America's Most Controversial Spy Finally Tells All / Jonathan Pollard

So I I said to to Hashem I said to God that look just like Araino when he negotiated for the uh survival of Sodom and Gomorrah. I said, um, look, if I stop doing these 10 bad things, and I thought about it and I said, eight [laughter] and [snorts] six. And then I settled on five and God agreed five. And I start doing these five good things. Save me. And that was it. >> None of your business, Oshi. None of your [music] business, Michael. It's the None of Your Business podcast hosted by Michael Anoshi. >> Welcome back everybody to the None of Your Business Podcast. I'm your host, Michael Greenfield, and joined with me today is a special co-host, >> Mr. David Began. It is so nice of you to be here. >> It's amazing to be here. >> You fill the seat a lot better than Ushi, by the way. Only because we're in Israel. Only because we're in Israel. I'm saying, you know, when it comes to being here, like >> I am so happy to be here. This is something we've been looking forward to doing this for a long time. This is great. >> Absolutely. And we have such an amazing guest today and I want to get right into it. Uh but before I do, I just want to thank all our subscribers, all our comments, all our feedback, negative or positive. You know, we love it. We like to hear what you have to say and today we like to hear what this man has to say. Jonathan Pard is here with us and uh what a moment for us to be shared. Welcome to the program. >> Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. Really, it's uh it's just like I'm I have goosebumps. You just sitting here with you and feeling that uh you know, just years ago on our fridge growing up in Brooklyn, New York was free Jonathan all over our refrigerator. I mean, there was you know, pictures of us as children. >> Well, trust me, you did more for me than the government of Israel did. So, I I appreciate it very much. Thank you. >> Wow. Wow. you know, uh, something I've learned about you over the past, uh, you know, 20 minutes of talking to you offline and when I met with you, uh, is the fact that you're so transparent in everything that you say. I feel like you you don't hold back any punches and it's just a great feeling to talk to someone like that and how did you get to that point? uh cander uh is very good both for the listener and for the speaker because you get to emit you get to truth and this is something uh that we lack in this country right now. Uh you can't believe anything the army says you can't believe anything the government says. Uh you can believe everything your wife says. Um >> you can or you or you must. >> You absolutely no you can. Okay? because if it gets to the point where you must, then you should look for somebody else. [laughter] They're too they're too big and strong. Um, no, it's just uh the reason October 7th happened was because of government lying and military lying. You can say it's a misconceptia that happened but uh there were two misconcepts on October 7th. One was of course the one we know that the army and government made a horrible mistake um to which they have not been held accountable and the people of this country made had a misconceptia in believing them and one can be forgiven the other one is treason. So, as far as I'm concerned, I tell people, um, you may not like what I say. You may not agree with it, but you should know that I'm telling you the truth as I see it. I've been I was lied to for 35 years. I know what it's like um to be on the receiving end of that and I will never inflict that on anybody else. >> Wow. You know, I I have to tell you that uh the concept of transparency and being honest is something that I uh live by. And uh David here knows me for a while and he can attest to that. And it's just the feeling of freedom in of itself. Just being able to speak the truth. >> Correct. >> Never have to watch about what you're saying and who you're saying it to. And that's what I'm learning from you and that's why I'm so excited here. Before we start, um Dave, why don't you tell us and the listeners a little bit about who you are, you know, because being as a co-host, uh just give us a, you know, a quick rundown. I I >> should I tell them the most the most important thing about who I am? >> Please. >> Michael and I, we are um Makatonum as they say. My son Ley is married to uh Michael's son Aviva. >> Michael's daughter. >> Michael's daughter of Let's do that again. [laughter] >> Michael and I >> That's okay. In Tel Aviv, by the way, that would not have been a mistake. Michael and I are That means that we are we're in-laws with each other because my son Ley is is married to Michael's daughter, Aviva. And um we are very happy about that cuz Aviva is my favorite vegan. Did I just say that online? >> It's out there. It's in public. We don't edit this thing by the way. Just warning both of you. We don't edit this podcast. >> We've been here for four years. We came from Chicago four years ago. We moved here. We made Aliyah. And since then, um I've been doing a number of things. I've been a tour guide and I'm also a podcaster. We have a podcast called Israel Take Three. We've been exploring different topics related to the war, related to hostages, related to all different topics since October 7th, and now we're moving on to other topics. Um, that's what I've been doing, podcasting. I'm a journalist by trade, also a rabbi, and trying to combine those pieces together in a sort of educational package. People are trying to understand Israel and understand how to navigate the landscape and make sense of this really crazy nuanced world called Israel. Um, not that I understand it, but to the best of my ability, I help people to understand that through the journalism and the podcasting. >> I have to say the first time I met you and Jonathan, it's a great story. You'll appreciate this. Um, is uh we really felt Israel as a whole when we made a for >> we lifted our glass. We were in our apartment in Jerusalem >> and we lifted our glasses to make a my daughter, his son, him, his wife, me, my wife, we all raise our glass and we make a the official. >> As we're raising our glass, his son gets a telephone call. >> Army and he realizes that it's somebody he has to pick up and he goes, "Guys, before we clink, let let me just pick up this. I'm so sorry." >> He picks up the phone call. >> Talk about chills. I have the chills now when you're telling this story. and he got the call that his immediate commander was just killed >> and he was the one to get the phone call because that was just the protocol of how they did it after next of kin >> the way he transformed from getting emotional and just living in that moment of my my world is colliding and everything is just falling apart but right now I have to pick it back up and get back to the >> Israel I I remember um >> the night of My wife and I were celebrating um our second wedding anniversary. So I arranged to get rid of the kids, had a nice bottle of wine, nice music, and the phone rang and I put it on speaker and it was a friend of mine who's a uh military rabbi and he said, "We need you at um Harzel." And I said, "Why?" He said, 'We have too many bodies and we need you to help dig the graves.' So I said, 'Why are you calling me?' He said, ' Because I know you'll keep your mouth shut. [laughter] So I and I was kind of trying to explain to him that, you know, this is a special night for me and my wife. And all of a sudden, I see my wife walk into the bedroom with a thermos of coffee and tah to and she says, "Go. They need you more than I do right now. >> So transformed and I spent the night on on Herzil, Mount Herzil, the military cemetery with a complete cross-section of Israel. There were no arguments. There were no political debates, nothing from guys full of tattoos and metal piercings all the way over to her. Um, I was filling the white sandbags and as the sun came up, uh, I looked at one of the, uh, coffins and, uh, I knew the guy and, um, it was very difficult at that moment to kind of balance out my joy of celebrating my wedding anniversary with a wonderful woman, with the loss of a wonderful guy, with six children and a loving wife. But um I wasn't really angry or depressed at the situation. It's war, but I was depressed and very very angry at the people who led us into this trap because that man should have been alive. He should have been able to go home to his wife and children and he should have lived a wonderful life. uh he was a professional soldier but he he should have had the chance to have a a full life and that was taken from him and that also is part of Israel. It's not that the enemy takes our lives. We're accustomed to that. What we're not accustomed to is having our loved ones offered up as a sacrifice by our presumed betters in the government in the military. That man should not have died, but he was betrayed and abandoned by the same people that betrayed and abandoned me. On October 7th, uh my security phone rang. It's a Shabbat. I was getting ready to go across the street for u services, Shabbat services, and I have to answer it because it's glowing red. So, and it was uh the telegram um the Nukeba GoPro of what they were doing and my wife looked at it and she said, "You know, this is sick. What is this like FA? I mean, is this a movie?" And I said, "Uh, no, it's real." And she started crying. And at that moment, my life changed. How so? Up until that moment, I had assumed that I was the exception to the rule. My abandonment and betrayal was an outlier. Um, but what I realized on October 7th watching those videos, those horrible videos, was that the entire country had been abandoned and betrayed. And that's when things began to change for me in terms of my the possibility of me going political or having any association with the political process aka the swamp in uh in Israel. So, you go from moments of joy, I'm getting ready to celebrate Shabbat, to absolute fear and anger and um a feeling of nakama, revenge for what happened. I I have refused to wear a yellow hostage pin because the whole movement, the left has taken over. Uh and I warned certain people about that. um they changed from being anti-judicial reform to you know prohost to get them out to prioritize the uh rescue of the hostages uh to the exclusion of everything else and it was meant specifically to undermine the credibility of our conservative coalition government. So I I didn't wear a hostage pin. And when confronted by I remember one instance uh near Kikar Paris where they used to gather in Jerusalem the they the the leftist this woman came up American Anglo was screaming at me where is my hostage pin? So I looked at her and I just said do you know who I am? And she said yes. I said well did you wear a pin for me? >> And she said no. Why should I? you're a fascist. Okay, that that was and I thanked her for her cander on that. So, I wore a pin that said Nakama because the yellow pin reminded me of the yellow star that the in this case the the enemy made us wear and I I refused to do that. My my position on the hostages was quite controversial here. Um, it didn't gain me any friends or allies, but I tell the truth. And I I related a story always of a submarine commander in war whose submarine is damaged by enemy action and the boat's going down. His responsibility is commander of the boat is to rescue the boat, keep the boat and as many of the crew as possible alive. So in some cases that you have to close off the damaged part of the ship, in this case a boat, and sacrifice the few in order to guarantee the lives of the many. And this was a concept that just people uh could not understand here because they've been brainwashed and um to the point where they they don't understand what it takes to fight terrorists. You you cannot validate the taking of hostages because what we've done now is is just that. We validated the taking of hostages and no Jew now is safe anywhere in the world because of that. So again, it's a controversial thing. I did a lot of videos for the right-wing families, uh, Tikva, um, and they were about bringing the their loved ones back through strength, you know. So, as I said, I didn't get any uh friends or allies uh by my position, but um sometimes you have to look at the bigger picture. You have to step back and this is why we elect leaders to make those hard decisions. But unfortunately, um we lack those types of leaders right now. I just wanted to jump in and ask you a question about that because I remember reading that when when you uh when you said I think the quote was something along the lines of maybe um maybe who knows because the media says what they want to say but it's came across as something along the lines of the hostage families should be put in detention camps or detention centers. >> No what happened was this was on channel 14. >> Yeah. and they take a lot of liberties especially with me because I'm not a bibista >> you know I'm I'm not a uh Benjamin Netanyahu you know >> right >> supporter >> so no what I said was that if the the leaders of the U left-wing the hostage family forum and some of the family members themselves don't shut up because they were undermining our ability to prioritize winning the war and They were the worst thing. They were going overseas and mobilizing enemies of ours ostensively to help the hostages, but their objective was to undermine our ability to prosecute and win this war. I said they the quote I used and Israel can sometimes be a very provincial uh place to live. I said quoting Cicero and I quoted the Latin which I won't do now but it it was in times of war the law is silent and in this case these fam particular family members and the movement itself left-wing movement were aiding and abetting the enemy. >> So I I I get all that and and that makes sense. And I think everyone in Israel there's I think there's a misconception that in Israel you have people who want the hostages to come home and people who don't want the hostages come home. >> That is but that is >> that's of course false. We all everybody every Israeli every Jew wants two things. We want to win the war and eradicate Hamas and we want to bring the hostages home. And the question is >> the political question becomes how do you prioritize one over the other? And some people prioritize winning the war some people prioritize bringing the hostages home. I happen to have been more on the side of prioritizing winning the war. I have sons that are soldiers. I don't want my sons to go in and fight and be I asked >> and be and be held back from being able to correct because of this. So my question for you was >> did anything change in your mind? What did anything change in your heart let's say when you watched those hostages come home to their families last week? Because for me even as somebody who did prioritize the war over the return of the hostages I have to be honest I sat there and I cried and I couldn't help but cry when I saw what was going on. And part of me said to myself, maybe this really did need to happen for the country to be able to heal and move forward. And even though logically it makes no sense and yes, we >> I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing. If anything later um I felt rage over this uh hysterical optimism that ensued. It's like people are so depressed uh and so discouraged and so fearful that they'll grasp at any reason to feel good. Well, I didn't survive 30 years in prison living according to those beliefs. I look at things very uh cold and crystallized. And what I saw reminded me of a defeated nation getting their prisoners of war back by surrendering. That's what I saw. I'm I mean I'm sorry to say this, but um on October 8th, uh I was asked by certain people, you know, for my opinion on how what we should do because I had when I came home, I had briefed a scenario. I used to be on a red team, what they call it in Washington, and the enemy team. And I um briefed a war in in Gaza, and one of the former chiefs of staff said, "What are you wasting our time for? We are never going back into Gaza." And I said, "That's a recipe for fail for for defeat if you think so because the enemy has a vote." So I gave a scenario. full confession. Uh I never imagined them coming across the border and taking hostages. Okay. So I I said we have to prioritize winning the war and I said I I'm feel that the prime minister should make a public uh announcement to Hamas. You either return our living hostages and the remains of the dead ones within 24 hours or there will be nothing left from Jabalia in the north to Rafa in the south. The largest, tallest building will be in Anthill. I have always opposed urban warfare because it devalues the lives of soldiers. It's a horrible, horrible mode of fighting. I've studied Stalenrad. I've The [snorts] worst one was Manila, believe it or not, in 1945. It was a meat grinder. And uh we can't afford it. I mean, if you're being utilitarian about it, we can't afford to lose soldiers. We can't. And for me, the most sacred individuals in Israel above and beyond the Rabonim and uh the Sadikim and the Mikubim are the men and women that put on the uniform to defend us. We owe them everything. And yes, another controversial statement I've made was that the the most effective killer of Israeli soldiers are the rules of engagement promulgated by leftists and enforced by uh judicial commasaars down to the company level. I I don't care about the enemy. I am not by enemy in the sense that I I would authorize just the indiscriminate killing of civilians, but I will not send soldiers into a building uh that has a target uh because they're civilians and en enemy civilians. I won't do it. I'll take the building out because those men and women um are my brothers and sisters and I will not squander their lives on the altar of some political correctness. I'm not going to do that. Um I remember a busload of uh young paratroopers tan khanim stopped. I was coming back from Malava Malika. I sobered up immediately and they all piled out and they uh were surrounding me. Most of them were Anglo and they uh asked me what is it like to be in combat? What is it like to have people shooting at you? What is it like to be scared? And um I looked at them and I I I told them a story that my father told me before Viet I'm from the Vietnam generation. And he said um to whom do you owe your loyalty as an officer? Who do you who do you and I said uh the commander-in-chief? He said no. Uh the Congress? No. Uh the flag? No. The Constitution? I mean that's what we swore to defend against enemies foreign and domestic. He said no. I said how about my commanding officer? And my father said a hell no. He was a cavalry officer from 1932 333 veterinarian then human doctor. He said you owe your loyalty unqualified loyalty to the man at that time the man on either side of you. And if the orders you receive compromise them to any degree, he said, 'I'll be proud to visit you in in the stockade in the military prison. Those are the people you owe your loyalty to. So I told them this and their officer wasn't too happy with what I but he really wasn't happy with what I did next. I said, "Do you all have the purity of arms little pamphlet?" And they said, "Yes." I said, "Let me see them. And I got about 50 of them. And I said, "I'm going to do something right now that I hope will save your lives." And I went over to a trash can and threw them all away. I said, "Everything in there is uh a there's nothing Jewish at all in there. We're given our orders from Torah. We we understand how we fight from Torah, not from that." I said, ' Do you Did have you guys read that? Yeah. They said, 'Yeah. I said, ' Do you agree with any of it? No. I said, 'So, forget about it. Shoot straight. Shoot to defend the guy or woman on either side of you and fight Aladoo Hashem because that's you're fighting God's war right now. So, they got on the bus. They looked a little bit relieved. And the officer came up to me and said, "Um, I've I've sent a message that you have nothing more to do with talking to soldiers." And I said, "Well, hopefully a kamas sniper will save me the effort of doing the same for you." [laughter] >> Wow. >> So, he he didn't like that, but I didn't care. Um so yes um there are moments where you get a phone call and you're in another reality here a totally different reality but that's one foot in that the other foot is getting ready to say and you have to somehow balance or merge both of them. Um, I was at a soldier's Levia in which the mother jumped into the Kevin screaming and I was standing back from the grave and all I heard was the voice coming out of the grave and um some guys jumped in and got her out. But um we as a people have not waited 2,000 years to be offered up as corbanote uh by our betters, presumed betterers. Um I can honestly say that I've never shaken the hand of any terrorists or their representatives. I have pulled a trigger on quite a few of them, but I've never shaken their hands. I never will. people here for some reason and it's because of the indoctrination of the media and are presumed elected leaders. They're not elected. They're cho they're chosen by the political party. We don't have really accountable representation here as we understand it say from the United States where you can go into a a congressman's office or a senator's office and hold a guy responsible or woman responsible for her actions. You can't do that here. So, um, for me, one of one of my goals if I ever get elected, uh, is to make sure that we have a different way of electing people in this country where we have accountability in the Knesset. We don't have it right now. We just don't have it. Our educational system is wretched. Um, our judicial system is appalling. I was in court a couple of days ago with my wife on another matter, a family matter, and I was sickened by the attitude of the judge. Misogynistic is hated women. No question. And he was open about it. But this this rot runs through the entire judicial system. Uh, how can you say we have a democracy? We have a a um juristocracy. I think that's the way I put it. Unelected judges from one political from one side of the political spectrum who feel that they have the right to dictate to us and override the will of our democratically elected legislature. This is not a democracy. So I met I was asked to meet with four officers, air force officers in the height of the um judicial anti-judicial reform protests coup d'eta which is what it was and I took them to lunch at a very nice restaurant and I I asked them a very simple question. I said you guys have all said you're not going to fly the reser you're not going to fly if the judicial reform package is passed. Correct? Yes. Okay. I said, "Would you agree that um you would fight for the land and people of Israel irrespective of the government just for the land and people of Israel?" I didn't say alto. I left that out, right? Israel is alpat. That's my philosophy. But I left Alpat out and they said, "No." Kind of shocked me. So I said to them, "Okay, I have just three questions left for you. Did we have a free and fair election?" And they answered, "Yes." I said, "Did you guys win?" And they said, "No." I said, "So you lost, right?" "Yes." "Okay, can you get over that?" "No." And I said, "Why not?" And they said, "Because people like you don't know how to run a 21st century government." And I said, 'What are people like me? Who who are you referring to? They said, this whole God thing. Oh. I said, 'Oh, well that's thank you. That makes it all clear. So I said, um, would you excuse me? I I have to go to the men's room. And uh, you know, the food was coming. So I got up and I walked around and talked to the matraee whom I I know. And I said, "You see those four guys there?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "They're going to pay for their meals. I I have another appointment I have to run to. So later that night, I got a call from one of them screaming at me. You know, how could you do this to us that you you you promised to pay for our meal and you disappeared and we had to pay for the meal? I said, well, you know, I guess I'm just kind of stupid. You know, I don't know how to run a 21st century government. >> Wow. [clears throat] uh you know I have to tell you that um you know part of our podcast and the things that we do is learning from other people and growing with them and hearing the messages and already you know such a short time in I'm already getting so much of that but I need to step a little bit back because I did tell you that I grew up with your face on our refrigerator and the free polard I just want to understand a little bit who you are like who were you when you were 10 years old where did you grow up if you don't mind give me a little bit of the background or who are you as a person did you grow up religious did Did you grow up in New York? I I I know nothing. I I I only know after Free Paul and it happened and we celebrated, but um I'd love to know and especially for my audience who's listening, how did you grow up? How did you get into the spy business? How did you >> The short story was I was born I had a Brit Ma, I had a bar mitzvah, I went to college, almost made it to Vietnam. Um >> that was in prison for 30 years. uh lost my wife here in Israel when she got me home. Uh remarried a friend of hers with seven children, which I didn't know about. Uh seven children, six girls, >> and um and here I am. >> Okay, great. But we got to step back a little bit. We got to step back after your Brits. [laughter] >> After my after my Brit. >> After your British before my Brit, you should understand that uh my family >> Yeah. Where are they from? Who are you? Yeah. >> Who am I? I'm a product of the past obviously. >> Yes, of course. >> Uh my distant ancestor was the gra. >> Wow. >> The vil on through my mother. It was a direct line. And um it's strange because a lot of my views especially on aliyah religious aliyah can be traced right back to what he proposed back in the 1700s. >> Uh I grew up in Texas. Uh, Galveastston, Texas to be exact. So, I'm not really an American. I'm a Texan. >> Ah, love it. >> That explains a lot. >> Yeah, that does explain a lot. Every, you know, >> Okay, good. Take me now to to your bar mitzvah. [laughter] >> No, before my bar mitzvah, every boy when I was growing up and I, you know, I'm a little bit older than I think both of you. Um, every boy on his 10th birthday got a gun. Uh, in my case, a rifle. And my father, who was a high-ranking army officer and a doctor and a research scientist, um gave me the only uh advice on gun safety that has ever seemed to be logical in my mind, which is uh if you're going to point the gun at somebody, pull the trigger. If you're not, don't point the gun at them. Uh and in Texas, this was heresy. >> Yeah. >> But I grew up with that. And then um eventually my father took a position at the University of Notre Dame uh which was a cultural shock for me because the Catholic University and uh it was in the north and uh when I was in school in Texas, we didn't learn about the Civil War. We learned about the War of Northern Aggression. And every morning when we put hand on heart, we had we didn't have Abraham Lincoln, we had Sam Houston. We didn't have the stars and stripes. We had the lone star flag and we sang the eyes of Texas and all the Mexican kids sat in the back and were quiet. That's where I grew up in the south. >> Keep going. >> I never experienced any anti-semitism in uh Texas. um you know when you have a second amendment enforced even down to 10 years old you you tend to watch your mouth very carefully around people so I never experienced anything that's not to say I didn't experience it up north um it was very bad for me I was usually the only Jewish kid in class the school and uh my father uh basically said you know you got to tough it out And um it was hard as a young young boy >> as a teenager. >> No, before that. >> Oh, even before that. >> Before that, you know, fighting, you know, a mob of anti-semites. Uh but my father told me, "Pick one and make sure he doesn't come back again." So I did that and finally he gave me a knife. >> Juice. >> Yes. And finally he gave me a knife, >> which was the origin of my ability to use a knife, which saved my life on innumerable occasions in prison. And I I cut somebody. And so I was brought into the principal's office um a a drunk Irishman, anti-semite, and he said, "Give me the knife." I took him literally. So, I um drove the knife into his $3,000 Herman Miller desk and he screamed and called the police and my parents showed up and I'm just sitting there. I'm not really scared or embarrassed or anything. >> Well, I'm sorry. You're not a teenager yet. >> No, no, no, no. >> And uh so my father came in. He was apprised of what happened. And he looked at me and he said, "Did did you do this to put this knife in the desk?" I said, "Uh, yes, sir, I did." He said, "Um, what did the desk do to you? You should have put it between the guy's eyes." So, uh, that's my dad. Great guy. So, I was excused from attending that school again. And I went to a Catholic school. Wow. St. Joseph's. And um that was the beginning of my formal Jewish education because they brought a rabbi in from Chicago Orthodox Skoi to when they when the Catholic kids had catechism. I had and I was obliged to wear a keepa. >> Do you remember who he was? >> No, I can't remember. Okay. I can't remember. Young guy. >> Yeah. >> And uh it was wonderful. Apparently, the Monscior had warned everybody in the school that if there were any disrespectful remarks made to me, um they their hide would be worn out. And I was >> He's carrying a knife. [laughter] >> No, I I was amazed at how violent the nuns were. >> I mean, I I was scared to death of them. Um they they would beat boys up right in the classroom. And of course, the boys couldn't do anything. And what what what crime had they committed? They talked in class. So >> you're saying the Raam weren't the only ones to hit us when we were >> No, no, no, no. The these these these women with the big habits. I mean, they it was it was incredible. Actually, fast forward, there was a time in the United States where if you were a uh a pastor or somebody from the clergy, um you could fly for half price. So, I was flying from Southbend, Indiana to San Jose. I was attending uh Stanford at the time. And so, I said, "Well, this is crazy. It's $125." One, this this is this is insane. So, I went to the Notre Dame bookstore and I I bought a Roman Catholic shirt and pants with a collar and everything. And I had some cards made up. Um, Father Jonathan Pard, uh, the Jesuit order, you know, of Latter Jesus Christ, you know, the whole thing. And I had a huge crucifix. I mean, it's something that gangster rappers use, you know, but but at the time it may it served the purpose. And uh, I went up at the United desk and she looks at me and she says, you know, father. And I gave her the card. Pollarded. I said, yes. And uh she said, "Okay, you know, we're going to let you fly for 50%." And I said, "Thank you, my daughter." And I was feeling really good about my >> It sounds like the first time you were a spy. >> No, the first time I was a spy. I really don't want to go into that. Um [laughter] Um My sister hates me to this day. >> For something you did then? >> I was a little kid. >> What was it? I caught her I caught her doing something and I ran to my mother and father and I said uh I want a room now [laughter] and my father said you never inform or rat on your family and that's when I learned the idea of you never moser a Jew and I was punished [laughter] about my sister. So I learned that when you you know when you're an agent you you better know what you're saying and to whom you're saying it. So, at any rate, I'm standing there feeling very good about myself and there's a tap on my shoulder and I turn around and there is the provost of the University of Notre Dame priest and he says, "Father Jonathan." And I said, "Uh, yeah." And he picked up the cross, sorry. He picked up the cross off my chest and he said, "Never say that Jesus Christ didn't do anything for you." [laughter] And laughed. He laughed. My mother was incandescent. My father thought it was pretty funny, but my mother, she was a strict um Yankee from Pittsfield, Massachusetts. And my father was uh off a dairy farm in upstate New York on Hudson Hudson River. >> And um so I I was in college uh mechanical engineering. >> What did you think you wanted to do then? I wanted to be a naval architect. I wanted to design warships. Um, and designing warships is as much about the technology of buoyancy and um, strength coefficients and things like that as it is the aesthetics of the ship. And I remember one of my professors uh, giving us an example of this of a destroyer stacks and he said, "What is this?" You know, this is a warship, right? And we all Yeah. He said, "No." He put another slide up and this was a Russian warship, the same class, same tonnage, but it had something different. It had a more pronounced bow, raked bow, and the funnels were tilted and they had what was called draculus capes on them ostensively to funnel the smoke away from the aft of parts of the ship, but it gave the impression of speed to the ship along with the bow. And he said, "This is how aesthetics scare the enemy because he said, "This looks dangerous." and we all nodded our head. He said, ' Remember that when you design a warship. So, um eventually, uh the war was over, came home and um I didn't know what to do. You owe the Navy four years. I'm on reserves. So, I called my mother from San Diego the pay phone. [laughter] >> Collect call. >> No, I I had changed. um they would have accepted it. But uh and I said, "Mom, I'm I'm home." "Oh, bro, hashem." Okay. So, I said, "I don't know what to do." And she said, "Well, you're going to go to law school now." I said, "I never applied." She said, "No, I did." Uh she got my transcripts, she got my LSAT scores, and she applied. She wrote the essays, and she applied to all these law schools that I got into. So I I was horrified and I said, "Um, where am I going?" [snorts] And she said, "Oh, Notre Dame." She said, "You can go there for free. Get a free law degree because your dad teaches there." But she said, "You're going to be in your old high school room and you're going to have a um, you know, a you have to come home with your father from school. Uh, you can't go out. There are no girls, no drinking, no smoking, nothing. and at nine o'clock we're having tea and pastry and you're going to continue working until 11 when it's lights out. And I said, I'm back in hell. So I said, you know, is is this what you had in store for me? She said, well, I told you a long time ago that you had three options for employment. You could be a doctor, a lawyer, or a plumber. And I said, why a plumber? And she said, 'Well, remember the time where we had some pipe problems in the kitchen and you were bent down on your hands and knees trying to fix the pipes and everything? I said, "Yeah." She said, "Well, I looked down and I said, "That's the tus of a plumber." [laughter] >> You the head for a lawyer and the tas for a plumber. >> Tus for a plumber. So after a year I was uh reactivated and I went to MIT for uh naval ship architecture and uh the first ship I I designed um this was before computers and so we had to use a slide rule and you know so the professor who was an admiral old guy did the numbers himself and he said your ship um was buoyant for less than a minute after it took a torpedo and it turned turtle and the entire crew died. What do you have to say for yourself? So I looked at all the other young as aspiring naval architects navy naval architects there and I said um my men died with honor and [snorts] he said no Mr. They didn't they died screaming for their mothers. So redesigned the ship which brashem was good. Growing up um it was a schizophrenic typical schizophrenic Jewish life. My parents were not orthodox. They were traditional. So my mother had a glot kosher kitchen. Anything that came into that kitchen she had to look at to make sure there was an acceptable ha. Um the meat had to come from a a kosher um butcher shop uh to make sure that he didn't put the thumb on the scale when he cut cut the meat. I didn't believe it until I saw it. >> It actually happens. >> Yeah, it actually happened. But we would go out and have shrimp cocktail. >> Interesting. >> Or meat or chicken. I mean, we never had pork ever. I never I've never had pork at all. Um, I've never mixed meat and milk. We were always sharabas. I stay home and um, but there was a little bit of schizophrenia. I mean, we would drive to the shaw with everybody else. It was what I call a um, conservox shaw. So we had a mita everything but we would the parking lot was closed and we would park down the street along with everybody else. There was no eye contact made, no Shabbat shalom, [snorts] nothing, just head down. And we would walk to Shaw, heads held high like we were virtuous, you know, we were we were shar No, we weren't. >> Did you Were you show Chabas in prison? Is that when you started becoming more observant? >> What happened in prison? >> I know I'm jumping a little bit. >> No, no, it's okay. I um was asked initially to I disappeared for six weeks. Nobody knew where I was after my arrest. And um the question I was asked before my rendition, I was I think I might have been the first person to have been renditioned before 9/11 and what happened with um the Taliban and the um ISIS guys that were that were al-Qaeda guys that were treated this way. I was asked two questions. um who who are your team members, where did they where how are they getting out of the country? And I I don't know. Okay. And then they put a list in front of me. This was within the second day uh of all the major Jewish leaders, American Jewish leaders. They said, "Just put a check next to them, all of them." Uh I said, "Why?" And they said, "Well, you're confirming their association involvement with your espionage activities." And I immediately understood that this was an effort to decapitate the American Jewish leadership. And so I said, "No, you don't mosa another Jew. Maybe in a kosher bed den you can tell the truth, but for the goyam, you keep quiet." So that night, I was knocked out, bag over the head. I don't know where we were. We're up in the mountains because it was cold, very cold. And I was in a stone cell, no clothes. And for six weeks, you know, I was asked the same questions. You know, you going to sign, not. I knew that if I signed, they'd kill me because you don't want someone like me coming into the court beaten up, tortured, and um you know, having had his confession, if you will, or testimony coerced. So, I'm not going to sign that under anything. So, for six weeks, um my back was broken in four places. I have a plate in my head right now. Um, my ankles, my toes, my knees, my hips, fingers, wrists, elbows, shoulders, everything was broken. And I was raped for six weeks during that whole time. And uh, a rabbi Rav here in in Jerusalem asked me, um, what were you doing for? Well, I wasn't really doubting. I was just asking God um to either have let me die quickly or just keep my mouth shut. And luckily he kept my mouth shut. Many years many many years later um I was in our house here in Jerusalem and the Mossad came to see me and Esther Al Shalom was sitting next to me. She I hadn't told her about this. She didn't know where all the injuries came from, but I didn't she didn't press the issue. So, I'm I was asked to co-sign or countersign a document that I had not talked. They had already signed it. So, I just, you know, turned the page. I'm looking at what's there and it was everything that was done to me. So, I I asked them naively, "How do you know this? How do you know all this? They said, "Oh, well, we signed off on it. We You were Hefka, you know. We didn't really think you'd live, and here you are, so you have to sign this." Um, this is why I'm under the protection of the Shabbach and not the Mossad. They clearly want, they still uh have an issue with me. And it's not me personally. It was a conflict inter agency conflict between the organization I work for LAM which is an activity of the Ministry of Defense and the Mossad competing agencies and they just used my arrest as a means of destroying a competing sister agency in Israel which still exists by the way. So when they brought me back to to Washington, my lawyers finally found me. Um the judge just looked at me and said, "I understand, this is in a seclosed court room. I understand that you slipped in the shower." And I said, "No, your honor, I slipped twice." He said, "Well, you're a smart boy. You just keep that story." So, um, after I was sentenced. >> Wait, can could we just back up for one second because I know like you're the first spy I've ever met. Have you Have you ever met another spy? >> No. >> Do you have any young children? >> Official professional spy. >> Yeah. >> And um, >> they can be pretty professional. >> You know, my first espionage case. >> What was that? >> With your with your sister? [laughter] >> No, actually it happened before then. I'm just remembering it. I was a little little little boy. I was losing my baby my milk teeth at this point. And my motheram said, "Put the your tooth in an envelope under your pillow and the tooth fairy will come." So I woke up the next morning and uh there was a quarter and I said, "No, this this this it just struck me as being inadequate." So I came down the stairs with my dog and I sat at the table and my mother said, "What did the tooth fairy bring you?" And I said, "Nothing. the tooth fairy doesn't exist. And I saw my father look at me and my mother looked at my father and she said, "I promise you the tooth fairy will come tonight." So woke up the next morning and there were two quarters there. [snorts] And then I understood, okay, I I know this game. Okay. So, I came down the stairs crying and I slipped in up onto my seat and my father's looking at me and my mother said, "What did the tooth fairy bring you?" I said, "I don't believe in the tooth fairy." Um, she didn't bring me anything. And my father put his hands out because I he knows he's going to get hell, looking at my mother, shaking his head, and she looked at him and she said, "The tooth fairy will come tonight, won't she?" My father [laughter] said, "Yes." So, the next morning I woke up and there was a dollar. >> I'm rich. >> I'm gonna buy comics. I'm going to buy bubble gum. I'm going to buy I'm going to buy all my friends Kool-Aid. Everything is great for a It's rich. >> Yeah. >> So, I No, it's a $1.75. >> Oh, right. >> Okay. You know, you got to keep track of these things. So, I came down and I got up on my seat looking rather sad and my mother uh said, "What did the tooth fairy?" Like an interrogator. What did the tooth fairy bring you last night? And before I could say anything, my father got up and he said, "The blankety blank tooth fairy gave you a dollar last night, didn't she?" I said, "Yeah, [laughter] yeah, she did." So, I learned the limits of deception at that point. >> So, your career started early, but as far as professional spies, you're the first one I've ever met. And maybe later you'll show us your exploding pen and your shoe camera and all the cool gadgets that we all know you must have. But what what is espionage? What does it mean? I mean, what did you do? What what happened? I'm just like, I don't even really understand what that even means. What was the process? How >> Yeah, let's let's rewind back there. So, you're you know, you're in How did you get recruited? This is the part I wasn't recruited. >> This is the part that I'm curious about. >> Yeah. What happened >> was I was uh placed >> I was in the Middle East for quite a while doing certain things. I was in New York actually before that for quite a while. >> Well, you're designing ships at this point. That's where we're back. >> I wasn't at that point, >> right? because the war on terror had begun and because I was from Texas and knew how to handle a gun and didn't seem to care too much about killing people. And I tried to explain to the Navy guys talking to me that, you know, if you're a professional soldier or sailor, you you have to be prepared to kill. And they they didn't. They said, "No, you seem to like to kill." And I said, "Where did you get that?" They needed bodies. So, you know, they put me down as somebody they could depend on. So, I was a year, year and a half in New York. Absolute mayhem. No Miranda rights. Nothing. Nothing. Just target eliminate. And then I went to Europe for a while and then the Middle East. Um, >> working on behalf of the government. Yes. >> In the Navy. Yes. Doing missions. >> Doing missions. Yeah. >> Whatever mission they would give you. >> Whatever they would give me. Okay. >> Anything that you're allowed to talk about? >> No. I I don't think so. >> Okay. >> Um and that's for a very good reason. >> Okay. I appreciate that. I don't want the Shabbak or the Mossad after me. >> That there there's some really bad people out there who have long memories. Um I didn't appreciate the US attorney >> uh during my sentencing, informing the whole world that I was the Israeli intelligence officer that put together the raid on the PLO headquarters in Tunis in October 1985 that was designed to kill Arafat. Somebody talked here and alerted him. >> Wow. And that came out there and >> and I looked at the the prosecutor and I said, "Thanks for putting a bullseye on my back." Wow. >> And because 91 of them of the uh 417 guys had died in the in the air strike. And he said, "You don't have anything to worry about. You're never getting out of prison." >> [snorts] >> Well, when I came home, I was informed on TV that uh the PA had put a $1 million bounty on my head. And um I guess it was typical of me. I just kind of sat there for a second and the interviewer said, "Do you have anything to say about that?" I said, "Yeah, I'm I'm worth a little bit more than that." [laughter] >> You do have security outside, right? >> Yes. I hope so. Well, thank God we all believe in Hashem here, so we're protected by that. >> No, I I I do. >> But you're you're you're serving missions. You're doing >> Okay. So, what happened was um >> I was put Nobody knew I was Jewish. I mean, I didn't eat pork. How did I explain that? I'm a vegetarian. >> Sure. >> And nobody So, I'm weird. You know, I'm a vegetarian. Okay, fine. Um, I was put on the team that was handling the USIsrael intelligence exchange agreement and we would, it's a quid proquo. We would give information to Israel or Israel would give information to us. We would do evaluations respectively, hand it back, whatever. >> I apologize for someone that's a little bit of unknown in this world. So, this is in what part of the uh time frame is this? In the >> this was about 1983. So in the in the early 80s there was something going on between us and Israel. >> Um something that you can explain to me a little bit more about what was happening at that time. >> I mean it's it's it was publicly known at the time that um we were the US I have trouble with pronouns sometimes that the US and Israel were exchanging >> uh intelligence >> okay >> on various things. And um what happened just before that was we in Israel uh raided the Iraqi nuclear reactor. Now my involvement in that I I cannot confirm or deny. Okay? I I want to be I don't like lying, but I don't like telling stories that I'm not supposed to. So um I can't I can either confirm it or deny my alleged involvement in this raid. >> Okay. So right after that raid um Casper Weinberger who was the then secretary of defense and Admiral Bobby Ray Inman who was had moved from the director of the National Security Agency to the deputy director of the CIA ai of the worst order um were outraged that we had used some of the material from the intelligence exchange to carry out the raid. You're welcome. [laughter] So, luckily my involvement with that wasn't quite known because there were there were a lot of people involved with the exchange at the time. So, they swore blood revenge. Why? Because we the US the Israelis had um angered uh one Middle East ally at the time, Saudi Arabia. So what happened was there was an undeclared intelligence embargo that was enacted. And by the way, this all came out in the open. And this is why I can talk about it when Admiral Bobby Ray Inman was going to be nominated. I believe it was for the Secretary of Defense. and uh this issue came out and he went postal on a press conference explaining the whole thing. I mean if I had said half of what he said I I would have gotten additional charges but he he he helped me. I mean he just laid it all out as the genesis the besid of what happened with my involvement with the Israelis. So, I'm seeing, you know, a list of things we're supposed to exchange and I'm only I am only in possession of a fraction of it. So, I went up the chain all the way to the sec secretary of defense's office saying, "What the hell's going on?" And they said, "Just uh you know, if they have a problem with an enemy system, let them lose a couple of airplanes and they'll figure it out. You know, they're smart Jews. They'll figure it out." So, I understood what was going on. And um eventually it got to be too too much and um I made contact and um it was clear that I had crossed a line. So I uh basically made aliyah. Um, I had had citizenship long before it was officially acknowledged that I had had it. I had a two hood. I paid taxes, everything. Um, did I receive a salary? Yes. Just like CIA agents who received two salaries, one officially and the other one from whatever their cover businesses, I paid taxes on it. I mean, the whole nine yards. And um I'll give you an example of something. Um at one point we got information. This was before we had satellites, reconnaissance satellites here, the effect series in Israel. And so we heard information that there was a massive chemical warfare plant built in a place called Samara in Iraq. This is during the Iran Iraq war. And um [snorts] there was an official team coming to the United States to determine whether that was so. But I was tasked to determine whether there actually was something there. So the team, we met in a safe house and the team came to see me and said, "Well, we were assured by everyone in the Pentagon that these are just rumors." Okay. So I took them into another room where I had laid out the the mosaic the pictures of the largest chemical warfare plant in the world built by the Becttel Corporation by the way that uh Casper Weinberger used to work for. It was a um you know insecticide plant. That was the cover. And uh I remember one of my colleagues looked at this incredible facility and kind of rolled his eyes at me and he said, "You see, Onathan, it's sometimes better to deal with reliable ally, reliable enemies than unreliable allies." And um we had to fly two aircraft on that plant to verify it and we lost one of the planes. And so two families that I visited when I came back was to apologize for the loss of their children, their husbands, um because they died to protect me. So you know there were no hard feelings. I mean it's war. This is Israel. It's war. So, um, a spy, it's very difficult actually sometimes to remember who you are because, uh, my boss Rafi, not the general, not the Ramat Khal Rafi. May his memory be a blessing, uh, but, uh, the stunk that directed Lam at the time. He was known as Rafie the stinker and um had a nasty habit of abandoning Asians. I did not know that. So I was given my collection orders. Uh basically all the documents were supposed to have been given to Israel under the terms and references of the USIsrael intelligence exchange agreement. And a couple of times he went off to Derek asking me for political information, blackmail information that could be used on political leaders in Israel. And I said, "No." And he wanted to know the um identity of American agents in Israel. And I said, "That's forbidden. I'm not going near that." And it was lucky I drew that line because um that you can get a death penalty for that. And uh he looked at me and said, "Okay, you can you can do that. All right." But he said, "One of them is going to kill you." And one of them did. There was an agent and a CIA agent on the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee that um ratted me out. Um if I if you ask if I had to do it over, would I still do what I didn't? And yes, uh I am not a traitor. Um my indictment says so. The indictment said that I I was unauthorized, but I transmitted illegally transmitted national security information to a major non-NATO ally, parenthesis Israel, and in caps without intent to harm. But a problem, two problems cropped up in my life at the time. One was the fact that uh there was a Soviet spy in the CIA, you might remember him, Aldrich Ames. He was a mole, who was ordered by the fifth director of the KGB to blame me for all the then ongoing deaths of American and Russian agents uh and British agents, MI6 agents that were dying in in Russia because of his treason. and um they compromised a low-level Soviet agent here in Israel to kind of prove the circle. You know, the information came here and it got transmitted somehow to the Russians or the Soviets. So, one of the prosecutors came to see me at one point a long after I was sentenced and he said, "Do you remember when the judge had you stand up and ask you if you had any remorse for all the deaths you'd caused?" I said, "Yeah, I remember that." He said, "What did you say?" I said, "Yes, I'm I I have remorse that there wasn't one more." He said, "Where was your mind? Where was your head?" And I said, "My head, my mind. I It was in Tunis. We missed Saraphhat. That was the whole point of the operation." He said, 'Well, that's not where the judge's mind was. The judge's mind was in the basement of the Lefortivo prison, KGB prison in Moscow. And I said, "Why?" He said, "Well, Alder James, who had just been caught, had gone into the judge's chambers exparte. it was illegal. And it described for the judge in excruciating detail how one of the CIA agents, General Igor Trechikov, had been fed feet first into a furnace in front of his family. And I said, I didn't have anything to do with that. And he said, well, we know that now, but Ames was quite persuasive in pinning everything on you. So when the judge asked you, all he heard was, "You were sorry you didn't kill another US agent." He said, "Did you notice how many security agents were in the courtroom that day?" I said, "I thought it was a bit excessive." And he said, "That's because there were a lot of CIA field operatives that had volunteered to come in and kill you in court for what you'd done." And I said, "I didn't have anything to do with that." and he said, "We know that now." So, Senator Deansini, Dennis Deansini, who was then from Arizona, who was then the chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, wrote a letter to Clinton, President Clinton. Um, it was signed by everybody on the committee saying that I should be released and sent home because I I was f had been falsely accused in camera for a crime I didn't commit. And Clinton's response in writing, which I have, said that we know that now, but that um Mr. Pard had become too valuable um as a bargaining chip with Israel. That's in writing. >> Wow. So, the other problem I had was the fact that I I don't know if you guys remember Iran Contra. >> No, Oliver North. Of course. >> Oliver North. That's right. Well, one of the trips that I came home uh here, I was briefed into the program of selling weapons to Iran at a profit and then using the profit to arm the uh Contress in Nicaragua, which was illegal. It was illegal. So, um okay, I did what I was, you know, I'm a good soldier. I I opened up bank accounts for them. This is where the origin of my bank account in Switzerland comes from. I Yes, I opened up bank accounts for the American participants and um later in tax court after I was sentenced without a legal representative present, which was kind of weird. Uh you're guilty by the way in tax court and have to prove your innocence. It's like the code Napoleon. I come into this court in my jumpsuit, orange jumpsuit. I just been given a life without parole. I mean, it was. And the three judges, all Jews, look at me and say, "You know, Mr. Pard, you're in a lot of trouble." I said, "Yeah, tell me something I don't know. I just came from federal court across the street." So, they said, "Well, we know about this bank account, but we don't know the names. We have the numbers, but we don't have the names. So, things could go well for you if you give us the names. and they said, "We have a document from the bank that said you had no withdrawal rights. You just deposited money, so we know this isn't yours, but we want the names." I said, "I don't recollect. I can't remember." They said, "Why? They didn't mean anything to you. You're Israeli. Uh, they're American." I said, "No, these are patriots. they didn't use that money for their personal gain. And they said, "Well, it was against the law." And I said, "Well, what I learned in law school was the law is an ass, and this is the real world, so I'm not." So the judges looked at me and they said, "Well, Jonathan, for the next five minutes, you're going to be a very rich man." And I said, "Why is that?" They said, ' Because we're going to um put you down as the owner of these bank accounts. I said, 'But you just told me. It's I I had no withdrawal rights. They said, "We make the rules in this courtroom." So they said, "For five minutes, you're an extremely rich man." So I asked for two things. I said, "Could I have a cigarette?" [laughter] So I got a cigarette and I'm smoking. And I suddenly looked up at them and I said, "Can I assign any of the money to my mother or father or my family or is that okay?" And they said, "No, Mr. P, it's not okay. It's just a turn of phrase that you're the owner of the money." So, I kept asking for cigarettes. So, when I left, uh, as the door closed behind me, I heard the marshall screaming that that son of a uh, stole my pack of cigarettes. I just put it straight down. And, um, yeah. I I have to ask you um you know because again hearing and speaking to you with your amazing demeanor in terms of you know just being so easy to speak to good memory, calm, happy. I keep bumping into >> actually the funny thing about the memory was they kept telling me in court that I have a photographic memory that I should never be let out of prison because I can recall everything. And I remember looking at the judge and the judge looks said what? I said I don't know why I'm here. I don't know my name. I don't know why I'm here. I mean I was joking and he said okay you know you're you're not on Johnny Carson right now. You know shut up. So >> but but I'm curious like you know when you found out the news I'd like to understand that process you mentioned earlier something I can't get out of my head. Six weeks no one knew where I was. I I'm trying to understand what that means. I know there was a tremendously long article that you did recently in the past year where you discussed >> me. >> Yeah. Where you discussed the treatment that you had, a broken tooth that happened to you amongst other things. >> Well, you have to understand the first prison I went to, they couldn't beat or rape the information out of me. So, they put me in a special prison which was uh 150 meters down. >> If you don't mind, where were you when you first got arrested? Where was this? Where? >> In Washington. >> Physically. You were in Washington. >> Washington DC. >> You were at home. You were in a condo. You were in a hotel. What What happened? >> Um I went to I had Let me back up for a second. When I realized that the walls were closing, >> that's what I'm asking exactly. >> I I went back to Israel through a secuitous route >> and uh I talked to Rafi at the time and I said, "Look, um I've given I've given you everything that was required. Now reassign me. let me retire uh from the Navy and just reassign me to Europe. It's hard to believe this, but I was actually selling weapons for this organization, Lam, and they were taking the money for other project. I mean, you don't put a guy like me in that kind of danger. Um, be that as it may. Um, so he looked at me and he said, "What's your code name?" I said, "Danny Cohen." He said, ' Do you remember when I gave you that code name in Paris? And I said, 'Yeah, and I told you, you know, like, why did you give me that code name? You know, you could call me Haimey Lipshits for all I care, but why did you name me Danny Cohen? He said, well, as we told you, we had a Ellie Cohen in Damascus and now we have a Danny Cohen in Washington. He said, "We told you that the risks to the respective agents lives were the same. We knew that if you were caught, there was a high probability that they would kill you." So I said, "Yeah, and I told you at the time that that was bad karma." [snorts] So he said, "Uh, remember I promised to get you out?" I said, "Yeah, I remember that." He said, "Well, that promise still stays." It's a bald-faced lie. But he said, "I'm going to tell you the same thing we told Ellie Cohen when he came here and sat right where you are and said, um, the walls are closing in. They're on to me." He said, "Um, you have to go back for one last mission. Um, the Syrians, in this case with me, the Syrians are planning a surprise attack on the Golan. We're not quite ready for that right now, but there's a piece of military equipment that they need from the Soviet Union um that they need to to get before they decide to go forward with this um called a standing start offensive. And he said, 'The question you have to ask yourself is whether your life is more important than the lives of all your fellow citizens and the deployed army units on the Gulan. And he explained some more things to me about what could happen if this occurred and I had to make a decision and I said, "Okay, I'll go back." That's what a soldier does. >> Wow. At that point, you were able to stay in Israel. Yeah. >> And you could have avoided technically >> everything. I would have just retired, disappeared. Yeah. >> Wow. >> So, I went back and I I I have to admit there was a moment of hesitation on the plane where I just for a moment, you know, I just said, "No, I I have to stay." And then the plane moved so it was too late. >> And you're you're married at this point. >> Yeah. >> For how long? Um >> few years. >> Few years. Yeah. Yeah. A few years. >> Yeah. So you're heading back to Washington. >> Back to Washington. >> Walls are closing in. He's sending you on your final mission, so to speak, saying it's important. >> And And what And what happened was um two days before I was arrested, there were some Israelis in town to meet me. They did not have diplomatic immunity. I was very concerned about that, but they decided to come see me for operational reasons. And um I just had a feeling and I came back very late at night and I pushed the false ceiling up above my desk and there was a camera. So the alarm bells went off and my first instinct was to run, not tell anybody, just run right then. But I couldn't because I didn't have the information yet that was needed. It was a direction left or right. Whether the equipment coming out of the Soviet Union in question was going to Libya, which was to the right, or going to Syria, which was to the left. [sighs] So two days later, I got the information and I was arrested later that night before I could transmit it. Where were you when that happened? >> In the parking lot. >> In the parking lot where you live. >> Where I worked? Where you worked? >> I worked. So, some guy came up to me and put a uh I could feel it was a shotgun in the back of my head. >> And I said, "Um, I sure hope you're police." And the guy put an FBI badge in front of me. I said, "Okay." He said, "Just put your hands up." He took my gun and he said, "Uh, got to come back with me." I said, "No problem." And um they're trying to interrogate me, you know, like why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? And I said, >> where'd he take you to right then and then? >> To an interrogation room in my building. >> You knew where you were at that point? >> Oh, yeah. I knew that um the rabb I was going down the rabbit hole. And um so I had a red tipped cigarette that was a cyanide tip cigarette. And you know, I I just thought at that moment, you know, Jews don't commit suicide. We buy retail. >> Oh my god. >> And you know, I just decided I'm not going to go this route. >> You had it on you? >> Yeah. It was a pack of cigarettes. Yeah. Red tip. I put a red tip on it to, [laughter] you know, I'm not going to give this to a friend of mine, you know. Um, >> remind me not to bum a cigarette for smoke anymore. So, um, officially, so, um, I realized it was it was over. So I asked if I could call my wife at the time and which they allowed and I mean they're listening to me. She was part of the operation and um I gave her a code word on pasant in passing. I gave her a code word and she said um okay so goodbye and I said yeah goodbye. They didn't figure out what was going on. They were listening to the conversation, but it was very quick and natural. So, she dodged the uh FBI tale. She did what she was trained to do and um she warned the Israelis, get out and she was supposed to go with them. But this is why usually they never have real husbands and wives on teams like this because she came back. She should have gone with them. And when I saw her at the house, they were ransacking the house. I looked at her and I said, "Why are you here?" And she said, "I couldn't leave you." I said, "Well, we're both going to die then." I said, "That doesn't make any sense." Um, so that night I knew the drill because I'd done it. I' I'd conducted operations like this. you you leave the agent this under suspicion free and watch where he goes, who he talks to, what he does. So, I had a a secret phone landline that was in the apartment, which they never found. And I called and I explained what happened very briefly and they said, "Um, okay. Um, call us tomorrow." Okay. So, I went to work and I did what I was told to do. This is after you were arrested. >> Yeah. I I But I'm free, >> right? Because this is the process. >> The process. >> I have to ask you, where's that hiding spot? [laughter] >> So, um, you could say none of your business. >> I never believe where it was. I >> I want to hear it, though. >> No, no, no, no, no. Sorry. There's there's some things in this line of work. >> You could just say none of your business. >> No, I wouldn't say that. Um, >> well, that is, you know, >> just I'd have to kill you if I told you. That's all. [laughter] So, um, uh, the next night I get the call and I said, "Okay, I've I've I've done what I was supposed to do. I've confessed to being a Pakistani spy. It's called misdirection." And I said, "I'm ready for extraction." And that's when the ground fell out from under me. And the voice said, "Uh, Rafi never put together a rescue plan for you, an extraction." He said, "You're to come to the embassy tomorrow." I said, "That's stupid. I already confessed to being a Pakistani spy." I mean, I had Pakistani money in the house. I had fake tickets on PIA to Islamabad. I had pictures photoshopped of me with certain Pakistani generals. I mean, it was all done. It was set. and I passed my polygraph. So much for the accuracy of a polygraph. >> Well, you're a pro. >> They're tricks. [laughter] Okay. Um, and they said, "No, you you come in tomorrow at this time." So, I did. And there was only one tail behind me. Everybody else was at the Pakistani embassy waiting at a helicopter and overhead. So, we pulled into the embassy and I, you know, just looked around and everybody had come out to see me and I said, "Uh, I'm home, right?" Yeah, you're you're okay. And then a few minutes later, the chief of security came out whom I know, knew and know, and he said, "Uh, Jerusalem wants you to leave the embassy and come in the front door." And I'm looking up this driveway and there are hundreds of agents and there's a sniper and a helicopter. You know, I'm waving at him, you know, all this crap. And I said, you know, I'm going to die if I go up there. He said, those are your orders. I said, why don't you just shoot me and just say you thought I was a terrorist and take my wife in. She was very sick anyways. He said, "Take her in and they'll they'll let her go." He said, "No, we don't have orders for that. You have to leave." So, just before I got in the car, he held the door and he said, "I need your last report, left or right." And I just Okay. I said, "Right to Libya." And he I said, "Repeat that." She did. And I told him some other things which he repeated and he said I won't ex tell you what I responded to that and uh so they arrested me when I got out. Um, since coming home, I've been led to believe that there is a very good probability that the person in Jerusalem that ordered my expulsion was a Soviet Asian. They had to have me arrested to protect a do. So, I still don't know for sure. I don't know who it is. Uh but um there it's a wilderness to I mean to to paraphrase an author who wrote an interesting book on the National Security Agency or no such agency. It's a wilderness of mirrors literally. So, um, eventually I went to this prison and, uh, the commander looked at me, the warden looked at me and he said, you know, you see the grass, the sky, fresh air. I'm thinking, what is the matter with this guy who's a Goliath of a former Marine? And he said, when you come out, you'll be in two forms. You'll either be alive because you've agreed to cooperate or you'll be an old man in a body bag. Okay? So I just for the first time it was like a bat call that came out of my mouth. I said, "You know what? You don't run the world. God does." I don't know why I said it. So he looked down at me and said, "Well, we'll see." So this elevator took me down very slowly. I mean, it's a psychological thing. They they want you to feel the the boar, the pit. And I got down and um there were 31 other men there. I never saw them, but there were 31 doors and they were all in there for the same reason. They weren't talking. And so they put me in this cell that was three square meters. So you can figure out how much space I had. Just put down 3 meter sticks by 3 meter sticks by 3 meter sticks. You couldn't stand up in there. and slammed the door. Light never went off. Uh, nothing to read, nothing to write, no visits, no phone calls, nothing. You're buried alive. So, I sat there on this little tiny plank that was the bed of concrete and um I had my first conversation with God. >> [snorts] >> And I apologized for not talking to him ever before, but I said, you know, things are kind of tough for me right now. So there are no atheists in a foxhole. I I just assume God had a sense of humor, you know. You know, he made women. He had to have a sense of humor, you know. So whatever. Did I say that? >> Edit that, Michael. [laughter] >> Yeah. >> No editing. >> Yeah. Okay. No, no, don't don't edit it. You know, it's who I am is what? >> So this this is uh Sorry. Just so the sequence of events, this is how many days after you got arrested. this. >> Oh, this is two years later. >> This is two years later. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. This is the place that you were going to spend the rest of your life. >> My life in. So I I said to to Hashem, I said to God that look, just like Araino when he negotiated for the uh survival of Sodom and Gomorrah, I said um look, if I stop doing these 10 bad things and I thought about it and I said eight [laughter] and six and then I settled on five and God agreed five and I start doing these five good things save me and that was it. And so, um, the first meal I had, I I threw up because the meal, I don't know what it was. I I hoped it was dog food because dog food is sterilized. Um, and it was the same meal I had three times a day. No, no variation. And so, one day, uh, the door opened. I never left the cell. There was a toilet in there, a little toilet, a little sink for water. And uh they said, "Come." So I came out and I first thing I said was, "What year is it?" And it was seven years later. And um I said, "Okay, are my mother and father alive?" Because they were very poorly at the time. And they they said, "Um, yeah, they're alive." So first time I said bar hashem. So I looked down the hall and all the doors were open and I said what what happened to them and they said they all committed suicide. So I said I'm the lone survivor and they said yeah we can't afford to keep this place open for just you. So that was the second time I said hashem. So I got on the elevator and I literally came into the light and guess what? There's the same warden. And I have a problem sometimes with time and place. This was the wrong time. And [snorts] it was definitely the wrong place. I'm shackled. I'm handcuffed behind my back. And I just went up to him. I looked at him and I said, "You see, God runs the world, not you." And he knocked me out. Broke knocked a tooth out of my head, which I still have. And um I when I kind of came to I was laughing. The blood was all over me. You know, I could taste it. And um he was trying to finish me off and they were holding him back. I was smart enough not to say anything to him at that point, but I just thought, "Wow, I made that really mad and I was happy about it." So the next prison, the last prison I went to, I had never heard of before either. It was in the south in North Carolina. And the first I got there and the the warden said, "There are 5,000 inmates here. Nobody's going home, so you're going to wear this." It was a red t-shirt, so you're condemned. He said, "Let me ask you two questions. Um, are you going to talk?" And I said, "No." He said, "Good. Don't. Your your time will go better. Don't talk." and he said, "Do you have a knife?" I said, "What is this, a trick question?" I said, "No, I don't." And he handed me one. And he said, "You're you're going to need it today. Do you know how to use that?" I said, "Yeah, I know how to use one." He said, "Well, you're going to definitely have to use it today. Don't hesitate." I said, "Okay." And he was right. So, I spent the next 23 years there kind of in a military section. My roommate was a Delta Force. He was an assassin and he also had been abandoned and betrayed. So, we had a kind of a a bond in common. And um we watched each other's back. Uh they didn't lock the doors, so there were a lot of people getting killed at night. So we put a trip wire up and one would stay awake in the dark with a knife and then after an hour they'd wake the other guy up and they'd switch. So for 23 years I never slept. I mean it was just what you had to do there. And um some of the hardest time I did was when they moved somebody in next door to me by the name of Bernie Maid off. Now, I've known a lot of immoral people in my life. I have been known also to violate many of the laws of man and some of laws of God [laughter] in the course of my storied career. But Bernie was the first amoral man I ever met. Amoral. You might call him sociopath. I don't know. But he was amoral. and we did not get along at all. Um, I had very little to do with little to do with him. Uh, he couldn't do the time and he was trying desperately to get somebody to kill him. And um I was sitting at the table with two gangster disciple contract killers. They're very dangerous people. And I could sit with them because I'm not a rat. So, they were fine. We were talking and Bernie came up and said um he used the n-word. He said, "What are you doing with these two?" Whatever. And uh I said, "Oh my god." I looked at the two guys and said, "Look, I just got my clean shirt for the year, please. You know, I don't want any blood on me." They said, "No, don't worry." He said, "He can't do the time. He's not going to he's we're not going to touch him. Don't worry." So, at one point, um, he he baited me, goated me, and he said something very disrespectful about my wife, Esther. And I just turned around and looked at him, and I said, "What what did you say?" And he repeated it. You never insult a man's wife in prison. Ever. You don't You don't do that. But his insult was way over the line. And uh the same two guys pulled me off him um telling me, you know, come on, you're smarter than this. He wants you to kill him. So he went to the hospital. You broken sternum, broken arms. I mean, it was I went I snapped. And uh several weeks later, but nobody ratted on me. It was strange. the the captain called me in and um she looked at me and she said, "A little bird told me that uh someone looking just like you uh put uh maid off in the hospital. You want to respond to that?" I said, "Does the little bird have a name?" And she said, "I I'm not going to have him killed. I I know what you're capable of. I'm not going to have him killed." So she said, "Just answer me yes or no." And I said, "Captain, for as long as I've known you, I've never lied to you." Correct? And she said, "Yeah." I said, "I'm not going to answer this question then." And she said, "Okay." She said, "In that case, uh, you tell the person, she looked right at me who did this, that if I catch him, he's going to do six months in the hole on bread and water." And I looked at her, I said, "Why would you do that?" And she said, "Because he didn't finish the job." >> Wow. >> I said, 'Well, I'll tell him. I'll tell him. I'll pass along the advice. He was universally loathed. >> In the end, he killed himself, I think. >> No, no, no, no, no. He died. He was very sick. He had a number of ailments. And uh I remember when he had two sons who died. One committed suicide. The other one died of leukemia or cancer. And in both cases he came to me and asked me how do I say kadesh and what do I do? And I told him with the first boy that hung himself um a troubled young man a troubled man um I said you have to give money um to Saddaka to for the elevation of his soul. And he said I'm not a you know frier. I'm not going to do that. Why should I give any money? And I said, 'You have to. You You have to do this. He said, I'm not going to do it. So I did. I was making 20 cents an hour in the factory at the time. And I gave $5 to a charity for the elevation of this boy's soul. And I did it for the next son who died of he wouldn't give a penny. Nothing. nothing for his own sons. No, that's that's amoral. That's not immoral. >> What happened to your What happened to your roommate? >> I'm still paying his legal fees. >> He's still He's still there. >> Yeah, he's completely innocent. I've known a lot of men in prison who were overly punished, but he's the only one I know who was completely and utterly innocent of the crime that he was crimes that he was convicted of. He was out of the country at the time. He had an affair with his wife's best friend. The best friend, of course, had to tell her brother was an explosive ordinance guy for the army. They made a bomb, went off. his fingerprints were on the bomb and uh he was out of the country and the army refused to tell the court that he had an alibi because it was classified. And so he got more more time three consecutive natural life sentences and the judge himself said, you know, I I know you're innocent, so let the guy go. I mean, what's the problem? Well, that's American justice. I'm sorry. So, uh he was a bonafide noahide, by the way. First one I ever met. And uh from from birth, I mean, he was genuine no hide, a genuine item. And um I hope I can get him out. I don't know. >> Do you have people that visit him on your behalf? Is that allowed even? >> Be careful about that, you know. I've got to be really really careful about that. >> You You can't leave Israel, right? Is that >> No, I've I've left Israel many times. Oh, you have? >> Oh, yeah. For business. For business. mostly uh Europe, Eastern Europe mostly. >> You're not going to America though. That's not >> No. One of the reasons why I had to get out of the country as fast as I did. Yeah. >> Was because uh we were told that the incoming Biden administration was going to indict me for obstruction of justice asking for a life sentence. And it's now it's a sealed indictment. So if I ever decide to go back and there's no the only reason I would go back to the United States would be to get my parents and move them to Haramu or Haretim or something >> to bury them in Kev. >> I see. >> Uh so there's no reason uh for me to go >> if you don't mind because we're going to need to wrap up soon and um I don't want to to be [laughter] honest with you. um because there's so many things that come out of talking to you and you know I don't know if it's ever going to go left or right you know pun intended you know in terms of the discussions um didn't see that coming in terms of the relationship and who you were with and Bernie that story but I I'd like to know if you can take us to the part where because again I'm remembering as a kid and the whole world was advocating for you protesting for you and um it it meant a lot for me and uh you know I I could say on behalf of a lot of people that are in my family, friends and circle when we found out the news that you know the redemption is coming and >> we went through the process of you going into prison. Can you take me a little bit through the process of you getting out in terms of what how did you hear about it? What was that like for you? Um, you know, >> I I came up it just we don't believe in coincidence as Jews, but it just so happened that I came up for my first um parole hearing, statutory parole hearing at the time of the um political debate over the JPOA with Iran, the joint comprehensive nuclear agreement with them. And um the first parole hearing was a disaster. And um my lawyers were telling the assistant attorney general for national security the fact that there were any number of people including the former uh head of the CIA that was advocating for my release because I'd come up with a number of technological developments that would be good for the United States. And the the guy on the TV, this assistant secretary, assistant attorney general, said, "You know, we don't care. We don't care. You know, you're staying in prison for the rest of your life." And I looked at my lawyers and they said, "Say whatever you want now. Just don't curse." So I looked at the guy and I said, "You know, the tragedy of this situation is you hate me more than you love the United States." And he went berserk. Oh, my lawyer looked at me and said, "You know, that was good. You got him. You got him." So, the second hearing came up about three, four months later, and I just said, "Why am I going?" I said, "Well, you have to." Unbeknownst to me, the Obama administration had decided to use me as a means of embarrassing Israel. and those people in on the Senate in particular that were kind of backing Israel's call for the United States not to reach a nuclear agreement with Iran. So, I show up to this hearing and the first conversation is, "Well, you're going to be going to New York." And you know, it's and I just looked at my lawyer and I said, "What? What's he said, just be quiet, just listen?" And um Okay. And I didn't know that that day on CNN and everywhere else there was this barrage of horrible anti-Israel propaganda coming out from the government that this man who got parole today was responsible for the the worst, you know, uh, treason in the world and, you know, so many agents died. It was just total lies, but it was meant to embarrass Israel. Well, like Balam and Balak, it kind of backfired. So, the day before I was supposed to be released, I was called to the warden's office and the secretary looked at me and she said, "You know, I'm really sorry, Jonathan, but um you're not being released." Okay. So, I went back home steaming and I called uh Esther. She was my morah. And I, you know, the worst thing you can call an Israeli is a frier. That's the worst thing. You can call him a murderer. You can call him a two-timer. You can call him anything you want. You don't call an Israeli a frier. Those are fighting words. That's how I felt. So she said, "Okay, be quiet. Be quiet. Do whatever comes into your head." Which I did. And uh 2 hours later I was called back to the warden's office and the secretary looked at me and she said, "I am so sorry. I switched the names. You're leaving tomorrow at 7:00." So this is the only braha I give to people what I do for because what I said because I know it works. That's what I said and I it just came into my head. So there is there is there are two things I would like to share with you or or three things just if I could in conclusion. One day um it was very snowy and um the roads were impassible and the captain came to see me and said you know we don't have visiting today. The cameras are off. They're all frozen, solid, you know. But your wife is in the visiting room, Esther. She walked 10 kilometers in the snow. You couldn't even see the road. She just walked. And he said, "My own wife would kill me if I didn't let you meet." So he took me into the visiting room. You know, there you not supposed to touch your wife. You know, nothing. So, you know, um the captain just said, "You can kiss her if you want. It's okay. You know, nice a restrained kiss. So, I said, "Okay." I kissed her. So, we sat down. I had my arm around her and we're watching the snowfall and I look over at the officer and he's snoring and I know that the cameras are off. I said, "Excuse me?" I went over to him. I woke him up and I said, "Do you want to make $1,000?" And he said, "Um, what do you have in mind?" And I said, "Just leave." I said, "I know the cameras are off. Just stand outside the door for 20 minutes. You know, I keep locked the door." And he looked at her and he looked at me and he he said, "You know, if it were anybody else, I said, I know you want kids." He said, "If it were anybody else, I would say fine, but he said, if she gets pregnant, it's my neck." I because I I'm going to lose my job. I'm sorry. And I said, "Oh, it's okay. It's fine." So, I sat down. So, Esther looked at me and she said, "What was that all about?" So, I told her and she hit me in the shoulder very, very, very hard. And I said, "What did you do that for?" She said, "$1,000. That's all I'm worth." [laughter] And I said, "It's all the money I have in my all the years in prison working slaving in a factory. This is all my money." So that [snorts] this the second story was um what happened. There was a a man, an older guy who had broken out of every prison he was sent in, never hurt anybody. He was a serial bank robber, very successful, embarrassed the police. He was dying of pancreatic cancer and they were not giving him pain medication. and they wanted him to suffer and boy did he suffer. So one night um the guys came and got me and said he wants somebody to kill him. You you got to deal with him. I mean you talk him out of it or something. I mean you he never ratted on anybody. So he's a righteous guy with us. So you don't want something bad to happen to him. So I sat down next to him on his bed. He was crying and I held his hand and he said, "Please kill me. Please, I'm begging you. I can't take this anymore. The pain. So I looked at him and I said, "Listen to me. You know you're going, right?" He said, "Yeah." I said, "You're going to be before God soon and you don't want to go down. You just want to go up if you can. So you have to live another day and another day." And he said, "Why?" I said, "To bless God. That's why. And he didn't understand really what I was talking about. And another friend of mine who also was dying of cancer, but they were going to let him go home on compassionate leave. He had maybe a month to live is metastatic. He isn't going to be. He ripped the Vicodin patch off his arm and it left a blue line which meant another five years. and he slapped it on the guy's neck and the guy just kind of relaxed and we were all stunned. I I looked at him and I said, "What did you do? Are you crazy? You're you're you can't you're about to go home after God knows how many years. You've been 35 36 years in prison. What? Why did you do that?" He said, "I listened to what you said to this guy and he said, you know, I've lived a very bad life. I've killed a lot of people. I've done a lot of bad things. He said, "Maybe what I just did will look good in God's eyes." So, of course, within about an hour, he was arrested. There was a rat. He was arrested. And I the next day with hundreds of inmates, black, brown, oriental, white, whatever, were lined up at the internal security office to plead for this guy. So finally I I indexed up and I I looked at the um officer and he said, 'What are you doing in here? You never talked to us and I said why I was there and he said, "You see the shredded paper?" He said I said, "Yeah." He said, "I shredded it." He said, "I can't charge him after what he did." He said, "It was one of the most um altruistic things I've ever seen in prison. So he's going to go home in two days. we're we're going to advance it and let him go home. So, in two days, almost everybody in the prison was lined up uh to say goodbye. Why? Because in an environment like that where life is really really cheap, for somebody to stand up and do something like that with nothing to gain from it um kind of gave us all hope in man. So he died about three weeks later. The last thing um I have to tell you is one day Esther came to see me and she had been sent by the cabinet, BB's cabinet. Um I was surprised. I said, "What are you doing here?" And she said, "Um Carrie, the Secretary of State had offered to release you." I said, "What's the catch?" She said, uh, he wants 150 terrorists with blood on their hands to be released. And she said, "You can't come home. If you agree to this, you're going to stay here in the Midbar for the rest of your life, free, but in the desert." But she said, "Before you answer me," I said, "Why? Why? Why? Why am I being asked?" And she said, "By's putting it on you. It's up to you to decide whether this deal goes forward or not. I mean, I thought at the moment that's a really horrible burden to put on me because I know I'm never getting out otherwise. But he also understood what I was going to say. So she said before you answer I want you to understand that whatever you decide whether you decide in prison to stay in prison I will stay here with you or if you decide to stay in the midbar as she called it uh I will stay with you. That's why over her grave on her stone um kind of a half moon half circle is the quote from Tahaleim. I knew you were in your youth in the in the desert. I loved you in your youth in the desert. So she said, "What's your answer?" So I said, "No." She said, "Well, could you give me a slightly longer answer because I have to go back and and brief the cabinet." I said, "Yeah, hell no. And she said, "No, you know, you're an educated man." I thought, you know, could you just give me an educated answer? And I said, "Okay, fine. There are three reasons. Number one, it would devalue the life of the victims. Number two, it would uh lower deterrence. It would encourage other murder other Arabs to murder Jews. And thirdly, it would it would inflict terrible pain on the families that while they might want me out, not this way." So she said, "That's a very those are very good answers, but it's not the Jewish answer." So I said, "Okay, what's the Jewish answer?" And she said, "There are only two ways you can come home. Either as a met, you're dead, and we'll put you in Knesset Israel, or you'll come home as an old man and kiss the ground." I thought why isn't there a third way that I could come home as a young man and just you know but that that's what she told me she said I want you to remember something go back to the meagalim they actually voted to stay in the midbar for their co and she said we've been paying for that ever since so she said that is why you said no because you don't want more pain and suffering on the Jewish people because of your decision to stay in the Midvar. And I said, "That's the Jewish answer?" And she said, "Yes." I said, "Okay, you can put my put my name on that." But that's why I kissed the ground when I came back. Um I it just seemed like the natural thing to do. Um, so >> I'm really happy that you spent time uh telling us about her because it was on my mind a lot and I appreciate that. >> Esther, you know, look what she did at the end of her life. She did the with my current wife. She just had hours to live. And you know when I asked her why why did you do this? You know I heard the words I was living in dread hearing. She said, "I am I'm going today and I want you to be happy." There was uh a moment when I was asked to go up to the Golan Ramata Golan to look at some things and um she insisted on coming and I said, "Sweetheart, you can't walk. You know, you can barely breathe. You know what?" She said, "I I I have to go." So I carried her and she said, "Uh, take me up to the top of this little hill," which I did. And there's Syria on one side in Lebanon. I mean, within a couple of meters, and we have security around us, and she said, "Um, look north." I look north. She said, "What do you see?" I said, "Uh, I see." I mean, the flags were everywhere. And she said, "Look further. What do you see?" And I said, "Uh," and she said, "No, look with your nephesh, as far as you can see. What do you see?" I said, "I don't know what she said." So, she said, "Uh, I won't be around to see it, but uh hopefully you will be. So my parting gift to everybody is that we should all be Zoha to see that what she saw. >> Amen. >> Amen. Thank you so much for sharing. Really really appreciate today and uh wow. Thank you Dave for being here. >> Thank you for the unbelievable opportunity to be part of this. >> This was amazing. This is uh by me as the millions of people that bump into you in you know usually am every day. This was not a coincidence. >> No, we don't believe in coincidence. >> Exactly. We just don't. >> I can't wait to give Sudaka and Leila uh your previous wife. >> Raisel Brahma. May her nishama have an aliyah. >> Amen. >> And may all the Nishamas that are not with us have an aliyah. And uh thank you again for >> it was my pleasure >> your heroism for for thank you for being who you are. Thank you for your transparency. Thank you for your love of life and for infusing that into this session and this discussion guys. Thanks for subscribing. Thanks for listening. Thanks for getting involved. Uh I I can't ask for more. And uh thank you Hashem for this opportunity for being here today. And that's a wrap. >> Thank you. >> Thank you. Wow, that was amazing. >> [music]