The Story of the Menorah: Design, Meaning & Legacy

Welcome back, Rabbi Dr. Elazzar Brat. I'm here in the United States of America. Brat is in the holy land in Israel. It is during the war brat told us that there's been an announcement that many missiles will be coming. Hashem should protect us all. and FB bread has some visitors in his you'll know why during this episode an episode about the manraim that were written describing how the mana looked in the B mikdash but even more important and I guess interesting to me is throughout the generations we've seen miner and schuls we've seen different he's shaking his head my introduction is already too long let's just get to the nishmas um and we are so happy that this dedication is sponsored lately master by Mustavski in memory of Mrs. is Ruth Canal of Seattle, Washington. Hal Sharifa Bas whose yard site is Nissan we are Nissan dedicated by her children Ellie and Eva Gau. So without further ado without me telling you what he's going to be talking about breath take it away. Okay so we're going to talk about all different aspects about the mana how to learn more about the mana. um as I call it's going to be a smorges board of some of the dunim throughout the generations and along the way we'll meet some sparamos. Okay. So first an autobiographical account which I'm fond of talking about autobiographies called memor memories of two generations life in Russia and Texas Alexander Gerwitz. We also learned to val um so he writes about the end of the winter was hard for us because the parishes at the end of the at the end of the winter were very hard talks about carbonas and the mishkuni he tried to draw pictures of the complicated manra of the mishkan with all its decorations although he himself did not comp comprehend its design and small wonder if the great moisha did not know until god himself showed it to him how can a small time town malamid hope to understand it and most certainly. How did he expect little children to master it? Okay. Anyway, uh he expected us to to be able to understand it. After tonight's shar, we'll definitely be able to relate that even if you're not a little kid, um the idea will come out very clearly how complex actually is. Okay. So, we already know say that Mosher Raenu had a great difficulty with it. Um and Rashi brings down the medish and Bakra said throw it in the fire. So the question already is asked what's able to do it later on. So already in his work on the Rambam of this he already talks about it over there in beginning of paragiml he says is different because it's was easier for him already he had raenu's or he takl and he has some other answers about this question and others do too. So the bottom line is you look at the you open up your parishes truma parishes they repeat it again. So first you look at the tukim and you're like big deal what's the big deal you learn these tukim and what all of a sudden we start learning it very carefully slowly not in a mindset of your youth where we already made fun of um how a lot of times remains the youth how he learned it as a kid with the pictures that he got he came home with and you start learning the and then you open up you learn other you start seeing how complex everything is the what they are theis was their feet in the was their feed on the manager? What's the exact weight? How did it look? Which ends up being a very big conversation. Is it was it like on a a slant or was it like round the the branches? Then everyone's everyone's very well aware of the the tusa the the what's called the ark of Titos the Mona over there. Is the picture real? What how is that did the mana is the still in the Vatican or Rome or Italy? Whatever. Okay. But gets there's all types of questions. So as usual, we will try to discuss some of them um today. Now so of course like like always there's a lot of written about it and unbelievable amounts of literature and ink has been spilled on this topic. To start one of my heroes, he wrote an article on the it's found in his and it's a very nice good article. who one wants to just get the basic questions how just to see how he sets up all different issues brings down um some fascinating raid sends it to some more makyus that's one major maram makum to use in very recent years encyclopedia mudis which has been trying to pop out a few volumes a year one of the most recent volumes is kun bay um and they too have a nice collection on the some very very um with many pictures to explain all the different aspects because as you said when you start learning the everything you see pictures is very very important to understand different things then there's also a work from mikdash from Israel it's called also a fascinating work on the topic and there is a work called the from the bible to modern Israel from Steven fine excellent work about this in English very well worth reading there's a work we spoke about rabasha meers from tells of Ohio wrote a massive work on the home of the big so he also did an incredible job on it and my dear friend Zilber who's fascinated with the topic of the in general sent me a crazy amount of literature that's been written over the years over the years on the mana and after starting to look and to do this I just be became beyond overwhelmed now why are we speaking about it now this is part of the the dafi we a few weeks ago we finished dafi has a bl and a half which deals with and again towards the end we're also going to have more aspects about and also comes up the kit there's a lot about so the gmorra takes these and all of a sudden when you start learning it when if you learn about or if you not learn and you just want to learn you start seeing a lot more is happening okay we already mentioned by in the episodes that there's some there's an early work called Bryce come very very early and the in this work there are at least two chapters that are devoted to the incredible also why because a lot of things even though the gamarra has more than a blot and a half about the there's a lot of information that's missing and if you have the mishk it will help you greatly of course to um we we spoke a little bit about it we gave we had a whole episode which we we dealt with and the mishkan so we spoke a little bit about the origins of the bison had it and um so you should look at parish also excellent parish on the on the work now only came available very late on for some others but of note was the malum they use it and more recently I could say and his work on the raim incredible work zan in the article Chris quarter they also use a lot and for states they also do. Yeah. Um just one other thing in the new encycloped on they put in reban's article reban being the the main person from the founding aspects of all aspects of the psych. So they put his article there also farer here you have an early makar of kazal going through all different aspects. Okay. Now so one of the things we which we already said it's it's it's very hard. So what's so hard to make it? The answer is when you start learning the so you have to know well what's the exact designs all the exact designs amount of opinions between the and ready going back to kazal it's it's remarkable so first that's one aspect what it's hard about another aspect that it's hard about is how to make this it all had to be made from one piece of gold now just to just to just give throw out another fascinating thing an early makur that we have is something known as put yani this is very very early And in there um there's a there's a piece that he talks about that the we know that there was and each one he says was a different shade of gold. Theft was the were white and the were so now imagine that you had to make even different shades of gold in the thing. Now the question is um so my friend Rabbi Yakustal I've quoted him in the past he has a journal which he publishes on um every few weeks called so he has a 20 something page article where he deals with this aspect of the gold and he try and he actually shows that there were other early early pythonum that had possible um this this concept of how to make it that was so exact even with the the shades of gold these items had to be in specific shades of gold. He brings certain madrasa might be alluding to this and he even locates some old um archa archaeological discoveries or paintings let's say in the middle ages that might even possibly show this to be true. Okay. Anyway, so but it's very complicated. So now if something's very complicated what's the first thing I which I already said a few times you have to have visual aid. Visual aid is to have pictures. Now I've spoken about this many many times um in general how important it is and is coming up soon to hul. So hulen it's legendary also that that it's a it's a huge difference if one learns hulen with images you because we are regular people we are not exposed to animals and to know all the parts of animals. So the it changes the mak to so here too when you learn the and you have the pictures in front of you uh it's it's remarkable they were already aware of this so as early back in lash a work 1598 from Krakow called he was a it's a work that's full of of pictures all over of a lot of the gar pictures and has so he has a picture of the to help one learn the now Then a little earlier there was a work published um called Burim and it's attributed to Rimas and Shapi. This work is published in 1593 and it all this tool also has a picture of the manra and the purpose of the picture is not just decorations. It's a picture to help you when you're learning Rashi. It's a work on Rashi. later on it was in that it's a it's a forgery. It was not written by Shapi. um it's not the Mala Mukis who blazer Catsman deals with this in his work on the Mala Mukis and so it turns out but people did not know this so they use this picture as if the Malamuk um says it as a matter of fact even that I just mentioned and also the early work called is from who's more famous for his work so he wrote a beautiful work on the mikdash and he has nla on the also with pictures. Again, this this concept. So, he um he refers to the the picture of Rnan Shapir. He's not aware that it wasn't really his. Okay. Anyway, um it just recently was republished and it was a very hush of a work in general. Okay. Now, there's another early work, a Talmud de Marshall called the Das, a credible work on Rashi. He had old manuscripts of Rashi and he also has a beautiful picture in his work. So we see that already in the early printing in the early tubas of print they were aware that it's important to have in front of you a picture of the as I said man is very high now the question becomes did rashi make a picture and does the rama make a picture the answer is like this rashi when you start when you learn the one of the place rashi says and then you look there's no picture there ISIS um different um garers you later on I said at the end of the sadics there's a picture of is that rashi there's a picture now the question is who put that picture in so in general Ellie Ganau who's one of the sponsors of today's shir he's been working extensively on rashies and the pictures and who put the pictures in and what they tampered with and what's going on with this so this rashi this particular rashi has not dealt with but the point is that already in if you open up your shas va a standard thing in the back you'll see a picture of according to rashi possibly of the now but does Rashi make a picture have pictures in Kish. So now this is interesting also um um the MAR Lashel is a fellow who worked a lot on on professor Gruber has worked a lot on Rashi and images bal um so he shows that there are some manuscripts of Rashi and others have discovered this earlier he writes who um that it seems maybe rashi might have had pictures of the now one of the theories behind it is it's not only because of the hardship it's also because for the longing of the bas mikdash possibly Um that's a suggestion that's been thrown out. Um the um also okay but the bottom line is the for the way I see it is more it's comp it's it's complicated. So they added they attempted to make pictures. So there are pictures that are that are so far back that they might be even attributed to Rashi. Okay. Now um so now but as far as Shasna um it's unclear fine. Now Shas VNA mean say I L I pulled out to look into let's say in Bramberg one of the earlier editions of the Talmud there. there's no pictures. So someone has to check where the pictures when this picture came in. As I said, Gar has has done this for a lot of but for this for this one he has not. Now just to throw out there just this past few weeks a book came out on the vn from from um also important to know about general. Okay. Now that's so that's rashi. What about the raam? So what's interesting is like this um when you open up when you learn um Rambam or sometimes you know some kids they like to look in the Garus and they'll see there's a picture in the of maybe even Rambam over here in paraglim he he has depending which traditions you use he has he says like this says I feel that you need to have a picture and I'm going to make a picture. And he and he goes on and he makes a whole picture and he explains many lines devoted to explaining all different aspects of the based on the what are how the should look and then he has a ver a real picture. Okay. So now the question always was is it now I did not track all the different of but the significance is like this in at certain points in time we have located u without giving all the details Rabbi Kapak has published in the 1960s the parish of based on the Rambam with based on the the of the Rambam. So this picture is authenticated that this is the real authentic picture of the Rambam. How the Rambam drew it. Now what's very interesting is as follows and this is what everyone points out and this has been a lot of ink has been spilled on this. We're not going to go through the the actual topic just to mention is as follows. When you have a how do you a standard way of the mana is it's like the all the branches are round in the Rambam it's on an angle. I'm just going to show it over here for those that could see. I think you might be able to see looks like this. And so this is how Kapak publishes in the 60s this picture of the Rambam and he's claiming based on other um that this is how the Ram wrote it. Okay. So the Ram seems to be writing that that it's on an angle. Everyone knows you ask everyone you look and pictures everywhere and and things that they discover. They're all round not similar to the Rama. Turns out Rashi also the it's possible that he held um that it's also supposed to be like this. Okay. Now the question is um so there's a there's a fascinating piece that was also disco around the time that Kapak discovers the actual picture of the Rambam. Um so there's a fascinating piece of benam. Let me see if I have it here. Sorry. Anyway, I don't have the I don't have the quote of the Ramadan Ram over here where Raman Ram also talks about this picture his father made. So part of the conversation is was the Ram let's say was he an artist and was he being exact exact that this is how he felt it was and it should be taka on an angle not round that this is part of the discussion and um and we'll see a drop about that momentarily lisa um in his work on that I quoted earlier about the manra and he deals with at length discussing the rambita possible problems with the ramam um the kabadskar the labrebba and kabad in general are fascinated by this topic. He's the labrebba has written and spoken a lot about it. They've collected a lot about this and um you there's a safer um that I got recently called where he deals with at length all the different aspects from this picture just not not just I'm just focusing on the the thing that everyone talks about because it's glaring on you but all the different aspects how the Rama makes the kis and how all the different things they analyze it at to death um and a lot of articles have been written about this over the years Now, okay. So, the question is, is it possible even that the Rambams that there's true is there other McCyus possibly that the Rambam that the Ramom holds like this? Besides for this picture that some people say, okay, we don't we don't want to believe is authentic. Now, part of the problem is like this. We have um Sashankki, he uses this picture in his work on the Ram. He has a bunch of things that he points out in different aspects. sees mamish very carefully looking at it how the Frankl Rambam uses this picture in the back they publish it um there's other Rambam pictures also elsewhere but the bottom line is um possibly Rashi the Rambam this is how they held that the mono should be as opposed to the standard way you think of how a looks now interestingly enough recently so I said sorry Kyfki he shows um that pass he goes that it's possible that this is the how the Rama really wrote it And this is and my and and there's other mccclary in the ram and also that this is what we allude to interestingly enough is like this neal has he gives shir on um raam at some points and he gives a sh he gamb and someone wrote up he wrote up like in depth transcripts of word for word what he said in so it's interesting is that in three different places in the when the ra talks about it he says straight up that he held that this is the Um he he talks all about lamal everyone points to what do you mean we have the famous the arch of tus that the monra is real not like the ra so it would seem that that's a not like the rabb and plus we have numerous numerous discoveries archaeological discoveries that are ancient that are definitely do not go like the ra so he says like this don't bring me a ray he he's willing to accept he believes he's he buys into very strongly that the Rama and other places in the Rama it's clear this is how the Ram held like this and that it's and it makes a lot of sense and he talks about it in three different places and we say in three different he came back to this he says you'll bring me between the well of course like then he says all the different pictures he find the archaeological discoveries and the coins everyone copied from each other so basically he's willing to accept very strongly he even talks about what they say. He says he says um um um he talks about that too in in these transcripts of the which is very very nice on the plays out very importantly as I just said with because part of the conversation is what's going on over here is this an authentic per picture or not so kapak he says that this that it's not authentic and part of his one of his nudas is that people say the angles is no the ram is different the rama holds down like this and it's not a forge and it's authentic and this is the how the raam had it okay now besides for kapak um interestingly enough revs also felt very strongly that you cannot bring a raya from the tus in the tourists of the mana and tus in Rome now a few aspects were raised one of them is that the is the base the base of the manra has does not have feet which we'll get back to momentarily and also there's pictures images of that is which it seems to be problematic based on Gumar. So that's one um problem to show that Herzog felt that this is not authentic at least that for sure not that part of the image of Titos that's found in Rome. Now then he says what another point is he he talks about is the aspect of how does the forget about if there's pictures on it are there feet to the um manra so normally when you look at a picture of the manayra what would you you would say so the answer is you would assume it has feet but does is there any that it has feet so as a pash rashi the raam they say it has feet three feet and numerous The sources all say it has three feet. Okay. Some people say that's how something stands and they have it's pure. It was pasha to everyone that it stood with feet. Now the problem is the picture by the the the drawing the whatever you want to call does not have three feet. It has a thing but besides for it having pictures of of problematic things that goes against the gar but it doesn't have feet. So that's another riyah glaring that this is not authentic. Okay. So what's interesting is like this is there for three feet for for that there's three region under the so I found it very interesting is that so everyone says there must be there's a somewhere about it. So it turns out and already way back in his car and then also in his he sends you to what's known as um a medish tad pericude and if you look in let's say encyclopedia tamudis they send you to there as a maramakum okay great so you'll say we have a maramakum there's a there's a medish now is there is a such a medish and so you open up your so right away I open up my medish and I can't this medish and I can't find it. I'm looking high and lower kineski. I have checked him up many many times especially when it comes to kazal. If he says something it's there it's usually going to be there. So I spent a lot of time looking into this um nuda and I see as follows that the taka is a medish tache per and in this peric. So first of all this is a authentic medish that was only published let's say 150 years ago for the first time then it was published a few other times. There are some early manuscripts um of this medish that exist. I actually today wanted to check the exact of all the manuscripts are but none of them are available to if you're very spoiled today most not most but a very large percentage of things by clicking a few buttons if you know what to click you could get to manuscript popping up on your computer screen after a few minutes for some reason these manuscripts of this magish are not you're not able to do so um and in the short amount of time that I had to locate it it would take it actually take a lot of time to find so what happened is like this a medish pic um I I think it's parakeially in some it might be in paral. So it says like this it's it's very has to do with um numbers this um this this par deals with so it talks about um says as follows that's 70 then it says next what are the and then it says some of the things it lists out and then it goes on another thing okay so now when you look at this line it says says, "So where in the world does it say anything about three feet?" The answer is that it appears that there's a that says um what are the so but that would need that it's not talking about it's talking about specifically there's another gear that says now so that's so had such a gear now we already spoken about in other episodes that he used of Eisenstein and Taka that's the that Eisenstein has when he brings down this he has this medish but he um tampered with it and stuff like that. So, Hitaka has um this of um he has this. Okay. Now, the inraim he adds in giml. Now, no one said it doesn't say it openly in any of the but he adds that in I I don't think anyone else says that actually no no maybe someone else does say that. Now it turns out bottom line is that there really is not so knew about it from his that he had in the med but it turns out that we have there are definitely some of this med that says it would read like this um there are something like that and amongst those what are them and it counts even the as part of this to get up to get up to this high number of 70 that would based on the and the par that there's one or two people that talk about this mag say it has to be that this three feet. So here we have a macari no one else um points to this macar but this rah keski in his unique type of makius so it exists and just to throw out the rabb epste many years ago he worked a lot on this medish it's considered authentic early medish and he discusses all different aspects about it in his work on this medish ramen in his ram talks about this medish showing earlier sources about it okay but the bottom line is that what I'm trying to show is that this medish is the is a source. So now this would conflict with the image that we have today the of tus okay what's called the man tus or the arc of tus far now another small aspect is was there a was there a stone in front of the mana how did the k got a little light he had to stand on a stone did the stone have steps so this also this gets us to talk about to say which we mentioned in a different episode so he was it's an incredible encyclopedic work about the mishk mdash all these different aspects so he also so he talks about it at length exactly which aspect of the stone and he's like into all these type of technical aspects but Kazal talks about there was such a there was such a thing for now okay so now this will get us to hold on okay so now this conversation also plays out with a complicated chila which plays out as follows and that is making a model a mach um mishkun so that the kids can learn it so you want to make them anra So you want to do a unbelievable job. Is one allowed to make a like let's say like Rashi or other or use the other works about this and put it out um and do such a thing. So it turns out that this is a very complex um topic. Now you have to understand that we're asking it I'm the way I'm bringing it out is in for modern day for our period of time which is we we have electricity. But in the olden days they didn't have electricity. So what did they have? they had manus that's how they lit so it's nice to have a mana that just um you know similar to the man of mikdash you know six is very convenient I mean seven it's very convenient so is that even allowed so turns out that there is a based on and also this parallelis and rash and it says as follows Okay. Then it says you should not make a but it says like this. See so basically not to make an identical like means say you want to make a model you can make a model just don't make it identical. Okay. So what does that mean? What does it mean you can't make it identical? says even if you use other metals even if you don't have the mean you're not going to do the best job you're not going to do which is also the shear of how high is so if you don't do that but you're doing seven says no this is based on the gra and this is the ultimate sack of this is based on the chik and sim has a massive chuva where he deals with this and basically is it comes out that if it's mish if it's in any way seven is considered the identical way how it was in the times of the the mishk mdash and that's the problem so if it has seven so you can't make such a so now the even the way the mab is saying it sounds like with a model but it's not it's really much more it's really how they had c they had lights until electricity was so you should not have such a Okay. Uh and he has the the Marik has a whole arus over here. Okay. Now comes along the sh and the shak seems to very complicated how to learn up the shak different possibilities how to learn the shak and it might come out according to the shak that that if let's say you have a wooden ca um candles with seven it will be it will be it will be mut. Now just to show you how ledict this was. So in chuva of so he has a chuva where he deals with this very topic because as I said it's it was very more if one could make a um of seven and you don't have the so he says this is what's quoted everyone brings this down right the peska quotes by which is in the in the back in rash he talks he goes goes very strongly against the um shak and basically his conclusion is that one cannot make um you cannot make let's say you want you have um sorry let me just see if I could find the copies moral of the story don't have too many pages so basically the ink says you should not um people wanted to make a similar to the mikdashim some maybe even they felt it's He says no cannot. He goes very strongly against the sha and he says look in the mic etc. Now so um does not go does not go he he seems to argue on it. He also tries to explain the sh and it turns out this concept of of lighting it in a round uh format. we'll we'll get to momentarily. also has a chuva about this quoted by the piskim and he he basically his chuva is um just as the question was if I can make it ara and it has on top eight n it'sim but it has eight um eight and he basically comes out he deals with also that will be mut that that it's mut lisa you have to look at lamashar inar and others and it's not a simple matter what to do but it also plays out in how the even looked and say we picture that it was there was seven so first and his and others that this is why the kanak is eight because of this and that's this somehow answers the famous question and others throw throw that out there. But what happens is like this. The um we assumed the looked there was three and three and then in the middle there was there was another one and each and the three each three was facing the sham what we'll call just for lack of a better term. It seems from possible illustion of a saf and deals with this and this also deals with this is that it was round mean to say there is that they they all the the seven there was six and it was in a it was it was round completely different picture than how you picture it and taken that that's how people made so the qu and that's really the question that the tar is asking I'm not making it let's say I make it not like the way the manra that everyone pictures was in the bas mikdash I make it completely completely different would that bear making it round. So this um this um um professor Spurber has some pictures to show this and that that there are that that's how people had uh lights in the middle ages as I said keep on saying this is how they lit in the middle ages and bottom line is well this is this plays out inic aspect so what people go back to is the with with tus also okay fine now just to mention um three more nudis to this episode if I could find my papers cuz they really got mixed up over here bad. Give me a second over here. Wow, this is okay. So, Marshall, just to throw out here writes about he says he remembers and they added it to make it eight. So you see the also saying um going like this but look in the and all the of the of the the about this um topic. Okay. The kit thera um becomes the symbol. It's found everywhere already from archaeological discoveries every thera is everywhere. And as printing press goes on you find that thearam are adorned with the manra. And this has been traced by an article from my friend uh Dan Rabininoitz on this foreign blog, the image of the manra in the early printed Hebrew book. And there's a lot of literature about this all over. Um there's a doctorate that deals with it showing in the early prints tracing the the picture of the was very popular. There's a lady she's famous for working about the pictures or all the um decorations in the sh. So she has a book called the carved wooden Torah arcs of Eastern Europe. So there too she has a bunch of pictures of how the the throughout shuls all over Europe tracing how far back it goes and different interesting pictures she puts in her book of the mana it's everywhere. Okay. So like everything else there has to be a schula possibly attached with this and that is as follows. The um now what's interesting is this schula does not come from the uh you know the people that like some people like to make fun of schools especially litfax. So this is a much different type of a school there's known as the school affiliated with peric Sam of and there was such a thing turns out there's early that there's that talk about it we'll get to that a momentarily and the marshall he has a a very small called a few pages like eight pages in the it's published what year is it published 1581 That's literally a few years after the um um dies. And in there it says like this. When do went out to war, he took this in the form of okay it's going to help this. This is the we know even the whole discussion now this is the talking of the all different types of things and then it says the kids are all types of schoolers. Now then there's next eight pages way above my pay gradeal and this is the Marshall one of the greatest of all time that we have saying this wing this okay shortly afterwards is a tal of his wrote a called and he writes in talking about his rabbi's work on the capital and he's going to be with he wrote a work on the okay and his work also has things and he deals with the he also deals with the incred incredible work called so okay so all of a sudden we're seeing some interesting aspect with the going further on so there's a incredible arus a lady did it seems she wrote a doctorate about it also but in a volume um she basically wrote it's called the the shi luak okay so what am I referring to and and that's his files when you open You noticed this when he learned one of the first in says of his his uncle brings something from him about it. So this is um the problem is people don't watch it. Is it problematic? Um so maybe you should be um then he says like this a lot of shs even today many many shoes have a they even have fancy decorations with it we're talking about if you have a paper and then people are not going to be careful with it that's the problem and it could come to fine okay so talks about this is um mish in the beginning of so the over here is like this that there's a linkage between what what ultimately she deals with incredible over here the shiu has to do with that um also has to do with um the this marshal and it's earlier than the marshal of sam having in the form of a manra so the shvisi wasn't just that in the manra it had this and all the different pictures she deals with this at great length um in this article found in almost 50 pages with dozens of pictures showing this and everyone knows you see you've seen this in many shs that you um have traveled and seen this type of thing and this is what's going on. So there's a tremendous power of capital already from and it has to do with the tour of and eventually transforms into a different thing of the thing but it somehow link the two men hug link which is common enough um we're not going to document it okay I just have two more to conclude and that is fum just like everything else there's an aspect in the which is that sometimes we try to give not we try to give sometimes do for the various mitzvah that we have. So what's the story with the manra? the reason behind the so he talks about he talks about and he says about the okay and he says okay this is a beautiful language from the ra to have an effect on you and there's a lot happening in this Rambam but I'm just going to discuss briefly because part of the point over here is certain aspects like this number one is that there is a safer from called where he deals with it's a hoax and only the recent in recent years the past maybe it was all done in a recent ketad from two years ago. It was published by um hold on Ellie Garfinkle and this has a little more about what's going on. This from Tib from the famous Tiban family the many aspects from the Ra who wrote a lot of philosophical works which some have come to light in recent years. So he publishes this work also dealing with the philosophical aspects behind the how it deals with the ra and he deals with it in his introduction discussing okay now what's why am I even going down this thing not normal to talk about this and answers like this what are the deal with the mishkdash is the rama wrote a work called and that is an incredible philosophical work the ram wrote of perishable philosophy. So this is a philosophical work on a large about the kum of the of the mushka. So number one is when it was rep so it was first published in his lifetime 1570 I believe it was and then it was republished in the 1860s and has beautiful asamas from various gadul and many others and bottom line is here you see the rama in a whole different light and this plays out with the famous chuva the rama verse the marshal the early chuvous over there the marshal goes against the ramma for spending time learning philosophy and the rama defends himself these are famous truest that everyone likes to quote the topic but turns out it's not just that he he was familiar with it he wrote a whole now called and has published in his life a massive work which deals with philosophical aspects so now the ra the rama writes to the we know and we spoke about already learning kachum how important it is to learn kachum so you also have to understand it so you have to so that's why he's justifying not only does you're supposed to say carbonus and learn kaban you have to understand it so that's why he's going into the sun to try to be understand the aspects behind and the mdash and the mishk. So he has on the in his work a few pro devoted to it. He deals with he deals with um theelish on the explaining and he links to everyone knows or and this has to do with so we're just throwing out there yet another work a safer that deals with with this in a philosophical aspect besides the earlier work from Tim and again it's kadai to He now it's interesting is less wellknown is Rama gave Shir also in his yes is yeshiva so it's interesting is he gave on and he also gave Shir on philosophy to his eliteim um we have actually notes of the of his and we have his work over here the published in his lifetime one wants to see he has uh and then I just like to throw out there there's expression which has to do with the so it's early um um in the beginning of mikates then points this out linking this to that the aspects of the and the point was is that when someone would say they would say and I also grew up hearing such a thing so it's even an early medish about this and has beautiful discussions all different aspects of the relate to his overall themes of his work and we're not going to go into all the different aspects of what he says but he he speaks about beginning and also okay now just to conclude and this is not to do justice to this topic this is not a topic that I um have much to say about it but we I feel we're talking about the so and this deals with the tas also is where is the bish today so this is also A lot of lot of ink has been spilled about this. A a lot of fact and a lot of sorry very little fact mostly legend. Okay. Now interestingly enough and I've quoted this in the past. There's a lot of travels of of people that used to travel all over the time. One of the most famous travelers is Tidu. So he already writes and I'm quoting the English version that the um in Rome they talk about that there's a cave that had in it that runs underground and in there was the on second they had stuff from the bas mikdash um okay this is also the cave where titus's son stored the temple vessels which he brought back from your so this is an early source from saying such a thing okay lisa when I was growing up always so I always heard that rais Raisha Blauisha Blau is famous for me was famous and I quote him always in old episodes for the he did a incredible bringal Israel publishing numerous numerous works of Rishim from manuscript and one wants to read about his life recently and I be more than happy to share the PDF about it they put out a book of his based on his memoirs about his life and he publishes numerous so they used to say is that he had access to the Vatican that's how he got his and he also he knew knew sh where the Kalin were in the Vatican and a whole whole discussion about it supposedly I did not check on the internet one will find his name linked various sites with this that he saw it or he knew about it now it's interesting is that in these memoirs they don't talk about it at all and it says he never went to the Vatican um okay and these are authentic um memoirs published by his family and there's no chapter or piece even at all about the cle mdash so this is actually the way if you start tracking down a lot of the legends You'll see this is what ends up happening. The people that they say they supposedly saw it, they heard about it. It's not true. Um and I'm just going to quote the three four sources and then we will come to the bitter end that is false. Number one is Marx wrote this work calledus. It's a famous work. He wrote it in German. Some people love it, some people hate it. Um and he claims that the rader while he was working on his he ends up in um he somehow got to the Vatican and he might have seen it. Okay. And he might have seen the the basically the caum of the ba mikdash. That's what he says. Again I apologize. I have way too many papers. So that's the mess over here. And he basically says such a thing um when he was there and he saw the tits I think he says and some other aspects. Kasher in his legendary entire he has he says I spoke with the they don't know of any such thing if he would have seen such a thing he would have made sure to he would have written about it so he never saw the sets say the story was that he saw the sets this is not about the per okay and he says he he doesn't know why Marcus put this in his book Um and you have to be very careful not to rely on these type of things. Okay. When I was growing up there was a famous book that till today is is very famous. People like to read all for the boss. And I remember I'm pretty sure there there's a passage where they found the all of a sudden someone found the kingd or somehow it got that oh it's time for Mashia's going to be coming and Arab had it and then the Arab died. A whole famous story. I don't remember the details going back a very long time ago. I don't have the book um handy to check the story but there's such a discussion. Okay. Anyway, so in this uh work from Steven Fine he has a incredible ml this book is fascinating and he has a few chapters where he deals with it showing them what people say and what they do and unbelievable. I I noticed at least more than one in recent years Amy magazine has artic had articles about I think articles about all different discussions about it everywhere and every once in a while says yeah yeah I have I got the connections and there's some story and there's an interview discovered with someone that saying that they know where the lost kumar are and just to conclude few years back I came across a chuva um actually many years ago come a truafher the nitra far I'm obviously saying his name wrong fascinating work and the back of the work he talks about um I'm looking through this work I don't know if it's I I don't know if it's quoted in the works that everyone talks about about the uh Vatican going to the Vatican the ka bdash I come across a chuva hold on and this is how we'll conclude he says what's the story with rabbi many people ask if in Rome they have the mdash okay gets he has all beautiful truth over here how he want heer he ends up in Rome. Fine. Why he ends up in Rome, it's to read and what and he goes there and he sees all different things and and in there it goes off on tangents. He basically at one point also relating to us now Kachum is there is there Kachcham? Isn't there Kachum? He says he saw it. He wanted to see if it's really in the Vatican. He talks all about these things. He gets to the Vatican. They're very nice to him. He discusses things that they showed him. They told him he goes off topic all about this. And then he says, "What is the story again about if the ka are there?" So he says, "Could they even testify?" And he brings a whole bunch of makyus about it. Um if the ka are there and then he says like this, so I asked when I was there, I asked one of the people he got close with. It seems that he was very nice to him. This is in the overund years ago. And he says, "No, we don't have it. They even let he said they even let me go see inside the like you know the back room and it's fascinating is this story that he's saying that took place um in the early 1900s this is like dozens there's many many stories of people that they like to say this story still happening till today and bottom line is we have yet to locate we have as far as we're able to tell it's not there um but again I'm not an expert in this at all um the also there was nois found over there but there it would make sense that it would be because it seems that they use the but it seems that it's not there. Are there manuscripts there? Definitely I accessed myself I I'll tell you a short story um to conclude the bottom line is we have yet to locate the caum of the bas mikdash or the us kachum in the Vatican and I'll conclude with the following thing is like this is mamish not typical and it's off the cuff but basically like this I'm working the war has been going on ever since before pum and I'm sitting here and I'm not able to focus a lot and write as much as I want to about my main works all of a sudden on um I come across a fellow and this fellow he basically learned in valin and this and this person he now he learns in eventually he makes his way to Paris and then he goes to all the universities all the different um places libraries and becomes a professional copier of manuscripts and he publishes in all the newspapers the things that he finds and he's the person behind he transcribes the uranim the standard uranium that you buy in the store today he transcribed it says his name in the front he was ish val who ends up becoming a copier. goes to all the libraries, the Vatican plenty of times and he says and what some of the letters I discover. He writes to Marshall, "Oh, Boober, I'm in Vatican. What do you need? I'll make you copies." Now, to understand this is how it worked in the old days. It's like we sit, we're spoiled. We have the computer. So, all you do is you, as I said, you press a few buttons and you have a crazy manuscript. So I'm sitting in my room while the bombs are going off and I'm deep in I'm going back 150 130 years into all different archives all over the world discovering all different letters correspondences this guy with all different people which some of it I hope to publish soon and the point is so yes in the Vatican there are plenty of manuscripts out of which you can access on the internet but we have yet to locate the US kachum seems it's actually very likely there was never a shami kachchim to conclude we have yet to locate the ka English. So these are some of the aspects of complete board of the of the mana. I apologize um for the time. >> No need to apologize. I'm sure who's whoever has made it this far is very eager to hear every word. Thank you very much. And I believe you kept it under an hour. So we will be in touch. Once again, if you're still listening, visit elazzerbr.com for more information and other shurim. Reach out to myself and to Rabbi Brat for any questions, comments, suggestions, and of course, dedication opportunities. Thank you.