Taking Torah Everywhere: How Rav Moshe Schwed Built the Beis Medrash in Your Pocket

I used to be surprised. I'm I'm no longer surprised when I'm in Lakewood and I meet somebody says, "I love listening to Sherman Olaf. Who do you listen to?" And they'll tell me, "Oh, listen to Rosner Rab Liuit or someone else who's au." And then I'll be in Tene and they'll tell me, you know, you know, my favorite mag is the mag. So, it's being able to to see how Torah is a unifier. Torah. So with Shus coming up, we're doing some extra focus here on Shark Tank on matters of Tama Torah. And it's a great honor to have Schwed who's responsible for a lot of Torah being learned all over the world at this very moment and and every single day, six days a week. So, thank you so much for joining us and welcome. My pleasure. It's actually seven days a week, even though we are using technology, but soon as Shabas is over, they're on the apps. Great. So, let's um start with a little bit of background. kind of tell us about where you're from, what your background was, and sort of the the quick life story up until the aldaf came into existence. Here we go. I grew up in Muny, New York. Um went to high school and post high school bas in Long Beach, New York, MFA, Long Beach. Those who aren't familiar with the map and geography, Long Beach is a island right near the five towns. And from there I spent 5 and a half years learning in Eritis in Yeshiva Brisk with getting married in between around two years single another three three and a half years married moved back to the states joined B magavoa in Lakewood New Jersey spent quite a few years learning there in Kell did my last couple years while I was still in BMG in the morning I was running a second seder program at a base major in Monty New York. Um, and then in 2018, August 2018, I took on this incredible job that I'm grateful for till today. When I took it on, I didn't know what it was or what it would be of running these platforms. So, what was the very earliest sparks? How did this come about? What was what were the what were the early origins? So the early oranges of this job specifically um is that the U always had an online Torah site U Torah. There a small Rabbi Mosha Elephant who runs cash at the U saying an online Dyomi share besides for his regular share that he says every morning still says every morning in our park near his home. At that point, somebody at the OU had gotten a grant, a nice a significant gift to build out the Torah platform to add to it. And Rab Elephant, who's actually my father-in-law, we could talk about in a second. You know, I I think I say I have the job despite him being my father-in-law, as you'll soon understand, because he called me um looking for somebody who may be able to do something to bring this idea to fruition. So I said to him, "Maybe I could." And he says, "You probably could, just I can't hire you because of nepotism at the OU." To make a long story short, I joked that they had to change the constitution at the OU. And they hired me. When I was hired, it was 2018, the end of 2018. This was around 15 months before the upcoming CMAS of the 13th cycle, which took place in January 2020. So this is around 15 months out and the goal was let's figure out what we could do what we could build and have it ready to launch by the same hash. That's what happened. Wow. And so just tell us briefly you know there are other apps out there that have Torah content and Shirim. So what makes Aldaf special and unique? So that's an excellent question. Um I would think the primary factor is that we are yomi focused. That means you open up any one of our apps. We focus on content that's consistent, that rolls over from day to day, and the apps are all set up that way. That's number one. Number two, we're focused on highly curated content. That means we're only going to put on content that we feel is high quality and something that a user base will really gain from having it on our platform in the way we provide it. And most of these yumis, let's talk about dafomi for a second is the actual dafy yomi here. But what we've worked to create is supplemental content around the daf. So you'll have the opportunity not just to learn the daf, but to learn Jewish history that comes from the da or you'll be able to have a short preview, a short review on every daff, a short piece of ala on every daff, various modes of review on every daff. And even in the dafomies themselves, there'll be different style dafomies that we've presented. And that's essentially what separates us from the other Torah apps platforms that are out there. That's very interesting. And before you had this job, just thinking about the relationship of Torah and technology, you mentioned the wonderful Yeshua brisk, which is obviously a prestigious Yeshiva, but I I doubt there are guys in the base med there sitting there with their laptops and their correct me if I'm wrong. I I don't think so. I don't think there are any computers anywhere in that building. So, can you tell us a little bit more about your um relationship with technology beforehand and uh and was it something that you were using and and and thinking about before this opportunity came up? So, you're right. I don't think at least when I was there almost 20 years ago, there were no people sitting in the base measures with their laptops. However, even probably in Brisk and in BMG where I live here in Lakewood, many people sit with their computers and are using computers to assist their learning. certainly wasn't. The reason why I took this job wasn't because I had a fascination with technology and I felt like this is my calling to be involved with technology. However, I'm somebody who's passionate about learning myself. Personally, I'm passionate about giving other people the opportunity to learn. And I'm sure this is what we're going to talk about more people who especially who have left the coast bes. And as we joked somewhat before we got on the call, there are people who are using technology, you know, with their flip phones to call all kinds of phone programs. And that's the sort of technology also, right? That more than they were doing 50 years ago or even 30 years ago when dial became a thing of technology. So, you know, even though technology has evolved and now we're on apps and smartphones and AI and all that type of stuff, right? I think we've seen the world you know, from some communities less, some communities more using technology to help themselves and help the communities grow in Toron. That's very interesting. And so, given the fact that you weren't particularly interested in this topic, what was it that caused you to say, "This is really a job for me." What was it about yourself and your personality that was just like a cool job? Uh, and it sort of attracted your eye because, uh, the the Torah technology piece was not something that was like driving you hard beforehand. So I think what what fascinated me was the opportunity to be able to bring highquality Torah content that may be let's talk about there probably were various that were in different places around the internet but somebody who didn't have the skill set the time the drive to be able to search and find the sh that works for him either wasn't learning because he didn't have the time and the drive to find it, right? Or even if he was learning, he wasn't learning at the level that he could be learning. So being given the opportunity to bring all these various urim and then adding supplemental content to take either people who weren't learning at all or learning very little to bring them to learning or people that were already learning and give them an opportunity to grow in their learning. That was something that I found very very interesting. And and when I I was primarily brought on to be the the creator of the content, when I say creator, not necessarily that I'm the one creating and making the contagation and myself, but do some of that, but also find what's out there and bring it all together from the content perspective much less from a technology perspective. Obviously, as the project has gone on, even from the beginning, you know, I've gotten much more involved in what's needed to allow the technology or allow the user to engage with technology better. But that that wasn't the primary focus of why Schweed was brought on because he's like some guru in you know apps and and websites. I I joke around that when I took the job I probably couldn't tell you what UX UI actually stood for. Um obviously I learned it very quickly and uh here we are. So if I understand correctly, you basically saw potential to build a sort of base medish with tremendous scale and tremendous potential for harbab and you're like I want to jump on that. And if I got that correctly, is that also sort of something that drives your father-in-law who's been giving this online even though he comes from maybe the communities that are less gung-ho about the internet? Is that the approach here? Absolutely. You'd ask my father-in-law. Yes, he certainly has been using the internet to spread Torah, you know, probably from the from the beginning with the OU. I think they actually where are we? 13th cycle, 12th cycle. He probably started saying the dafomish for the OU online at the beginning of the 12th cycle. We're the 14th cycle now. So that's going back, you know, over 20 years, right? Actually, it's funny. I remember when I was in high school, so we're now going back maybe 15 years. So I had garinas and I would actually with elephants because it was very clear. It was gave you the sort of the basics and it was online easily accessible at a pretty solid website going back to the standards of those days. So certainly I have a lot of couto for that as well. If you have time for a fascinating story regarding elephants early online. So the story starts very recently where a fellow let's call him Jeff reaches out to me sends me an email. He would love to speak. Could we speak? He said sure. But before he says, you know, we actually meet, he sends me a link to an article. He says, "Please read this article. Before we speak, just get to know a little bit about me." So he sends me the article. I open it up and it's an article about a fellow from Marietta, Georgia at the Jerusalem Marathon in 2020 where him and his running partner are making a simas because they ran through Shas. Now, what's the backstory? the backstory is which he filled me in a lot of details when I met him. We're talking about a person here. Um I don't know what his level of religious observance is involved. That could be the president of a conservative sh. So I'm not talking about somebody this he told me himself. He didn't have a Jewish education past fifth grade in a conservative day school where he grew up. And this is somebody who told me that in 2008 he found Rabba Elephant on podcasts and he listened to the three BAS Basra then he stopped. Then in 2013 um he had a friend who also lived in Marietta Georgia. They decided they were both they both running they they were runners marathon runners you know as a hobby on the side decided let's let's learn the dav and they both used various online shirim that were available then and made a shasar in 2020 and he reached out to me this is probably in 22 23 maybe and he says ever since all daf launched I've been learning daily dafy on aldaf and then we launched all pasha he says I've been learning daily para on all pasha And when all launched, I've been learning daily Mishna on Mishna. And at that point, we posted on all pari calendar for we was a new cycle starting then. And he says, I'm starting to to do nafomi as well. And I'm reaching out because I want to share my my thanks and he wanted to make a donation also to the platform. And I become, you know, very close to him since then. I actually went to meet him um a few months ago and we had a nice conversation but one of the things and he's showing me what else he's doing. He's learning on the app daily Kitser. It's incredible what somebody who had no yeshiva background. I don't know even what his level of religious observance is um certainly not living in a regular mainstream community. The amount of Torah that this person is learning with technology is incredible. But when we were talking so one of the last you know pieces of the conversation went as follows. When I asked him, I said, "Jeff, you know what about all this learning? You know, how does it affect you in what way? Like where does it hit you? What does it do to you?" And he says to me, he says, "The truth is, we live in crazy times. We live in challenging times. Learning Torah calms me. It settles me. It makes me feel grounded." So like this is somebody who didn't go to yeshivas and hear, right? you know the the muser and the the from the mashia telling him you know how Torah is something which is new and it's something which is so important this is somebody who actually is feeling the effects of what Torah is supposed to do to a person right it makes a person it changes their life and it makes them feel feel different sometimes we have to pay attention to it and be conscious of it and we can't always feel it but that's something which was incredible to me wow that's beautiful and I'm sure I I hope that you're cataloging all these. I'm sure you have a lot of other amazing aldaf and all Torah feedback stories. That's really beautiful. And so when you talk about the Torah being grounding and having an online app that allows people all over to be grounded so I'm thinking now to the fact that you launched this during the uh sashas which was a very beautiful and wonderful event and obviously a new a new product has buzz and excitement around it and then the pandemic hit and completely changed our lives at least for uh definitely forever but in a very drastic way for a few solid months. So what was that like to have all this online infrastructure all set up and ready to go when people weren't able to access their normal inerson share? It's so interesting because like you mentioned, we planned all this technology without any plans of a pandemic, you know, for people who were doing their regular thing. And then as the pandemic hit, like you said, when closed down and there weren't opportunities, you know, for people to actually learn with their regular schedules and their regular kusas and people had more time to learn, right? So, it really goes back to what we were saying before. People who didn't have as much time to learn had more time to learn. People weren't learning at all. They found themselves connecting to Torah and it was what what else can we say besides you know was Hashem preparing the ra before the Makkah. So when we think about Torah and technology obviously technology has a whole host of issues and discussions around it but specifically with regards to learning and technology how do you think about that? Do you think that it's that someone should try to avoid using their phone and their devices for learning? Is it is there some other way that you think about this when people talk to you about the um the way that there this app and other similar technologies play into their relationship to talent? So I I don't think that there's a gen there's an answer to this because I think every single person um has to approach this differently whether it depends culturally where they are and but even more more on a personal personal level right every person has to really understand you know what they need to help them grow and become closer to Torah learning that means in every aspect of life right there's always going to be right and Sometimes for that person is so in other words in the general way it's ranked in the world this could be but for you right it's and vice versa for somebody else something could be but for you that's so if you take you want to talk to learning the most purest level of course if we were able and if every person I think is able to sit and learn in the best mattress the whole day right like and doesn't have to work and doesn't have any worries, anything to think about, right? But that's not how Hashem created put most of the people in this world and we have many things going on and many things that we have to do. So finding ways you're able to use your time properly, set aside time to focus on Torah study. If you're able to get a kusa and learn in person, of course, I don't think anybody will tell you that it's better to learn online. I don't think anyone tells better on a telephone right than than to sit with the face to face and learn and with of people right with the way Torah was given right you know with with a Torah you know the way the ones who went through the yeshiva system know what a bis looks like but with that all being said right a person has to really be honest themselves how they could learn maybe some people don't need it every single day My me personally, you know, as much as I I run all these apps, I don't listen to a I'm not a committed daily app user for this year, I'm on the app, you know, checking things out. But as an app user, I have a kusa I learn with foromi on the app. Sometimes I'm in the car, you know, I want to hear something extra. I want to hear how certain niche said the gum. So I think I don't think there's a, you know, one clear-cut cookie cutter answer for everybody. I mean, I also think it's important, you know, again, I don't know if this is what you're driving at, but technology has been at has been adopted differently at different stages in different communities in Cloud Israel, right? It may look different in Lakewood than it does in Williamsburg. It may look different in Williamsburg and Lakewood than it does in in Tene. that each community I think I don't want to use the word struggles with but but deals with the challenges of technology at various levels um you know it could be one community is dealing with at what age the kid should have access to the smartphone whether it's in sixth grade or nth grade in other communities it could be what what age we give the kid the cell phone but everyone deals with it I think I would say most of the world recognizes technology is here to stay technology is a tool that could be used well and it's just a different approach of how you approach it. I I think think that most people listening to this podcast fully understand are taking advantage of technology to grow their Torah learning and some people even in the secular world have sort of criticized or pointed out that the internet is very conducive to very sort of addictive short form shallow types of content. I I'm not so sure I agree with that. I mean, it's clear that certain platforms, for example, podcasts, which is one of my favorite, or a site like Substack, are built in a way, even though they're online, to create a deeper engagement, a more focused, long form, nuanced type of experience. So, how do you think about that balance when you're sort of designing these apps and and creating a a space which I don't know maybe some people need a a three- second Tik Tok clip of Dili while they're waiting for the dentist but but but in general we I think both agree that Torah is something very deep and needs focus as much as possible so how do you uh grapple with that actually for those who may be familiar with he has different names different online names you know on Twitter I think he calls himself awkward bucker I think on YouTube he's like green spans mid or something but he he had this parody of the rabbi gulper dafomi shir it was a one second shar in a gulp rabbi gulper was the mag but um again I I don't think there's a I think every person really has to know themselves and know what they need and knowing yourself also helps when you have friends that can be honest with you when you have rab that can be honest with you and know what your strengths are you know where your strengths are for one person it could be he only could handle short form content if that's all he can handle Great. For some people, they should strive and can handle long form content. But the short form content is when they're biking or when they're in their downtime, right? Or that's their when they're you talk about a melo. What does Torah mean? It means something different for everybody, right? So there's a porra and there are times when I could be learning Torah even when I'm on vacation, right? Even when I'm on the couch relaxing, right? the biggest gadola is they ever take a break from thinking and learning and their minds were totally occupied even they had different levels of right the third week of the winter's man right second seder it wasn't the same as the third week of manim for the same god is right every person has to their different times and different um different times at different stages in life also right how you going to be able to learn I think it's it's staying grounded staying focused just making I don't mean this is a scary word you know where am I am I am I growing where was I 6 months ago where do I want where do I want to be in another six months and taking all those details into account so to answer your question when we put out content we don't like guard it in a way we want you to be learning this way so we're only going to be creating content in this way obviously when you create content you create it you know for the for the greatest common denominator, you know, in a certain sense, you know, obviously you're going to create content which might be for a small population, but in general, you know, that's usually how how things work, but I think we're not here to guide and teach people, you know, what and how they should be consuming content. That's very interesting because I guess again there is some correlation between the media and the message and sort of the forms and the the length and and certain things about the product design maybe sort of nudging people to focus a little more and not you know offering them different uh distractions or ways to to to ping off. Is that something that you guys try to do to even just like on the in the continuum between focused and distracted that you guys try to design in a certain way? I wouldn't say catchly. My personal philosophy is I feel like the less you try to tell people how to do things, the more they'll focus on what you're actually giving them, right? So if you're giving them a half an hour, right, without telling them or even intimating to them this is really the better way to do it, you know, then maybe they'll do it, right? But we also have to have the share which is 16 minutes, right? Because either that person only has 16 minutes to do the share. There are people who use it prepare. There are people who use it um to review. So I don't think I don't think it's in our um planning like how we want people to engage. What we want is what we want is people should be moving up in their engagement in Torah content. That's really the goal. Identify where people could use help and assistance in the Torah learning and get to those people and see them grow and become more engaged in their Torah learning. more engaged to mean something different for every person. But I think that's really the focus. Got it. So there's a an approach a very important approach of males in Miden. And is that something that you like track in your data as far as like how the users are doing and and and seeing their user journey, their user lifespan, all these terms that you probably know a lot better than I do? Is that something that you guys are actively involved in? The answer is not enough. not enough because like every nonprofit startup, you know, we're growing and that's something we probably could be more involved in and maybe beneficial to people. So, I would say we're not enough, but we should be and could be doing it more and helping people more. Got it. And on that point, it's an interesting uh um way of of classifying where you are. You're a growing entity in a in a in a difficult space, meaning to build a really great product, a technology product takes a lot of work. And I think maybe some of the lay people might underestimate like you go into Spotify, you go into YouTube, it seems so easy and so smooth and so fast and so convenient and there's so much work and so many resources that are poured in the other end that the user can have such an easy experience. Is that something that people uh take for granted? How do you guys make sure that you're providing a a a product that really works seamlessly and and and and represents the values of Torah and is not going to have people saying, "Well, why bother with this buggy thing? I have Spotify and YouTube that has that film share and that work a lot better. That point is absolutely correct. Staying on top of technology. This I could say dealing with Android apps is a lot more difficult than iPhones because iPhone the iOS system is one system and it's the same. Doesn't matter what kind of iOS phone you have. It's more or less the same. Androids there are all different types of operating systems in each phone. It's something which is much more difficult to deal with. No, I don't think people recognize and understand what it takes. There are a lot of different options out there. People sometimes get used to something, you know, they're getting something consistently for free, you know, and they may expect things and ask for things in ways that may be like puzzling to me. But I really try to take a hands back approach and, you know, try to understand or not judge people, you know, for what how they expect things and what they want and what they're asking for. I think if you're focused that this is not Moshu or anyone that works with me. This is something. This is Hashem's Torah and I have the opportunity and this to be able to bring tens of thousands of hours of Hashem's Torah down to this world which we all know the Ramall writes and Dashem right uh I don't recall offhand the exact language that he uses but along the lines of without paraphrasing the greatest and most essential connection that a person has to hashem is through Torah through limitra. So being able to literally bring the Torah down and connect people up is something which I look at as a tremendous opportunity. But of course it has its challenges. It has its daily challenges like we like we started with. It's seven days a week. It could be it could be people want their content especially if they get used to it. Now do you want to know if we went if we went away could somebody this really goes back to the original question. There are people right who are maybe using the platform and if we disappeared right they'll have to acclimate and figure out you know how to learn. Let's let's use the Mifa Gamara, right, as an example, right? The Mifa Gamarra for all those who aren't familiar with it is an incredible incredible work that the back of the Gumar has. You could learn a suga literally from the back of the Gumarra. Right? So now there are people if the MFA wasn't around that have to take more time and they're motivated and they could learn a sugara. the system may make it easier for them, maybe a crutch for them, which maybe they shouldn't use, but that's not our discussion. But if you moved it away, they would do it themselves. But for I would think for the majority of the people, when you remove the easy access that they have to Torah learning, they they they wouldn't access it, right? So that's what we have to stay focused on. We're giving people easy access and I think today's generation mostly most people need especially ones who are not grounded and not focused spending hours a day in the best medish need an easy way to connect the Torah and learn. That's very interesting and one of the things that you alluded to is the financial model and the uh you know these big platforms have come under some very intense criticism and the fact that we love the free content comes at a price and I think one person put it very sharply. He says if if everything is free then you're the product and you're being sold and your attention and your data and your advertising uh potential. So how do you overcome that when people on the one hand they want it to be free and then they want the product to be great and they don't want to be bombarded with advertisements having their data stolen and all that stuff. So what gives? So go back to what you started with in this in this segment of like startup. We started with seed money from donors who gave enormous significant amounts of money to get these products started. As with most startups, you eventually have to shift and evolve into a stable company and business which has to work on revenue, right? Not just a startup seed money. So part of that is and something that I've taken on is direct fundraising, right? Engaging with users who use it and it's a piece it's education. Some of them just have to be educated, right? To run this platform cost X because this is what's involved running the platform. And most of them once they understand they realize the significance that it's having on their own lives right and they don't they don't look at themselves like you know like another institution that's coming to them and asking them for for funds they want to contribute and they're happy to contribute so it's I think it's it's a lot of education people have to understand uh I think it's with um you know most anyone who's involved in the nonprofit space I think your success and it's not only nonprofit but we talk about nonprofit If you're able to, I'll use the word sell, but it's not really selling. You're able to to invite people to understand why your product is a product that they need, they're going to buy in. And buy in can mean buy in in the for-profit world and buy in can be in the nonprofit world. Whatever their buyin is, whether it's because they themselves are growing, feels important to help others grow in learning. That's that's the way you got to do it. Got it. So when you're continuing to tweak these apps, improve them, rolling out new ones as you mentioned, I guess we just clarify that started with Aldaf and now there's also Al Para and Ala and Al. Uh if I'm missing any current ones, let me know. But so as you're going through this process, what are some of the features, innovations, the you sort of brought to the product that you're sort of most proud of? I think personally what I'm most proud of is being able to take subjects that may not be learned that much, right, and make them available to be learned in a way that they weren't being learned before and they're more accessible to the world. Let's take Mishna for example. Mishnaomi wasn't something that most people Yeah. And so we have all par Mishna and all which was launched recently. So the old Mishna platform was launched when the last Mishnaomi cycle started. I would give a shout out to art world because they were the ones who approached us that they plan on sort of reviving the Mishnaomi cycle and they've constantly kept it up with giving our free Mishna and lots of advertising. But we took the opportunity to work with them, you know, and join them in a certain sense of creating our own app. So people who are in tuned and involved in the Mishna Yomi cycle should be able to learn. I really just mention now for those who are going to be listening to this podcast um you know within the the next couple days of when we record this May 15th starts. Now the season that we're in after PES summer season, some people learn pyavos. Most people learn pyavos, you know, they may glance at a mission or two in the peric of the week. Maybe their rabbi says a shir or there's a women's gathering in home's backyard, right? Where they have a speaker talk about something interesting that's in that week's per. But now you have an opportunity with the Mishna cycle with thousands of people across the globe to learn in seven weeks cover all the right you can listen to Liuit and Rabb Resnik and some of the other mides that we have on the app. So, if you haven't downloaded the app, and I'll get to this at the end of the podcast also. You go to the app stores and download all the apps. I'm sure Yako will have the links to our link tree in in his show notes. But that's one example. Usi something yomi. How many people do you know that are learning yomi? Well, now there are hundreds if not thousands of people that are learning shami yomi. That was also something we do with art scroll. When Austral finished translating the usi, they started a new usi cycle and we launched Shirum with them and we have Rabbi Rosner and Rabbi Resnik and a couple of them who are saying now who's USI for there are all types of people learning. I'm not saying if you're learning dafomi now you should start learning if you don't have time for it but it's something to keep in mind. It's a important part of Torah, very interesting part of Torah, and we've made it accessible to the world. And I get into different features, but I think in my mind, bringing Torah, real Torah to the world with ease of access, high quality curated content is something that I'm most proud of. Right. Okay. That's very beautiful. And our mutual friend and uh and uh and I give a shout out Sham Schwarz, a big big time power listener. Obviously the the the the energy that he brings to that project and your father-in-law Simei Zimbleist was very instrumental first of all in everything that Raza does in the community there but we made a summ recently in that was in Shalim but we made a Bavi November 2023 was like a month after September September it's like September 11th a month after October 7th and it was at the time when They were calling up soldiers. They were was like, "Are they going into Gaza? About to go into Gaza." And he had Rabbi Rosner and many others who were there for aim. And this just brings out, you know, what Torah could do and how Torah literally is a grounds people, right? But if you know how Kobe could even find it online and share Rabbi Rosner's speech at that talking to people, you know, after it was a month after October 7th, the traumatized country and world and probably dozens of people in the community and at the event whose children were fighting and he's talking about what limitra does and how important it is to make it a part of your life and how you have to have the soldiers fighting actually fighting, you know, to protect Israel but the ones who aren't actually on the how important the limit is and equally as important to be able to bring down whatever Yeshua natal that we need. Right. Very beautiful. And from your perspective looking at how this project has progressed whether it's looking at some of the data that you see on the back end or just anecdotally what have been some of the biggest surprises into how the apps are used or what some of the implications of some of the products that you've put out there that you weren't expecting to see? I really wasn't expecting and this really gets back to what we were talking about before. people who if I know them as people I wouldn't think that they're going online to learn. One of the it's interesting you know if I meet somebody who hasn't heard of it the first thing I say is hey you haven't heard of it because you you don't learn Torah online you still learn Torah from the books the amount of people who are book learners let's call them people are learning from the books right who are using technology using these platforms whether it is to review a dafomishir whether it's to learn whether it's to hear Rabbi Hartman right the magi famous maga of the Maral 50 volume blue moral say a dartra on the moral every every week right whether it's hearing someone say a someone who's a you know specialist you know give over a piece of right being able to take the things that you may not get from sitting at your garbara right whether it's because I'm not sitting at the I'm not a morale person so I'll let me hear morale from someone who's an expert on morale so I think that's that's been something that's been very interesting to me. I think what's even more interesting to me is so I live in Lakewood, New Jersey. Okay, for those I would say most people know Lakewood is a right-wing town, right? It's a town who who the people that they know are people who went through the yeshiva system. Tene, New Jersey, right? Maybe a town, not maybe is a town, right? Where most of the rabbon there and they went to Wu and that that yes system I'm no longer I used to be surprised. because I'm I'm no longer surprised when I'm in Lakewood and I meet somebody says I love listening to Sherman Olaf. Who do you listen to? And they'll tell me oh listen to Rosner Rab Liuit or someone else who's au. And then I'll be in Tene and they'll tell me you know you know my favorite magir is the lake mag. So it's being able to to see how Torah is a unifier. Torah is a that Torah was given wasn't just like a nice cute feelgood thing was a prerequisite to Torah learning. The Torah had to be given and the way cloud is going to grow in Torah is going to be when they learn and it's just to add one more thing to this piece is that we're during the days of right that those who have a meaning and I think it's brought down already in right to go through one of the are 48 ways for a person to acquire Torah and they learn one of the 48 every single day. 49th day is meant you know to to review and I think the vagin discusses um I think he learns it in a mish I don't have time to get into the whole discussion now but essentially the punch line is is that not every person has the characteristics of each one of them one of them is one of them is one of them is they're all different ones they're all different ones which every person may not have the characterist istic that's required to excel in that canyon. You know what he says? He says it doesn't mean that every single person is going to have every single when we have who are learning learning together they each could tap in to each other's characteristics. So when we focus and when we learn right and we say the in the morning right we're ding not just for ourselves we don't ask give me Torah should be sweet to me when we ding for Torah and we for success in Torah we're so it's important it's really really important that when you're talking and asking that you should have also always talking about the plural thinking about we We need cloud all together to have this Torah. That's how we're successful in Luminator Torah. That's amazing. So, it's very cool and I think it's very interesting to me to think about how a lot of these conversations echo sort of broader conversations about the internet. And one of the great hopes and dreams about the internet was that it would be able to sort of break down barriers and transcend some of like the the normal lines. And then some of the push back has been well laid there all these echo chambers and really you're just getting your own sort of uh content curated for you. So it really is beautiful that you've been able to tap into that higher potential of creating a base that's not just big and scalable and amazing but also unifying especially in these times is very very important and I and I appreciate that a lot. Um so in your position as someone who has been sort of steeped in this world creating platforms for Tomra a lot of which is being used by Balabatim and people are in the workforce people are very busy obviously there are others who use it as well but but just focusing on our uh on our mutual shared target audience for a moment. So what have you noticed to be some of the most uh important characteristics of someone who's successful in being a mentor being connected to their learning even though they're very busy with work and community and family and all the other things. So I what I see is people who are able to create a some sort of responsibility for themselves right that they want to grow in learning and growing could be that I haven't been doing that and I'm doing that and it could be someone's doing that right I'm I'm personally very fond something I have a you know passion for is learning the right learning you know taking it slow and really understanding the the questions The answer to the garra people sometimes think that Ian has to be that you know you ended up you know learning and safer you know and that's how you're you're learning Ian no the start of learning Ian is on the page of the garra right there's garra and then there's something called rashi which most don't even learn and when I was taught from fifth grade right get to learn with rashi I think it's important you know just as a side piece you know to to not not lose focus and and lose track of that and I'm assuming most of the audience that we're talking to are people that have gone through the yeshiva system and your next your next step is learning is learning is learning tas right you could pick one tus on the right and see a question and an answer many times by the way it's going to be something you're thinking about yourself you're like oh wow you know I was thinking about that also and I see that t as a question so I think it's it's really staying focused on growing moving the needle for your own learning I think but something which could be even more powerful is There are so many people out there who maybe in the perfect world right they could have been Raban they could have been midir they could have been saying this shir themselves there are so many people who have the potential if they take a step back and try to find an opportunity to learn with one person two people three people maybe be the guy right who after right the 6:30 million in chul which probably ends at 702 to create a mission group right that And now you leave shool at 705. Maybe make a daily kiter group, right? Maybe make a daily Mr. Buru group. And it doesn't have to be you saying the Shir every day. It doesn't even require the rabbi to be involved in a daily basis. We all know how busy Rabanamar and many of them don't have the the time and the the capabilities with everything else going on to also say that cheer for your minion after Davening. There are so many people and I think people that take it on they'll they'll they'll feel themselves growing and connected to learning and I think another important piece right people today the world's very small and people are busy and they're running all over the place many of them for good things right but sometimes again this gets into like you know when you're not always thinking about what your priorities are right you know you get slept you know we're going on vacation we're going to be gone for two weeks we're just away two weeks ago we're going away again I'm not here judging you know, what type of cases people take. That's I'm not even here for that. But I'm saying that if someone feels um a responsibility to something he's doing where he is, right? He's going to be thinking twice in a good way. I'm not running away and going away for another two weeks because I was, you know, I was just I was just gone. People need me in I got to be there. I got to be there, right, to keep the Kabur going. Even I'm not saying this here, right? I'm the guy maybe who's making sure the coffee is ready in the morning for the the So, I think it keeps keeps you grounded. You'll feel growth yourself, but most of all, you'll be helping other people grow. And I think the most important thing is people that have families. When your family sees that you are somebody who's committed to Torah study creates a different respect that your family has for you, right? When your family sees that there are certain things that nothing's going to nothing's going to budge until I do the dav. I'm have to be available. I got to dab every morning at 6:20 because not just because I have to get to work at 7:30 because there's a shear right after dabing or the sh before ding. I'm a primary part, you know, of that shar. So, I think these are all things to keep in mind um especially for us working people out of the mush, right? To keep ourselves grounded and growing in Torah. That's really amazing and so much so many important points and nuggets that you threw in there. I I would just maybe clarify and point out that the internet also provides a lot of great opportunity for that. Even though if you're serious mentor, you don't need to have the most viral share, but you know, in in your town, you might not find 20 people who want a certain style of kabura, but on the internet, you could definitely find 20 or 30 people and and build yourself a niche there. Also, the the commitment and the drive I you know, Razner giving daff on family vacations over years and years and years, finding a quiet room, finding a quiet corner with his laptop and his mic. So it's really something that I've seen how it it can it can help gdole and katan alike to to stay motivated. And you know what? Like you said, you know, you mentioned the internet, you know, with today with WhatsApp groups and everything like that. You could be vulnerable with your friend. Say, listen, let's call your friend Joe. Joe, I want to grow in my learning. I need accountability, right? Either could you be my accountability partner. I want to start for the next two weeks. Make sure I learn the DAFF every day. That's just for your own personal learning. You can tell Joe, I I want to feel some kind of she and be able to give over, right? I'm not here to force anybody to listen to my whatever I want to do, right? But let's just say pick an example, right? You want to learn the Rambans till Sheni every week, right? So it's very easy, right? Maybe instead of sitting in your study or wherever you are, you know, and you know, open up your and reading the Ramans, take out your phone, right? Put on voice memos and start learning and start saying it. You'll see yourself how well you could do. And then maybe you'll ask your friend, start sharing this. I'm not sharing this because I need one to listen to me because I think I'm this special nugget here. It's just something that I do myself and I think perhaps you know some of my friends may benefit from it. That's very beautiful. This has been so interesting. Let's go to our lightning round. Three short questions, three hopefully short answers. We're now in the summer. We have nice long Shabas afternoons. What does Moses like to do when it's long Shabas afternoons? Moshu loves to take a nap. I take a nap uh you know couple hours sleep but then I like to sit down sometimes in my in my house have a nice little study and either catching up reviewing the daff I always I I very fond of and this gets back to what I was doing before find a suga find something that you're thinking about that that you want to work on for it could be you you learned you heard an interesting shila right this gets back to you know keeping yourself grounded I heard interesting Shiloh, right? So you either go and chat GBT and ask them what they thought. You do that. You do that also. That's fun, right? But then, you know, open up the sparum, go back to your days in yes of how you used to do things. You know, it's finding those times when your phone is not going to buzz and you're not going to be disturbed. And that's what I like. I'm obviously learning with my boys, catching up on their, you know, on their week. That's I like to shop this afternoon. Amazing. And we've been talking a lot about the approach and the ashkafa and the motivation around the Torah and staying grounded. Do you have a particular safer which you find most inspirational or most relevant when it comes to developing that relationship that grounded approach to your hashem and your learning in particular? So I'm really all over the place because I like and I always find different things. Obviously I I went I grew up and went to yeshiva where there was a baron cutler and I learned to be MG. So for those who have never tasted Mishbar, it's worth tasting especially the way he puts down Talma Torah and a life of Torah. I'll give you a warning. It's dense, right? So it's not light reading and don't read it thinking that you have to understand every line that he said there. But there are certain pieces there that really give somebody an understanding. You don't have to have grown up in his Ashkafa in his system, but just seeing the way he puts down a life of Torah is certainly worth checking out. But again, it's it's it's not it's not light reading. But there are lots of lines there that I think are very very powerful. The way he learns up Mr. and Kazal. So that's something that's interesting. Um I'll throw out one more which is just an interesting I've I've come across recently a set of called Shah Hazman. It's from a Rav Desler who's a I think a Mashkanovich. It must be a grandson of the Rav Desler. He really has beautiful essays on all the different times of the year. Um which many people find like becoming connected. This is all part of being grounded as a Jew. You know, being connected to the times of the year um and those are which I think would are very interesting. Okay. And if you were forced to leave your job today and choose any job in the world, maybe something that you dreamed about or as a kid or have some itch to to go into, what would that be? Whatever it would be, it would be something that I'd become rich very quickly and be able to spend a lot of time learning. I don't have any specific passion. I'm actually fascinated now with the way AI is developing. So, whatever job I would be doing, it would be with seeing how AI could supplement it. I like dealing with people. So, it could be any type of sales job, whether it's selling real estate or maybe selling trinkets on the street. So probably something in sales and something that gives me time to to spend learning. Okay, thank you so much for joining us and we really appreciate learning all these insights and the behind the scenes going on behind one of the great med all Torah platforms that so many of us use and and enjoy and grow from and get inspired by. So thank you so much. My pleasure. Wonderful. Thank you for the opportunity. Sky.