💰 עסק או ביש - פרק 14: עובדים עליכם: עו"ד איתן ארז חושף את עולם העוקצים

You should know, this world is one big jungle. The entire business world is a jungle. There are two options here. Either you sit at the table or you are part of the menu. Business or Bust, between promises and reality behind the scenes of the real estate world. Host: Yossi Play. Hello to you viewers, dear guests, listeners. We are in another episode of "Esek-Ove." This time we have a very important guest, one of the top lawyers in Israel, whose main specialty is receiverships, liquidations—what is called the terror of the scammers. Hello, Attorney Eitan Erez. >> Hello and greetings. >> Thank you for coming. How are you? >> Excellent, thank God. >> Great. So, give us some background on your work. How many years have you been in the field? You've handled the most highly publicized cases in the State of Israel? >> I have been a lawyer for 40 years. I dealt mainly—my specialty is insolvency, what are called bankruptcy cases. Company liquidations, company restructuring, and chasing after scammers, and thank God, you know, Israel is a land flowing with milk and scammers. >> Yes. >> And here Israel is a paradise for scammers, so thank God... >> Lots of work. You are also a member— we spoke in a preliminary conversation that you are a member of some organization that... >> In Europe, there is an organization called INSOL—INSOL from the word insolvency—in which 1,500 lawyers from all over Europe are members, and I had the honor of being for six years the chairman of the anti-fraud forum, a forum that deals with ways to avoid fraud, how to beware of scams, and how to pursue scammers and get some of the money back. >> Okay, so it should also be noted—and I was very impressed when I read this —that you have returned to date in the order of 1.5 billion shekels. >> One and a half billion shekels I returned to people over the last 25– 30 years in all sorts of cases, from Avraham Gindi, Baranovich, Shaar Efraim , and so on, there is... >> Just, in percentages, I'm just curious: like, in percentages relative to the size of the scam, how much do those scammed actually see on average? I mean , how much? Look, that is a very, very good question. A, there are cases I didn't handle, for example, Moni Fanan, who was at Maccabi Tel Aviv basketball —he stole $ 20 million, none of the people received anything, they didn't get a shekel. I didn't handle that case . Uh, in the cases I handled, people get between 20 and 40%, which is a lot. In Ponzi scams, it's a lot, because most of the money goes to pay interest to those at the beginning. >> They lend money to the scam. >> Okay, now before we really dive into very interesting stories that you handled personally, our goal is ultimately to provide tools from someone who understands this field best : first of all, how to be careful, and another thing: if, God forbid, you were already scammed and fell into a trap, what do you do next? I mean, how to act immediately? Just a general question: is the State of Israel a paradise for scammers, as many tend to say, or are we overall in good company with similar characteristics, or are we... >> No, no, no, this is an idiom that I coined; I have copyrights on this idiom and it is registered with the Patent Registrar, stamped and sealed. >> The State of Israel is a paradise for scammers, and why—this is very interesting to your question—why is Israel a paradise for scammers? >> Why? >> First of all, the law. >> A state of law? First of all, the police are very weak. The police are weak and hardly deal with fraud cases. The courts are merciful, sons of merciful people. The public, a large part of the public, are very naive, very naive. Kibbutz members are naive, new immigrants are naive, the Haredim are very naive. The Haredim are perhaps the most naive segment of the population. >> Why? >> Why are they naive? They are belie— >> They are more trusting, because they are occupied with the yoke of Torah, and they trust their friends, and trust all sorts of others, and don't exactly know what a Sales Law guarantee is, or what a land registry caveat is, or what a bank guarantee is. Ah, yes, there is —there is no financial education at all in Israel. Another reason there are many scams in Israel is that for 20 years there was a zero-interest environment; when there is a zero-interest environment, low interest , people who have money in the bank go crazy that the money isn't working, yes . >> So that is another reason. And there are also many smart people here. The Jewish brain, the Jewish head, there are many smart people. So there are smart people who invent patents in high-tech and there are smart people who scam. >> There is also a reluctance, I think when we talk about the Haredi public, there is a reluctance regarding the authorities. Meaning, many times they are reluctant to approach or file a complaint. >> Reluctant regarding the authorities. There are Haredim who do not turn to civil courts, only in special cases. And also, the special Haredi rabbinical courts don't really know the subject of fraud and scams; they deal perhaps with family matters. >> Yes. >> So Israel is truly a paradise for crooks. I told you, the courts are merciful, sons of merciful people. Look , in the United States, whoever pulls a Ponzi scheme, whoever steals millions of dollars in a scam, he goes to prison for 30, 40 years. 40 years. >> Unequivocally. >> So here, there were those who went for five years and seven years and nine years, but I think the enforcement isn't severe enough on these scams. >> I'll tell you a very interesting anecdote about this. There is the book "Gulliver's Travels." >> Written by the English author Jonathan Swift 300 years ago, he tells that Gulliver arrived in the land of the dwarfs, in Lilliput. He met the king of the dwarfs, and the king told him that for fraud offenses there is a death penalty there in Lilliput. So Gulliver said to him: "Specifically for fraud there is a death penalty?""Why not for murder?""Not for robbery?""Why specifically for fraud is there a death penalty?" So he said that no fence can help a person defend himself against someone smarter than him. Against a fraud offense, one cannot defend oneself if there is someone smarter than you. >> Is there some shared DNA among all those crooks and scammers, or do you identify— >> They are all charismatic. >> Okay. >> It's written in my book, I wrote a book . >> Your book? So, here is the book, "The Hour of Fraud"(Sha'at Me'ila). You had a religious copywriter, "The Hour of Locking"(Sha'at Ne'ila), "The Hour of Fraud." Nice, here is the book, we will show it. It truly provides a review of cases you handled and also gives some kind of guide. A guide—a guide for self-defense. Very important. Very important. I went through it, I would love to read it. >> Ah, that's it. So where, by the way, where can one get it? Whoever wants to? >> You can find it at the Victory chain, they sell it at the checkout counters in Victory supermarkets, and it's available at Tzomet Sfarim, and there is also a digital edition on the Ivrit website. Yes. Okay, so to my question regarding the DNA—that you identify a common DNA, >> I write in the book, all con artists are charismatic. For a con artist to be a con artist, he must be charismatic, be nice, tell good jokes, be well-dressed. He will always drive a Mercedes S500, wear good perfume, and have very luxurious offices. >> For show—the offices must be luxurious. He radiates success; five minutes after meeting you, you’re already his "brother," his "darling," his "soul," and after 10 minutes he’s already inviting you to his home. You need to be very wary of some people— be wary of people who are too nice at first, be wary of them. >> Be wary of people who promise you high interest; if someone tells you, "With me, you get 2%a month, 3%a month," >> No matter what the business actually did, >> It doesn’t matter, you get a fixed amount—be wary, and in general, be wary of excessive niceness. >> Excessive niceness. Now, there is the issue I spoke about in previous clips: excessive pressure. Meaning, he pressures you as soon as you arrive at the meeting and he immediately wants you to sign— "last apartment, last one.""If not, I’ve made an exception, I saved it for you, and there are many people waiting in line." >> Take your legs and run. Even if you were given coffee, macarons, and cookies—it’s all nice. Take your legs and run. You know, it reminds me of a case that happened in the Inbalor affair. I was the liquidator of Inbalor , where one of their marketing people found a victim and told him: "Last apartment, last apartment, now, now, now." And they drove to that guy's bank , a bank in the Hatikva neighborhood, to transfer 700,000 shekels, to make an immediate transfer. And that same victim came with the same Inbalor marketer to the bank and told the branch manager (it was a woman): " Transfer 700,000 shekels now, urgent, urgent, urgent." So she told him: " Listen, this is a scam, there is no apartment, you won't get an apartment, there’s no land registration, there isn't one, you won't get it.""Transfer it, if not, I'm leaving the bank." She told him, "I am not transferring it, do whatever you want." He got angry and left. A few days later, Inbalor went bankrupt; he sent a huge bouquet of flowers to that bank manager who saved him, saved his money. Yeah? But also as you say, urgent, urgent. >> Yes, urgent. "Now, quickly, otherwise you lose out." Listen, there is now, as we know, housing prices today have on one hand skyrocketed. Something is currently in a deep freeze; it is almost—almost impossible today for a young couple to purchase an apartment. Although the public, and many also appeal to the Ultra-Orthodox public, they somehow manage by the skin of their teeth, parents help, they somehow arrange it, but still, today the situation is truly almost impossible. And a new trend has entered: investments in the capital market. In other words, the public says: "I don't have a lot of money, I have about 100,000 or 200,000 shekels, and I receive tons of offers with ads, with guys making promises and all sorts of gimmicks." I will also show you ads that are combinations of capital markets and investments and loans. What is this story? That’s where, by the way, we get into the affair you also handled, the Slice affair, which is a crazy story. Elaborate a bit on the Slice story, and it connects to... I’ll talk about the capital market in general first. In the capital market, one must be very careful. Very careful. A: The Securities Authority is quite weak and doesn't supervise the offerings well enough. In recent years, you've had junk offerings; they are issuing junk. What do they call it? American bonds. Regarding American bonds, our listeners should know that the public has lost something like 12 billion shekels in recent years. They take a company that isn't American at all, registered in the British Virgin Islands, which has a property in the US that is mortgaged to a bank in the US, and they issue these bonds, this junk. It’s not even an asset because it’s worth nothing, it’s basically mortgaged, and they issue it in Israel. And here, innocent people buy these bonds, or investment managers, for all sorts of ulterior motives, maybe also buy this junk, and that’s how people lost all their money in all these Urban companies and the like. Bonds that were issued in the last five years, they lost 12 billion. People need to be very careful in the capital market, very, very careful, consult with a certified investment advisor who has a license, perhaps consult with a banker, don't go from... >> What, what is the significance? The public needs to understand, to clarify: what is the meaning of turning to an investment advisor who is not licensed? He doesn't work under any responsibility, he has no education, no knowledge, you have no one to sue, and he also has no insurance. >> Look, when you go to a serious professional, it doesn't matter if it's a lawyer, an architect, or a doctor, you know there is professional liability insurance behind them. If something happens, there is an insurance company. You cannot work with amateurs; it’s dangerous. >> What was the story with Slice? There it was hundreds of millions, a billion shekels disappeared. A billion! A billion shekels. I represent the members in the United States and Georgia. >> And Georgia, yes. >> Slice, yes. The State of Israel made some serious mistakes. The state is responsible here for negligence. The state gave approval for the management of provident funds under personal management. Meaning, instead of you depositing your money in a provident fund like Phoenix or Migdal or Clal Insurance or a company like that, and they decide what to invest in, you deposit it in a company like Slice, but you decide where your money will be invested, if it will be invested in this stock or another stock. That was the idea behind it, because on the surface, it sounds more tempting, because I am supposedly in control of the investment. >> Yes, and from there it deteriorated very quickly to the point where people were also receiving loans. After all, when your savings are in a provident fund, you cannot withdraw them until retirement age; they are blocked. It was intended for people to have something for old age, to have money, so they were given loans. And against those loans, they mortgaged and sold their rights. But the biggest problem is that at Slice, whoever managed Slice , managed to make a billion shekels disappear abroad—to the United States , Georgia, Russia, all sorts of places —and this has been going on for three years. And the state is definitely guilty of negligence here; the state did not supervise Slice well. And the proceedings are currently ongoing. I represent the victims. Well, have some of the funds already been successfully recovered? Not yet, not yet. >> Tell me about those companies. >> I brought, I just brought an achievement, I brought 27 million dollars, I brought 27 million dollars from Georgia, and the authorized manager opposes, opposes receiving the 27 million dollars because he... >> Why, why? It probably bothers him that I succeeded at this and he didn't, but never mind, it will play out in the courts; don't worry, in the end, we will get money for the members. >> Tell me, just a question again here from experience. >> Those types, those bandits or "jewels," as they're called, do they enter with intent on purpose at the beginning with the goal to sting, or is it not at the beginning? >> Do they start well and develop, and then look to... >> From my experience, from my experience —and it's rich with all the crooks, and I truly handled Ran Mizrahi, the sting, and Inbal Or, and Eli Reifman, and Mike Ben Ari—people, at the beginning, the business is legitimate. >> Okay. >> But when do they start to cheat? When difficulties begin, when suddenly there's a credit crunch, no sales, no liquidity—that's when they start to sting. After all, if you take her, what did she do in the end? Since she didn't have money, she sold air. She held negotiations with landowners, didn't sign a contract with them, had no real rights, had no grip on the land, and she was already marketing that same land she was only in negotiations for. She marketed to 200 people future rights, and each one paid 200 thousand shekels on account of that. >> So she sold air; it's called selling air. For such a thing in the United States, you go for 40 years to prison. >> 40 years, no less. >> So in Israel, she received 7 and a half years. >> Yes, but you'll agree with me that it's a mistake. Because if he starts—if a person starts off with integrity and good intentions, this shift he makes in the middle, transitioning from a so-called legitimate businessman to a crook, it's more sophisticated. It's hard for you to identify; it's much easier to identify someone who came from the start in order to work you over. Ah, and there are many such cases , as you start, there are those, but unequivocally, there are those who start with intent, intended for what is called a Ponzi from the start; meaning, there is no intent, no deal, nothing behind it. >> Right, there are pyramid schemes, Ponzi , this is Ponzi, he is the inventor of the method, it's Carlo, it's a person, it's named after a person, Carlo Ponzi, it seems, Charles Ponzi, yes. >> Charles Ponzi, Carlo Ponzi, he was Italian at all. >> Right, the Italian who immigrated to the United States. >> Who immigrated to the United States, to Boston, yes. >> Let's pause for a second on the topic of...speaking of which, you mentioned City Real Estate, Inbal Or, and all that—the issue of purchasing groups. You really are one of the experts in the field. It’s less than it used to be—I mean, there were times when it was huge—but the issue of purchasing groups still exists. From your perspective, what are the red flags, the warning signs? >> First of all, the public should know that there are serious organizers out there. There are good organizers, too, like the Hagag brothers or Israel Canada. There are good organizers, but there are also many bad ones—amateurs , unprofessional ones. The public needs to understand how a purchasing group actually works, how it functions in general. Yes, there is an organizer. There is...he draws up an organizer agreement or a marketing agreement, which usually, according to these contracts, means as soon as he finishes organizing the group, he steps out of the picture, and there is a sharing agreement. A sharing agreement, which all the group members sign, and they are essentially the sovereign. Their representation actually communicates with a contractor and so on, but there are many tricks and many dangerous things in this; for example, putting in dummy representatives who are actually proxies or puppets of the organizer— that’s one of the dangers. Now, in a purchasing group, I must not move a millimeter without a lawyer—not a millimeter! Experience shows that when a purchasing group collapses—and just look at how many collapsed in the last five or ten years—I think 4,000 families were hurt just from the collapse of purchasing groups. You have Inbal Or, which had about 600 families, you have Eldad Peri, which I think was 2,500 or 3,000 families, you have Rom Kinneret that collapsed with another 500 families. So one needs to be very, very careful. Experience shows that in purchasing group collapses, whoever was represented by a lawyer, checked things , and registered a cautionary note in the land registry...for example, at Inbal Or, I returned about 150 million shekels to people: those who had a cautionary note in the registry got between 70%and 100%of their money back; those who didn't have a cautionary note at Inbal Or got 3%to 5%—meaning they lost almost all their money. Therefore, I truly call on the general public, and the ultra-Orthodox public in particular , not to enter into any real estate adventure without consulting a lawyer. >> One who understands real estate. >> What was the story with the Sarona complex? Was that also a purchasing group? >> The Sarona complex, that is a tragedy, the Sarona complex. >> Where it was, by the way—and it's not like it was an uninformed public; it was a very knowledgeable and highly intelligent public—and yet, it was an amazing affair, the Sarona affair, from which the organizers emerged unscathed. >> Okay. >> Ah, the Sarona affair. They bought a plot—instead of buying a plot worth 700 million, they bought it for a billion and a quarter. And the Israel Land Authority, their hands aren't clean either, for letting that happen. And let's just say, anyone they promised an apartment for 4 million shekels...anyone who was promised an apartment in 2014-2015 for 4 million shekels is getting it now, after 11 years, and they are paying double the amount. >> So, this means that even when a buying group works correctly and is organized, it's a whole ordeal. >> A buying group is an ordeal because you have two ironclad principles: you have no final price. >> And you have no delivery date. When you buy an apartment from a contractor— let's say you just bought an apartment from a contractor like Yossi Avrahami —you get a final delivery date in the contract, a Sales Law guarantee, and a final price. Three things—three things you don't have in a buying group . Yes, you have no final price, you have no final delivery date, and you have no Sales Law guarantee. >> And in fact, as you say, with a contractor, since there is compensation involved, he is supposed to pay your rent, he is supposed to pay you for the delay today. >> Clearly, with a penalty and so on. And he, in a buying group, even when it's ...especially when a buying group is really...uh... >> This is what really happened, exactly what you asked about in Tel Aviv-Sarona : people bought in 2014-2015 and are receiving the apartments after 11 years at a price double what they thought. >> Give me the story, what's one of the cases you handled where you said, " Listen, this is an event that, so to speak, I can't believe I'm getting into such an event," or that the person was so sophisticated that you said, "Listen , he's not a sucker, so to speak." >> So, that's Mike Ben-Ari. It's the Mike Ben-Ari affair. Who...uh...maybe we can show our viewers a picture of Mike Ben-Ari? Do we have that there? Mike Ben-Ari, that is...Found it, yes. >> This is a con man who swindled 1,000 families, and out of those 1,000 families, my partner, Adv. Lmor Ben-Shushan, and I represent 740 families. >> Okay. >> Mike Ben-Ari, first of all, that's not his name. By the way, parentheses, my friend: changing names. We didn't talk about changing names. You asked what the faces of con men are like. Many con men change their names. Inbal Or wasn't born Inbal Or—Miriam Krief is her name. Boris Ben-Zi, that's also one who swindled—his name is Boris Benishvili . Yes, Eldad Peri, his name was Eldad Yifrach. >> Okay, and Mike Ben-Ari too? >> Mike Ben-Ari is Michael Green. Mike Ben-Ari. And also Gregory Lerner changed [it] to Zvi Ben-Ari. Gregory Lerner also swindled several tens of millions. >> Yes. >> So, con men like to change names. First of all, you always need a catchier name , a catchier one, yes. After all, if you see who could be a better con man —Kalman Hershkowitz, or some name that sounds...even a name that sounds national, sounds like... >> Yoaz Yogev, you need a name like a pilot, a beautiful name that’s also international. Right, exactly. >> Yes. >> So this Michael Green, Mike Ben-Ari, swindled [people] for 18 years, swindled 1,000 families. And as you know, everyone swindles their own kind: an Arab swindles Arabs, a Haredi swindles Haredim, a Russian [Jew] swindles Russians, like Gregory Lerner. And Mike Ben-Ari, he swindled Ashkenazim, mainly, and mostly Anglo-Saxons, because he was American, and mostly women. >> By the way, women—women over the age of 50 who are unmarried are very, very vulnerable to scams, yes. >> Yes. >> He swindled 1,000 families out of 450 million shekels, 450 million shekels, and smuggled most of the money to the Balkans—to Montenegro, to Serbia, to Romania, and also to the United States. >> Uh. >> And he managed to keep his Ponzi scheme going for 18 years, which is—usually, a Ponzi scam burns out after between two to four years. For example. >> Wait, explain, because in a Ponzi scheme, you're actually churning air. In other words, you constantly need new deposits to pay the person who invested . >> Nice. And only the first ones profit. The first ones profit. The first ones who gave money and received high interest, if they ran off with the interest and the principal, they profit . Can you actually sue them for that today? Yes. >> Right, right. There is a new type of lawsuit called a "clawback." >> That's in the United States, it's not Israel. It already applies, I brought it here to Israel, yes, it exists in Israel too. What does it mean? One needs to know, it means that... >> It's a lawsuit, in English they call it "claw" C-L-A-W. That's a bird's talon, the talons of a bird of prey. >> Yes, that they snatch it back from them . >> Oh, even those who already took the... >> Those who took the interest in the beginning. The one who invented this is the greatest receiver in the world, the receiver from Madoff's liquidation. He managed to get six billion dollars from one person, someone who received six billion from Madoff, he has to pull all those six billion back. >> What are you saying? >> Yes. >> Meaning, even if you already received the money, don't be relaxed; if everything blows up, you are next. Meaning, they will take it from you. >> True, true, true. So in a Ponzi scheme, as you asked, as you said, the first ones profit, but really it's air upon air. So you can toss these balls in the air like a juggler for a year or two. >> Until someone asks to withdraw one time too many. >> Exactly. That's what happened with Moni Fanan, that suddenly some Maccabi Tel Aviv player came and demanded 800,000 euros that he owed him, he needed it today to buy an apartment, he didn't have it, so he committed suicide. >> The event ended, yes. >> But two people in the world managed to keep a Ponzi running for 18 years. Usually, it's four years, that's the maximum they manage to keep it going. >> Two people in history managed to keep it going for 18 years, one is Madoff in the United States. >> He is the professor of this subject. >> He is a professor, if he truly... >> By the way, if he hadn't done the subprime, and it had continued, if there hadn't been the 2008 crisis, maybe it could have continued for another 30 years, by the way. >> Unequivocally, unequivocally, he would forge the reports, he would forge reports. >> By the way, I have a whole chapter in my book about Madoff, that he would cheat even at golf, even when he played golf with his friends, even there he would cheat. >> By the way, it should be said that Madoff, people, as you already said, mentioned it at the beginning, people think, you know, a crook is some guy from the street. No, Madoff was, I think, the head of the Nasdaq for a period, he was a very... >> He was on the board of the Nasdaq, he was very respected, he was certainly... he appeared as an economic commentator, as a very serious man, you know, it's not... >> Yes. >> Look, Madoff, I think the most interesting thing about Madoff is that about 10 years before he fell, some accountant from the U.S. filed a complaint with the SEC, the American Securities and Exchange Commission, and said, "Guys, this man is a crook, it's a Ponzi," he filed a written complaint with everything, all the evidence. They ignored him. That accountant even wrote a book about it. But Madoff, really, so wait for a moment... >> He got 150 years, yes. >> 150 years, yes. >> Yes, he died in prison after 11 years. >> One son committed suicide, I think. >> One of his sons committed suicide, yes. >> They destroyed the whole family, the story. >> So Mike Ben Ari also managed to run his Ponzi for 18 years. He used to promise people a high interest rate, promised them 2%a month. The whole trick for con artists in a Ponzi is to delay payouts. Meaning, if you come after a year or two and say: "Listen, give me back my money with the 2%monthly interest," he convinces you: "Don't need it now, there's a new investment, you'll get a bonus, you'll get 3%a month, you'll get more." The whole trick is to delay the payouts; in that, both Madoff and Mike Ben Ari were champions. >> By the way, when Madoff collapsed, there was some French count who invested a billion dollars with him—a billion, not a million, a billion dollars. It's written in the book, he committed suicide immediately, that French count committed suicide, poor guy. >> Regret, heartbreak, yes, like he couldn't look at it. >> Disappointment too, like, "How did they trick me? How did they trick me?" And that Mike you're talking about, how much did he manage to rake in? >> Mike—no, not Mike, he took 450 million shekels from people, but you're asking how much he has left at the end after all the schemes. >> According to all our checks, mine and my partner, lawyer Ben Shushan, he has maybe a million euros left. It's nothing, a million euros. We managed to reach almost everything there. >> There was some story about some mines in Montenegro, or how was it? >> So I'm handling that, my trusted friend and colleague Lior Dagan, who is doing excellent work—there is a bauxite mine in Montenegro. >> Bauxite is what they use to make... >> Aluminum. >> Yes, so he transferred 20 million euros just there. So right now it's being handled; he transferred it all over the world, to the US, South Africa, Serbia, Romania. >> Now, by the way, not by chance—tell me if I'm wrong—not by chance did he move his business to Montenegro, because, let's say, the judicial system in Montenegro and the justice system, and that is... >> Montenegro, look, there is in... >> As much as you have criticism of Israel , come on, you don't want to be judged in Montenegro. Israel is paradise compared to Montenegro, because Montenegro is...Black Mountain, Montenegro is Black Mountain. >> It's not a Black Mountain, it's a black hole. You have two crime countries in Europe: Albania and Montenegro. >> Okay. >> There's a lot of monkey business there in Montenegro, and you're right, it's not by chance he moved there. >> You can get citizenship there, have connections with the government, and then... >> He got Serbian citizenship, and he made a mistake once—he accidentally crossed into Bosnia, and he was arrested at the border crossing between Serbia and Bosnia. >> I contacted the prosecutor's office for extradition, a long story, he was extradited from Bosnia, he was in prison in Sarajevo. >> Tell me, you're not...you're not worried sometimes? Aren't you afraid? You're dealing with guys here involving amounts that are life-changing, you know, surely they are connected to people who, let's say, aren't the Ramat Aviv Gimmel book club. I've asked myself that quite a few times, but come on, thank God, I also see this as a mission. Listen, I see this as a mission. I believe the Holy One, Blessed is He, sent me here to help...I see this as helping the victims. It’s a mission, it really is a mission, because listen, I...I see the victims, these poor people who don’t have money for medication. Listen, in the Mike Ben-Ari case, there are elderly women, one who was living in her car, living in her car, who don’t have money for medication. This is no joke, it’s really like that too. >> Who surely saved their entire pension and all of that. >> Also, with Ben-Ari, who was it who bought properties from them? Simple guys. You know, someone who was in the army for three years, saved shekel by shekel, worked as a pizza delivery guy, worked and put 100,000 or 200,000 shekels there. People from the working class, not like you said, correctly, that the rich in Tel Aviv invested in Sarona. Yes. >> Yes, no, so there are many victims who are truly miserable. >> Yes, there was recently, uh, I don’t want to go into the exact details, certainly not names, and I’m also not fully versed in the minute details, but there was now the Ethiopian scam, which hit the Haredi public the hardest. >> The Haredi public also got hit hard by Basadno. >> Also Basadno. >> Basadno is an acronym, you know that. >> Yes, "Bi-Siyata Di-Shmaya"(with the help of Heaven), always tell people it will succeed. >> Unequivocally, I tell people: Listen, you’re coming to a Torah lesson? No problem, with the help of Heaven, everything. But once you come to a business meeting or a deal and they hit you with "with the help of Heaven" and that—leave me alone, it’s all fine, "help of Heaven." So now we are talking business, don’t tell me stories. It’s very easy, you know, everything "with the help of Heaven," they brought kosher certifications and matters, and people fell for it. By the way, the Ethiopia story is a shocking story, because they created a mechanism. People, after all, don’t have money, they told them: There is an investment unit, half a million or a million shekels. Now, where will he bring it from? So they told him: You have an apartment. Now, what does it mean he has an apartment? An apartment that surely his parents helped him buy. Take a mortgage on the apartment for a million shekels, and we will pay the monthly payment. After all, he can’t pay it, he’s just a yeshiva student. And at the end of the period, you also got a monthly payment and 100%of the money you put in. Of course, neither the payment, nor the money, nor anything else, and the apartments— there, people start getting into foreclosures and paying more interest. >> Obviously, they also take the apartments, they can’t pay neither the mortgage they took nor the—they did like balloon loans, and in short, that’s the story. And also to the people, like, wow guys, a bit of common sense, this isn't about—you shouldn't be here, it’s not about some sophisticated event they managed to pull off, think a little. >> I saw at the right time that several leaders in the Haredi public issued a call and began to warn the public. >> Yes, they are warning, warning about agricultural land, warning about the capital market, what we talked about, that if it’s not sober, then be careful of manipulations and such things. We also mentioned Montenegro and countries abroad. I’ve done this, and I also talked about it in previous episodes, the topic of overseas investments. Fine, when you go and invest in...I don't know, Seychelles, or even if you invest, I’m saying, in the United States—sure, when you invest in countries—listen, you have language barriers, geographic barriers, legal barriers. Why get yourself into trouble? Who are you... >> I have two chapters on this in my book. One chapter is about someone who scammed, so he put in the contract that the jurisdiction would be in Seychelles —yeah, the people who bought, who invested there, don't even know where Seychelles is, yeah. >> So. >> But I have a chapter in the book about people who were scammed out of 6 million dollars in an investment in Vanuatu. Vanuatu—99%of people in the world don't even know such a country exists. What is it? >> It’s a small island after New Zealand . You go to Australia, Australia, New Zealand, left to Fiji, right to Vanuatu , that’s it. Most people don't even know it exists, yeah. So, the ones who invested 6 million dollars and were scammed, they finally came to their senses and sent someone there, and he arrived at the place, at this land. There were some chiefs there, cannibals , who almost ate him, yeah, because this land belongs to them, yes. He ran for his life from Vanuatu, but 6 million dollars were gone. The guy received nine months of prison time, the scammer, yes, in Israel. If it had been in the United States, 50 years. >> True, true, unequivocally. No, I'm telling you, even countries...take even normal countries, European countries or —are you really capable right now of approaching a country, Germany or London? Or can you not? Where do you need to turn to? Hire a local lawyer, pay the costs, which are...no, there are places where the costs are astronomical. These aren't the costs you have in Israel, because in Israel you know the language, you...and even here, how complicated is it to create? You know, I don't understand. Like, you ...no problem, you want to approach such investments—go ahead, but be with a lawyer, be with someone who understands what’s called overseas investments. Everything is fine, but to run... >> I have in my office maybe 10 cases of people, people who invested abroad and it collapsed—in England, in the United States, in Miami. It's very dangerous, very dangerous. Also, if you want to sue now, that's a problem. >> You need a group, to organize the people, it's dangerous, it's dangerous. >> What do you suggest now? Okay, a person , okay, he just heard us now, okay, so what should he do? He was already scammed, or just these days—what should he do? What are the steps you'd tell him? "Listen, do this now, act as fast as you can because then maybe you have a chance to save something." >> If a person has already been scammed, he needs to organize a whole group, because a person alone cannot handle all the expenses of lawyers, a private investigator, court fees, yes? So you need to organize as a group. How do you organize? Usually, usually it's easy to organize through social media. You can, for example, open a group on Facebook for victims of this and that. Yeah? Or on Twitter, or TikTok, or in... >> Yeah. People are afraid that in a group , that guy is smart enough and also has some money, so he sues them, harasses them, and so on. Meaning, there is... >> Look, the scammers compartmentalize. The scammers are always careful to keep the victims isolated. That is, if there are 100 victims, they make sure one doesn't know about the other. >> Right? >> So, you have to overcome this isolation , mainly through social media or word of mouth, but don't give up. I mean, don't give up on filing complaints with the police, filing a complaint with the Securities Authority, consulting with a lawyer, suing. Look, Mike Ben Ari, at the beginning, when this affair exploded and he was arrested, he tried with all his might to disrupt the organization of the victims. He took his people to disrupt the organization with all kinds of sophisticated messages and... >> If you pay someone, you see someone who is the leading factor, you calm them down, give them... >> He disrupted—he disrupted, he disrupted, because now, if they hadn't organized, the victims of Mike Ben Ari wouldn't have received anything. Because they organized and acted well and set up a victims 'association, they will receive over 100 million shekels. >> That's a lot, a lot of money, through six or seven years of grueling work, but they will receive it. >> Okay, so let's take a second, Ben, give us, as we said, some... >> We haven't talked about real estate theft yet. >> Well? >> That people need to know, our listeners need to know that there are real estate thefts in Israel; they steal land and they steal apartments. >> That is, there is land—you have to explain this—there is land registered , for example, in the Tabu [Land Registry], or in the name of... >> Or in your grandfather's name, or in Yossi's name. >> And someone comes, tricks with a forgery, presents himself as the owner, and simply sells it to you. >> Nice, how do they do that? A, they grab some homeless person or some tourist who has no money who arrived. There are forgery labs today; thank God, there is no shortage of forgery labs in Israel that can forge ID cards, forge passports. We had at our office, I have five cases of real estate theft where they forged a Belgian passport, forged a Russian passport, forged a passport —they even forge inheritance documents from Iran—yes, that's how they stole land from a Jew who immigrated from Iran. And they take that same homeless person to the lab, make him a new passport that he is the owner of the land, he is that same person registered as the land owner. And then they take him to a notary, and he comes before the notary and signs an irrevocable power of attorney on behalf of some broker, and that's it—and off you go, the deed is done, the story is over, but the broker... >> How do you—how is an ordinary person supposed to catch onto this, how are they supposed to notice it? >> There are—nice—there are two ways to defend against this. First of all, one way is you can order a service from the website that sends you an SMS the moment a transaction is made on your land. >> Okay? >> That's excellent. >> Ah, I see. >> With this service, you get an alert, and then you can turn straight to court to cancel it. And the second way is to register a small mortgage. To register a mortgage of 100,000 shekels. Yes. You go to your bank, you say give me 100,000 shekels to register a mortgage, a small mortgage, 100,000 shekels to bypass the bank to remove this mortgage . It's already a given. It’s an idea. You’re saying, yeah, they do this, they look for what's called a clean Tabu, that there’s no activity, it’s a quick transfer. Banks are on the way. >> They love the elderly, the lonely, the seniors, the Holocaust survivors, the children of Holocaust survivors; they love them. There are gangs, you have two places in the country that have land-theft gangs: one in Netanya and one in Nes Ziona. These are organized gangs; they scan the entire Land Registry, looking for, seeing which plot has had no activity for 50 years, no activity on this land, saying: "This one must be dead, this one must be gone , surely he has no heirs," even if he does have heirs, "Come on, let’s do it here, here." Anyway, I’ve said many times that people who are even entering a deal to buy an apartment shouldn't ask for, shouldn't accept a Tabu extract just by email. First of all, the first thing is you should pull it yourselves, meaning don’t rely on a lawyer sending you: "Here, I sent you the Tabu." Go pull it yourself, pay, I don’t know, 15 shekels, get a certified extract. You're saying even that isn't enough? If I order through them, do they reach such a level of forgery that even if I order from the Land Registry, I’ll see the scam or is it? >> You see, it’s enough. >> If they have a forged notarized power of attorney. >> Then he has already reached the Land Registry, he’s already there doing what he wants, he changed it. >> You need to talk to the person, to see the person in the eyes. >> I had a story, you’re reminding me of a story. Listen, how true it is. Years ago we went to purchase some land in the Jerusalem area. It was a "musha"[ shared] ownership with many, many Jordanian owners from the Jordanian rule, inheritance, and the whole story. There are many such lands, some "dead," and it was really a good deal and truly a bargain. And we went and checked, and as you say, notaries and approvals— and the Land Registry as well. And we also went to the Land Administration and checked the options, really listen, a project of, the project of a lifetime . For some reason, I don't know why, a day or two before we had to transfer some initial sum already, to, you know, the deposit, one says—we were three partners—he says to me: "Listen, something here doesn't smell right." He’s too hurried, and any sum we argue about, he lowers, meaning he's not just. On the other side, one tells me: "Leave it, here you have everything , we have this." And we asked some expert who understands the field of, specifically, this complex field of shared lands, and everything, it didn't add up. That which, I don't know, there is what I. Suddenly I realize that the same notary appearing is a guy in Haifa . I said: What could happen in Haifa? How much is it? We’re not in America. Let’s get in the car, we have to transfer money tomorrow, let’s drive, go to a notary, and ask him, tell me sir. >> Is it yours or not, simple question. Now we're driving, understand, 80%is okay but 20%, I told him, something here, as they say, doesn't smell right to me. Speaking of intuition, I always tell people, if you have a gut feeling, even if you can't explain it. Something doesn't smell right, I don't feel good about it, the whole thing. Don’t underestimate that. Don’t underestimate it. Go sleep on it at home. Sit on it another night, call a lawyer, call them, check some more. We drove there to Haifa, arrived, knocked on the door. There was a Jewish guy there, I think close to 80. >> A notary. >> A notary. A notary. It was all written on the door. A notary. It was also like some office in an apartment building. You know the kind where you go down half a floor? >> Actually, they stole his stamp, that's what it was, the stamp. Go in. Yes, go in to him. We say hello to him, sir, do you have a few minutes of your time, if you want we can pay for it so we don't bother you, please tell me, is this yours? He looks and says, I didn't sign this, I don't know what this is, they just scammed me, they stole the whole post. >> I had a similar thing in Jerusalem where they stole and forged a lawyer's stamp. >> Listen, this is an event. Now understand, you are a step away from, you know, closing a deal, a million-dollar deal, it could also be ...guys, do this action, you know, sometimes. >> Listen, two years ago, in a similar case, I’ll tell you, a client of mine calls me, a very wealthy Jewish man, says, listen Eitan, they are offering me land in Herzliya Pituach. And at a cheap price, and I asked how much do you want? So the one who offered him the land said, listen, you take an appraiser, any appraiser you want, whatever your appraiser says, you pay half. I told him, my friend, this is stolen land. >> They are offering you stolen land. He says to me, what are you saying, Eitan? I told him, listen, it’s stolen land, understand, whoever is offering it to you, you pay whatever you want. >> You say yes. >> You say how much to pay, it’s stolen land. And it really was stolen, of course I talked him out of it. >> Yes, that’s what I’m saying. So guys, no need to...sometimes we get tempted by some flashy deals and hurry, and I want to say, guys: there are no shortcuts, there is no fast profit. Do it step by step and don't be ashamed to consult. Also, you know, there are many times...you know people get scammed, they pull a fast one on me, they feel ashamed, ashamed to reach out, what, they scammed me? Yes. Everyone, all of us. About five years ago someone called me, wanted to consult regarding some purchase group (I can't tell you the name). And on the phone I already said: Look, it’s complicated. There is a mortgage here and a mortgage there, and a lien, and it’s very complicated. But come here to the office for a consultation. How much is the consultation? I said, let’s do a meeting for 1,200 shekels plus VAT. She said, that’s too expensive for me. I said, nothing will happen, thank you. After half a year minus a few months, that thing collapsed and they lost almost all the money. Yes. In other words, she saved money on the consultation. Yes. >> What is that? Just like when you go to a doctor. Come on, there's nothing to be done. You must not move without consulting, whether it's real estate with a lawyer, or the capital market with a banker, or anything else—we won't skip this, we won't skip this, because those scammers are truly waiting in the corner, waiting for their prey, and they know the job, and they also spot the—I heard you once say that you provided signs for them, really. >> There are signs. >> You gave actual physical signs. >> For the new person, he covers everything, yes, real signs. Not just what we said: eye checks, scratching the head, a damp hand, a limp handshake ? Name-dropping is the most dangerous, it's the use of names. Yes, a person comes to you: I'm friends with this minister, I'm friends with the defense minister, I'm friends with the mayor, I'm friends with the prime minister, I'm friends with the president, the president is my friend, and I'm friends with Trump, I go into the White House —he throws names, I mean, he throws names, names, names. Which is the most dangerous. Be very careful of name-dropping, of throwing names around . There are other signs: whoever immediately bonds with you, whoever offers you high interest—fixed interest—that is, that is the most proven sign. >> Yes. >> That same Eran Mizrahi we talked about —he scammed his own first cousins, close relatives. He promised people 4%a month, 4%a month, and he had a printer downstairs at home and he would issue people a fake certificate from a... Swiss bank, some bank in Geneva, Switzerland, people would give him a million shekels, let's say, so he would issue them: after a month you have 1,040,000, you earned 4%. He would print the certificate at his home. Listen, you have to be, in my opinion, a type of psychopath. I mean, a person who does, I once asked, I interviewed here in one of the episodes, some guy who, when he was scamming, was addicted to gambling, he scammed and scammed, he went through a huge rehabilitation, really, when he came back to the fold, in any case he is trying very hard to come back, and I asked him, tell me, when you go to sleep at night? Okay, you did what you did, do you sleep at night, I mean, do you sleep well, knowing, an elderly woman of 80, you took all her pension, all her savings, her medication money, it doesn't interest you, he says, it... >> A psychopath, you're right. Look, I have a chapter in my book written for me by a doctor, a doctor named Yehoshua Weiss wrote me a chapter in the book. >> About the psychopathic characteristics of scammers. A psychopath has all sorts of scientific, medical characteristics. Yes. The two most prominent characteristics of a psychopath are indifference to the suffering of others . >> Exactly. >> And not taking responsibility. A psychopath is never responsible, he is never responsible. >> You didn't pay me, you're the one to blame. >> You see, shifting responsibility and indifference to the suffering of others are two elements of a psychopath, my friend. There is also narcissism, irritability, impulsiveness; there are more elements of a psychopath, but when a psychopath stings, he doesn't care, he doesn't care about the victim. >> So, it's unbelievable, no. So I'm saying, today really, to the listening audience as well, you've truly received the authority in this field here. Guys, today everything is open, information is quite transparent, everything is on the table. It's not complicated today to schedule a meeting, make a phone call, or check things out. It's not... we're not in, you know, the pre-internet age, it's possible to do this. Eitan, thank you very much. >> Thank you very much to you. >> It was very useful. >> I really enjoyed talking to you as well . It was great, and may it be of benefit to everyone, and thank you to you. >> You're most welcome. >> You've been listening to Business in Motion from Mishpacha Podcasts. I am Yossi Peli. Thanks to content editor Tehila Siton, production manager Ayala Goldstein, and sound and video editors Avri Wizel, Daniel Levin, and Ayala Yellin. All series and episodes are waiting for you on the Mishpacha website, on all podcast apps, and on the phone line 077-2200. Extension 66. See you in the next episodes.