1/13/18 Halachos of Hagomel - Rubashkin: is all the celebrating appropriate? - Halacha Headlines

go when Avram Fenice La Colonia by heat a little funky straw elf another baseman he died namely as the liebe Shabbos - Gaeta laughter ba from their hydration they are the no sukima to Munna Somu nights off for me two of us are failing to take a survey labour mom eats ins I wish my chastity go you wanna cry or be made of a young man yes amazing yes what should I beg love a show [Music] we buy my shall I love doobies doctor nice laif Korea keep that Olevia chicane that I forgot I'll be to live who know these to be named provides a condom kalila me not devotional or nationally subtle so command to resort to brother love subin a star yeah yeah [Music] a mu meson I love easy [Music] Monsieur - ha blood when I thought his love [Music] Vinod Oh [Music] welcome to headline this is doublelift enstein tonight we're going to have a really interesting discussion so many of us were overjoyed to see what we considered really an act of richest an act of injustice with the commutation of the prison sentence the 27 year prison sentence that was giving to Shalimar Tahiry Bachchan a father of 10 at 27 years when you had Michael temple he stole 18 million dollar loss he was initially given seven days in jail and then it was it was upon appeal it was increased to two years in jail you have the fellow from s AC Mar Thoma was given nine years on a 276 million dollar theft so look the the fact that a great injustice was done here was without a doubt and we were all overjoyed to see the father back with his children we said eight years was more than enough but here's the question if you go to like sites like Shiva world etc you see comments like this is an extension of what happened to Yosef italic to the marama Ruttenberg the ballot anja the erosion of the Scaletta and Shalimar bastions freedom from prison which is why in many circles I saw many achievers he's going there and they the making party is giving out commercia min candies etc and we're going to have to rub on them today who are discussing whether will this victory lap or whether the stea fication is is it really appropriate and we're going to have a discussion about that we're gonna have on my behalf urn rabbi Horowitz and on the other side of that we will have his lawyer Gary Apfel really an exceptional story four and a half years he did this pro bono imagine so the the the bastions had raised of you know Clara Lakewood Fatma Habad had raised over ten or fifteen million dollars and which went to a number of attorneys who did absolutely it seems nothing and the issuer came from somebody or well maybe they did so I shouldn't going to be criticized for that but here's a Gary fo who took spent four and a half years pro bono we talked about somebody who found his his view his story his mission that should be a really fascinating discussion we're also going to have on a big rough emeriti stroll discussing about bureaucrats hagoromo what do you make do you make a beautiful animal when you leave prison and you're going to find that it's quite complicated it's not nearly what you thought we're going to go into discussion since we're talking about birth cycle we're also going to be speaking to Rabbi Sepher he's a was on the day in honor of Russia Weiss is Benson he's uh yes he's he's a member very prominent Besner as you stroll he's a writer etc prominent particularity is always going to be speaking about Bill Haas I go mill together with rabble anger that somebody leaves prison make it very forgettable and we'll go from there do women Big Bertha guy moles in appropriate today to make a bit of aegyo animal after flying I mean to people they take their family they go to a hotel emeritus role for the office they travel the reading first class or business clothes or Academy and they're eating you know their food and they stay your hotel and you say this is dangerous I mean really would you take your family there so be speaking about burkas archival so this is really should be a fascinating program I'm sure we'll get a lot of comments again we post all the comments the people who say the really who's strongest disagreement those we put them all up I believe that you know the Taira believes in discussion and debate that was always about like is Ben Harmon the beginning of the mission until today there's only one perak in entire mission is that doesn't have homologous and that's a Zima criminals awesome and you know the the bali-ba Chavez say when they talk about the Collier always considered this vaca when it came to a zebu criminals awesome over there there was no mark like if it kills us but otherwise it everything so we believe in discussion and we will certainly have a very passionate discussion tonight before we start I would like to say a little Vaart you know this partial f partial we have D'Amato Asia a sorrow Marcus the matter Moshe the matter make sure the governor says was yay mesh she she Baelish mushes was one of the things was something magicals created by she and Danish merchants what's so magical about the matter maisha so here's something interesting four times five times cover your whole tries to get my shirt to go step up PV agent to redeem Carly's role and what does my should say me and I see who am i but I garnished right he was in the very think me and I see Kayla the next time a sham tries again tells them all somebody she responds Haley I mean only the rack and nobody's going to trust me believe in me leash booboo Kylie the Beauchamp rise again an excited crowd pair cry blushin I Ralph the same three reasons I'm very difficult to understand intellectually that's clapped air rushing in my safar my the way the way my articulation is is difficult and commotion and I actually have a physical handicap for three reasons and he says schläfli all comes again schlubby a fish not said that my shoes is on of me Kelantan he doesn't think he could do it he doesn't think he's worthy he doesn't think he's the appropriate messenger true body shop says him miles abhyasa I mean what Martha be up here we both knew everybody knew what he had in his he and ceases matter Jesus Ashley tell you art sir what's the question and watch the answer yes he had a stick in his hand just a stick but he said must be up her think of it what is a shepherd what is his sniff yes it's to walk it could be to climb but it could also be you could draw a picture with it on the ground the direction you could guide a sheep that straying it happen it could be a weapon he has thought he only had a month in his hands no he had a great power we said I shouldn't tell you words became a monster it's it's powerful the matter you have in your hand your initial most telling Moshe you think you're powerless you have a whole nation of slaves you yourself you're none of you don't know if you can you can't Mars at the Yacht Club what do you have unleash that power that you have in you awaken that power and that master becomes the symbol of UCS miss Ryan how many of us don't know what power we don't we don't know our story you know what's your story this Gary abyssal he was a lawyer at pepper Hamilton he discovered his story he found somebody it was 27 he said he said that's my story I'm giving up my job for that story he found the mission right well here's something interesting you know I heard this tire from you a CV it's like the guy in he said like this he said oh I heard that the vardas like this it says you're not allowed to count Jews but if you give us a mattress I shall you could count the Jews if you could give a player like shoulders you could count as you what is it so so it's a joke don't count the Jew count that counter the money he gave to sadaqa it's a very passive powerful heart if you count choose you're going to be very disappointed there's really not a lot of Jews in the world this 2/10 of 1% it's a tiny fraction there are more Muslims born every two months in the reduce in the world the truths are sociable it's like we're bottle I'd be right away with the two out of two out of a thousand bottle position ten times over fifty right so to do if you count use you're going to be very disappointed but if you look at use contributions they you know it's astonishing in chemistry twenty percent thirty percent of the u.s. total prize winners in chemistry a Nobel Prize thirty three percent of the u.s. total for literature economics thirty nine percent of the world's total of economics 51 in medicine 27 percent of the world's total by two point zero two percent of the world's population that means we contribute a hundred hundred times are in some of these cases it's two hundred times in in in which a record in economics it's almost two hundred times our power weight right it's like cayenne pepper you don't want to put a lot of it into a soup trust me or salt or anything right but it's interesting if you look at the world did this and of Spain weather when the golden era of Spain was when the Jews were there when they victor the jews they grabbed their money they killed the metaphorical chicken they kill the chick the goose that laid the golden egg spain from 1500s is descended 1550 till today what do they do it's a place where you could get the supplied tomatoes the parts of southern europe what has come out of spain nothing zilch Oh from the great Spanish Armada right if you look where did the Jews migrated to Italy in Germany both became huge world powers what happened when Germany started killing and expelling the Jews the head scientist Hitler met the great mathematician who is leading the German the University of Berlin he says what's it like what's math like in your university and he said to him there is no more Manson Health University all the Jews have left right so what has happened where we have where the Jews have gone innovation has followed creativity cures for diseases and can now make prosperity and when they left it all left with them the human capital and where did it end up today it ended up in the United States and look at the flourishing of the United States the last 100 years since they've opened the doors to let the Jews in so say it Luke Oliver Olympic ood them if you look at you at his size or not very big was not a lot of us if you look at the contribution so what's the biggest mistake a person could make not recognizing the story that each one of us has especially if you're a co-religionist the power that we have look at what can history and speaks for itself right so what if the shame information might be Oprah you know how you're going to redeem call you throw yeah you think it's a nation of slaves you think you're a B advantage laughter be a pissed-off jerk right there if I'm Russian Mazda Bianca watch the power you have don't look at your size don't look at you numbers look look at how much you can influence the world so what's the message Dossett says beholder verdure every everybody supposed to sees themselves as they left miss Ryan well you know at the beginning of Google of thoughts with you know at the beginning of Alamut sorry I'm getting out of our problems what can our problems be they could be economical they could be sure the they could be molestation they could be relationship you know where it all starts with Hashemi asks every one of us every year before in these parshas mozzie Bianca did you spend time realizing your story and we've had on this program so many from from my Gary Apfel this week the people like like Santa Gerber who just stopped who the terrorists the PLO Hamas from getting money one person changed we've had so many people who do next week the people who have the genetic testing there's so many who do a hundred years ago how many achievers were there in this country look around now there's hundreds hundreds of Jordan Mazza Bianca you could we could fix whatever the problem is you know at the beginning it is Mazda Bianca what's the power you have in your hand so let's go to our wonderful line in our guess we're going to start off with your house our game all we have on the phone with us from New Rochelle I am her review shoe FF er he's a community the Robin remote he's also formerly at he's a dying it was formerly on the best in of rubbish Weiss now he's on a private bedroom and he is one of the he writes for the Institute of died on him in Yerushalayim he is one of the writers welcome rabbi Pfeffer thank you very much thank you that pleasure to be on Survivor I know you've written about Durvasa going mill so I'd like to ask you a few questions so starters the shelter says that um I mean the kumara says our board streak of light is one is a urate semi Syrian are you virus all somebody left prison right so the question is if somebody left prison does it have to be for DNA in the face does it have to be that his life is actually at risk he's a dis Akana or is somebody who's in prison for the name ominous it can he also make a bear how sorry mo and I understand that the mugging of Roma Pines in Eden in a fascist to be or Allah Commissioner brew seems to them on that way what is the consensus of our price scheme give us a little color alright so it is a bit of an involved question I'll try to give you the color and dimension so so yes like you said the the basic ruling of the Gemara the shogun eric is that somebody who is in prison and comes out of prison makes a burqa Sugoi now however the basic assumption of the kumara and Ranchi said and as a token assume is that as an element of Sakana there's an element of danger involved in being in prison and therefore because you are relieved of that danger you escape from that danger unharmed so you make a bit has a grim L so that that's what really that's the that's the impulse so that's the the understanding behind the negative ROM who says that somebody who is early Maximus my franchise which the Bureau I understand to mean that there's no actual danger in his imprisonment meaning the authorities wanting for money or either because of a monetary or friends or for his money there's different slightly different ways of understanding this but one way or the other if he's not an actual physical danger that then he wouldn't make a bit ago now but that isn't quite the end of the story because there are few other factors too I think that that need to be put into the equation and and I'll be happy to to mention them so first of all the mission brewer the pier Aloha mentioned that this could be contingent on a much broader discussion which is basically a discussion between Turkish Feridun and post K Ashkenaz it's already brought in a tour and initial Honora now the custom of you desired is to be more to be more broad so to have broader strokes in what enables or what it's appropriate to make a bill has a goml over even if there's only a slight danger even if it's only a less of a possibility forward angel of life so the customer side is still to make a break as a gay male that's why try to make it better go email over journeys that as an added an Adam doing from city to city the mission bird speaks about people who go on a boat on a river not on the actual seed somebody who is sick the Rambam pascal and someone who is snake even if it's not a dangerously ill disease it's only a sickness that your bed ridden for a few days still you'll make it a better forgiving and Mishra said but the same thing could apply over here okay rabbit rabbit ever since row because I that's you referring to the macabre and ratio test Sian I have a question for you so to despair them I mean if somebody gets the flu and they go to bed they really make a broken cycle moles that were I'm an Ashkenazi I haven't I'd have it mostly in Ashkenazi show live is that really so I mean you you know you have the flu you come back you make your process I go mobile shave I'm also that day Minich well actually yes it doesn't have I mean you wouldn't make a bit as a gay male on a mild illness you know something that you have to go to bed for a couple of days or you know but if somebody is significantly going rabbi rabbi Schaffer if you would make from driving from city to city which means if you drive from Lakewood to Lawrence you make a burka a psycho emo why wouldn't you make a parents like I am along the flu well that's that that's really a you know an un square for the min expired the question is really how far do you take this there category male that involves some element of danger because the flu you can't have complications from flu they're pretty rare and attorney if it's a serious flu meaning you're in bed for a week then perhaps you can start getting into issues of well because there's potential complications you're bedridden but the post restart also agree that for an illness which is you know you take a little with a little bit of antibiotics and and you get over it you wouldn't make a very thorough ml and I think the basic distinction will be that still a beer category male even according to the Mahathir which is the trace came quickly found still require something extraordinary you don't ever prepare for went as far as demeanor as you stroll dry from Irish alignment to the neighbor académica brother sorry Mel so Millington even the river valley asset actually does say that it would be appropriate to meet a girl has a great milk even over a Santa car journey from city to city which is the opinion of the mojado but the generally accepted Minich even among Sodom is is that for regular everyday journey you know people drive every day to work from your shamanic neighborhood it's an everyday occurrence it is what you know it's like going from you know Brooklyn to Manhattan you know from Haifa Churchill I am they make a bizarre-o more from fat whale at you know a significant journey generally which is not an everyday journey anyway not also have implications for our prison case because it's true that today prisons aren't directly dangerous however because you could come into contact with certain unseemly prisoners who might involve some element of danger and because the prison in and of itself can be you know a dangerous place and and if you fall out of line or or do things out of order so perhaps according to the police side it's easier it's easier to make her go email on prison sentences even today according to FIFA but let's leave the previous table beside you know it as you said you haven't many with Ashkenazim and and I think even from the Ashkenazim perspective which takes the most stringent line more narrow line in terms of where it's appropriate to make a gonna just kill a couple of considerations you see in the restraining there are a number of payment a number of rishonim and later postgame who do mention that even Maximus mama in even for imprisonment that doesn't seem to have a direct danger danger of death danger of capital punishment still you would make a better category man and there's two actual different I would say different lines of thought among the restrain him if you metallic them of why this is so so the rapini you know which is brought and some of the personal video says that even in somebody mamas mommy he says there's still some element of Sakana he's explaining the alternative the man says I mean and he said the the Betaseron comes not even in the cotton Apothic it's not but he says because in stock enough a cold cash it's not such a danger and he's speaking about harvest baba mama somebody who's in prison because of monetary issues and he says it's a lesser level of the corner so going to agree you know it seems that that you would to make a agreement for for not like the magnetron but not because of a different number cause of a completely different line of reasoning but that's because there's still some element of danger so then you would say well perhaps today in our prisons that there isn't any element of danger and you know nobody is going to be put to death if you're there for some monetary offense but the the Rema cash is something else Davina cash who's also brought in he protein share each other actually in ratio test of course so the Rema casters that even somebody with Matmos mama in even for a monetary offense you would still make a higer amount and it is interesting he said because while he's in prison he says new hire may show up and naturally that the person wasn't in control of his own self he was he was he wasn't imprisoned imprisoned meaning he lost all semblance of freedom right he didn't have any autonomy he my glamour Sheldon Asha the after yaps on the early math of it and he says now he came out of that situation and now he is in control of himself and and that itself is sufficient according to Rima cash to make to her going out that not the kiddush the this isn't this great Sakana but really i said that that itself is sufficient for the very patterning and and that presents you know a new kind of horizon a new option for the category male on somebody who comes out of prison it's interesting the Johanna Karev when he said this madness moment seeing as other Christian dr. Shulkin by the way so there's no difference mama mama-mama faster you make our game up he puts it all together respectfully the I think it's the Masters a shekel yes on the margin of Romney says you know didn't the Magan uh from Serie B Elena yeah so the master cycle actually resolved right it's all I'm not gonna Brown whether he knows there he says you know they used to catch Jews Maximus mum and it was an excuse to torture them to death and you see a similar concept but say in shinpei tessellation wish but you see that a moistur Maximus mom and is considered a my Samantha stuff uh she she says Russia into another he says they catches you they want his money and they figure out a way how to put him to death to get his money so I think certainly in we've seen enough in our history where money was an excuse to lead to life right so if so if you if you go down there that I continue a think that that would be true today and I don't um I don't think that would be true in the in a federal pride only thick that they're trying to put people in prison to take their money away it's not how the government works right that one that's the way Mac there's a second understand the that it's not the shot that they're doing it because of the monetary offense but rather they're doing it to get your money they will kill you and they will ultimately could lead to you it could lead and he was all right and that's how he results I'm gonna run with their opinion it's an interesting than sharpening but but you know the the Rema cash that you quote I have seen forgotten which should apply skin my saw ones he said that the couch ever written yeah that the cancer of emotional bond option which is a strange cancer where does it say like you quoted before the commercials are both written like this trashy says on that occasion you're 18 - icon like we're is so I have so what does that have to do with motion burner she and I have seen that the explanation of the Rhema caching is how many whether you think is a stretch or not is that when somebody is not my Shelburne Akshay so it's a it means that they could get depressed and depression itself could be very dangerous when somebody loses their freedom it leads to Mirage Hiram Irish piracy and already in the PI scheme are Broca's they could have it in a peacock that fish if somebody gets you know adequately depressed and if that's the case you know when somebody serves a lengthy sentence it would certainly be where there's a concept of much of an option we're marsh hire etc certainly has to play a role we would say would have it did of Pico a starfish what do you think about that way to read or Rhema gosh it would be interesting the thing with with your way of reading the Rhema cash is that that opens up some very broad anoxic ramifications because what you're saying is that the the concern of imprisonment is in fact depression of some sort and then depression itself is a concern for for death eventually meaning you're making a second step removed and and then you would say well if somebody imprisoned makes an agreement because of the concern for depression and Calva Homer somebody who is actually depressed would make a higer now right so you would have a very interesting on a sickness came in here for example for somebody who's depressed and if you think that somebody who is depressed and then become heals or his depression is healed and he's no longer depressed he would make a higuma so the same would be true of other kind of conditions how about some kind of an eating disorder but you know that would also be a ground for a hug or email so I think it an interesting line of thought I think it's its innovative I would point out the show makarov interestingly enough when he says that you make a agonal even on Magma's my mind which is what he ruled he said but only if the prisoner is protein changing in recognition as he came in chain when he legendary it seems very strange you know what a change got to do with it he's getting it from the plastic that's where he's getting it from well that mask I'm Seri honor you bar Syriana you bars all sort of party that's to ensure that that that's that's true meaning it's in the past but it's not in the in Halawa k-- you know the knowledge derived from the posit that somebody in pain transferring makes an agreement now clearly somebody who's in based on Cermak must Natasha Aires would make an agreement even without being in became Natalie Rosa from the Sahara but he says but if it's Mama's mom I'm then with the tariff if if he's also in other kin then he would make a hug Renault which is a very strange sheriff you know either madness moment is sufficient for the agreement or not so perhaps with the Rema gas you can have some time you can have some make sense of this you can have some understanding of this because you know the question is you're feeling really completely being repressed I have you lost all semblance you know you you don't have any control over your even your physical motion you've lost all control over yourself and I don't think that's the most simple understanding of the Rima cash you know putting in the depression is an you know it's like an attempt to kind of which is possible I'm going to resolve remit have what I'm trying to resolve is the washing or showing him in in her area is that it's always a Yates Amina sucanat I see says we lift the orders I'm a sucker enjoy sir so the motional Burnap che does not rise to the level of Sakana so where does he get this do element is finish well first of all but my itself the kimono itself doesn't see Sakana right the Kamala says that there are browser treatment heard it it's prudent Marashi and and and you know it's not just Rashi it's true that there is shame in general yeah the tamari intercept and and the other is showing meaning even there is a nice salad for instance when you speak about journey from city to city then the very careful to point out because as your Asami that there's quite a drop him of a s-class Chicana you know any kind of a journey has some element of danger so it's true that Sakana it is a basic very basic theme in in this video but I think the simple understanding of the Rhema cache is that losing your basic Liberty losing your you know your most fundamental freedom I think about the the show Hanukkah rap speaks about being in change I had a prisoner who didn't change he's lost everything he doesn't have you know the the the let me travel you know the the the prisoner who's lost everything so president like that is it it's true he's not necessarily in danger of imminent death but he lost his life for all intents and purposes meaning it's true that he's not physically dead but Lange took Morris's at any cost of kinase so this is not much much much worse than an ani he's lost he's lost everything he doesn't have a life it's an extension it's a stretch but but it's a stretch which you know we can we can strongly identify with although you're right this isn't the straight Sakana that the other is showing him seem seem to be a toe robin to be how would you bottom line what would you say somebody is officer today Maximus moment in the US jail what would you ask him well that's a good question let me see let me see the following you know in general we're quite careful with Sava Crocker's lajas well you know when whether the Suffolk we're out of a brothel Avatara and and therefore in many instances even in burkas ago now we find thirteen same Suffolk processing Xavier even you know Mako you can see it's even about flight that Suffolk process and so on but it this is a little bit like the slippery slope idea now that slopes have two sides to the and on the one side you have this topic Broca's your hacker but on the other side you have this idea of making Broca's you know making drugs brings in a chorus powerful into the significant into the significant events the significant things that we do in our lives whether it's it's you know everyday things like eating or whether it's special event like when we make sure he honor and and and I do find it a little bit you know little bit difficult you know even after you know to prevent somebody who's coming out of prison who's been there for four years later you know it's not a two-day you know jail sentence but it's a real prison sentence for for a few years and then he's coming out it's it's up an incredible a significant event it's difficult to to say that this is a bit too emotional to get in through strict allaha and and perhaps you can also make an Olivia native you know this because of the joy of being released you know you can make Abraha anyway because we have these postgame we have the Auto Show han we have the the show Hanukkah raveloe he speak about being in Chains I didn't invite so much and change today would depend on the hardship I guess of the prison sentence but and we have many other operation you have the Elio the great early orava meaning is a fellow rapper right we have many other agents allowed so we have a woman who permitted so I would be linked when I say have a fetter so let me follow this up with a question you would permit it social scenarios quite famously or maybe infamously postions that somebody else who's very close or feels a tremendous kinship or is also delighted with that person who who who basically makes the guy mow the stranger or rather this friend or this person who has that kinship could also make a guy mole and he makes a little different he says varaha Tosh Emily kaito hama shared Mohawk all toys who so in a case where you prisoner who has many people who are jubilant and excited and happy about his release can they make a guide mole as well and which is the opinion of the both the base Joseph and the Roma even though the rapid Kim who disagree but would you say in this case where Tom will make a game all right so first of all interesting question second a couple of things so first of all you know the the kind of drive that we have neither impetus to allow the person coming out of prison himself to make our going out right and to be lenient with actual command and you have another person who are lenient on this we wouldn't have that so much for everybody else I mean we don't have to we don't have a a holodeck well if you want or yeah we don't there's less of a need as it were to be make on an it for others but beyond that the the actual application for which traditionally under thing habits how do clearly strong how does clerics I'll apply this ruling of other people making her go email for somebody very close somebody that you have a close relationship or kinship which is very very limited you know we find it in very exceptional cases for example husband and wife here and there we find it the toys can mention the Malaysia and we with a culture is shared Malays culture and and and other very limited applications you know it's something which is generally absent from Sierra team and also generally absent from everyday custom from everyday you know you know even though the case in the Gemara in Aurora which I forgot his name of something back auditor from Baghdad because we're basically a friend came up so that his friend we thought was very ill God manner and he made the brother so now you see that the Messiah and we had it yeah yeah got his first name the Tanner if it's like bug a versa so you see that you see that it is used for I mean it is you know for friends not just for husband the wife this was a case I mean we find we do find a president for it I'm just pointing out that the general it's not how many gun so I would be ready but I have another point that I would also add on to that and that is that we have to be a little bit careful I would say around this kinship I did meaning perhaps we're all very happy that somebody comes out of prison and I'm assuming you referring to the rapacity and the reasons of national offense so you know everyone's very happy they're the kind of didn't not saw happiness fear and there's a lot to speak about that also I don't know if this is germane to the discussion but but but in any case you know that we have to distinguish between that joy and seeing somebody released from prison and and between this very intimate kinship and you know of husband wife or very very close relationship that that would enable the drama that you're referring to what is your opinion about the deed unethical we're going off the halacha for a minute but i am curious Wow do you want to be a bit more specific about the question yeah I'm sure we mentioned it you said that there is an attitude of these are not so kind it's worth discussing so I'm just following that with the question well again I just think you know it's there is something new and - and then you and say that on the one hand of course we're very very happy that somebody's come out of of prison and I think that absolutely legitimate to be joyful that somebody's come out of prison at the same time you know what one has to be wary of presenting the right message to young people that you know and I would have expected would have hope that you know that the message would be broadcast and we're very happy that somebody's come out of prison one has to be very careful to avoid the kind of action that could you into prison in the first place and you know with all the joys coming out it would be would have been far far far more joyful and far far better and had he not gone in in the first place so let me follow up since I have you let me follow up with a question that bothers me and then decide the way before you follow up is interesting question that there could be a note on her global perspective and this is mentioned by some of the post-game to Tilly either speak Spanish somewhere what happened when when somebody places himself in danger meaning he did he does something wrong and he's put into jail because of something wrong that he did do you make her go him out even though it's evidently your fault you know you're in prison not because they made something up and and and and could you live on false charges but they put you down on true charges so that that's also a discussion but you know I like actually I haven't seen it sisal user but respectfully I would say that uh it says our BOTS recently I days somebody went down to the ocean now what say somebody bidden said he went into a ship because they were he was a tourist he wanted to see the pantheon III think that's a good idea would you say he doesn't make a guy mole or somebody across the desert to go to his cousin's bum it so would you say he doesn't mention I'm oh well somebody who's maybe a Hilah because they were outside and they caught a cold and they weren't wearing a coat it has brought any place in the PI scheme that they don't bring a girl also I find it I find this concept or II III agree with you and that's also what Italy as I decide even if he brings from I think the master cracker from some other authority that says not like that but however though there would be interesting cases for the line cases for example somebody who goes bungee jumping okay or something really dangerous but he does it because he wants a thrill of the danger and then he actually survives would he make an agreement on that and then I would probably say no because if you're actually looking for the danger it's the danger that you want and then you're safe from that danger you know then I think it stands to reason that you wouldn't make an agreement on that I think somebody who attempted suicide that would be the question does he make a guy melona but let me follow this up with a more a much more relevant question I noticed I knew something in the news a week ago that 2017 was the safest year ever for air travel that there were a billion and a half or so some very very large number of you know passenger flights and there wasn't a single accident right and in general the accident level for for flying is in commercial aircraft that is very minimal it's one in sixteen million I believe some just oppose that with car accidents we're a 1.25 million that's one in a quarter million people died in the last year from car accidents now given that the Gemara like we said it says our boss utilizes Kisha lights in Venice Akana and you had it's the safest mode of travel that there is period like I heard one person say he says by far the most dangerous thing about air travel is the drive to the airport right we went over a million people died in car accidents and maybe a million different cars and we're zero fights hasn't been chingon will become a little bit of a comedy I mean you have a person he flies to eros you stroll for a semca and they're eating first-class food or second-class food with it so if there was any element of danger what's faces what a person take his whole family together on an airplane of course not it's absurd and the statistics say it's absurd so to me I was actually in sure where somebody made a bit of a game on the guy next to me said very loud Barack shame Kevin Malcolm so much I'd like to thank you like the rebuttal so stolen right so are we at a point where we're making you know we're talking about those you need because nephesh by by by going to jail the mr. Brewer says it has to be darkest somebody back mass and the fascist by a highly it has to be a maka skull with a person's life is in danger by yeah and now we have a guy he's flying terrorist role you know for abundance to stay at some fancy hotel or not and he's making a guy when making a lot fun is Adam Gamal are we well let me make a couple of points on that first of all I mean you're asking on on flight but you can ask the very same question about about the cruise right about a cruise on a boat and I would be I think you I think if this statistics a and I don't know the statistics that a cruise was so safe even though if what I understand a lot of people get food poisoning then we have to make a brother but if indeed you know you know was it was it was so safe etc then it would be the same question and and you know many many faith can equate many first we create flights it's also considered a high young Reformation says that's not the case on wishes even flat even an inland flight I just like from New York to Chicago it would also make a girl Mel Allen I'm aware of the true of ramesha however it is passable by the way he starts off he stopped of the children that general Misha starts off by saying that flight have an inherent Sakana that's right but he also says in the same shooter he says if it would be absolutely not dangerous he writes that in the true ver you would not make a brother so I say that given the statistics that you have most people's in car drew driving isn't dangerous you had a million and a quarter people died by death in cars and zero in planes yes it's it's it's over a billion and plus flight so yes it says that there is it has reached a level where it's not even a immediate of immediate of immediate bottle but the the tens of millions and therefore based on that and reach that level that even religious says it should not be a brother and it becomes a brothel about Allah all right so I would I would make the following point which we to the general point about halakhah works because this really isn't a question about because a good knows it's a question about hello ha in general you know you could say it's a question on philosophy of Aloha or a question of of how ha ha works and and you know and you can make the same case against making a cherry on on a new fruit you know in the US or anywhere in the basically you have you know seasonal through the whole year round the important from goodness knows where and and and still we're making sure you aren't on new fruits you know when they come round even though you know most people don't feel any great joy and at you know eating the the oranges when panic you know whatever it is and still we make we make those your honor prophecies and and the state the same idea will apply over here in that gazelle derived from from sodium and and and and and and it's not an enactment of herself but siddhaloka via right because I'll said that these are the things that you make the bra on so there's a certain you would say conservatives and a certain traditionalism about the way Hanukkah works said he doesn't say wow because today the color today things were different so we're gonna we're going to cancel these prophets think about for example euro down right would you say them across stainless steel is not the layer because Alice be enormous family respectfully let me respond to those points okay I would say like this that first of all if you were a rough a hundred years ago and somebody had strep throat and they came to should they make a birth a I'm oh if I were the rough or the matter I would say 100% I know somebody who didn't take in that be addicts for strep throat and they almost died from it and they needed to have major surgeries to I don't want to you know so but person sometimes listens but but my poor my point is they they almost died from that right today if somebody came to you and they said I took I had strep throat and I took in Tibet I took penicillin should I make a breast exam well you'd of course they know so what is a second and what is in a psyche honor clearly could change now in the case of the stainless steel to pops that you're talking about are you saying even though it's you know the price scheme do use it as a sniff a hectare or climbers almond etc you know they it is used by pi skin because there are no Bleus this man is a based on but over here the point is making the homra nothing comes that there's no there's nothing wrong at the rub we have a min exam any man hug him today I think everybody would tell you that there's no danger eating fish and and meat together every all the glacier restaurants have surf and turf they sort of and that are buying in in droves right so what is it it became a mini control that that's what we do but here on the other hand you're making you have ash I love making a broccoli shame among us right so you're taking a home run because of that homra being Nicolas into a Suffolk depends according to which price game of its a riser of whitey shame Lovato lacy Suchet Mashav right not like the market overall but like many other possible okay so here's a Homer where there's no damage it is a Cobra which is a real problem because of it but you have to remember that according to many place game and this is a question which don't have to get into that but the question of whether you make a broth on on the minute on the argument and this is clearly me regret making it on the minute you know and and games like how you say would be like how are you making a broccoli League is one possibility and but the other thing that I notice is differentiated it okay going on with the other thing the other thing that's of it is that by contrast with a strep throat which is something which changes you know over the years and from one century to the next we've had a revolution in in medical science and in everything and of course profits will change accordingly it needs four basic categories where I do day hi young and and and and assume and collision it happens all these basic categories I think that has all derived from sodium now you know classic but rabbits have a look at the plastic it says hey Moreau Marcia Shem your zombunny but yes I sim lock up I'm hey Moreau mas they saw the miracles of a sham that they were saved well nobody who's taking a cruise on with Carnival Cruises is going to say hey Moreau my fashion and Oh buddy is taking a la with their family to stay in hotel is going to say hey Moreau my flesh M either very the very same plastic I'm pointing out right but it's worth mentioning the relation has a very interesting the hair he has a very interesting - authors here in its Chiba rather than just going with Chicana which is one possibility he doesn't do that she actually goes in a slightly different direction and he says what's the fundamental idea of the hugger Mallicoat the idea is that without the boat you're dead because without a third year you're drowning in the water so the bird is saving you right every second you're kind of in danger in a kind of in an inherent way and in a in an existential way the Johanna Brock event if you went over a bridge because if the bridge wasn't there you with Ari no because the previous part of land the bridge is the biggest part of land to see you know not that good that gets into the commodity with the egg rows of command let's not go there but I think it's a creative interesting way of thinking he said cover home at about an airplane that you know were not for the airplane you're in mid-air you know you're ten thousand feet up in the air work not for the airplane you're instantly dead and so that the airplane as it were is is is keeping your life and that itself is ground it it just it's a creative and interpretive way he's not addressing your question of course is addressing a slightly different question but but but it's an interpreter it's a creative way of thinking of how you know we take the holidays that we have and and you know because you know you can give sociological reasons you can give a you know religious reasons of whichever reasons you want will probably carry on making Paris a good enough after going on on on cruises and so on because you know thirty place can have this responsibility to maintain halacha and and not to change it in drastic ways so will probably carry on doing it and and this is a nice idea of giving it a kind of new interpretation as it were which I don't think anybody said this before affirmation I don't know anybody but it gives me the kind of new meaning that could be applicable even today through not quite in the same sense as perhaps it was understood previously but still in a sense that gives us more of a more of a more of a time and more of an understanding of how the Crockett can be made in spite of your very I think on the point objections and in saying and by the way there are plenty of people who do make are going on on on flight and but not not quite through your reason they did to say that slice is different from from from birds but let's think about those right somebody who makes a cruise and makes a who crosses the Atlantic on a boat which i think is very very again definitely less risky than driving a car and still people are going to carry on making a government at for you know the next I didn't handle well rabbi suffer thank you very much for your time and most interesting different IRA thank you very much all the very best clothes over by Carl today Shankar we have out the fold with us so we have real back offer for Bugsy New York whose allotted read be the hada author Walker Roberta hopper thank you very much for about that hospitality we've had various letters from people who are concerned that the partying that the you know the singer's etc that making big icy fist the celebrations for Bachchan make there are people who are concerned about it could you express to our audience what your concern is well there are a couple of things that's why I think everybody should be happy that shows but so Mordecai Pascal was really it is a I said of whoever is responsible for it that has happened and the sheriff isotope for that and on the other hand additionally rob a bathhouse and additionally would you agree that the sentence was way excessive it was a miscarriage of justice at a pogrom in a way like a mini program at the first to yesterday no I would be very happy with a drum I think that it's miss applied in this case yes tell me what miscarriage of justice obviously many great lawyers and local figures took that position and obviously they know if you're talking about and therefore it should have certainly been a shorter sentence but I would never call this a program of any circumstance and I'm not sure that such language is not inflammatory to certain extent okay so what is your concern then they took return discipline is the primary thing issues guards but almost in other words we know that this is a sight mashita because initially school the concerning energy swell and most of us do not feel that it's applicable guarantees all for various different reasons but it certainly is typical good Florence where we are and that but if people see that we're not Jews and makes a great simple over the release of somebody that they do not understand the miscarriage of justice involved as far as they're concerned he is a convicted criminal station wagon system they tend to spend wisely this very strange and they tend to see this as celebrating criminals which is certainly not the impression we want to lead with them again I think that use our school must it's bucking the system it comes across as if we don't respect the system of law in America which is a very big fellowship okay you have any other concerns yes the other concern is the more general ones for the moment which is that there is a basic understanding I think which I've come across in many of my students that the is rather kind of the anti-semitism which exists in the world is inherent in the non-jewish personality and that it comes from Al Arabiya Dula a subsidiary uncle and I feel that this is very this is a misconception of a sustainer yako first of all we don't find I believe till via Barban l anybody who understood their discipline to anybody other than Yakko the case of themselves there was even a question of whether the word how lock-on is their toes that force it should be hard for you up and the application it's warm for non-jews and to say that all any LED woody and antipathy and for a unique is something which is very wrong and underlies a lot of I think the inappropriate attitude towards the secular authorities and in general other people and other cultures I want to add something if I may which is that 20 years ago I wanted to publish in a third periodical a misurkin man life I was surprised by the way anemic yeah a letter about racism in the Orthodox community which was and probably you're still a problem but so this led to the editorial board and they were buying leads back and forth is this good idea not a good idea and one of the members editorial board called me and you said you're not going to publish the letter he said why he says because he doesn't believe that we should publish the letters or imitate articles about issues which are washing so to speak our dirty laundry in public it's they're not going to be a to Ellis if they're not going to be an advantageous or correct the situation has anywhere started and he said that's why she doesn't allow this periodical to publish articles about Christian mission about monetary matters and dealing honestly with the authorities with the government's and so on and so forth he says even though he surely does not condone such um behavior and such activity whether life do you understand which coming from will be approached in Europe before the war as a result of the war and we better think it's going to change and therefore it's not worth writing about and bring it up in public so I think it's important for us to on the contrary understand that these under such that the nature and notion of anti-semitism especially in what we call in the zero successes and not to have this a that everybody's out to get because it actually breathed bad needles and also assign she's not skosh a certain sense of victory when we can folks as they overcome the other side rather than Hoffa let me share with you that is a something not accepted but it's it's it's if you're shall me it's empiric test of the Durham I don't remember what how long it is maybe a lot of Volvo's I am so the you shall me says that the sabaha Lucas Rab Akiva and I think it's beds over there shall be terrific Eva says that clogged of all the pyro of a hostile area her cabeza right and I thank you viruses so bananas has yes week call goggle Mesa what yeah nothing here but now that every colors on them keep it sellable liquor bar so Sodom so what is the play by a chasse on spot he says because the bed the deposit is keep it sellable Akiba so far them so he says Raqib is saying behalf to Loretta commotion you have to love Rioja right and I've been saying no but tell Emily cameras I saw that which goes out of bed oh yeah to is also he said to tell that la cabeza as I thought but every bed day at his terrible a Kip so Ashley government they saying that is a dinner of Ahava even to a a guy certainly respected he's but sellable like him and and and and this is a good mother that is that will oft-quoted it is about the people I know right it's it's that well it's very father you said or really quoted me report I want I want to your 100% and I want to add a couple things to what you said first of all nothing wrong with which I'm sure you're familiar which I only have it because of a minute that I don't know if your listeners are aware that I have for the entire you saw me i showing family certification online for free download anybody watch for new Sami people have been with me so Usami but Mattia about rubbish in manchester should tell me as I said I'm sure familiar with an Estonian brought him a donkey and in the duckies so that he was able to make a living for that and in the duckies backpack there was a precious stone and a tummy and said that you won't have to work anymore for the rest of your life and children checked out that good design was told if you know that it was there he said no he doesn't know but some whatever there are hair carrying for such things so my only choice over the shuttle right the turkey said you think I'm a barbarian barbarian II know but yeah with them all Kasim Azad come on like you said that we should say borrow location in the check and this really is supposed to be our goal and our and our mission in this world and if we're doing family which can cause a misunderstanding that not borosilicate you invent rap back then we're going against our entire purpose and mission why we're in this world why actually else quickly which is head you know I have a personal show with a brotherly chaplains I'm proud to report for Europe he has an article of my minor in them Minnesota's some sage Ron is able to put out on chat I alligator of an English ed makes the point which was said before about the letting call other than by journalism and he says that much of the helices which are we find in and the add to which is line it comes out versus Italy towards almost obeah buona sera it's not which does not refer to night drink and loose women doesn't for them because they have a lot of may not and since they're locking a dog therefore these things on finances maybe even family status appears OSHA which of course my anoint was one of their the mirror into the sheets of the memory in many boys nightmare and by the comic that's on the facts right yes yeah it's not in this table on these a long walk over these I don't haven't seen anybody whether you give you a long walk up but it's a said I expect it yeah yes I I don't know that that happen no hit I'm sorry hundred natural weather whatever hello car strictly Laura Thielen talking about literally short for Dean I think we talked about what in some sense because robots are them Bellomo which goes beyond the strict letter of the law and whether that happen you believe that teaching an attitude of disrespect towards the burden area leads to bad thing that's what you that's what you believe correct yes yes well thank you very much for about that half of the joy to Gus and pleasure thank you very much we have on the phone with us from New York rabbi yaakov Horowitz is the founder of you see the doc you know him he's also the founder of project yes welcome Robert Horowitz I think I definitely the pleasure Robby Horowitz as a mock honest par excellence how do you explain to children what is going on right now in our community in rebuttal immortal hybrid Ashkan well I think there are there are a number of I think there are a number of beautiful things about about this whole you know incident with with with from the time of his you know original arrest throughout that sentencing and then the campaign you know to to try to release some early I mean full disclosure my dear dear friend and puddin Gary absolute Los Angeles devoted years of his life literally pro bono money out of his pocket I rarely seen such devotion day and night to help secure his release and they're very proud of his efforts and I think it was I think it's really it's really beautiful I mean so the nice things on the fact that there's so many people care that so many people around the world really felt a sort of a personal connection to this I'm not an attorney and I did not follow the case closely enough to to really make an informed opinion but I think it's pretty it's pretty clear that the sentence was there's a time of assent you know the amount whatever 27 years or so and extremely excessive there were a lot of problem brought up in the case I mean the fact that 100 people elected officials from both parties signed the commutation request it really tells you that they really felt an injustice was done it doesn't just say you know release him it says release him because of and everybody sign their name to that so I think the fact that that the husband is his home with his wife and father is home to the child was one with their children is something to be happy for very happy for and I think it's beautiful the level of connection the fact that so many people were praying the governing for him and really emotionally involved in it you know I am I was a unsettled by the public celebrations I felt it was it was inappropriate to to in this age of you know 24 hour media and and once mark song gets everything online I just didn't think it was wise and I I do have a public voice on social media I did call people who are very high up in ask honest and Pawlak life representing our community before the government and they were very unsettled by it as well I'm talking top people I asked people who are involved in this case and who regularly interact with government officials regardless of how we feel about it you know who's he in the public eye he's a convicted felon and I just felt good because public celebrations were really they're not were not what our community needs okay you know him go to school and well I I was you know I said confirmation years ago so I was not you know I'm not directly interacting with children on that level now but when when he was sent to prison and people children did ask me about it and you know making me surveillance for him so you know I did say and in every conversation that I had with the children I did say that that he committed crimes and you know to put put at least some context in the conversation which i think is important he's he's not shown by a high coming out of the caves when he spent 12 years learning I you know III don't think that he should be glorified as if you know I think it's beautiful if thousands of people felt connected enough to celebrate him I really think it's beautiful I I think there needs to be some context here and I think in some of the written reports it really I don't think it was presented fully that way that here's a man who made mistakes and did things wrong and but you know if the punishment was over-the-top and we're delighted to have him home I must tell you that you know some nice-looking Gary she he you know most most people our aged of it and you know don't impress that easily and he was extraordinarily impressed with with his face this is mr. Grissom you know some question his face this his receipts in Grayson which he took everything he certainly has a lot of great qualities to him but I think it needs to be put in context you think this is not the author ever coming out of jail or or the Tanner who went to jail because he had to luminous and Arabic you know that Jean Kyra are exactly right like that's what I meant about it was somebody excited counting out of the cage you know that's what I meant I mean you know and and and especially in combat for example where they many years ago the majority know a great deal of the time of the see this existed they were either on the coming a stolen before that under a very anti-semitic regime and and they were celebrations you know people going into prison tsadikim you know the representative al Tania and in a great celebration upon his release and and I am concerned about that message the message that that celebrating someone's release even early release from prison you know can convey to children that the system is rigged against us as Orthodox Jews and therefore we're not going to get a fair shake and therefore the rules you know it weakens it weakens the room the safe that we as a country we should our children should be having in the rules law and I mean perfectly honest I've been very outspoken that President Trump has been weakening their respect for the rule of law every time he tweets about it I mean I'm I'm consistent in my thinking I think it's it's it's just beyond horrible that the leader of our country is is you know demonstrating a lack of faith and publicly talking about lack of faith as his own Justice Department so always anything that the purpose of demon you saying is the purpose of being a writer for showing the things around issues for your kind kind alignment right and in really important trust to have a functioning society right Chad McLaren for a second one strategy Elizabeth right and there's a lot of research there's a lot of research in the general population about you know when people have a code of practice or a set of rules themselves you know it's often and then you introduce another set of rules it's all in the end the mind of people you know which set of rules govern in an our situation because you know how beautiful you see the system on the side tends to have paramount respect for the rule of the title often what we call halwa huh in this great country where it's pretty clear that it's the best we've ever had it in two thousand years and people do have the ability to go into any profession they want and to feel safe and practice religion has English too we should be teaching our children a sense of civic pride and a sense of pride in our government and respect to the rule of law and when it's presented in a one-sided way like this like these bad people want to lock this man up forever and now we're celebrating again the statement should be made that in this case it was excessive you know this bleeds over to other areas like for example the whole issue of child safety and reporting to the authorities and and if you tend to believe that the system is rigged and you can't get a fair shake in an Orthodox to a camp which I don't believe to be true but if this message is conveyed in many different ways it undermines what's just a fundamentally important some concept of the rule of law Robert Thomas thank you very much he is on did always a pleasure David anytime Oklahoma we have the honor of having with us on the phone Gary absol who is an attorney based in Los Angeles he works for a very prestigious firm Hamilton and he has for the last four and a half years been working pro bono for slow maravatio Shalom rev Ashkan and gave that very poignant and moving speech that I think most of us saw about how we heard that Rai Bachchan was going to be freed welcome I'm Gary thank you very much David it's a great pleasure to be speaking to you so as a matter of background did you grow up in New York or LA which we had to go to yeshiva I mean did you just just to give us a little bit of a perspective I up on the west side of Manhattan my father Oliver Sean was born in Vienna and moved to America during World War two and my mother rebuttal oh hi I'm was born in Berlin also moved during World War two and we grew up on the west side and then and I'm so proud to say my father and my grandfather and my great-grandfather were close with capitulates from Vienna and Bar Hashem I'm thrilled that my children are now fifth generation that are close with capitulates which is a major major influence in my life or my father and the Commission is survivors and about 35 years ago I moved to California when my wife who who was from California said she'd like to move back to LA so just as a matter of the condition and Cerreta was my Sunday know I'm a bleeder and I'll tell you something else my father sondik as well and I think my father said he's come the only person he knows who the Commissioner trapper was a father and a son both know something unbelievable he was my son dick to me put I put my tongue on my bar mitzva you know that's amazing I David I hope that I'll get the chance to meet you in person because I love me in silvestra who became Jews in the hands of the Commissioner to rebel there you go Wow so so Gary we had to rub on him who we interviewed who both expressed the follow concern over Easter actually express different concerns but one of them expressed a concern he said in the in our communication to our but in a lot of the from a community there's a suspicion of the of the greater you know law system as a whole and a lot of it has to do with the fact that in Europe you know we were targets there was state-sponsored anti-semitism and in Poland there were a hundred and sixty different jobs that a Jew was not allowed to do include things like owning lamb etc this is as of law judicially not allowed to do so there's a lot of a lot of suspicion and you have to do things like smuggling I mean there was there was no other way to them to earn a livelihood they did there was a state-sponsored effort to drive them beyond into poverty but actually enjoyed hunger and there's a residual of that so when we have somebody who is arrested and yes there was a sentence that was all agree was you know while we most of the people I speak to say was was it was a breakdown of the justice ism or maybe Linda Reid may be a closeted anti-semite etc etc but the man is a convicted felon and now we're dancing and making the CBS and having and we're basically reinforcing to our children the guy em are out to get us the judicial system is an honest with the blow over the blow over being is we you know if if if they're out to get us then we don't have to treat them so well we can roll back the odometer as I now as a Scholl near where I live where if the shoulders in and out of jail at any time because the wrappin this choker speaks to game they're out to get us that the sonim that a so finally gank it and when you just listen to this elicits this listen but this means I can cheat you I could steal from you so this rob was saying it's reinforcing this in our community that okay yes there was an anti-semitic thing but all the jubilation and the to relapse is reinforcing this this is what one of the Robottom we had on and I'm curious if you could respond to that that's a very long question made a lot of different points in that question and if I'm permitted I'd like to try to give you an appropriate responsive wrong answer and try to address all the things that you that you mentioned in the question if that's okay short you up to my cursor lightens I must say I must say first of all that when you were mentioned about Poland and restrictions etc unfortunately unfortunately dark restrictions like that in the United States as well I live in Hancock Park in California and I will show you the deed to my house and the deed to my house says no Negroes no Mexicans and no Jews may live in this house except in the servants quarters so unfortunately it exists in the United States as well America is a land of laws but unfortunately at times the laws are only as good as the people that apply them what what what what gives us hope what gives us hope is this case because so many non-jewish senior former prominent members of the judicial system including every living former attorney general prior to the Obama administration multiple deputy attorneys general federal judges state judges US Attorney's all the outpouring and the outcry that they all had in this case she should solidify the fact that even though yes there are people a so from the Akko and are people out there that still are anti-semites today unfortunately that that's a fact but this country is run and administered by people who aren't that way certainly nothing nothing that that may have happened or happens against Jews ever justifies a Jew breaking the law and I'm not thinking I'm not a rug so Mike's a Dina DeMarco sadena just it's not it's just not the proper thing to do we're reading we have to set an example for the world that's why we're here and first and foremost it starts with obeying the laws and behaving like proper citizens with good needles in every way including obviously obeying the laws so so that's certainly not in my opinion I don't know who this Rev was that you mentioned but that's certainly not that's not appropriate or justified in terms of the celebrations let me start by saying this as show'm Mordecai rhuebottom's attorney who I think it's fair to say is intensively familiar with all the details of this case I share Alan Dershowitz his view that had shown gotten a fair trial he would have been acquitted so I think in part the celebrations of the fact that a man that was wrongfully convicted because he said he's a convicted felon well yes that's true that technically in the Northern District of Iowa based on the tactics the egregious misconduct tactics that were engaged in by these prosecutors and that's not my words that's the words that were in a letter signed by a hundred and seven former senior Justice Department officials to the venue s attorney in Northern District of Iowa which was reinforced in a meeting that I had the privilege of attending with three former deputies and a general who were outraged by the conduct of these prosecutors so yes he was a convicted felon but he was convicted in the situation where he did not receive a fair trial and his constitutional rights were trampled upon Jerry wouldn't wouldn't you agree Gary that I mean the the fact that the books were monkeyed with etc and I'm not saying I'm not gonna we were high hat and say you know everybody keeps a hundred percent honest books in crosses every day but you know there's nothing you know those are facts I mean he he made you may say well for doing that he should have gotten two years but you know tampering with books and creating fake invoices inflating them I read the letters that you're referring to from the White House that gov site I was fine by all those Attorney General and in their letter they write he tampered with financial statements right and I think it is somewhat humorously at any page beefing there's 11 days late I think those exact was somewhat the maybe paraphrasing and so that he got a sentence greater than you know they list a whole buncha skilling etc people who who ran off with you know tens of billions of dollars but even in their letter they say he did tamper with financial statements so when you say that durscher which says that in a fair trial it would have gotten off I mean that's a fact no it's not actually sorry I don't want to disagree with you I certainly never liked to discipline anyone for whom the Commission sir ever was is sondik but it's not a fact the letters that you read or not the letters I was referring to the letters that you read were crafted to to to to the President of the United States in order to maximize the ability to obtain commutation the argument that is rough as baking is he says you have somebody with a felon who inflated invoices many invoices right so millions of power and and yes he could have paid it back but he did inflate them and he and he should have gotten two years in our 27 years we we could agree on that in in order to be to be liable who the criminal laws you have to have criminal intent yes he did authorize you did authorize inflated receivables certifications and inflated even Tauri of certifications but he did so at the request of the bank because the bank said to him rather than come in for a waiver since and I'll explain to you in a simple way what the issue was they were allowed to borrow up to 55 percent of inventory and 60 percent of receivables so for every hundred dollars of receivables that they had they could borrow sixty dollars so and what they were doing constantly was going in and getting waivers and amending the documents there were times when the bank was said to him you know what show them I know you only have a hundred dollars of inventory I know you need seventy dollars now not sixty say that you have a hundred and ten don't worry about it will still be fully collateralized and we'll fix this later now now ask your question Gary could you imagine if every time there's a fraud committed the guy says the bank asked me to commit the fraud I mean I wouldn't what happened to our legal system of this argument slope I didn't do what I told me to you lied on your mortgage application the bank told me to lie on my mortgage application does oh yeah you know abou I'm sorta Fang you know what day was no at Davis yeah Natalie pays it you know what did you ever hear the subprime mortgage crisis I represented the I was I was hired by the Federal Reserve Board and the office of the controller of the currency to do a foreclosure look look back review to do a foreclosure look back review for two of the 14 major mortgage servicers in fact when I met Rosie and the whites the first time it was I was commuting to Philadelphia because one of these large mortgage servicers then was called a lie bank but originally was GMAC Mortgage was based outside of Philadelphia and I was commuting their weekly and guess what that's exactly what happened in thousands and thousands of cases the bankers were telling the customers inflate your income statement inflate the value of your house we'll be able to lend you more money now whether whether you like it or not that's just the fact and you can't say how well so X so it could mean every Jerry hey effect we've never fairy God we can never in effect in the United States prosecute anybody for fraud again because the argument is always the bank told me to do it the vendor told me to do it I'm just following orders the other guy told me to inflate my statements below in my thing I mean that's what they effect the argument you're saying hey no David that's really that's a silly sneaky sorry forgive me neck silly we can never again began to say it but there has to be evidence to that effect you know so was there evidence at the bank estimate inflates a statement you know what I this is something that I can't get into an attorney-client privilege but the 5-footer anchor that I is his attorney and representing to you that had he had a fair trial had all the facts chromatic trial he would have been acquitted okay that's number one number two and by the way number two Araya as we say in India Shiva Hirai ax he was indicted on over 9000 counts of state labor law violations in a state trial after he was convicted in the federal trial and there he got a fair trial that was a trial by jury with a fair judge and guess what happened 9000 counts he was acquitted of all 9000 counts now you may say wait a minute somebody gets indicted I'm 9,000 counts it's not possible they didn't do something wrong it's not possible why would prosecutors bring 9,000 counts and yet 9,000 counts and he was acquitted on all of them and to me if you want evidence why I say that had he had a fair trial in the federal case he would have been acquitted the state case serves as very powerful evidence of that so you're saying that when these wrote this or this rug says that it's sending a bad message to our children somebody who was convicted and in effect was saying the system was out to get us and it just supports that idea that is a crooked system it's against against the Jews or making big celebrations you know we defeated Holland you don't think that's sending a bad signal you know some point worth you you you are mischaracterizing what's happening here or this rubbish and you're just repeating it what we're celebrating here is that someone was improperly convicted of a crime was given a sentence that was way out of proportion to even the crime that he was convicted of and lo and behold later the loss that was the foundation for the 27 years the evidence was it was the prosecutors that caused it and the end and ultimately the system worked because the bad people the prosecutors who engaged in the misconduct got got caught with what they did and ultimately the system worked and the man was freed and of course we should be celebrating that of course we should but I don't think with a price exam hello but again our agendas and so I role there and judicial system to condemn the entire American Judah's judicial system because of some prosecutors in Iowa who engaged its this conduct that's a that's a that's a mischaracterization if one priori you add in your speech a careless yes you said this is a big nest that happened we got a part in I don't think anybody sees us that the judicial system worked the whole system works our system of checks and balances work because ultimately no no you know you know that's exactly I think it's just a lack of sophistication when people make that statement because our system of checks and balances that were that were established by our the founders of the Constitution no one branch has complete ultimate authority so you have the judiciary but there's a check on that and the check on that is that the president the United States can determine that your judiciary did not act properly and to grant clemency you have the judiciary that can say that the president I states when he's restricting immigration into the United States has gone beyond his authority you have the legislature that can impeach the President of the United States and can impeach judges so we have a system of checks and balances and guess what it worked because as you know wasn't it it wasn't an estimate to Gary it wasn't in this it was just the judicial system worked you know I gave it I can't wait to meet you in person and I hope notwithstanding this this lively dialogue you'll still want to meet with me but no absolutely I'm just pointing out that I know the David David David okay this is the first time today Nicki what he's not a David here because a great a Jewish world pressured him that's about the judicial system working David Davis is a dentist yeah David David yeah there are two concepts and what you just said seems to exist one concept doesn't exist for you ain't slime canal on this which means that when you have a situation you have to do your hair Stavros you have to work through the system you have to do things that are Derek whatever but at the same time high oven la hacker business yeah so let me let me tell you another point so another rub we had on made the following point you said you know these DN things and all the celebrations they made it on til it's a Google front page which is I actually saw it there and was picked up nationally and when the guy in see this you know they don't dig into the minutiae it's a bunch of bearded people jumping up and down and saying you know this guy we had some guy who was convicted he was also be for 27 years he got out after eight years and you know the president you know has a real orthodox son-in-law and he commuted and there were a number of article and you start reading the comments of these articles and many of them are error he raising like his of Washington Post at 527 comments actually come through them on some of the comments here's a man who the Agriculture Department in Iowa's Idaho so where is it I always said had the most egregious human rights violations he has ever seen one bathroom every hundred and fifty workers there were many many comments like this and the guy said what happened to the recognition of the Gemara supersenses remember that you're in Gullah you're not suppose the rates are the way style um you're not supposed to incite them when you know can you think of another commutation of some guy who was in jail you have many you know african-americans who've done the three strikes and you're out obama you've got one guy the last thing he stole was a cheeseburger and he got a life sentence because it was the third strike she said there's no partying then and they say was understood okay you got lucky it was a but so this person is have we lost our entire sensitivity to the fact that we are guests here this creates could create tremendous anti-semitism and if you don't believe it does read the comments on the newspapers I picked up the dancing I'm no more a sophisticated person and I know you're sophisticated enough to know that everything you read in the Washington Post has nothing to do with Sheldon abortion it's anything that they can do to bash Trump and that and that when you have 500 comments that most of those comments as a matter of fact are generated by one or two people it's not 500 people that are doing it because I've been following the Washington Post The Wall Street Journal the Des Moines Register which eight years ago was writing stories about to America as if he was the worst person in the world and there were beautiful articles about the celebration and how would what a wonderful day this is which followed an editorial by the editorial by the Des Moines Register's editorial board that these prosecutors need to be investigated for what they did and second of all I mean you know there were so many things that you said here it's so difficult to respond to all of them to remember even all the things that you said but but the celebration here and Larry Thompson Larry Thompson Louis Freeh Judge Charles Renfrew John Ashcroft Edwin Meese and Ramsey Clark and if any of your listeners don't know who these people are go look them up none of them are Jewish and every single one of them said to me this is the most egregious case of misconduct that they've seen in their entire career and that's what the celebration is and he could be white black yellow green blue or gold that's what the celebration is the celebration is that there was an egregious case of misconduct here and the President of the United States had the courage to stand up to that misconduct and to and to provide clemency it has nothing to do with the fact that he's Jewish now of course in the Jewish community we're celebrating because he's one of ours which is beautiful but this celebration would be the same no matter what color he is by all the people in the legal establishment who are in Jewish and and and and and you know something you're right that we have to behave ourselves but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that if a non Jew looks at me and says and says that I've done something wrong when I've done nothing wrong I have to apologize for let's move this forward so now you have people dancing in the same we have somebody who was a commutation letter that was signed by these hundred people says he committed multiple felonies and he was released early because it was the sentence was too strict and now there's big celebrating do you see that a guy could look at this somebody outside it could look and scratched ahead and say that's inappropriate behavior for somebody who committed multiple ponies to be having a victory lap and having celebrations do you think that that is it only beer evening Society to view and is that comparable let me just finished and is that comparable what you were talking about anti-semitism when somebody says I don't want Jews in my neighborhood would you say that the sticks that somebody who takes this position is the equivalent of saying I don't want use in my day but saying hey why are you doing big celebrating with somebody committed multiple felonies just out of jail or David David David your mischaracterizing in fact you did this too before I can't you you are you sure you're not a lawyer because the way you waive doing sneaky sound I'm a lawyer every hour you shave a boy every year okay all right because you late late you repeated one of the big lies before and I didn't and I didn't catch you on it because you kept going you didn't give me a chance to respond you said there were multiple amputations in the short period of time that is a lie there were no amputations the only time there was someone lost a few fingers was when he turned off the safety he himself apologized the man who did this that was one of the big lies that Peter did and in fact Agra processors received the bonus back from the insurance company because there was so few accidents that's the truth now you want to say the lie that they were multiple of violations and terrible comporting conditions and all those things the big lives of these horrible prosecutors who would want to just to paint the terrible picture this man perpetrated then you can repeat it then you can repeat it I no problem repeating it junk with dataframe it from one Burns's someone who has studied this tape carefully and lived into the last four and a half years those are lies and you're repeating lies that people are doing to try to wrongfully paint a picture as his trial lawyer guy Cooke said to me guy cook who's not Jewish never knew this man before said Gary Shawn lavochkin is a saint I've seen him I know him he's a saint and what these prosecutors did is they took a saint and they made a black-bearded monster out of him and David you're repeating what they did let me ask you a question let's say a guy committed no felonies and a jury wrongfully convicted him of 20 felonies right and then he goes to jail and then the sentence is commuted because it's too long and then he gets released out of jail and there's wild celebrations that it says this man was convicted of XLE and now there's a huge party so I'm I'm reading this and I'm saying well the justice system for the most part is usually correct says he was convicted okay it was too long Wow but now they're making huge parties sorry is your average person gonna say well maybe the conviction was wrong maybe he's like some guy in murderers row they found the DNA people don't think about that the takeaway is is that Jews are celebrating because they figured out a way to sort of no no David your mischaracterizing your mischaracterizing you're playing right into the hands of these prosecutors the celebration here is a simple celebration this was a case according to five former living Attorney General's of the most egregious prosecutorial misconduct that they ever saw in their entire career these are men to combine have 200 years of experience in the American judicial system and the celebration is that this egregious misconduct because of the compassion and the correctness of the president United States was ended and the man is released from prison and we're celebrating the fact that this egregious misconduct was finally corrected and ended that's the celebration and all these things that you're saying I don't know I don't know why you're saying it but your distractions they're playing up to PETA they're playing up to the prosecutors they're playing up to the enemies of President Trump that's that's what that's what these things are I'm sorry here the passion in my voice but it just grates on me when anybody says this this is terrible this is terrible this man this man according to a non-jewish lawyer is a saint and these prosecutors made them into a black-bearded monster a black-bearded monster and what you're doing is you're repeating the vicious it did David that's not right that's not right in any Jew that does that any Jew that does that I know you're just repeating what the others have said you know I don't know I don't know they weren't brought up right what can I tell you she's saying again there's somebody if an NGO looks at and he says it says he was convicted of bank fraud and sentenced to 27 years and he served boards eight years of the centage which many have called excessive that's what it says and it's not a presidential pardon it does not vacate his conviction it leaves in place a term of supervised release at substantial restitution obligation which were all part of mr. Abbas consensus let's change this his name is mr. Abbas cheon's his name is Leroy Jackson and now the Jews would see 10,000 African Americans or 100,000 celebrating make extinct what would the reaction be if Leroy Jackson if if we or Jackson had been the victim of the most egregious misconduct in the history of the United States and that's what people have said this is the most egregious misconduct this case will go down in the history books the way the the Dreyfus case went down in France that's what this case was no when people were celebrating when people were celebrating when Medgar Evers was walked into the into the into the University of Mississippi where Alabama I think was Alabama with George Wallace standing at the door not letting him in and when the federal government the good federal government back in the 60s was protecting the civil rights and Jewish boys not just black boys but Jewish boys were going down there and fighting for them and people were celebrating the Jews were saying thank God and that's exactly what they be saying here if this was a Jew what an incredible journey you've had four and a half years of pro bono to fix wrong or perceived wrong quite an amazing story we're going to go on to our next guest now who's going to be speaking again about beer ha ha game all we have on the phone with us from Chicago Rob you stroll anger who's the place akin the bass a row of Chicago he's also or a rabbinic coordinator for the Chicago rabbinical council welcome Rebbe stroll so imma listen trevi stroll does a woman bench gable miss ribbing that the mini today that women with women do not been screamo because coke over the past basta to Nina and since grandma has to be done in front of ten men so the men agree that women do not bend go mo low and used many crucial I him some of them on or rock says is that if the woman is around let's say around family members after she had a after having a child and it's just close family members and their ten men around so she would then scream oh what about a child I thought there's a ten year old bench cable so again it's a little shy on the place Kimmel aha we say that a child should not been sky moon because the notice of the broccolis are going with a high of him hi boys hi oven somebody who is highest and the cotton is not somebody with high it's not somebody tells accountable what they do uh therefore they don't make the broccoli mother high oven toy race there are other opinions there are other things yes there are other opinions but the many give that children may never find the cotton getting up by getting up by the beam and then think I'm a lot that's the many clinical elements that that katana do not been scramble there are belanger's if somebody had a something happened to them on Monday and it's three days before Monday Tuesday when it's four days before Thursday do they wait till Thursday or should they make it in Sherlock by leaning so again in certain appeal uh commissioner says that to do it within three days so something happened on Monday tactically to wait till Thursday would be ready after three days so it would seem that the ideally once you try to do it within three days but here again the mini guillem it seems to be - also - wait till - till the day of Korea cetera I'm in a no wait til Thursday I'm going to get you know the tiger to go ahead and they'll open scramble then terrible anger what if somebody was in a car accident and somebody was a doozy had it was sick give us some type of a parameters of what rises to the level of Grimaud and what doesn't okay so the bends going well somebody was almost in a Chicana that's not going to - venomoth that no schemes event did once she's not been scleral in such a situation if one was in a car accident where they got some as omelette brings if one got knocked hard he was in the car accident and he got knocked with and it was a kind of a knock which could potentially be fatal so in that kind of a situation one would been screaming but if one was in a near car accident where they slammed on the brakes and they did again and they didn't hit the into another car or even if their car might have gotten hit but they weren't knocked around at all in the car so that was almost in a second or they weren't in a Sakana and then one would not been scoring more in such a situation if somebody leaves jail where they're in jail for something that is Murli monetary matters and therefore there is no danger to their lives as opposed to where they're in jail for something that was they did something that could be a life punishment with some type of a life-threatening punishment with the West a law that does it have to be a capital event or could even be for money when the eventual if there's a capital a capital event in an event where it could have been a capital punishment so that's clear now that one would bench go mo the mugger brahmin says that one should not bend scleral if there is no Sakana involved it's not a an event which would had any risk of getting the death penalty of any sort so one should not dance concert 'only that that's monetary situations one according to that with not at vance-granville if a person did a crime or was put into a into a prison cell with other high criminals that do do you know the hardcore criminals their price can do to say that that's also a sec honour to be put in that kind of a cell together with and prison together those kind of criminal that itself could be a Sakana and would be reason to Ben's grandma but if is all crime something that monetarily those kinds of prisons are usually not Sakana one in those kind of situations one would not I would not Bend scramble cathodic bracha flick oh if some vomit does say that it's kadai when you making the the bracha in chakras when you say under the broccoli you say a thousand thousand memory so and using that been saying that one should have in mind anytime the Suffolk intended esophagus title comes up regarding dancing crime of the suffix okay yeah ending the brush any bird eating the broker anyway Baraka southern side mama he fell one should have a mind to cover that attention going Montague do it in your shot where ten people could hear that that you know it's even uh there's even better what about people who hear the simpler of the person who's who was saved so there's a lot of rings that another person can also make Abraha have you ever seen anybody do that what does that woman a biz man as a I was wondering about that I have never seen that done I've never seen it done so I can't I don't know he's haven't seen it done like a purchase area by guy walk right haha okay are there any other solution in the partials or any other areas that you think maybe that I was not aware of its like to share with us yeah there's an interesting rock formation fencing may she was known that he held that any time a person flies on an airplane even this man is there where airplanes really aren't this Arcana but he held a person fires an airplane one should Ben's going home sir once he came for Shabbos to Memphis everybody was lady gave her viciously she they gave him in the Leah and there everybody's waiting for Malaysia the Merida Schweitzer to go ahead and to been enjoyable and the and he he didn't things going on so they asked after after the Venini went over to him refrain Greenblatt Nebraska Cuba went over to him and I said how come he didn't pin scramble and explain that he only Ben's going on the end of the trip some meaning that when you go when he was traveling to Memphis that's one stop on the way then he's going to be returning back so in that situation he only made benches going on the return trip when once he gets back home however I heard from small first Selita that remains to hell does he go to Eretz you show that would be different if you go to every Jew so then one with Ben's going low even if he's returning back within a few days and the reason it couldn't hear you burn our big dust in the hope is that we're going to stay in everything so that it's gonna end up being a prolonged stay in every - so it's not just going to be a short trip idea that Erika salty you don't just it's not just a stop along the way he hurt you so that has a curious to it that ye come dirty cells not just they stop along on your journey that's uh I can't think of a better way to end our program they were that word thank you very much for sharing this story with okay yes how's your cousin hold on so in closing what do we have we have some interesting shadows that there cause I got a mole I personally do not make braja on flying by plane I consider it honestly a brothel about Allah given where we are today and on to the rubbish Qian discussion I leave it up to my audience to listen and to cogitate about it on their own and in closing and I got an interesting email after he said Javed last week you said that a person has to take their personal inventory look into the mirror and look for their Milas and he said like do you have any other Makara status you seem to think it's such an important thing and I would like to say a fabulous Makar let me share with you you know what is the most important mitzvah natira what is the biggest cloud goggle but I read mitzvahs today where says Arabic he was a clogger Albert IRA a hostile area hermosa and what is the Gemara in Machias ad camera says all the other mitzvahs are a sniffler tyra right it does xilk Meyers ooh a crucial tire of it does ilk Meyer I'm wearing Shabbos when somebody came to the hill so if this is the most important the Taira what does it say after larae aha love your neighbor which is all of a ceccolini mish but so much of the rest of the Sahara or half the Loray aha come by huh like you love yourself there is if you don't think you're worthy and you don't love yourself you're not going to be able to be became any mixes if you have no if you're me and I see Who am I and I garnished how much are you going to accomplish in life so the heck dammit all myths this is karma huh to the cloud gullible Pyrrha so look into your marathon service count your attributes try to figure out your story each of us has to figure Mars a Piazza what are the powers that we give in to us what is our story what is your story your unique story when we figure that out we have the beginning of Google this is David Larsen Steen for headlines you