R’ Chaim and the Oral Pesakim of the Chazon Ish

[Music] Welcome back Rabbi Dr. Elazar Brat. It is Shabis Keshok as we record this. It is the sun is setting not yet very close to setting inshimar brought is going to get in an exciting episode on kanyki on a special safer called which ran hagi personally witnessed and saw within was not allowed to be published until after he passed away. So it was just published after was nif and this is what the focus of today's episode is. We once again thank our anonymous donor who's dedicating this episode in memory of anything learned should be mishama rabbi brat. Take it away before you take it away of course please reach out to us questions comments to myself atmou.org [email protected]. Sponsorship opportunities are available. Check out Rabbi Brut's other content to be found at alzarbro.com. Actually, the information about it is available on his website. He's a very cool guy. He has his own website with his name, Elzar atgmail. No, alazarbrat.com. Alzarbro.com. You'll see all about him, where he went to elementary school, how he spends his day. Fascinating information. Rabat, take it away. >> Okay, so basically way back in the beginning of season one, episode one, when we started talking about Kanye, right after his we mentioned as follows that he was influenced by at least four great people. One of them being his father, one the one the and one the and throughout the different seasons already we've discussed time and time again his relationship and the influence these different had on him. It keeps on coming up etc etc. So now today the focus is going to be on to in-depth look at his relationship with the Kaz but specifically the his his involvement in preserving the of the Kazanh. Now we already mentioned way back for example if you look at say for it's full of it's full of brought down it's very hard to learn a piece of makes it that we can understand it what's the bottom line so to speak for what does he do he gives you the bottom lines the the come from these already in the in one of the in one of the last volumes of the dam he starts publishing chas of of of the khanish that he got from different places and there's a nice amount of literature over there that he was involved with publishing. Okay. But these are of the kazish that he was involved in preserving that was written. What about things that oral traditions a lot of times there's there's things that heard from him and stuff like or even the um even asking himself what he heard from him discussions about that what what's the story with that. So that's what I would like to focus on today. So for a background is as follows in 1953. He was part of a very big family a bunch of brothers and sisters. Some of them died in the holocaust. Some of them make now he was close with various siblings of his and their children also. Khazes did not have children but various nephews of his had a close relationship with their uncle um his sister was pesa she's the daughter of she's a sister sorry she's the mother of Kvski the daughter she's a sister of the Kazanh and sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry sorry the raanit pesha who's the mother of kvfski is the sister of the Kazanhki is born in 1928. When they get to Israel, basically they pretty much live with the Kazanh. This this sister of his basically takes care of the Khanesh a lot. She deals with a lot of different things for the Khaz. And that's one nephew. Another nephew, no nephew, Rnis and Carellites. He's born a little before. His mother was also a sister of the Kazanh. Then there was Grindman. Rush Grman his was very close to the Khaz and his children also were very close to the Khaz notably Raheim Grman who was born in 1926 and another son Ram Grman um also knew the Khaz and was also into his uncle. So all these nephews and many more were all into the of the now not only to learning the safer and learning with him but also watching everything he did. So there's tons of differentness of like he was always being watched and people spent a lot of time with him. Eventually there was something known as the which is a bunch of different 30 40 different people had different times they went into him to speak to him not only nephews um and these people this is how the besides for his tyra that the the of the iss how this was preserved starting with books about him already way way back is um the five volume set parad Dar and other volumes of literature. There's the Rabenu also someone who to have a close relationship with both Khaz and the stipler and in there he preserves many different things he watched at saw by the Khaz things that he spoke to him about and this is what becomes known as farm of the that's how it gets out there but not everything was published as we'll see. So, and eventually there's Lashel de Misa is so I already mentioned a few times it's a a valuable tool of information about the Kaznesh which was published way afterwards but what did they do? They reached out to all the different people. I guess you called them the stuff that was written, wasn't written, and they get this materials and they publish it with all different stories, all different types of things versus one volume. Eventually, it ends up being seven volumes and recently last year I believe it was it was redone, reorganized. Okay. So, there's a lot a lot of different things out there stories from about all different types of people thought. So now I my focus today more is about what Raine Kyvski in this story is and that's as follows already in 1973 we mentioned Pesha the mother of Kyfki so she was very she watched her brother she took care of a lot of different things so she had told her son Kanye different things that she saw by the Kazanh and he had written this stuff down in 1973 in the um he collects it now eventually it gets published with his father's encouragement in the back of something like over 40 different anhagas that she saw from the but now he also started to himself with the encouragement of his father to start collecting things that he remembered what in the in the time that he spent from as a little kid with the in the company of the as much as he could and basically he kept on adding to this material. Okay. Now, but before we get to what he did with this, many different works came out relating to the Kaz besides what I just listed. For example, there was there's a shul today in in letter. It's known as the letterman shul. So this shul was established shortly after the khes was nifer and this goes up all the hugs and the menhagim of the of the khanish stipler was there davender and all different many different people from the kazanesh they said including kyki. So they put out a safer a while ago of the all different things that they knew that they collected from the various the and they write a whole introduction whoever publishes this um this is this was done by a lot of different people um collecting in many different cities they had luak which had you know the the basic sometimes and all different types of hagus where all this came from we're going to touch on a little bit but lashall very famous the hug of from Kachinsky where he was mal and published in what he got from the different throughout what one supposed to do. So they're basically the letterman shul they went ahead and they did this the vakum of the kazh so before they publish it what do they do they reach out to um kfski so says kski he he first he gives so he doesn't say what's fascinating is over here you know a lot of times kineski if he gives to yeah you should print it you shouldn't print it whatever he never really gives like a writes madgish more than a sentence or something. Here he a bunch of lines and he says as follows. You did a great job collecting and I was I went through it and they and I hope it's for then he says like this had in his fascinating piece of information whenever he had a question he would look in the lu when he agreed with it he would say like but there were times that he didn't. So basically says um what was done over here was they collected and hug whatever they could remember and throughout this goes ahead and and um is has all different from what he collected and heard from the the so here we have it's not so much as based on the is safer because many of these never wrote about but this is from the oral tradition. So the oral tradition eventually gets preserved in comes along they bring it to kvski and he goes and looks at it to make sure and to use from his wealth of knowledge that he had of the kesh to put it down into this work. Okay. So this is one such work eventually a work as I mentioned the msa ish. So at one point in mishesh they have tons of material throughout their volume from rakvski. Great but not only do they have uh material when it comes to volume five. So so they they got fromki avela material something like 20 pages. Now what's again significant over here is many times we've mentioned that a lot of the stuff from is it's a it's very small short answers in in in these pages he talks it's mish few sentences and stuff like that and he says fascinating things it's something to look at something like 20 30 pages about the kaz that he brings down that he witnessed so I just wanted to quote um just two things from here if I to find it. Hold on one second. Yeah. One time and this gives a also there's a cute story with Kyki also is one time he's on the bus going from to Ben and he got off later than he intended to on the bus. So the kyki asked the kazh if he has to pay more because he was on the bus longer than intended. So the kazh answers what's why is the driver have to suffer because you forgot. Okay a cute uh thing from the you get to see his humor you got to seeki obviously was shaku and learning and he missed this. Now here he brings at the end and this will give us a sense of of something which will hopefully bring out in the over here is as follows which is worthy of his own episode um said if I go in to speak to the I'm losing we lose a piece of the Khaz what does that mean because at that time he could have written or worked on more of the Kesh it's sort of like I'm wasting his time so brought down something from Kalabasi which we actually spoke a little bit about this and he so he brought down that it seems that um the Mashka said that Yeshua held you don't have to ask everything so Yeshua's nash because of that implying from this says that if you're able to you should ask everything okay so these are just like these this will actually help us later on to understand more okay fine another work comes out in 2005 Um this is called alabetamar. So what what's they collected from the of the set over or heard over the years also was one of the get a lot from the so they go and publish it. So what do they do? So they write like this. This is but say they wanted to get his opinion on the stuff. Now again so a lot of times you know he gives a safe he says yeah no here also mush writes full sentences and some cute things many different like on the different nonhagus that saw with his own eyes or heard from reliable places and here you have again so we have yet again going out of his way to help preserve the tyr as it's being transcribed to from just to mention three four cute things from this from this. So number one is um hold let me yeah so this is a common question in it does not happen too often in in like this and they get up to you're ding either you came late to ding whatever and they get up to so what should you do should you stop should you continue so so brought brings down said you could stop and wait to hear you could hear the and then you continue says it's true not but he says you're not if you want to you could stop so he's already a full sentence from Kany then he says that Levenstein asked what should you do so he said do what you want what does that mean do what you want I'm asking you so says so says it's it seems it means it's mut but you don't have to stop that's Khan say here this is four lines from khki anyway this is a interesting from with based on kyki that's very another such um interesting thing is like this this here you get to see kvski basically is like this he would dra as soon as possible the earliest time he would d with okay fine sayski that's true Then uncharacteristically says he writes in her the following story. There was once a reb that he was sitting next to me I guess talking to him learning and it came time for so said I have to go downstairs. So the reb you don't have you're going to die or something. What's what are you so worried that you're rushing to do? They don't d right away. So and the Reb said we have a we're going to live till the end of the day so we could dive in the that's what this Reb told records this over here by okay another thing that another cute not cute but something that's going to be relevant now is what what about learning so we know everyone talks about you could you learn can you learn what could you learn all these so brings down This is a which it's not always clear what people say. You could learn they even say that um and this is what over here adds this is true and he says that the stipler so adds this the stipler told him says if you can't learn that's not called learning. So it's so if it says that you can learn on it's that it means learning. Okay. This is in okay one other um just two other quick things in from this safer we spoke about in the last episode's famous if you're supposed to hit children not a little bit a little a lot what okay um so he brings down said in a um it seems someone hit a child stam stam a child that was running around so Who gave you permission? Only the father or the rebi has permission to hit the child says here you get to see something else. He says we were in with smacked him and he says maybe he was. Anyway, the point is he got a smack from from the Kazunish and that fits over here. Okay. So, these are some of the many different things that one gets to see in this um there's other materials about hitting um from but anyway the the point is that you get to see an interesting um him as a person who was out went out of his way to preserve the to help preserve the oral tyus as it was being transcribed over the over the tufa. Another one last maramakim from this um safer with so there's a famous thing with the gr about eating grapes on rashashana. So the GR said that one should not eat grapes or shashana and it says this is brought down um this is brought down in the said this is says over the says not to eat it it's because it was there was no grapes in him so therefore he didn't eat it okay as I heard it in a different way that said it was a joke but the sight of the is because there was no in there was no grapes near him that's why but it wasn't that there's alpaba not to eat grapes okay this is again you're seeing the humor of these coming out from from Azawa so here again bottom line is we have kvski being very involved with and writing dozens of involved in preserving the oral traditions of the khaz go further And that is another fascinating safer in 19 in 2002 I believe it was came out a safer called Gins and right away on the cover they wanted people to buy it and and this attracts people even already over 20 years ago. So they write has an issue they knew what sells. So what was this? This is collection of material from Rabincian Halevi Bramberger. Who is Rabenian Haley Bramberger? He's born in 1920. In 1930 in 1956, he becomes the Mashk of Panovich Yakid and he becomes the Mashk of Panovich until he dies tragically in his low 60s in 1981. He also to have a very close relationship with both oral and so the family decided in 2002 it's fine. It's time to release these these that they have in all different areas from him. So what do they do? So they go to Kyfski and they get to go over it and he's very excited about it and he writes a on every one of these suck writes or mameish we what's the macar for it etc etc and just to quote one of the suckim but there's a lot of interesting things over here one of the sakim was hold on yeah this is a common question whichually We'll see a little bit more about it. Women do they have to dive in all three said? Yes. If they have children, maybe they have a just like but they always find time to this is what said we'll see more about this later on. Now, interestingly enough, this hoger that he got held them a lot. So not only does he write over there, but eventually in theor that's the main focus of today the he ends up incorporating most of those into the okay and now um one last for this until then we get to the main focus and that is like this there's a um put out called from which we interviewed him he was to have a very close relationship with with the so he wrote a saver called what he does is He deal he collects and puts in a whole type style the different aspects of the he gives it to the who writes on the safer all different things about it adding in some others. So again we have kyfski acting as a person who went out of his way to be involved with the preservation of the tyr of the kazish and writing it there. Okay. So Akan fine very nice but turns out this there's much more to the story. Um cafer came out while Kyfki was alive which we've quoted dozens of times already. It's called avaram which is an in-depth work from one of his family members um about all the farmers reading the safer I come across something that I heard from other sources wrote something called consciousness. What's consciousness? So if you open up um it's supposed to be the hanhagus that he wrote down that he heard from the Kazanh or that he got from reliable sources. So right away he's like what safer I must see it. It's not published. Um and this is really a start was started from the in the back of the timer which we mentioned earlier. Now he did not want to publish it. Now the question is why not? We'll we'll we'll throw out their Hezbar also um shortly. Now in the back of the safer husv they have fascinating thing is they have pictures of of all different kvski and they even have pictures of the manuscripts of some pages of each safer and they have over there. They have a a page which has in 13 different anhagus a clear picture of an hogus of the of the Kazan and then they and not only that they have a photocopy of another page. It seems it was typed up. So you could see on one hand one page of the handwritten sav of Kanye. On the other hand they eventually typed it up. So I'm going crazy. Why don't they publish this? Seems he was m but he didn't want to publish. Later on I find through looking that different places they published it. Um certain people saw it. It turns out that very close people to him in um were to see he in the course of conversation I think also was at least at one time he was to see stuff one time he asked him a question went and they took out this was it was in a special place they looked it up fine now while Rhin Keski was alive in um at one point it comes out of safer which we've quoted in the past. So in the back of this safer I note in volume one I noticed there's a called it's 45 chapters and there's a you know there's a parentheses a lot of different things and it's basically a lot of stuff from so right away I'm wondering what is this okay but I don't have an answer and they don't give you this is printed in the lifetime of they don't give you exactly what's the story what is this safer fine I I I very curious. Okay. Sometime last year before Purim all of a sudden I got an email say came out now we earlier before I had tried to check into it and I found out that there was possible that some there was some type of and some family members decided not to publish the some family members said yes to publish it and some said not to. I was like oh man this beautiful special I guarantee you it's special and now after all that it's not going to come out. Turns out Rankinowski said specifically yes to publish it but specifically after he dies. Okay. Turns out that whoever it was they won and and that was and it gets published right be around PM time last year. Right away that night I'm waiting till the morning to automatically call the guy who who has it. Then make sure to call him probably one of the first people to call him order um a bunch of copies. I can't wait till I get it. I open it up and mom was taka a special thing. You open up the safer right away in the printed it says and what reliable people said in his name. Okay. So now it's called now as a the before we get into what says it's two simple within number one is it's it's based on of different people from others. So that's the name. There's also um throughout the generations people um many especially but we'll see others they used to they had notebooks of information and they would they collected and they used to call and through the generations some of these were published and really there's there like notepads. Let's say he was learning he write down whichever and then he would write down the next day he had and it could be all the next day he was learning and called and many of them got published the for example he would write down everything that he had and eventually he would put it into organizing into different places but sometimes he didn't get to doing it so they would publish it and you're reading a piece you could get a piece int because all that could reflect what's going on today so This was a common thing or the different things that he jotted down. Okay. Anyways, I said to get this work as I said is I started looking at it and I was like wow. So what it is is it has 52 goes through all different aspects of the through the year including the and then it has a lot of aspects um and some aspects and then it has some now obviously I am not planning on spending 25 episodes to go through the hundreds and thousands of sukim that are brought down over here and talk about them and the kadushim and different things that's that that's beyond the the scope of over here. But first, what I would like to do is is to give a little bit background. First, I'm going to talk about what KKI says about this and then to give a little bit background about this whole type of thing. What's going on over here and then to focus on some very few pieces that are just beautiful and as I said, you could go and buy it. It's still it should be available in a local sparum store and it's unbelievable what's going on in the safer the different things some of the things are known from other places as we'll see but not everything is okay so now first keski as I said in many of the episodes already himself always was mpid um usually he gives a hagdama what is it that I am doing so in 1973 when he begins doing this work which is a long time after he says I saw it's it's it's about time I collected and hug that I saw and heard from the Khaz some things I wrote it right away. I heard from others that I trust. Okay. Now he brings down that people are very fond of quoting whenever this is mentioned and there's about this basically just because you see someone doing something you don't know the whole reason behind it. So maybe the is doing something but there's much more to the story. You have to speak to him. Who said you could go and paskin based on what you see? So you have to be a tremendous says a lot of times to understand what it is this act that you see the doing. He says not only that sometimes he had many tim and he would say one reason to one guy who asked him the same question and another reason to another guy and there could be many times as many different sometimes he didn't want to answer why he's doing something when people asked him. All this outlines over here and there's a lot to say about all these different so they brought down he he went ahead and he brings down of course he uses these words it's um sorry certain things are were not even some things he was just for himself not for others sometimes they were for himself he says I'm bringing them down for myself even certain things that are very positive It could be open but I saw it and I remember that he was nothing like this. Okay. Um now at one point he refers in this introduction he refers to he says that he got material from this work um and I bring it down. Sometimes he he didn't understand but he knew a reliable person said it. So he would bring it down and he says a lot of times you'll see the words okay now what's going on what's this imisher and what's this giml answer is as I mentioned all the way in the outset there was a lot of people a lot of nephews and they were all active and preserving the tyrish of the not only one of them is aid still alive gran holds himself a tal of his great brother so he has written numerous farm and one of them is famous it's called dinham of the Kaz. I'm not sure if it even says his name in the sh. Hold on. Let me just check. Does it say his name? Yeah, it does. It says it says it came down through him. Okay. Now, so gran also he collected different things that he saw or heard from reliable places and stuff that he took from the bringing down. So here you have yet another safer that's preserving both. So says I'm using that. But then he says so dinanhagus you could go buy in this farm store but then there's something else and he refers to it as what pinkas bay and you'll see throughout this country the very mid not to be one from what said even if he repeats himself they'll repeat it and they'll write in the hor says it earlier but he we don't want to touch anything he say they're trying to show you how careful they're being medactic and bringing over what wrote Bottom line is that he quotes a um a many times pink bay and who was this written by Rome Grman. So I'm desperate to see this but I have not seen it this from Rome Grman about the hagus that are not found in his which did see but he does not bring it down because Rome gran did not want him to bring it down anyway. Then he says this is where he's in 1973. But then in 2002 he added much more to the from what he got from other places and then people and then he brings you a long list of different people which I call the Kazan and others that all these people the held they're reliable and he brings down different things from them but he's not going to take and cut and paste the whole he brings certain things. Fine. I'm just going to focus on one or two things from there and then we'll move on. Number one is he quotes the Rabzer Shapiro a bunch of and and throughout the he quotes Shapiro a bunch of times. Who is this Shapiro? So many years ago a a kit of his a collection of his Tyra and his letters and his connection with the Kesh was published by his family. He dies in I think 2008. And basically he was a Yid who lived in Muny. And this Yid who um I I you know what sometimes as a Yid all of a sudden out of the blue you find out that he was living in Muny had a crazy close Keshnesh but so much clo so close that quotes and beautiful stuff from him. So now Yeshuan went ahead and they got permission from the family to put out some of the material but not all the material but there's a hug letters with the but he wasn't only with the he was I'm just going to mention two things he had to do with the briskar and the and brisk and and now he learned in now he's originally from he learned in in shivas in Europe such as by shiva and others he learned by his brother was a of the he was and it seems the loved him and he had a kesher with him as I said he wrote them letters but also he has many different suck so the finally only now recent years did the family publish it and it's interesting the whole safer whatever it is they never really made a big deal about it so here you could dig up someone living in America had had a close kesher with he also a close kerman bottom line is that they I saw a quote in the work over here that grin also we just quoted about him said that he got to possibly into the say How how does it happen? But so he this yid was the person who got it into so this is a safer that the materials they so it happens like this the family when they wanted to publish it they gave it toki wrote on it again what I'm saying he's out there to preserve the the oral tish of and then it gets published and eventually but lumis he had it from Shapiro and he puts it and he puts it it's also included in the okay So you could we could dish about each one of the names and all the different people. Some people heard of them, some people leasal which we will speak about a bunch of things in here from him. Okay. So bottom line is he's collecting from all different places. Now I just want I would like to focus on um two other pratum because as it's getting too close to Shabas and that's like this. It's not that he just quotes you on hug that did okay big deal. Now he brings mim writes tons and tons of harus from different musim gamaras smallus being what if it's against the garra it's against the mishab is arguing with the mishab you get to see is very into the gr but sometimes he doesn't go with the gr and both will be will be mats that this is like the gr this is not like the grow we see again with his tremendous makis And it's worth to see as far that you wouldn't even think was a buck and he quotes them over here. He's very well aware. But the point is he's being done in the which is a very important makuda in this thing. Now question is why doesn't want to publish this? That's a question that's uh um very interesting. So my hash is is that realized that this would end up becoming the of the oral of the this will become and as we said the whole time is writing he's not a he doesn't want this to happen now on one hand he knows that that's probably going to happen after he dies but at least he doesn't want to have see it in his own with his own eyes this is what's going to end up happening which I'm sure over time this is what's going to happen now another fascinating thing is when the family publishes it they put in beautiful and all safer. So it's a safer incredible safer for people that are interested to know in many many different it's very very organized and there's fascinating things as I said we're going to mention some of them now as time is short what I will I'm going to say one nakuda in this and then we'll that's how we'll conclude And in the next episode we'll finish up with this with this story and that is as follows. What's going on over here is really the question. What's he's been preserving the of the was this ever done before. So just to mention this definitely was done before. What does it mean it was done before? Already for centuries there were people that transcribed and hug us of the rabbim. Now sometimes you don't realize that that's what the Hebra actually is and sometimes you do and we're going to put this into the story. So before I trace in next episode I'm going to trace it back. But here I just would like to conclude with one. There's a safer any Yid who learns shar you see this come across many times it's known as the Maril Maril the Hagam the safer minhagam of the Maril Maril was born in 1316 and he dies in 1427 he was a Talm of the great Yidnar he was and many different um he was the rabbi of many different people including the Israel now one of his who was for many decided to collect all them and hug him and it's published many years later. He he dies as he said in 1427. So the first time it's published is in 1556 and then it gets published many different times and basically as one of the leading experts of the Maril Tyra Dr. Reb Dr. says who and anyone who learns and parts of your day will see how much Rama relies on this writes is similarly also says such a So he was a big person and everyone went based on this but not only that in in the 1420s and afterwards but the Rama who's writing from Ash goes out of his way and quotes it hundreds of time more than 400 times. He quotes it it's really much more but that's a rough number. Now there's different types of these men. Hagamarum and one of them is that the Talmid wanted to the Tidim had no great um plans with this. They wanted they wanted to just keep a record of what their rebi was for themselves. So in the case of the Maril that's what happened and so Talmud he learned by the Maril and basically he describes all this in his what's going on and he started collecting everything and then basically people everyone was fascinated by it and he was asked about it and and he ends up releasing over time a bunch of different manuscripts. So he ends up what he's doing his original intention was not to create major waves. It was just to he he wrote everything he saw the oral stuff that he saw or heard from the Maril and eventually centuries later the Rama and today we're all based off that. So now ultimately we're going to see amit in the next episode what's going on with Kyfki and then and we'll we'll discuss more about this how far back we could trace this how forward let's say the mav the base messki and some suck from the next time we'll continue with that okay incredible incredible information and you mentioned Rav of Zorak Shapiro. I remember him as a kid growing up and obviously I didn't appreciate I remember hearing things maybe he was close to the Kaz um I certainly know his children and grandchildren so interesting to follow up with them. >> Oh wow. Wow. Lucky. Yeah. Sometimes you get to hear such a person you don't like know and all of a sudd I remember when I first found out about him a bunch of years ago I'm like what is he what? Yeah. Amazing. >> Okay, looking forward to the next episode. Once again, thank you very much to our anonymous sponsor and any questions, comments, dedication opportunities, reach out to myself, shademou.org and or Rabbi Dr. Brut at alzabarbrgmail.com and be sure to check out his website alazabarbr.com for more information about all the goings ons. I probably said that wrong. everything going on in the world of Rabbi Dr. Belzar Brat. Have a wonderful Shabas.