770 Update w Rabbi Eli Cohen, Exec Dir of Crown Heights Community Council - Rabbi Chaim Dalfin

so welcome to meaningful interviews I'm here today with Rabbi Ellie con who's the executive director of the kheit community council uh good friend and the coim when we were in Northern California Ellie was the SCH in San Francisco and I was a Marine County and um we know each other well and uh I saw your picture Ellie in I don't know how to say it whatever whatever people consider it positive negative questions but uh you stood out there what seemed to be to be making shom peace between the police and uh sarim so I I want to ask a few questions and have you you know explain as much as you can and want um what was your role at the time so first of all uh good evening K it's good to see you and yeah you don't also mention that we share niece and nephew and uh children so that's also uh yeah well your your your your niece is my daughter-in-law so that's also a con a family connection too yes so um I what I you know I run the Crown Jewish Community Council of the important roles that the community council has is to deal with connections with the police department and this is a very important thing we you know obviously Prime is always a concern in Crown Heights and we need them to respond well forcefully when there is crime um recently we had some um we were you know worried about some demonstrations Pro Palestinian demonstrations that were supposed to be in near Crown Heights and we really got the police to mobilize a tremendous Force to make sure that that should not come to close to the neighborhood and successfully so with thanks to the mayor and the police chief and all the way up everyone was very very Cooperative so maintaining positive relationships with the police department is a very important part of what I do and also RAB sperlin also and others sh are involved too so I get a call I was on the way to the office actually wasn't feeling well I went I I stayed home a little bit in the morning I was getting over some flu but I had a meeting in the office and as I'm on the way to the meeting um I get a call police would just call to 770 the some construction was go we knew about the construction already we knew about it for a few days that some some of the uh young men that hang around 770 some of them yes some of them were once now I don't know exactly what they do but they had taken it upon themselves to try and dig out the um space alongside the sh to provide for a space to expand the sh how they got this into the head that it would be successful I have no idea it's um but they had some kind of plan they had it all figured out and after a few months of them doing this it was realized somebody um had noticed that this was going on they called an engineer to see if there was any danger as far as the building is concerned the not only the shore building which it wasn't directly under the shore building but it was under the women's Gallery that's alongside the shaw building which is a separate building to itself so the engineers came they came the the sh came up with a plan to fix the damage to and and they had come with some cement trucks on uh that I guess it was Tuesday afternoon uh to fix the to fill in the space that had been created to make sure that the women's Shool was not in danger so these boys took it upon themselves to use their own bodies toe to prevent the work from being done and then once that happened then some other fell on the inside of the sh decided to try and actually break open the space from the sh into the space next to the sh to try and quote again expand the shore so I was first outside and uh I asked what are the all why are you all standing around why you're preventing the the the the trucks from getting close and then they said well we were inside the sh and the and the Shiva told us to go outside so we went outside so then I go inside the shore and there was a big balagan there was tremendous um a people over there whole crowd standing around and some of these boys had broken a row of cinder blocks to open up the space from the sh to the excavated space outside and H and um there were police there was uh was going a little crazy well I mean it was people were screaming dancing singing shouting whatever and the boys inside the the excavated space were refusing to leave so at that point you know it's this is not a very comfortable situation you have a few hundred people in the sh you have armed policemen they're very well trained they're very disciplined and actually we saw that that they behave very very calmly and took that time to do things appropriately but they had to their job was now to take these people out of this space under a wall which they didn't know if it's safe or it's not safe if it could damaged the building alt together or not I think it I don't know if by that time but soon afterwards the Buildings Department got involved and said that they would need to inspect it to see if there's a problem so the people have to leave and they were refusing to leave so at that point I tried to again my concern is that just shouldn't be a battle between police and Community barem as I said the police are generally very well trained and they don't get lost in these kind of situations even though it's very intimidating years ago the were situations where police were surrounded by an angry mob and people got hurt in the process so it's not something which is so far-fetched they have sticks they have mace they have guns ultimately someone's life feels threatened but so basically my point was to try and plead with the B okay you made your point you know where it's going to go now you need to leave at this point and I first tried just talking to them where they shouted me down then I borrowed a a megaphone from the Police Inspector who was there inspector Smith from the 71st Precinct and just that was my message just stand back if you're not involved in this just get back out of the way if you are involved just go out peacefully but it fell on deaf ears I saw there was no logic going at that moment and at that point I just stepped to the side and let I mean I assure the police that I don't think there's going to be any real danger over here I called somebody else who's close with some of these boys to go in and make sure that they understood that they had that they can't fight they have to come out peacefully and one of the gabim came also Z lipsky he also tried to reason with them and that was also not successful and then we just had to allow the police to move everyone back and take out the ones who are sitting in in the in the good old tra American tradition of using your body to block progress right okay so thank thank you for that update of the real situation on the ground which is very important now um it's several days later uh things have been a week later things have been fixed up um I've read the different uh Pro proclamations and announcements and the rules and regulations what what I want to ask you is I don't know if you saw the clip I made uh last week about this which got a lot of attention and it seems to me and I want to hear if you agree disagree and your opinion it seems to me that there's a greater issue here it's the issue of leadership leadership in the sense that we have like four or five different organizations all involved and not involved we have congregational abich which is who runs the Sho downstairs we have a who owns the building of 770 and I assume the other buildings we have Marcus L which is U you know a main player in in in inad and in these buildings we have the KRON Community Council we have gabim and we have R Rabon so we have all these different leaders and people it just seems to me that this points to the greater issue that there's a breakdown of leadership and if that's so what is your opinion can we really get the leaders to get together where they can live with a compromise because you know kronites is here to stay the sho's here to stay the people are here to stay how can we work it that there is a building owned by a as the Reb re put on the on the building at the front you going to 770 yet the congregation abich which is I think an independent separate Sho congregation with the legal standing and all that um is in there they have difference of of opinions of how to run the Sho can it work that's my question okay so the first the good news here's the good news the good news is that throughout this entire process from when the the digging was first um uncovered and even before that by the way when there was an some additions made additional space that was created for the for for the women's sh and also that's used by the boys during the week for learning right which is recent and through this whole story um there's been a tremendous level of cooperation between the people in the offices upstairs in 770 who affiliated with mostly with me and who they have like a building management team that that takes care of the rest of the building and the sh management which is the gabo now just to correct again it's this is maybe a little subject to interpretation and I happen to be on one side of this discussion but people aabad you mentioned a kabad is the organization of kabad following in the United States and Canada that's what it is so aabad actually is all of us everybody who calls himself AER is a part of aabad there is a v the directorship of aabad they're the trustees that are supposed to maintain the physical property but always since the beginnings of buich in America the reason that aabad was created as an official legal organization was to purchase the sh right the original 770 building which the sh and the Reb said actually when the freed came to the building the first time the first place he went to was the small sh where which was the original shol and he walked in and the reab explained that the reason he went there first is because and he asked the Phil that prayers that are set in the space should be accepted yes why because this was the main purpose okay so this organization was created to provide a sh for the greater members ship of Hab that time was much smaller today it's many thousands tens of thousands and worldwide even but that is the concept since the beginnings of that institution since the day they moved in the actual sh proceedings were run by gabo in the beginning was um Y and Gordon was the gabbi and abam popak I think was a gabbi also in the time of the F and later uh when passed away new were elected patan kPa um the bski bski yeah and Shia Pinson and one other who did not serve at that time but those four served together and they and the re said to them when they were El they were elected actually in an election in 1970 after the passing of RAB Gordon and the rebba said that they should make sure not to displace RAB poak who was a gabbi still from before from the time of the FBA then later there was new elections for gab in the 80s for whatever reason those gab did not serve immediately but they began to serve the instruction of the bason in 1996 and again they were told at that time um or they made sure at that time that the gab who were existing from before the ones who remain from the prior group were should continue to serve alongside the new ones that were appointed or we're given that opportunity at least so that's been the tradition already this is the way the SCH has run and for the last uh 70 years of how long ISAT in America from 1940 1940 to so 80 years so we're already 80 years 84 years8 that's the way yeah that's the way that this organization is run and we um feel as members of the SCH that this is a legal uh basis and that continues to be the question of using landlord tenant court to take out I don't want to even go there but that's but that's another side there is another view but I that's not my view and I don't really want to spend a lot of time on the other view but that so that's so so that's where we are as far so but I don't think that that issue is really relevant a few years ago there's a young man by the name of Lipa liberan is who has done a lot of work to try and see to it the SCH is obviously too small and this is not just something which is physically true but spiritually the Reb spoke about it in and he published a a booklet Bas and it was speaking about the the dudy on every single person to be involved in expanding the shore and people gave at that time they made a small expansion they moved out the bathrooms and other facilities into the basement so there could be more space for ding that was completed in about 1996 and at that time leading up to that the Reb gave out a this spoke he moved personally placed the Cornerstone at the expansion but he hoped at that time for much more he was somewhat disappointed that it only ended up with a limited expansion but the Reb made it clear and people at that time gave literally money they did not have at that time if you gave $770 over the course of several months and I did it too I'm sure you did you could get a a plaque a magnetic plaque that was on a wall in the expansion and that was there for many years until it deteriorated and it was uh removed but but that but the idea was people gave beyond their means because the Reb said it's a obligation on every person to see the sh should be bigger everyone knows that many so many more people came than could fit in the sh dur that there was a 200 foot T set up in the roadway outside the service Lane Service Lane yes yeah in the roadway to allow another few thousand people to be able to have a space to be because and the space between the tent and the shore was also full so there were thousands and thousands of people on the street outside in the tent outside that during TI during the during the y y yes so this is what this is what we're doing with so clearly the sh needs to be expanded there what was a problem years ago why it didn't happen was because some of the buildings were not in uh Jewish hands since that time that is no longer an impediment so all the buildings that need to be um removed in order to for the space for the sh to grow are already available to us in some form or other there may be some details to to be worked out with different owners but there's nobody who says I don't want the sh to be there you know we had was an all non-jewish family that did not want and but they still since that space has been been uh um also acquired so the time of the original so I'm saying the time the original expansion in 1996 that time they thought when the re came out for the for the for the stone placing it was believed at that time they had already a deal to buy the one remaining house that wasn't available but that fell through and that was part of the reason why it wasn't the full expansion at that time but then regardless of that but my point is that Li Lian with the group of other people have been working for a long time to try and bring everybody together to go beyond whatever dispute and say look there has to be a way to work together to have some kind of joint management of the shore and right basically a framework of an agreement was created that would give that would take into account the the needs of both the organizations and the people who D in the show regularly H in other words the central obich organizations and the PE the the people who in the SCH who have also some membership in the sh and unfortunately for whatever reason that deal didn't get to the to the Finish Line it got very close but it didn't get to the Finish Line a couple of years ago there still was some block I don't know what it was exactly but it didn't end up happening but it's a deal which is written it's on paper it's a plan it's ready to happen let me interrup you for a second May interrupt for a second please I I hear but I I do have to we do have to tackle the this other issue and that is so okay wa wait wait wait wait wait wait wait a minute Ellie one second I understand about the expansion the the issue tell me if I'm wrong but isn't the some of the reluctance from the a or the amus who whoever the players the other the other side why they're reluctant is because they don't feel that the sh is following in the way they wanted the Quorum of a Sho to be and that now a am I right or wrong in what I just said give me a brief a brief answer a brief answer is I don't think so I don't think that's the problem I in other words there are yes maybe some people feel I think that the the difference is okay it depend there's two different things over here okay and that that's where we're going with this there's two different things one is there are it's well known there are people for whom the the um the identification of the Reb everyone believes it the Reb said mashia is coming immediately everyone in Lich agrees that the world is going to be a better place it's going to be a beautiful place knowledge of godliness is going to fill the air and that and and Terra believes that the one who brings us to that place is a personia who a who descendant of David and so on the question only is that some organizations within the Lich structure are not so comfortable with saying that directly that the rebba is the one that leads that um that leads that Redemption especially since the since the passing of the but even if we accept that the point is the theorum and the SCH they that's okay so I was gonna say they don't want a p we correct okay we're getting there I know I understand why you're going and we're getting get there so that so that issue is the non-issue that's the what I want to say that's the one where you could work out a compromise the issue of how upfront are you with saying that the re is mashia the Reb is one that's leading us to the Redemption to say long live re which is said at certain by you know by people everyone can figure that out what's a problem is that we have a young group of students who have over the years become more and more and more determined to act out every single Nuance of activity that that was done around the reer in the in mostly in the late uh 80s into 1990 and 91 and make as if the Reb is walking in now he's walking out now he's going here he's going there he's doing this activity that activity and they've turned this into a sort of religion of their own and and the the gabim have not had either the support and or the strength to be able to prevent this which is clearly it's just disruptive because it's sometimes it's done with you know with with some kinds of people have been hurt in the process of getting in the way of this some people are very bothered by it other people feel it's a massive imperative and it's very it's up to the gabim to set a tone but they they need help to be able to enforce it whatever tone they set is is is upheld and that's been the discussion that's been the discussion over the last few days in around the circles that that that I'm in right is about specifically this issue right how do we see to it that theorum is enforced in the show one second I want to go back I want to go back for a second I hear you but I want to go back wait wait wait no no no no no one second are youe are you telling me Ellie are you telling me that the the the am and the a are going to accept and are happy with the big signo on the wall of 770 Sho I think that that that issue can be worked out in negotiation it's exactly how it should look where it should be how many should be what that's not the issue that's holding us back the issue the issue that's holding us back is just the will to want to get it done the the the side issue of what to do about the lack of dorum I think if there was a serious commitment by everybody we're all working together as we have done in the last couple of weeks then the other issue will go away I just want to say one thing though the big missing element over here that you did not mention when you listed all the people that are not providing leadership you left one big elephant out of the room and that is the Yesa temp yes I I I I I reminded myself afterwards but I didn't want I agree with you yes because Thea for many years has been bringing here groups from it's known as so this was a thing that wanted that the people from should come here for one year to learn to live in the atmosphere of the Reb's uh presence to and to acquire the feeling of what it means to be connected to what happens in the re Center and they come for before Tish one year and they go home after Tish the next year and unfortunately every group that's come over the last few years has been determined to show that they're one step more extreme than the group that was before them so and that and the Yesa that brings them has absolutely refused and abdicated its responsibility to do anything about it why I don't know I don't I do know I do know okay then you know better than me and you want to know why go ahead because without these 200 B 770 is all quiet still silence low key these boys from SAS from AR are fire Brands we all know that and Yesa needs such guys to make the place happen I think that's the reason well it's you know what there is a lot of enthusiasm but they have a lot of boys and they come from a lot of different places with a lot of different views and not all of them f are focused this way so from the let's say I don't know I think even 400 boys came this year 200 are from different Yas another hundred are from even depending on even what what different feeling yet yes the ones who are very enthusiastic about mhia are a little more enthusiastic about everything right but you will see that there are many many boys who are not from these isas who go on the Wednesday hour to go and teach kids and tank they go out into Mitzvah campaigns into the offices so they are engaged they are involved and I don't I think that it's not a contradiction you could have both at the same time you could have you can harness the enthusiasm and you can provide Direction youra you're bringing people your job is is education to do it the right way to make sure that you have a basic control over your students and if someone is not following the rules I'm sorry you will uh you don't belong here right so here's the question the yes's administration Thea known as 770 um where do they fit in in the scheme of a and con laich do they have an equal ownership to the building at even spiritually no well I would say that they're a guest in the the building so I even Thea has always been there since the beginning so traditionally it's had but it never had a management role in in the building it only was involved they were there they used to they used to participate in the costs at some point they stopped but they used to participate in the cost of maintaining the building but theiva was is does not have any legal standing in the building as because it's it's a guest so a guest here today you don't go by the rules but spiritually yes I'm not I'm talking about legally and physically but not Ellie not even spiritually the the previous re he wanted Thea in 770 of course yeah spiritually yes spiritually they have what do you mean spiritually he wanted them physically to be in the Yeshiva in this building right but it's and Yesa was there from day one no question about it then he used to be exactly then that time it was the young kids by the way it wasn't the I know okay but then got older you know but there was later there was later a time when there said that the kuta groups should not learn in 770 only the older boys that are after kuta and the kuta actually went then and my in the time that I was learning in Thea the groups were in another building which is across Eastern Parkway have block down there a big sh over there which now Murphy sh Murphy sh yeah which now has there's an other groups there but the Yesa Anda but not the and not the Senor so the I think the old in in in my time that I studied in Yesa and probably when you were there only the oldest most senior boys in the last year or two right the they were in that building right and the others were elsewhere what's your point what's your point my point is that if the the younger boys should be there on condition that they can follow rules and behave and if not they the Yesa should not allow them to be there and if the and if they are busy instead of learning and doing the things they have to do they're busy with organizing different activities in the shore which are not which are not connected to them which have no b no connection to their studies then with with you know with full apology let them take it elsewhere so so basically what I'm hearing from you is that you're kind of putting the blame it sounds like you make you putting the blame on the administration of the Yeshiva is that correct I a large part of it I can't say anybody's fully to blame and I can't say anybody's fully not to blame all of us have some responsibility a large part of this belongs to the sh let's go back to what you put under the rug before because it has to be discussed please briefly the landlord tenant issue could you please address that well um about now is 2014 so and I think 2024 now 2020 24 24 in 2011 I believe or 2012 I'm not sure so 12 or 13 years ago a um eviction proceeding was begun by um a goodus Americas to remove the sho from the premises right and the and the reason and the reason there was no reason given they it's a what they call it's an eviction proceeding where terminating your license till now you were welcome now you're not welcome anymore it's and they don't need proced they're the owners if you on a home right if you're on a building you're on a house right and somebody has somebody's living in your apartment right but why do you think they did that um I don't know that's a very good question but they did it I don't think it was a smart move it didn't get good publicity in the newspaper they did you don't think they did it because they disagreed with the philosophical IDE ideological ideas of mm that the congregational babage was on that trajectory you don't think that was the reason I do think that was the reason but that's not something you do in land Lieutenant Court land Lieutenant Court is for a owner and a tenant it's not for an organization which has differences about how you run things when it's a internal dispute into how you run things that does not belong in land Lieutenant court so that's so what happened since then go ahead well nothing's happened it's now 20 it's now 13 years later um about uh 2017 after the case was over the judge came to actually see the premises she walked around and she um and then in 2020 she issued a decision the SCH is appealing that decision the decision was the did have to leave the premises but that is now appealed the appeal was heard a few weeks ago and in What's called the appell term and the judges from the appell term have to give a decision but again that all that is is basically you know the claim from the schul side is this is not a land Lieutenant dispute about whether the sh should be here or shouldn't be here this is a a dispute about how the sh should be run and that doesn't belong in l court so I'm hopeful and the judges looked very understanding of the's point of view so but we'll see what what the final result is but I think in a way it's an excuse to wait let's wait until it's over in order to do what we have to do which expand theal which to meet is ridiculous because this will continue on still for a long time but if we can have an opportunity and we can all get together and figure things out why do we need to have a lawsuit all we need to do is get together and build raise money and build and I believe that there'll be plenty plenty of support for um for for building the Sho this is something which the whole world has an interest in the I was just recently in another in a schul in in in yam where they have 25 more than 2500 uh seats in the main hall of the Sho we have maybe 700 seats so we have a it's very possible to build a big and beautiful and expansive the space is there the money could be raised the will is there and the few details have to be worked out and it could be done in no time at all okay so so um you don't anticipate a quick decision by the appet court the it's not the final thing you know there are still levels of appeal again we're in this already 13 years and everybody was saying at the beginning oh a few more months a few more months a few more months even goes there was another case before this one after the stone so this is actually going on for 20 years since 2004 in another case and everyone was saying and I have recordings of people saying 15 years ago oh a couple of months we're going to be in there so this is not the way to resolve it through the way to resolve it is through an agreement so so um since this Fiasco of last week um do you see any positive movement in that direction coming wait coming from the AK America side yeah there have been some new discussions there are still a few holdouts up there that are not interested in in a compromise but I would say that most people there and most people elsewhere are interested in compromise we've seen some tremendous strides in the way that people have worked together to resolve I mean it's a miracle you I don't know if you deal with the anything to do with buildings or if you've any had had any dealings the idea that did not California did okay that's a few years ago but in New York to get permissions to get approvals is very difficult and the city went L literally was amazing to and contractor was amazing Yi AR Yi langsam came in with a whole crew and in two days they reinforced the wall they filled in the the hole they put in new paneling they I mean to do this kind of repair in your house would take three or four months and they did the whole thing in two or three days amazing so when people work together amazing things can be accomplished Way Beyond uh what anyone could imagine and it will be here too God willing Now One Last Thing Before we sign off there's uh I saw the announcement there going to be uh elections for a new board in 14 months and also to bring in a third ROV is that correct the time well right now I think we have to do this piece by piece I I think it would be a a mistake to rush ahead and try and do everything at once so the first step we there's a tradition that goes back about um to 197 1986 so that's how many years about uh 38 years right the tradition of the community leadership including the raban and being elected by the entire community so we now the Basin is a situation where unfortunately RAB passed away a few years ago we we are very much feeling the need for to fill the base and to have three rabot Rabbi o should live long Rabbi bruy are doing a tremendous job and they've really come together over the last couple of years to work on a lot of things but the we still need the third R but in order to get to that point I think we have to get through another step first which is to have what's called vadak which is a communal the communal organizations that are supposed to support the basedin are ready to be refreshed with new new blood the people in there right now really feel that it's time time to pass the torch usually it's supposed to be a three-year term they've been in for for 13 years already they they really put in that time so before we go to the next step I think we're going to see a um an election for V call First probably before the summer the date that we spoke about is June 16 and then following that will be after a few months once things get stabilized I think then we'll be able to start working on the election of another of the and also um if there are people interested and at some point there should be an election also for you know every so often we have election for gabim of 77 that probably will take place at sometime in the future too but I it's a very difficult step Pace to walk into right now so I I don't think that it will be profitable to try and do everything at once let's get the vam first let's deal with the rim next and then we'll go to the gab we'll be step three so so even the gab's election is under your jurisdiction the crime no it's not no actually I'm a worker I just work for the community council right I have a little institutional knowledge because I've been around a couple of Cycles so I know what's going on right some of the people who were involved in the past have not been involved so I'm trying to just advise and push to make it happen but right ultimately the group that does all this work of creating the elections are the sh representatives from all the shes of Crown Heights they've started to meet and we got a very good response finally that a lot of many schs have come together there's a good spirit of Act of working together to make it happen and I think it's going to happen very soon thank you very much thank you very much and everything we have to sign off now amen