming out in so there's a small group who have to take care of the Jacobson is the main person and he also wrote his there was so there were people like Kramer who was the head of he wasn't a he was a balbas and there was a mandeluction was another I think that's that was his name I think it was a luxan that was the head of on as he was the that was the head of a and there was a few a bunch of young and suddenly you know is coming how do you how do you treat the rebba the is showing up you have to make sure that theba has a place to stay and the is fed and and like whatever you would think and they're going out of their minds how in the world are we going to take care of the rebba and the was coming you know the people that usually took care of the gash of the fikba weren't there because that was his family and then is staying home and and no one else is coming. It was came with and a few a few uh a few other people in in his entourage. was Mhaduben came at the beginning for a short period of time the freed's uncle was there also during the visit for I think a period of the visit and the two secretaries Lieberman and and itcha sorry and kachagen >> they were yeah so those the two secretaries they came a week early to help set things up and they were okay so the had to try to figure out where are we going to where's the going to stay so Alia Simpson Simpson had was the and they had just built a to shar park and there was an apartment on top of the shaw where he was going to live and they said perfect we have a shaw we have an apartment for a living he had it was brand new so he said it's perfect and and Rabbi Simpson was excited that the fid was going to inaugurate his own home that that's the biggest cover in the world and and the problem was that they they saw they the suspected that this is not masim for the this is not masim for royalty I don't know how I don't know exactly why they don't say Why? >> The apartment. >> The apartment. Maybe it was too small. Maybe maybe it was just simple, but the had this this feeling that that when when the comes to town, it's past that there's a there's a little apartment on top of a shaw. It looks like like a little and a little paleb who has a who has a who has a a sh in his dining room. And that's the whole story. There's something there that wasn't that wasn't up to par for what was past when the ever comes. and and and Israel Jacobson writes that he tried to bring it up and they it was part of the discussion but Khazak Kramer the head of Kabad I mean he was basically the one paying or I guess he was running it and he didn't understand and he says Jacobson says that that Kramer himself had never met before he was came from a kabad town in in Europe but he was living in he was in America he was now living in America he had never come from he didn't come from family so all he had met >> I thought the Kramer I thought the Kramers are kabad family >> no no they weren't they came from a kabad that had a lot of so they had a lot of them and they knew like they got the the the they related well to but I don't think they themselves were from a family not at least what from what Rabbi Jacobson writes. How did they become the the go-to people? >> They needed a and a bar to be involved in in a he was very close with anyway because they because in those days people were close with their lansman. If you came from the same town you joined the shak you know there's there was these were like they were these were city sh people were close with the people where they came from. So Kazak was close with so they so they they brought him in and he became the balas and he and he was very helpful. It wasn't like but he but but Jacobson says he didn't get he says in his mind was just another one of the gut that come to America to fundra and you know they're they're people they come they they do their fundraising and they go and he in his mind he said the is the greatest of these he didn't appreciate that that this is on on a whole this is a whole different this is a whole different story so and then but then the freed came and tak and and le they moved to they moved it so you see in the video The freed stands on the second floor of a balcony and he looks down and he says to the crowd that's by that's but very quickly yeah that's in barbar but very quickly they moved and they moved to a house >> he did stay there >> he stayed there for a little bit and they realized right at the beginning that this past and they quickly moved to a house in Crown Heights which doesn't exist anymore um I think it's on Brooklyn and St. John's where uh anash.org just had a whole article on all the different places where the fir stayed and spoken by super wrote a very nice article and he has all the pictures there and he writes there that this it just happens to be that the same house later was bought by the baba and that was his house it's just interesting but the fika was in that house >> because when the baba his headquarters was in crown heights >> yeah he lived in crown heights in the early years >> yeah yeah so that was their that was their headquarters I guess >> and that house doesn't exist anymore >> no house to house it's a building it's a building now I believe it's a building or or something like that >> but then it was a nice house. I saw the picture from the >> Yes. A big beautiful home. >> Yeah. And you can see right away that it's a that that it's much more malic than the original place that they had which was a stable in an apartment. And I'm sure it was it was okay and decent, but it wasn't it wasn't what they needed. And you saw Jacobson writes even more that that they didn't understand how to keep a place like he said he said we were baton that's what he writes about himself at the like when he was writing the story and he says that they didn't know how to prepare food. They didn't know how to. So at at some point they don't know how to keep keep a place clean and they realized that this is a big problem. This like they didn't know what they're doing. So they finally they hired someone. They hired a bach who was worked in one of the highest highass hotels and knew how to knew how to serve a meal and knew how to set up a place and knew how to so come when they when they bring food to the fika it should be like on the highest level anywhere. And and he and he told them he he saw the kebab. he would bring the food to the vidba and and he said later that he told them that um table manners are at the highest level of even the most aristocratic circles and which which confirmed to Jacobson that didn't know what he was doing like but but and the other and the other problem he writes is that that didn't eat the he writes that would complain to him when he walked he came once to see the to see the rebba after they came back from a visit to another city he came back to New York and he comes to says He doesn't know what to do. The fika doesn't eat anything. And the first thing was that on a day the fidic kebaba came to a new town he would fast. And when he came to Chicago and 10,000 people come out to see see the fa on the streets and then he would go to there would be a big where more thousands more people would come see him and then people would come for that day the wouldn't eat anything and Jacobson says that he heard from this ink that the said maybe he heard this even from the you have to fast out cover on a day the got covered he didn't eat anything and that was just was a rule there's no food >> yeah because because it was think if if he was getting covered and based not us to imagine what what the feels like but whenever there was the didn't eat and and uh and then even after that wasn't eating the in I think in the himself he writes on pes which pes was extra because of all the that what wanted to eat on the ate only the shurim of sudas and by the there basically didn't eat anything else and some hot water and on one day or maybe two days he ate like two hard-boiled eggs that boiled up that didn't eat and was going crazy and he said he felt he felt like is here is on his because there's no one else and but which is going to tell the you have to eat I that's not something that do and Jacobson writes that he and he gathered the courage and he went into and he told he he said told that the are not here to watch on your health and and and we're all very worried and should eat the shouldn't uh shouldn't fast so much and the basically mucked them up and he said I don't need the food whatever and he said yeah told him taka when you made your wife made I tak last night we came back I ate one from that that your wife made you know that he had that they had made sure that they had worked very hard to prepare so the says like you know his wife worked hard the say I ate one but only one and not not the whole thing and and it's very interesting to see this whole the whole description and it continued throughout the throughout the whole visit where the the close are struggling on how do you how do you treat the reb like what what are we doing here >> there was there's one forward article that I that that a very interesting forward article where the forward correspondent in Washington DC >> farsv yeah the yiddish fars which you've imagined is not exactly a newspaper that is excited about from yidden or mitsus and anything like that so the correspondent in Washington wrote an article about his his visit with the Gerba in Washington. At the very end of the visit, Did GBA came to Washington DC and met with President Hoover. >> President Hoover. Yeah. >> Met with President Hoover. He said it was to thank President Hoover for his efforts on behalf of the Jewish people and for the Jews of Russia. >> And there's no details about the meeting, at least not printed. Maybe somebody has and I I have don't have access to that, but there's no details of what actually happened in the meeting. It just we know that the Freed went there and spoke and met with the president. So, but this forward uh reporter writes writes a whole article and he describes a whole how he imagined how disappointed he would be. He thought that an old an old-fashioned Reb from the from the old world is going to come see the president bushes is going to be because the American Jews in those days were all about fitting in. And if you know if he didn't if he didn't do exactly what the American thing, it was considered very embarrassing. It was it was very very embarrassing. So, he was traumatized. Here's going to come and visit the president. What's he going to do here? It's it's a disaster. And and then he comes and then he comes and he then he writes how how how how impressed he was and how he's had he withd 15 minutes then he spoke with hashag for a few hours and he writes how he's speaking to intelligent people. He says the kebab is such an intelligent person and such a spiritual person and was so beautiful and and he was so impressed. He's so well spoken and then but then he said he was disappointed. He was terribly disappointed because he looked in the field's hotel room. He saw matzas and he said matzas, old Jewish matzas in a fancy Washington DC hotel room. He couldn't believe that the like you're bringing matzas into the hotel room and he says at the end he says in his conversation with the firba the told he mentioned about a certain Jew and he told the heart he's a Jew with his entire heart. So the told him I'm not impressed with a Jew who's You see, you have to be a Jew with all with the entire your entire body too. In other words, you have so and then he says, "And as I'm listening to the Reb say these words and I said I thought to myself and for sure you mean that a Jew with a whole body means you have to mus into the fancy into the fancy Washington DC hotel room hotel room." And he he was traumatized, terribly traumatized. And then he says how he went he took Rashag and a few of the other people there to a a kosher restaurant in Washington DC to eat something and and he says and he was again disappointed because in a fancy establishment you take off your hat but the rabb the Rashag sat with is he calls it he he has some some funny name I don't I don't remember what but for the the top hat that had a tall hat that he wore in America a top hat and and he says that Ashag sat with a hat the entire time he didn't take off take off your hat and and he said he was very very disappointed that I mean that that was the the extent of his disappointment there but again you see the freeding Nazis in Washington DC that was just an an interesting aspect of this of the of the entire trip. Um so what what was the um what was the fundraising efforts like the fidic met with the vision people came to the fik like what was the what was that >> the fundraising efforts were mainly the the main fundraising efforts were appeals that they would make in every city there was an official announcement in the newspapers that the vap is going to come to us to whatever schol and he's going to he's going to speak and there's going to be appeals and it was a very formal event, you would have one of the very big shs of the city. They would have they would find one of the biggest shores, one of the biggest fume shaws and you would have thousands of people there and usually usually there was more people that then that the sh could handle and there would be a series of speakers in we have a description of Detroit, a description of St. Louis there's a description of Chicago uh where the fidic where the there would be a speaker who would introduce another speaker and then introduce another speaker and they would speak about labavish in Russia and they would speak about what the fir did in the Soviet Union and they would speak about the fidic in general like one reporter says how the fidic was then introduced by someone who knew the reb by rabbi fine who knew rabish back in Russia and he had some interesting things to say about the matter and then they would introduce the fikba and it's in some articles it looks like the fidic would sit there a whole time in some articles it looks like 50 would show up at that point. But that was like a moment of electric shock. The when the the is coming is standing up. Everybody would stand up and look and look to see. In one in one article they say the fa that everybody stood the entire time while the fa was talking like a like a 770 the everybody was standing and and everybody. So, so in these events the fidic would give a speech and he would speak about the Eden in Russia or about and he would speak about in America and about mitzvah and he and there's little snippets in the descriptions where one one article says how the fir said that when it comes to Russian jury it's better less words and more action. In other words, the fit could is can't come. He's fundraising for Russian jury but at the same time he knows that if he's going to speak out against the Russian government, they're going to know immediately and they can have retribution against the in Russia. So the video is always being very careful what to say and what not to say. And another time it says how he speaks how how American Jews you need to know that you can be yid in America and you can be in America and you can do misses here and uh and you have to strengthen Yiddish kite. And part of that entire event there would be an appeal. One of the rabbis gets up and says we're making an appeal for Russian Jews. And people would pass take out money. I mean appeals there was no credit cards or anything. It was all cash on the spot. So everybody took out cash. Maybe they had checks. I'm sure they had checks too. So people would right away just pass up money from the rafters and from the from the vibers shell and from the back of the shaw. Money would just come get thrown to the front and they would collect it. And the the problem was the sad thing was when the two months after the feed car came was the stock market crash and the great depression of 1929. So a lot of people did not have a lot of money. So and the results were actually very very un not what what what they hoped for. In one description in in Detroit they say they collected $800 that night. In St. Louis they got $1,600. And in those days that was a lot more money but this wasn't to what the fa was actually hoping to get to get from American Jews for for Russia. But so that was that was the appeal. >> We have do we have for the where he writes this? How do we know this? >> The it's this is this is widely reported and it's I think it's pretty much common knowledge. I I can't remember right now if it's in the articles. Yeah. >> Yeah. I I heard the same thing. I'm just wondering if we have anything from the Fidic about this. >> I don't think I don't recall offhand seeing anything from the fida a disappointment. When was the crash? When was the crash? It was um >> It was in time. >> I don't remember the English date, but I looked I I matched it with Hebrew dates. It was the became orim and it was on it was in time right after. So the was and he didn't travel anywhere until until after until you know >> he started the traveling. >> So the traveling and the real fun happened after the great depression. And there was also there's also one aspect is that you know Reb is not a fundraiser. a good fundraiser um you know to fund his money you do whatever you need to fund his money and some people you know so what you do what whatever whatever it takes um but the is the so he he doesn't come to fund raise his money I think the reb once said a whole sharp lion that he doesn't fund raise his money the word fundraising even was like a fret lash so the so in Detroit there's a story that there's a a person isor star who was later close with rabish with bar shamin in Detroit so he wrote his description of what he remembered from the visit. He was a boy. He was a bakar from a Nusari family and he was the translator in Yehikis during the visit to Detroit. And he said that a message came from a A who claimed to have been the Fidik's classmate in in Russia in in Lubavage and he said he's going to give $100,000 if the Fed will come visit his home. And the fir said that he freak thought about it and then came back and said that um there's many worthy people that that are deserving of visits and and to give to do it for money would would would make them would would put down all the people that the very worthy people said he doesn't want to make any any differences. if he wants he can make the donation and he'll get a letter of appreciation but the care was not coming to his house and that donation obviously never happened and from hearsay I've heard from people that that heard from people like the way the story was told in Detroit that from what Isidor star told over is that and he didn't write this in in his I don't have it on paper but he that it was also about shabas that this wasn't shabas and the fidic comes to a place and is telling everyone to be shabas upon that he goes to the guy who grew up apparently with to freed himself in Labavage maybe he was in Labavage and now he's not shame shave upon said is going to give the only visit in Detroit is going to be to this guy so that's the type of thing the type of problems you have when when is when people are giving money I mean it it was yanagel ultimately it it wasn't it didn't bring meet with certain special people like didn't he meet justice Brandeise >> yeah yeah there was there were trips that made special trips there were meetings that he made with specific people that You know about you know about Justice Brandes. >> Yes. Yes. I think I think it's it's in it's in Kabad. They write about it. There was other people there was planned meetings and he met with the Jewish leadership. >> There's a whole story. There's a whole story about this and a shout out to Rabbi Ley Mendelo who uh told me about this little anecdote which I didn't check. I didn't I didn't corroborate this but apparently when the freedise was was instrumental in helping the freed escape from the Nazis >> later. Now apparently when the fir was in met with >> Yeah. >> And there's a whole story because mother was >> family. So she asked for she was there. >> Yeah. And the freed asked Cook who he should be going to visit in in the US >> and I think I thought for fundraising purposes but I'm not sure and apparently cook told you he should meet Justice >> Brandeise very interesting >> so and met him and then later he was instrumental in helping fra >> come out of Nazi Germany. Yeah, I think so. If I'm very interesting, if I everyone should please double check if I got the whole story right, but some >> I didn't see that story. There were definitely meetings. The fat definitely went to meetings with major leadership. But in a regular city, he came there was the appeal and then people came for many many people came for there was a never- ending line of people who would come for and it's that I think one of but in other words the it seems like the money side was a disappointment but what was not a disappointment was the was the Yiddish guide side. Thousands of people came to see the and people went into and they came out with there was the started in places. There were the the effect is unbelievable. You see it in the newspaper articles how they say young women who who seem to who seem to be far from Yiddish the reporter says these women seem to be far from Yiddish like the north pole to the south pole and yet they come and they promise to that they're going to keep Tybach or they're going to keep Shabas or they're going to keep something whatever Mrs. Kebab told him to keep and the and the firms himself writes you have also a lot of descriptions which is very special besides for these appeals that would make like the upon and the appeals the would say and they would be at a special announcement there was usually in a was in whatever given city the harsh in those days were very big in the in Brownsville that had 1200 seats like today people know like I know here in Cleveland there's a harish called which is a tiny sh it probably I I know if they have if they can fit in 100 people but um but that's probably a newer shaw and the the the previous version of that shaw probably had many more seats that's that's like in the downtown areas where there are no no anymore so there are big shs and it would say >> all over the place also in Canada Toronto had big or something like that and they would have they would put out notices that the is going to say or and and people would come and you know Everybody would the the the fed care would come in. There would be crowds of people crushing and and there would be too many people outside and inside and the whole the whole sh would be packed to the rafters and the fikare would come in and there's all long descriptions how he he walked in slowly and carefully and he would sit down at the at the head usually you know where they have the kushva seats at the at the front of a sh in those days or maybe on the bimma and he would sit for a few minutes in utter silence thinking bean and the whole show would be you know standing there quiet totally quiet and then he would start the mimer and he would say a mime and the are and the says how he writes he says the mimm always have that everyone can understand even if it's not everything and you look at my from America talk very very easy although there's still there's still my there are certain pieces that I'm sure not everyone understood and they and it would be a mime let's say for an hour 45 minutes an hour and a half the my in those days were long and afterwards people would and it was it was a very very special thing you can see you can tell from the descriptions that that there's this is something that the Jews in America never really experienced to be by to see to see to to to to be like like in presence the of that was some it was very very powerful and people would later or they were kaza things over to their shoulds or to the people that you know whatever said and which parts and everybody would compete you know did who understood what and how much did you understand and one of the most special things is is the is the is the people who themselves had been you have Russia was America was full of old alieden who had themselves gone to rabim previously even it was their braashab their marash even perhaps and you also had of the other streams of Kabad. You had Kapos there. You had you had there were people from all of those places and some of and like Babis the last branch of Kapos that that before before none of those streams existed was was Babiskay he passed away only five years six years before this visit. He passed away in tishim. This is tish testic. So you have tons of these people that are 40, 50, 60 years old. They had been to lab. They they had experienced all of this with their parents and and they and the newspaper articles describe how they're they're they're there and they're just in tears and they're they're emotional like like it this is this is it's the most emotional thing that has ever happened to them. one in Chicago there's one description a reporter says he sees an old Jew standing there with his kids and his anak and he's dancing and he's excited and he's he's crying and what are you so excited about and he said I can't wait to see the the is going to come I saw his grandfather I saw I saw their marash and he says you want to know why I'm not why I'm so old why I'm 90 years old today because every time I saw their marash I got another 10 years of life that's what it meant to see the and now and I saw I knew his son I knew the and now I'm going to see the and he started dancing and and you see this again and again and again of the in his own diaries in his own letters letters primarily he writes you see him he writes how he sees when he walks out when he shows up in the train station when his face appears and the looks of people he sees how people are crying and excited all at the same time that that the the emotions were overwhelming they so excited to see the and they're and it brought back such memories such strong memories from home And and the freed always writes how like that it should be pile and that should have a pull in that these people should taka stay connected afterwards and there were talking many people that that that changed after in in the years following and had a much stronger when the ultimately came to settle in America for some reason I don't you don't see such a thing of like the outreach to to all over the US or maybe maybe because the fidic just didn't travel as much. First of all, he did go and he went to Chicago. I guess maybe the fik wasn't traveling as much. Yeah, the ka barely traveled when he came to America and and maybe like you like like like I said the ka said that that time he came as and this time he came as but you do see there were letters and there were connections when the fir went to Chicago part in toughen bays on the itinerary was to visit the shimar that he had told people to start in in the in the in the previous visit they had they had been biny light there that came to visit the fida and the fid told me you have to start a shimara and they had a shimar for a long time And 10 years later the freed is coming back 12 years later and he's going to come visit he's gonna come visit this gimmar he's gonna reun and but lashes passed away and that that that trip was cut off and the visit never happened but you do you do see that and it's and it's you see also that types of connections and the years later by the too but it the the sad thing is that many of these people they were basically a dying breed if they were already 40 50 60 70 years old in all likelihood their children were no longer um had no longer had the same shas like they had and many of these people just went off either they came back or they went off and assimilated and and you know we don't have a shas with them anymore so that process was already happening when by the time the freed came and tes Jews had started had been coming to America for 50 years so the process of assimilation but it happened but it was already it was already in full swing so you had either the caught them in 10 years later you have to catch them again or you know there's already less there's 10 years less of people that are that are there to work with and uh and that that's the reality like even here in in Cleveland my great-grandparents Zman came here Zman Shik and they came they he became the of the schol from back in Russia and who had I think they were capisters in in back there but he was the president of the Harish uh where's the family today I mean >> they were related to to >> they were related to us yes they were my my great-grandfather's cousin or second cousin or third cousin they there was a family that we was the madi family that that they knew and they knew they had a relationship's family but over the generations either either you know the way the said I think says that that when he speaks about that that we know that pretty much there's a three generation four generation rule that if that either you have if you if if the parents and the grandparents are not going to have at some point the grandchildren are just going to be lost and we we have no we have no shakas with them anymore So, and you see you see that all over and you see that unfortunately with a lot of the people in in uh in Yeah. There's someone that I know that has a whole thesis how basically um how so many famous Jews in America are mish direct descendants of the like uh and and related to to other people you know so for every person you know there's many family members or relatives that uh that were were already here and uh eventually assimilated. >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean, it's the same thing was true about Russia, too. That that many of >> I know I know I know I'm not going to say any names, but I know a few people where I live here that have labe names, Americanized versions of like very famous lab names and the taka related. I mean, >> there's also towns. There's a you know there similar things, similar names. There's many many yes there's no question. So the fidic there was making the shapesh. I mean there is a continuation in tapes sadik. This Isador star in Detroit for example he was the translator for the fir during his visit in Tes well um his family came he came from family his father he writes when the heard the when they heard the was coming that it was a simple in his house it looked like a yumpt if you would walk inside that's the the level of excitement even though his father had never seen the or any of the other but then he later he writes that he was at the inauguration of I don't know what exactly the connection was over over the years. But you see he had a sh with then he came later to the and and he saw and he was by that whatever the or the or the inauguration and later he had a shas with the when they came to when they came to Detroit. So the shas is there you definitely see pieces of shas everywhere. Um in the article about St. Louis Rabando has their very interesting thing where where while the fa was in St. Louis there was a few women who were upset that there was no good mikvah in St. Louis. They and you know in those days Jews know how to build beautiful shs. Beautiful beautiful beautiful shs were everywhere in America. But a good mikvah that nobody cared about. So while the fik was sitting in the shaw with a thousand people there these a few women started making a make noise from the vber. They started banging with the with the benches or something and the fake looked up to see what the ruckus was about and they called down that St. Louis needs a mikvah. So the firva said okay we're going to make there's going to be a mikvah. He made a he made a committee and he left them and he gave them a few rolls of pennies to give out to anyone that donates to the mikvah. So they had a dinner afterwards and they had fundraising and people got the pennies and whoever was the committee they they they gave out the pennies with a little card that had a picture of the fir there's a picture of the fik in a spodic standing over a bookshelf with a safer like this from like the early years in the early ps and they say um they say this coin it says in this coin was given by to anyone who donates to the mikvah and it should be and he said there should be for anyone who holds this this coin and and Ravi Lando he writes that that he he he he didn't get it from from nowhere there was a family in St. that still has the coin and still has the connection and they have a sh of the so the there is the long-term as you do see but of course for for um you know if someone came and saw the care once for five minutes I mean after but but over generations the it's the unfortunate reality is is is the is the the assimilation of Jews in America that's that's the that's the that's that's what we're doing right that's that's what we're trying to that's what we're trying to fight >> it continues um what are some of the other highlights of the felic trip. He went, didn't he go to Wisconsin also? >> Felic went to met Wisconsin. He went to Chicago for a very long time and from Chicago, he went for a short time to Milwaukee. After Chicago, he went to Detroit and St. Louis. Those were like short visits just for a few days or even for a few hours for a few days. Um then he also went to Boston and he went to he went um many many cities. I don't remember all of them. in every city. He went from Schul to Schul all over New York. Um >> Mhm. >> He was but he was based in New York the whole time. >> Yeah. Yeah. There it was based in New York. The cab was based in New York. >> Come back. >> So Incran Heights was was the official house and Rabbi Jacobson says that even though once they realized that even that they're not sure the how to really fear on fears with so they they decided that a hotel is better and they just went to a hotel that still actually exists today. You can I don't know what it looks like today but on the article on ash.org They had a they had a picture of it and they have the address there where the care would often go to hotel for a few days and but tish was in was in that house in Kits and the tish was very very special because there was lots came that had been there previously and and and and younger generations everybody came to see um you know what's going to be what you know how does how does the do do and beforeash delegation came from the biggest harishel in Brownsville that had 1200 seats and they asked the fid to come down by him and the fidg agreed big a big shaw and the freed ke dav there rashashashana three hours on rashana night and he and he came there when he came to he says that when he came down the street to walk into the shaw every window was open every balcony was full of people looking out uh he came with the shy with spadik and uh and he'd rash for three hours and when he turned around there were still he said there was 3,000 people in the shaw and when the fika turned around there were still a thousand people there waiting to say to the fikba and Jacobson writes that he met someone 20 years later that said I that I'll never forget to the day I die I'll never forget the cries that that we heard from the fir on that that rashashana the the cries that you were able to hear from wall to wall you were able to hear the ding and so there was rash and he said a he said two there on the second night then matashana and the entire city came to hear the mim and yum kipper was there to yum kipper the kebab just stayed in the shaw for rashashana it's brownsville they had to get a special place for him to stay in Brownsville for rashashana but yum kiper the fir kebab stayed in the shaw the entire 24 and the and sukas was done in Kits and they had a big suka there and there was many many people there's many descriptions of all the fibbrangans that and there's a and there's some kebab writes how however writes in his own letter that he was sitting by in the in the big room in the in the in the home there and everybody they were they were selling ata and the kebab said he was sitting towards the wall which is exactly like by in they used to sell all the all theim and the sat facing the wall by his place like not not being involved. So the fid writes how he's sitting facing the wall and he decided that hakaf is going to be just like in lab there's going to be no differences. So and there was there was the full akaf the fik would dance the first and the last hakafa and then everyone else danced in between. I think in those years everyone used to dance for the other hakafas in a circle. In lababes also the rabbim would dance in the middle by the first and seventh hakafa. the middle hak office everybody danced in a circle like regular hakafus but by the rebba I guess I guess it just the space didn't no longer allowed it that's pro I don't I don't know if that's why it stopped by everyone just stood in the place and danced facing the but there was hakafus and then there was a all night thean ended on night at 7 a.m. and everybody was saying that America never has never ever seen such a thing it's unheard of that there was and there was and there was and there was and it's really it's it's really very an amazing description to see how people are coming to see a snapshot of but it's like the on but totally not in his element. There's only a few normal there and yet the whole it's it's the with the whole with the whole hispash of this is how theb does things and this is how it's going to be and and the is just the hispilus is is unbelievable. I don't I I I was wondering to I was wondering if there is any other visit to America that has that has anything d to that I don't in just the sheer numbers of people that came out to see the vidaba and the impact and like I I I've read a little bit about Jewish American history and I I haven't seen anything that that even comes close not before not after >> and you see um and you see when the fi came to America the second time you see the the the crowd that's that's there to greet is also immense. >> Yeah. >> Tremendous tremendous crowd. >> It's actually much bigger than the first time because the first time the they put the fre on a tugboat that came to a regular pier. It wasn't the official place where they really where they received get where they received chips. So it was like a it was just like any pier if you go walk on a boardwalk in in Brooklyn or anywhere and there's just a sidewalk along along the along the water. That's what there was. There was nowhere to stay. There was nowhere to go inside and it was raining and and the people came early in the morning and the field showed the the tuk boat came by midday afternoon. So after six seven hours of rain a lot of people had fallen away and so you see the crowd is actually not as big as it as it had been earlier but by but the second time you see the the the crowds are immense and uh and it's it's it's a very very interesting story and it's also interesting to because you read all you read these stories and was like the bash used to travel around everywhere and the mag was the mag stayed in one place and and people came to the mag and you see the same thing by the was traveling to all these places. the reba is is uh is is stays in 770 and that's it. And it's a very interesting contrast although there is a letter where the where it seems that the rebar inv but that never happened in the end. >> Okay. So um and then the so when did the leave the end was invact date um of the visit came to an end there was a big that hundreds and hundreds of people came it was like the the forb and then there was another there was A there's a video of the Malav Mal and the Kramer home that's also at the end right before the Fed leaves and then there was a small fab Jacobson writes he doesn't write exactly what happened this is an interesting story where he says that all the Tim came for the last shabas I think it was one of the Shabbas and they stayed in the same hotel that the fit was staying in and they assume that after dvening after shas in the morning they'll get invited in for and he says the ke which would sometimes d very long on shabas Sometimes if you wanted he would d short. So but he says very long and time they and then they were called in for and it was only the people that were really close. These are the that were inab for many years and the could could speak openly to them was not on show and and he says that the spoke to them for an hour and a half. He spoke a very very sharp. And he doesn't say what and he says he says the and he writes that that it was very very difficult. He says like we we wanted this the floor to swallow us. That's what he writes. And it it seems like it sounds like like Bisv or something like that. There were there were moments throughout the the visit of the where the is seeing the in America in America. They're you know to some extent they're Americanizing. There was one time where told that he can't he doesn't know how to talk to the American because they all wear shirts and ties because in in Russia the invention of shirts didn't exist. They were like undershirts. I don't think they were full undershirts but they didn't wear top shirts like we wear today and especially not ties. So said I don't know how to talk to these the American they all wear shirts and ties and and said it's not the ties are not perfectly in place like it's okay. So but there were all there were indications I mean that the the state of the Even held wanted to hold to a higher standard. Maybe that's what the was about. I'm not entirely sure. Or another theory I had was that it was about the was pushing the entire time that the in America needed to do by pay wants in every state. Something that didn't it took 90 years for that to happen. But that is talking in in in in terms in very very broad terms. And you know you can imagine aid that kind came from Russia. He barely speaks English. He doesn't know the language. it obviously wasn't it wasn't matching up and that you see clearly in the letters but anyways I don't know what the spoke about but there was a very sharp to the only to the very very close right as they were leaving and but then and then wrote very very warm letters and very beautiful letters about about about continuing to and to raise in America and that in the future he'll taka come back to live there that's it's not it's almost directly said it's very very implied and and uh and then then the fir left it It was ins one of the integral components of being a he wanted to keep these days give us an opportunity to connect with not as famous he also came and then came closer to the war and he got stuck here and that's how he ended up in >> how did the rabbit commemorate celebrate these days it's really it's really a beautiful beautiful story >> most importantly what are the lessons I wrote I wrote the article and one of the editors already messaged me how how touched I was told he was really going to cry. I don't know if everyone will cry. >> All of this and much much more are it's really it's really an amazing >> recently published by their head. What happened when the kebab became >> our days is a journey through the calendar. >> From there the kebab went back to then little over 700 in Poland. Yeah. I think three years later beautiful beautiful >> there was for two years the traveled a lot in Europe also there's a there's a mish and there's there's a whole many many trips >> for every right right for every school it is a perfect gift item this will not collect dust that's a whole another story >> day after day >> that's a story in itself I guess we'll have to do a whole a whole another article for that the whole empire and go to.org/ or it's really every every five years of the future or another because in Russia in Poland it was about in America it was about teaching all the basically reinvented himself >> also a future article >> it was like the whole was entirely different every time he moved to a different place and he was moving moving places the entire time that was constant that the Reba advocated for this it says ini that the is diagonal not like is in the in the arch of Titus etc etc etc people you know there's a lot said about it recently it has been highlighted this tishabove the hame people know about it we could talk about it maybe if you But anyways, but uh I'm sure Okay, so let's dive right into it and I guess I'll ask questions if I have them. No, it that video was part of a few people reached out and said we have to make an article on the mana because based on whatever they were watching on Tishbuff on the yellow gold movie and where he has some some people some or at least the claim is on the video that this is an adas of people that went down and saw the man in the Vatican and one of them says that he saw it he says he doesn't say it clearly but he basically says that he saw the man's balin and that is in contrast in the video in the entire video and anywhere else in archaeology that that there's much more archaeology um with a with a round mana. That was the symbol that you you did. It's in Rome like that and all over Rome and and a lot of the archaeology in Israel is around. >> So you're saying you're saying the elephant in the room so to speak is that besides besides the the the arch of Titus that has around >> all over the world in Rome and in archaeological that have been found some are diagonal. >> Yes. But I would say the majority the majority are around. >> Majority are around. Okay. So >> majority are around. >> I think I think you have to go >> I don't know talk. >> It's a very interesting thing because the the whole conversation about is really it's it's it's a it's two different conversations happening at the same time. s like labavators are talking in one direction and other people are talking in the other direction and it's not a real conversation because where do you the the real question is what's your point of entry do we take things from tyra or do we take things from other places what's true is the historian are the historians true are the is archaeology true or is true and everything else has to match up so when the talks about >> you're saying ala >> ala for many years people said that archaeologically there's no proof of the Jews in Egypt until one Hey, >> recently. Oh, by the way, we we did find proof. Yeah. Like, okay. >> The whole story the whole story of biblical the whole story of biblical archaeology is is that is the start off with saying none of it is true and then I'll slowly have to back off cuz slowly find one thing then you find another thing then you find another thing. It's not a good place to be. >> As opposed to saying everything is true and then let's uh you know we'll time will tell or when or if we'll find archaeological proof as well. >> Exactly. So, so for a regular person and it's it's totally it's totally fandic that a guy um you know he sees the arch of titus and it's round and then you see archaeology it's round. So what was the mana pashras? It was around the Reb didn't talk much about it didn't talk about archaeology at all. I don't think >> about exactly in other words it was it start the whole thing started it was like it was a very short piece of was talking about the and the are supposed to be straight and that's clear in the gum >> and said by the way >> square not straight square >> square right the tops top is straight the and says by the way the same is true about and says that put out the picture of the kavad of the raam rabbi kapak had published that he had and he included the picture of the kaviad of the raam I I think he was the first person to put it out with of the picture and says that you see the are straight and in the indications in are that it's straight and yet what are all the everywhere they're they're round and where what's the most prominent one the the says it looks like we're all copying the shittas and vast it's it's a mashia also vast that we are we are all copying the that expresses the the the worst part of our go the destruction of the basto instead of doing the md the way the says which is that which is the that's going to be by with the so to use the is is is a contradiction and that it was a very short thing >> aren't there some early sources in that say that they're round also >> no no there not not direct not clearly like that so what there is so then there were minus on the on the and then a week later the spoke about it again and spoke about more on the aspect So you have is where in ty do you see it's round? There's nowhere in ta that says clearly in round the actually if you the only I mean from what I was reading on the topic the only you're able to make in the >> there's a yeah so there's the says the cphree says the one of I think it's the he says that the that the all the branches of the were surrounding the central one. It's not clear if that means in a round. It was like a candalabra or was it a half circle? And the that Izzra says that it was that it was round. He seems to be saying that it was in a half circle that they came up in like a like a twirling way to be in in like a like a like a like a round circle but from the top. It's not so clear. There are some people in the speaks about both options that that either either he was saying there was a round the way we talk about around or that the top was round. That's the the thera and that seems to be based on it might be based on the medish the description of the medish but in as far as in other words as far as is concerned you have you have the and then there's there's the description in in how the how the is supposed to look and then there's who takes from there and writes it so spoke of this even more about when it was about the tits that we look for what does the ta say and as far as the ta says of the mikdash Especially when it's you have to look at the is basically the oran. So the says that the makes no indication that they're round and the word means read means pipe. A is a straight thing. The t uses the word ka many many times and there's never any indication that it will be round. And in the one interesting that I saw someone write that he says this is this is a that's you know but it's the says that the the bulb at the center of the pipes that come out of the is if the b if the if they go up you can say it's but if you say that the is round that means they're coming out di um sideways so it's not the ca there's not. So the word inra seems to imply also that it's coming from the top. But that's that that never said that the just says that makes a picture that it's straight and son is clearly and he says that meant to make it straight not round. Some people want to say himself himself says he's not being so that means that wasn't the says no he wasn't being mad in the in the cup >> in this specific Yeah. Yeah. says >> but son writes that that note my father met that it's that's that's straight >> 100% writes that he writes that this is the general image and he says he's not going to be madak and certain things because >> I am still upset I'm still upset at myself that when it was on display in Manhattan for a few months and I planned on going to visit it tomorrow and the next day and the next day >> I didn't do it so I have to wait I get to Oxford right I have to wait to my to my trip to Oxford >> okay go ahead >> yeah it's very so so they're the writes that he this is to and then he writes he's not being mid and it basically if and the benam is mid out of that picture many things that theam doesn't identify specifically in other words the identifies that the main purpose of the of the picture is to show you where all the stuff go where the cups go where the go because that's a very complicated thing to describe in text he's going to make a picture but he still says like this is the general this is how it looks and He's not only he doesn't only say that it's straight. He says he also is madak in another place in his pur that the bottom of the base is round and there's no mocker in anywhere that the the base being round besides for the raam himself that that picture the doesn't even write it in it's just rounded there and writes that writes in his that the base was round. So, and and by the way, the same thing that that the idea that the Rambam had a difficulty making round round branches is is to some extent disqualified by the fact the ba the base is round. It's a beautiful round base that the Rama wrote. He clearly had the kin that you need to make to draw a nice circle and a nice a nice straight line and he did both. So he could have made he could have made around the essentially the idea that is not being madic would mean to say like this that we're supposed to imagine that the Rambam in his says the word kim which means straight he draws a picture with a kim are straight and yet in his mind the entire time he was imagining around the it's a very very bizarre ta to make >> and it's also it's this is I mean Rashi writes also clearly that that it's that it's also in regarding the other mikes the based mainly on the Rambam but Rashi says the word alen and the common understanding of the word alen is that it's straight diagonal >> yeah but I saw someone trying to challenge that that doesn't doesn't mean diagonal did you see this >> so yeah I did see that and so like like I said the conversation goes in two different directions because the sh is where you coming from is the tyra true and everything else has to match or is archaeology true and the tra has to match so there's an article that goes through all the traess that the Reba makes and tries to twist them to fit the archaeology. So for example, this fellow says book called so he says that why is the using the word k if k means straight. He says kana is not about straight. K is about being hollow. It's about being hollow. It's a hollow read. Um the only problem is the is the is not hollow. It's a bit of a problem that that you can't you can't say that the word of the k is all about being hollow when the when the man is not hollow. And he makes the same thing about aloxx. He says alaken is not straight. It's it's a it's any any line that's not straight. So he says the maker that I saw so far are the rashis in the description of the where the rashi explains how you draw the line of around the different places and he says that if you look there it's not it's not but if you open up any map of any with a map I open up it is diagonal it's pretty much a straight diagonal there's one description of the yard going moving diagonally into the kerat um on top of the caner the yard continues and it moves in a in a in a right to right side and that's there's no implication in rashi that that it doesn't mean diagonal you could easily say it's diagonal if you want to say that it's not you can make that argument but there's no indication in the text it could be this other mus for this I don't know but argument wasn't a good one and the and the econom argument wasn't a good one and it came down to the point where he says that the raam was a rationalist the raam spoke about the fact that the terra has to make sense in the in in in gashmas so he says had the raam seen our archaeology he would have for sure said that the mana was That was the basic mascan of the article and that like it it doesn't whatever obviously coming from the perspective that's that's not that's not even worthy of a conversation. So the so in title the mccaris are all straight. So there's the thera says that it's round. It's not even clear what round means there. There's another one that has a whole deal to say that that when he says it's straight he's not talking about the econom. talking about the top but again but that's also but but is madic so much in the in the in the in the picture that that it's it's it's really impossible to say that that it's not muy there it's crazy to say that it's not mic it's just a question of what are you comfortable with if the archaeology seems to say everywhere that it's round and there's only a mute that say that it's straight up so that you know from from you know if we're writing an article on on the mana so that whole question is really irrelevant if we're going with Tyra the Tyra says that it's straight so it's straight Now you want to have cement for entertainment purposes only. You want to have a discussion about the about the archaeology fine then you can make that you can make arguments. >> So entertain me. I don't know I don't know if it qualifies as good entertainment but the but the there's many there's many many minitas first of all that are straight and the there's b the the the simple thing that you see when you go from mana to mana is that all the descriptions of the round menas the tetas mana is hard to to is is not so credible because the base of it is clearly not the tra's base and it has a des 13 years after the march anyway so it's hard so by what by what indication you're going to say that it was true. There's one theory that the base of the mana got broken on in transit and they made a new base and that's why it has a desine but even the branches and this is a problem that goes through every man that I've seen. There's I don't haven't seen yet at least around that has the duke of the on it. In other words, there's a there's a of the miner that was found in a home of Kahanim not far away from the base of Mikdash and it's a beautiful round mana but there's bulbs on the entire thing from top to bottom. That's clearly not what the TA says. So you right away you're always stuck asking these miners that everyone's depicting, you know, to to what extent is that the mikdash? It does. It never really looks like the mikash. And it it this guy that wrote that made the mana look like bulbs in the it looks actually very similar to the titana which has a lot of b which also seems to have a lot of bulbs or a lot of indentations along the entire along the entire bar. So the question basically it comes down to is there in the basa mikdash we know for sure that there was other minitas in the basa mikdash for lighting. So are they depicting those minoritas that were in the basa mikdash and the Roman architecture the Roman style would be to make around men that would be the fancier Roman way to do it. >> Where were the where were the other miners in the basikdash >> everywhere if they lit up at night then they needed they needed miners they needed a candle to hold the fires. Who even saw 10? >> Who even saw the the mikt in the kesh? No one went into the >> That's that's that's a very good question. So in this article he says that everyone knew what the looked like. So if you're finding it must be that it must be it must be based on the B and he writes a few that everyone saw. What's the mocker? It says they used to bring out the of the mikt to see for people to see during the but if you open the what it actually says is that they used to bring out the so that everyone would see the nest that the that the kalas were still warm doesn't say that about the there is one place in the shi where they say that they took the to be so there were people who saw the man saw the man and you can't say that nobody saw the man and that the taser is is is unreliable because of that because for the simple simple reason that there's a one of the coins that has one of the modern day uh I think Tanagarot or something is there's a Ram there that's a that's a mockup that's a copy of the coin that was made by one of the kings matign he coined that that coin and it has a ramen on it and he was a cayen the whole base was this mdish half of the kings were the khan themselves I don't remember if he was the kayang but you can't say that he didn't know what the looked like or that he wouldn't know or people wouldn't tell That's I I think that's not a fair argument. So he So there's a there's a cen probably not a but he's a cayenne and he's making a coin that has a round. So you're left with two options either because for aesthetic purposes they liked depicting depicting round because it's nicer because that was the Roman style which would make sense because these theashim weren't exactly by that time they weren't exactly holy Jews. They were all stoim. So the fact that they weren't concerned with what the says about is it totally makes sense. So either they're depicting what's not the real or they fashioned the which means that the the in the B mikdash itself the B mikdash was controlled by stokim for many many years there were the the there was all sorts of problems and fights and stoken were a big force the controlling the government >> you're saying you're saying it's possible that in the times of the second mikdash they probably didn't have the real man >> yeah yeah I mean the didn't make this argument just to be clear I I'm just saying if we're looking for explanations to say why the is around maybe the second mikdash at least after the after because after there was no so they first made it with and that was uh that was straight that's clearly straight that means straight then they when they when they got rich the says they made it out of gold okay who made that gold one and who designed it could be they made it round and especially that the never argues that a round man is possible the there's no nowhere in that would indicate that around is no good so it could be that They made a minra that was shalo that was that was that was not you know h mitzvah let's say so >> so what happened what happened to the in the first place in mikdash >> it was probably taken to it was probably taken to uh to into captivity the the like like one day and gimmar says even the was taken to to b so could be the was taken to bal too I I would imagine they took it and finished so the men and the second ba mikdash it's not even the second base of mikdash it's the kashm it's this it's the it's the post Kashmino, post Kaneka when they were rich enough and when they were rich enough it's very likely that they were already big big time sten there. So the idea that that's a basis to say what a is is is just very weak and and to take it even further. So there are some arguments if you just read online that that it's very difficult to make a mana stand if it's pure gold in a in a in a diagonal mana and that it's just much easier if it's round. Now I don't understand the the argument but I'm obviously way out of my depth when it comes to those things but there are arguments uh to the opposite. There are people who say that's not true. But there is also the medish. This is just very interesting that the medish says that was until the not only showed him made it for him. There's other things that was the what's this? What's that? But the made the so if you want I can I can just argue to you now that the a straight man is taken succeed in making a straight man. But what's the min of what does want a straight man and but in the in the in the movie of of of y gold and the tish of video they have they have a guy there that claims that he saw he saw the and that's the from the second mikdash and he says he saw go go go >> he doesn't say he doesn't say clearly but that's his implication >> he indicates his implication is very very clear it's upon him that that he's talking about having a straight but but I I mean until video evidence comes out you can never know if if it's how true how true that that adus is. So yeah, >> another thing from that uh from that tishabove um I saw that was a little compelling to me archaeologically is that he he has like I don't know what it's called like a mural or something there some archaeological artifact from from then that basically on the same artifact they have two minis on the same one. >> Yeah. one and one is straight >> one is round and one is one is straight. That's that goes with the whole theory that maybe maybe there's multiple menas but like why would you make on one thing two manas two different shapes one round and one and to be clear from the archeological evidence that we're finding I just saw recently one was found there are archaeological it's true the majority are around but there are straight mineras archaeologically found as well so there are both >> yeah yeah there's definitely both in on the ty side there's one interesting aspect that they that a lot of makers say that the miner is connected the shem and the and the galgal and that raises the question why is it the galum the seven lamps are connected they have the exact shinness I don't have in front of me but uh but does that mean that it's round some people argue if if it's the gagalum galum around what does that mean it probably means that the kim around but that's that's that's been debated also in these articles that go back and forth and it's a big lavka the shami has one interesting thing where they say that the the pushim were being m in a mikvah and the stokim said look at the pushim They're they're being ty gal sheish that's what they call the mana gal sheish the goggle of the of the sun so it's a very interesting lash but all of those mikas don't even say that the kum around they say that the nus are around it seems much more that the nas themselves the top of the were round and I don't even know to what extent a person in those days imagined galgalum to be round I mean they're standing on earth and they see up and it goes it goes from one side to another I don't know if round is really the right description there so that's another interesting thing but in the archaeology there is it is very interesting that there are a miote that have straight and that raises the question why would someone why why would they make the difference there so but but as far but but the but the point is still that the Titus says that it's straight so it's straight and and uh what will come out and it'll probably come out you know there's a story where I think 11 says that the would always say that the in the library has instead of saying in benching it says the overdusha the over the overflowing or whatever the right word would be and baran saw at some point he got his hands on the on the sidd for the first time probably after when the two libraries the library and the library were combined so he he looks in the in the sedar and he sees it says so he wrote to the he says something's wrong here that he he always heard that it says and and it says and the reb didn't argue with him just said that that we always heard from the that it says hagdusha and that's it. So he went back and he opened the scar again and then he discovered that there's two benchings in every s because there's a benching and then benching and benching says didn't even argue with him over is the fic right was it true was it a mistake was he remembering wrong said now go now go figure it out yourself and he went and figured it out and he figured it out and he discovered that it was true so when it when it comes to the question >> which is generally the rabb's approach you know the science Yeah. >> Questions is against the apologetic style >> of of trying to take, you know, take and make it fit with science. Reb's attitude is always no is true. >> Science we'll figure out later. We'll deal we'll deal with it. But that, you know, that's that that's that's a second agenda, >> right? It's true about everything in terra. So everything has to now find a way to match up with that. If the rashi said that I nearly boss so if you would ask me what is it why is this rashi not matchik I'll say whatever rashi was being from his usual style and he decided to tell us a little bit now it's not but by the it's if rashi says it's only and you have to twist your brain until you're going to figure out how it makes sense and if the says it's everything in the has to has to mean that it has to mean we once had an article of all the stories in that the rebbble learned out of if you would ask me why is there a story I would be very easy. It would be very easy to say or like at the end of the where the Rambam kind of goes goes a little more spiritual and says that or the the spirituality I call it the Fabian Fabian. >> Exactly. Someone once printed a whole book of that because you know to learn the whole is boring but you're going to have so one of the they once put out just all the the ends because that's very interesting. So but like why why does that have to mean but that each one of those is a clear. So the same thing is the same thing is here the ministrate that what now you effects are my conscious archaeology whatever one day we'll figure it out or we won't figure it out and that and that's totally fine we're not really concerned. So that's the that's the going cav of the of the article. >> The article didn't happen yet, but that's that that's that those are my thoughts right now unless somebody will listen to the podcast and come with good arguments to either way to explain it to a good point to add to add here. But that's broadly speaking the the that's broadly speaking the picture. So yeah. >> Um and by the way when it comes to the other conversation with the lus this whole there's no shakarity about it. Meaning as far as as far as I know when it comes to the the there might be even different opinions in in itself when it comes to the I mean it's a it's clear I mean it's it's black and white that that that square right there's no there's no um >> there was once there was once an attempt I think in there was once an idea to mint a special coin in honor of Kaneka or to give a guilt from the rabbi there there was some story about making a special coin or a special stamp or maybe this is two stories that I'm mixing but they wrote to the about it and the wrote that if there's any possibility that they're going to make that are not that are round then you should absolutely not do it. There's nothing there's no there's no uh no no coming to terms with that. If it's the minra, you should push for a straight man. But you but around minra is okay because there were days in terra that do talk about around and it seems like there was talking about which which according to one version of the understanding it is talking about around or the I'm not really sure but doesn't say which day but he says you don't have to action on a if it's not if it's not possible but but the there's nothing to talk about the is it's it's clear there's nothing else to talk about. Yeah. And the only reason why they're around is from I don't know Christian artists or something >> publishers I believe it was publishers that it was the people who published books would make would make a would make it and they were copying an arch someone that depicted the the the uh the round so that it's totally from there's no there's no mak like that the man I mean yeden drew the man in in round very very commonly the benam when he writes about the Rambam's his father's He says it's straight not in round like others have depicted and it's a big question of what others mean because is he talking about because in those in that case if he's talking about he has lashes that speak very highly about the he doesn't call him zulas that's it's a language that that he doesn't that it's it's he might not have used on or is he talking about just regular rank and file people that just make artists and and talk about round but there's no question that y'an have been making around and there were daily who had around and they didn't make any like so it was very it was well established in Jewish tradition that people had around even if it's not or based on what the says so the says they're not to auction on it at least um in in it's not it's not it's not to force other people to obviously when makes him it's going to be straight in in in the itself in the original said and then he continued on and in that just says his his his spyus like his his it is uh how strange it is that we that everyone does around the when the big round is the and that's and but in the when it came out later so says clearly in that in that it's it's that everyone should have only say like that it's it's that it's a very straight thing the interesting thing is that which is just recently I mean In 770 in the first theb says that that the is that the in70 is is is not mentions that in the first what do you think happened in 770 from there to kanaka nothing the was the same by the time when kanaka started they put up the same there were a few bah in 770 I think one was name was he lives in the there was a few bak 770 that were thinking about it and after tish they were already having meetings what are we going to do about about the madra and finally they came to hersel par the the he and he was the one who fashioned it and made the gold mira and nagal from karnites paid for it but that all happened very late there was no one like there wasn't no no no powers that be no musc nobody was thinking about what's the going to look like they came to him like five days before kaneka and he worked on it for 10 days or 11 days and by the sixth night of kaneka the they put up the newra and they came in for mka and they The entire min was turning around and looking at it, looking up and down and looking at every single piece of it the entire time. The didn't say anything right then, but they looked and looked and looked like usually just ded straight and didn't look at anything. But this kept on turning around and looking through to see to see the the num >> the seven is the right measurements. >> I mean, it's eight, which means it's not it's not exactly put, but I think I think it's it's it's pretty straight. I think the cups go into each other and it's a that's questionable if that's what the meant if if >> No, I mean I mean the height >> I'm not I'm not sure. I never measured it but it's something very similar. It can't be too different. It looks it was the it was the height of a person and the B was the height of a person and there's a says that you didn't even need the steps to light it. The steps are in for itself why they had steps for the kangle to go up. So that's the general image of the of the mana that we have. >> Oh so the man 770 I don't think was namish round. It was like a those square menus. >> It was square. Yeah. Yeah. and it went out to the sideways. But the point of not being was there and that's what spoke about. >> What about the that are like you know they go like this and then they go straight. >> We're going to have to make a what type of are you allowed to have exactly straight this way or straight that way. In a lot of the arguments are a lot of the archaeology is stones and the stones there are more stones that seem to have straight manas but that's like that again it's not such not such a good argument because the stone is harder to carve. You can just say it's easier to carve straight there. But there's plenty of of als that are not stone too. But uh but yeah, it's a it's a good question on what exactly. >> We'll make measurements in the measure this way. No, but they never said it's that the is that the the is is the worst worst of it was made there to be and it was made to remember the the thing of and mentions there that whenever they wanted to be mashed in Rome they would bring them to the that was the source of the hashb to say look uh you know we won and the Jew and and Judea capta like they had on coins that was that was the source as as migu it's it's obvious that the round man has no place and and uh and a straight man is the way to go. >> Okay. So we should be to the >> main this year before my article comes out. Um, okay. Looking forward to both articles and and we should do this again on a different topic. >> Thank you for having me. Nobody will read the magazine if we say all the secrets on the on the podcast >> or maybe we're wetting their appetite. So, it's a good strategy, >> right? >> Okay. >> Put up a link to subscribe. >> Yeah. >> The head.org magazine.