Paradox Psychology - Controversial Therapy for Difficult Clients, Dr. Eliot P. Kaplan, PhD, #169

hi everybody Welcome to tonight's program with Coach ma burel thank you for joining us on this beautiful New Year's Eve instead of being in Time Square tonight you're here with us in our warm Zoom so we can get all warm together learn something some education and we're going to end off the year 2023 with some Paradox psychology with Dr Elliot Kaplan and hopefully by the end of the night he'll be drunk same thing as being in Time Squares we'll be good will equal so again we start off first thank all the people for joining us for the past four years and letting people know about it and for viewing it and for posting it all the WhatsApp on the WhatsApp statuses emailing it to friends and colleagues and people and we'll try to grow together somebody text me the Sha right it's not New Year it's R sh right no no we got it we got it somebody's clarifying to me thank you I didn't know that it was that it wasn't R thank you um and um thank you for posting and let people know and join and if anybody wants to join our WhatsApp statuses uh to get the the information please text me WhatsApp me at you could watch them as they come out usually it's Monday early morning after we done the program so please uh sign up again I want to thank all the advertising sponsors that promot us the Lakewood Scoop here in Lakewood Ellen arel from F toown Central and KY Cal from jcn the Jewish contact Network promoting it on all the Jewish digital platforms again anybody's here the first time every Sunday at 9:30 on this Zoom ID we have different topics we have different therapists different Rabon different Dynamic people that try to bring across their points and knowledge and to help us open our Minds to New Concepts new ideas and uh it seems interesting that we're ending the year with Dr Elliot just interesting because um it's be something different and hopefully we'll gain from it and let's see what he has to say so we're very excited metm the first sheer of 2024 is going to have with reab Daniel gladin who's a brilliant I think he has the most sh on Tor anytime he speaks on basically any topic any and every topic so he's amazing and um we're going to discuss a little bit he just came out with a new book about the whole T Balan and he's trying to bring up from the book um we're going to title the worldwide view of the Holy T Balan and aem's infinite love for the Jewish people in today's day and age so it should be a very deep and Powerful program please join us Daniel glas he's he's unbelievable and um it should definitely be something very interesting tonight we have the and the honor of having world famous therapist speaker Dr Kaplan PhD who uh saved many relationships de with some difficult clients over the years and definitely has a reputation in the therapeutic Circles of being a little bit out of the box so um I got I got a few messages that he's definitely out of the box and his methods are a little bit different and uh you know we've done Dr we've done already four years of different therapeutic topics and you know a lot of them were repetitive but uh we need sometimes a new flavor you know what I mean so uh hopefully you'll be that new flavor so first we're going to start off with our CEO coach coach's best friend he's with Coach because I'm not around he usually comes to me because he likes me better but I happen not to be around I'm traveling so he's going to uh you know he's going to the other team right now soach he found tonight's topic to be very hard to give a gamat but with hashem's help with God's help he with a beautiful numeric gamat for this year and let's see if it fits in take it away zom 169 Paradox psychology world's most controversial therapy for the most difficult clients in dealing with difficult clients you need a lot of wisdom and understanding 169 wisdom and understanding beautiful thank you hopefully that we'll find out if this okay Coach open it up why are we here tonight New Year's Eve at 9:40 pm on Eastern time to sit here with Dr Ellie what are we trying to gain what's the topic let's go bring it out for the beautiful yeah so welcome everyone to another let real with Coach maim and tonight with 16 what 68 or 69 1699 169 barash and like we heard it's going to be a little bit different and I want to thank all of you who sent the feedback about last week with Mor weiner it was very interesting the way he set it up the dynamic of the feedback of all of us and I gotot a lot of feedback of people who really enjoyed it so thank you for that and the recordings are always available for those who didn't hear it I just want to mention one other thing on that topic m is actually writing a book and it's coming out hopefully in the next few months when the book comes out he wants to he said he wants to come back and really just go to the next level always welcome back yeah so so yes like heard we're doing this almost four years and a lot of different concepts ideas that many of us sitting here almost every Sunday night picked up but there are there are those who sometimes feel that they have a certain situation in their life sometimes they might go to therapy or not but they feel that they're just stuck it's not happening they're trying different modalities different things they might sit with a therapist of many maybe many years but they they feel like it's not it's not getting them the place where they want to be the truth is we live in a in in a generation where there's a lot of information we have information on our fingertips and most people think they know you know bring up any discussion they know about it they can talk about it they can discuss it but when it comes to actual work to something they have to implement and their own life sometimes it doesn't go in it doesn't they're not connected to it they stay who they are they can talk about it they might be able to help somebody else but when it's personal about themselves information doesn't really work talking about relationships struggling with relationships the information might not work so it takes something else something more than just knowing the steps knowing the concepts going to therapy and discussing the concept it does take it does take work and a lot of introspection sitting there and trying to understand why do I feel the way I feel why don't I want different what do I want different the little little bit that I know about Paradox picology is that there are people some people come out you know very fast they're they're moved and it works and they they love it other people walk out of the room very confused and I think I think that's the idea that we'll be discussing tonight is that we want to understand everything you know you sit in front of the therapist you want to understand why he's doing what he's doing what are you talking about what why you telling me this how is it going to work what method are you you going to use we're trying to use our our way of thinking to understand what you're trying to say and then see if it's can make a difference but sometimes you have to go to a place where youve never been you have to feel yourself where you're not even sure what you're feeling and then you become a little bit confused and what I would say is if you're confused that means it's working so hopefully tonight we have Dr OT Kaplan with a lot of um to bring into the room a little bit of the wisdom the things that he uses in his therapy room and how he's helped many so uh we should be able to use this for ourselves wherever we are beautiful opening okay let's get into it so here we go um tonight's Shear we title it Paradox psychology the world's most controversial therapy for treating the difficult client that's what it's titled and I'm going to read Dr Elliot's bio Dr La cap PhD is the author of paradox psychology it's not what you think in Amazon books and the founder of the asylum for the Paradox psychologist psychology although popular during the 1970s the approach was often confused with its evil twin reverse psychology the method tends to use absur humor to quickly disarm habitual defenses it is effective with addictions BPD OCD and couple and family therapy interventions include prescribing the symptoms positive reframing and symptom exaggeration while noted for its success its underlying mechanism has always been considered a mystery until now so Dr Elliot please we're all here we want to hear how many years are you doing this first of all before we even go started I think about since I was five you know I think you born naturally Paradox that's when most therapists start by the way you know that at five years old you figure out how to deal with your parents and you know you do a little this to Mom and a little this to D and then you say at certain point say oh I can do this for a living and okay so please open it up you know as you know we have a lot of questions people going to ask you so the floor is yours yeah yeah yeah so uh so the first thing I want to mention is that you know in in coming up with the title initially I sent Usher um that it's the the most controversial therapy and I said you know it sounds it could sound even a little bit more interesting I I I sent him an email an email to say uh why don't we call it the world's most dangerous therapy um he didn't like that he sent that back he didn't he didn't want me to put that in he didn't like dangerous and then I sent him back well maybe we could say uh it's a therapy about nothing and he didn't like that e let's just keep it what it is let's just keep it what it is so um so I I think most people you know like I'm sure most people listening to this you know you've watched a lot of therapy um um um programs podcasts I mean let's be honest what am I going to say that you probably haven't heard okay so I'm sure that you know you're kind of w he's got to say something but I probably heard of it before and and everybody's going to plug it in to what they're comfortable with so if you're a CBT guy you're going to plug it into CBT and see how it works with that and if you're if you're a behavioral person you're G to do you you make it into a behavioral intervention uh your psychodynamic you're going to figure it out how how it might be Psy psychodynamic um but uh the bottom line is that um that the Paradox interventions is Asha mentioned were were very popular in the 60s and 70s with the master therapists with uh we're talking about Milton Erikson um Fritz pearls Virginia CER uh Salman nin and and of course they videoed these sessions that they were having because you would you would literally see see people change in front of your eyes and and watching those videos you think okay now we have it on video we're just going to you know like deconstruct it and figure out what's happening and you know and then we'll know exactly what's going on so we could teach it the problem was is that even though they had it on video they couldn't figure out what was happening it it just it didn't seem to make any sense what was happening um as we're going to discuss one of of the main issues is that uh that in in Psychology our training in school in in how we talk about psychology everything is focused on changing Behavior Behavior Behavior Behavior how we going to change Behavior Behavior behavior and ultimately the reality is yeah okay you want to change Behavior but what's a little different about Paradox is that as strange as it sounds I don't care about Behavior that's not my focus I talk about Behavior I will talk to the client about Behavior what's going on what's bothering them but really my interest is in helping the client with a new sense of attachment a new sense of the alliance the focus of paradx is purely purely on strengthening the therapeutic Alliance and it turns out that when the therapeutical alliance is strengthened that in and of itself will shift the behavior so and thinking about you know in terms of of of how I'm presenting what I'm presenting basically you want to people are different you know like a dog you can give a reward to your dog you can give a cookie uh and he's happy you know and he'll he'll he'll roll over he'll do whatever you want um you know it turns out that that certain animals I I think the research has found that Ravens actually very intelligent and they can figure out that if uhh if there are ants under um a space that they can't get into they'll get a stick and they'll put the stick onto the space and they'll get the ants out and then they can eat it um but people you know we try to we try to use those Concepts and plug them into people and sometimes they work and sometimes they don't so the issue with so so how is man different how is man different it turns out that we as people are paradoxical our very nature every single person is paradoxal what does that mean what that means is that we all have a finite body we all have this physical finite body and yet we have infinite potential so generally therapy focuses on the finite in other words how am I going to change uh that person's finite Behavior Uh even in terms of their thinking how am I going to get them to think differently um in Paradox my focus is on what I view as the infinite and the infinite refers to the ability to join with that person there's no limit in in terms of the depth of how I how well I can join with a person if you're working on Behavior the nature of the physical body can only change so much uh even a person's thinking can only conceptualize only so much uh with Paradox because I'm working on the infinite the change as strange as it sounds the change actually happens without the person thinking to the themselves oh I'm G to change right now I'm gonna do ab c and d and then I'm G to change no no no doesn't happen that way in Paradox um so uh it's um it's a very exciting approach if you if you ever if you watch videos you you can watch videos of um of Virginia saer Sal manin it turns out by the way that KL Rogers although he's never build as a paradoxical therapist call Rogers is very paradoxical if you ever watch call Rogers I I remember when I was in school and and we got introduced you know to the different therapists and they they showed us call Rogers and what does call Rogers do he sits in front of the client and the client says something he basically repeats it back right and the client will say something again he's said I so it sounds like you're feeling like this K Rogers never says oh think of it this way why don't you look at it this way maybe maybe if you consider it in another way another way of looking at it maybe maybe maybe you'll you'll see your situation differently he never goes there and uh it turns out that Carl Rogers is actually probably the original uh paradoxical therapist so um so in working with clients like I say I I I don't tell them to change and very often they change on their own now in trying to plug in what I do the the quickest thing I'll give you an example in a second the quickest thing you're going to say Ah that's reverse psychology I got it you're telling the client to do one thing but really really really really you as the therapist want him to do something else the problem with that the problem with reverse psychology is first of all Master therapists are never going to use reverse psychology because they're never going to manipulate a client and say that they're working with a client and manipulating anybody because M therapists don't do that that's not what what M therapists do so the and we'll come back to this later because I'm a lot of what I'm going to say is is kind of uh new so I'll have to explain it a little maybe in different words later but in terms of reverse Psych ology reverse psychology ultimately is focused on changing behavior and if you're going to tell the client oh you know I want you to do X Y and Z but really really I want you to do the opposite then that means that my agenda My Personal Agenda is that I'm trying to get the client to do something that is manipulative that maybe they wouldn't want to do that on their own in Paradox when I give a client an assignment I I'm not saying it because I'm trying to manipulate them I'm saying it because this is what you do this is the this is how you react this is uh you know how you relate to your mom uh how you relate to in your relationships and maybe the first time you did it it was um uh it was a new thing to do but when you do something over and over and over again a habitual Behavior eventually it becomes predictable and very often people get stuck in their predictable responses they get stuck in predictable emotions predictable behaviors predict predictable thoughts um and uh they try very very hard to to get out of of of these predictable behaviors and and the analogy I have um is that generally people assume and it's not even a qu we don't even question this we don't even question this assumption in therapy anymore we assume that therapy means that we're going to push the car up the hill okay we're going to push and we're going to push we're going to push and eventually the hope is we're going to get to the top of the hill and we're going to be feeling better and now our life is going to change because we got to the top of the hill the only problem with that is that as you can imagine it takes time and effort to get to the to push the car to the top of the hill and there are people in therapy that they do they do push they do push the car and they might push a week they might push two weeks they might push a month they might even push two months but inevitably as people are pushing and struggling to change their behavior there comes a point where you know what I've been struggling for two months I just want to relax five minutes what's the big deal five minutes I'm G to get myself a cocacola I'm G to sit down under the shade I'm going to relax five minutes and then I'm going to go back to pushing as you're under the tree and join your Coca-Cola what's the car doing the car is starting to roll back and not only is it starting to roll back it's starting to get momentum rolling back so even if you ran back to try to get it to stop very often the car has so much momentum that now it's really rolling down the hill it crashes into what ever on the bottom of the hill and to tell you the truth everybody feels bad the client feels bad because you know I was trying I was trying so hard and it didn't work and to be quite honest the therapist feels bad you know like oh you were trying so hard if you would just tried a little bit more another week another two weeks you know you would have gotten to the top of the mountain H and you would have been a different person so the bottom line is everybody is kind of upset because and now and now we basically start all over now we got to start pushing the car up the hill in my view in Paradox you know when people have high tension high tension high tension means that you're at the top of the mountain already okay so if you think of water right water runs down the mountain and it's not the water is not making an effort to run down the mountain and the car if I do my job right then I start pushing the car toward the side of the Hill and the car starts to roll and at that point okay client jump into the driver's seat and now you have the steering wheel and now you can even set put your foot on the brake obviously you don't want the car to to just rush down the hill you don't want the car to speed down the hill because that's not helpful either but is the client if you get a sense now you can control how fast you're going to go down that Hill how fast you're going to move move toward a more relaxed state so if you feel if you client feel that you're going too fast you put your foot on The Brak right but you didn't go backwards you're not you're not going to go backwards you're always going to go forwards and you can you can go around what if there's a if there's a an obstacle you can drive around the obstacle but what the what it alludes to and again this is kind of a a radical thing to say is that in doing par dox change is easy okay I'm going to say that again that change happens easily it's not work because I because I know that if the client is working to change and that means that they're pushing the car up the hill they're trying to do something that that they may or may not be able to do and to be quite honest I I tell this to people I tell this to people that I train I as a therapist I don't work either I'm not working right because I simply join the client I simply attach to the client I simply um uh join them in what they're doing uh my job is to Simply make them realize that they're bigger than they think you know people come in the client has a certain ego they have a certain image of this is who I think I am and this is how I have to react and my wife said this and my mother said this and I have to react back and forth uh but really because we're infinite we have infinite potential uh there are so many more things we can do than our our habitual behaviors so let me give you an example example I I I customarily use you have some maybe you have a a young young guy teenager comes in and you find out that uh he goes home yells at his mother and um okay you know you know by the way I I very often call Paradox Plan B and what that means is that first I'm going to try CBT first I'm GNA I'm going to try a behavioral intervention I'm going to try to discuss his history his background and when all those don't work then I'm going to do use Paradox the reality is if I if I use Paradox straight out then very often people get like shaken up by it I don't know what this guy's doing I'm out of here so okay so I'm going to talk to the client about you know did you think maybe differently when you when when you go home you know uh that you don't have to argue with your mom uh it could be a different relationship uh also realize you know behaviorally if you had a better relationship with your mom uh then maybe uh you know you you would be much happier and and and you'd feel much better about yourself uh yeah sure I know that you have trauma in the background so I I understand that but you know now that you know that you have that trauma that is really not part of who you are you really can can can let go of this arguing that you do with your mom okay and you know and again we work very hard and and if that works by the way then we've done done our job then we then then if the client changes then we're good but very often what happens is you you did the CBT you did the behavioral you did the psych psychodynamic um and for whatever reason they're still going home and they're arguing with their mom so what I do with the clients is I find I try to find out like the details like what like what's the trigger what what gets you going you're going to go home you know like what what does your mom do that really ticks you off and the client may say well you know I got home you know I just want like 10 minutes to myself but as soon as I walk in the door she says well when are you g to take out the garbage when are you gonna wash the dishes and uh you know I I tell her listen mom just let me walk in give me 10 minutes to to rest up to to settle down I I'll do that but give me no I want to know when you're going to wash the dishes when you're going to take out the garbage and wouldn't you know it they that's that's the beginning of a fight so what the client has just told me he's just told me the pattern he just told me how it works so what I say to the client is okay we tried all these other therapies obviously it's not working I'll tell you what one I'm going to do a paradox intervention with you and uh what we're going to do is we're going to plan right you and me together are going to plan that when you go home now you and your mom will fight okay that's what you're G to do you're GNA fight we're going to decide right here what you're GNA fight we fight and you know and I know that she's going to ask you to take the garbage out she's gonna ask you to wash the dishes and when she does that okay what are you supposed to do yeah but I don't want to argue with my I know that's not what you want but that's what you do anyway so why don't we just plan it you and me we're just going to plan that that's what you're going to do you're crazy what what kind of therapist are you you're not that's not helping me listen I know you you're a predictable guy I know you're gonna go home I have confidence in you that you can do this exercise ah this guy's crazy the client goes home he walks in the door and wouldn't you know it mom says when are you taking the garbage out when are you going to wash the dishes now the old client right that's the trigger now if I did my job right I'm standing next to the client and I go go ahead yell at your mom yell at your mom you always yell at your mom go ahead yeah but I don't want to yell at you always yell at come on just do it just do it you always yell at him and in that moment the client is like I I'm not yelling at her I'm I'm just going to go into my room and take my jacket off now what's interesting about this intervention is he didn't yell at mom he walked away I didn't tell him not to yell at Mom okay I didn't tell him don't yell at mom I told him to yell at mom so okay so as you listen to well of course you did reverse psychology you told him to yell at his mother because really really really really you didn't want him to yell at his mother but as I said before the problem with that is that that's a manipulation and the reality is is that on a certain level it doesn't matter to me personally whether he yells at his mom I'm just pointing out the pattern this is the pattern that you guys do this is what you've done for for for the three months ago two months ago last month last week this is what you guys are always doing you know this is nothing new so in predicting the pattern what I'm letting the client know is that I see you I'm with you and what I call what I what I just did is I changed the system and what that means is that usually when the client walks in the door the system is him and his mother the two of them and even though in therapy we talked about it that really he shouldn't yell at his mother and he knows better he really shouldn't the problem is is that when he walks in and it's the same system then uh you know they they fall into the old pattern because it's the same system but if I did my job right that means that when the client walks in the door I'm kind of standing next to him so rather than two people walking in the door now there's three people in the room three people is a lot different than two people and the and in in how a a a system reacts simply by the fact that it's a three instead of a two it immediately changes the whole dynamic so if you get a sense I'm not telling anybody to change but they happen to change this is what the system is difference ah I'm GNA do something different so that's uh basically Paradox in a nut okay for that opening yeah Theory that's all good and now we're going to get into it and really try to understand what you're saying in English sounds good don't don't ask me too many questions I oh Oh you mean yeah saying the speech is it that's it take it from there and run right right okay now we're gonna get into it we're going to grill you a little bit Yeah because concept it sounds crazy what you just said I I hope so that's right listen it's now by the way so so so to recogn hold on so to recognize that that that I in in Paradox I call that there's like basically three parts right so three pieces one is the call Rogers part which is um um um acceptance uh warmth empathy genuiness unconditional positive regard so that's kind of the the call Rogers piece to it so I'm giving the client UNC conditional positive regard the second piece is basically Fritz pearls I have training in gal therapy Fritz pearls was very much in the here and now and what's powerful about the here and now is that change can only happen really in the here and now right it can't happen tomorrow it can't happen yesterday so so it's a very much here and now kind of therapy the third part I've come to term as Bugs Bunny and if you ever watch Bugs Bunny cartoons Bugs Bunny is absurd you know he's he's like he's always doing something a little off track and um and and you try to keep track of what he's doing but you know like at the end he he's always like what's up doc and uh the the whole situation is suddenly different with with bugs but instead of everybody jumping on him he's on the outside going yeah how's it going how are you guys doing you know fighting in there so um so there's an absurdity to Paradox and um so when you say it's crazy I I I I want to thank you for the compliment you're welcome okay let's let's take a little break we're going to take a poll we're going to ask the the the crowd three questions everybody should vote it's Anonymous and then again like I said we have Dr OT Ka who's doing this for many many years and um he's dealt with some difficult issues and he seen tremendous change so let's try to figure out in your personal problems or or problems that you could see how it actually play out you know what I mean in um in your situation so let's start with the poll it's three question poll okay okay you could see it okay three questions here we go everybody answer in your experience what factor contributes the most to the effectiveness of the client therapy relationship what's the most important factor so that you and your therapist get along it's one of three options which one would you say was to be the best number one being on the same page as a therapist number two clearly defined therapeutic goals or number three open communication and Trust what do you think would be the most contributive fact that you and your therapist could really grow together second question how much effort is typically required for a client to address and overcome challenging mental health issues so how much effort does it actually take for the client to really if he's struggling with screaming at his mother or any other type of mental health issues to really overcome in your opinion minimal effort primarily relying on the therapist guidance option two moderate effort involving active participation and commitment from the client or option three intensive effort involving dedicated work both inside and outside the therapy sessions the third question in your opinion what factors do you believe contribute to why some individuals may not find success in standard therapy right we always hear all the time I went to therapy for 20 years I went to therapy for 10 years and we're holding nowhere why would you think that would be four options client and therapists are just not seeing eye to eye some people just believe that there's no real help with specific problems right just whatever my issue is is just not really helpful with a therapist I can't you know number three changes so hard that talking is really not going to help so you know if somebody has a bad meat or a bad tradeit or they have some type of real serious thing that they could talk from today till tomorrow with the therapist but the bottom line is just too hard to change number four incap incapability with the chosen therapeutic approach or methodology that means that the approach whether it's CBT DBT hypnosis psychedelics Paradox or whatever it is it's just incapable with what person needs to accomplish to really grow so those are the three questions answer to the best of your ability and um let's hear the answers and Dr we're going to see what people say and then we'll get your uh feedback on it you I mean sure okay let's give it a few seconds people are sending up some questions over here okay five more seconds okay I think most people voted let's share it with everybody okay so the first question in your experience what factor contributes the most effectiveness of the client therapist relationship and very interesting we have a very clear answer over here and Dr I want to hear your opinion only 6% believe being on the same page as a therapist 17% clearly defined therapeutic goals 77% of people here tonight believe open communication and Trust that's the ier that's the main factor between have a good client therapy relationship what's your opinion on that poll yeah yeah um it's pretty accurate um I would say F first of all the research the research shows that uh regardless of the um the modality uh the most important part part of the therapy is the alliance between the therapist and the client um in terms of of uh so so in other words so if if you're a thinking kind of person then CBT May might work for you and you can connect with the therapist on that level um and U whatever the therapist is doing if it resonates with you with the with the client uh on that level then it could definitely be helpful so so the Align iance is is the number one um part of therapy what I would add to that is that uh the hope and again the Assumption of a lot of therapy is that well you know for the alliance to exist you know or the client's got to give 50% and the therapist will give 50% and you have 100% there are certain clients who because of their own trauma they can't give 50% they just it's just they don't have trust they they can't reach out for some of them they can't even give 25 um so the good news of paradox is that really uh sometimes in my own view I'm kind of like going in after the client because I I have to find out where the client's at and I I will I I I'm not going to rely on the client to come out and bond with me I'm going to just go in and bond with client and uh it still makes up 100% but but I it terms that I might be doing 80% of uh of the bonding okay interesting second question very also very very clear answer from the people how much effort is typically required from the client to address and to overcome challenging mental health issues only 2% say minimal effort primarily relying on the therapist guidance 27% believe it's moderate including active participation commitment from the client 70% of people here believe intensive effort incl involving dedication and work both inside and outside the therapist sessions what's your opinion on that Dr Elliott propaganda propaganda propaganda that's what that's what we've been taught for uh since Freud you know like you gotta work you gotta push that car up the hill you got you got to put the effort in and it's time and it's you know and the problem is is that is that because everybody's trying so hard to change um at the end of the day very often change uh it becomes a lifetime work and and and because you think you're in therapy and and the change doesn't happen uh in the example I gave the uh where I told the client that uh that he's expected to get angry at his mother uh you can get a sense that the client didn't really it wasn't like he thought to himself oh you know I I was going to yell at her but now I'm not I'm going to hold myself back I'm going to have impulse control not at all you know it's like he just kind of recognized the pattern of of where he's at and that uh that his therapist that me as the therapist was with him it was it just changed his perspective of the situation and by changing the perspective in and of itself he was able to react differently so with everybody so far what you've said so far just to clarify is that since Paradox therapy it doesn't take so much 50/50 relationship because you could just be his buddy and and number two you're saying it takes less than intensive effort because when you're validating him and you're on his team and there's three people in the room the change will come easier than with the intent effort that's what you're saying so far correct well well ke you said I'm his buddy um very often I'm not his buddy meaning that I mean obviously if I'm the therapist I I'm hoping that I have something to add to the situation it's not that we're going to come in and talk about you know whether the Yankees are in first place or not uh it's it's there's an element where uh I you know part of what I'm doing is I'm assessing the P you know the client I call it waves at the beach in other words the client will come in and the first session he'll tell me that he's he gets angry at his mother okay fine that happens you know you get angry at your mother next comes in he gets angry at his brother next session he comes in he gets angry at his teacher the next session he comes in he says he's angry at the neighbor what I realize at a certain point is that it's you know if we if we try to take each of these situations separately then we miss the boat okay because it's not that each person he's angry at that it's the underlying issue that he's he's an angry person that this is his overall his overriding issue so my job is to is to help him come to that recognition without me necessarily saying well I think that you're an angry person right because if I if I say that to the client very often his response is you know I'm really not an angry person I'm really not you know if my mother would if my mother wouldn't say this to me if my brother didn't say that to me if my if my teacher you know was more respectful you know and my neighbor you wouldn't believe what my neighbor did okay so from the client's perspective they're seeing it in a certain way that that you know if everybody would treat me right I wouldn't be angry so in in terms of working with that client I have to be able to kind of convey uh without necessarily accusing him oh you're angry okay so so very often the homework is well you know it seems that that you get angry very often why don't we plan when and where and with who you're going to get angry again uh usually the client is surprised by that uh because I'm not an angry person why why are you planning that with me well because it seems that you know like inevitably every other day every third day you get angry at somebody why don't we plan right now you and me together are going to plan who you're going to get angry at next so again so from the client's perspective it's confusing so to say that I'm I'm simply a buddy you know a buddy doesn't you you know a buddy usually is not somebody who's going to confuse uh his friend so the client will work out a little confused and to tell you the truth even as I'm doing this seminar even as I'm doing this podcast what I need the listener to know is that at the end of this presentation if you're confused that's good because that means that that your mind had to expand that that it doesn't it's not making sense to what you're accustomed to hearing so if you're feeling a little confused in my view I think that that's that's a positive thing so far you're doing an amazing job let's go to the last question in your opinion what factors do you believe contribute to why some individuals may not find success in standard therapy 7% client and therapist are not saying eye to ey 15% some people just believe there's no real help with their specific problem 27% believe changes so hard that talking is not really going to help and 50% of people believe in in incap in incompatibility inen therapeutic approach or myth mythology so people believe that they're using the war type of therapy for their specific problem what's your opinion on that poll right um well you know it's it's interesting when when I first uh was coming out with Paradox and I and I came out with my book um in my mind I'm thinking like oh you know I I I'm I'm I'm competing with CBT I'm competing with behavioral I have to somehow show people that my technique My Method what I realized along the way is that um when you're joining somebody really really Paradox is about joining it's it's it's if if CBT works then that's then you're joining you know the the client will will change the client will get better if a behavioral intervention if a reward is going to work again the client will will will change and get better um so so part of part of my view and Paradox is to kind of also identify what the client can relate to okay uh I had an interesting case uh a while back a father comes in with his son and the kid like you know the father's trying to get the kid to talk the kid is not talking he's like you know like he can barely put two words together and I'm trying to you know get the kid you know like you talk about this you know like I'm trying to relate to him and the father tells me this kid has has tons of friends tons of friends I'm thinking come on the guy can't talk what are you talking about he's got tons of friends it doesn't it doesn't make sense so uh at one point they ask what do you like to do what what are you good at he says uh he plays the guitar okay hey maybe the next session bring in the guitar so the next session he comes in with the guitar I'm telling you he opened the case he Tred the guitar you know right before he started it and the the loving way that he Tred the guitar I knew right away that he could play that he that he had a that he had an ability to play yeah people were coming over friends were coming over because this guy could he he he really knew how to do do different songs and and and he had friends because because he had this neck for for being able to play the guitar so what I'm saying is is that you know for for a client like this for me to get through you know you know somebody asked me today if I play anything if I play any instruments I said well I play the radio that's what I play um but for a client like this you know if if I if if he has a therapist that's more that's more Musical that can relate to him on that level in my view I think that that therapist will probably get get through to this client better than I could because the client is going to be able to relate with that other musician uh and they're going to have a lot more in common than maybe that that I had with this point so uh so at least to answer your question so so it's a matter of really um um having a bond but but again in my view Paradox is is is an umbrella type therapy where where a lot of therapy comes under it okay let's get into it okay that's the first live questions you're on okay thank you sure I never did this before but I'm very excited to be here I I'm going to ask you like this in the last of your polls which I can't can't see anymore I wanted to review the wording what the PO I'll read it to you it said in your opinion what factors you believe contribute to why some individuals may not find success in standard therapy either client therapist are not saying eye to eye some people just believe there's no real help with specific problem changes so hard that talking about it is really not going to help or in capability with the chosen therapeutic approach orth okay so really what I'm on my answer is the third one I I believe that who changes so hard that you can talk from today until forever and it might not help and the fourth choice over there was or maybe the third choice was oh the the choice is the therapeutic Mo approach right so I'm not a therapist I don't know all the many many different therapeutic approaches but am I making sense like I I believe what's your question what's your question no matter how many types of approaches one has tried that may be nice and wonderful but we're it's not getting anywhere because change is so hard it just that's why I think that what he said might work the the Paradox whatever he'll say to me you know whatever my issues are he'll show it to me in a way that I never heard before like that's I want to hear some more of his example example let's use an example so we can try to play it out yeah is there a situation in your life that that you you might be struggling with and maybe you want to put it out there so let's say um communication okay dealing with people I can't say it's absolutely nobody that I could communicate with I think I'm a very nice person easy to be friendly and everything but there are some people that when I talk to or they talk to me we just aren't coming to an understanding of each other we just have a hard time seeing the same way how do we overcome that right right uh well the first thing I would say is that obviously you know the to to be on the same page as everybody is is a very tall order because you know everybody we're all individuals and we're all uh we're all trying to communicate we're all trying to to um uh to communicate with other people but I would say generally uh the feeling we want to feel comfortable in our communication on some level but usually it's the people in our family uh parents that we hope to communicate with best um uh spouse that we're trying to communicate with um our kids uh we're trying to communicate with if you're not communicate with the neighbor so much you're probably not so upset but but it's usually people within the family that gives us uh that issue exactly right so so so my question is is there any a specific P person in your family that you would hope that you would want to communicate better with I would say my spouse okay okay so so in your view what so so he he doesn't understand you you you tell him that you would like to uh something a certain way and and he doesn't respond what what's the issue that comes up okay I feel like I'm having a private session so this is very good no no no no it's we're trying to get understand explain it how how he would deal with it with his method okay um once we had a discussion like this in front of a therapist we said my husband likes to go bowling I don't he likes I would rather go um to the park to outdoors and some somehow we just couldn't come to an agreement here you know everybody is different right we said that but how can we get to that middle ground of anything it could be about it could be about raising children different ideas that you know should the kids do this or that we're not right and we're not able to be what do you want to call it communication so so I'm gonna re I'm going to reward what you just told me and you'll tell me if I'm correct um what I'm hearing is that every time you say left your husband says right and when every time you say right your husband says left a a lot of times there there that and we're both smart so it's hard right right right right right so so so that's the pattern that that's what you're doing so so you're struggling to get to convince him of your side correct and and and I imagine on some level he might be struggling to convince you of his side well let me let me ask that question again does he struggle to I mean you're obviously upset because you're not communicating with him correct I think that he gets more disappointed than I do that I don't understand him uhuh uhuh okay but but but at the same time you get disappointed that he doesn't understand you well I'm I'm really kind of more easygoing and you know if it didn't work it didn't work we'll figure it out a different time we'll do something else I'll just let it I'll let it you know I'll let it disappear which of course it doesn't disappear right right right right so you give in sounds like you you're generally giving into uh whatever if your husband wants to go bowling generally you're going to end up going bowling I think we lost her oh okay so she'll be back in two minutes all right she'll be back okay um so so basically the assignment is is that to to expect you see see usually the the struggle that people have is that it's always a big surprise when they say when when she says right and the husband says left it's a big surprise what what I can't believe it I you know it's like it seems like it's it's like you know where did this come from you know I said left he said right I said right he said left I I it's always new it's always but from what she's presenting this is the predictable pattern so on a certain level if we can if we can plan right now that she's going to say left and the husband's going to say right then we already know ahead of time what we're walking into and it sounds like like she's more willing to give in so I would I would say let's plan that you're going to give in you're going to say right he's going to say left you're going to say right he's going to say left uh by the third time you're going to give in and then uh he gets his way and everybody's happy n but that was her question she doesn't want that to happen she feels it's happening ready for 10 years right right right I understand but but the point being is that is that obviously she's struggling with that um but but I'm just giving feedback on the pattern right I'm sorry I Disappeared for a while I yeah you did our husband disconnected it GL no I I set my phone to die for the purpose of kids not using it could you imagine that okay so I guess I got back on okay okay so Dr Elliot how in her situation when forget about hers in general when there's miscommunication and they don't see eye to eye how would Paradox therapy well I mean we have to plan on how we play out how would you play out with her well I uh I mean she mentioned that she was in couples therapy with uh with her spouse um you know I there what I what I usually do in therapy it sounds crazy but what I do is I side with the husband and I side and I side with the wife I say just the husband all the men were about to sign up I had like no I I I'll side with the husband I'll side with the wife and and generally I and I'm still waiting for somebody to say well wait a minute if you're siding with him then you can't side with me and if you're siding with me then how can you be siding with him but it turns out that people just want to know that they're being heard that's basically what people want to know once they know that they're heard it's a little easier to to be more flexible once they can acknowledge that so if if they were here as a couple I would turn to the husband I'd say okay so you like to go bowling uh you know you like uh you know you like to do things like that and your wife likes to go to the park um but it sounds like husband you don't want to give in you you like bowling and there's a part of you that that that's what your thing is you love bowling you're going to go bowling that's what you like is that am I am I correct know fine am I correct right and I would expect that he would say uh yeah I I like bowling I say very good excellent and then I would turn to you and I would say okay so you're telling me that you like going to the park you like maybe taking a walk outside and spending a little time outside um but you really don't like going bold is that correct correct okay uh and ultimately because because of that situation I guess there's always going to be a little tension between you and your husband right so why don't we you and me together we're going to plan that the next time you're going to approach your husband about taking a walk he's going to uh basically say no and I mean this what you'll expect it that he's going to say no and that he's going to want to go bowling um and uh you know part of is I guess you have to expect that you're going to be upset uh and obviously because the pattern is that you give in so the husband never really has to do anything different really um so we we'll just plan that you'll give in how how's that okay you happy with that yeah no you're not no you're not happy with that um so I'm I'm you mean I should say no I'm not happy with that and then well I mean the reality is I think that that right I'm not happy with it yeah right honestly I would say that and and I wouldn't and I wouldn't expect that you wouldd be happy with but the point is that if you're if you're always going to give it to your husband then there's really no reason for him to change you know when when I work with with anybody I'm always looking for what's motivates this person what's what what what's going to get this person to do something a little different not because I'm going to convince them uh but simply because this is this is what they want to do so how does this work so so so so so what I'm saying to you is that if you're always going to give it to your husband uh then essentially he's there's no motivation on his end to do anything different if you say okay you go bowling and I'm going to take a walk and I'll see you later uh that's going to rock the boat a little bit okay so and so so sometimes what I do in Paradox is I I kind of poke all right meaning that that the question is if if you really want to take a walk I mean I'm telling you ahead of time that you will feel uncomfortable if you don't if you go for a walk and your husband doesn't agree but I would be interested to see how your husband reacts to that in other words the hope is is that your husband would say wow you know you you took a walk without me and I you know we always go bowling together and you know and I I thought that maybe you got you were getting to like bowling but if your husband sees that you're doing something different then that's going to put a little pressure on him uh now you know generally you might think you have the answer of what how he's going to react the reality is you don't know you don't know and and and I don't know right so but I'm just saying that if you do something different uh what's the there's a saying that if if you keep doing the the definition of crazy is if you keep doing the same thing over and over again and and expecting a different result right so so so so what I'm saying is is that on that level if if you think that you would really like to go for a walk it's not a matter of arguing with your husband or you he should come with you you'd like him to come you know you're letting him know I'd like to go for a walk a walk with you we went bowling I went bowling with you last week um you know maybe next week I'll go bowling with you but today you know you know I'd like to do something that I'd like to do and if you're saying that if you go and do something different then things might change well I'm saying that it it would it you know when I talk about the system the system is usually an equilibrium right now the equilibrium is that you give in as long as you're giving in there's no reason for him to do anything different because that's the equilibrium he's happy right on your end if you do something a little different that's going to put pressure on the other end of the equation right so in my mind I'm just questioning like what would happen if it makes a lot of sense to me and I think I might have heard something like this but not said straight out like that like someone would ask me oh so did you do what you wanted to do right and say yeah you know sometimes right right but but but let me just say let me just say you know again I I'm this is a short conversation in in like 10 minutes I try to size everything up my homework too I'm going to give you homework okay now the homework I'm G to give you you might not like but I have faith that you will do it okay ready all right right the homework is I want you to give in that's your homework you have to give in whatever any whatever your kids want you give in whatever your husband wants you give in whatever your mother wants you give in whatever your father wants you're gonna give in that's correct and I think you can do it I love homework okay do but again you're you're doing the Paradox with her but I'm going to understand this is where I'm going to have a hard time is what you're saying to her is she should be an abused martyred woman that just always gives in why is that going to change right you married to somebody who's going to take advantage of you and you're always going to give in like okay and that's a a good question so normally when she gives in she's alone she's by herself she's all by herself giving in right it's her her against the world right what I just did in this intervention is is that I took away that aloneness in other words as she's giving in all right what I'm what I'm expecting is that she's suddenly going to realize I mean it's not that she doesn't know that she gives in she's very aware that she gives in and she knows that she shouldn't right she know I know I shouldn't do it but you do it anyway because because you're you're alone in in that system by me joining by me giving the homework that this is what you must do now the next time that you give in it's like all of a sudden this really what I want to do so instead of it taking 10 minutes to figure out you might figure it out in uh five minutes you might figure it out in three minutes and to really decide is this really what I want to do right now I understand let question yeah will make sense let me amp up a question a bit if a husband is a narcissist and he's going to love this cuz you're he's going to choose you as a therapist he's going to pay you top dollar because you're doing exactly what he would like how is she ever going to get out of it well that's that's the question that's the million-dollar question because if the husband's a narcissist which I don't know at this point right because I I'm not talking to the husband I've never met him um The Hope is you know like in relationships the hope is you know uh I'm going to give in a little for you you're going to give in a little for me we're going to do something together I know that you want you're really invested in doing this okay we're going to do that you know you want to go to a trip to uh uh to Miami and I want to go for a trip to Chicago all right so now we'll go to Miami but the you know the assumption is that next time we're going to go to Chicago so there's a give and take right that's that's my my sense if the husband says wow this is great you know like you know I'm going to get everything that I always want well I mean first of all you know there's a there's a a part where uh the husbands realized along the way that that if he if he just does what he wants that that eventually his wife will give in she'll give in but uh the question is if you're not happy doing that you know if if you try something a little different uh the question is uh will will that change the situation so are you recapping that somebody has mental illness narcissist borderline that this method could be actually extremely dangerous um I I don't know that I would say it's dangerous I think that just why the world's most dangerous therapy well it's most dangerous therapy because I think people are more shocked by it in other words it's like I I I think it's dangerous because because people have their assumption that therapy is hard and that that I have to work hard to change you know it's like so so it kind of rocks the boat of of people's Assumption of what therapy has to be um I think what you're saying is good because I think what you're saying is in a regular relationship when there's two healthy people and you see that one person goes alone with it and you're giving them the and you're on their side and you're with them person feels like changing you know I feel guilty of this and but I feel like when you're dealing with non-healthy people this is this is would be detrimental right well I want to come in I want to come in for a second is not saying that she should give in he's not telling her you know just just continue giving in that's something she did till now right and by him giving her the homework to continue giving in she will next time think twice if she wants to give in or not correct so there you go you got a little bit of a change already completely lost all so slowly slowly that's what I yeah in other words in other words you know also com spouse and as a couple and the therapist tells her in front of him that you should give in then the husband will always say Dr Elliot no no no hold on so so then I would turn to the husband and I would give the husband homework and my my homework to the husband is husband you should never give in you should never give in husband you have to always get your way right now you have to realize the husband's going to smile he's going to like this homework wow this is really great all right but I'm coming with you I'm coming to you for that but you have to realize that if the husband realized at a certain point that now now when he when he even for him when he when he's gonna do his homework right that he's not going to give in you know a narcissist is very alone in the world narcissist is is like everything revolves around them it's it's it's the narcissist against the world so all of a sudden if I'm if I'm popping up next to him and I'm and I'm yeah don't give in don't give in don't even think of giving in it actually is upsetting to The Narcissist because it's like who are you to jump into my box you know get out you know who let you into my box here but the but the point being is that but again I don't know that he's a narcissist or maybe you know maybe she did something a little different if you know but let's go let's go through some more questions I'm gonna have to clarify more and more because I think a lot of have the same issue that I'm it's working yeah it's working I'm already confused yeah good good so so so but but the one thing I want to say is this is a good example we're talking about the behavior right I'm talking about the behavior to so okay you know just keep giving in right that's the behavior but underneath it underneath what I'm doing is I'm just saying to the wife you're not alone I'm with you we're planning this together and that is what's the changes that's what's different here okay it's a different let's go to the next question yeah okay we're going to need a lot more clarity but i'mna I'm going Grill you let's go next question you're on okay so H how can you apply the same Paradox psychology to the with someone dealing like someone suffering from very severe depression um to the point where they can't get out of bed they're just always sleeping not motivated looks like everything in a very negative light and also dealing with like Panic from very small minute things little things that won't affect somebody else it it just puts them in a very severe panic correct okay um so as you can tell if I say to the person who's depressed okay let's let's get more depressed uh that's not uh helpful okay and the reason it's not helpful is because basically the person's depressed already the homework is to get more depressed so really he's kind of even more by himself because nobody wants to be depressed and and I'm not really standing next to him because he's kind of getting just just kind of going into his the the pit the uh the the um that emptiness so that's not really where I want to I don't really want to go there so with depression with suicide it's like I'm not going to say to the suicidal person okay let's plan when you're going to commit suicide that's that's irresponsible okay all right um but what I do want to know is what motivates you client what what what you know in general when things were good what got you out of bed what do you like doing okay what are you h hes what um you know if it's an elderly person you know sometimes the elderly feel alone they feel isolated uh so I might start talking to them about their grandchildren about maybe something that they did in in their uh you know when they were working in other words if you get a sense I'm I'm joining that person in reminding them that there are things in life that they enjoy right so so what I would do with that kind of person is I say you know what the next time I come maybe you could show me pictures of your grandchildren you know I'd really like to see them and and if you get a sense now the person hopefully the depressed person is looking forward wow okay my therapist is coming back and he wants to see my grandkids and I'm going to be able to share it with them and I'm going to tell them the story about my three-year-old you know you know when uh when my three-year-old said was Miami and and when I said I was going to Miami my my f said no it's his Amy you know you know it's little story you know but but the person is going to come alive and that's again but that's the joining that's that's because I'm on that the person the same page as that person okay let's let's let's go a little deeper um I'm gonna unmute Gregory Gregory maybe will help us explain a little bit deeper because I'm lost Gregory unmute thank you so much um so so so I have an example for my from my own life I've had the privilege for the last three or four years of participating in a Thursday Zoom session with Dr Kaplan and um around that time and I myself have clients that I work with but at the time I was working with my own uh periodic uh Edge Lo losing my cool being short tempered at times and uh specifically with my wife who I adore and we've been together 25 years very happily but we we sandpaper each other and and that's how the jewel continues to get revealed so at the time I was getting impatient with myself for getting impatient with her and I and so there was some sandpaper going on between us but really within myself because because I know better here I know better but I was having some reactivity that was was was destructive and um so I I had attended a session a zoom session with Dr Kaplan and I smiled because there was a kind of epiphany connecting inside not my ego but somewhere deeper in my heart of that what how I relate to what he says about the INF infinite nature the the the the nature that roomie talks about Beyond ideas of right doing and wrong doing there's a field so I I I go into the field inside myself the spaciousness and I made a decision from that place that the next time I'm activated I'm gonna really let my wife have it I'm I'm I'm giving myself the assignment that I'm gonna really let my wife have it now uh what that what that looks like I don't know but let's see so that so the next day we had an appointment at the doctor with our uh at the time 13-year-old daughter we go and the do a new doctor came in and asked some very personal questions uh around about our daughter with our daughter sitting there who this younger daughter has Down syndrome that I was very uncomfortable with and felt was inappropriate to be discussing in front of her would be more appropriate to be uh stepp outside have the nurse sit with our daughter and have me and my wife talk to him but he did and I got thrown for a moment already triggered by his question and and the lack of of sensitivity and then my wife answered it without checking in with me and I got really triggered and I could feel that momentary percolation and I could feel the impulse to go are you kidding me what are you doing answering the guys that I could feel that and simultaneously like Victor Frankle says between stimulus and response that's our freedom to choose in that moment I was also present to the wisdom of my heart and and the assignment I gave myself and I kind of chuckled because I recognized this is the perfect opportunity to really let her have it and somewhere inside I simultaneously being being my ego self and my wisdom self being standing together recognize the absolute Ridiculousness of of me busting my wife's chops while we're sitting there both committed and devoted to our daughter's safety and well-being and our and our and our shared uh Devotion to our family's care so I just rather than being reactive even though that was my assignment I just breathed and and it's not like the whole thing vanished but there was a neutrality that washed over me because I recognized I had the agency I reclaimed my agency I wasn't a slave to being reactive to the first impulse that shot up no I I recognized not only can I do this and it not being wrong there's a part of me encouraging me to to to be right and I okay hang on a second this is absurd I'm I'm I'm gonna just I'm gonna just breathe We're Not Gonna accomplish anything here we'll wait until we get in the car and we'll have a so not only did I successfully address uh stay cool in the moment didn't say a word as I normally might as soon as we leave the room got in the car and and as we got in the car I GL aned over at her and as distinct from when I am sometimes triggered withdrawing withdrawing physical affection pulling physically and emotionally withdrawing rather than that in my neutrality I was able to reach my hand over and put put my hand on her leg and and and genuinely with a heart connection say can we talk about something that I was really uncomfortable with that just took place upstairs and she said yeah and I said when the doctor and then I just observed what what took place Gregory let's let let's hone in on this I want to really zoom in hyper Focus story is a beautiful story what gave you that ability to Center yourself in the moment when you're subconscious mind wanted you to go cuculu what was that thing because you felt that you should you felt that you could so again I'm I'm just talking out loud is it because I have a personality that I always don't listen to what I'm supposed to do so now that I know I'm supposed to scream I'm not going to scream or it's because you had that what what was the thing what was that core thing that that you think through the therapy through the paradoxic theory helped you in that core moment like really just zoom in on it so people could understand it for for me in this moment yes I spend I've spent a lot of time cultivating uh a relationship uh everybody has a different word for it um but I've spent a lot of time cultivating in ifs they call it the self um so so there's a there's a that that me that is not one of my parts but it is is most authentically me which which is not jumping into Judgment of good and bad and so I know that place well I I I have a relationship with that place and and there's something about it was from that place that I gave myself the assignment so that in a way uh similar to a therapist working with a client where the therapist is in essence as I've heard some people say loaning loaning the prefrontal cortex during that time to to the client there was for me a uh an alliance being made that may otherwise not not have been present between that peaceful wise uh expansive me and and the reactive me I I I made a commitment from I made an alliance by speaking from that place and giving the assignment and and so so even like I can imagine because when I'm reactive I can't speak for anyone else when I'm reactive nine out of ten times if somebody were grab my me by the collar and say hey just tell me the truth right now if you really honest and checked inside with you how old are you right now you know three but again you're going into now ifs and you're going into so so so so let me jump in here so let me jump in so so very often you know when when I'm working with a client I accept them but I also kind of challenge them and you know sometimes what I'll do if a client is is is impulsive about their anger what I might say okay the assignment is is that you will get angry okay uh and listen I know and you know that you have no Free Will and since you have no free will the anger is going to overtake you now when you tell somebody that they have no free will you're insulting their humanness okay if if if somebody would say A you have no free will you're going to do this and this very often there's a visceral response like who are you to tell me that I have no free will I'm a I'm because I fight Authority so for me it's perfect okay so the guy who follows whatever the therapist says I'm going to follow it exactly to the te well you have no free will that's good follow my okay but but you get a sense that when I tell a client that it's okay that you have no free will that very often is is kind of like the um uh the little poke for the client for the client to decide if they want to do something different okay pause pause for a second okay K jump in yeah no I'm just listen to Mr vanan and he just kind of really took the words out of my mouth because I was wondering earlier Dr Kap mentioned the word absurdity I was it was just running through my head already the word absurdity and does that mean to be like like you you say you see the absurdity of certain mental responses to things or or is it the situation but like you realize I could think it's really not as bad or as dramatic as it is why am I making a big thing about it why am I playing Head Trips with myself I I can see an example many years many years ago I I was struggling with agobia and I was seeing a therapist and he said you know you know I was I think I was traumatized once I fainted in public so I just assumed that was going to happen again I was always worried about the humiliation and then the therapist said well nothing happened has it nothing yeah okay that's nice cognitive in a cognitive way but at one point I just said if I'm going to freak out just freak freak out I mean I think I was in public place somewhere I had to do my errands and I felt certain anxiety so okay freak out already well then you know cricket's chirping nothing happened and I it's not that I was cured like Dr badan said I didn't walk out magically transformed to realize that I was doing a lot playing a lot of trips with myself and you know some sometimes you just either do something that maybe the opposite of what you if that's should be a paradox sometimes you have to do something either against your nature against what or what you really don't you'd rather do something else but you've got to do this and I wasn't even doing it to be a better person I was doing it to survive in the world I can't spend my life behind the closed doors I'm dealing with that now I just got mugged two weeks ago so I'm a little nervous going into the Lobby of my apartment building but I got to do what I got to do right sometimes is that maybe you know you know just have to survive and get it get on of life but but I'm just saying is that what you mean by absurdity you're just seeing the absurdity of playing Head Trips with yourself or or you know just get you know stuck in a certain way of thinking and realize sometimes yeah I guess you have to give in or sounds like you're when you're negoti with a spouse or something or just is I mean is that you mean the absurdity of something right not even worth trouble or that's I was well well let me let me just jump in you know that that it turns out that that that paradoxal interventions are very good for people who have panic attacks yeah because usually you know you know people are trying so hard not to have a panic attack and they they they're so guarded and and walking out and afraid they're going to have the panic attack yeah and then and then Paradox I said well let's plan that you will have a panic attack you know yeah exactly you're you're gonna get on the bus and uh your hands are going to start sweating and we're going to plan that you will and and the interesting thing is that now that you're planning it again you know the person generally has a panic attack when they're alone they're isolated they're they're all by themselves yeah by the very fact that we're planning it together that you will have the panic attack it's like now that getting on the bus but then they're not by themsel anymore it's like they have this they have this like shadow that joins them and it it just reduces that sense of tension yeah or even a strategy okay if I freak out at least there'll be other people there to comfort me but it's just that I don't know I mean I don't I mean thank God it's you know history now this whole thing but I'm just saying years ago you know where it was really you know crippling I know people that stay in their rooms you know their homes but yeah but say just developing a certain strategy or you that would plan B I guess you know maybe you're realizing that there are Avenues of if not I don't want to say Escape but none of us have complete control over our lives that learn but you have a certain measure of I guess s obviously Faith but there's saal I think that's I really just started using it that's realized why my you know why why am I being you know so silly you know so I I don't know if that's meant by absurdity you I you know it's just funny because when you said the word I was just thinking it over here my room my and maybe that yeah but explains that I appreciate what Mr vahan and you Dr vahan and whatever he said yeah let's let's do the next question and I want M Norman to answer the question first and then you'll comment on that okay okay Dr does that work for you all right yeah sure let should jumping okay M jumping the question goes like this and I want him to explain for us simpletons who don't understand still what you're trying to express he's going to explain it VI the question how your theory works and how it would play out on this question okay my husband slor wife spouse has been in therapy for a year now he comes home or she comes home with all the knowledge and ideas and methods but does not change and does not follow through what can be done to get my spouse to change via the Paradox therapy MOSI can you explain that okay the question explain the problem you've seen this a thousand times okay explain to this simpleton person how Paradox therapy would play out in that scenario and how it would possibly help them okay so so I just I just want to say you're crashing my show go ahead okay I'm crashing the show and the reason the reason is because I spent about 10 years learning Paradox therapy from Dr Elliot Kaplan and the one thing I will say definitively is that it is absolutely magical and it works I use paradoxical therapy in my practice all want go back want go back because people are texting the whole time I don't understand that he's saying so I'm going to give you I'm going to give you my explanation of it that's pretty much very clear very clear GNA be as clear as we can make it I I'd like to First just make an introduction that when people when people are doing behaviors that they don't want to do or that are negative behaviors Mal maladaptive dysfunctional behaviors they're also struggling with themselves we have to see that a person who struggles with anger and is getting angry constantly and yelling at people or a child who's bickering and bothering his sibling all the time besides for the fact that he's doing this Behavior he also is struggling with himself like what's wrong with me that I'm having a panic attack what's wrong with me that I'm constantly bothering my brother and I don't have a more effective way to get my message across what's BO what's what's wrong with me that I'm constantly fighting with my spouse so there's really two layers there's the negative behavior that they're doing and and then there's the the struggle that they're having with themselves and that's what really what drives people to therapy but what if we took that second element away what if we said to somebody oh you're having panic attacks and you hate yourself for having panic attacks and that's making you struggle hate yourself even more and isolate even more so we say let's we have a better idea forget about hating yourself for having the panic attack let's go outad in public and plan the panic attack we know exactly how it happens we know exactly when it happens we know exactly what symptoms come on so what I want you to do is I want you to go into public into the same place onto the bus when you go there and I want you to have that panic attack bring it on as best as you can so have your hands go into a cold sweat now what's happening is that you're actually you're actually validating yourself you're joining yourself rather than fighting yourself you're embracing yourself and you're saying let's have the panic attack and inevitably if we if we prescribe that properly the client goes out and they cannot they come back and they say okay so how did it go and they say it didn't work out as well as it was supposed to I tried to have the panic attack it didn't really come on so strongly this time and we say look you know you got to in order for us to to be able to help you you got to for be able to go on and really bring on that full-fledged panic attack now as each time they're finally accepting themselves for having the panic attack because they're trying to do it right so they're accepting themselves instead of fighting with themselves they're they're releasing that neurotic pressure and tension that they're constantly living with when I go and I tell a child um go okay you always fight with your brother I know you're saying you do it just because you want to have more power over him but the real truth is you can't control yourself from fighting fighting with him this is the only way you know how to behave so instead of um uh you know uh acknowledging that no I'm doing this in order to be in control of him so that he'll always do what I want let's acknowledge that you really can't control it it's the only way you know how to communicate and so since you're really good at that let's plan it for this week how often do you typically bother your brother over the course of a week how many times a day and then we'll plan for the child to do it so now by handing it to to him by encouraging him to do it he's able to take a step back he gets into a little bit of confusion and he's like wait a minute I have to do this do I have to do this and now suddenly when he's confronted with his some challenge that he's having with his brother he's has my voice or actually has Elliot kaplan's voice in his head saying okay you got to go bother him because you know no other way of doing it and that opens up his free choice to say wait a minute maybe there is another way if we were to be telling him stop uh let's come up with ways and strategies that you can we're only causing him to be more and more frustrated because his knee-jerk reaction is to go into what he always does but here we're actually putting him into a position where his knee-jerk reaction is going to be wait a minute Kaplan said Norman said we got to go and bother the brother more but why should I do that why do I have to do I have to do that is that the only way and we put them into this conflict where suddenly because they're accepting of themselves they feel more connected to themselves they're able to back off and think of something new they come back inevitably the next week and say well I didn't do it 10 times this week but I did it five times and we say yeah but you usually do it 10 times you're really failing at this intervention we got to we got to make this intervention better you know we don't want you to lose your identity of a brother botherer okay a brother bickerer so let's plan this better and get to it and then the next week they come back and they say that's there such a pain in the neck to have to brother him all the time I I only did it two times this week I don't want to hear this is so stupid I don't want to do it anymore and before you know it what's happening is Dr Kaplan explains us all the time that because he's making new choices he's actually increasing his self- esteem and while he increases his self-esteem he need not bother his brother that much anymore Bushi is that more clear for you I think we're getting it but now we're going to have to break it down into various scenarios so a lot of people are asking will it work with this will it work with that you know I mean you're explanation is very clear Dr Elliot you know sometimes could give it over a little bit clearer to the simpletons don't you know so no no yeah again what I would say to you is is you have to go through the confusion of this because because again you know like you know when you've been in Psychology for so long yeah you know what to expect okay yeah you have to work on it hard to for me to say oh this is no there's no effort there's relatively little effort I mean the the example I give it's kind of like you go into a room and uh you flick the light on right so the light the light goes on right but but really it's like minimal effort yes you're G to flick the the switch but it's but it's not that you have to push the switch and get a wrench out to make the switch so it's it's it's really it's it's kind there's a natural flow that you you let go of the tension that that that's keeping you in a certain position but what but again but the I'm just saying that the logical mind has to go through a certain confusion to kind of get to the other side of of what we're talking about here okay let's go to another Live question let's see hold on want to un mute wait one second one second un mute hello hi I'm okay what happens if your husband has a rage uh constant rage and um trying to work different kind of things like um bringing something up back and saying how about looking at from this perspective and then I give him ab and then he goes you're making me angry you're making me angry I'm not making him doing anything he's ra raging himself here and at the same time um I've you know I was trying to be vulnerable with another scenario and I thought oh we're gonna be vulnerable we be able to open up and now I said I don't want to be vulnerable you know so I'm kind of getting detached from feeling from him so I don't know how to handle this and that's been running for a while he's has a temper right what's how to hand so so one of the things I I you know like you know very often I do I I present about Paradox and very often people uh they'll listen and they go ah I'm going to try this on my husband I'm going to try this on my kids and when I tell what I tell them generally is no no no back up back up because generally you know you know your kid is like throwing his socks on the floor and you tell him not to throw his socks on the floor and then finally you come to and say oh I just went to this Kaplan training uh you know what uh you know throw your socks on the floor yeah yeah go ahead throw your socks on the floor because because you're in the same system with that child with that with your family um what ends up happening is the kid knows the kid knows you don't want the sock socks on the floor right but now oh mommy said I can throw the socks on the floor now I'm going to throw the socks on the floor so what I'm saying is because the system is the same in other words nothing's changed within the system then then the kid is just going to throw with socks on the floor so to to try to husband so right so to try to convince your husband for you to be the therapist for your husband is not going to work I know okay all right which which which which what I'm trying to say is that the advantage I have is that I'm on the outside and because I'm on the outside when I give homework when I give an assignment it's like now my presence changes the system I see because and because the system changes now it can change and I'll be quite honest I think I'm pretty good at what I do but you know what when I go home and I'm with my wife and and with with my kids I've learned that I you know there are things that I want to say and there are things that I want to jump in and I you know I know in my therapy this would really work but because I realize I'm in the system if if I jump in and say well what about this oh yeah you should just keep doing it my wife say yeah yeah you're doing therapy on me yeah that's your therapy right because she knows what I do she knows she knows my crazy therapy so so it doesn't work with her that's what I'm saying because because nothing GNA work otherwise it's not going to work you need you need to have I think the advantages is that you have to be is part of outside the system but again if I was to give you homework if I was to give you homework uh from what you've presented so far you you know I'm taking a leap of faith here uh but I would say the homework for you is to be your husband's therapist and to just see how he reacts oh he's not gonna like it okay no no no no no but but blame it on me blame it on me tell me that that you went to this training and this crazy guy Kaplan said that that you're supposed to be his therapist and that you're that he told you to to just keep telling him that he should be better yeah he's he's going to be he's going to hate it but at least but at least on your end you can kind of if you can kind of step back and watch his reaction okay then you kind of learn like his triggers and how that there's a dance that goes between you because because he knows that you're going to try to change him and you and he knows he's not going to change but now you but now you kind of observe dance a little better if you now one second one second one second Moi not specifically her but how would that play out I'm just try to explain what would happen when she did that so so um it's hard for me to wrap my head around this particular intervention but okay I give you a similar similar you know if I were to have a couple in the room if Jane was there with her husband and what what inevitably what plays out in therapy sessions usually not within the fir not necessarily within the first uh few few minutes of the session everyone's on their best behavior but inevitably the husband's going to get triggered and he's going to start to yell at his wife in some form get aggressive with her or yell at her in some form and what I would do as a therapist is I would notice that and I would I would say okay it looks like the you know the way that you guys interact is when your wife says something that upsets you or triggers you um you know this is you you cut her off or right get aggressive in such and such way is that about right is that is that the typical 100% you got it 100% so so at that point at that point I would say okay well well now that we get how this relationship Works uh what I'm going to have you do is anytime your wife says something that that you disagree with or that upsets you or triggers you I want you to make sure you know that you call her out on it and yell at her really loud because when you do then you'll make sure to set the stage you know you'll you'll set the record straight so I want you to to yell at her each time now the absurdity here is that I'm I am pre prescribing to the husband to yell at his wife that doesn't sound normal right it's no I I had that happened to me I had a situation exactly like that that he that happened and what I did do is I said e I'll talk to you when you're calmer and I went back to my car and just waited for him or wait that would be a good that would be that would be an appropriate intervention for a wife for a wife who's who's uh being aggressed by her husband but in the therapy process I would instruct him to now yell at you each time you trigger him and then the next time the next time it happens he might forget and do it again and then I'll say I'll compliment him for it I'll say you know you were spot on and this was exactly what you were supposed to do and I appreciate that you're following the instruction of the therapist and and uh giving it to your wife over the head and setting the record straight at that point I've given him the permission to do so which enables him now to take a step back and say this is absurd I shouldn't be yelling at my wife in the therapy room especially in front of a stranger and the next time she she triggers him he's going to be in some in somewhat of a you know he's going to have some chaos going on inside of him the therapist is telling me to yell at her but that's that's ridiculous and so he's going to begin to start exercising self-control and toning down his aggression towards his wife but he does yell at other people too sometimes it depends that that would be how it would play how it would play it out in the but can what do I do to him because I'm not gonna say it's therapy or whatever I said that's so yell at me I just go like to yell at me H the record stra can I just say that for myself well I I I think I think that you have to be aware that that if your husband has a has a short fuse then uh you know you know you know usually when I'm assuming that when he gets angry uh it's always a big surprise H I can't believe he got where where did that come from why is he getting angry again right the point the point is is that that's him that he's got that it's a surprise when he doesn't get angry right 100% so what I would say to you is that is that if you can figure out certain exit strategies knowing that you you know by the way sometimes people are on a time schedule you know they're kind of like the they're kind of like the the train coming into the station the 19 he's a perfect he likes that exactly he can't stand it he hates to be late no no no no but no but what I'm saying is is that some people are so scheduled that even with their anger it's like you know they get angry on M Monday Wednesdays and Friday that I can't schedule but he wants to be on time well but what I'm saying but what I'm saying is is that if you realize that he gets angry Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays then then that knowledge for yourself means that okay I have to leave the house before he has an explosion because today is his day right so if you're aware of it then you can what I'm saying is that you can react differently that you can that you can respond differently so right I've been trying to at least not answer or I said said but I feel I don't feel good ins so like I don't want to be vulnerable anymore you know like we had a moment of two days or three days and I said I don't want to do I know I I I know this is GNA come up occasionally now and I'm accepting it just for today and that's doing that so I should um just like I I today's reaction I was like okay what can I say and then I just went off and did my own thing and that's it so I just I just did something like that I like I like how does he how does he react when you say okay I guess I'll just do my own thing what what's his reaction no I just keep quiet I just always you know one time uh I said to lower the the volume and then he did and I said I'm here to hear you know let's go and I'll leave you alone and then I keep quiet that's what I try to do I try to keep quiet while he was do raising the radio so I I got him to do that and then I just did my own thing but I was using some other tools like to do uh stroking and uh um this uh I forgot you know disarming stuff so I was trying to do that yeah okay all right at least I got some idea I like I like M's uh idea that to say yay thank you come come come again give me more give me more you know maybe but but if he if he finds that that's provoking him he's gonna give you more I know I know but I have to I had to be able to handle it well all right I'm just saying that's why you need an outside person because if I provoke him then he has then he can only get angry at me I I you know in my therapy I I would not want to encourage him to get angry at you I mean I I what I I I don't say get angry at your wife what I say is it seems to me that uh that your propensity is to get angry at your wife and uh you know I you know I'm not saying that you should get angry at your wife but it seems like every Monday Wednesday Friday uh we can expect that this is what's going to happen so I'm not telling that I want you to get angry I'm trying to raise his awareness in himself that he is not that he thinks his anger is spontaneous reality is it's not spontaneous at all it's very scheduled okay hopefully they work it out here's another question that somebody sent in and let's see how Paradox psychology will help them out I have a very negative outlook on Hashem and my relationship is disconnected with him because of all the heart that he has brought upon me is it okay if I don't want to Davin I don't want to talk to him I guess they're very angry what would be the right approach to heal these feelings of hurt towards Hashem um I think that you know part of Daring is to be honest with Hashem and to say you know Hashem I I'm uh I'm disappointed in you uh that uh I really uh was hoping that you would be more present that that I would see the blessings may you know ultimately by the way everything has as we know ultimately everything Hashem does is a blessing is a is is ultimately good and from our from our physical eyes we often don't see that it's it's it's it's good um so we pray to Hashem you know that that we should only see the good of what he's doing for us but uh but at the same time you know if you feel that you're suffering if you feel that that you're that you're uh you're hurting um you know uh I would say to to D to Hashem and say listen you know I you know I really wish you would you would show me what's what's positive about what what's going on here but they they have no connection they don't want you know it's negative you're you're saying you know fight it out discuss it well well you know it um so the choice is so so you're saying well you don't want to Dove okay so uh if that's if you think that's going to solve the problem then don't doin you know but but what I'm saying is I think that ultimately you know uh you know we know that we can't that that human beings are certainly more infallible than Hashem um I mean I I guess I would recommend maybe talk talk to uh your local Rob say he's struggling and let him know you know like you know maybe he has a suggestion because I assume he knows you better than what we're going to talk about in five minutes here ellot can I kick in for a second on the on the person who's struggling with Hashem sure sure you said you said a really interesting point that they should lay it all out and um tell Hashem that they're disappointed right which which I'm sure raised some eyebrows from some people like how can you tell Hashem you're disappointed in him but I'd like I'd like to try to explain from paradoxical position how that helps the person who's struggling with yides K he struggling with Hashem so again he's having two issues here number one he's disappointed Hashem didn't give him what he wishes he could have or Hashem you know dealt him a difficult set of cards and that's that's one problem that he's having the second problem that he's having is that he knows inside of himself that he can't be upset at Hashem because everything Hashem does is for the good so he's really struggling with two paradoxical um pieces here number one I'm upset at Hashem number two I'm not allowed to be upset okay if you instruct somebody to go tell Hashem that he feels upset at him right you've removed the second conflict you're saying no no tell Hashem you're upset at him Hashem Hashem understands you Hashem knows that you're human and that you're going to have feelings he's the one who gave them to you so go ahead and tell Hashem that you're upset at him by doing that you you immediately remove the conflict that he's struggling with he says okay now I can go speak to Hashem and sort of get it off my chest and tell him I'm upset by doing that he's less upset he's less conflicted he's less upset at Hashem because he's able to share that with Hashem just like we would understand when somebody goes you know to pay a Shiva visit there's nothing we could really say to make the person happy or to calm them down right but if we say to them of course this is sad and it's disappointing you lost the love one and that's the most difficult thing to experience by doing so they immediately develop a sense of calm and peace they're still sad about what happened but they're not conflicted about being sad yeah yeah and and by allowing yourself to say that you're disappointed me as the therapist are I'm validating that that's uh you're having a human feeling this is uh I can understand why you would be disappointed you know and you you have a very difficult uh you know lifestyle or or you have very difficult things that you're going through in other words letting the person know that that they're not alone to a certain degree the fact that that that we're with them yes and that's the same that's the same in when we prescribe symptoms when we tell somebody okay go bicker your brother we're essentially telling them the experience that you're having that's compelling you to bicker your sibling is a normal acceptable personal experience to the degree that we're saying go do it go do it you have to do it go do it and that calms them down brings a piece a sense of calm and peace y Dr Captain let me ask you um overall asking telling the person to actually do it sometimes you know telling them to do the wrong thing does it ever backfire they actually say great that's what I'm going to do and they run with it and they actually do what you suggest right right um well the reality is is that ultimately you know I I try to make very clear to the person that that they have a habitual pattern that this is their habitual pattern the way that I frame it is you know in other words I'm trying to challenge the client here so I may say listen you know you know this is why you again we've tried CBT we've tried psychodynamic we've tried behavioral those those uh Straight Arrow type of interventions have not worked so now I'm going to plan B Plan B is okay so let's plan that you're going to do it right now by the way you know if you know if if I'm if I'm working with a client who um who uh is who is doing something illegal right you know if I say oh yeah you know like uh you know robbing a bank let's say right so you know there are different ways that I kind of approach it but but one way is to say you know listen you know like obviously uh you know you've tried robbing banks before you keep thinking about robbing me I'll tell you what my advice my personal advice go rob a bank go rob a bank now when you get arrested because you will when you get arrested again and the cops come to me because you've told them Dr kapam told you to rob the bank I'm telling you here and now I don't know anything about it I have no idea what you're talking about now what I'm doing here is I'm I'm I'm connecting with the client in other words I'm I'm letting him know the reality of the situation is this is what you want to do you know I I'm going along for the ride but you know what if you're going to tell the police that Dr Kap told you to do it you know what I don't know what you're talking about I really have no idea let's let's say for example he spends four hours watching till four o'clock in the morning whatever and then the next day he doesn't um he can't get up in the morning so you recommend you know continue watching and he actually does well uh so so sometimes what I ask myself is what's the benefit why why why why you know so people do crazy behavior right and I asked myself why would somebody do that crazy behavior so let's say you're talking about somebody he stays up all night can't get up in the morning can't go to work and you know as I talk to him about the situation it turns out that his mother gets angry you we supposed to go to work and and his boss is calling him up and his boss is calling his his mother up and he didn't show up again so for the client what I what I might say is well it seems to me that you need to get yelled at right you need to get yelled at and and to tell you the truth I think on as crazy as it sounds I think you're doing your mother a favor because my concern is that if you started to getting getting to work on time then your mother would have nothing to complain about with you right and she would get very bored your mom would get very bored now I I think my my interpretation of this whole thing is I think you really do love your mother and I think that part of loving your mother is to keep her busy so in my mind let's see how can we keep your mom busy uh let's see uh you know maybe you'll come home late at night n that's not good enough uh maybe you'll uh you won't do well in school no that's not good enough I got it I got it why don't you just stay up all night and not get to work the next day that'll get her upset and you'll be doing her a favor now again from the client's perspective this guy is crazy this guy is nuts you know what is he talking about right but in the meantime so so again so they do their old thing they get up late they miss work and now Mom is yelling okay and as mom is yelling at them the hope is is that I'm standing next to him and I'm going yeah good job you got Mom to Y excellent right so so you're keeping mom busy so I'm trying to challenge him that if you get up on time if you go to sleep a little earlier then maybe maybe maybe you'll get to work and now mom Mom can't be bor if Mom is Bored mom is going to have to figure out on her own what to do right so I mean it's it's it's it's sometimes sometimes the interventions are a little complicated but but uh there they're they're usually interested gotcha Dr I want to ask you one question want just Tex actually a good question is there any tools people are listening tonight can use from this mythology besides going to therapy is there any way you could do this or anything part of this that you could take from tonight's program that somebody could help them not saying take it all the way and obviously you know whatever but is there something they could take from tonight that you could leave we're going to go to closing but I'm just before the closing that like are we can we take away from tonight like if you have a difficulty with a certain thing give yourself the permission to do that even though you KN you know that you need to work on it is that is that a fear statement what could somebody take away tonight without going to you for the actual therapy right right um you know part of the therapy is is to get the person to kind of take a step back I I think motion Norman talked a little bit about this where where if you can observe yourself in other words sometimes um what I'll do even for myself is like I I'll challenge myself to do something and then I and then I want to watch the reaction of that other person um you know uh it's interesting so so you know I don't know as a buddying therapist I remember uh uh as a kid I I I would get into arguments with my father and we go go back and forth and back and forth and just when I was just about to make my point I was just about to get him just about to make my point my father would go okay you got all the answers you got all the answers I don't want to talk about it anymore and I I I would walk away and I'm like but but I just I I I want to make my point I I was just about to right but this happened once this happened twice it happened three times and finally I I recognized the pattern I recognize the pattern so I said 'you know what I have to I have to do something that will disrupt the pattern that will do something to shift the pattern so the next time we got into this back and forth argument you know like we're going back and forth and back and forth and just when I figured he was just about to say that I had all the answers I turned the tables and I said to my father I said you know what you have all the answers you know you're always going to do it the way you want you have all the ANS says I'm not going to be I'm not arguing anymore and the and my father had this surprised look on his face like what you know so so I guess what I'm saying is is that if people can can take a step back and watch the pattern that happens again and again and again between you and your spouse or you you and your kids and to realize that as long as you're involved in the same pattern as much as you want your kids to change as much as you want your husband to change uh the reality is is that they're happy usually with with you the person as long as you're as long as you're picking up the slack as long as you're going to to give in uh why should he change there's no reason for him to change now that doesn't mean to to go oh now I'm gonna do what I want it means that okay you know like you know he wants to go bowling I want to go for a walk you know what you tell your husband listen you know I'm going to go out for a 10-minute walk I'll be right back uh you know but that's that's what I'm going to do right now so it's not that you're it's not that you're doing out of out of Revenge or out of um uh spitefulness you're doing it because it's something different you're gonna have a different response and then you come back and you and you want to see is your husband talking to you nicer is he uh like how is he reacting you know just to to see how that other person reacts when you do something different okay amazing okay Dr Elliot let's go to the closing now um first gra Dr ellot C for coming out tonight giving him deep physic and really understanding on this Twisted Paradox therapy Concepts um I'm definitely confused but I think I got some clarity have to be very honest with you um I'm going to give you my in my closing what I think yeah there that's the book ell Kap paradoxology you can buy it on Amazon right it's not what you think that's the name of the book it's a paradoxology not what you think on Amazon and uh I'm sure them people returned they right not as I thought it was and um thank you again for coming on again anybody's here the first time every Sunday night at 9:30 we have different share different topic please sprad the word next week January 7th 2024 or on the last moments of 2023 um next week we have amazing sh with Daniel gladin who's tremendous brilliant he speaks on so many topics with such deep insight and the topic is going to be on R Banes the big the famous holy Tana and his message is's going to give up with through the words of's infinite love for the Jewish people in today's day and age be very powerful topic especially in what's going on today in the world please join us let people know and be part of it um tonight's share everything's record.com if has any questions please email coach.com just let me say that my my website is one second okay here tonight's program on the phone it's Shear 169 and you can listen to all the programs over there the number is 848 8777 grow that's 8487 7476 n you can listen obviously to all Coachman's podcast on YouTube Spotify Apple podcast and like a million other podcast things just search Coach man beld and thank you to all the advertising sponsors of lakid scoop Ellen are 51 Central from and from jcn the Jewish contact Network always promoting us on all the digital platforms so I'm going to say a closing my's going to say a closing and Dr ell you'll give them people want to know how they get a hold of you how they can email you where you exist if you live in America you know what I mean or you live in a paradox paradox Universe Paradox Universe yeah right so if there's a way to contact Mars you know maybe they can get the book of Starship but my my my closing is that I think that what I'm taking out of tonight everybody could take it out they want because some people are confused that means the shear was a s success smash what I'm taking out of tonight this is my takeaway is that at the end of the day there is some commonality but you're saying with a lot of different therapy points but there's something very unique about it I find that when you validate our behaviors instead of suppressing them that gives us the freedom of free choice to try to really work on the versus you must do you must do you must do because some people do react well with you must do and they they go through the steps but like you said they could do that and then they crash and I've seen that many times in therapeutic sessions where people work together for a very long period of time and then things start backfiring it's like the whole thing falls apart um I was once saw a a a therapy session for for long time with a client and a therapist and the person did like something like they were working on for like over two years and like they couldn't like they they couldn't continue where they left off whatever it was I don't remember the specific topic but he had such regression and there was no way to rebuild that connection and like he almost like the therapist almost gave up on him it was like how could you do this we've been working on this for such a long time you're doing so well and then you went back you know I'm sure you see this with alcoholics and all these other things you know it's a similar type of P pattern so I think the first thing that I'm seeing from tonight is just the the permission like coach always says to feel and to realize another thing that you're saying which we've said many many times but I just want to reiterate that is we have to always re visit our own behaviors and patterns because as they always say when you do the same thing and you get the same results you know I mean you're not getting anywhere so if you're going to continue screaming at your kids your kids are continue scream at you you continue going to your parent and nothing's going to change and we all know one thing we learned from after 169 sh in four years the only thing that's going to change is you nobody else is going to change we're all on the same page with that and anybody who's not go listen to a different podcast because this podcast about getting the help because nobody really changes for anybody that we know very clearly but the one thing that was interesting it's a little bit different to take away at the end of the day is that when a person gets the permission especially from a therapist that it's okay and plan it out and sort of be okay with it that that will give them the Boost and I I know with anxiety specifically even myself like when you know that you're going to have an anxiety and you play it out and you know that it's okay to have it I think Paradox you know therapy this concept with anxiety would be a home run because sometimes people are in a situation where they have to deal with anxiety and they try to run from it at all cost But ultimately there's certain situations you can't run from it right if somebody has a problem going to their children's PTA or a wedding at the end of the day you have to go to wedding so you have to deal with it but when you give yourself the permission this is what I'm going to feel this is what's going to happen and you play the worst case scenario game or however you play it but you're okay with it you you could heal from that probably quicker then versus trying to say okay when you go there you're going to tell yourself this this and this and you're going to write it down on a notes and you're going because anxiety is the pre you know the biggest anxiety is the pre- anxiety so I think that's that's very informative and it it sounds the reason why people are having a hard time with this because we're we're very used to problem solution you understand we're very used to a equals B over here what we're what what I what I'm taking away and I could be completely wrong I'm tell me if I'm wrong is that over here we're saying a equals a it's not there's no there's no there's no other answer continue but what that's ending up happen people are missing the the the the little twist over here is that when you're actually giving the permission and you're giving the person understanding this is your behaviors this is what you're doing they're going to ultimately realize that they could overcome it and become better because usually when people are fighting or they're having marital issues is because they're trying to prove their point that they're right and they're to this and they're trying to prove prove their position so the battle is always a theoretical and they're going to prove their point to the death over here when you're giving the person permission not saying Dr C you're not saying the person's right and you're not saying that's the right way to be but you're giving them the permission to continue with his thing there's something internally inside whether it's the nsh or the person wants to do the right thing or it's your soul that talks to someone say okay I know this is something I could do just like I know I could smoke drugs just like I know I could you know abuse my spouse I know I could do it and my therapist is saying okay this is your personality continue being you know the person you are that's sort of I don't know if it's a it's a spirit ual thing or it's a self internal thing but it's helping the person self soothe and heal and giving him actually the other choice to say I don't want to do that anymore I want to I want to try a different method and I think that's what we're getting out of tonight and people are having a hard time with that because they're not used to a equals a they're used to a equals B so that's my takeaway and I think how I could apply to myself is that when I deal with my own issues or my own things is that I can give myself permission to understand that's where my struggles are and it's normal for my struggles and hopefully within time and I want the Chain Cycle whatever that struggle is to change that I make my micro steps to change it that it will help eventually get out of that terrible habit of doing the same repetitive thing over and over and over again and getting the same results so I think that's that's my personal takeaway and if I got the whole she wrong that's fine because anyway next year is a new year in 20 minutes is a new year right you give me your clo and then Dr Elliot listen that's we're giving you the time we need contact information number one write it down how to get a hold of you and number three we want to take away that every person that listens to this program will be able to infuse in their personal lives whether they go to their therapy whether or not what they could do to take from tonight and to really help themselves accept themselves and get better and change and have a real meaningful impact on them okay Coach M amazing thanks so much thank you Dr Kaplan um all I want to add is like we started in the beginning like what you mentioned that if people are confused where it's successful now some people think it's a joke again we're dealing with the brain and there it's it's beyond for us to understand really how it works you know therapy we're trying different modalities and tonight we heard another one and this is actually something that Dr mentions that you can actually see people change in front of you it means with one two three sessions so there's something there and even if you didn't understand it fully there you know it's the beginning of something and um again the brain is is much bigger much more than what we think and and it probably it takes you to a place where you're not used to it you know like we heard and that's that's how it slowly helps a human like me to think different see different and eventually make changes but it sounds like it's an amazing modality and if it works it works it's beautiful so yeah for those who need it and for those who feel they were in therapy for so long and not moved here you go take the doctor's number and you know everybody should be able to move change whatever it needs sometimes it's something that we don't understand and we see the change okay Dr Elliot let's go contact information get hold of you how people email you how people harrass you your home soci number and then the closing that people could really take away that could really get help people are really texting me that they're finally getting the general concepts and they feel that it's a fantastic Different Twist and they don't know what to do with it but they hear the the the you said the brain is a little bit expanding right and and that was really my my intent is is if you're walking away from this thinking oh I got contact information contact information contact information I'm getting I give you permission not to listen to me contact information okay um you can check my website is paradox psychology.com um my email is paradox. paradox dooc Gmail uh my phone number and text number is 5 and um I guess in closing I would just uh um you know I think with with other therapies therapies are usually about something you know it's about somatic it's about cognitive it's about Behavior it's about something and I think one of the one of the difficult parts of of and and I I think what I like about Paradox is I myself I'm always learning about it because uh it's a about nothing you know if you think about it what did I do well what did I get what intervention did I say signel exactly it's a it's a therapy about nothing right so the only thing that I've done is I give people permission and in giving people permission it's like I join them and my intent and this is my my entire intent of of the therapy that I do is so that when that person walks out that they're not walking out alone that they feel that they're with some somebody and that when that repetitive situation comes up that there's whether it's conscious or unconscious by the way there's a part of them that feels wow you know like I I've been here before and and I I know what's going on and and uh I'm GNA react differently this time so um so um I I I think that that's what's exciting about Paradox and it's a very he and now method and um um I guess to just leave people with the with the understand understanding that while most therapy talks about the finite part of the person the body the the thinking uh the emotions uh Paradox is really geared toward the that infinite part of the person which which is more related to attachment and bonding which is kind because you can attach to an infinite amount of people and uh it's just an incredible approach okay thank you Dr Kaplan thank you everybody for joining I hope everybody listens to us a few times and does more research it was a beautiful program Dr Kaplan I hope you uh we didn't do such difficult surgery on you but this is what we do try to hope you're okay you should have told me ahead of time no that's the point I'm giving you permission to feel yeah well I I I enjoyed presenting and I I hope that people got something from it thank you very much thank you very much and everybody should have a wonderful holiday weekend and hopefully we'll see you next week with uh Rabbi Daniel glass same time same place and everybody have a great night thank you very much for joining