They Know Exactly What They're Doing

Something you said is interesting in that I think it captures most of the sort of like call it call it the James Lindsay wing in us, right? That seems to be where the the fundamental tension is. >> Yeah. >> Fair? >> Yes. >> Um So the way I look at it and maybe this is sort of the Yoram and I Yoram and I's thesis. I think we both share it and I think it's kind of core to NatCon, right? And it's in the name nationalist. We are nationalists. Um and we think I I'd say I think that the critics of the Ameri the sort of there there is a maybe not a hypocrisy but a double standard for Israel if it if you say on the one hand Israel gets, you know, is very good and virtuous for having all these very this very strong nationhood. >> Mhm. >> Right? This this deeply uh you know, a people, a land >> Mhm. >> etc. And then if if in the same breath you say that and then you also say actually America America shouldn't do that. America is creedal. This is not fitting in America at all. We shouldn't do this. I think [snorts] a right-winger would look at you and like the right wing cuz somebody like William Wolfe will look at you and be like, but why don't we? In fact, I know William Wolfe would say that because I actually went on him with him on one of these study group trips. >> Yeah. >> Uh maybe he'll hate me for saying this, but I went with him. Uh we went to a Yeshiva in the West Bank where we saw a military-aimed Yeshiva and saw, you know, they they were studying Talmud for a year before they went to the IDF. >> Yeah. >> And I remember William get we got out of there and you know the meme where he's like, God, I see what you've done with these people and I want that for me. That's what William said after going to the Yeshiva. Like, I want this for myself. >> Right. >> And I think there's so we so knowing that I think from Yoram and I's perspective we think that that is a very that sort of tension that what I would call what I would Lindsayism if you will where it's like nationalism acceptable in Israel, not so great in America. We would say that's a very fragile foundation on which to build American-Israeli relations. We should say nationalism for everybody. We get nationalism, too. Americans get nationalism, too. And so that then that frames how we think about these conferences, where the line is set. Whereas Lindsay might say these crazy Christian nationalists are fascists and whatever we would say no like we we we are more uh we try to be more discerning in our view like we still we agree with you that there are some people who are obviously off limits and crazy and well beyond the pale Tucker Candace at all but there's there's a group of people that you are in our view slandering and being unfair to that have good points and are reasonable and they they don't feel the way about Israel that like maybe the Zionists I mean not Zionists I think that's wrong word to use there but maybe maybe sort of pro-Israel forces would like them to but they're they are well within reason and well within the the bounds of acceptable discourse on the right and moreover that they are not they are perfectly reasonable allies for both for pro-Israel forces because they don't they don't think of Israel as a hostile force they just >> And they fall it seems like they loosely fall into a category of admiration whether that means support of every single action or even like you know every strategic partnership or allyship admiration goes a long way from you know mitigating hatred or animosity if you admire something it's pretty kind of hard to tolerate people like you know casting it aspersions and painting a society in this way that certainly the far left is done and some on the what do you call it you know America first right have done which is just false >> Right. >> and then you know I get that whole thing of you know no fair they get to have a sort of nationalistic pride why can't we in America maintain the same thing but I guess some of that is also because of the nature of the countries is so different the scale the degree the multi-ethnic makeup of the United States made up of so many different people that whole melting pot that I know that you know you wrong has spoken about a little bit the failures of some of some of that American experiment but it's kind of hard you know I guess it's a matter of degree right like a family is kind of one thing and has a singular identity extended to a community that has a singular identity and a shared sort of whether it's faith culture religion those kind of things as it gets more and more dispersed and bigger and larger geographically and in terms of population to try to impose that at the government level. I I I guess this does point to the sort of real philosophical and academic discussions about nationalism and national conservatism versus uh you know, classical liberalism liberalism if you will. >> Yes. >> can see why the that it's not so and I think the prescription from like a Jeremy Boring would be like do what Israel's doing and just at the more localized governmental level at the more communal level cuz it starts with families and uh values and culture and it extends from there and the founders of America were smart to realize that you know, in this case, you know, it might not be as applicable and that that could sound like a double standard but sometimes it's just a matter of what's practical, you know, given the >> I I agree with that and I I I I like Jeremy. I thought he gave a good speech and I think that that's like, you know, Jeremy came, right? He's and we he gave that speech and we knew that we give that speech and we think that that's that is the core of like our own internal like what is what does American nationalism look like and it obviously because of our own traditions, it's going to be distinct from anywhere else and it's going to be, you know, we're conserving the product of the American Revolution and revolutions are, you know, not necessarily the most right-wing reactionary thing, obviously. Um but I think that's that's the debate and and I guess here is one problem I really have with the way that Lindsey and his and his cronies are kind of focusing on this where is they're taking they're using the sort of anti-Semitism argument as like a wedge to try and win the internal debate like about what how American politics should work. Do you Do you see what I'm saying where it's like you're trying to make you're you're you're leveling this criticism being like, "Oh my god, these people, they're just crazy like they let these anti-Semites speak. Like you should have nothing to do with them. They're beyond the pale." And then but I think that it's like the it's an overreaction and to me it's like the overreaction is because they are so invested in winning this internal debate in on the American right that they're like using this as a a to do that. Does that make sense? >> Um well, you're saying that his just so I understand it the concern for anti-Semitism is letting him not see uh you know, the value or the at least the effort with well-intentioned people who aren't part of that or is it >> Not quite. It's not that it's that he's he's leveling the accusation somewhat frivolously >> Sure, but but aren't people aren't people who that he's like really opposed to also just constantly using anti-Semitism as the actual wedge to divide MAGA or the right? >> Right. No, but this is actually the key point. This is so remember you know, I haven't had a chance to discuss this, right? Lindsey came up with the idea of the woke right, you know? And you know, so I remember you know, we had this discussion a long time ago and this was a fight you can go back three or four years where I was having these arguments with Lindsey on X. And part of what we objected pretty strenuously to this notion of a woke right because we knew exactly what he was doing where he was doing a thing that the left used to try and do with us before which is you want to lump us in with anti-Semites so that you can discredit our ideas about nationalism. Right? And I I I've I've heard that one before personally. I know it very well and it it it it is we had that game played against us before NatCon did, right? And we were that's one of the reasons we we were probably more aggressive about policing the tent maybe a little too overly aggressive in my view in order to avoid this problem because at that time the alt-right was so ascendant. Um but basically like Lindsey came up with the the woke right idea and so he took what what Tucker and Candace and uh you name it and then he also included like and then if you're also at all concerned with you know, sort of national identity in the way that the NatCons are you're also part of the woke right with Tucker and Candace. So it ended up being a rhetorical tool to try and lump everybody together and it's like we we see what you're do I don't know. I saw what he was doing it he you know, whatever he managed to get like that that coinage be very very influential, but you know, in my view you know, Yoram actually had a very good point about that, which was like the Trump coalition includes the nationalists. Right? It doesn't include actually doesn't include Tucker and Candace anymore, obviously. They hate Trump, but the Tucker coalition includes the nationalist. And when you sort of use woke to label the completely beyond the pale people with the people on the right of your tent, right? You're you're just you're what you're doing is actually extraordinarily damaging. >> [music] [music]