Moed Katan (III) - The fear of learning Moed Katan explored (Part 2)

[Music] okay rabbi dr eliezer brought we're here for round three and we cut them after round two we stopped after the resharing you were talking about all the resharing him that wrote swarm and learned availos and misa you spoke about their own banners in depth you could have gone on for another hour but let's talk about some of the chronium the swarm that were written by nym and get to the modern day preschool and then just a list a contemporary list of all the swarm i guess sort of a bibliography a minor bibliography on foreign okay so first thing is um one last source relating to in the times of the reci rashinum learning i told you i i mentioned last time around that i was i'm looking for do we know yeshivas or in curriculums of yeshivas anything about it that they learnt might cut them so i just found that there was a safer written in the third it seems to be it's unclear when it was written but let's assume it was written in the 1300s and it's in it's a few pages the manuscript survived that has a say there how you for the shiva's what to learn from young age and on so when it talks about learning talmud it says you should start with sram you should start with drum then move on starting with brachus go on to might but you and you learn the entire mayan then you go on to nashim and then tennessee et cetera et cetera so it's clear and they also had at the same time they did learn where where they weren't where there's no tamil badly so we see that that that at least in this it's very hard to know because we don't know much about this particular work um what um but we do see that they learned my cotton as a lean wood it was official lemon okay now uranum is much harder um and i'll explain about it explain what i mean it's much harder to know um what was going on and why is that one would assume that by now with so much literature out there and we're constantly being supplied with more and more literature that we would know a lot about the shiva the shivas from the mean let's say from the marshal the rama and onwards um or even a drop earlier whenever the cut off point of roshan rakhine begins and what they learned in the yeshivas what was the let's say today we know this is what's called the massachusetts what was the shivashima in those days um and even though a lot has been written about the shivas or attempt to collect a lot of information about these shivas and one such person was a fellow mordechai breuer did a very nice job called in a are called a massive worker called ali torah but when it comes when you try to when you read the chapter about what was the exact curriculum it's lacking this very it's very hard they don't there's not so many sources now it could be there really is sources it's just that it requires a lot a lot of research to figure this out anyway bottom line is um and so i started to try to see is there a way to figure out what what acharanum learned in their yeshivas so one very prominent famous akron early on was the marsha marsha what's significant to marsha is that he emphasized in a few places in his writings that he only published or um in his parish only material that he discussed with talmidim with his tell me then he was a we know he was a very big rashashiva as a and furthermore in one place in one of his writings he writes that he was at the urid which was in those days like the big fear for a few that took place for a few weeks and and he writes that since he was not able to he was very busy and at these you redeem they would be very busy with dealing with the good islam such as the martial they were busy dealing with all different issues of the cloud um and many other things happened at this urid um talking about um just sometimes a big dini taiwa had to be um dealt with et cetera et cetera so um he he there was a few black that he didn't give sheer on so we see so anyway he but he emphasized this already in his in his abdomen his writings that he that that he was a very that what he printed is with tamidim so what significant is when you open up your the back you'll see that there's the marsha on my cotton even available so again it doesn't necessarily mean that there's pages and pages but it's clear that he according to what what he describes what his parish is about that he gave share on it now what's more significant about this is is in recent you know a few years ago a fellow named yitzuk yudolov wrote an incredible article where he documents showing that pretty much let's say we just discussed the urine so basically at these rids they would announce what massachusetts being learned the russia shivas were all there after they were the daily time mostly would come in they'd have all different types of meetings and they also decided which masek and all the yeshivas in europe whatever however many they were we don't even know how many there really were we don't even know how many talmudim they were but whatever was they decided so therefore um so now he he maps out that um his article that he's that he's talking about is more that they used to use similar today a lot of times especially younger children when they start learning marley parents don't want them to ruin a whole gemara so they have this like paperback thing it's um you buy in the store i'm on parrot so in those days they had like a paperback tomorrow because the mars were very expensive and student children were always children so they also ruined it now but the point was is that they would he's able to document and show that throughout europe they will learn the same so now possibly it could be i'm suggesting that if the marshal did it and he gave share my content it could be that um other yeshivas but now problem is i don't know how many other issues there were at the time we're we're in the we're in the dark of after a lot anyway but looking around we we see with some other assuming that this is true other big resistance we don't really know how many massacres they really learned how big was their yeshiva cycle so to speak if they learned if forget it or mayakat don't even okay so it's a very hard thing to get to the bottom of but as we move a little later um um let's say into the we're into the mid into the mid 1700s so we have those a great goggle the carbonassano of revile we spoke a little bit about him in a previous um and i think when he was talking about tightness i spoke about him and his relationship with the son theo so his son distributed vidya that i mentioned then he talks about his father he says his father was rashiva which we know and he taught shas from beginning to end okay now it's interesting is is that if you open up your rush in the back so the carbonyl channel is one of the most important perversion on the rush and you can see it's very thorough even over here on availus interestingly enough in the first um [Music] in the first presentation that we gave america about rashi so it's clear he knew something was up with rashi because he's constantly referring to the rashi and the riff okay anyway moving further along another yid um i believe he must have been rush yeshiva at the time bermuda karlberg so in a letter that he wrote to a friend in sev in 1806 he also refers he's talking about some other things and he says by the way i'm learning and and um here's akasha that i have but it it's not clear if that's referring to his yeshiva could be he was learning it himself i'm sorry okay anyway but looking looking um around i still as i said in the outset of the previous presentation that i'm still research is ongoing okay but now we move on to litter solita so i said last time let's say if you look in the gra of course the gra learned um everything all areas of tire that's not a question but people that were somewhat influenced not necessarily influenced by them directly but in literature places let's say on the first presentation i spoke quickly about a safer sentence possum and of the titus aaron they have nice amount of literature on the availa sections of availus um okay but let's say we move to vladimir actually she is velazzon um do we know what they learned in velajian at all so now here it's also interesting the legend we have a lot about the yeshiva we have excellent work from fair available in hebrew and in english and he maps out so much about the yeshiva and then there's other there's a lot of other literature about the yeshiva there's autobiography accounts of people that learned in the yeshiva so you think you could find something that's going on in the yeshiva and it's interesting is it's famous everyone knows and velojan they supposedly learned shas from beginning to end now what we what stanford is able to document that um he has some sources about it and there is a more recent source so to speak because he didn't learn in valerian but he has a direct message of yeshua salvation in his famous essay called man he also talks about how in in the vlog he says q they introduced the study of the entire talmud from beginning to end from braho to nida and they didn't skip over the as the massachusetts that were unlearned um bottom line is that rakhine gave shear on all areas and so did the native um that's what with salvation says now from looking around in um when stanford when he talks about it he does not have sources of mice so what was the curriculum or even if they were sheer given how many people really attended it's very weak but so one place you will look is i mentioned in one of the previous um one of the previous presentations is that you look at the miranni suddenly because it seems that that's where interestingly enough my cotton there's nothing there okay now to say that the native didn't have what to say about my cotton is very strange because if you open up the hamik shayla he has tons of torah related to availis so he had what to say so one answer is that even if that even though muramisata does represent his shirum but it's not all shirom i'm saying he was a russian for many many years it's [Music] as a matter of fact when you look for suvis there's almost nothing there to say that didn't give sharon is unlikely okay other people that learned in velajin or were affiliated we spoke about last time these people they all have about but i was able to find one account of someone that learned to malaysian who describes valajin in 1889 his name was he says when i came to valajim they were learning he's talking about 1889 and lita they learned [Music] normally play he says and then he says in his autobiography he says normally in little they only learned nasser and ezekiel i never heard shira on this so um and he said he didn't go to the sheer and he says and others say that a lot of people didn't go to all the shiram especially it sounds like murakami was giving shiron kachin people didn't go necessarily they didn't talk to them as much as today to hear from who knows how people will go running anyway bottom line is that they probably it seems they did learn um they did learn money content how many times for example in all the 90 years of the yeshiva we don't know because we don't know much about it it would fit with valajin that they did learn it for example there's a famous at the end of parakeet of office where he says well when he talks about half of what happened he says it's possible to learn now from he says and and there's other areas there's no such thing as the area of not being relevant it can all play out in halacha in learning and everything so the village and tradition it doesn't make sense that they would not learn my there's nothing against my content that they shouldn't have learned now but in the last presentation we were dealing with we were showing that it's possible that some people held that there's some type of sakana or everything what is there anything do we find anything about in the village literature that maybe would deal with that so there's other massachusetts especially in more recent years and frasier is for sure and also in other places that they don't like to learn with bahrain let's certain parts and other and other masatas and other areas need the and the question is do you or should you or shouldn't you learn it with bachram anyway the native in a in an unbelievable piece in its participle he talks about in the parasha of zav and kerry and all these in yanum so he says that you might think he has a whole beautiful piece and bottom line is he says you might think that only mysha heard it and that was um that that what happens is it triggers in the marshal so you might think you should be mine and deeper in teaching it he says no you should not and then he says he ends off there's no such thing as coming out of it so it could be you could take out from this amazing native that possibly will fit then that's why they probably did learn money anyway just to conclude one more last um one last piece relating to litha that deres so i i was asking um rabunyan hamburger if he had sources about my cotton so he sent me a line that darris's autobiography which i missed in my in my going through it basically when he was young he was go he writes he learned through all of in a year but he skipped the and they learned not only did they learn in one year but they learned to have an ezra twice but they skipped simon you'd zion why um someone told them to skip it watson when you die in it it's a hat one of the issues that talks about in simulated design is heterozygous okay but interestingly enough in i was looking around and i came across i don't know how i missed it uh when i um how i missed it myself but i'm safer is my time in his notes on this he says someone there was a year of charlie rav that that ended up coming to america who corresponded a lot with alderas he learned in velajin and um this yid wrote this rav was corresponding to that there has something to do with jokus availus and he says something about a certain love and then he says the rav it seems the rav didn't know that was he says he says not even knows this and he says and then he brings down that a messiah which is uh um it's hard to find i'm not able to locate it but it's a literacy messiah that some people said they used to fast in the beginning of okay so ad khan the makairis i found to date about litter and if they learned might got them wow that's fascinating especially the maya machine of the native and precious material one quick question you mentioned that karen i really care never actually learned to volation or that was just part of what you were saying as far and they wrote under my cup um so it's interesting is he's a top what i call velaz i don't know where he's the talmud of legendary could be some people call him really more like a talmud movie so no no no sorry sorry no i made a mistake once again kara i already said this last um a few times ago karen and i did not learn in velojin as far as i'm able to tell most people think he did his brother the michigan as the active did sorry the paranoia what i mean is the karaoke but he's far uh he's a literature talmud he was very he was learned to have some many years with his brother the mishkan is yakiv he's very into the guru so him also we see him learning intense anyway but you're right i i made a mistake it's not velocin um he did not learn vaginas at least according to my latest um conclusion okay so again let's wrap this up with the current or the modern day poisskin and the list of the safari monovales okay so very so very quickly with maisha in the safer in the series maisha some people like it some people don't in volume one of misaris maisha he was asked about learning available he said it's not a problem um um and he says he does and okay he it sounds like it's not a problem according to him interestingly and repeat in a beautiful piece in the tish above page tough llama tests he says that he held that you should learn you could learn it it's not a problem he knew about the some safer that we quoted in the previous where people showed that some say it was and he said that many many times are not expert in this area when he was a young person he went badafka to learn it not only that when he gave shirum to balabatham for 50 years he made sure that they learned this also um and he held it's a very important area of tire you should learn and you could see in la marshall he has a lot of um he deals with this a lot now more than that is that i i once came across a piece one of the sperm one of the most famous in recent uh decades on this is the gesherkai from rooftop kashinsky so he wrote to savage already in in so he's a generation really before richland zalman so in the beginning of one volume he has a series of troopers which he asks he says i'm asking a few different cadillac herzog or if you guys are frank and then he says i'm asking and he says he's a upper coming star who um that's how he refers to him reading this is in the early 40s and it seems as other chuvas so a few years ago a massive safer came out on hilkosavelis from a talmud of rebellionship with questions that he asked for ashif it's hundreds of pages we're talking about over 700 pages in the beginning of the work he talks about should you learn how he says of course you have to learn to be healed like all year is a tiger there's nothing to worry about cerebral yoshi he says what about something nothing you shall learn it and that's it's fine you don't have to be gracious with the some cypher um um about it now and then and lamasa is an excellent safer of all different halachus of of um in a give-and-take manner with his talmud over here i remember when in when i was learning in in the mirror and i remember going viral yashev in in the in um those days it was going back to 25 years approximately asheville was giving shared daily to malikatan and you could go into the local i'm thinking to conclude this is with the rokhan kanyevsky today you always have to quote kanyevskiy and these type of vinayani khayakins he also says you can learn my cotton it's not a problem tyra is not magic which fits into what we're learning about now he says if you want you can give some tzedakah and this sack of akai kenyaki is quoted in multiple different but really his father the stipler i saw recently also said a similar such thing ad khan the succumb of some of the more recent um that we've had that talk about let's close this out with a list of of swarm on hill us and the like okay so first we have um printed recently from manuscript to market missionary called [Music] has a similar type of work as he's famous for shari chuva with his brother um there's a there is um beautiful safer then you have um the more if you go a little uh more recent you'll have the call by jose velas from the casille greenwald excellent safer that was originally printed under a different name is updated it's two parts a lot of people don't know about the other part then you have if you're going more we mentioned already just on one aspect of hoku surveillance we have and shred the blitzky rocket for zucchini more recently was updated and incredible ascama from rev ryan greenblatt where he says how every rob should know about to save her ian dick safe on every prada pratt on her screen um okay then um then just to conclude two other areas one is on kaddish it causes all the fights many fights um who should be for the armor also so does it say from a fellow above safa college available on hebrew books the more recent safer called diverse militia and much earlier not everyone knows about the river from zama and to conclude when we talk about misa and yanum of the of death and everything relating to a lot of these halachus so one of the earliest sparring was the mavraya which was the safer you look even reading how he quotes it often but even earlier and the same there was a safer which was printed numerous numerous times [Music] for a bibliography of many swarm on in the back of both volumes of nithic of real available on hebrew books each one has different many of the difference farm that are out there in jose vales what we see from all this is available was learned but might be there it was learned only more by marie era as opposed to hamaina okay excellent thank you for coming back three times familiar cotton hope everybody will enjoy these three episodes and looking forward to doing it again sometime soon thank you very much