Stealing the Afikoman; Sources and Segulos

[Music] welcome back Rabbi Dr elazar BR it's a pleasure to have you here as we approach pesak to discuss the earliest source of stealing the and what the history books tell us all about this exciting Min that gets the kids all excited during the Seder and we thank our sponsor Ellie and Bon Florida who are dedicating this episode in memory of Mrs Ruth G of Seattle Washington whose first yard site is and all the learning should be for we thank the gas for the dedication so BR what could you share with us as we begin this episode I just want to say before we begin please if you'd like to get br's email of and contrace him and all kinds of interesting things and parelia he sends out before y I don't think it's too late yet for this Yan please email him elzar gmail.com elzer gmail.com you can email Meed m.org any questions comments suggestions if you would like to make a dedication towards any of our future episodes without further Ado Rabbi BR what is the earliest source for stealing the A and how has it become a very very exciting part of the Seder and barem many farm stores and toy stores make good parasa from this minic okay so that is a great question and we hope to get the answer very quickly okay but first before anything you want to know this Min of stealing where children plan this well in advance when's the best time to steal it when's the father not looking what to ask for okay that's what we hope to discuss and a little bit more insight into the say there actually okay so lashel one of the ways when you want to find out if a minut was done and stuff like that is you look in it's called autobiographical or Memoir literature so we have various sources that show that they were doing this thing of stealing Shan describes how she stole a when she was young and her father the famous re of Herman known as the of America promised her a gift if he if she gave it back a there was Aid Alexander Zin harwitz who wrote Memoir about his life he lived he lived a long life and he had wrote a long Memoir about it was orig as I said in recently was translated to English describes life in the 1860s and onwards and he talks about stealing and he says like this he he stole it then his father said um he he he asked for a present a sack of walnuts that his father gave him he gave back the to his father and that but he said their meing was that the S cannot continue unless is found on eat him so I had the upper hand but my father said with me that if I were to steal the next night the second S I would have to eat the entire afan all by myself so the second night he did not really he was he was scared to steal the a anyway because it was done many many sources for this 1880s a l um autobiography from Benjamin Gordon a doctor he describes how him and his his mother helped him steal it the Hungarian godik describes in Hungary his mother encouraged him to steal it and they ask his father something numerous sources for such a thing and the in this type of literature we're not going to list out all of them okay now so it was done but is everyone Pro this this Min so to speak so interestingly enough I'm sure I'm going to mention briefly in a few minutes some people that were against it some but here's a chuva the Chua written it was written to I believe rev rev Yehuda Sor yinger or Magus different names he was a born in 1802 dies in 1860s and he we quoted him in some other episodes even in the bang of hamon he has some interesting truis and one of them was someone seems to ask them the question what's this Min what's up with the various things we do at the S such as and what's the songs and and the longer question that this person had asked is what's going on with stealing a and and then he and the person writes so first of all you see that the 18 early 1800s they're doing this but what's going on why you're teaching them how to and we know that's not a proper thing so we see already then that there were people that were concerned that there's a problem of this minig which is teaching the kids to steal laa we find in in later much later than him but let's say the the someone sent me says this and others that they were against steal they were against this minut specifically cause you treating teaching the kids to steal Kapak says such a thing and tamon they didn't do it umag writes did not have this custom it's not aing okay so we see there's some type of opposition okay now the Lisa ringer or marus however you want to call him in his chuva he has a whole Lotus trying to explain he in general he defends a lot of and hug in his in his l in his various writings and here also he has a whole Tyra to explain the what's going on behind that but I'm he is using drush and even cabala in his thing I'm going to try to be much more p and some sources which probably he did not have all them and that's why he didn't say what I'm going to discuss okay but before we get to him was there any other opposition so there's earlier there's a safer I've quoted in the past a few times from of Mets he brings down again also against this thing of children teaching them um to steal it's it's a um not only that he says that to steal and therefore you should refrain from doing it Okay now what's what does he mean so it's possible that what's going on over here is is that is that um One Source for for mhag that that's used by different people is what mus record after they went off then they talk about their life as a Jew before they went off so some people um from people also they use these type of sources to again not pasing anything but it helps sometimes to understand things so Lal in 1738 one of these such Works um writes a detailed description he describes the stealing of by the youngest child and he gets a reward from his father and what's the reason the reason is to teach the child to remember that what the that they borrow from the MIT and they ran away with items now we know they weren't doing anything wrong they would they were fulfilling what the T said but that was that could possibly be what the concern of this my is and some other people similarly is the also he brings down taka that um that the Min was the children did do it but he says and it could be similar to this that that's the reason anyway so so we're we're giving more to the story behind the the the the the of these that they were it's not only it's not only stealing there's something there's something really behind not to not to do this meting okay the question is many Jews do do it where could we trace this back okay so in most and early describing the part of the S called Yak we find what happens we break the matah then we find that some go as far as to say that the the person who leads the Seder puts it on his shoulders and he walks with a bit a bit with it saying this is how we went out in Mim others did this only later on when they're about to do the but this is what was done and then we break it the bigger half and the smaller half and we put away whatever okay now some mention putting it under a pillow to watch it but there's no mention in almost all the we have detailed lists of talking about it at this point already early on to say they don't talk about children stealing it okay fast forward but we're looking for is there any early sources so when I was looking at into this topic many years ago someone um someone sent me possibly the earliest sources like this there's many Illustrated hagadas what does that mean that um even before the printing press there were hagadas and they have all types of pictures which is a whole fascinating story worthy of many different sh but one of them it's known as the second nberg hag which is written between the years 1450 and 1500 it has illustrations and in there we see the boy puts out his hand to get that from his father and later on it says right byen the leader asks for the that the boy had hidden so we see already somewhere between 1450 and 1500 some mentioned okay besides for this work later on we don't find it said if you look in not you don't we don't find this mining another thing is there's a famous Illustrated ha one of the earliest printed Haas with pictures it's known as the prag 1526 1527 and there's many pictures in there there's no picture of this okay another interesting Mar um just to throw out there is that there's a there's a which was published in about 1597 so it's a little after the m a little after he talks about the mar the times of the marsh the mar was asked by someone where basically the mice ate the A and there was nothing left me say they put it in the pillow under the table and the mice came and ate it so there was nothing left for them so you see that let's say in 1597 the sh was asked Mar wherever he was they didn't hide it it was just put in a pillow and left under the table under the under the pillow of the of the B so but what we don't see anything about being stolen okay so what's the earliest Source we do find such a thing so if you open up we have from it's on the and he brings down this is first poish in 1696 and out the children had the minut to steal okay so here we have the first that they did such a thing a little later in 1717 there's a frankurt he also brings down this Min and in more recent years we have Rak he brings down this Min also and the which we quoted earlier which was first published for manuscript in 1988 he also brings down that the children had this okay that there was such a and now we have at least some bring it down now the question is but what's the source of this Min what is the what is the say what's behind the Min or these other do they give an Insight behind this so the answer is yes and this is um well known is like this Gar so one second what do you mean you don't give them one you give them nuts to keep them awake and then um then it says we grab the so that the children shouldn't sleep okay it's a cryptic line the obviously you have to look into various but we have a ra says like this then he says you give them and similar these other things then the goes continu so basically the r is saying we do different changes why to have the children to be inspired to ask questions so this is brings which might have such a gear of but what's going on over here is is if you look from this it just got extended instead of the adults doing it which is what it sounds like from the gar ramam it's you had the kids do it and this gets them to be all excited and to be awake during the I mentioned that a bunch of people say it just to quote tus one of my favor the marous from the son of the carbon 1791 in his beautiful says we say what's going on what's this he says and we do all different types of things such as so to keep them awake this is why they steal says we do all these types of things to keep them awake earlier now this is not found the standard this you have to use the where they have a suff that were only published in much more recent years he says so again he's telling to this and there's a long list of people who this for this minute okay many times you could find that it's it could even be earlier you say of course here we're Stelling too that this isar and this is the ra but there's other people okay and what what am I referring to so there's a fascinating um sometimes you could have a godle that he was very wellknown Mish wellknown and today no one knows of him no one knows of him sometimes people heard of a work that he might have written but he gets lost one such person is a I'm quote to you when he refers to about which we're about to read something from him he says like this Beyond famous and not only that okay he came in and he was here and then he dies okay fine so he dies in sh sounds like fine and sorry that's when he comes to to PR now who is this so people who learn you come across brings down anyway less known is that this same wrote and as I just read from the this is an account from that period of time was one he the headro of prag great rash so one of the things is we have a of his on the it's incredible incredible work and over there we find that he wrote like a um and then he's Mish this song that he wrote with all the that is being of the and then he handles all the different things in them this was a common thing that was done by many people in that also and then he talks about our discussion about um he's talking about that we just mentioned then he says like this all the things he could do that will get the kids into it that they ask questions now what's going on over here is he's saying pretty much there's some type of stealing of the that's taking place at this point in the S and this is where is he quoting this from even earlier he's quoting it from the marash marash the rebi of the mar that says over here about the great the kids get into it's all it's happening the mar the marash also says the same thing and that's what they did at the Seder so what they did was all these sh including this so it's really this is what's going on this gar this not only the giving out of nuts but it's also the grabbing which the gamar says this is what's behind going on in the gamar it's all about and this is everyone knows a lot of times you ask various questions in the I'm going to list just a few of them shortly what's the story why do we do this it's very strange it's not whatever and the answer you find in the is so much so that a lot of times if my children ask me a question middle of the year I say it's it's a great answer for parents to avoid um I say it's not am to answer you but not during the year anyway that's my perverse thing okay now buter we have like this based on this R we can understand what's happening and what's going on in this minut and what and similarly all these appointing to ready from early on and that is like this the night of p is all about the children the S night is when we do many strange things with one goal in mind to get the children to notice and to ask to get them into it the purpose of this is to fulfill the main MIT of the night lies behind many MIT the reason for this says the is was testimony that there who runs the world and that he can change what he wants when as he did in writes that the reason why is related to so many mitz is that doing a variety of activities with this concept in mind we inter we we becomes part of us the of this historic event of what happened in so what we're trying to do with so many different things and momentarily I'm going to give a short list all these strange different things is to get the kids into it to ask questions and then questions Inspire the adults are supposed to give answers and discuss what happened this is what's going on this and this is the you start with right in the beginning we it's what's going on from washing before eating vegetables then we don't make a br then we dip the vegetable into salt water we eat less than a Kaz then afterwards you break the then you lift the before then you switch at the to you switch the language at the end from Aramaic back to Hebrew what's going on here then some people remove the KRA before saying to God then you give children wine you don't necessar do it and then you all you remove the table all these different things the answer is there's many reasons given for all these different man hug and there's many each one could be their own Shear I'm not going down that rabbit hole don't worry but the point is that some people say it's to get the children curious and it leads to discussions of M and all the Miracles that took place here and this is what is going on behind the stealing of that so it's a very simple thing so I'm my Approach that I'm trying to mention over here is it's the from fromus schinger is he has gal discussion to be Mas that people this guy was complaining to him it's stealing and stealing and the answer is it's you could you could answer based on all these sources and much more Puda what's going on over here L is another strange custom writes at the S he that he attended during his his famous travels a servant circled the Kyra around the head of each male at the S three times like we do karus and people trace this minute it's a early minute what's going on again it's it's all to get the kids into it now we're not going to go into a long list of listing out the what the did at their s but it's interesting to note someone just recently asked me what was the S like by various G I said if you look on various sources you see many G they geared their s to the CH to the to the children I I believe I so he was very gear to the children and others so this person told me a friend of M Ginsburg so he tells me from what he heard from reliable sources basically is he at the Seder he stops around time and he tells the story of MIT for about an hour including singing par which he alter he was told her of alter's family during the Shiva he got a lot of they got a lot of and then they read and the point is you will find this not necessarily the par of a pajama story but this nuda of gearing it to the children and speaking to the children many different did it's a long list of now if you have all full-fledged adults that you can have deep conversations the S but that's really what the Seder is about according to strictly from a lot of the different sources okay even though you're stealing are there other that held that you could steal so interestingly enough from the family the they say the was not and he let them steal even though I brought down was against it someone who had a very interesting relationship with he allowed and he was a very M he did allow his children says he didn't understand he did not understand and this Pratt and he says it encourages it's not about keeping the children to encouraging them to steal it keeps them awake like I mentioned okay we're looking for behind this so um even though he's he's rather against it we quoted but he says it's and we're going to explain that in what is cherish what what does this even mean so there's an interesting ch ch which we now know is really written by the and basically what happens is um it seems there was a he visited family at at the S and they put out a stack of Matas at the beginning of when they say the everyone could have mat when they're saying that and everyone grabbed it and he didn't understand what's going on he got very upset and and he was told no it's to show the love for the Mitzvah he was he was he came from a different type of world maybe he was more yish or more prer that they didn't do such things and the point was based on we find that there's something of showing the okay so this is could be in the in the and others the other source that I um said that a few times already where he's very Pro it he says simple like I mentioned they're awake and then they ask questions so this is a it's a trick on the kids it gets them to be into the Seder okay so but the point is that the simple it's a it's not such a you know complex thing this is what's going on over here and just two more audus over here um my friend who is n sadly recently earlier this year Jacob once I was talking to him about clim so he tells me ohler in his back of a published in 1902 he has a reason and it's a simple reason is because basically what one of the things is in in especially in certain circles they're very they're very concerned they have to eat it by a certain time so you're scared you're going to forget about it you're going to get a r the S too involved in the Seder so this is what better way you have a Sher is the kid is going to constantly remind you because he wants to make sure he gets his reward this is a cute reason found in this from mler who was interesting in America in the early 1900s na okay one last reason that I came across looking is from shim schw shwab so he writes like this I personally do not care for the term stealing the matah it's an unwish it's unwish to steal even not only that is is there stealing now now he says what I call it hiding the mat to be used later as a which is called hidden so basically you the term you just got to switch the term the hiding the M he says then he says acute acute Mah this in this story he says like this we know there's deeper meanings behind many and hug so Jewish parents used to play with their children with in their games they would have some type of um Torah lesson okay so what's going on over here the meaning of y when we break this mat into a larger and small into a larger and smaller piece with each piece being used for a special purpose there's also something symbolic the smaller piece the poor men's bread is left at the S plate along with the however the larger piece is Hidden Away by the children who will ask for reward for his return and then eaten at the end of the meal says his father told him that the smaller Pizza the represents with all its trials and tribul tribulations this piece is left on the S plate along with the matah with the maresis reflecting life in this world with all the sweet and bitter experiences however the large main piece which is hidden away during the S to be eaten after the meal represents which is hidden from us during our lives in this world eating of this piece from after the meal when when one is full and it's symbolic to our reward which can be attained only if full of the Mitzvah and life ofz and this is when the children ask for the reward giving it up it's symbolic for our reward in which is granted by if we earned it this is a beautiful reason thatw set over from his father AB okay anyway in short as I demonstrated right now there are M possibly even in a gamar about this Min of okay now I just would like to discuss for a few more minutes another min that relates that um which also found very interesting which is some people have this meing that after PES they make sure to save a piece of I've even seen in auctions they sell a certain piece of certain what's going on so is a memoir back to Memoirs I've quoted this Memoir in the past Pauline W gr writes in some Jewish homes a single round matah was hung in the wall by little thread and left ear as a momento okay and others other different autobiographical accounts um mention such a thing the used to give out a piece of which and then and people would save this piece from this a of his all year around okay everything goes back to's that says a very cryptic sentence not he said such a thing that you can make hang and make holding it with a knife to hang it what's going on here what's he even referring to similar we quoted him earlier today the he also brings down that there's accustom to break off a piece of and hang it and he points to this now but why what's going on behind this so the answer is is that hanging that you're avoiding the issue that might be that otherwise there's a problem of it's a for okay why we holding this says it's not an issue because it's to remind us again of he says his father and his R they also did keep this mining of keeping behind a piece a small piece of so this gets back to what we were telling with the r and the that there's so much going on to remind us so we keep we're keeping something from what happens at the we're going to see another interesting point about there very shortly okay now the he brings down that some the reason for the Min to hang it is again but the question is what's going on is there really an issue which is Raising so there's where he talks about in general the concept of he says that bread which is a what in the general it's CA the bread is a special gift that gives us from so you can't use it in any embarrassing way however when one's using it for the so maybe that could be why it's not could that's really what means okay anyway the point is that people started carrying it but not only it became a major scho again brings down that people used to carry when they would travel what's the source for it so there are early sources we're not going to give the long list of the different and that talk about all the various school we just mention one at the end but I have a dear friend born from Toronto put out before he got married a count tracing all different aspects of this Min of the of the a calling it a very nice booklet where he traces all different aspects of this Min now interestingly enough one famous personality which we know he actually used the schoa of using this when he travels and it helped was Sir Moses manur in his autobiography we have his the boat was in a terrible storm and they threw a piece of a into the sea and and and he was saved and his family on that day that he was saved for his family made a suda always bad but we see that they actually use thisa and there's other documentation about just to mention one other about it the his incredible TR he says that has all of a so now it should come out that one has a problem of leaving behind one piece so rather if you're leaving behind the piece Al the sagula um people in should use a regular piece of matah okay um he brings down the that he made sure not to lose one Crum of okay but say there all these different types of different aspects of the minut we're not going to go into just to mention two more marus and to conclude is like this sometimes we find we have a Min and people make fun of it and they save it for traveling and everything this so it's clear the Mak is bringing in he's not saying against it and so we see it's an earlier minute but the but the extension and what's behind it and that people end up using it for all types of things um um saving them from when they're traveling do we have earlier sources for this okay so I've quoted this in the past this is a fascinating work basically in 2010 a fascinating manuscript of r v was published for the first time called V is best known as being the great talmud of the Aral expert in cavala ETC and he brings in this sais all all types oful and different things that he himself many times used for different situations and it's a whole Lang what's behind the I've written about in Hebrew in English um we spoke a little bit about it in the episode about lvid and the point is that he brings down this became it's a famous School of safer and this and interestingly enough today the safer is sold Page by page for thousands and thousands of dollars cuz it's even the safer it's not only that it's a school of safer but the pages I looked at as a SCH okay anyway over here in page if you want if you're on in the sea traveling and is um the the waters are going very Stark what do you do you take mat from throw it in the water and you will be saved okay so we see this Min and him mentioning this thing this minig so it's pretty early on okay one last aspect of the a is that um that Rik brings down we we keep it to burn it with the in order to remind us that any the famous D that carbon P you can't have any leftovers so we keep it to remind us and to we burn it with it I don't know how how pre prevalent that Min is there are other sources that they do keep it for the end of the year and to um burn it with the anyway these are some of them in hug Behind These are the side things has a lot of famous chist discussions that not such as you have to worry about and you filling yourself and then of course there's the great question what does the word a even mean but these are these are for a different lecture she not for now but this is we we just given a little bit into some of them in h number one that the children stealing it and everything there is M from it possibly even in the standing in gar obviously there are people against it this is always a case that we find two groups of people looking at something and some people one and could come out completely different opposite it could bother people and we're talking about very big DM that are sensitive to these type of things and other people find they find we able to find the deeper meanings to it and that it's okay that's one me and the second thing we also mentioned is that there's a even that they people kept a little piece out a school of all different types of things which can be traced in in different sources of this far amazing thank you very much much you mentioned keeping P of one of my close family members who has many manyas you open up any one of their Haas and it's full of mats pieces of mat being kept as sh whatever the source and a for that minut is and as you speak about this you know whether stealing is a good thing or a bad thing you know maybe we could do an episode one time about throwing P at a right which I know also is it a good thing is it a bad thing the extension the extension of the and yes yes yeah yeah that is a whole she y okay so if you want to make any type of dedication or sponsorships for RAB Brat's work please reach out to me or to RAB brat and we're happy to discuss other options and with that we wish you and all the listeners of again if you're still listening and you want to get br's email with interest new books and far available please send them an email alzer gmail.com