Tracing the Early Origins of Saying L'Dovid during the months of Elul and Tishrei (Part 2)

due to technical difficulties Audio Only will be available and there won't be any video [Music] welcome back Rabbi Dr Eleazar brat we are here for part two of discussing the early origins of saying the David Hashem during these times during ELO sorry Dominic to save most of actually until and we left off discussing that perhaps a source for saying the Lil David came from and that's the reason why people may stay away from saying it so let us pick up from right over there okay so basically we um after we discussed the early Origins we we basically moved into um certain hasidim specifically their meaning is not to say it so the Candace yamam which is published we we we're pretty sure it's published from 1731 the first time although we don't know the author so last time I read a letter that was printed in the in the 1920s from leaves which listed out um various cases such as um the rupture and others that would not say it and the reason given was because it's so at the time last time around I mentioned that when that that if one looks carefully into the heavens we will see that it does not say that now before we go back to seeing what it was saying more recently is achuva from ramaysha halberstan also has a trooper where he discusses about the minutes on the road is safer about Hill because Rosh Hashanah and I guess they got into discussion somehow about it and he when my childhood brings down this leaves of not to say it and someone must have brought his attention that this there's an article written in a safer I believe yeah from a um cats this robark cats his article is one of the most is one of the best articles on the sugary wrote a pre-order days so he had to do a lot of work um a lot of people take from him some are kind enough to give him credit but many do not and he made a lot of the interesting discoveries about the David but of course there's a lot to add over time because there's a lot of nuances and a lot of other details which we know as time goes on that's just the way it works but so someone brought this article two where he saw it himself it could be he knew him um bottom line is that he says in Hanami you could say that it's clear ashamed of cotton talks about this many and Jane the cartoon is before but says says but who was where did this meaning to say but sieber come from so he says that's the hamdas yamam and therefore even though you could point to saying is in the shamed of Katan but the saying a bit sieber that's not from the saint of Captain okay now that is what ramesha halberstam says now before anything um I would like to Sidetrack for two three minutes and then we'll get back to um discussing what ramayana said more and more about monogam of there's a spouse even let's say it does say information let's say it says this is the meaning and maybe even if let's say even if we would go with the worst case scenario is the actual source what is such a big deal to say it if said it so so um so that that is a this is a tough question and I do not plan on trying to answer this by Ricos today maybe a different time maybe a few times who knows but um while going through this I came across certain things so it reminded me and that's why I chose to just mention them right now and it will give us a little bit more light into this topic overall we mentioned last time already it was accused already by Rebecca vemdin um maybe he was the first person even that that noticed or claimed that there's problems that must be has connections to shop says so again I'm not getting into all the details what the accusations were a lot A lot has been written about it through I mean a crazy amount has been written about it until today and I quoted last time around the story with retrie deblitzki or Trey the blitzki a great a big tremendous macabull and a pisc who would go through it um every yantiff and he wrote use it he used it all the time in his farm but anyway let's go um someone more closer to that time period amongst other things that he did that we have from him is we have his stuff that he did throughout the year swarm that he learned and various and hagas that he did he kept records for many years of what he did not only did he keep a record of his travels and his dreams and other types of things these are like sort of order by graphical types of information some of this has been the the travels has recently been discussed on an episode on um Farm chatter with Maisha meinman and Mahi Weinstein where they discussed the various new editions of the Travis but also there's also the he denotes that he kept a listing what he did each year interestingly enough we mentioned numerous times has the famous work called Shane McDonald and if you look in the shame again there's no entry of the Khan so did he know about the work um we're talking about someone that knew more about this Farm than anyone that whole Century probably and there is he definitely did and in this work we see that every year he would go through the work so you'll say maybe he didn't know anything about chapter and the Kabbalah and all the problems and all the problematic people we know from going through his stuff he knew all about it he knew everything about this um he was a big expert in this tablet now so we see here a person who was well aware of the problematic parts of the khamis and of these kabbalahs and person that was expert in in understand and locating things and he still had no problem and he would go through it before them but I came across to to go show you how far this even goes is like this later on today Emirates Hashem I hope to get up to a very very fascinating year this name was repentance and we'll see he had to do it tonight and he left behind a very interesting autobiography which we'll discuss soon but amongst other things is he there's a lot of manuscripts of his still exist today in Oxford so the in his autobiography discusses different people he met interesting people and one of the things he says is he talks about a certain safer that was in his possession now to just backtrack into this tangent this is the last tangent in the tangent of this tangent it's his fouls there's a fascinating autobiography besides the Asian also from the same time period called the libous brief of Isaac wetzler this was written in Yiddish and it was translated into English by Mars five anyway he talks about that there was some kabbalistic work in his time um we're talking we're talking in the 1750s and basically it had us it had us Commerce and he said I know that this work is very problematic and he and he points even to a few pages in this work it says look on page this 13 39 a39b and it's clear from this that this person believes in shop States V that he's the mashiach and we're talking about many years after shop say he's dead so um so how could people even give him as commas and right to safer is khashif okay now he says I'm not going to tell he says in his autobiography I'm not going to tell you who this work is but it is such a work and the footnote over there does not um write who it is but it's obvious that it's this work that we're talking about if you look up the pages that he refers he gives you exact Pages you look up that Edition you could see that it's this work okay now and I have not seen any one point to um have point to that um that that's what he's referring to but now with that introduction so this back to Apprentice cats in Elmo you manage the same to goofy says I was a Rob in a certain city and a book came to my possession called are you strong um who discovered this manuscript that I'm referring to now of the aishman healing this piece was Professor Morris kahano and he printed it in in his book I'm sorry for then behuda because while he's because this Rippin because he deals with it in his book so he brings this piece and basically he's like this I um I saw that this scriber called our Israel and I realize this man is a great kabbalist I learned wonderful ideas from his book which I study every day every day however when it came to realize from his words I was a believer in chapter I realized it's a Mitzvah to stay away from the safer and I realized um he says but then I said why should I stop reading this book it has good good in Kabbalah and it explains certain so what what's going on so even though he made a tremendous mistake and he believes in chapter but maybe I still look at him and he ends up saying just as Romeo learned from that he learned we know he was he took from the upsideless so he said I was confused what to do so I made up I would not read it on a permanent basis I would read it only occasionally okay so so um that's what this um replica now we know also that in most kind of located he had that this repentance gets known Button had even worse so to speak materials of people related to shopping not only did he know people related to shop 6V he had these materials but he wrote on in his manuscripts of material that he had from them that they're he that he's pointing this at so so what we see from here and from the especially who learned to save her that even if taka was from shops like related to shopping it's problematic that there is such a concept that one can learn from just like we're mayor now this is obviously a very big and it plays out many times even in very recent years last year played in this past year it even played out um in current events and a lot to discuss of that but this is not my place I'm just reading one passage just as it relates to us over here okay now so so so to to get back to our studio so even if it is there even Dominic is there we see Le Marshall learned it and I say um and and okay thought palamisa when one looks inside and not everyone had it we don't um even though is not interested so long ago but a few years ago was much more hard to get safer um today you have Hebrew Books if it's a Hackman two seconds you can look it up technically if you know where to find it so we already said last time that if you look carefully inside it it's clear it's not the minute of of ours um he just talks about that he had a minute that he himself had a minute to say the capital of capital of Zion when relating it to the tying it to the Slickers nothing to do with the mimic that we have which is from the beginning of Hell twice a day um till um as we said in the shenth of cotton was even including which then we said we traced already till it gets into the halach farm it's not the same meaning there is one similarity over here which is that he talks about it Hashem comes up your game of times in this capital and that we said is much more it's not it's two different things and it's not our many okay um now we'll return back to rameshavesham in a moment but um this was one such World okay fine now um there are other um there are other in the hasidisha world to explain why not to say ladavid and that could be found in a chuva of the closenberg okay so the klezenberger rabba who was not only known for being um a great rapper is also known for uh being a tremendous wrote numerous forum so he talks about this and he brings down um he says that something that's not in the or the savim referring to the Ariza we don't say it doesn't make a difference that's it and and it doesn't make a difference anything else that you say whatever else you'll say to add to it shamed of cut on this whatever safer it is it's not so so here you see that the minute Sands according to at least the the kleisenberg is it's not about Yama anymore it's more about we don't say things are not my first and or in favor sharizao so um that's an interesting take and then the claiserov goes in in this Chua he talks about this other things we should have a cavana about more important davening um um you should maybe longer more making your business to have cavana and others more which is a problem we're not it says if you want to say the capital okay but say they're saying it but but to make it that everyone should say it that that's more what bothers seems to bother the closenberger rav in this in this studio now just to show is that not only um that's what the cleasenberger rough says so in recent years for um I have a Shalom has printed um lack of a little printed the letters between the banished many over the years and they collected them in a volume it's called mixtamilio and over there basically the question was asked of rebellion what's the minig in based L the couple Yeshiva of saying Ludovic so um he said that people that yeah there's there are macyrus to say it but he said but us in Yeshiva Patel which is a had all different we don't say it why not but but there is he says that they say it the whole year so you could say it the whole year but in Elwood after to say it so we see there's something similar this is on some level this is a little similar to the kleisenberg who's explaining that what the reason behind the hasidim not to say okay that's an interesting um some of you may have noticed that I brought in my picture of the closest Mega Reba for this episode I knew this was coming and although I may not look like a full-blown question but both sides from both sides you know we have the connection I might have mentioned that the was my sandic but I guess when I say it I guess when I say it in shul where I dab in maybe I'm saying it as a yuck and that is a SeaWorld so I could be here to the Sansa Rosso I don't know either way but remote was a was a sensor so I guess part of this is why I didn't say it just an anecdote anecdotally when I was learning narrative straw I had this close to Daven once in his shoe he had a small shul together with his brother one of those streets in angula and he has a safer Terrier from Madrid Khan their small little secretary which I had this close of getting in alia in okay back to schedule programming okay so so now what's interesting is last time I mentioned that there are certain early there are a bunch of early real early sources that that seem to be that they said and we mentioned at that time we mentioned last time that flow we said the city of chapsy we said the balotanya ads Marshall is to say it so now as as the world we always have as I've mentioned many times there's always new discoveries new manuscripts so there's been a discovery of uh in the world of hasidus but again above my pay grade but um a whole keyboard relating to the terror of the magnumi message so this hebor has material Josh's New pieces something like 150 New pieces that were never printed before and we have in a piece stated that it was set in El 19 in 1772. and it's for L material um different pieces over here and one of the pieces is he's explaining two points so it's clear why in the world is he talking about this the answer is I would say enough especially after we see that flaw and we'll just sit there of chapsy it wasn't accepted meaning in the casino in the early world at least to say it um during L and uh tissue okay now but back to ramesha halberstam Ramesh alberstam even though he's a as we just mentioned a sanser he throws in the village and and the Villa going this is where suddenly you'll find people that don't say love it I'm agronic just like they say that people become a kind Berliner regarding slichus so people become agronic Philadelphia okay now so the question is what is the gra hold about this I just saw an article I believe written by David Haber from Baltimore who's a calendar expert no other way to put it and he mentioned their Italian I believe I'm recording it correctly they only say once a day and only told Yom Kipper every Kipper that was also interesting I never heard of before right right so the so the ground very very interesting with the ground the grub so everyone knows the grout doesn't say it okay so the question is why the garage doesn't say it so without getting into all the reasons if it's bura adding in something new it could be similar to the what the what the um the kleisberg brought down things are natural or work seven but that's not necessarily the concern for the gra but some point okay with the hand that's but we already said Rod um so first of all last time I mentioned the girl doesn't have any problems with hands young anyway but even if you even if that's the truth um so what's the reason what what is the so what's the meaning of the growth so you open up your mice arav a few times it goes out of its way and it says um at the end of davening don't add anything and then he says RAV that the grass said not to say it so now I have a theory which is just a theory there's no way to prove such a thing is that the gra might not have ever heard of the minig of saying the David and he's not saying anything about Pro or against Dominic and you can't learn anything into the what do I mean to say so the we have the safer myself and agav it's very interesting who's the person that made the mice arrive put it into the world of Allah the most is clearly the mission of Brewer and writing the first episode we quoted the mission rule right away in the brings from the matter frame of saying it and Allah so in punt over here he doesn't bring the stam interesting but the gra in in the in 17 in 1790s let's say the mimic was not so widespread as we showed if you look into Durham there's no this comatose that even has it so the grub wouldn't have had to make such a big deal because what the saint of cotton and a few of them he's going to make all big Asic about it and not to say it and whatever so I think is what happens like this leader up if you ask did the grass say it the answer is the grub didn't say so now when someone's talking about Dominic of the gra that the grass said you would say the um he didn't say it so in eight but when the mice arrive is actually published which is in the 1830s then it was ready a much more widespread even in Vilma that people said it we could see clearly from sudurem at that time so then they said by the way you want to know what the meaning of was he didn't say it but not that The Grudge said oh they brought him ashamed of cotton or the Shire malachor the whole mclearus and he said you shouldn't say it for whatever reason it's not that he was had any problems so to speak with Hashem interestingly enough his son remember um had the same to cut and use it and doesn't say anything bad about the safer or anything like that he should but but he was he was familiar with Hashem I mean to say anyway okay now Lamesa there are there's a what's even a drop more interesting is there's two there's two more cool this with this which one will lead us to the to the next part but the first nucleus is like this son the son of the ground I just quoted he has a perish on Tehama so without getting into the whole discussion of this Parish um but part of the perish he brings down Mahal comes from his father so on this Capital he has three Mahal come to explain this um to explain this Capital one of them is based on the safer in the future and one of them is from his father a beautiful Mahala which is using Kabbalah all types of growth type of stuff Kabul and and Remus I'm seeing different things what and in the gra the gross seeing in this Capital sees the yamdarama with different nakudas that were not um at least said by the various partial name that we have on this Capital films I found it very interesting so let me say that does know or even as mafarish on some level this cup people tell them that has something to do with these with yamneramus maybe not El but for sure to look at that Parish to see how but now this gets to the next nakuta which is that sometimes when you talk to people about L and or you hear people talking about the makairs they right away say of course there's an early Makar what's the early Makar a madrish state and madrish over here um it's not important which measures but it's found in a bunch of madrasium URI is Russia is referring to Russia is referring to Yom Kippur so now the question is but what about L what we're saying okay well maisa but we're sukis salamisa if you look in the capital does say the word so it's more open okay so so interestingly enough this brings us to our next that when people say that there's a madrish that has some of these things that's not a Makar that the it's not the kavana is not isn't it's a mistake people think that's from a card to say it um or an L that's not true The Matrix does not say that anywhere if you learn the man just doesn't say that you want to know is some sukum in this madrish according to this magic is it being a fire there it's being miramus that's true so does the Quran also does that and you can find that with any Capital tone what do I what am I getting at so the Marshall is a very cautious he goes this by Ricos over here in this particular topic of el of as I said the minute Chabad is that they say um David and he says but it's when you're talking about this madrish first of all he points out um who bring who brings who who's the earliest source that shells through this madrish remember golis tremendous Bucky even in madrasium so in his Ella flamata on his Mata frying that we spoke about last time he throws Us in now he adds in weird sukis so he throws in something but that doesn't say in the magic so so already points this and he says must be he had another measures but it's clear he didn't have another mejush um he just was saying it now but but his problem is um and this he says and he's being a very very good question which is in in Tanakh we find I'll read islation like this is you could find and we know that there are many people you learn you learn enough you there's a lot of silken into Hillen that relate to rosh hashanian Kipper so we're going to put all them and start saying them twice a day you don't do such a thing anyway he has a he has a very good on this topic and um and he points this out someone else I was once talking to someone a long time ago a few years ago actually a rather um a RAV and he was saying something he was trying to explain he was about to give a sheer to explain if you learn a p the mafarsham um um you can see what the connection between the capital tillum and now it's like Manny rabannon do today all over it says but I'm um but he said he said and I quote any Paragon tillum pick could then could have you could find some type of connection and but he said maybe even if I'm not being a cynic this is his lotion um let's say five surface so each passer contains Infinity an infinite chapter and applies to any Slice of Life like we're building a person from any cell from his body so basically it could be there's all different ways how to do it but anyway bottom line is that um all these things are not they're way above my uh as I say pay grade I'm not coming to say anything but this is what some of the some of the nakudas of some why some of the people didn't want to say it um and the point is that what the in this last in this last nakud over here that I'm trying to emphasize is even when you find the measures the magic is not the McCart to say it daily that's strictly ashamed of cotton and will the people that say to say like that okay now so this is um some of the this is going to this is we're explaining um now the question is are there any other defenses for hasidim or did say any other reasons why they don't say the David in L okay so in last episode you mentioned that a listener sent in to you um has a lecture on the tablet so a bunch of years ago Professor Lyman gave a beautiful lecture on the origins of ludovid and he quoted this story which I'm about to say and um and he and but after he just said over the story and I'm gonna you'll see what I'm gonna do with the story after uh is his spouse as we said there's certain hasidim and we're back to the same I don't I did not make a list and I have actually not seen a complete list what each Casitas does and I'm sure eventually someone will write such a list but we might see them don't say it thought so the story goes as follows um Professor Lyman referred to a safer Nazar kadish which has a hug him of ruptcyts and in there is a following story which was said over um that the hashiva form the Bloon came to a Sansa base malish and he asked why is it that Sans they don't say ludavid but it seems in shinov they do say they do say ludava and he didn't wait for their answer and he says I'm going to tell you a story and he says and he tells them the following story and he says based on this this is the answer to the question important uh let the audience know shouldn't have is also from Sans right correct correct but I don't know much about this I have to it's now it was a yield Rebellion and there was xera it seems the ruler in the city we don't have all the details of the story this I'm saying over the story as it's it's brought down in the safer news this ruler didn't have kids so he wanted the yuden to Daven for for him to have a kid and he said but if you don't and then I don't have kids I'm throwing you out so they came to Rebellion about Hashem and he said give us 12 months so I have a kid and lamisa it seems that he had a kid and they weren't thrown out he said that about shemtov said over this story to tell me them he said don't think that he got away they're ability of Hashem just made this my face and it got away easy he got some type of punishment yeah why would he get such a punishment he's helping Chloe Israel as I said there's a famous thing a litvak when he says over he asks too many questions so would say it over in the hasidisha mode right now fragments can cautious of a mice the kids are it says like this so um bashanto said they it seems that they wanted to punish him he's going to lose his net fishes did it for cloud Israel for this city so he so thought so what did they do two takanas that he was masakin they were movato which is kigavna and saying so comes out from this maisa that who's the person who's the earliest Makar to saying ludovan is rebellion about Shem and who's and not only that we got another tidbit kagavna this is a hasida shaminig and yes um which is also a discussion wisdom of cars so here we have a Makar from this story that um we're looking at comes from it's also from this Rebellion sorry now but going on he says says uh that the conclusion of the story says it's known that the Rebellion okay that's how he ends his story fine now the question is in the story is is there any way to check out who is this balchem this Rebellion okay so Professor Lyman just said over the story he did not go what I'm saying now is not Professor Lyman this is my own addition to what Professor Lyman said the answer is like this there are two and not only what does it means it means that were known asham one was rebellion of helm and we know he dies in 1583 many many years later um some of his Kabbalah matheus which we're going to get to later on today is printed in various virum such as the mithili Kim and a safer called taldesado this particular rebellion of Hashem is very famous because he created what do you mean everyone knows the morale community so we're going with the Assumption the morale did not create a Golem don't ask me why but he didn't as far as we know there's no evidence sorry to be more exact maybe he did but the evidence that's been brought up till now does not prove at all that he created this is actually going up here the maskana of Professor malignant now he's the paise now but according to everyone who did create a Golem Rebellion how do we know this his grandson records this records this from his father and we know and that's how we know that he created so he was a macabul and he was a person that he wasn't stamina couple we see him being Isaac this story could fit with him it's very possible so according to this the minute of the David would be in 1580 would could go back further than 1583. okay that's my car number that's Rebellion that's one Rebellion but like to confuse everything so there's not in in in the Yeshiva World there's always but in history there's always two people so the two people are is rebellious the second Rebellion he's a grandson of Joseph rosenheim and he was also an expert in Kabbalah maisius when does he die 1636 he's a talmud of the moral me Prague interestingly enough um alignment has an additional article about if a talmud of the morality Pride created them because what happened is people said that Tomlin around me Pride Creator what happened is they got mixed up between daily about shenz the Ellie about sham the first one we was talking about who did create a goal was not a tolerant of them are wrong he's a talmud of who the martial he's earlier with the Rebellion about Shem that is the time of the morale did not as far as we know did not create a gun but he was definitely a brigma couple there's a lot of information about him it's been collected by um Justice Juan maramakam avram Epstein a bunch of years ago um wrote a whole collected a lot of beautiful information about this great rebelio Lunds now this Rebellion he had the fever of the the Rama and zayar which in recent years some of it has come out it's his own fascinating schmooze aquaponim there's two revaluable Shams so comes out according to both is either it's 1636 he dies or 15 30 1583 so we're getting the David backwards because we're getting at least further back because we we're going with the mascara that Ludovic is 1706 from ashamed of cotton announcements okay now over here we have a point to add and that that is in the last episode we mentioned we discussed about a Hebrew called Shiri halavia that's printed possibly in the sixth in in these years and we would think that he would know if it's if the story is about rebellious he would know about it and the whole point of his safer as we explained by richus was to collect all the people that got hit the all the capital Town back all over the year and he doesn't mention it um okay maybe he didn't know the story as I said you can't ask conscious of a maiso this is you have to be macabo this is the story The hasida shimaisa behind it now it could be we could say two we could say we could have all types of of we could say that maybe the story is true but it's a different balchem because there was but maybe and and each one and that will get it closer to 1706 than we would gain that it's not a casual Levine didn't know her because it's after Sierra levim's time but it's closer but maybe you could say that it was about Shem and it wasn't it was ashamed of cotton and and and this is going to get to what we're going to discuss um we're going to discuss right now which is what am I I can't I keep on saying this there's a value about sharing there's two Rebellion this is what's going on here about Shem what is about Shem even mean so so um that that's what I want to uh get to okay so I'm assuming that if it's Rabbi talking about about Sam he'll find the literature about Sam because I see this about Sam is something that he's told us already half him to really understand um so this is well sham he's the one you want to talk about now yeah I'm going to talk about him and the whole the whole concept about it that's that's what we're going to talk about right now we'll try to make it quick um um to keep everyone um today everyone has a limited Focus so we'll keep it fast we'll keep it short um okay so the story goes like this um what is what does it mean about Shem so balchem will just quote without getting by Rico's work Ali Tamara says there were many people throughout the generations such as a value about sham that we're talking about that they were able to do um different mifsim through using Shameless Hashem and that's what the name comes from they're able to do Yeshua is okay and they did through the usage of what's called cabalamysis they were able to do Polish Choice okay now What's significant over here is is that um as I'm trying I'm trying in this part to finish up the story today is to explain after everything not only to give um understanding of in the story that Professor lime brought to him but it's more about is that according to our mascana in episode number one that of this sugya is that the shamed of cotton from he's the Makar so who is this what's the story with him what's the safer what's the safer shank of Captain what's it about and that's why I'm trying to give this background so The Story Goes Like This according to the mission of novice and and many other macaries it would sound like it's very problematic to use cabalamysis it sounds if someone used a shame of Irish it doesn't have helical and it's brought down in different sources such as the mabit says if someone does use these um these um Sheamus for different things it causes different things in the different problems in the Bria recline vital talks about it at Great length they could be you could um Clippers could be Miss dabic to him or from tumor it's very and using cabalamysis is very problematic he show he actually lists out certain people who did cabalamysis and we know that according to kindly tile that this that it brought um they were killed for it and it's very dangerous also okay this brings from the Rizal is that to you to do cabal mices today it's very problematic because we in order to do it you have to be mamashtar from the from a paraduma we don't have the IFA Para so today it was it was already lost early on and from when it was lost we don't have this level of Tyra so mamela one cannot do these things this is obviously the studio of aphepara when it got lost is its own massive discussion from the usual everything but that we're not going to talk about today so on one hand we see there are sources already from the missionar Navas not to use and then going onwards or behind vital a great macabo talmovic of the Ariza not to do kabbalamysis okay very good um there's also other um concerns one concern brought up by the bow safer habris rapinfus is called repentless Hashem we will discuss him in an episode in uh in the series of Series 2 which we hope to start soon we'll be discussing it more by Rufus but bottom one is he says that even when you find these Sheamus that exist but it's very possible there's a printing mistake and so that that alone if you say the wrong shame and you end the wrong things it could be with the wrong thing cause major problems okay and there's other sources for such a thing alcohol we see from this that and and it's brought down in halacha there's a lot of macayers it's problematic to do cabalamysis okay so you'll think that this is not this is a simple matter so everyone knows that when it comes to in um by us you didn't we always have two Jews three views okay so over here the Marshall is a trooper from The Truman sedation records it but basically the story was if a sick person could go to um a witch to get cured it's not clear it discusses what's what's the sukim in the Taira what are they talking about when it says not to go ask Hulu at the end of the day the true sedation writes the anusarmamish it's not is which is subject to much discussion and today we're not discussing all aspects of this it could keep us going for many hours further on later on there's a tuba from the national Shiva also very interesting chuva he discusses which basically was someone steal something what do they do they would go to a witch to ask them where is the item similarly who was not even they would go to uh um to get a cure so we see this was common this is he says even further that he has a Dion if one could go to a priest who does who does through uh um somehow does a refuge and there's numerous numerous tubers on this topic I'm going to mention a little bit about this but you think it might you might think oh this is only olden days people don't believe in it today it's not so common it's beyond famine but just um this is a safer Troopers which is a collection of chuvas that were written to this remainder Katz he wrote from Haifa he wrote different uh all different questions and then he sometimes he would ask a bunch of rabbanim the same question one of the questions he asked way back um it seems there was some type of of priest that was supposed to be able to in the Philippines he was supposed to be able to do through energies and stuff um cure people but he said things when he did his when he did his cures and the question was asked Are you allowed to go to such a priest to get cured he brings down he was he wrote to about 17 or 18 the dailym all over starting from the steepler and they all talk about this question is there ever a time that he could rely on using Shea moists okay interestingly enough especially in El the world has recently become fascinated with the safer zero Simpson um and the school is with it article is translated into English there's books about him in English everything but less known is that he also besides for being a great guy he wrote some chuvas one of the only choos that we have that survived that was first printed from manuscript a few years ago also relates to this topic of going to a mashafa to get cured and again in this juva he has a whole lot request about it and he says specifically there are characters in The Velvet in the world the archiveness of RA if you with using using shame Hashem that are very problematic he says he was able to do this and he and he talks about um they're being they're able to be um they're able to be piled through usage of but these problem is that these are Sheamus of Tuma and he has a fascinating chuva about this topic also full of interesting things and bottom line is he says it's problematic to go to such a um to go to such a priest that's what he wrote about it very could die to see the juva interestingly enough in a recent work that was printed from manuscript the shiorim of the seppurnu and safer tehelum so he explains a whole Capital um that it's referring to the people that do Kabbalah maisieus that that when they do cabalamysis it's even though sometimes it's for good but it's very problematic what's happening and it's also could I to see how he explains in this work of his this capito dealing with this issue anyway this new bottom line is and I'm not here to list because I'll be here all night all the sources about and the truths that are relating to stuff from Bali ship just to list some of the materials out there is a very interesting book called jewels in Poland Lithuania in the 18th century from Professor Gershon hundred so he has a very good chapter about this there was a hash of the yid that wrote a book called magicians theologians and doctors Dr h.j zimmels so he also deals with this in his in his work um in my safer lookup de Lisa a small little booklet that I wrote I also collect a lot of the material of some others that talk about these type of topics and today there's a lot of material been written about with alternative medicine there's numerous Forum about it magic shows all these types of questions somehow relate to it one's a motorism it's a fascinating topic a lot to discuss umlander has a massive article in one of the recent recent issues of heiklabesh where he talks about camaeus in the hasidisha world all this relates to this topic what we're discussing so what's interesting is is that we see that people are doing all these things and it sounds like it is some form of cabalamysis what's going on is it Usher is it not anyway um I don't have a clear answer for this question but um it's clear it's clear to just say to conclude with a few points relating to this and this will explain more about this rabbinyan motion and that is as follows on one hand I said that there was such a thing that all these forum um on one hand I'm saying is that this mcivers that it's problematic but on the other hand it seems that there's all these swarm such as the roshanth of cotton that become very popular they become very very popular and not only are they popular but they are um best sellers and they're full of schools and some of them are even full of cabalamysis and they have a scamus of Hashem of the time it's not just that it's the shamed of cotton it's printed a bunch of times which we mentioned ten times nine times and the safe is a hero which we call the last time does it say from a philosophy Kim and this is um and there's a few other such works and they're literally best sellers now first of all this Farm is that besides having cabalamysis in them they also help a lot of them in Hogan that we have are also found in these Farms so they help get them and hug them out there because if it's a bestseller and La Marshall says the school of David that helped get get out there because a lot of people are seeing this work it also helps spread Kabbalah of the result so this farm and this Farm had a tremendous impact much greater impact than was realized before now even though it's possible and there's a fear that a lot of times that the Bali shame that are doing these things are problematic people or they're um they're they're even could be frauds which there have been many cases documented of frauds doing these type of things so there seems to be a tremendous contradiction because a few years ago it came out from manuscript a magic book full of Kabbalah micsias from none other than kindly Tau who I quoted as a source for being one of the great makairs how dangerous cabalamysis is and he has his wholesaler and not only that in the safer it's clear he's doing the stuff in the safer he's saying he's issuing these kameas he's issuing these different things he's using the different shameless Hashem to help people that had asked them for for help in different situations a fascinating fascinating safer and so what's shot so it's clear is that there were people that were accepted in Cloud Israel that they didn't know how to do the even though they're it's kind of dangerous but they knew how to do it however it was La Marshall one of the most famous things the mahlikas what was the there's a great strawberry what was it about it was about the Shea moist that he wrote the kameas that he wrote so Rihanna's knives he felt that he knew what to do had problems without getting into uh because what those problems were in general is is masculine that is this tremendous prayer of cabalamysis he writes about it in his farm it is but he says this frauds and there's a lot it's dangerous if it's done wrong anyway so the point is that there were kubalum Bali shame that were good people such as already from behind vital it goes much earlier we find that there was such a bomb already um from the times of the island is a very interesting truth about it okay now I have given a a whole talk once about rebellion rebellious also a yid who some people actually said is because they see there's so many fitless that have come up on auction of stuff from him but we explained he's a yakashi yid but he cameos by the thousands and there were no mice him in his lifetime he even himself discusses it so it's not even relying on my so that might never have happened now we've discussed that at one so just to just for you mentioned that I'm going to quote some lit fact that that was my sim and camaeus so none other and and if I didn't see it I wouldn't believe it one day um I come across the native giving a husband and he talks about the nephew a great mccable um great he was a nephew of and a close Talman of rukind Balaji and when he talks about him he says um he knew Kabbalah mysis when he's talking about it interesting in his has spit on River from emphasizes his his that he also knew kabbalamysis but you'll say okay fine he said not only that I found the letter later on a bunch of years ago that um the native had a kamea that he would give to people um it seems for people that had problems giving birth the the lady was in pain and stuff where was this kamea lift him from from this River from SIM ho who I just mentioned said he does I have to so I have to have one just one more welcome for you with a lit fact doing this type of stuff anyway um but he says I don't really know anything about it and I guess he says the native whoever believes in it okay it works whatever okay fine now coming to the end so who is this so the answer is that as far as we know thisem was such a person he was a hush of a person he had a tremendous and as he says throughout his work it seems that he had materials some manuscripts he traveled all over so probably that's how he had stuff but do we know anything about him so the answer is so for so one makuda is we look at um when the safer we look at as commas so sometimes you'll say that scammers are not so reliable they don't mean so much there's something to that sometimes but he had a uh in the Hashem he has asked from with David oppenheim and also from River from bride okay but they don't say much about him um okay fine what about um does anyone else say anything about him so yes in a safe Farm package which we all supported so he has a beautiful assama he gets from um the panameras and also from Natalia who is also a great mccobel says he was by me I saw him he was by me I know that he knows his stuff which is very significant because part of the nakuda with Kabbalah matheus is and as I said is there were a lot of frauds so he's definitely not a fraud according to these ascumbers so he could say and this is this is a valid um someone would say such a thing many times he might have been a fraud he could have forged he could have forged his own um as Commerce may be actually if you want to be so nervous from such a thing okay so I would like to um now before I conclude with if there's independent evidence about him personally I just want to mention there's also a safer called from someone named zilber a massive save for all about this topic it's over it's close to 700 Pages all about all aspects of this of this sugya of of um of getting Kishore fine horror because all this relates to what's found in this Farm okay but now to be Messiah to conclude with is there any evidence about this Rebellion so earlier I mentioned these are Pinterest cats in his fascinating water biography so come this autobiography is printed it was known to exist but it was first printed in 1986. mom is right away immediately people read it or love it it's beautiful it's still I think available it might even be available on Hebrew Books anyway so um as now this we're talking about over here what's significant is he has no idea is going to talk about him or whatever this is independent evidence and he says um at one point he talks he has a few passages where he talks about kabbalam Isis and he says he talks about a something that he did then he says that there was a Yin this is Rapunzel Morgan talking he says like this his name is he was in my house for a while and he and he gives what year and he says I got from different things but you're about Shane goddal um okay and then he discusses certain um things that are found in um okay that he says about himself that I myself repentance said I didn't really do um Kabbalah mysis he seems his father warned him not to it's dangerous it's problematic he talks about others then he says I got one thing that I did do I got it from who from the makobuyaman banish he it was uh for someone that's having difficulty giving birth and he says um it's been tested and tried that if you use it um it will work elimisa later on he says he asked him for another sugulla and he gave it him and it worked so here we have him describing that he was by him he's a tremendous macabo he's a year shamayam he's a good person and it worked later on he describes a little bit more about this about this um about um some other aspects about some of the stuff that he got from him and some other things that he saw from them but here we have in the pen that this only came to light in 1986 but here we have independent evidence himself as it's clear um that he knew him met him and he was a reliable person so it comes after to conclude is that thisem and similarly the same story could really be told about to save as a hero this is varum which were became best-selling swarm that are really now we're seeing are the makairs Philadelphia and many other men hug them there's actually an article um which shows some other men hug him that the earliest Makar is ashamed of katana obviously it needs a lot of um it's work and progress to figure out all the different hagam that it is the Makar but even if it's not the Makar the first Macabre but a lot of times if since it's set it there and it was such a popular safer at its time so it helped get the minute out there anyway bottom line is we have shown that Dominic of of saying with David has a hash of a person according to the accounts that we have of him and yes there were it's interesting to just to put a mildly um how it works out and fits into the whole history with cabalamysis but that's its own which we leave it up to the pie skin to discuss and not stamp people like myself okay thank you very much this was really a whole episode on its own of kabbalamysius Lucky call full tangentus I'm sure you have plenty more to say on many of these topics Maybe yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah all right thank you very much so now we have two complete episodes and we hope to have you back in the very near future