Shavuos Flowers: The Early Origins | RabbI Dr. Eliezer Brodt

[Music] foreign [Music] T it's a pleasure to be with you once again and we will plan Endeavor to record an episode about flowers for Swiss we all know the Dominic and Claudia Israel hours at home flowers and schooled the kids come home with the Arts and Crafts which seem to indicate that there were flowers on harcinai so we're going to get to all this and hopefully here's some things that at least I didn't know before maybe some of the audience didn't know before either and this should be something which should be interesting to people and once again if you have any questions or comments or suggestions or feedback please email either myself a schwade mou.org or Rabbi Dr Eleazar brat gmail.com and without further Ado here is Rabbi brought how are you today so basically just to start with two short very short introductions number one I was like that this topic I've been already is taking it I would say for over 30 years looking into collecting I was interested in it at some level or another over the years I wrote a little bit about it in my doctorate on the magnav rum some of it I'll be sharing some of the kudas today um some that I worked on in macron arjena which I've mentioned also in the past which is where I was working discussing in yanim relating to Galicia so here I was tracking down how we're going to get to the gra it says psych about what he said about flowers and how the people dealt with it I'm going to touch on that a little bit I also dealt with a little bit about the ramadir so some of that work will also be mentioned here this also eventually led into expanding work on the hayadam which we'll also discuss over here which I eventually turned into writing a book and just one last I'm dedicating this to I I don't do too much for my shoe based Fila in ramapi German but I helped them every year with the putting up of the flowers and the shul and so I dedicate to the people that we put up the flowers even as you'll see it's a mini Israel and that's what we're about to begin learning the makiris the early machines for that so it seems like this is a rabbit hole in my hydrant that you've been involved in for uh yes it's a rabbit hole that I would say I can't it would be too many rabbit holes to explain all the rabbit holes of where they led me but that's just a drop okay yes correct okay so now the the way people like to speak always is you begin with three with some stories so we're gonna say three very short stories that people heard at some point to another at least one or two of them Story number one relates to some Cipher it seems they always used to make a very fancy elaborate decoration using grass trees and all types of good smelling stuff and they would put it where he sat it sounds like even like some type of small sucker and somehow agabai saw it and he was against it maybe they went out of control they didn't and he took it down he didn't let them do it and it seems that this guy by didn't last that year seems like some safer was upset this is one scary story they say you know starting up with a minute another story that people um that this is Schlesinger an interesting character to put a mildly when he's talking about Mendelson someone that he couldn't stand um so he says that when he came to Berlin so the first year he did the proper mini gear shuis they saw that he was doing everything right with the flowers and the trees and everything and then the next year they saw he wasn't doing it so they asked the Rob of the city what what happens he says yeah why why the first year did he do it so he said he Feist he's starting to um he's being cut he became a kaifer obviously this is extreme extreme canoeia sticker story to portray Mendelson in a certain way which I believe every was and wrote a whole safer to to this thing but he was coming to use it as an example with the story of how he was knowing with shoes obviously I don't think there's even any truth to the story but we're not going to go into that the third story is it seems in a little some City uh some chetl and Lita they had the trees and they had the um they had an elaborate thing and the bahram and about her was touching it and kids are the the guy by was fuming what are they touching it they're going to ruin it and he he hit him very straight hit one of the baham very strong the kids are the rough saw this happening so the rav said he's abolishing this minig so that oh yes shouldn't get so beaten up for for this minute even though this guy by was looking at it it's a minute you know we have to be Mahajan but he I guess he was taking it to an extreme anyway these are just three stories um of the widespreadness of this minute okay beautiful so I don't sit in a library like you have with all those books behind me I like some of the classic books here if I had to start learning some of the classic sources where would we begin and maybe you touched on it has anybody written like a dedicated save for all this anything dedicated Academia or this is something that you're gonna have to put together yourself okay so so first of all as of today there's no academic or from book just on this topic but there's many many articles speeches on the internet and terrorists and Hebrew and English you every year people get into it and people have another connection Discovery so it's a very hard Topic in the past bunch of years I I did collect a bunch of articles that people wrote about and see what they said it's very very interesting and as like everything else there's an x amount of sources that people get to some of them will mention today and um and everyone and has their everyone has their take of how they read and put together the sources I hope that what I'm presenting is actually some material that no one else um has said but it could be someone did will you'll let me know now but you're but back to your original question that you said is there it's actually very interesting and that will take us backwards a drop until so if you look in the reshine and there's no really if you look in the rambam well there's no with all the different things like Thomas all these different Rich Laney McGillis Rose we open up your rambam you're not going to see this if you go to the tour you're also not going to really see this now okay let's fast forward a little further the base yasu for abuse of Cairo he goes ahead collects from all the reshining whatever he had and everything and you'll see schwuest there's nothing doing there's no Hillcrest milk Hicks there's no staying up at night now what's fascinating is is who why do we stay up at night so obviously that's its own episode Rabbit Hole not for now but everyone always knows the basic event is maggot they stayed up the base yes it doesn't bring it down in the basement doesn't bring it down so were they doing it weren't they doing it doing it it's a different episode but point is if you see if you look at your shoes nothing's happening there what happens so the base is published around the years 1550. we're gonna give a rough pretty pretty rough exam almost an exact date around when it's published okay now at that time my mission those years a work comes out a maxer comes out the marks are magnet and this master is hasn't it seems this master um this is the year 1550. comes in then it comes out a few more times and this master a lot of people were fascinated with this master all the bibliographers of this uh they're busy with all different types of aspects whether it's mayor Benny yo yitza Griffin and a lot of other people discussing different things about this master but what's significant about this master is and a few others they had this master and they used this master for the halachus that is incorporated throughout this master okay thought where was this master from this is for the Ashkenazi kihila and shaloniki now what does it say over there it says voice as is getting dark you they would put out him foreign now okay fine so this is when 1550. that actually is as far as I'm able to tell as of today this is the first printed Mara makim that mentions flowers okay number two what is Macar so now we know that there was two very very important sources floating around in from that time and onwards one is the maril and one is a safer basic turn from Isaac Turner so the Maru who is born as late as 1375 they discuss his date of his birth but anyway 1375 he dies 1427 is talmud his talmud wrote down who all is on hagas and again it gets published he's in the time before the publishing era but it gets published the first time when in the years after the um after this migration okay now when but it's clear is that the magalyzedek from other sources he had the my real in manuscript he had access to a great Library over there which is discussed in the master that he publishes the Ace of hacker deals with this but there was a massive library in soloniki at the time and so it had it seems it even had manuscripts okay but anyway what it says in the my real is not the exact lotion what the magnet said he says that they put on the floor of the Bayside the summon he adds in those are the same thing but his reason is the Simpkins so you could obviously ask a question if that's if it's simple as a regular why is it associated with and not without the um anyway Rob Isaac Turner he publishes he he is a contemporary of the my real we're not going to get into his whole story also but I'm gonna but we are going to get into the significance of the maroon Rising turn in one moment but basically Isaac Turner is born in 1380 dies 1445 and he has a safer called the he has a massive safer we're not it's not a massive safer in size but basically going through all the aspects of the of the Year all the putum on says and many different halachas um are this is the source from it it's also published in these years in the fifth in in these years and what happens is like this it has and it also a work called it says that they will do it in the basic they will put as of him this does not have Shay Shaman in the basic nessets for what reason was simcha it doesn't and so that's similar to the Mario okay now what happens is like this is that now we have the my real we have our basic Turner fast forward about 1570 the famous famous did ramesha israelist drama he he feels the base yasif doesn't is not doing Justice let's say to the khagashus so he adds into he puts in there's a Hagar over here and says his follows they did I saw them and choice in the base I can asset and then he adds in the habatum also at home so we went from the maril and revisit Turner that guys so we see from here if you look at this very carefully is that there's minor Michaelson in the actual minig already early on from the maril it sounds like they did it on the foreign and not only that if you're looking at the let's say the magnetic which possibly the Rama might have seen might not have seen so it's it's it's after discussion right but the point is he says so what's going on here anyway but furthermore is there Allah is extending this now normally we know we open up the Maisha but over here the documentation doesn't tell us anything so Ramos worked RK Maisha which was what he used to eventually turn into the ram to incorporate as the Rama we're going to explain a lot of times the sources doesn't say anything so we don't know what's the reason for the Rama or his makiras now why is that significant because many of them for these type of topics is the my real and Rob is external that's the significance of these two greats Farm now in 1903 the record yaisher which is a talmud the Jewish adesan wrote down on hagas of Israeli and there he says that the true sadashimotaka do it we are in the house so it's possible that Rama had this as a Makar and that and at least for the house aspect which there are ma is extending the Makar is from The Truman sadashian okay but it's not being or something he probably had some sources which we don't have today now interestingly enough a work that came out literally in the 1580s this is right after Rama influenced probably by the Rama work called and he says Dominic is to do grass shashana because so it seems like he's taking the Rama but he's and he's using as the reason and and then he says because it was given them okay but what does that have to do with grass it's still unclear and this is the origin of everything there was grass how do we know because it says there must be why couldn't they be there because there was Mara for the great that they would have eaten the grass that was there um I saw someone say to the fact that there was a it's a hiddish because it's in the mid bars on the midboard is not stuff growing so must have been maybe that also but lamaisa looking around I was not able to find the husband what's the deeper nakuda behind um that that is that's why the maril is much easier the maril says it's simcha foreign it's even better because it's not symbolic to harsinai it's a nice thing and we're gonna see an extension of this shortly of how this minute developed at a certain point in time with this nakuda but now let's backtrack for a minute alkan we see that it's only the my real or by Isaac Turner these are people that are active in the Years 1370 and onwards but what about earlier do we have any other early sources any new possible so interestingly enough there's this fascinating work from Emmanuel harami maharas Emanuel it's written approximately 1321 and there we find it says um basically it seems he's it's without getting to the whole story behind the safer but it says something to the effect that Sivan is when there are shashanim that's when Tyra was given so now you there's a minute because it was given in the month when there is so you put up flowers okay so this is actually much more it's a nicer thing it makes more sense and everything now obviously people so now this shtickle from Emmanuel Roy me eventually trickles down to a few hundred years later some of them have no idea that it's in this the car is this a manual right I mean what's the significance because the base area comes out very Stark against the safer so the obvious question is if it's one allowed to use it or not I'm not going to pass any I have to ask your local Rabbi but I could and I was recently as a matter of fact a week or two ago someone asked me something relating to this how could this person he was relying on the safer so I told him the following very short nakuda which is his fouls there was a great going we mentioned recently was a great caltiana guy and he wrote another thing that he wrote was he was asked by um um he was asked by a mayor Shapiro to write some type of curriculum for the Yeshiva what the bahram should learn and stuff like that turns out he and he lists all types of swarm and which age they should learn this how much AJ should learn that amongst the different each thing there is fascinating what he's doing the curriculum it's AI they have a few episodes to explain the significance what the sparm are and everything about it but what in this farm he says Emmanuel now I promise you no one no one will accuse that when Michelle Roth was a real from you um they say that said about him that you could rely on every single chuva of his except one because he talks about if he should say Hollow anyone and he says you should so someone said I heard a person his comment was said on the safer of an Akron of his time that he could rely on every Trooper except that and you end up saying Hollow and you're relying on that juva you're probably not going to go to get him okay fine that's just a cute uh thing okay anyway the kids are that's the so that's the only early source is this a manual right but now the question is I according to all these sources the Rama and the lavush and everything that we just mentioned there is only discussion of either flowers grass or shishanan which is roses is there trees or branches and all these types of things elaborate and if you look in pictures of shoes and past years and years there's elaborate decorations I think I've seen on the internet pictures that they some at one point people put out pictures of the different shoes unbelievable elaborate um decorations where's the Macar for this so interestingly enough if we're looking for the Makar of trees it seems the First Source is in the work found on the side of your standard form of Gambino the maganav Rome he dies in 1683 and he writes in a work that's printed after he dies in 1692 that today people do is now he says so it seems that it seems to start to become annoying maybe in his time now why says I would like to be mechadesh possibly that the reason is because on a Terrace what's the din on Paris or Elon so she remind us to Daven for the Paris of Elon very interesting thing so he's being magadish time for the minute because we as we just saw on the early stories no but people are doing it so he's trying to malama what's the Hester okay so here you see someone being mechado already a time in a minute which is its own discussion not for now anyway there's a lot to discuss about this but just we have two more kindness about it then we'll move on one is Hector dying in Altoona printed in 1743 where it's clear we see they're doing this thing with the trees he talks about another thing that they had um on top of the Aruna kadish and many shoes today they have such a thing so on they would have on on the low noise they would have some type of acerosa debris on top of these islands some type of thing but he was against such a minute but we see that they're doing it in a tree they were put in the tree even though the Sarasota okay interestingly enough in an historical work from 1785 he just of nickelsberg um he writes he writes that um it was very cold in 1785 and you'll see the significance of the day 1785 so they couldn't have trees to Makai in this hey look of the minig in where they were okay but the question is is there any other early sources for trees because as of now I'm saying is the early source is from anyway fast forward there's a keyboard it's called um now this keyboard we're not going to go into discussion what it is right now but it's published it's written in 1616. that's a lot before the mugan of rum so in vir I'm looking at it and it says that you did they decorate the shoes and the base Madras and the houses with and then it says at the end the unfei ate of ice which is trees so I'm like oh man here we have a much earlier Source than the that in Italy which is where he was from in 1616 they were doing the three minute anyway this work interestingly enough was written not in Hebrew he wrote this in Italian going back and then then it was also translated into English in the 1630s go n1650s it was written for the guardian actually not for Jews and going back to the early the first edition in Italian and in English you'll see that there's no word trees there it doesn't talk about trees what happened is like this and this is a common problem the translator who translated this work into Hebrew was a galaxiana in the 1850s so he recognized in his minute so he didn't do an exact translation yeah the minute is already in that point Tom Glitz is they did trees also so he tried he added in words that don't say in the original text because as I said trees the higher was not existent as far as I know the magnavron period of time which is in the 1670s 1680s is when they first started doing this but this is just a cute thing it could be someone will discover a source that they did it before but as I said this Medina is not a source okay now the question is is there any opposition to this minute so everyone knows and this is we're going to get to shortly is the gra was against the many because it's um and not to do it okay now obviously there's a lot to discuss about this which we're not going to discuss which is the dharm of this and all these type of issues is a massive juvenile my rig which is what it's taught which is also relating to the grow about this Shiloh we're not going to go into those aspects right now because that will be rabbit holes and rabbit holes and rabbit holes but the part of the question when people talk about this they say that that if hookahs if the the hanhaga is a ancient hug of you didn't mean say that you didn't were doing this for hundreds of thousands of years then it changes so they say that there's a madrish somewhere that says that when Hammond was talking to she's talking about the various mahogany that you didn't do one of them is that they do on shuis this minute with with a savim anshuas and that they're a weird group of people and we should kill them now if that's the case we have a madrish that pre that makes this very early this minute already that is their time okay that's amazing and it seems that from in contemporary truvis that would help them take away the problems okay now in order to um discuss this so I'm just going to say two points of this number one is as follows there's a schla which he publishes this in 1597 first 1597 he has Horus in the back of his father's work Amic Braha then it's also Incorporated in this law and over there it talks about a minute that it seems they will give out and shoe they would give out grass to smell so he says not to do it then you should do it at a different time okay now the magnet around brings down the schla and the price can handle the schlot and it's very cryptic what's going on over here what seems to be happening is as follows that um we have another aspect in this meaning and that is clear from if you look at revasive Yusuf hashemish the shamish of vermais when he's talking about worms the killer what they did is they would they would have the floors of the shul they would put um grass and all these types of things and around kadish they will put a shot in and flowers and grass and then they would give to the hush of the members of flowers by their place so they could smell it so it seems like there was some type of mimic to give it out was against when they were giving it out because it was the middle of it was right after it was I guess it's going to be during khazarus shots and people might make a broke on it that's going to be a problem but let's say to do it right before say if a tairua was taken out that's not not as a not a not a problem anyway it seems that later on in soloniki um he talks about this and there's other sources that this is what they did when they would by the by um by Chris ataro or by hogba different times they would put out flowers and that was that's an extension of the meaning now that's what it sounds like in this supposed Madrid that says this um that they would gather grass on choice that Haman was saying now child is so now one Makuta is over here this is if this is the Makar from the minig and wait the Schloss singing it and later on in in other sources this would sound much closer to the Rama because the Rama was saying it has to do with something with the tires that's why they did a dafka Bashas right before Chris ataro or right after Chris something symbolic to that and it's not specific to us which is so this is a different schlav a different step in the meaning but what is the target what is the what is the Makar is the aurelian ancient Makar from the times of the um so the answer is like this as we know was unbelievable what he knew and in a short cryptic note and Berkey if he says as follows there's a there's a there's a smack for the minute you brought down we have flowers and this is that says that they would do this with grass and shoes what's he talking about he doesn't say which measures he's referring to so there's a famous madrish there's different versions of the majors also in Target's Esther and basically it sounds like they would gather apples on that was thrown down on shoes they throw down then they would gather it and there's different there's all different sources to this magic now some people might realize this might trigger a memory and that is on simplest Tyra this is which is that they throw apples so aceres is the Shiloh is the flat Terrace referring to truis or somehow and there's a lot of macaron's handling about this thing but this real macquarius to talk about and this magic it's referring to clearly that they did throw apples or something on and what about flowers so interestingly enough if you pull out your target early editions of tiger machine you won't see anything of this you'll see about the apples and you'll see in the midrashan the the similar mid Russian they talk about apples or something but they're not talking about flowers and truest they're talking about anyway what happens is like this in 1770 a parish comes out on the tiger machine and in the air he throws in a word and he throws in with they throw on a Terrace they throw not only apples but they also throw flowers so here we have an early source is referring to this marriage that they threw flowers but it doesn't say why they did it or not but uh but now that we know there's my real all these different things it will make sense and that's what has to do with Lamesa where did this 1770 perish on the tiger machine he get this from and none of the editions of the thing of the madrasian when we have a bunch do we find anything about shashanim and turns out does it work famous work called the Henderson talks about a minute the flowers that they would smell it and they would put it on the safetyra this Minix sort of of the shla end of the and as I said and then says any refers to that Madras now if you look in Hillcrest he brings down the whole stickle of the tiger shiny he says it's a fastening what is he brings in the whole thing in their middle he says they would spread it out throw it around and people will gather it so we see here in the nursery of the tiger Shani that the Candace yum is translating so this is the Makar for this fellow in 1770 who's writing a parish on tangshing he is using the tiger shiny that's found the whole tiger shiny is found in the we know we're not going to get into this now he will learn the safer and he knew the safer Khan very well so he remembered yeah the tiger shiny will feel that he it could be at that time he didn't have his tiger shiny handes he didn't remembers that's why it was in his head it's a time-shaking but now that we know it's not the fact machine none of the madrasion talk about it there's no early Makar at least from midrasham that we have that have been located today that established this minute for being early anyway so that's so now we could go to further into the snagness of the minute which is the opposition against Dominic he talks very cryptic he says there was a minute to do this to put in the shoes grass and whatever and then he says it stopped and he doesn't explain and sometimes we find that uses this lotion I suspect it's a it's based it's a cryptic lotion due to the sensor the sensors in those times the the government only allowed certain words things that were somehow being offending against the religion at the time so then they made them take out these type of things um in this Farm even in the times it's been there's a lot been written about this not only about in general but and now what am I talking about we'll explain this shortly where is the source where the grass says this if you open up your beer I grab the girl doesn't say any such thing but there's a safer safe for everyone's familiar with from Danzig it's first published in 1809 a few years after the grass nifter and again in the safe massage in 1815 and then later on in the mice arrive and we see this on Hugo that the grass said not to do the minute of of flowers or the minig of trees on we'll see what exactly he says shortly now Lamesa I already mentioned that we discussed about that it depends so if you go as you go let's say the show lamichev in one of us so he talks about this in the end and he says he wants to be yashiv the minig of Claudia Israel that they do do illana is on trees even though the guy in Rebellion says is a problem of as it's brought down we are in the safe he says no it's not true because if it's something that's done for covet and it's not done for avoid the Zara then it's not going to be a problem how do I know how it's done so he says I sent the people to go ask the guy and why they do this why they put up trees why do they put up trees and he said um because maybe it's a problem and lamisa again in 1848 he wrote this and he said it turns out they only do this because of covet and nothing to do with the religion so it's not about who because they're only doing it because it's something nice got him do something nice and we do something nice so then it's not there's no problems Lamesa much later on in galicio besides for the show me if you have the Martian he talks about it in achuva and he says that it's no problems because we're doing it differently than the way that guyim do it they leave it outside their doors we do it inside and that's going to be me say if you did if we did trees on shrew is outside of our shoes maybe it's a problem similarly we find even an Olympic Card a very interesting work on astronomy called item Rubino he talks about Dominican little that they do do it and he says he asked the villain was against it but that was because the woman was talking about doing trees outside but inside in shoes there's not going to be a problem so he's understanding that the attacker it has no downside now obviously now what's happening is like this there's two things that are happening one is that there's an understanding that it's possible that the from the charlemation one could come away with a conclusion and the Martian one could come over the conclusion from this Makar that this tune is about trees and it goes very good the way I set it up maybe the girl is not against flowers and that was the original Manila Rama it's really this magnavram is talking about that either is not saying it's an early Makar he's just saying that people started extending to the minig and that the grows against okay and says these that's not a problem why is it not a problem for these different reasons but number one is what trees are they referring to so obviously people that grow up in places like America and Earth Israel much you don't really understand this as much but if you're growing up in America you for some reason automatically assume it's referring to when do guyim have trees and they decorate places trees Christmas time so the end and that's what he's referring to so since they do it then and now and that's what the girls that's the girls connecting and fine now first of all is it so pushed that that's what the girl's talking about and more than that is the grow anti-trees or is he anti-everything so first of all there's a Makar from someone that lived in times of illness in the times of villa going um he's the son of the Bala pardes um his name was your mark Epstein and he brings down the gra was against both trees and grass so he seems to be putting it all together lamisa what happens like this if you look in the so some high atoms doesn't even have um the Salah what's going on here so the answer is why was the grow against it because it's the it's the guy is so you can say it says Christmas no it doesn't it says Pentecost when's Pentacles Pentacles the hag that it takes place same time either they didn't know about Pentacles they didn't celebrate it it's not clear exactly where it's celebrated that's a one aspect so they equated it the kyolums that they had were censored that's why also refers to it that when he can't talk about because then the sense is going to take it out that you're stopping a minute because of that whatever it's going to cause problems the first edition if you pull out your first edition you'll see that this was what's going on and that's a problem because where the grow was he saw this going on he saw in vilna which was a city it wasn't this little stethos a massive City that the had this meaning at the same time so then that was a problem so now the childhood is only in hookah's Pentecost were they doing trees and is it also grass this is they have to know the sugars of Pentacles now this I was um the research of this and the how I got to this was a good friend of mine from Lakewood Ali Mark and he was aiming on this craft they spent time looking into it and it requires a lot of you know exactly what it is that is the hag of Pentecost and what is exactly's Christmas trees really if it's anyway when his Christmas trees come from did the girl I even know about Christmas trees and it turns out Christmas trees are not so ancient as we might think okay anyway the kids are far now I'm not going to get into all these different protein but the point is that's the Makar and the galaxiana pie skin that are coming with us because they're assuming it sounds like because they're referring to Christmas as opposed to Pentacles okay now just to um conclude this with just the um all many of the pies can talk about it there's mamish a long list of uh High ticket price gonna talk about it but we're not going to go through all them but time is short and we're just going to say just the three three four uh points to conclude and that's his finals it's very possible to grow when he issued his sack he was giving up sack for Vilma he wasn't giving a world sack because it let's say let us say Louis in saloniki people did do this meaning but they didn't know this flag of Pentacles so he wasn't talking about them now what happens is a lot of times the sack is relative for a certain place um wrote it down but he's writing also fulfilling he had no idea the power of the print how far out this is gonna go this gets us to a very important Point there's a question that's asked by many is how does the Quran become as famous as he does yes we know the girl was the gra and he was unbelievable in words we can't describe but how does anyone hear about him so different suggestions have been made over the years and one suggestion that I suggest is through the safer them was published over 90 times was a best-selling work they were haburus learning Hai Adam all over Europe everywhere um learning this safer and in this safer he quotes and talks about the gra who he knew well many many times he brings on Huggers to the preach this is before even the mice arrive and the safer is getting everywhere so if I would ask people to tell you ask them what's the most famous girl that you ever heard of I am pretty sure I would say it's the hugger of trees on truest you ask a guy guy tells giving a sheer about schwooz or he's going to speak about it someone's gonna oh the grass says it's very well known I I'm pretty sure it's I would venture to say it's the most famous could be I'm wrong it's hard to prove that I'm wrong but this is this is my uh um thought about it now so what happens like this how does this girl get out there this person the girl it's through this safer but it's not only this thing it's everything and it gets out there the Marshall is a Hebrew that he there's a guy that writes his name mark Christopher he writes that in 91 editions that he saw of the hayab and he he tracked down that there's over 91 editions as far as you know 90 editions that he saw but there's more there's more probably that's all that he was able to see he says okay anyway the point I'm trying to make is like this that the the sack of the could have been more a local psac based on the Matthias where they were and Kai Adam became bestseller even Beyond his Wildest Dreams he says actually nagadama for the second edition that the safer became every it went everywhere Beyond his Wildest Dreams the same thing in hayab everyone's learning it but he he didn't know this so therefore it's not necessarily that the sack whatever the sack of the girl was was it meant to be Universal so that's why it could be in the biragua he didn't include it because it wasn't it was a thing he said in Vilma Vilma he sees what's going on which is its own discussion was I mean he sees he was locked up in his room and he didn't even open up the window shades even whatever is the girl really a person that was cuddled from society or not I'm not going to get into that anyway the point is eventually the mahogany of the gra where it takes time but as Evan writes and interestingly enough inside from visvarum how does the Han hagas or the girl get out there he says one of the ways is through the luachard Israel when it comes here to Israel all of a sudden ski wrote down different non-huggers and and that's slowly what happens anyway um the kids are the anhaga of the gra of this nakuda of that position but in litter there's many makairas that they didn't accept at least this particular anhaga that they did have trees um Le Marshall Feinstein writes in his youth there was a machikistan they wanted to steal the trees and it was a big macarcus in the city and the reason was they were coming mitad to be my kindergra but but the city where he was was a wasn't a hasidish city so to speak or anti-graw City but it wasn't accepted and there's many different sources just to quote one cute Source heimgrado in a book of his translated English called rabbis and wives now was from Wilner so in the story that he's talking about he writes about Choice the characters and it seems someone had flowers and he says his fouls he says kids are some this woman prepared flowers so her husband says through the Villa going did away with this custom because the Gentiles do the same thing on their holidays she said what if the gun did it he did it he did he did away with it but now we're a hundred years later and we have our an hour kahila over here in Vilma and he does it so you see even in vilna they did it anyway um and even though it's a novel but it's your Dua that what he wrote about was a reflection mamish of Live accounts of what he witnessed in film and he was an amazing um person of an amazing sense that he recorded he was trying to record for what was destroyed the official world that was destroyed he did an excellent job of recording that anyway the martial Trader blitzki writes he heard that even in the base classes of the grub before the war they had trees and he says so he he was bothered by it because he was a girl Nick and in the shul of the gra that's already something else but but what I mean to say is there's macaris and different blood pressure macarons now interestingly enough there was some hasidim that accepted the Sangha of the mooncatcher once he says well nice so we don't do it he didn't do it at least I don't know what if he was telling people or not but anyway fine anyway I'm not going to go give the long list of all the different killers that did it but just to conclude the last two points and that's his finals one is what's interesting is is today everyone does it pretty much except a few hardcore gronics because there are more gronicks than there ever was before but even in the smarty world and if you look in many of the makaris the sparly world there has nothing to do with it as I said the base as I started the whole story The Base yeah you see if that whole there's nothing there's no more cars there's a work put out in the 1770s uh like a kids are of the shock so to speak from the son of the khazidavit yes as I said there's almost nothing there even 1770s they're not doing it at a certain point in time you see in saloniki I said the shot and others based of it they talk about by the safe attire they did a certain aspect but the shoes being fancy decorated or not but today you'll see they talk about it as basically the meaning slowly started from a more Ashkenazi macariers for the most part which is the my real rub Isaac Turner polish men hugging all these places that gets the Rama and all these um places and eventually today everyone's doing it you look in all the different sparms the hasidim that are doing it and then the spider them are handling doing it in all the different environments they will talk about the target machine but it's when you're going to the macarons it's not so push it and just and the last Makara for the story is as follows there's a minute and this relates to also what kids come home with is they will come they would have these um paper flowers they hang them up so this is already going back over 100 years and I I didn't really when I first was looking into this topic I didn't realize there's a whole sugya in Hillcrest of flowers making these paper flowers not only on schwiss and someone even sent me a book as a presenter or Maisha turiel someone once gave him a book he said who was gonna who's gonna have somehow to have something to do with it so he sent it to me as a present and it turns out it relates to the subject that people instead of doing flowers and maybe that the girl was against but so what they did is they would hang on the walls pictures of flowers so it's not the same way anyway as early as I found the Marshall and a work a fascinating work not for now called safe arkundus the trickster in 1824 reflecting vilna twice he talks about the razorlach that they would hang on the walls and the shuls in the house in the in the form of flowers so paper flowers that's what I'm referring to and the point is that this is another step with the minute and this is a lot you know that's why the morals the in the preschools they send them home with flowers paper flowers ready because they're trying to makind the gra and the Rama altogether um likes to be my Handler in all the different men anyway these are just some of the aspects relating to this mini mini guitar there's a lot to learn a lot to discuss a lot to be my bad but this is just the kids are nimroots some of the nakudas behind the early origins of the flowers on excellent excellent thank you very much so a couple things before we wrap it up you mentioned this law and we're recording this episode on error versus Stephen so what's your minute do you say that Philo for the school and with the sticker that you mentioned earlier what do you say I say is that you if you if you do if you learn Tire of the shlah then your makaim then you for sure makaim because who said even if the it's not even clear if it's the Schloss pillow that he wrote it or others or he took it from somewhere else but Cloud Israel and especially in recent years thanks to the power of the internet took on this trila and as they say trilos especially for this children is very important but on the other hand it's learning is probably also as a cold lit fact I would say that you're probably himself would rather you doing so that's a Shiloh I can't answer that it's too big of a regular excellent now you mentioned it go on minute you show line like you said before even though they're big into them and hug him of the going seems like this one they left behind but interestingly yeah not very cool yes I mean someone could tell me I don't think they put up decorations the Lakewood yes decorations and my soul here which you know many of this wasn't like where they like to follow Mini Guy Yeshiva then I'll put up Flowers and Things right right correct it seems I I don't know a poll but from pictures that I've seen it sounds like some YouTubers do do it but I can't say that all I can't say a thing because it could be changes in certain years they do do it you know it could be who's the guy in the Yeshiva at that time he's a Hey sir bro Nick so he doesn't do it you know it has to take some shoe flowers it takes there's a people have to do it to organize it and everything so people not necessarily because they don't do it is because there was a whole meeting of the Russia shivas against it because we're doing the garage I mean they didn't do it on the other hand sometimes it is because there was a meeting and we're doing the grub so yeah exactly okay yeah thank you very much and uh looking forward to the next episodes [Music]