The Get of Cleves and Mental Illness

[Music] foreign [Music] T it's a pleasure to be with you once again and we will be discussing the final episode about getting controversies and this one is about one that is probably the most famous many people have read about and heard various presentations on and that is the get of cleaves so let's see what Rabbi Dr Eleazar brought is going to add to the conversation I'm sure he'll bring unique perspective and illuminate some of the content that's already out there we would like to dedicate this year in memory of rep Shalom Ben reverse will talk about him very very briefly this was someone who was very close to Rabbi brought he was someone who had the opportunity to bring many many as far in to print if you wanna share very brief words about Mr Shalom Jacob who passed away Rabbi Shalom Jacob yes so basically Robert Sean Jacobs is someone I knew for over 20 years are you living in Muncie it was about a bus but I find it very hard to believe that he was really about a bus I don't know when he really worked he published over 25's farm with footnotes some of them even from manuscript from good Island from the past 400 years more recent times and almost every year he would published a different safer he was a tremendous he put in the Swarm there's history in this Farm the The Marvelous of them and he was a major havervest farm and he helped me a lot of times sometimes producing something rare a rare you deal that he had from his library or letting me know about some rare book very helpful person in general baklal and I'm sure all the mahabrese farm that he worked on greeting him greeted him right away it's a shame about all the others Farm projects He was working on okay so today we hope to talk about is the the one of the most important and Famous Jewish history which is known as the geta Cleaves so to begin is like this the story in two sentences and I'm saying then two sentences and soon we will get back to more in length it's basically a get was written in 1766 some people started to question the validity of the sket others defended it the reason was question was because it depended about the mental stability of the Hassan now because of this story numerous tubers and letters are written about this and many of them were collected into two volumes one was called arhayashar published in 1769 and more than later on in 1902 and in 1770 a safer are you throw which had in a bunch of letters also we'll and we'll discuss who the authors are and how it relates soon now these volumes have many of the letters with dates and other information so it helps us piece together a good idea of the story that happened besides for this some other documents survived to help us understand now I'm going to return to more about this soon first I would like to mention is like this when we're discussing a controversy that was a vicious controversy at the time you have to keep in mind the words remastered after he lists various controversies he says yes at the time people were fire people were fighting it was vicious and it was not but of the different of the different people I could imagine imagine certain times you know fights on the internet and everyone's tumbling and everyone has a day every every vehicle Barrel has an opinion about something in the mic for news and the everyone's tumbling but the people that were mainly involved with xylem they were definitely and they had um it was for them it was there was no evil things going on in the mahalicus and we have to keep that in mind as we'll discuss different aspects now some say that this fight caused the downfall of how hamon how the masses looked at the volume after this fight I find it hard to believe maybe at that period of time for those few years but it's not like the internet I don't think it had a qm I don't really think that it had a major impact later on um maybe if someone reads this far from certain aspects we'll get them to that conclusion but I'm not I think that this fight did not cause such long-term effects as a matter of fact I think that this fight caused a good thing again obviously not it wasn't good that there was a fight but and I'll explain what I mean the outcome of this is that the um it's not just that it's a hot controversial topic but because of it numerous truvis were written and these became today and from when they were written already as I'm going to show the go-to literature on the topic of mental illness and they're the starting point of all the conversations for mental illness from this discussion you'll see always almost always when someone's talking about mental illness somehow the ghetto Cleaves is going to come in there okay now we also see a bit of the Allah in such kind of issues because many times the person in question is not in front of the gado so they can't speak to them examine and interview them so they have to rely on the information that was sent in in the question and we see over here what they had and how they reached their conclusions now for now so the kids are the Marshall there's a famous thing declaring mental Insanity so it depends on the literature written for this topic okay I'm just going to mention briefly just to show you however you want to call it which we'll see is where the prime of shaita of water shaita is he says you want to know what a shait is look in the Safari Yasha we're It's all where you'll see everyone what it is his Rabbi River finds out Margolis in a chuva which was published a little before 1815 it was published in 1818 but it was written a little before 1815 where mayor of in Bride at the time a good friend over from Zaman there was a complicated and basically reframe Zalman was asked to help out with the situation and all that the union was about going through the various had written in this fast forward in the 1870s there's a gevalo gachuva from her Prime vax and chubishaya a massive chuva also about a shaita a whole interesting story and what was the thing that played out when he was dealing with the shaita and again well the devnastics the safer are hayasha all the different the building which we'll see about shortly in 1910 I came across a work called arhayusharam which was also relating to some Tamil about a shaita and giten issues and Romero simcha in a letter that the Mahaba wrote To Remember for assistance or mayor simply said but go for Indian I remember in this but I don't have it in front of me okay and we'll get to that Chua soon just to end one another and also if someone asked them a whole complicated question relating to uh mashaita and he says well the you don't have to go any further there's a safer or yashar and and about to get at that time and it has all the issues to discuss what constitutes someone being okay yeah it's a shame that these actual works are not easily around for purchase if they're so important but Hashem today one can find them for free on Hebrew books now I'm not sure why but the truth is that the Daily Language we're going to see wrote on Marshall tonight they're not included in their own volumes that they published the martial the Publishers in 1776. this fight happens a few years earlier and it's published I mentioned the Arya Yasha a bunch of truths on the topic it's not included in there okay so you could say for every reason wasn't published in 1776 but his son went ahead with shmuel and in 1811 made a we have volume two of them even there it's not included I don't know why not but there is a letter in the aryasha where he says specifically is not against it being published um okay similar to Zach publishes his true essay for 1773 right after this fight he has an interesting truth about shaita which is also quoted but he doesn't include he has a bunch of chuvas in this safer ayasha also not there I don't know the answer um now Lamesa sometimes we have that people do go ahead and publish it Le Marshall 1995 this is and he goes ahead and publishes many the true of his family in the Usher but for some reason he takes out he does a lot of censorship and he takes out all the different things that happen in the story and he just gives you like the basic bottom line of what comes out in the in these chuvacci quotes only parts of these troops which why am I pointing this out better censorship because the mice in 1902 a yid went ahead and galitiani decided these the safe is not around it's so important I already just mentioned a few just a few cases and there's probably many more how this is the starting point so he went ahead to publish it and he got us comments from the base it's called from Lango and others and no one told him to censor any parts even though there was this as we're going to see some very sharp material found in the safe okay obviously this is something um deals with the topic of censorship and um preserving different things okay now anyway as I said shaita mental unless it comes out from this topic sadly mental illness today is very common all kinds of aspects is major minor there's some type of statistic that there's not enough people today in the mental health field to to deal with it all that's how bad it is um currently in in the world of course we know how every Yeshiva guy thinks he can easily be a mental health professional without even going to school it was actually in the um there was a whole write-up there was a whole thing cartoon about the Shiva bachar of the family how he shows that he's a mental expert without going to school but we know that it's far from the truth it's extremely complex and there are many many aspects to mental illness just to mention one tiny example in current times when beginning of covid so right away everyone the world was going crazy and all different things were coming and the robotum had to deal with tons of different issues and the Marshall they put out on all the news forums and everything video over Dava cone and he was talking about even though he didn't say it straight out and then afterwards zamudham they explained it that many people were found themselves to be alone and there was problems there was issues of what of how and when could um um with it could cause mental people that have mental problems on Shabbos could they reach out to their sponsor all different types of things he had a whole video where he explained that it's much more relevant than people when people sometimes people until you're thrown into it or you see someone that you know is involved with it you don't realize how relevant these issues are anyway that's just the hakadama and what I'm saying is is that this of the ghetto Cleaves that's where a lot of the information comes from of course just to one um one more minute and then we get into the meat and potatoes over here basically mental illness has been dealt with in the times of the of of gazal um about earlier even in Tanakh so this is in Dr yitza process safe process excellent chapter about it there's a book from Ephraim Shiner which deals with the with mental illness in the Middle Ages and different materials from your shining that you use piece together with black edition contemporary problems has two beautiful chapters in volume two and in recent years this two sparm one's called nafshi vishalasi from of any psychologist or psychiatrists whatever and another safer called nephesh from another person who studied it and they just came in the past year which they also deal by Rich by Rick has all different aspects of mental illness a very very hot topic and of course in the book headlines remember David lichten scene he has at least in in some of the vowings he had some chapters related to this also anyway I'm not going to quote all the articles that they are out there that deal together Cleaves because it's Mama everyone talks about it and and part of the reason is is because I I found that a lot of people Everyone a lot of times in such especially in such a topic everyone relies on the next person and they they didn't really necessarily go back to the arhayashar to see the start we have the documents we have the story so I'm I'm gonna go according to the documents that we have in front of us okay so let's begin like this what's the story what happened so we open up the area sure and we'll see momentarily who wrote and why it's also important but basically is there was a healthy yid and they straight they stressed this right away it's not like he was he had any known mental problems beforehand the regular health libacher and his name was group itzik he was the son of laser nyberg of Mannheim the city Monument Germany and he gets married to his he basically gets engaged to a girl in um yaakov gunhausen okay from from Bunn also in Germany so they go to the house they go to the um however they don't we don't have the details of how they got engaged how they met but the kids are should have happened and the khasana was scheduled for 1776. in weird Mannheim the place where the Hassan lived now this is interesting because you see here something that in recent years people have pointed out we see they did do Hassan's happened in ello there is some type of Musa that some people stay away from making it affects the Yeshiva World because El was a special time where they wanted Yeshiva World to be um completely cut off from the world there are sources actually in recent years um after the war some Muslim said such a thing but we see here in Germany it was accepted and there's many many sources that in ello they did they were plenty of classes now anyway so this is the hassano they come now who comes along the family of the kalakam and the mahaber of the safer are yasher he's a good friend of the kala's father and his name is Aaron shimshen he comes from originally from Copenhagen and we'll see he's the main person in the whole controversy and we'll see why the kids are they come there everyone greets them blah blah blah the whole the whole story kids are they see the Hassan is a little looks a little tense okay so basically it turns out he was nervous his father promised them board that he's going to get a certain apartment and someone else is in it settled it seems to be calm fine anyway the marriage happens fine they're sitting on Friday night um Friday night after the khasana the sitting at the table and it seems he gave his drasha and they didn't let him they didn't let him finish it that's this guy points this out right singing in front of the Hassan's Russia which is actually the way I got to the ghetto Cleaves was many many years ago researching the topic of the drusha of the Hassan was the story of together Cleaves right away he he gave his drasha and he was interrupted so you see in Germany in 1766 they already was singing it okay anyway the kids are he's more happy and then someone his I guess his relative who was a doctor tells him don't eat this it's not good for your health this is the shimen rep shimen is he's an eyewitness account of something say that bottom line is um he eats what he's not supposed to eat we don't know what it is why he shouldn't have eaten we're not given any of this information and um we could sir what happens is the next morning they go look for him and they can't find the Hassan turns out he ran away he he left a Trum and he was Mikhail Shabbos and they found him nearby nearby bun by a guy and seems he wasn't himself and then they they found him and they brought him back and and according to the way we see it he he was okay and explained some something happened he was all again not clear exactly what happened and he took a certain sum of money he said pay the guy I told the guy if I could stay here I'll give him up his money but he knew the exact sum of money and everything basically fine and then he go back front so it sounds like there was some type of he must have had again I'm not an expert so just the words that are used in this thing some type of breakdown but how bad of a breakdown no no way to know okay a kid sir he comes back everything seems to be fine again this is how this Sherman is is writing up the story and um then it seems there was a fight between the the Kalo side and the Hassan side some money issue but they resolved it also you know though that those details are not good okay fine they're already a middle shiver Brothers It's decided that he's going to go back already to the kala's uh City fine so Kyle's father the Kyle's mother the kala and disruption they go back to the city where they came from he's there for a day or two and um he acts like the Hassan you know he gets the special Aliyah and everyone's talking and then after Shabbos he tells the father of the kala he just wants a divorce and okay talks to so so this the father of the kala calls and his friend rip shiman um Sherman says um whatever he talks to him and I'm fine then they now the city where they were in didn't have a rough to do a get so they decide where should they go right or get in the near in the areas near them and so it was decided they're gonna go to rebestral the rub of Cleves it seems the Hassan said that he wants to go anyway to England so it's on the way fine so they go to this RAV this will be strong the rav of Cleves who's an expert in gitting an old RAV and he writes um they meet him they have a whole conversation with him it's a few hour process the writing of the get which Waldorf actually had a video to show the whole process they they'll die and speaks to him this will be strong Ruby strollers expert dying and writing Gittin and everything speaks to him for a few hours he says different things and he seems to be completely normal this lesson there's no evidence of any breakdowns or anything or that he's having um thing he might have said certain things that that could be interpreted that something's wrong but fine and he goes he gives the get and Shalom Israel all of a sudden and he leaves England Hassan leaves England so it's a divorce so you think this is what what could go wrong all of a sudden the Hassan's family they were not there they didn't travel to the Kalos City and um the the father's like those nuts what are you doing he's my son and what's going on how did he do right again and what he's going to England obviously something's wrong what's going on and the president of monheim basically says what are you talking about everyone knows this guy had a mental breakdown in on Shabbos of his khasana and you're going to let him and he's saying that he needs to go to England and he's saying all these funny things it's clear he's a shaita that and and then and then as they say like and from the Iran it gets all labeled basically the Monarch then gives it over to the Frankfurt bezden and the frankfur beslin claims uh it's push it that this guy is a shaita the get wasn't good and how in the world do we throw of cleave give a get they have no idea he should have known now okay so what said is like this he wasn't told and he didn't know about this mental breakdown that happened on the Shabbos but if he would have known maybe he wouldn't have given the get but it's clear that he was not in his um at this time when he's talking he's even having even though he's claiming that he had a few hour interview with the Hassan he was he was he was not full faculties as they said okay fine eventually comes back after haltomo and um say they will get to see you about if there was a happy ending to the story or not now what happens like this first the first question is who in the world why is this um so so he said the frankfur bazden ends up getting involved and they say this cat is not good so we have the mono and bezen saying that that's not good the Frankfurt bezel is not good ah Ruby scroll gave the get and his expert again they say he didn't know he didn't know that he was a shy they didn't know the story of what happened on Shabbos the breakdown so what do they want to happen now they want to say he's still married his marriage never was a marriage what are they what do they want so marriage so it's clear already is the marriage the the breakdown couldn't have happened before as I said it seems he was he was good then then forget about it the point is that if something happened a mental illness Could Happen suddenly something happened and then he's not he's not able to give a get when he gave the get so even though he gave a get distribute within it's not good because he's a shy to giving a get that's the question so she's still a nation's fish yes that's that's what they want to be okay fine so so now let's just we're going to stop for a second and we have to understand this rib Aaron Copenhagen who in the world is he so he said he seems to be a friend he's there the whole time now he turns out he's the author of The safer aryasha which is going to be the whole story just to clarify you mentioned somebody before is this the same person his name is Aaron you said yes you're right we'll call to make it much easier you're going to call him shiman but his full name is Robert Sherman Copenhagen who is he so the kids are he's a Rel he's not a relative it seems he's just a good friend of the kalo's father he lives but he lives in their city and he came for the khasana and he seems to be a learning person why do I say he's a learning person because you could see is he put out this whole Hebrew aryasha which we're going to now see what it is it's basically rebestral of Cleves reaches out to all the elements says the get that I gave is valid I'm gonna see why it's valid and I the Frank for best then they're completely wrong in what they're doing and taco we're going to see the reasons why the daily Island at the time defend rebestral of cleaves and say the get is a good get and obviously the question is why um so the basically this book Dari Asha is all the documents and everything the whole everything everything that's going on who put it out this guy he seems to be a very learned person you could see from the way it's written and the language unbelievable language turns out for example in the right way in the beginning he said he quotes a whole list of things a whole list of taconists of bet of bezen that was accepted and a whole bunch of literature that once a bezel and passing something another business cannot butt in so if let's say when we stroller Cleaves said it's a good get a bezel of Frankfurt has no business getting involved mean to say one to be strong oh sorry not response well when we throw off Cleaves once we assume and we know and we're gonna see that he was a tremendous Tamil Hakim an expert in gitin then no other bezen from a different city could get involved this was an accepted Akana accepted in Europe so this this whole list and says before anything before mana and bezel has no business getting involved I the father says my son blah blah doesn't make a difference Frank verbizen has no business getting involved as an accepted takana and he lists two pages of all the police anyway turns out is he's a son-in-law and a talmud of Miller maybe who the Miller was at the time he was a son that but he was very close with all different Godzilla and again one of these good islands that only recently do we get to know more about him as Muhammad shalim published a whole volume of truvis of this would be the Miller we see was a guy named at the time in Germany and this is his son-in-law But Not only was he his son-in-law he was a safer the diner he was the cipher he was an expert in the procedures of the kitten and he was his Cipher and he wrote all the different things in the different choos and everything we're going to see more about that um Marshall one of the truvis um that written in the sugya to defend the get to say the get is good is um are you sure from Lemberg um sorry and he was a RAV also in Germany one of the daily elements at the time which also until recently we didn't have so much tire from him but he has a juvenile safer are hayasher not one of the there's a few dailymis people will see but there's plenty people that this is the only piece of literature that survived so this ID was a tremendous guidel in the times in Europe in Germany so he writes why am I trusting disruption who is EC says he's a sapphire Diner of the best of his father-in-law I've been contacted him for 30 years although I never met him I know he's on the kosher admire he's a tremendous and you could see throughout the volume in various truvis of the of the they say why are we relying on this person the answer is he's at and he's a philosophy so they all all the good islands of steinhardt and others they all they knew of him and they write variable of him that's why we rely on the Safari Usher because technically you say what do you mean he's got who is this guy and he's going up against a safer to get in a safer he's collecting all these letters against the Frankford business maybe he made up the whole story okay anyway that's just the point there fine why does he write the safer as a collection is because basically his name was being smear they were bad bad mouthing at the time and it was vicious he says specifically I'm not writing the safer which I'm about to say what to say for is um because I'm against Diana with Frankfurt I'm not I'm not against Melissa who is the head of the Frank Robeson I'm against one person and we'll get to see who that person is but this fight gets vicious and there's Patrick villain put up and signs and burnings and all different things in this fight okay what happens is like this as I said Ruby stroll of Cleves he ends up riding to the Dome to help him if shiman also does the and they get many good Island get involved so first before anything is who are the diamond valve just to mention in for two I'm going to give a list for a two-minute list of who to go down around so first I said remember who is he maybe sure lip says I have bezel and Cleaves so he's a talmud of one of the deadly island the generation before the classes he hasco and he was a known goggle he was a known person and he was a known expert in and we could see there's plenty of documentation that they write about him tremendous things the steinhardt and his truth over here on this topic says he was known as the kids are they and the shaggis so we're talking about an expert dying writing a get that's number one and that plays out very importantly that who's the frankfur business the Frankfurt Basin was about Romney Lisa who he dies in the middle of this controversy 1769. he's a Time removal and he ends up marrying the granddaughter of the bay shmuel um and it becomes a tremendous he becomes the rav of Frankfurt and the people of Frankfurt loved him he was a tremendous tremendous and we know a lot about him okay the other best person in the best then which is was was the was also one of the dailymot there's a lot about him he was a tremendous he wrote a bunch of farms some of them only came out recently on getting a condition for manuscript there's a there's a Yiddish Forum on the internet where they've been publishing different stuff and eventually they put it out of swarm in PDF so they published some of his material and in recent years and um it was a talmuduk as he writes of the play Yeshua he learned by the playing ashua for many years and others the kids are he could not become the avbezen of Frankfurt because it was a special takana in Frankfurt that if you're born in the city you can't become the oak anyway so him and from Lisa and their best in all together about another 10 people they were against the get and the man on beds but who's Pro look at so wicked sir there was a goddal one of the daily Island at the time of Joseph steinhardt one of the Greek Robin all different places Berlin and we could talk about it for hours we're not going to but the kids are he was one of the daily in the world of ashkenaz at the time he writes numerous chuvas Pro the get Huda was one of the main people in this topic in this he writes is one of the greatest at the time worldwide world famous he's involved with this story and he also says the gets good Rabbi active emden also writes a bunch of chuvas into this on the topic comes out to get his good Mark showed me Amsterdam Roberto hamburger with Yeshua which we mentioned the world safer playing levana rabdavar Berlin who's the brother of Berlin another brother-in-law of his known by you because I'm because regressive steinhard who I mentioned in the beginning he's also because of the Shia Berlin's family gets very involved and they're all pro the gift okay and the clothes of bride get some vowels and they're all pro to get of course they work with Dylan yeah you mentioned the clothes of Bride why don't you stop for one minute and just tell the audience what is the clothes of bread [Laughter] that's terrible problem one minute is impossible but basically the clouds of ride was this unique Elite group of people that was going on for years and years and years and people learned there in this close um Kabbalah and they learned plenty of niggler was learned there they behuda was originally part of this clothes Sans or not you are a kind sansu that you like to always point out that your connection to them but the Early Times answer who's not anything to do with although the khasi don't like to make him that he does have to do because he does he doesn't have to do but he definitely has to do Kabbalah he's in the clothes abroad and there's many good islands that were there some rabbanim that were robs and bottom in different cities of their times like they retire they would go here but we know many many different people are here that you'd learned here for a bunch of years it was an elite elite group of people they were but the dishes what happened is many who swarm that would come out for years they will come to these people to get asked some map they also played a role in various controversies as time went on lamasha later a little later than this controversy the fight of with hasidus they get involved and the question always is when was the full kayak of the claysia bride and until when it was and how it was supported these are questions not for now but the point is they were 10 gudalem of the clothes we know these signed on this that this get is good okay now the market submission also I mentioned okay anyway they were also known that were asked to get involved and they didn't want to get involved the Marshall deserves herzfeld who's the son-in-law of the planet Yeshua and the son of the planetshua another great govel in Germany the time where Barry laid they were asked to get involved well mice they don't get involved I suspect theory of mine is is that because the play the remnants was entered again and unless so maybe they felt they don't know all the details so it's not for them to get involved anyway that's just the theory no idea if it's true but kiss my kids are the kids are kids are now we said all the names of them why the issue of the gate they say is a shaita he had this breakdown on Shabbos he's a shaita nothing to talk about so now the question is why did the father let him go to to there so it could be the maybe it wasn't a complete shade to maybe they felt he's gonna get better okay but he's a shy too and and now the bezden of Frankfurt claims to have gotten tons of testimonies of people that said that this guy is a shaita okay but they never release it okay so now we have to go drop into this topic and very very briefly is what is a shaita and then we're going to get to what was the defense about and ready comes up and chass millions of times but we're how what's the definition of it says he rips his clothes so Shiloh is how many times does he have to do it does he have to do all three what a battery does other things that sound crazy and the Marshall the gemara brings in another thing he loses everything you give him okay anyway so what's this talking about Rashi ready says we want to know everywhere you find it is not a kinyan and he's not connect to uh um his sales or not sales is going to be dependent on this and this is a gemara that is a lot to discuss the Tyson from the baliatives also has a huge Erika and like everything else it's against what is the um is it dafka do you have to do all three what about if he does other things but there's a random and hopeless adus which is interesting and this is what they they point out why the ramen Waits hey this question comes up all the time but he says and then the ramam says so the ram sounds like that it doesn't have to be the snowy of the gemara anyone that it sounds like he's his brain is lost but obviously the problem is is how does one Define it you know um in the olden days used to be that when you were in Haider or Yeshiva your Rabbi will tell you and so it was used today it's obviously not politically correct to say such things but the word could have multiple meanings these one guy's gonna say someone says he's a brilliant guy and when I used to the rambam in this over there he says it's very hard to Define exactly what a shait is so between me and you this also plays out a role in the suggests of shaita and mental because a lot of times we have a gamara that says something and seems to be this is referring to some type of mental illness and requires explanation what it is okay for anyways again and but this is the gemara of what of discussing so why in the world would this get be good this guy had a mental breakdown and he might be a he's a sheiter so first like this number one what's thrown out and this is thrown out again and again throughout the documents which we mentioned already a bunch of times in previous episodes once it gets given by competent dionim there's no you can't come around and do something you just can destroy the whole system so definitely said right away well we know reviews is an expert dying end of discussion are you saying he didn't know information it doesn't make a difference okay so this obviously is a tough conversation and one has to go back to understand the sugya of the verbs for it and what Robin meant and why because we see sometimes in the previous episodes we also saw some people ignore this Harem and they said the God is not good in other in other terminals but over here this is again brought up okay La maisa many of the including Steiner they say push it was this dying an expert dying did he say that he had a long conversation with him did he notice anything about him being a shaita so even though he had a breakdown let's go with the worst case scenario he has a full-fledged breakdown at that time on Travis it doesn't make a difference right now he's not a shaita just because he has a breakdown that does not define him that he's not a shaita he could get better that's clear in Allah so so Le Marshall steinart says this and many of the past in this discussion they bring this point up and this obviously plays out in understanding what does it mean but even if it even if he does any of these things or if he does something else he ran away over here lamasho so he didn't go to a basic virus he didn't do anything so it's because we're going like the rambam and it's not after these things that are mentioned in gemara but still who said he that doesn't mean he's that he's saying just because someone does something it has a breakdown on time we don't pass on forever now another timer which already Rebecca vendum brings up but many of you don't say like this you Frankford best didn't say that you have a bunch of Ages that you test that you got you collected from a bunch of people you have to release the protocols and the testimonies that you got for us to see you're telling us that we have to rely on you you decided to get as possible and you tell us we have a whole bunch of reasons behind it but we're not telling you Caesar Bianca vemden says the Shag asari he says there's no such thing is based on when you make up sack we have to see your reasons you don't want to tell us your reasons we have no reason to accept what you're saying and it's unheard of unprecedented to do such a thing what you guys are doing that's what they all of them wrote and they wrote this into the business they wrote them into the in Frankfurt and Frankfurt kept on ignoring them they did not want to did not want to answer them said we have we have our reasons we have inside information and he's a shaita and that's it they didn't want to hear from anything problem is like this that the ready the shark is only say it doesn't a difference even if he had that breakdown he's not a shaita you're you're making a fundamental mistake so you got vs Aegis of people that saying is a shaita that's not enough of a reason it was the kids are the Le Marshall one of the great contentment valve doesn't show me Amsterdam so he was one of the big big um at the time involved in many of the different controversies ago you know so the the frankfur best was trying to get him to be on their side and they wrote him and he said one second tell me what you have let me see and they didn't want so in the end he went through this again he says no the gut's good and the same thing happened racer steinhardt also he tried to understand what's going on with the Frankfurt business and these are people we're not talking about people in the North Pole this is Germany this is all happening in Germany so a lot of them they're in Germany they know these Diana they know the frankfur bezen they're big cities they get along and everything so they want to know what's going on tell us La Mesa in all these truvists and that's what made these truvis very important as they deal with by rejos the suggest and alumnus of what's also maybe I said steinhardt and his beautiful truth is on the topic in here fine at one point he says Frankford best then you made a mistake and he brings a long list this time people make mistakes admit it that this is where Jason steinhard writes to them at one point you guys are wrong it's unheard of he's not a shaita he didn't want this breakdown happened once okay lamasha I told you that I mentioned earlier the safer play levana from one of the good Island at the time who we only know thanks to Mahoney and mohammish in the past less than 10 years ago a massive Trooper saver go play levana comes out the only thing we have from this rub beforehand was his chuvan together Cleaves now we have everything about him so he writes over here we even have his original chuva that he wrote for the god of Cleves right in the 1760s it survived its name University he says there's no such thing you have to tell us your reasons and you're not telling us the reasons now at one point something comes up very interesting in the course of this conversation and that is mental illness she says worst case scenario what's this how do you explain what happened with this Hassan is he had what's called Mara so Melancholia that's the the medical terminate term um again today there's tons of literature about it um but interesting like this I'm just gonna say one you deal relating to this this chuva this play levana says he loot with does he get this information from the maisotovio who was a great hash of Eid from the generations before was a medical doctor but also a tremendous timeia says such a thing now what's so it seems that it's a certain type of depression but it does but the person is if he has his faculties in many of the cases what about someone that has and he says he doesn't do all the michigans and all the different things but he just stays quietly he's a loner and he's not able to eat he's not as a conscience trade but if you talk to him he's able to talk he's not a shyta and he does you you wouldn't call him he doesn't he definitely doesn't have the stuff from the suggest and everything but even though one of the cases one of the examples of hanging might sound like this so he's he bites straight he doesn't know what it is but says the plane Lovato maybe that's right Shabbos but then he's been saying there now how do we know he's Mercedes because this bow sorry this author of the gift will be strong interviewed him for a few more I think it was three hours he's discussing with him he said the whole time is there he's never acting up he's not now this is what do you mean we traveled he was completely sane he didn't do anything that was acting out so he's not a shaita the kids are um interestingly enough we find people that had depression and they were beyond beyond prolific and they remained daily Island just to mention a lot of times we have today order biographical accounts of different solar Marshall we have a yakavendan a famous famous autobiography of his different times in his ordinary he writes he's depressed and I think he was depressed the whole time he says very strongly these marriage career type things but we see he was a guy named was prolific he was everything okay we have his travels certain times it was very rough and his travels and he writes about himself that he had Mars higher at certain points in time he overcame it and merge cover it sounds clear it's possible to overcome lamisa we know and they discussed by Rico we see people were able to overcome it they had it and they they overcame it anyway so the worst case scenario is that was the case with this fellow anyway the night where he says a lot of different things I mentioned up till now he has married and again we're not going to go through all the different things over here the same thing the shaggis Arya it's givaldik history the kids are as I said at the time um were very very strong um that it's a good gift I mean many of them they're mentioned over here just to mention two different things um with the two two and then we'll go to the last part of the story and that is like this um in the safe area which is which is a fascinating Hebrew to learn through on in this topic so the night view talks about the charges are you yeah and he says what do you mean he says who's that the shark is so once the Shang sorry got involved him he's actually I think the first person really wrote the truva to say that it's not a problem and I mean a long chuva not a three-line chuva that's already something okay anyway um that I'm either brings in the story of this of the the get of the anapolos that we spoke about if he brings that in and other they'll also bring that in here and just one other quote because it's a fascinating quote and it became famous sort of was a darshan he gave rashes a few times a year in his kihila in Prague which was a massive kilo and and the drushas um fastening drushas and recently a year or two ago many many the Russia some were published in different places but some gestures were published some were sent or not cancer came out in a beautiful Edition and in there is that Russia he gave Mammoth the middle of the geta Cleaves Tamil so you're going to say why are we getting the people involved why is everyone mixing in anyways at one point says he tells the Killer he says he says I'm going to tell you a story that's going on right now and he talks about his get and it gets good and he says his followers and then he says like this I hope they're going to come around he says they don't understand the lies that they're saying you're going to get kosher and he says it could be he says we finally make mistakes and um it's a hill Hashem all the different cruising that came out because of it which we're going to discuss momentarily it's not like the tremendous Hashem and I'm being mepharison the header of this woman is no problem and it's a good Hector he said he made it his business to discuss it in the in the Shabbos Russia how many people were at this Russia so you never know right interestingly enough when the that's the I was reading it based on the way the wrote the Josh was published more recently but tonight Milda sent to this of shiman who's publishing in the arayasha there was a thousand people at this Russia when he sent it over any there's other fascinating things in this Russia but the point is that he said against the best in the Frankfurt okay so obviously there's also but not for us right now anyway okay the kids are the point is that the Dilemma at the time will reach the conclusion based on the London that this is not a problem for all different reasons okay what about Frankfurt what's going on here this is why were they so strong against and not listening to what these were writing into them so it's very hard to know and for years we did not know and not only that we know that the protocols and all the different things around the Frankfurt bezen we have what's called pinkasim there's pinkism of besdens and pinkism of Frankfurt and Frankfurt has many different documents that survive even today all the stuff relating to the best of this controversy it seems was burnt on purpose they didn't want anyone to know why they reached the conclusions but they add Sophia Mayhem they remain strong that they were right and all of them were wrong and they didn't want to even say why let me say it's not like if they would have said why maybe people would have agreed that they didn't want us to okay fast forward to the 1880s and 1890s and a book comes out in German umharowitz and it seems and here so he wrote a chapter about uh Lisa and he obviously has to have a chapter about the geta Cleaves and basically when you read this chapter it's clear that he's coming to say and he's from Frankfurt and he happens to be he's a tremendous he married the youngest daughter of Darkness he's coming out of the Frankfurt city is right someone wrote into him it seems the letter says are you talking you're going against the safe are you you're going against everyone we come from because tell you the truth I have a document that survived the whole thing and he publishes a whole document in his truvis mate Levy which comes to explain what the best in of Frankfurt said and this is a document written he says this is the hand he says I'm it's 10 pages approximately and it's the documents written by samas why they were accepting the why they said they get is not good and it's clear is that they were they held that he was a shyte already from the beginning okay the problem as I said it doesn't really help us so much so we have that so it doesn't matter as hell but they said even if he was even if he did have a breakdown then it doesn't make a difference as long as the restroll says that means having a conversation with him or we know that he's better not only that turns out less than a year later because of all pressure he ran away to to England turns out at one point he comes back and he's all show me Israel so the mushroom Steiner says what's going on he got better so fast he says such a line as Israel what are you talking about answer is he people get better fast he wasn't so bad and he wasn't even convinced that it was such a breakdown in the first place the answer is because he came back okay um anyway um so this Matthew Levy has this whole arijos and he says that they were fired you don't listen to all these are wrong and not interestingly enough they don't they don't talk about why they're not releasing the reasons and they don't talk about um why they're not releasing the reasons and they also don't talk about the whole day we're given this job from the Mona investment and that's it okay and and he's a shayta look at this they also also goes through this okay anyway interesting to see now um um just a few short ideas and then and and and we'll conclude like this basically like this um in this Frankfurt so mati Levy is published so in 1979 the Marty Levy is republished by his great grand by his grandson or something or hash of you and um what he does is he publishes original Patrick Villa that were published in Frankfurt during these fights and if you look at them they're vicious they're vicious against the gadylum The Vicious languages in this thing and they're saying terrible things they say terrible things about the muscle we said the mark they burnt not only that it's clear they burnt the once the the clothes of bright Tenga daily Island get involved they burnt beforehetsi and the base defenses after minha they burnt all these documents this is getting involved this is clear I don't think that you know after he gave a clap in the bema we're going out to burn basically what happens a lot of times like Frankfurt is not a little it's a massive City and it was a very proud City and basically they again could be they have their reasons behind it but the point was is that they it was these cruising they got around and they published them where this anacle they were discovered again and he publishes them in his reprint in the 1979 Edition fascinating thing fascinating idea come across this random Rebel yashiv gets a present from this rabara Horowitz he gives him his his mati lady of isaida thanks him very much everything he says I opened it up and I see that you publish the um this story and you want to be Matchstick the mice or the president of Frankfurt and that they were right okay fine so he says you're going against the Greek limited time if the he says these are the Giants of the time it says okay but then you go ahead you're taking a stand by publishing this documents but then this is worse you're publishing the cruising that they're going again that was published against this is your love customer service you should not my advice is you should not even though you're doing your kinner the kids that you should not have published these um cruising that you published which are vicious against the you Daily Item at the time they were publish at their time is the different story but I'm saying is that I hold it wasn't even the good Island the best and didn't um order these cruising to be written how do I know this so the problem is like this there's a vicious that's going on over here and and how do you explain it literally you're getting um letters and letters at the time and these are people you they know each other and the frankfur bezen is being very strong and stubborn about this what's up so the answer I suspected and reading once in a while it comes up that there's other people involved there's not only the xylem this seems to be the case I heard this many times from emotional evidence that a lot of times the daily Island in a particular fight their computer so I began but then people get involved that also might mean well but as they say not not that they're not they don't have the special character and what I find is like this it sounds like the parent the the various um as column in the siber they were causing problems okay this is a theory are you sure it sounds like he's saying it because he's not taking it out but he says something he's constantly saying against who seems to be a tremendous okay how do I know this is that a document was published from a destler um in the desktop collection I mentioned a few times and basically the partnersim of the kihila of Frankfurt seemed to have written to Amsterdam to show Amsterdam's parent assembly said you should convince your wrong that this girl is not a good getter how long I'm gonna kill her show them we're not going to get involved our Rob passing something and he holds it gets not good again we go without ROV we're we're not Mr Mr and these in these type of topics with the Frankfurt what happens like this the Frankfurt um this is not the first case that the Frankfurt has got him got involved in things just right before have there was a fight in college throughout the time the the tremendous fight with their business clear when you see all the stuff and the thing he was the brother Frankfurt and they're so proud of it and he ends up he leaves and he couldn't get him back and that's got them are involved and they don't let him back in well where's it coming from the people that were involved there were Shalom they were for the glory of the greatness the shoulders your Frankfurt so it could be that that's what was going on here anyway okay just to mention very briefly to Messiah like this number one is in 1896 uh you'd reviewed the Lebowski he sees what the matalavi says and he writes what are you talking about you're you're saying the whole story completely in the favor of Frankfurt it's not like you're saying that's not how the story was okay now some people say there was a happy ending that ends up being because and comes back and I said already when custom came back it sounds like it's completely normal but they say is they remarried this is a story that a lot that in Frankfurt the story is brought down that's what happened it's very unclear to say such a thing because the arau Yasha comes out even later and he doesn't say such a thing he I I don't I and there'll be other sources at the time but okay he has a kabbalahar which is a hash of a yid that they did get married okay they got remarried okay now um and just they say who ends up coming to brother Frankfurt after so there's a legendary story that the flood he's also wanting to tell him at the time it seems he wanted to write a chuva that the get is good but his pen kept on that working and lamisa because of that he got the job and to Messiah relating to the story relating to this last story is that they made the the asconim of the city of Frankfurt made a cabal a maida takano that denied behuda no family member of his is allowed into the City and any job in the city anything to do with this city because they were so upset how he wrote These vicious letters and they are incredible letters to see taking them to task and wow vicious letters wrote um and so what's interesting is like this a lot of times people like to make sure all this we're concluding with this thing so there's letters of a muscle mass right after this controversy to different and this whole thing with the letter of the night write some um the letter you got my safer back and forth and in the letter I see this interesting line and um says I got you safer in terms he says but I don't know um thank you for sending everything great um I don't know if you could bring a new safer my Trooper safer into your City without a issue of the part of some of the city I don't know what's going on here what the partnership of the city have to give Esure to Allah of that city of Frankfurt and tell yeah you could buy the night it sounds very funny the answer is and my suspicion is his fouls they because of what they were so upset they made a takana you can't have anything that was the reason it means is they didn't want to let even the sparma if they gave him in the end the story was they gave it is not in there maybe that's even invited they didn't know that okay anyway point is this is a tremendous that racked the world at the time and the suggests of shayta or come out in in this in the different shoes if one looks up online arayash I want to learn fascinating through this relating to this sugya but before we close up Rabbi Brett has to turn around and pull out a safer that he wants to share with us okay so we we mentioned in this episode a safer called my situvia the misatovia is a medical safer a lot of other interesting things written by uh and um so what's interesting is who is this Mysterio so a book came out mamas recently called misatovia Venice 1708 tuvia on medicine and science that's a collection of Articles and basically is like this is born in 1652 dies in 1729 he went to medical school in Italy and he was a Rob sorry he was a doctor for different he ends up living in ushalayim but this became an encyclopedia published in 1708 and it's used people use it as a lot of fascinating materials in the mycitivity which is relevant even today and he knew a lot a lot of the information of the time one wants to read about him he could read and David Ruderman has a beautiful chapter about him in his book um called Jewish thought and scientific discovery and the and the last thing is is in this in in this book is a collection of different articles all about him that came out literally in the past two years um okay that's all I want to mention okay thank you very much wow my head is spinning with all that information I'm gonna have to listen again at least once to get even some of the information into my brain but amazing hope people listen till the end and appreciate all the different facets of the good Island that were mentioned and I'm sure on each one of these good Islands you could do a full episode of them and their kahilas and their cities and the she was they were involved in but we'll have to leave it here for now they're just little teasers to taste of information and we should get back together very soon thank you