Alternative Therapies In Halacha - Rabbi Mordechai Becher

ruther my boy and mache making sure Tara Maestas Boston like to welcome everyone to tonight's Shearer all the men here and the main shul the women upstairs and downstairs everyone listening on the phone and everyone joining in through the live-streaming booth on the button to everyone tonight we have the cover tab with us once again a remote I've ever seen your lectureship lecturer gateway seminar discuss alternative therapies and I'll offer the voice I love it didn't take part in the annual dinner by giving that donation can still do so call area Sheree Tara seven one eight eight five one eight six five one email tapes enter yeshiva net.com oh if you're watching and a live stream you can click on the donate button on the left side of the screen it's my cover to call on or buy better for tonight's Drescher thank you right okay so first of all before we start I should point out that obviously one should consult one's poise ik on all matters of halakhah and this is this year is not supposed to be a suk halacha for anyone it's it's rather LA hug del toral hadera and to discuss some of the suitors and obviously healing sickness is an area in which people it's very emotional there's obviously desperation panic stress and all these things make it harder to make decisions and to make rational decisions so what we're discussing is a whole range we talk about alternative therapies there is a very wide spectrum of what is meant by alternative therapies so on the simplest level it may be like something like healthy diet which is type of obvious exercise okay on the other end of the spectrum there are all types of activities which have do not seem according to say tell Hayashi according to simple logic to have anything to do with the disease or with healing of it an example of that would be dowsing people use rods too and pretend that it points to the area of the body where the problem is which doctors do this in South Africa very common Aboriginal as as which doctors do this as well they're also of course people who believe that for example you put a magnet on your head or on your wrist is going to do something the magnetic field is almost completely insignificant not going to do anything makes no sense logically and and in between there's a whole range of alternative therapies and alternative treatments now people are often drawn into them by testimonials so-and-so told me that it works now if you do something based on a testimonial anecdotal evidence that someone told you that it worked then you know that's people do that about Christianity and Buddhism and Hinduism and every single avodah Zarah and magic in the world there is nothing that lacks testimonials you so it's it's really difficult to base something on someone telling you but it worked for me okay also I should point out is very interesting Gomorrah in a voter's aura it's primarily a Mishnah it's a very long mission uh but there's also Gomorrah attached as you might expect in which the the Philosopher's asked there's a caning Roman Roman wise people asked the zucchini we know that tan I'm used to go to Rome and to lobby tax releases etc so please go to Rome so the philosophers asked them in Rome if I could Osborn who doesn't like avodah Zarah if you're God they say doesn't like ivona Zahra why doesn't he just wipe it out why does he get rid of it so they said you know they said well had if the idea vada Zahra would be worshipping things that the world has no need for then that would be fine wouldn't be a problem problem is they worship the Sun as we saw yesterday right they worship the moon they worship the stars they worship things which the world requires in order to exist so if I got as Bohr who is my battle knows that's it goodbye to the planet you say goodbye to existence so the father says so fine so he could be mavet i'll let him destroy things the world doesn't need that they worship and leave those things that they do worship so how come him said yep that would now give credence and evidence for the things they worship because they say look at that that thing got destroyed and this thing still exists obviously it has it has some type of power so so cause both in the end it says eylem commune hug I know Hague Hashem lets the world run according to nature and the fools who choose to make a mistake they'll make a mistake and then the Gomorrah discusses the following it says there are cases a person is sick and he goes to a house of avoid Ozora he goes to this place of avodah Zarah and he is healed he's healed so how does that work so the Gomorrah there says I won't go through the whole Machel the Gomorrah gives but the Gomorrah basically says the following if the disease was meant to end after seven days if for whatever reason either because of this curse or because of the natural course of events or history law or whatever reason it is the disease was meant to mend after our end at seven days and it so happens that on the seventh day he visits the avodah Zarah how could his boar who is not going to change the nature of that disease he's not going to change that ever show ILOM because of this fool who's got to attribute it to avoid Ozora so therefore the fact that something works the fact that this person apparently was healed because I'll say that's not a proof of anything if it was a proof of something you'd say to proof avodah Zarah so that's the first point that we have to understand secondly people often point to things as being ancient if it's an ancient cure you ever heard that one ancient wisdom it's an ancient cure you know what one of the most ancient things in the world is avodah Zarah that doesn't make it correct the fact that something is old just means it's old doesn't mean it's more correct doesn't mean it's less correct there are old things which are right there are old things which are wrong ancient wisdom does not automatically mean a thing number through number three Oh gets questions like number three people will say something like this it's average book but but I'll get right people we'll say but it's natural to which we would respond so is arsenic poison ivy uranium hurricanes sharks poison spiders snakes they're all natural this doesn't automatically the fact that something's natural doesn't mean automatically it's fantastic you know I mean there are natural things which are great like aspirin there are natural things which are not good so the fact is natural meaningless so again I just wanted to point out some of the things to be wary of in terms because people are desperate and because there's the pressure and because of the sickness and so on and so forth people are more likely to accept things say otherwise would not accept okay now to get to the meat of the of the idea first of all as we know from the passa says the posix says that for our poor up here that one man hurts another man says we're a player up a shell heal him and rub you smile the very small says makan Chanute nourish us the rifle or a place we see here permission has been given for the physician to heal Somers the Rambam points out it's a rooster mitzvah meaning it's an obligation to heal we know that the obligation to heal comes from a number of sources first of all the Haber hem and also from low Sam adult America don't stand idly by the blood of your friend also we know how service Aveda the Gomorra says if your mockery of if you are high if to return something like someone's property like they're sure said etc come or then coal chicane you have to return restore to them their body what is her service evaded to go for what does it mean they lose their body they might lose the use of a limb they might lose their health so the fear of a Sabha surveyed involves restoration of someone's facilities someone's faculties someone's limbs someone's sensors and someone's health and all that is part of the field it is true the Rambam and some restrain him say that someone who's on the highest level of Batak on someone who is at SATA cut zoom like room Hanina Ben dosa does not need doctors but the nicer Calum in short Nora point out that it is unlikely in the extreme that there's anyone today who qualifies for that status whether am ban would say you don't need a doctor because you are just you'll be talking this just awesome alright that doesn't seem to be likely for a person to consider themselves that way is I think probably arrogant so the shorten are of however when it talks about resource Laroy fair when it says permission has been given to the rifle shove narcan you're a daya she llama bob says the following me Louis Asik before alien cane who Bakke a person should not engage in healing unless he is an expert viloria Haitian God told me Meno and there is no greater expert there than him shim liking her raised SOF dumb him it's a serious issue here the person who does not who is not aware has not studied let's say biology chemistry Anatomy he's taken an online course in in I don't know II do therapy etc and and he feels that he's now Bakke and he is willing to this that that's a serious problem right that is soy FF dummy Theory partially bearish was based in higher Batoche loom him as opposed to a doctor who heals with permission because he's an expert he has permission from the basin so such a person if he makes a mistake if he if he if he hurts he's not five in touch women but this person who's not business based in must pay so it's a serious issue so one issue when we are talking about is of course sri first um him and you know as the Mishnah brewer as a friend of mine pointed out the mr. Barratt often will say eraser maniac milliwatts me so you know that's true it's a good thing to be marked maybe if this was something you would like to be math Mirian i would suggest to to pretty central issues number one is psycho no sifakas and number two were going to get to his avodah Zarah avodah Zarah couldn't be more central of a resort gomorrah Magilla says call her coy fair bhava Cola ha clay fair Barbara's Erica my debacle at Oracle our column oider the turkic - Rose our if you if you admit to the power the strength the existence the reality of avodah Zarah that's considered fira a denial of the entire Tyra that's that's that's serious so if there's an area would you like to be mocked Marian probably a good area to be mapping I recently was in Vietnam and Thailand leading a tour of Vietnam and Thailand all the sacred Jewish sites there anyway but but people who go to these areas will often visit Cambodia and in Cambodia there's a there's a very famous temple of idolatry called Angkor Wat it's one of the oldest temples in the world dates back I think over a thousand years and I get a little research because I heard that there were tour groups who went there I did all research I found out first of all it's still used so it's not abandoned there are still Buddhist ceremonies that take place in Angkor Wat number one number two Mishnah and avodah Zarah says avoid Azura she knew akka he knew who are of daya Bashar Shalom mu terrace Bashar's Muhammad Asura if the idea arose or if the idolaters abandoned their temple at a time of peace that's considered to be a bit tool of what is Laura and annulment of the avitzur and its mutter it's permitted for me to now get benefit from it but if they left it abandon it at a time of war since their abandonment was reluctant was not willing so consequently is not considered to be a bit all that's not an annulment and therefore be prohibited so that was my research I asked rehearsal Shafter and he confirmed that this was accurate that it was a Serb but he gave me a look like why on earth would a Yid want to go to a mahkum avoid Azara even if it is abandoned even if they're not using he thought I was crazy here I know which he may be correct but but but it's but again if we want to be magma on something that's an area to be master on yeah avril lavigne oh right that's that's something which is very central so and of course as we know the gomorrah says the whole miss wrap him with anything you can be cured meaning if a person is in danger and they need to eat something truth if a person needs to eat traif food that is freshly cooked on yom kippur that's foul on Shabbos the doctor says you need the freshly roasted suckling pig that is roasted fresh has to be mother's fresh right etc absolute the whole works it's our and it's your cue before so opa locka because nefesh is darker because nefesh pushes aside Shabbos and Yom Kippur and and and and too much math Hollis and trayvis however the whole miss robin hood's my avoided Zara Gilly our eyes focused on we know that avodah Zarah is so calm or it is one of the three a virus that a person must die rather than cure himself using something which is avodah Zarah so that is something to keep in mind the origins of some therapy some alternative therapies the origins involve avodah Zarah some of them involve dark a high memory which is a less serious not it's less it's not as calm or it's not as stringent as i thought as aura and consequently it can be used in certain cases but that's something to keep in mind and we're talking about these issues the Rambam in a beautiful letter to the tumor say to the ha ha Meem in marseille he writes that a person should only believe in something with three reasons in royal ardent lahar Mian and the bear Cadmus lucid varam you should only believe something if one of three cases a parish on dovish a yell of TL of Rio Brewer Amedeo salad on something where there is clear logical evidence for example would be mathematics yama tree etc astronomy so you know you can predict to the to the to the second and so on and so forth number one number two a Shanee double xie Sugino odds-on bear hug netanyahu she or sack secondly something which you can perceive with your senses a third slushie double she cover I saw her odds are mean anivia Malaya mussalam or me not tsadikim and the third is something we have from Messiah from a tradition from the Navi m.l.a on a solemn from the tsadikim from the Torah those are the three things anything else he says if he says that we would say about the person pecci Yamin la hold of are the fool believes everything if the advertisement is nice enough good graphics he believes it if there's a testimonial people is a pecci Yami and local Davao there's a beautiful true ver of the Rashbaum there was a person who claimed to be the Messiah many people claim to be mushiya I'm not going to do that tonight they asked me not know but anyway but but people have claimed to be the Messiah in past there was a fellow in Sicily who claimed to be the Messiah he was in Palermo Sicily and so people from Sicily wrote to the rasa what do you think so the Rushford condemns him in very very strong very strong language very and and then there was a phenomena parently there were people at the time of the Russia who were claiming navour people claiming all types of visions there were people rising up who were claiming to have never revisions that that this was imminent this is about to happen etc so the rush but writes a lengthy truth I won't go through the whole thing but I want to just the the last paragraph of it is very very interesting how he puts it he says the following yes royal mostly does famous you sir all the Jews who are inheritors of the true religion of truth Binet Yakov ish Amos the children of Yaakov the man of truth who lies era Amos people who are the children of truth nice lamb Liz ball or gallows they are happy to accept upon the sells the yoke of Exile Oh Marcia Geum and what happens to them in this exile may harm in bed over from believing something which is not true he says 'add she f guru Akira robber Akira are caja Kira until the Jews investigators with great great investigation one one test after another lajas vehicle seat mount Volmar near moral ahem to remove all types of floors from that which was said to them he says I feel almost a year Allah I'm sure I saw waifus even something which you see that appears to be a miracle or a wonder he says we see that the avasara mother and Erica MS the love of the people of Aram who are following the way of truth they were even not prepared to believe in my Shero banal until they had the absolute evidence of Harrison a she says does their ice ms l am a no Amish m and this is a sign of the truth of our nation the people of Hashem shallowly his pottery speed of are not to be seduced by things and on damaja ms Bach Akira rubber Akira Gomorrah that's a very powerful statement of the Russia that one of the signs one of the seals one of the indicators of Claudius role is we are no clay duster ms children of Yakov Hashem has cool eyes era MS that we are not supposed to accept things just like just like that Akira Akira to investigate to look into it that it should make sense that it should be it shouldn't be just based on something very very flimsy pieces of evidence etc and the random of course says a similar thing now LP halacha there are a few issues that are involved here number one there is the there's obviously a field for the for the Roy fair Laura POIs there's a fear for the doctor to heal as I said because of a rapper a rapper according to those who say it's a Schuster Mitzvah and because of the hive ahem Roy sorrel damn race ha ha shava survey to all the various human obligations and similarly there is a fear of on the patient to seek medical attention and not to not to rely on miracles we say that is it Saucer to assert to rely on a on an ace and and so therefore the question is if one is involved in a therapy which is not which is not based on evidence which is not based on logic then are you fulfilling that mitzvot is the physician fulfilling this minister is the patient fulfill mitzvot that's a good it's a good question and it's not clear well we'll talk about that secondly when we are there are various is cerium which as I pointed out especially if it's danger to life where we are allowed and obligated to the to to eat non-kosher to kill or Shabbos is allowed for various for for an illness which is a Suffolk Natasha's etc so question is also and we'll talk will just point to a Makura about that does that apply to something which is not a refer according to nature so let's have a look first of all one source is a very famous Mishnah in humor which talks about someone feeding someone when on Yom Kippur there seco there there there there you know they seem to be close to fainting etc you can feed them so if if we feel that it's a Sakana it's a danger for them to fast you can feed them even if the only food available is is not kosher food AB see you rule a nerve till their eyes are you know light up etc then it says mission asteroid kill exciter a person who was bit by a killer soit is not a stupid dog it's a gravy dog it doesn't snot no question about the IQ of the dog right but it's a Rabia and I offend any dog owners but it's a Rea vide dog which is of course quite dangerous to be bitten by a rabid dog ain't my fuel no soma cuts a cabbage slaw you very much even here'sh motto you know how to feed the person from a part of the liver of that dog they believed the time that you could cure a person who was bitten by a rabid dog by feeding the person deliver part of the liver of that dog so much of interest said that's okay obviously the liver of a dog is not kosher clearly right the item or a bunch of its clothes should be good okay then so now I just want to point out the Cohanim disagree and the Rambam says in purush Matthias is a very famous Pearson wish nice here he says ain't allaha kerub match up in Harris sheets Aloha Hula sodomy on some key purchasers coverage tool aquellos item no sir we did not pass can like her much of in Ferris who permits feeding someone a piece of the liver of the rabid dog on Yom Kippur if you sniffing why the ramus is midnight Shane memorial Ayla but Derrick Sagawa it only helps through a now suppose having to translate but I would say what it means is a supernatural or an non natural cure so for example if a person cusp of Solomon breaks an arm breaks a bone so a so setting the bone resetting the bone and putting him in the correct place and stabilizing it that makes sense it's logical to school but on the other hand taking a taking a bone and holding it over his bone and putting it together right and and say now it's fine alright that's type of what we might call Sabula okay the car Tommy my memory ain't a female Mitzvah a labarie boy bill vowed showed of our borrower ha ha Meem hold this how we pass can that you can only be mottier and yo you can only permit Santi which is prohibited when the when the reform is devabhaashaa hey guy Yan Vani say on a pursuit Mohave no soy he mentions two things Marcus acronym whether the this I think so the Pharisees trial and the burqa Joseph but does he mean you require both he said two things he day on and they say on he going on means what logic logic Nisei on experimental or statistical evidence now there are certain things where we have statistical evidence that it works but we don't quite understand the mechanism and there are some things where it makes sense that it should work but we might not have sufficient statistical evidence as yet he says when it's a refers to Glee he says it appears to require both miss a on Hagen logic and Nisei on experimental or statistical evidence so my hope is whether requires both or not Morna book he misses to say only one or the other and the materi says either one or the other so but again what we see from the from the Rambam and he says this impure machine ayah says this is more in a book him ears that there's a requirement that there should be both he got on an essay on the rasp or in another true of a different River disagrees with the Rambam all he doesn't very respectfully but he disagrees of the Rambam and he says there are things that he gave us he gay on he says not do we don't understand everything and he says there are things that happen in nature which we don't quite understand even they great scientist might wilt not doesn't understand everything in nature physicians don't understand every single thing that happens every disease and cure etc so he says he says it would be sufficient according to the Russia if there is sufficient like statistical evidence even if it doesn't make sense to me and friend of mine told me that he he knows of he's a physician I don't know much about it but he tells me that there are drugs in which the statistical evidence that works but the mechanism is not quite knowing we don't understand how but we know that it does work so that would be something which the random at least and the materi and others say that if that and also my ramaa Rotenberg he says Amuro fuya doer right earlier refer you doer isn't allowed to be mad here and you say allowed to permit and is sir like eating the non kosher food if that's if the Sakana or so on and so forth and and appears at least from his true ver that he has the same definitions the Rambam what is a refer you do a that has to be logic behind it it has to make sense and that what's logic what is what does it mean making sense so here it's not so simple to to define that very it's it's hard to define that but but I think we have certain well-established understanding of various aspects of nature of the world and when someone tells me something which goes against that just for example when you dilute something if you dilute something and dilute it and diluted and diluted and diluted diluted so as we probably know what happens to the original substance disappears right so that means if you tell me that when you dilute something to the extent that the original substance is no longer there and yet it will still be effective I've got a question whether that's he gay on that's not logical it's not logic doesn't make sense I have seen someone swallow an entire bottle of sleeping pills I've seen you do it a few times yes but the sleeping pills are homeopathic sleeping pills meaning whatever substance was supposed to be there has been diluted to the extent that there's nothing in those pills except for some I guess flour and and sugar and stuff like that so on the bottle that says don't take more than necessary etc I'm not suggesting that anyone does this right I don't don't try this at home but I've seen someone do yeah so there's nothing in the original so it's got to be he gay on so you tell me but what about what's missing on some this so your names there's to be some type of we have Bora Hashem developed methodologies in the medical and scientific world of of investigating cures and investigating diseases and figuring out whether it actually works that double-blind studies randomized studies etc you have control groups you have try to eliminate the placebo effect which is which by the way I should point out there is such a thing as the placebo effect the psychosomatic psycho means of the mind soma is Greek for the body the mind psychosomatic the mind affecting the body and that's something which is true right so so we can't disregard that because that's the important thing the Rambam in fact says of course the famous gras who disagrees with him here but the short Norris says that someone who was bitten by a scorpion what's a little close I'll of a fill of a Shabbos you're allowed to say an incantation even on Shabbos even though refer is normally not allowed on service and is what the saw flora says alpha P Shana Tova mortal Klum even though this doesn't help at all oil the who mistook an since this person is in danger he's hero Kadesh lot it's her F d'etat I love they permitted it so that he doesn't get panicked and of course panic and concern will make his sickness worse and the Rambam indeed says that there are many things that we allow there are certain we allow because a person who isn't a sight of danger for example I'll post him say let's say doctor comes into someone's hospital room a hospital where they keep below this are ascetic and there's a there's a there's a special light which you can just open the shutter on it you don't have to turn off he opens it and the patient says turn on the light turn of the light no it says I don't need it I can examine you I have sufficient light with what's here and the patient who is in Sakana in danger insists that the doctors turn on the light sir of no effort based on Sakura of summers Ullman says you're allowed to tell doctors later turn on the other light even though the doc doesn't need it why the issue of hadass meaning the calmness and the mental state of the patient is extremely important and the mental state of the patient could be a life-and-death issue and so consequently that's something to take into take into account as well so even though there are some of these old many of these alternative medicines are completely meaningless for me from a physical scientific perspective they're not actually doing anything you're drinking water which is wonderful water is very healthy for but as I actually going to cure you necessarily right it will cure you of dehydration guaranteed right but but again it's it's nevertheless might be okay like I said they talked because of the psychosomatic effect that's something to take into into account another point which i think is important too important to make is the following there are those who believe that if we can find let's say you've got an alternative medicine and they find some type of evidence for that for a belief in that in the Gomorrah in Casal so what automatically say therefore it must be okay right here if because I believed in X Y or Z and they said this is a cure and now I contemporary I put in huge quotation marks doctor says that this will work right and so so there is a tendency to believe well if I can find this some mention of it even however tenuous in hazael then maybe it should be okay so here I should point out a couple of things number one twice verse in Maya cotton says that refers to - us a nun toy voice semi-nice tunnel kumara for the Shasha in untie verse Miss Manners it places first of all points out that the that the reverse the medical advice and and cures mentioned in the Gomorrah are not effective nowadays so twice us and not sure which belt Isis wrote this is closest or so we talked about 13th century 13th century France was not effective then what's to make you think it should be effective today but if place was said that in his time was not effective look there a foursome because I'll not effective so so make it a see why would you think that now it is number one number two the go item is to say in the Otesaga a.m. as a trooper from of sri raghunatha organ writes the following was quite famous written annual a mammal a fine I have to tell you the following there are born on love a Susa in on the rebel on were not doctors Oh million barometer has enemies money on and from things that they observed in their times of the doctors in their times kahut cut cut Syrah Emunah they collected them together and they conveyed it to people which is quite responsible if a Roth tells you I robbed here's I heard doctor said that you should exercise and he tells us all to exercise is he is he is he doing the right thing of course right that is the medical opinion of the time he says beloved every Mitzvah in on when because I'll give you a medical a medical advice or a cure it slaughtered our Mitzvah he'll cough lotis Mahorn a lil on a sue so you should not rely on those medications so first of all we have a choice verse who says that the reform kazzal don't work in his times because of the idea of nature or people have changed cetera secondly we have the roof Sri God who maintains that when has old made a medical statement the material so says this that has all made a medical statement they were basing it on the medicine of their times they were not saying it as a Dermott sir and hence he says not to rely that third yum sauce Slimer in Hulan says quite and this is brought from the maha real Ruby keeper agar in eure daya and the youngster schleimann call him both say there's a theorem huh cut mine him a harem a ban of excommunication that dates back probably to the time of the Guinan not i'll put it how he puts it color a milano maha real color a force Sheva hala Talmud österlen ice ice ice um the cures in the Gomorrah it is prohibited to use them to try them masoom to a Netanyahu llama el e crumb because a person doesn't know the precise meaning as we don't know the quantities we don't necessarily know the meaning of what the substance is that they are talking about we don't necessarily know how to administer these things so because we don't have that clarity he says he Loyola be Adam if they use it and that doesn't work you are go via log legal algebra ha ha Meem they will make fun of and make light of the words of the ages and to quote the youngster labor he says there is a harem huh cut my name shameless moist orifice a Talmud there is a ban of excommunication not to rely on the refer on the healing medication of the Gomorrah Kaneesha la la haute solarz al ha ha Meem hakumen so we now have to take this to our situation - what does this say about alternative medicines so finding a source for an alternative therapy in kazzal is not really a good way of proving or of telling me that you should do that and you're allowed to do that right according to toys first nishitani whatever and they don't work anymore according to the guy named anyway was the medicine of the 6th century babylon which not necessarily is that medicine which which we would agree with today and cuz i would be responsible they were following the medicine at that time and he says they love us us on in who they're not doctors third we have the rebecca failure the office of Slimer the maha real who say there's a harem a ban on using these reformed Etha doll t in the life of rohan very famous safer on Halawa issues in medicine he summarizes him and he says i saw and become a see boys the necessary force the talmud it is prohibited for a number of reasons to try the cures in the Camorra he mentions that and he mentions all the above sources that that i pointed out so and it's it's eleazar eleazar hood of oldenburg who was great post akin israel he became one of the great experts in medical ethics one of the reasons was it's amazing how the the the role that look you know the real estate agents a location location location so he used to live in a neighborhood of yerushalayim just off recover for me of the old charade said sorry ascetic hospital is now in paid for gun but it used to be just ofra haza for the old sorry ascetic building right so so which is now I think a to television studio or something like that anyway right so so now now that now they're now they're causing sickness instead of healing anyway so so but the old show Senate building so really AC hood of oldenburg used to live near there and that a base mattress attached to the hospital there was a shoe in the hospital he used to go there I remember I used to I used to go occasionally and ask him Sylas in the shore attached to the old sorrow cynic when I was in Israel last century so I know it's hard to believe but anyway so so I used to go asking so what happened was doctors would come in here's a great tomahawk I'm sitting in a shawl in the hospital they're asking sailors see became he had this amazing amount of shamash from in real life from physicians in the hospital who would ask questions time after time after time so here he has produced thousands of of Chaves regarding regarding these issues of medical ethics etc and one of the things he points out again he also Huskins that reform school ice Tsuru Tsuru burt al mood he also mentions the toys first that they don't work today he mentions the matter real that you should not use them because of this I am and and he says also the from the cadmium from the that these are not necessarily considered to be did rate IRA they're saying even though there are those who say that even the statements of kazaar which they make in medical areas etc there is a previous to them the Mijares view is that there's a previous to them and you have to understand it according to the premise but but even if you accept what the morale says it that that still means that you cannot necessarily accept them as a medical as a medical cure and as a therapy because really Gazala just using those words to indicate some deeper inner meaning but not the actual medical statement that they appear to be they appear to be making so again i would also point out that there is such a thing as what is accepted and normal how do we how do we define for example his studless what's he establish he studless means making efforts making appropriate f so for example working a person who doesn't doesn't make any arrangements for income whatsoever and says I'll dozen so we know that that's called being soma colonies there's a famous ingress moisture who says that buying life insurance is normal he studless why because to imagine that a person's entire panacea will be replaced somehow I don't know how but it will be replaced somehow he says that's relying on an ace he says so person has to have some type I don't know the details of what I don't know anything about sure is there's a term life I don't know those mean but I know life means I just don't know the other stuff but but again some type of insurance person has to have just make sense he stubbles so how do you define your obligation of his status okay how far do you you have to go so there are different opinions about this but basically it depends a little bit on what's called nice and what's called over if the obligation of each Douglas is you should not rely on a miracle so therefore you got to define miracle so there are Bhandar of daesil says this the miracle is that which happens infrequently and TEVAR is what happens all the time so you define these things by what's normal what's regular so how do you define normal that's that's that's rough that's not so simple right when you you ask someone you know on the surfer off is he normal so you know is she normal like most people would probably say Yeah right who's going to say no they're completely abnormal so so it's hard to how to define that but but but what's accepted by people so for example in the medical field this I heard from good friend of mine about Cuba tats who'll say is a is a Tom Hoffman's also doctor and he has Robinho Schiff he also be offered the specific question he asks Robinho sure was about vaccinations and biosis said the few to vaccinate and so keep keep it tattoo asked him but is you know is that because you're putting other people at risk other children at risk etc because as you probably know there's no vaccine which is 100% there are some people who it doesn't work for us that means if the someone who's not vaccinated at all and is carrying some type of disease even a child who is vaccinated may contracted because it's not 100% effective there are also people who could not get vaccines for example a child has got a serious illness may not be able to vaccine so it means the other child who is not ill and didn't get a vaccine because of this misguided parents so there might he's putting that other child at risk so a key pass is that is that the idea from Russia that's part of it but it's not only that and there's what he said sort of it's not a word-for-word quote but it's very very close he says even if there is some danger in the vaccine that's since that's the norm it's an acceptable level of danger given the benefits of the vaccine now has given the benefits both for the individual and for the public of this activity so even if we would say that there are some risks which is not at all clear but but let's say right there are risks even so right that will be acceptable so for example that some say the Rambam seems to imply that's one of the reasons that the Royer needs resuce the rabbi's why does the doctor need permission so so some would say because if i kind of spoil who made the person sick who weiner he'll the RAB mom says that doesn't make sense Rama says Imperial in size him sock him is doesn't make sense he's as a person that says that I would ask them the following question right or ask them do you eat what they say of course they say white he says if Hashem wants you to die of hunger it won't help you to eat and if he doesn't want you to die of hungry don't need to eat so it's a great argument for not eating right is that a good argument what's wrong with that argument you go to the mechanic and the mechanic says your brakes your brake pads are at 1% and I say so he says well what do you mean so you crazy to drive with brake pads at 1% it's in your insight you won't be able to stop so what do you argue you say you sir are trying to rip me off if I could as bar Hall wants the once there to be an accident there'll be an accident you've got good brakes if he doesn't want there to be an accident even if you don't have sorry if he wants there to be an accident even if you got brakes there'll be an accident if he doesn't want there to be an accident you don't need brakes what's wrong with that reasoning it sounds on the surface like but obviously we all get our brakes fixed hopefully we all eat hopefully right I'm assuming right all right we drink etc and we go so the rad mom says because how comes boy who's decree is not this will happen no matter what and this will have no matter what his decree his Gazzara is this will happen if you do X Y or Z this will happen if you do a B or C in other words I've got a boy who's Gazzara it incorporates the fact that he's given us for fear of free will and responsibility and he expects us to do certain things so comes Boggs area is not black and white this will happen no matter what this person does this weapon no matter what that person stop doesn't work like that because brother says this will happen if this person doesn't act responsibly well this will happen if the person does so it's conditional on human action and therefore you don't really need the resource to tell me that before is okay that's the view of the Rama so why do you why does the doctor need permission so here the RAM mum says and he was a physician he says because a lot of Medicine causes negative side effects it can cause you pain no question right there are certain thing you get a refer that might be painful you take something for your headache and it messes up your stomach you take something for your stomach and you can't sleep however this is always side effects so how is the doctor later hurt you you know what the hell you need nourish us Laroy fairly replace there's a permission being given there's a certain acceptable amount of pain and an acceptable amount of risk because the benefit is great the end goal is wonderful the end goal is great I'll give you an extreme case of this extreme cases this is a mission avoid a surah and this has a ramification regarding experimental treatments miss Leveaux desire says you're not allowed to go to a doctor who is an event avoid Azara now gotta be careful with terminology here we're specific we're not talking about a just a any non Jew we don't matter doctor who's a dedicated pagan yeah I mean we don't have a lot of them around we don't have a lot of them right and of course the famously choiceless and beginning of what is our own in Belarus and the Ramar says that the average non-jews among whom we dwell whether they be Christians or Muslims Muslims certainly not their voters are or there may be other reasons to be wary but and Christians also we don't consider them generally to the oath they avodah Zarah but if you had a doctor who's a genuine pagan right who's so in those days he'll be just as like you to kill you as heal you you know if for whatever reason it was certain time of the month or the time today or he needed you know a beard and the Jew walks in he might be saying to yourself Oh excellent looking for a Korriban and here he is right so the Mishna says whoa reporter for choice you're not allowed to go to such a doctor if you're in danger of your life why well clearly because he might kill you but then it's interesting the Gomorra says the following if however the person is definitely going to die if he doesn't go to this doctor knows if he doesn't do anything he'll definitely he'll only have a very short time and he will and he'll die very quickly so he's allowed to go to such a doctor what's the logic Lamar says hey a shawl or Kushina we don't worry about the short pier in light in other words like this I guess it's like game theory if he doesn't go to any doctor if it doesn't know to the doctor at all he will die within a few months if he goes to this doctor the doctor if he if if circumstances are such then he's decided he'll heal you he may be able to cure you you'll live a normal lifespan or he may kill the guy straight off in other words what's the risk the risk is six months let's say of life what's the gate what's the possible gain fifty years a normal lifespan so the Gomora says you're allowed to go to a doctor under those circumstances choices asks how could you tell me we don't worry about a few months of life Harry Liholiho if a person is Custer shot and buried under a building earthquake like they had yes yesterday in in Italy southern Italy where I was last week right so that an earthquake there so someone's buried under a building so it's Shabbos you're out you're allowed so obviously you're allowed to uncover them it's pasta you're allowed to uncover them whatever you need to do to save their life what if we uncover them and the the the the physician on site says this guy is this guy who sees the guys buried he's not gonna live for more than a few hours he's not going to live for more than a few minutes what's the halacha are you allowed to uncover him you're correct you are you are believed to uncover him even if you'll only for a short time the materi says because maybe in the few moments hill-hill hill-hill dude sugar in which case he'll gain Olam haba the mr. Breuer bureau halacha says the materi is only saying that to make it easier for you to understand but he says the truth is even if the guy won't even regain consciousness and he won't do true ver and he went to any mitzvahs and he'll just be alive for a few minutes you still McCoy if you're still obligated to uncover him to save his life that's very interesting so twice VA's asks so here we see in Hilda Shabbos hey I saw meaning a short life span we are indeed quite worried about it and we will transgress mahalo Shabbos to save a guy even for a short unconscious lifespan and yet here in terms of going to the non to the pagan physician who's likely kill us here you we save if the person's only got you know a few months to live he can do this so twice his answers just I'll quote his language because very he says he says haha the hussam of dinner Latif also we always do it for the good of the patient in other words if the good of the patient will be served by ignoring Kaisha or the few months because he may get the long normal lifespan we'll ignore it if the good of the patient will be insured by not ignoring the short lifespan ie digging him out of the building on Shabbos then we don't ignore then we don't ignore it so plus it says it's always we do it for the good so I want to point it in here by the way this missionary is brought as an evidence that sometimes if a person is only likely to live a short time and there's an experimental treatment which will either cure him and give him a normal lifespan or kill him he's allowed to take that experimental treatment according to this mission though that's safe because hey I saw the short lives we don't so what we see is there's a certain amount of risk that a person is allowed to take upon themselves in the case and this is an extreme case I'm just bringing is an extreme case there's a certain risk is allowed to take Robin Yosef seemed to be saying the way I you know averted from acute at that that the small risk is is not only allowed to be taken but it's obligatory because of the great benefits in the the end the end result so we sometimes ignore the risk because and that's what that's the idea of knitting there a shuttle rifle wrappers yeah sure the doctor could make a mistake and sure the doctor could cause you pain and sure the doctor and there might be side effects but that's an acceptable risk factor for the ultimate goal of of being healed now one more point I'm not automatically saying that that all modern meant that that doctors are all-knowing omnipotent omniscient etc what I am saying however is the following that that we've had a lot of success in terms of modern medicine life spans have increased tremendously over the past couple of hundred years the ideas of Hygiene the idea of washing hands the idea of keeping clean has eradicated and reduced a lot of major diseases we have been able to when I say we don't mean you know have nothing to do with medicine whatsoever aside from taking the occasion right but I mean but but the humanity because of the saiful that I caught a spa who gave us because of the gift of gas that our Shem gave humanity we've been able to do tremendous tremendous things we can a person a person who young and we know this in he'll destroy us just for example the the cousin is points out that there are there are traits which people would have died from a hundred years ago which now doctors do to people in order to cure them right a whole in certain organs will make someone trace and yet that considered to be a necessary part of certain operations so so it's like readers it's amazing thing so so there are cures for so many things so so I think we have reason to believe and miss ion and he guy on as the ROM mom says logic and he guy on that that the standard medicine is is effective am I saying it's the oh it's it's the be-all and end-all no there certainly could be therapies that we don't know about yet but the only difference is one's been proven one hasn't one has been tested one hasn't once something gets tested and shown to make sense Alpina stay on even if I don't necessarily the standard or I understand it even though there's nothing to say on it then it could be that's now just regular medicine so so I think we have to be careful on the one hand as the rush bar says know flayed us for ms we are the children of Yakov SMS etc and not to be taken in by claims and testimonials and and and something is ancient something is from the east something from the east doesn't make it okay necessarily a lot of negative things from the east as well like fish sauce right so so the fact that something is from the east or ancient or this testimonial doesn't necessarily mean that we should follow it and I think we should follow the advice of the rasp or Akira ARCA fakira the advice of the Rambam that we have to have both he guy on and this I on and what the softener ourselves which is not advice Tatsuya halakhah that person should not be AIESEC in this unless he is baki the lawyer a sham Godalming anew and the kiyose is is testable it is all right someone who's gone to four years of pre-med and that's rough not easy I know this not because I've been to pre-med but because I have students who are in pre-med they're they're in stress for four years right which which medically speaking is not great for them but okay they'll be doctors okay but but whatever but but and then goes to medical school and then does rounds in hospitals and learns from a resident and takes and and participates in in trials and so on and so forth that is that's because that impresses me more than someone who goes to a three month course in Singapore seemed was a great place but it's not right or someone who reads a book about something and now is going to cure you very very dangerous stuff my just then Mike my brother-in-law lives in Australia he's a oncologist and neurologists he does a lot neurologic on college he had a patient who was responding to treatment for a while and then the patient started showing some really strange signs turns out he was being poisoned he was been poisoned wasn't by his wife or anything no he was being poisoned by a alternative therapists who was giving him I forgot it was apricot pits maybe which having them what cyanide he was getting cyanide poisoning because he believed that since it was apricot pits are natural and the therapy he was getting for my brother was not natural so he was okay so he's naturally having cyanide and the unnatural drugs that he was getting from my from from the doctor right we're actually helping him but he ended up unfortunately I think he passed away but it was basically sign of wood so we have to be really so it's a psychoneurosis something to be Marc Maron and secondly a lot of these alternative therapies some of them at least have their sources back in Dachau Emory and in our voices are a hooker st. Louis layer and these are areas in which we have to be extremely careful because Claudius roll-call a miter bar voters are coif of a collet or a coup as I as I pointed out before we called you who him because he you who Diaz miter the collet Arcola and that is involves being coy eval vadas aura and that's a little bit traduction to the topic it's a lengthy topic I mean I'm not really qualified to speak about about the medical aspects of it and just speaking about barely qualified to speak about the halawet aspects but I'm presenting macorís to you and hopefully you'll take them and tailor I'm bf come on give it to a wise person they'll become even wiser thank you for listening and we'll have a Shanah Tovah Masuka I'll take some questions yes what about pigs is a good question that's that's the interesting one for those who are not familiar with pigeons pigeons are birds but in Israel there's a thing people have hepatitis so they take a pigeon and they put it on the navel of the patient and the pigeon dies like now I had hepatitis in Israel when I was when I was a Baccarin you shiver is 1970 not 80 I think it was so much so I go to a doctor might my roommate said let's do the pigeons so what we did was we brought we had a pigeon guy and I had guys that we have photographic evidence of it we had them photographing it and we had guys with stopped Watchers to chime time the the death of the of the pigeons I took a billy Reuben test before and I could build a Reuben test afterwards I can't say this was absolute scientific experiment but it was pretty close it made no effect on my bilirubin whatsoever zero right and and and they died they seem to all take the same amount of time to die on the other hand at the site that same year another friend who's in hospital right with hepatitis they did the pigeons and he and he was cured it's again this is anecdotal evidence it's very difficult to define and very you know it's it's not because I'll write it is old but I again said old doesn't mean as crits correct and people people do it I don't think there's an Easter involved in this right sar Bell is saying the pain we know that some other claim to cause pain to an animal if it's for the benefit of a human is okay so there's no Easter in that Balthus Chris it's not wanton destruction because you're doing it for a purpose I don't think it has origins in Arvada Zara or I can't say for sure but I don't think so it's probably at best darker hey Murray which means would be okay if it actually shows miss a on if experience shows that it works oh I don't think it's a sir I don't know if it's effective but I don't think it's awesome and so that's as far as the the pigeons go yeah that's correct that's why I mentioned that as I as one of the spectrum of alternative there's a whole spectrum of that well again okay alright let me okay let me just repeat the first question so if the question was but it pointed out that that nutrition has changed the acceptance of nutrition as being a therapy has changed over the years and I don't disagree with that of course as I mentioned medicine has changed over the years and will probably continue to change and I have no you know III don't think it's not carved in stone and if we have experimental evidence that something works we accept it in the same way that nutrition has been accepted as a as a normal part of modern medicine even though as you pointed out correctly it wasn't at one time so fine that's because logically we know it works now number one and number two we have experimental evidence which fits into the criteria is the Rambam without a problem when it comes to magnets again the magnets you buy in the dollar store on the Amazon etc those are completely ineffective I don't know if the magnets you are talking about a different madness or there may be much more powerful if again I have no objection to it what I get to is that the ones that you'll buy in the back of magazine the ones that will so I don't think that they are anything right but and I don't think the FDA has said that putting a magnet on your wrist will cure your arthritis I don't think they've said that the the little normal actually used to stick things on your notice board are going to be effective I assume it's this very specific type of magnet and I assume it's very specific type of issue again doesn't mean Savoy Hazara right and it doesn't mean it's not dark anymore medicine the only difference between what some people call Western medicine or modern medicine and alternative therapies is one there's experimental evidence that seems to work that shows what works the other doesn't right so no I agreed sometimes it's only with time some things even over time I don't think we will work occur for example there are tribes that I'm familiar if that will point the bone at people that will it's I don't think over time we're going to accumulate experimental evidence that pointing a bone that someone's going to cure them of cancer I don't think so right maybe I'm wrong right it could be up in rock I was wrong in 1983 once but but it could be wrong but but again there are certain things it's not only with time some things with time will be shown to be effective like nutrition there are some things I really am skeptical that with time they'll become accepted right and as I said there's a spectrum of these things but we have to be really careful because there are certain things which are straight out of our vadas aura certain things which are not afforded Zara but they are certainly dark hey honey Marie and if they haven't yet been substantiated they have not yet got the experimental evidence and they don't make sense according to our simple logic of the current state of science then I think there is reason to be mark Mir and there is reason to be skeptical and I think that's healthy skepticism which is a good point like I said the fact that something is ancient or authentic or natural doesn't mean a thing Oh interesting I yeah they look there are many poisons we've discussed these things and and have come to that conclusion that a lot of these things have their origins never Ozora and again again like I pointed out that's one area we want to be masculine that's that's Eurasian I'm Alaska's aura and secondly as pointed out merely finding a trace for this in Casals not sufficient for the various reasons I mentioned from the guy named my real youngsil swimmer in the twice vez and that's not enough to justify it but it's an interesting no revert that a cost of trauma lycra bloomer pants has mentioned that i wasn't familiar with it but that's good to know okay i think we'll i think that's it for now and I just want to was a you have to also take account as Mark Twain once pointed out a cold if it's not treated we'll go after seven days if you treat it it will go after a week doctors say the same thing about ear infections nowadays yeah okay yeah it's a car shame me again shoot Aramis is busting if you're being searched after Rebecca for the very informative Russia I would like to have the great schools of joining English or Italian our buses attire work throughout the summer throughout the year worldwide calling she retire seven one eight eight five one eight six five one send the email tape Center at yeshiva net.com or I can meet you in the back table and with your credit card and we can swipe it through the machine or you can if you're watching for the live stream you can click on the donate box on the left side your circle everyone for coming with a 90-minute kashimoto socket as both will exact a says they saw the figure Hitler I'm Tyra magician hermanos Officer months ago Yakult Ariana [Music]