Strict Justice and Loving Kindness (Rabbi Dovid Gottleib) (Jewish Philosophy)

I came to appreciate some of what's going on so I'll share it to you that way um if you look in the sitter this is the art school sitter page 26 or 27. there's the ashkenaz magical sitter it's a blessing we say every morning just below the middle of the page in the main text it says but we are your people members of your Covenant children of avraham your beloved until he took an oath of Mount Maria the offering offspring of Isaac his only son who was bound atap the altar Unity of Jacob your firstborn son who because of the love which you adored him the joints which you delighted in him you named Israel and Yeshua okay I'm interested in just three tiny details from this short paragraph three Patriarchs I mentioned Abraham Isaac and Jacob who are they related to let's take a look it's avraham your beloved who's you who's the you well the the the type saying gives it away because the EUR is capital capitalized why so it's Abraham you God's beloved he's related to you as as beloved next slide Isaac his only son who's he avraham is his father right so I guess Isaac's being related to avram okay then the next slide Jacob your firstborn son well isn't that a little odd that Abraham and Jacob are related to God and Isaac's related to Abraham I mean certainly not consistent and there happens to be another text which is very rare which says Isaac you are bound one capital Y relating him to God which would be consistent all three being related to God but the vast vast majority of don't do that so why do they do it our way that was one thing which struck me and I thought boy that's strange and it's a good question and you can have to ask people this question it's not a bad idea now take the blue book and look at page 129. in last week's part show Isaac is blessed by God twice and these two blessings have a shared unique feature which of ours I know is unique to these blessings it's not uh imitated anywhere else verse 2 that's chapter 6 26 verse 2. do not descend to Egypt dwell on the land I shall indicate to you soldier of this land and I will be with you and bless you with you and your Offspring will I give all these lands and establish the oath that I sworeth to Abraham your father I will increase you are speaking of the stars of the heavens I will give you give to your Offspring all these lands and all the nations of the Earth shall bless themselves by you and your offspring because why am I promising all this to you Isaac because Abraham prayed my voice served by safeguards my Commandments my decrees and my torahs you know up to the last verse you might think Isaac is Earth pleased and you know grateful and feeling some importance and some self worth and so forth and so on but then the pin punctures the balloon listen Isaac don't don't climb out of your chair this is all because of Abraham it's all because of paper plus he is because of Abraham nope now take a look on page 133 foreign top of the page shampoo to him thanks to Isaac that night and said I am the god of your father Abraham fear not for I Am With You I will bless you and increase your offspring because why am I giving you this blessing because of Abraham my servant and that's it those Isaac's two blessings hmm Jacob gets blessings nothing like it uh Jacob gives blessings to his children nothing like it Moses blessed the Jewish people Nothing Like It blessing to you is a blessing for you here this is the only two texts of blessings that we have God blessing Isaac it's one in the previous Parish where it says he blessed but I'll say what he said and both are clearly consistently because of Abraham foreign well in a way it matches what you have in the sitter right consider related Isaac to Abraham instead of leaving to God here God says I'll give you a blessing because of Abraham now here's the third thing that struck me Isaac is meeting with the committee said didn't the characteristic of strict Justice and there are times when that characteristic is is the theme of a certain period of time or a certain holiday particular Rosh Hashanah is definitely the theme of strict Justice and therefore you would associate it with Isaac and if you take a look at the readings that we have in the Torah on the first and second day they're both about Isaac but the first day is about the birth of Isaac coming from Abraham and the second day is about the Acadia where Isaac is almost sacrificed by Abraham so it's not as if Isaac is Center Stage and the first one is an infant being born the second one he's under the control of and under the domination of and almost under the slaughter of Abraham why would that be the message you want to send on the holiday which should carry Isaac's identity one thing that's in common to all three places is that Isaac doesn't stand alone Isaac doesn't stand he doesn't stand on his own he stands only as connected to and perhaps an offshoot of Abraham that's nothing for Jacob he's not related to either his father or his grandfather that way there's something's going on here now this is reflective of a fundamental piece of Jewish philosophy which is found in the philosophical works and even more in the capitalistic works and that is that there's a complex and subtle relationship between two qualities one is loving kindness and one is strict Justice both of which are qualities with which God interacts with the world both of them are also qualities of lives where a life has a certain emphasis or certain Focus particular for Abraham and Isaac and relationship between the the two has to admit of a synthesis of some kind because there's a third through Patriarchs is Jacob and the way God deals with the world those three words repeat over and over again God told his love and kindness keyboard is strict Justice and Nora is something called awe or awesomeness which has its own definition which I will try to describe to you so by looking at this situation in terms of this deep philosophical and capitalistic idea these sources that I showed you I'll show you are quite reasonable quite understandable and the metal lesson that I would like you to absorb from this is pay attention to details they're not arbitrary even the smallest detail of the text of the sitter or any other of our texts can be expression of deep and important ideas don't overlook details and when you find a detail that doesn't fit be happy because you're probably onto something deep hold on to it think about it ask people about it it's not it's not a matter of trivia now on the surface the two characteristics the love and kindness of the one hit and strict Justice on the other are contradictory when I say on the surface I don't mean to deny it later and say it's only an appearance they are contradictory but even though the contradictory they tolerate a certain partnership in a certain subtle way of working together even deriving one from the other first of all let's understand why they're contradictory let's imagine interaction between you and Philip now in one interaction Philip is a worker who you've hired and you signed a contract and every week you pay him his salary assuming that he works so he comes into your office on Friday afternoon with the supervisor's report of how much he worked and you pay him according to the contract that interaction is an acting of interaction of Justice you committed yourself and he's fulfilled this part of the bargain and now you're feeling if you didn't you'd be cheating him you owe him that money and you'd be behaving in an unjust manner if you didn't give it to him the other hand imagine an interaction with Philip you've discovered that his anniversaries next week and you're going to say Philip happy anniversary here's something for you and your wife and you give him something that is an interaction of love and kindness because he doesn't he hasn't earned it you don't owe it to him he has no claim on it it's a free gift that's what loving kindness does so if I define justice as getting what you've earned what you have a right to what you deserve and if I Divine loving kindness as getting healthy which you didn't earn you don't have a right to you don't deserve then the interactions are contradiction you cannot possibly fulfill both of these criteria at the same time then it becomes a puzzle how can the Jewish tradition say that the attribute of strict Justice is a derivation from loving-kindness can you derive from a premise it's opposite usually if you do that it proves the premise is false if a implies not a then a is false let me assuming aliens are in a contradiction still Jewish tradition says that this attribute of strict Justice is born out of loving-kindness so that's a challenging idea indeed our tradition tells us that the whole purpose of creation is loving kindness full stop so if there are any other principles with which God interacts with the world they have to be an aspect of applying love and kindness the way that works is this admission of charity maimonides has eight levels of charity from least valuable to most valuable the next to last the seventh out of eight is where the donor and recipient don't know each other it's doubly anonymous and the reason why that's very very good almost the best is because giving and receiving charity creates embarrassment it undermines the self-confidence and self-esteem of a recipient Civic is being treated as a failure he's not providing for himself it is to incompetent dependence that we give charity like our children who can't do anything for themselves I won't set the age up until which that continues especially in our society maybe it's 35. uh well a little sir okay um so it creates embarrassment and therefore it's a kindness for the recipient not to know the donor donor not the recipient in that way it avoids that embarrassment that's the next the best better than that is giving someone a job now almost always when you give someone a job the person receiving the job knows who's giving it to him so you're sacrificing anonymity and still it's better why is it better because it solves the same problem in a much more fundamental way the reason why charity embarrasses is because recipient is getting what he gets for nothing it's a symptom of failure and incompetence we give someone a job he's earning it on the contrary you're reinforcing his competence his ability his creativity his usefulness his value it's good for his self-confidence it's a very beautiful thing because you don't have to give him the job you're not required to give him the job but when you get in the job you give him an opportunity to earn the money he gets at the end of the week so that's the highest form of Charity now let's Analyze That when you give him the job you're giving him something that he hasn't earned he has no right to something he has never claim on the giving of the job is an act of of Charity of loving kindness but what does giving the job do giving the job sets up a continuing Justice relationship every Friday night Friday afternoon from then on you're giving you money that he earned the greatest act of kindness is to set up a continuing Justice relationship so we talked about a contradiction between loving kindness and Justice we're talking about a single interaction there is a contradiction but when you set up a continuing Justice relationship that can be the highest action of kindness yeah the person receiving um doesn't even know that they're receiving something in that case wouldn't there be a sense of like separation between would bear receiving and okay you're asking what about the case where you're giving charity doesn't even know Thanksgiving charity the only a man a case where I can imagine imagine two cases I don't think I don't think they're going to change the point of making one is to hire somebody for busy work he thinks he's doing something important but uh you're doing just to be able to give him money and but the reason why I work is because he thinks he's doing something productive he thinks he's doing something valuable and therefore he feels entitled to the money and that's how you're getting around the the Merit in real charity so that's the same idea it's just that he doesn't know the truth of the matter I suppose you could plant oil under his garden and then you know and then have him Discover it and become uh receive money that way I suppose you could do that but even though he does not receiving charity he doesn't have the satisfaction and the the investment in his self-esteem of having earned it now he just feels lucky so you're taking off the negative side of Charity but you haven't provided the positive side of building up his his self-esteem yeah your point where there would be there there's not a sense of earning that's right there's no sense of there's no sense of earning so so this is where the act the the um quality of strict Justice can be borne out of the quality of the of uh of loving kindness and this is not just a way of explaining what the rambam is talking about and I I'm sure that meant it this way as well to explain how God runs the world because according to one explanation of why we live in a world of Free Will and we live a world where the appearance of things is natural we don't see God's Providence explicitly and what goes on because God has to hide his presence from us is so that when we finally get to the reward he wants to give us the world to come we won't be undermined by receiving something for nothing the question arises why doesn't God just create the world to come start with why has he put us through this preliminary Mission says this is like the entrance way to a great banqueting hall okay put me in the bagel will serve me the dinner but I have to go to the entranceway for so one explanation which is codified your Charlie is the idea of the bread of Shame if you've got all of that goodness that God wants to give straight and you had no sense of earning it on your own the interaction would be one of a helpless incompetent receiving something good and that is not going to create the kind of sense of value for yourself which earning it creates so although this explanation has a certain weakness I'm not going to go into it now unless somebody pushes me um but this is this is a standard a standard explanation so now where are we left we're left with the idea that the existence of of this ongoing relationship of justice is only because it implements loving-kindness that's why it exists so now in the city where we started there it's talking about who are we who are the Jewish people in what way do we relate to God differently from all other peoples and it speaks of Abraham and his relationship to God which is the attribute of loving kindness and then comes Justice well how does Justice reach us how did Justice applied to us only because Justice is an offshoot of loving kindness so when it matches Isaac is that Isaac's relationship to God he hasn't got any independent relationship to God the blessings again the blessings that he gets because of Abraham he can't stand on his own Isaac so we say Isaac his only one you talk about Isaac as we've been related to to Abraham not really to God Jacob relates to God because as we will see Jacob has his own possession of loving kindness his possession will be kind this makes it possible for him to have an independent relationship to God but Isaac can add now when it comes to Rosh Hashanah is the day of strict judgments even though we talk about kippers being here but there's utterly different because your Gipper the theme is atonement cleansing you're cleansed from what judgment says you failed and the gamura points out that the word SATA uh is um 300 and um 300 and so certain physics is 364. and it's because the certain can right 359 plus five 364. as because the certainly can accuse above accuse the Jewish people of Fairly and demand Justice 364 days a year but not in Kippur so didn't the idea of strict Justice is overshadowed a new Kipper by the fact that there's no accuser that's pretty hard to actually come to a conclusion of dinner there's no Accuser the idea in your Cooper is in Rosh Hashanah the accusations were were expressed and the evidence was presented and now something has to be done about it and if people do chuva so then what's done about the outstanding obligations of din is to wipe them away Roshan's not like that I was just a day when the trial is on and the prosecutor presents his case and still we ask for mercy now on the day in which the prosecutor stating his case how can we ask for Mercy how do we do that you know in American Jewish Prudence which isn't always right and which isn't always parallel but here the defendant does not enter a plea for Mercy until he's pronounced guilty before he's pronounced guilty he's hoping that he'll get a verdictive of not guilty if it comes out guilty then he can say okay okay I'm guilty or you pronounce me guilty might not be really be guilty it could be a mistake but don't carry out the full extent of Justice please give me mercy because you don't give you don't ask for Mercy before the verdict how is it that Rosh Hashanah we can ask for Mercy which which the prayers do in in great measure and the answer is because strict judgment doesn't stand on its own does it stand in itself if it were just the day of judgment you couldn't do that it would be inconsistent with the theme of the day but judgment is as offshoot an application of rather than kindness loving kindness is present also always there's no time when love becomes isn't present because that's the only theme of creation so it's like having interaction with the vice president and saying Mr Vice President I'm sorry if this is your view and this is your plan I don't accept it and I'm going to appeal to the president it's always relevant to appeal to the president because he stands about the vice president so therefore what do we read about Isaac we read about Isaac being born from Abraham on the first day so he comes into the world only as a product of Abraham second day even more dramatically we let Abraham taking control of Isaac and almost sacrificing him it shows that the application of of Street Justice is strictly under the control of and by the leave of loving kindness that gives the day the correct Isaac theme that it has in terms of its applications us yeah is that saying women kindness differently I think that seems sort of abstract like what does it mean I didn't get the Yakov yet you'll see how it's different okay so now let's go back to where we started from but in a single interaction loving kindness on strict Justice will dictate different outcomes and there can be cases where there's tension between the two outcomes and only one can apply so one has to stay precedence over the other this is a model for I think a concept which which needs a model and that is that God is described as strong or is right hand described as strong what would strength mean as applied to God strength means the ability to overcome resistance for strength to be significant it would have to be some kind of significant resistance that has to be overcome listen it's tough resistance is tough but he can overcome it what kind of resistance to the Creator could be considered significant resistance that I would have to say but don't worry he's strong he can overcome it what a Galaxy you know 16 galaxies what are we talking about he's the Creator he gives them existence by his will the only way in which you could imagine resistance for which it would be significant to say the guy possessive strength is if it's internal resistance if so to speak God has certain commitments and the commitments conflict with one another and then one has to overcome the other since they're both Divine principles they're both Divine elements they're on a par and if one resist the other that's resistance that's not a joke and then if you say that one has the power to resist to overcome the other that's significant strength so here uh in in different contexts different the outcome isn't always the same um loving kindness wants to give Shri Justice with holes did he earn it or did he not earn it does he deserve it or doesn't he deserve it if not don't give it to him so sometimes loving kindness overwhelms Justice For example says in part 2 chapter 8 of the way of God he says suppose strict Justice demands the destruction of the whole world because the whole world has come to a point where it's just exists are not justified at that point love and kindness says no your vice president I'm president I tell you no you only exist by my leave and I don't give you that much secondly when Justice does apply it applies often in a kindly way in a generous way in a supportive way in you know in a way that builds up rather than just tearing down we are told when you punish your child punish the action don't punish the child don't push the person how do you do that it's a lovely idea it sounds very intuitive but how do you do it so here's an example you have a child who's beating up his sibling and after mourning and he continues you say listen you cannot be here well you're behaving you cannot be here you have to go to your room but we grew for an hour okay she take him up to his room he said by the way why are you in your room you might enjoy this book what's the message the message is you can't be downstairs with the family you can't the way you're behaving is wrong it's victimizing your brother and it's and it's and it's uh disobeying the rules that we have for the house so you're going to be upstairs not giving up on that you can't be downstairs but I don't want you to be suffering upstairs I'll give you something to do though what are you saying to him I believe in you I want you to I care about you I want you to be happy but I want you to know that certain types of behavior are unacceptable I'm punishing the behavior I'm not punishing the person so this is the so to speak the kind face that comes together with uh with the with the with the punishment which means that it's an expression ultimately of loving kindness sometimes the opposite has to be done sometimes the loving-kindness will spoil the child Josef shifto he who holds back the rod of chastisement hates his child we will experienced children who didn't get the appropriate we called spoiled children can't take reverses and can't lose if they lose they they lose their temperature temper and they can't they can't abide it and they cheat in order to in order to win these these children are crippled so sometimes loving kindness has to hold backstroke Justice and sometimes just has to hold back loving kindness and there's this tension between them now Jacob is an amalgam of the two characteristics amalgam in the appropriate measure and the question is how that amalgam works I struggle with that question for years I thought of all sorts of philosophical mathematical scientific analogies of how two things work together and how they could be interacting with one another and how the outcome would work none of them fit uh I became quite frustrated about it I spoke to my oldest son he said Abba the reason why your analogies don't fit is because you're using secular analogies for a Jewish idea if you're trying to understand Jewish idea find a Jewish model I thought oh that's interesting thought you know cross-cultural and so on and so on but I didn't have any Jewish models and explain to me a classic Model from the Kabbalah which is the model of or and Clee a light and a vessel at its most brutal and crude you have an opaque vessel you have a spark inside the vessel which is burning when you close the vessel since it's opaque no light escapes that could happen but it's not the normal the normal relationship second model is where you have a translucent vessel there's light inside some of the light penetrates the walls there is some illumination outside of course the light inside might be white light as the walls are orange the illumination will be orange so it isn't the same as the light inside but it's a product of the light inside interacting with the walls of the vessel that's a way in which the light of the vessel interact to to produce a product here's a more Dynamic model imagine a person who needs to do something but needs to remain anonymous so he disguises himself if it will be discovered that he's doing it then the effective ones will be ruined so he gets the disguised artist who makes him look quite unlike his normal appearance and he carries it out now what he wants to do is he wants to achieve a certain effect but he wants the effect to be untraceable to him as the agent so what happens depends upon the person but how it appears depends upon the disguise that's a different model of how two characteristics can work together one simple application of this is discipline um sometimes if you have to correct the child you can you can explain it to him calmly and say listen this is not the sort of thing that we do and I'm telling you not to do it and if you do it there will be consequences and I'm hoping that you will listen to me and otherwise we'll have to take consequences let's say you spilling the drink that he doesn't like on the floor on the carpet there'll be consequences right you could tell them kindly stress the fact that I want you to have a good life I want you to be happy and these things will you'll see as years go on that these things are good for you and you don't trust you he does then you apply it or not when you're out with your five-year-old are you tell him don't cross the street by yourself and you're distracted it starts to cross the street that's not what you do you run out into the street you grab him lift them off his feet pull them back to the side of there and yell at him because he makes a mistake like this he might be dead that was no time for chat is stroking his cheek and telling him how she loved him and telling him it can't be done like this Now's the Time to frighten him so you hopefully if you have your meat figures out of the control if you don't get angry but you act angry so your disguise is anger what you're feeling inside is fear and concern for your child and love for your child but if he feels your love and concern he won't take the admonition seriously and next time he'll go back out into the street so you have to put on that show this is where loving kindness is the or it's the light which is within and Street Justice is the appearance on the outside in order to have the effect the loving kindness wanted to have in the long run there's a term for that in contemporary psychological practices it's called tough love the toughness has to be clear to the recipient otherwise it won't work there's love behind it but the love can't dispel the toughness because it dispels the toughness it won't have the effect that it's supposed to have this is a model for how uh Jacob combines loving-kindness and um and and strict Justice when I say it this way now you see very well that he has his own possession of loving kindness is loving kindness as the inner principle and the inner motivation for what happens but the appearance has to be modified in order for it to have the appropriate effect so now I'm asking who can direct Express a relationship to God directly in this world since everything God does is loving kindness Abraham with loving kindness pure and simple Jacob has his Inner Essence driving the mechanism his loving kindness and the outer appearance of the outer appearance of justice so he can also relate to God directly only Isaac can't because Isaac is the principle of strict Justice that principle is an offshoot it's inherently an option it's inherently secondary and that's what's expressed in the three the three places that I that I mentioned to you yeah well the the purpose of okay let me let me just say a word of explanation here maybe this will help this is you see somebody doing something hey say why are you doing that Cosby 4B I'm doing a a for B that those words a for B could have at least two different explanations two concepts two different concepts let's say you see me building a a tower in my backyard you see why are you building a tower in your backyard say listen you see that hill over there I want to see over that Hill and it's blocking my vision so I'm building the tower so that I can see over the hill there it means I'm building the tower as a means to the end of seeing over the hill I suppose I finished the the tower in the middle of the night the tower is finished but I won't see it till tomorrow because it's dark now contrast that where you see me building a tower in George's backyard you say he got the uh why are you building a tower George's backyard why are you doing that I have to tell you something last month George saved my life he did something for me that was spectacularly useful helpful to me I really he kept me out of a terrible fix I owe George so I found I did a little research I found out what George wants he wants a tower in his backyard why does he want to turn his back is he the hill he wants to see over the hill he wants the tires backyard so George happens to be in the Bahamas for the next month so I am anonymously building a tower in his backyard to pay his favor okay I'm building the tower in order to repay his favor but what now is the relationship between building the tower and repaying the favor here is that means to an end here it's identical the building of the tower is repaying the favor when I finished building the tower I finished repaying the favor he now has a tower so here we say to a for B it's not that a is a means to be would be something else a is a cause and a b is the effect no it's two different descriptions of the same thing but one description doesn't reveal my motivation and the other description does reveal my motivation so the relationship is a very different relationship you see me ready waving my hand like this I say why are you everything like this I said because I'm signaling the Spy to go ahead with the plan now the waving of the hand is signaling the spine it's not about waving the hand to catch flies then I'll throw the flies at him no the waving of the hand is signaling this box it's not a means to signal in the Spy but when you see me waving my hand can't imagine why I'm doing it when I say I'm signaling this body now you know why I'm doing it you know the purpose in the action not an external effect of the action so now if we say that loving kindness is primary and Street Justice is secondary there are two different things we might need we might mean that strict Justice is a means to a further effect down the line of practicing loving-kindness or it could mean that under these circumstances strict Justice is the act of loving kindness It's the way loving kindness applies itself into these circumstances I think it's possible that you have both types but often it's the very Act of strict Justice which is the application of loving kindness this is what I told you the name of the Rumba when you when you pay the worker at the end of the week your interaction as an interaction of strict Justice and the kindness you're doing to him is treating him with straight Justice of that as well I'm not quite getting you you say today that people oh so yeah I do I do want to just mention this so now you might have the following impression it says okay so Abraham is loving kindness if you practice though he kind of all the other kindness then when a situation needs strict Justice you're not going to get it and if you have just straight Justice for sure you're gonna miss out on loving kindness but Jacob combines them combines them in the ideal way from now on the principle that ought to govern the world is Jacob this stands in contradiction to something which firms say typically that today when you talk about a person's Charisma where in the in the structure of ultimate Divine qualities where does each person have the root of his soul what particular quality is he connected to instead of saying that all Jews now have the root of their soul in Jacob we say some have an Abraham some Heaven Isaac because I'm having Jacob so once Jacob's in the world once Jacob's been created why isn't Jacob the pattern for everybody I think the answer is something about Riverson said on Chavez confirmed this and the answer is that um what what the Creator wants is a continuing process of combining and and creating the this the synthesis it's not that he because bro who made the sentences of that now it flows on its own no we have a mixed population some rooted in Abraham some moves in Isaac someone in Jacob and the Abraham and Isaac people have to contribute their characteristics to molding the Jacob character the process of amalgamation has to continue now I I can't go any further than that I can't explain why that's necessary I think that's the message so that and that tells us what we're doing why couldn't him and otherwise I haven't gotten that far yeah yeah you're just wondering when you talk about you know doing um a 4B as like for itself the example of building the tower for George when we say that you're building the tower for the means of of a satisfying George's uh desire to have a tower look I don't want to play with play with English here but there's a difference between a cause and an effect where in the case of building a tower for myself which I finished the middle of the night the building of towers are caused and the effect is seeing over seeing seeing over the hill and they are definitely different from one another um it can't have a cause and effect where the cause is identical to the effect cannot do that and sometimes when you say I did a4b or a in order that b or sometimes you could use the word means a is a means to be but what you mean in the in the secondary case is that a b are identical that's a different kind of relationship has just two different inscriptions descriptions of the same thing as I said one description reveals what your motivation is and another description doesn't reveal what you're You're Made Of motivations like the example I gave the other day in different contexts you see me handing 500 to somebody and you say why are you doing that he said well I borrowed 500 from him and I'm paying it back I am paying him back it's not that I give him the 500 now so that I can pay back tomorrow giving you the 500 is paying it back once I've given the 500 500 500 it's paid back it's over but why am I hitting a guy 500 because 500 dollars that I'm giving you is paying back alone now you understand why I'm doing it so it's not a means to an end it's that this very event has a different significance that you weren't aware of and that explains my motivation in doing this event I don't think it could be the case the fact that A and B are identical and also that A and B are not identical that sounds to me like a contradiction so I don't think the conscious I'm making is where it's identical or it's not identical I think the people don't they're as familiar with the idea that when they're they are identical not familiar with that idea they don't take it into account so lovely kind of strict Justice sorry um is that sort of purely spiritual level or is it or would it express itself through people's personalities and the interaction with other people as well I'm not going to accept the alternative is that solely spiritual or is it the way it interacts with other people and so on and so on if it's the essence of your spirit it's going to reflect on how you interact with other people and how you interact with yourself and you've noticed that sure I mean not pure I don't think it's hard to find people who are pure one or the other but I have come across people many people who are too strict and especially with themselves I met a guy who and we know about cases like this where you know he he was sold as a child it was a failure because in every example he got 97. and his parents said what about the other three points they never said good they said it was good father in particular said what have the other three points nothing less than a hundred was satisfactory that's insane but he internalized it internalized so either he made extraordinary efforts including cheating to be able to get a hundred or he just went through life depressed that's too too unforgiving a standard of uh of critique so it definitely happens and of course there are people too lacks there are people who are so kind with what they used to call a bleeding heart liberal now he's going with bleeding heart don't call him because he's not Progressive enough um and parents who can't who can't punish children I myself went through this I know I only realized that after my children grew up if a child did something wrong in school and the punishment was to miss out on a trip I would think but he's missing out on the trip and the trip that has certain educational it could be inspirational and so on that I would work it out talk to the school and have him do something extra in place of it until you know he shouldn't miss the trip I only realized later maybe what he needs to learn is that he misses the trip that's a very loud list maybe you missed a couple of trips that would have an effect on well there are real Stakes I missed out all the other kids enjoyed it and everything else and that would have the effect that this trip is supposed to have so so I wanted to preserve the immediate educational gain I think I compromised the long-term gaining character that what taking the laws would have meant I think because uh I was overly invested in the loving kindness side of it and I didn't have the appropriate balance of of strict justice so I I think that as you go through life you have these tools in your mind you start analyzing things in this way then you uh you come to be able to appreciate the variables that are going on in front of you which otherwise you might not okay