על הפרק - פרק 2: הקו האדום: אברהם פריינד מארח את ח"כ יצחק פינדרוס

On the agenda, conversations on the day's topics Chapter, The Red Line >> You murdered and also inherited >> Avraham Freund hosts Knesset Member Rabbi Yitzhak Pindrus Okay, so we are now less than two weeks before the election. We now say hello to Knesset Member Yitzhak Pindrus from Degel HaTorah. Hello. >> Hello and greetings. >> So, let's start with the campaign and start with the upcoming event. We are coming in two weeks. I see the campaign . They are talking mainly about the right to be Haredi, and all this is happening while...In the background is the draft crisis with all the decrees that have landed here on the Haredi public. What is the horizon you see now when a young Haredi man comes and asks you, "Am I now a criminal?""I'm a fugitive, I'm afraid of the police on the street, I can't fly, I'm not eligible for many benefits in this country." How are you solving this for him now, and what is the outlook on this matter? >> I must tell you that you surprised me. You asked, uh, basically two questions where one answers the other, and you know, I'm not used to that; I'm not used to the answer being inside the question, especially when you ask two questions. >> You're saying I'm redundant here. >> And I say, no, no, I'm saying that I think you sharpened it very, very well. The basis upon which the Haredi parties were founded, from 198 and even before, the World Agudath Israel and even before that the Haredi communities, is really, truly to give an option and a horizon for a person to live as a Haredi in a community, in this way of life, and to be protected from all the pitfalls of the time and the environment. Now, this wasn't taken for granted, but in the last few generations, the last few years, it seemed like a given. Following the political systems, the Haredi parties, and the entire leadership of the Haredi public, it became something trivial and natural. And the debate was, you know, rightfully so, a kindergarten here, a kindergarten there, a school here, a class here, a class there, but it was all trivial. But, you know, it reminds me, they spoke to me about the issue of sanctions. When I was a young man, it was clear that someone who is a yeshiva student cannot fly abroad, it was part of the DNA. And what happened in recent years, partly because of this thing, is that it's no longer something taken for granted. But not only is it not taken for granted, I tell you, in...I envy this generation; this is a generation that is going through a trial and difficulty. The young people today are going through difficulties that none of us experienced. Meaning, we grew up into a natural system, into an existing system, into a system whose foundation was already there, the Chazon Ish, the foundation of Israel. Truly, the great leaders of Israel at the establishment of the state. And a large part of the things throughout the years. I say every term they added something else, added another layer. And we reached a breaking point. We reached a breaking point against those who established the State of Israel. Their descendants. Ideological descendants, physical descendants, it doesn't really matter, but they established the State of Israel and felt at the beginning of the term, because of what they call a " full-on" government, because of a government that had very many traditional, religious, and Haredi people and that was the basis of the government—there was also no counter-measure. And then they felt that their state and their home were essentially being taken away, and they went out to struggle, and the struggle had two phases of course: the phase that was until Simchat Torah, which was about the issue of the judicial reform, and the second phase, following the war , was more about the Haredi public. And it's true, we are going through a trial . Are you asking me? I envy this generation; it’s just a crazy generation, none of us experienced this . Meaning, it would have been the easiest thing to be, the most trivial, and this war exists, and precisely because this war exists and this war is ...what do you call it? So that is what the election is about. The point of the election is to say: yes, yes, don't try to clone us, don't try to change us, don't try to diminish us, don't try to do anything to us, because we exist, we exist. But still, bar... >> A sentence Rabbi Ravitz used to say, the origin is Rabbi Ravitz who said it at the founding of Degel HaTorah when the Lithuanians wanted to establish a party alone, he said "we exist, yes, we exist," so I say today, Haredim, "we exist, yes, we exist," and we will continue to exist. >> That is on a conceptual level, what you just explained. >> It is not conceptual, how we reached this situation. I will clarify it again : we reached the situation we are in today because of the success of the Haredi leadership, and I don't say " Haredi parties" on purpose. The Haredi leadership, the leadership that I said started with the Chazon Ish and the Agudath Israel, continued with all the other Admorim and Rabbis, then continued with Rabbi Yehezkel Abramsky, continued with Rabbi Shach (speaking from a Lithuanian perspective), the Hasidic Admorim, of course the Lev Simcha, yes, the Admor of Vizhnitz... the message was very, very clear, and we knew all the time that everything they could do so that we wouldn't be able to remain Haredi, they would do, only it was under the rug, they didn't say it in a clear and blunt way. Today we have reached a situation, because of this success, that they are saying it in a blunt way. That's what I say to a young Haredi person: I don't understand , if someone stands at your border to drive you out of your house, what do you do? Do you say, "Listen, since he will manage to break through the sidewalk, I might as well open the gate for him and say, 'come on in'?" I certainly wouldn't do that. I will fight and tell him: Sir, you are not coming in here. And that is exactly what we are doing now. I agree, their pressure and their hysteria is something...it is something heavenly, uniquely heavenly. You know, I, I was the chairman of the United Torah Judaism faction in the summer of '23. And there was, an deliberation in the action, whether to finalize the draft law before the summer session or not to finalize the draft law before the summer session. I can tell you quite openly, okay, if it were up to the faction, if the faction had to decide, the faction would have unequivocally said to finish it before the summer session. There was a decision that involved all of the Gedolei Yisrael, okay? From all parts of the United Torah Judaism faction, and anyone today blaming one side or another, I suggest they keep the names to themselves, Yaakov, everyone, I tell you everyone, and the decision was made by the Gedolei Yisrael that it would come up immediately at the start of the winter session which was supposed to open, if my memory serves me correctly, on October 15th. And it was agreed between me—as the faction chairman, I was sent by the faction following the decision of the Gedolei Yisrael—I was sent to finalize the exact date for the publication of the text of the government bill. A government bill, which by the way was the focus of many of the discussions we know because that was actually the issue, a government bill, whose text would be published on the tenth of October. I still remember my argument with Yossi Fuchs, the Cabinet Secretary; I demanded he publish it on the first of October, he told me it's the holidays, it’s not good for headlines, it could hurt me, and I told him that, and the argument between us remained. He said the tenth of October, and the tenth of October brings us to the 25th of October, which could reach the Knesset plenum. Since neither the Shin Bet, nor the Mossad, nor the IDF knew that a war was about to break out, then we didn't know either, and of course, this matter was not before the Gedolei Yisrael. Is that significant? I cannot define it as anything other than a heavenly matter, that was a fact, I. >> Okay, you still had a few years. Tell everyone that during a war, when 300,000 people are in the reserves day and night, only a blind person or someone living in a movie would say it was possible to pass the law; there was the Yuli Edelstein affair. >> There was, there was the Yuli Edelstein affair that we all know. >> Including the attack on Iran that was before the Gedolei Yisrael on that day. Come on, you have to understand, we are ...we are in an ongoing event. That is people's mistake. I agree that in terms of results, people have a problem, but we are in an ongoing event, a very, very long one, of 80 years. Do we have the right to? This life has many meanings; yes, private education, a functioning yeshiva world, a functioning system. There are economic costs to this, social costs, there are costs—you can't run away from it, being Haredi has a price. But the whole of us and this thing, but in the end, as I say, it succeeded. Let's put that in there too, it succeeded. But Even when I say it succeeded, as I say, there are things that need to be fixed and always need to be fixed, and every Rosh Yeshiva and every Admor is trying to fix things in their community. But as a collective, this system... eventually we went through the Yuli Edelstein affair, we went through the ...the legal counsel to the government not giving, we went through the reserves, we went through Gallant, we went through all that and reached where we reached. Therefore it’s clear, and we have also stated this, that it’s clear to everyone that the day after the elections there is no way for us— there won’t even be a discussion—we are not entering any government without this issue being settled. >> You said that last time as well, and even before that, yes, yes, even before . I will, I will tell you the difference, I will tell you the difference and it’s not quite consistent, shall I wink? The last time we wanted to pass a law, and that’s true, we joined the government. I remind you, the government was sworn in in January, the government was sworn in in January, okay. A law takes a few months, certainly when the legal counsel to the government isn’t cooperating. No one expected the hostility of a legal adviser and the Supreme Court that doesn’t care about the law. No one expected that mutual [ hostility]. You’re asking me in hindsight, was Levin right in his declarations that this caused this situation? Hindsight is 20/20. Were we all excited that we were going to dismantle the Supreme Court? Of course we were excited. In hindsight, was that the right thing? By the way, the Torah giants didn't like it back then, and many people on the street shouted at us : What, don't you understand that the High Court is the problem? Of. This frontal war against people, as I said, who founded the state and feel like the state is slipping away from them, brought about the Kaplan protests, brought about the whole situation that occurred, and ultimately led to where it led. So in that situation, but that is hindsight. And to this day we, and then we entered the government, and as I said, the only discussion in the summer was: what do we do in a situation where the legal counsel to the government opposes it? How do we deal with this thing? That was the existing political situation, you have to do the maximum in that same situation. There are also higher powers above us, aren't there? There are, there are only higher powers, so who is to blame? Give me names, yes, who is to blame in this story that today there are yeshiva students whose status is not regulated, what, what is happening, who is to blame, who? >> I can't, I can't say it's down to any one specific person. >> Legal adviser, Netanyahu, tz... >> It’s clear it’s all of the above, I said, the outbreak of the war had, it had significance, the judicial reform had significance. The...uh...the lack of, Yuli Edelstein who in some place deceived us, okay, on a personal level I felt and I will say that I was truly, I felt betrayed. Uh, Edelstein...uh... Gallant is also a very painful story, very strange, strange too, not just painful, it’s strange; you see that he isn't there at all, it’s not relevant, after all those who dealt with this matter. >> It reminds me of what Gafni said, he would always say: Rabbi Gafni would always say that the Haredim are like an aircraft carrier. It's easy to attack them, but for those targeting them—at the end of the day, this whole group is currently essential to Israeli politics . But hear me out, we ultimately reached a situation where I tell you: these are forces beyond your control; you cannot act beyond your strength. You know one thing. That we established this as a clear fact: because of the situation we are in, clearly we will need divine help for this to work, but we are not joining any government without this. >> And I say again, you said this last time too, and it was written in the coalition agreements, you were committed that this would be the first thing to pass, and in the end it was stalled because of the judicial reform and then I... >> They inserted a clause about the " override" just to be precise—I don't want to be imprecise—into the coalition agreement, and we said it in the last election campaign as well, we said two things. >> We said "override clause" and "draft law." Yariv Levin, rightfully in his view, and Simcha Rothman, they said, " Guys, we'll do an override clause and it will solve the draft law for you." Now, I want one listener, okay, one political figure who could have predicted what happened on Galant Night , who could have guessed it in advance, who could have guessed—I remind you and the viewers, everyone listening to us—they were in shock that the Kaplan protest succeeded. They were shocked by themselves; they woke up and were happy that suddenly such a protest succeeded. I mean, who is the person who could have come and told you in January '23: "Listen, there is going to be a protest where, when Galant is going to be fired , half the State of Israel goes out to the roads and the country burns?" I still remember, I actually chaired that same discussion that night to finish the reform bill. I chaired a session of , I think, 14-15 hours, if I’m precise, and we finished the votes at 6:00 in the morning. It was that famous night and the whole country was in turmoil; we heard the noises outside every now and then when I went out for a break. No one dreamed that at 6:00 AM , when I finished, the government would announce it wasn't bringing it for a second and third reading. I was ready; at six I held a vote in the committee and I was ready for it, and we said we're dropping this whole story. No one could have grasped this situation. Now, it's clear that if we were there we would have had insane levels of resistance to this, meaning if someone came and said, "Guys, I understood in advance that this was going to happen." I'm not saying, the Kaplan people told us all the time "we will succeed," but come on, that's the other side, "we will succeed and we will do it to you." And the most...the part that is most, if we had known, if not, then we would do it immediately at the start of the winter. This result of the start of the war, which is not written—even someone who doesn't see the hand of God in this, it's unfortunate. >> Today, do you think today that a draft law can pass before dealing with the judicial system? Can this issue be resolved? >> I think yes, I think there are formulas , not just formulas, formulas we would want, formulas for in retrospect, as the Torah giants say, formulas that will need to pass the Torah giants, but I think yes, I think it is possible to pass a law, not a law, a law that is okay. What does "okay" mean? "Okay" for me, and that is the red line for me, is that a boy who wants to go to yeshiva can go to yeshiva without being worried that he is going to be drafted or some kind of thing like that. You will have to include all sorts of clauses in it that we won't like, but... >> You presented a draft law in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, that in the end—like, at the end of five years—we reach 50%of...Of the Haredi sector, like what? Every year. And you added sanctions there and everything, and it still didn't pass the legal counsel, not the committee's, not the Knesset's, and certainly not the government's, who said there was a problem with the whole thing. I will tell you...this, I will give you three answers to this, okay? First, I don't think it would be right now, and certainly not before knowing who the Knesset is, to enter into the details of the law. I suggest: let people sit on this well, all the Torah giants, in order to decide on the future. >> Yes, I don't, it's not really like that . It's clear what the significance is when it's the government's legal counsel, what the significance is when it's the committee's legal counsel. It's clear there's a discussion, are we going to solve the problem when boys are arrested? Clearly. Also, what is the meaning—what do the numbers mean in the end? As you say, I think we need to understand better what the implications are, and who is included in the Haredi sector. It has many implications, and therefore, certainly not to conduct this negotiation on a podcast. You know that we keep it quiet ; not on a podcast and not in interviews either. These are sensitive issues that really need to be handled with common sense and without bombastic declarations. >> And in any case, can you tell the young Haredi man, "In another year you will have a solution, in two years there won't be one"? Arik, can you give such a promise? Can you guys give such a promise when they come to you? >> You know that it was said, he was rebuked for it, but when Jacob our father said to Rachel, "Am I in the place of God, who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?" He was rebuked because one doesn't say that to...all of this is written in the Midrash about it. I can tell you that we are going to do all the necessary efforts. Yes. I can tell you that despair is not a work plan and not an action plan. And I can tell you one thing that is above everything: it is clear that we will need Divine assistance, and we will need a lot of Divine assistance. And it may be that this trial we have been through lately, the public...the trial not that we as representatives of the public went through. Okay? My children, and the children of my brothers and sisters and brothers-in-law, and this difficult trial that no generation has gone through, and this hardship, there is no doubt, we come to the Holy One, Blessed be He, and say to Him: We want Divine assistance. Everything I told you could come to pass. I can commit to you that there won’t be a new Yuli Edelstein, a new Gallant, a new legal advisor, and other things that I think could happen. It is clear that we are going to do this alone, it is our top priority, and we have clearly learned from many things up until now. >> Okay, uh, let’s talk a little bit about, uh...The changing of generations in the party, in Degel HaTorah. Do you think Gafni and Maklev paid a price over this whole conscription law story? Some erosion in their status, especially Maklev? I don’t think so, because at the end of the day, the decisions on the conscription law were made by the Gedolei Yisrael and not the MKs. That is a thing, because as I said before, I cannot say, and Maran Rabbi Landau wrote it—he wrote that he has no complaints about the actions taken. I don’t think, uh, I think that at the end of the day, in every system, there is, uh, a certain time for changes that arrives; it’s a trivial thing. To be surprised by that? A Haredi party that is owned by the Gedolei Yisrael. Every Knesset member, you know, I always tell people that I have to answer to the Gedolei Yisrael, and they think I’m joking with them, but I’m not. But, uh, I tell them: Guys, I can wake up in the morning, if I don't do what they want, they will send me home. Here they did what they wanted, but they were also told: Gentlemen, it’s over. I think they did amazing work. I think Rabbi Gafni and Rabbi Maklev did amazing work, they did a good job. No one is undermining their work for a moment, but there is a natural system; there is a younger system today of people that the Gedolei Yisrael wanted to enter the system. Uh, it is, it is their right. Nobody thinks that when someone loses a primary they were ousted, and nobody thinks when there is a party chairman who is a centralist, uh, removes someone, that it is an ousting. Therefore I don’t, I don't even understand this word at all, "ousting." No one was ousted, it’s a natural thing. This happened to me too in the past: I was in the Jerusalem Municipality, I got a phone call: "Sir, from today you are in rotation, there is someone else who is the deputy mayor today." This happened to me 13 years ago, nothing happened, I didn’t come with any complaints to anyone. That’s the position; you receive the position, you are elected for a term, and at the end of the term they tell you if you continue or don’t continue, it’s a completely natural thing. Are you saying that it could be that in the next term, let's say, uh, they will say that to you too? True, I could have not been here this time too; I took that into account. >> Uh, and let’s talk about the day after the elections, there was the well-known letter from Rabbi Landau that you are no longer in the right-wing bloc. You are building, you are constantly presenting some new bloc of yours, the Torah scholars 'bloc. Maybe get him to sign some sort of loyalty letter to Netanyahu or something? Maybe get him to sign it. >> Look. >> Regarding this bloc. There is something , and I can testify today that Rabbi Gafni really doesn't like it, even at the critical moment, but there were all kinds of other reasons for it. There is something that became a situation where we were dragged into a discourse that the State of Israel entered in the last decade-plus of Netanyahu: yes Netanyahu , no, yes Netanyahu, no Netanyahu. And we were dragged in and in some place we were subservient to them, and it could be that this also caused people not to be pressured enough to finish things that weren't important to us. So today we are saying something very simple. We have something that is the most important thing to us, regarding which everything will stand or fall. That is the issue. We don't have other issues. We don't have other things at the moment. I know, it's clear we have many more issues. We are handling many issues. I think that as a parliamentary correspondent, you know we handle endless inquiries and endless things and endless systems. But this is the thing that, as far as we are concerned, we have put at the top of our agenda. This is the first thing right now as far as we are concerned, and upon this a government will stand or fall. Now, okay, let's talk about the day after the elections. Look, you say you won't support any government that won't pass the conscription bill, let's assume, but a situation will arise where...... that they can form a government, it's either elections or let's say Eisenkot forms a government with the support of Arab parties, and you are the ones who need to, let's say, abstain in such a vote, you are, meaning to let the other side... >> Maybe I wasn't clear in my answer before, I will say it very clearly: there is a very, very, very clear issue . We don't care if there will be elections. >> We don't care if there will be guarding , we don't care if there will be all sorts of nice things. We say something very simple: what is going to help this reality so that the yeshiva world can continue to exist, so that a student from Ponevezh or Gur or Belz can go out into the street without fearing that a policeman will arrest him—that, for us, is the first issue that needs to be solved. If you think—I don't think so , but I don't think such a situation where Eisenkot, together with Gila Gamliel or Stern, are going to solve this thing. You know what? Maybe they will repent. We are, you know, being dragged from it, being dragged and called. >> I saw that Rabbi Hirsch said on Sukkot that every effort must be made so that Yesh Atid does not rise, ideologically. As an ideology. Obviously. We are talking about people who are fighting against God and His Torah, primarily in the yeshiva world, in the world of education, in the world of...our world of values. They are people who are fighting, we need to ensure they don't have power. Now you're asking? That's why we are not in the bloc. There is, there is a difference, there is a difference in the loyalty letter. Like you said before, when we are in the bloc, we say very clearly what we want. You are asking if there is such a situation? >> Do you have a candidate for prime minister? The answer is yours more than mine as a political commentator, and you see...I don't see in my eyes...this is our candidate, this is a solution, once again, we are not being dragged into a crazy discourse. >> No, but this discourse... >> In the last lockdown, and I’m telling you again, I remember Rabbi Gafni in 2020. Committees didn't know about this wording because I didn't understand what this thing was, since when? >> A letter of loyalty, fine. But let’s say we arrive the day after the elections with 63 mandates, including the Haredi parties. Aryeh Deri says my candidate for Prime Minister in such a case is, uh, Bennett. >> I, my candidate is Bennett. Exempt, not exempt, deferred for anyone whose Torah is their craft and sits and studies. And you know, there is a mistake for listeners: 45 hours, weeks to choose, 40 hours for a yeshiva student and sits and studies—that’s the candidate. Don’t blame anyone. On a practical level, I’m speaking now: there will be 63 Knesset members, that’s the issue that will face whoever takes this topic, and we’ll see what advances it and what doesn't. Very clear. If you think Gilad Kariv is going to advance it, then it may be that we are all going to Gilad Kariv. >> No, but look, this is a bit of an evasion, and I’ll say—no, I’ll say why. I’ll say why, you want a draft law before forming a government, right? No, no, that won't happen. >> A draft law before forming a government won't happen. >> Yes, uh, that is a mistake of the viewers. >> Knesset members, and Aryeh Deri says this. >> Listen, listen, listen, let’s get organized. A law takes time, it’s a legislative process. You need a government decision, you need a government to be established, you need to bring it to a first reading. >> You need discussions in the Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, which takes its time, and you need discussions in—what do you call it? This is what we are saying: we are not joining, I want to say, we are not joining any government. >> Not joining any government and also not supporting any government. Supporting a government? That means it passes laws, does as it pleases, and conducts policy . It turns out that there is a step... I’ll say it again, I don’t know what the election results will be, but there is a step where, in the election results, to advance such a law, we will need to let the government form, and for something like that, we will need to vote for someone specific. It could very well be yes or no. Forget Netanyahu, I don’t know. A candidate will come, and we will see clearly that it is going [well]—how to advance it? So we won’t join the government, we will let him form a government, we will let him form a government and do everything he needs to do in order to ... >> That means that if right now Netanyahu, on the night of the elections, comes and tells you... >> Who told you Netanyahu is the candidate ? Both candidates—it’s written, also a candidate. >> Maybe it was Bennett. >> I don’t know, I heard someone tell me that there is one Bennett, he was once Prime Minister, also a candidate. Someone told me that there is some— maybe it was Bennett, I don’t know. >> It could be that you will go with Bennett. >> We are not going with anyone. We are going with a very clear thing: we don’t want, no... >> I don’t need to understand why this is. It’s a very, very clear message. We are not into this, we are not into the...wait, no, I’ll tell you why I’m pushing—no, wait, wait, wait. >> A situation could arise where they come to the President; the right-wing bloc has 63 Knesset members, let’s say, the right-wing bloc including the Haredi parties. Opposite them, the left-wing bloc will have 57 seats. Now, you subtract the seven seats of United Torah Judaism—it will be 54 seats against 57 seats. Meaning, a situation could be created. So that is exactly what I want to explain: that they will reach the President and there will be more recommenders for Eizenkot’s side , let’s say, and the President will task him with forming the government. >> And Eizenkot and Gilad Kariv and Elazar Stern want to solve the enlistment problem. >> No. >> No, they want to solve it. >> I’m just saying. >> They are going to solve it. >> No, he will also probably, at the end of this process, also probably not succeed in forming a government because he won’t have a majority. The question is, if there is a right-wing bloc, are you going to recommend Netanyahu for Prime Minister or not? >> We...I asked you, not whether Netanyahu should worry. I answered, I don’t... >> He needs to know one very clear thing: he, and Eizenkot, and Gilad, Kariv, and Elazar Stern, and Bennett, and Lieberman, and Golan, and Smotrich, and I don’t know, sorry to whoever I forgot—we will do everything for the right to be Haredi, which is first of all being able to study in Yeshiva without being...without fear of arrest. What is the political technique? As you know, it depends on so many variables and factors that we don’t know how they will end on election night. They will end, but you’re right: you quoted Rabbi Yossef. It’s clear that promoting a government of Kariv and his friends, and Elazar Stern and his friends or Kinley and his friends is not going to promote that, so it’s clear that we won’t promote that. That’s clear to you, too, that’s clear to any sensible person. But from that to a...a...we said a bloc of loyalty, the distance is great. But I said, the Rabbi there, you quoted the Chief Rabbi, and he said it in the clearest way, but it doesn't need to be said. I think every sensible person understands that. >> Look, I saw a few days ago, also at one of the Sukkot events, the designated Knesset member from Bezalel’s [party] stood with Stark, and he asked to apologize to the Torah students for the situation we’ve reached—as if for the fact that they don’t have an exemption, that they don’t have a deferral. Do you also want to apologize ? Do you also think the apology is in place? Is there something to apologize for? >> I said, clearly we didn’t have the Divine assistance and the merit to finish this thing. >> The merit to apologize exists before this thing, before the boy, there is no doubt. I apologize every morning when I get up, for the fact that I want to succeed more in my job, and this is the first thing I am supposed to succeed in . So you apologize to the Yeshiva students for their situation? >> I said, I envy them. I envy them for the trial they are going through and the hardship they are going through, and there is no doubt they deserve more , and we will have to do more. >> Let’s talk about your goal in the upcoming elections. Uh. It’s a bit hard to talk about seven, eight seats, nine seats, because we don’t know what the voter turnout will be, but numerically, a number. >> We are racing to reach 320,000 votes, that’s the number we—we estimate we have another 40,000 voters aged 18 to 22. >> Leitner, is that something that worries you? >> No, no, I think you...there were people who felt uncomfortable with the self-sacrifice required to be Haredi, the price one has to pay, the difficulty one has to face. There is a difficulty, I hear you, I don't know it that well, but I hear it concerns them —the price, the difficulty, the need to be more a part of Israeli society. >> Maybe they want, for example, for everyone to be like us, against us. We need education, on which the Haredi public is built and has reached where it is today: to be 20,000 citizens in the State of Israel in 1948 and to be 1.4, 1.3 million in '26. Thanks to the private education system. It was in the negotiations between Rav Kotler and Golda Myerson (later Golda Meir). Before the Balfour Declaration—no, sorry, before the UN debate on November 29 th—it was the discussion on having independent education. That is the thing we put at the top of our priorities, two things: Yeshiva students and independent education. And therefore, to maintain Haredi education , to maintain a Haredi public, you need independent education. There are prices for this, there are prices. We go through High Court rulings, we go through budget cuts, we go through government legal directives, we go through disagreement—a new, how do you call it, disagreement—and they lie and say it's because of core curriculum studies, when it's a system that studies 100%core curriculum. We are going through a struggle; for us, this is the most critical thing. Now, I'm not saying that if there were Haredi groups back then that joined state education at the founding of the state—that’s not something new, okay? Klausenburg, the Way of the Righteous, Nevuchei Sifrei Chaim, they all held differently, and the Lubavitcher Rebbe held differently than everyone else. At the end of the day, even Klausenburg today understood and entered into Haredi education, into independent education. But also, a large part of Habad opened "recognized but unofficial" schools—some, I’m not saying all. By the way, the National Religious public that went to state education is also, in large part, moving today to "recognized but unofficial" status, and that is the distress that Avi Maoz talks about all the time, and rightly so. I am quite aware of this and I recognize it and try hard to help them. I, too, and Rabbi Gafni tried hard to help them, their institutions. That is our banner and our central issue. Now, I understand that there are people who have difficulty with this; I have nothing to answer them. >> Leitner says, "I am angry at the Haredi Members of Knesset who don't know how to say:' whoever doesn't study, should enlist. '" >> If they had said such a thing... >> There is also, there is. Even then, I say they have: they have a misunderstanding of the struggle. I tell you that nothing of the struggle I spoke about, of being Haredi in the Land of Israel, would have changed. Even if 100%—not 50, not 20%, not under a sponsorship—if 100%of the Haredim actually enlisted, it wouldn't change a thing in the discourse. And you want that? I will give you an equivalent to this: they study 100%core curriculum in the Independent Education system. Does anyone take that into account? That it’s not true. >> 95%. You, do you have daughters? Go check, alright? The girls all study, and the boys too, in the classrooms everyone is studying. There is a portion: they found out of 235 institutions, for the sake of argument (I don't remember the exact number), they found 16 institutions that don't study [core], 22 institutions that don't...really, you know, I’m willing to get into it, but the state education system always has enough institutions where that exists too, it's not that they couldn't find teachers, we know these stories. It’s not slightly inaccurate factually; every Haredi child knows this, yes, that in the Independent Education system, in its vast majority—fine, in its vast majority, when I say vast majority that is 95%, over 90%. And we asked for " Ofek Chadash," by the way, only for them. We said it in discussions with the Treasury, we told them, we said: we are only talking about those who study 100%core curriculum, okay? That would be a prerequisite in practice, 100%core is the condition. The Treasury said no. Which means that even if 100%of Haredim would go...therefore they...they simply have a misconception, I understand them , they are not aware of it, but most Haredim are indeed aware of it. I suggest this is the fact, therefore he is mistaken. >> Did you try to grasp the...the, his voters, not him, not him as a persona but the idea, the... >> The idea, the idea for us is an optical illusion. They want us to be Israeli. We know that if we are Israeli, we won't be Haredi. >> So you are not Israeli? >> We are Haredi. We live in the State of Israel, pay taxes in the State of Israel, try to follow the law unless the law prevents us from sitting and studying Torah, but we do try to follow the law. >> So you don't follow the law, then one must ask, you know, it’s published how many...I don't remember the number anymore, but I say, ultimately, there is...by the way, this thing too, do you know a country that wakes up one morning and takes a large public in its citizenry and puts it outside the law without a process? There is no such animal, they’ll just say... >> Also as a country by its own rules, but forget it, I won't get into that. But I say: in the end, ultimately, there is a system here that it’s true has its costs, and we are not willing to pay these costs. That is our position. To us, and we say to every one of them: do you want a world of Torah? Do you want a world of education? Do you want a world of Yeshivot? This is the only way , there is no other way. >> I’ll step back for a moment, what will the Knesset look like without Gafni? >> It’s hard to learn with that. I...one of the things I told Rabbi Gafni, both during and after, was that I truly, truly hope—and I believe it will happen—that he will reach the Yeshiva , and I am going, God willing. I hope he can handle it, but I think it would be right to consult with him. His public and professional experience is invaluable, and you know him—he is one of the smartest people in this building, who truly understands how processes work and what they entail. And more things will be published, including his position on the conscription law at various stages, which, had they listened to him, we would be in a different situation today . Again, ultimately, it is divine providence, it is also from heaven, but I am saying that...ultimately. >> I hope he arrives and stays involved in the activities, because for me personally, it is clear that there will be a void. >> I don't think it's a secret. >> Uh. >> And I don't think it's a secret that for me personally, there will be a void . >> He has accompanied me in the Knesset for the last five years, I learned under his tutelage, we were together on the Finance Committee. >> We were together in many things. >> He performed this role. >> And also in. As I told you before, there are no roles at the moment. >> No, okay, we are talking about the day after. >> Talking about the fact that there is a change in the position of Degel HaTorah and they will take...first of all, let's finish the conscription law, we will talk about roles later. >> And it may be that there is an ideological shift regarding this story of ministers in Degel HaTorah. >> That is not within my authority or my jurisdiction; I can tell you one thing on a personal level: I am not planning to leave the Knesset under any circumstances. >> A committee interests you more? >> I am interested in staying in the Knesset at all costs. >> And well. In the previous Knesset. >> But that is a personal matter, no? >> Yes, yes, okay, you are saying it belongs to the Torah leaders, like the. >> No, no, it's not about that; this is an ideological question. Look, we need to understand, you know, it also touches on the previous question of how the education system, the yeshiva system, and the system work—how the law passes and how everything is connected. We have a complex system here. We are Israelis, even though we are Haredim, we are Israelis. The system, how do you maintain on one hand a system of, yes, boundaries. >> A system of community and everything, and on the other hand not get hurt and be in the system, and on the third hand —and you understand the scale and the implications of this—everything is very, very delicate. So there must be two things: it must be Daas Torah ( Torah opinion) that is not connected to personal agendas, and there must be clear leadership. Meaning, it cannot be that every important scholar, righteous man, and one who studies Torah—as much of a scholar as he may be— everyone just gives their opinions on this matter. Well, it's like in a war: there needs to be one chief of staff. One commander and a system that manages this war. And these are delicate things , therefore these various opinions... and this, I know it's a bit complex in the world of podcasts, in the world of journalism, in the world of media and tweets—for things to be managed this way. You know, it's a challenge even for heads of state in wars, when you can film every plane taking off from the air today. It is a challenge, but in this challenge, there is no other choice. There is no other way. Ultimately, it has to be a system that operates this way, so my opinion is irrelevant; it doesn’t change anything, and I’m not surprised by it . >> And I recall what happened at the end of the previous Knesset, which just concluded, when you passed three laws. Yes, the three Haredi laws, but at the same time they also passed the law to split the ministry, and throughout the term, the law to change the composition of the judicial selection committee passed, which is already stuck in the High Court. And in the end, there is a feeling that, yes, the legal counsel did damage and put spokes in the wheels for this government, but things for Smotrich, things for the Likud, did pass—you knew and you supported that, and you didn't get the necessary pushback from the coalition on the things the legal counsel opposed. >> That is part—that is part of the reasons that led to the famous letter from Maran Rabbi Landau. Fair enough. But, asterisk: This system that I mentioned at the beginning—of the country's founders who feel the state is being taken away from them—they operate very sophistically. They work very, very sophistically; we’ve been seeing it for two or three decades now. Let’s be honest: they are targeting the faithful bloc in the State of Israel. That’s it—I intentionally say the "faithful bloc" and not the " Netanyahu bloc," because it’s not just the faithful public that is growing and growing; it is today the vast majority of the people of Israel. You can see it, the street is not with them at all, with this bunch. If not for the political issue where they take 20%of the Arabs, they wouldn't be relevant at all. You have to remember for a moment that 50%of their so-called side is Arabs, and there are also many naive people there who aren't really into it, who are just bothered by the indictment against Bibi. >> A bit of Haredi, a bit of Judea and Samaria, a bit of this, yes. >> And so what they do is they play a game of divide and conquer; until Simchat Torah, they only fought the religious Zionists. And the satellites, and they told the Haredim, "Come be with us, we —remember also with the NIS compromise—we will settle this thing for you." >> And now they are doing divide and conquer; now, this divide and conquer, they did it, I will remind you. In 2003 . Where they formed a government together with Yair Lapid the father, with Ariel Sharon, they took out the Haredim; after two years they did a flip-flop, brought the Haredim in, took them out. They did the same thing in 2013. Flip-flop, they brought the Haredim in, took them out. This game is a game they play all the time. They decide who they are targeting and who they are...And that’s why even when they ask me, "So, in the end, who comes to choose because there’s a legal counsel?" Even the legal counsel has power limits—not in law, not on paper , not in logic. They have some kind of power limit. And then they decide who they are fighting. If they fight, where do they place their fight more heavily? And that’s why we said we would put the yeshivas first. That might help you understand what I told you before, that this is the most significant thing for us. But they are playing this game of divide and conquer. And then notice, the "Brother's Government" wasn't the Bennett-Lapid government; that wasn't the first, it was preceded by the Effi Eitam government (who later repented and regretted it) with the "father" Lapid, where we would push the Haredim out. Meaning, these ideas had already been preceded by others. I remind you that Rabbi Shach foresaw this, Maran Rabbi Shach foresaw this during the Oslo government. In the Rabin government, before Oslo, when Rabin formed the government he said: "Guys, we aren't going with this, precisely because of this thing." And then, when they took [office], they wanted to embrace the Haredim, and Rabin worked very, very hard back then to embrace the Haredim. By the way, even when we fought and were in the opposition, he fought. I was in Beitar Illit then, all of Beitar Illit was established thanks to that, grants and funds for Beitar Illit and countless things Rabin, of blessed memory, gave to Beitar so that the Haredim wouldn't be against him like the National Religious were back then, because he was doing...because he was doing the...the Oslo Accords. This game they are playing, they are playing a very, very sophisticated game, an organized system, that you should know, is an organized system not in the Knesset. You might not know, as a political correspondent, that in this system over half a billion shekels a year are invested from international funds and donors in Israel and abroad to dismantle this thing called the Haredim. They spend everything for this , and they play "divide and conquer," so you are right, this was fun for them . So they told him, "Come on, let's transfer money to the outposts because there's a war now and the atmosphere is against the Arabs, and let's screw the Haredim." We must not fall into this trap. Are there National Religious people, to my great regret, who have fallen into this trap? To my great regret, there are. >> Smotrich says, "I pray that Rabbi Landau will repent.""I don't understand how a person can even be Haredi today." What do you say to him? >> That he should look at his surroundings . How many "recognized but unofficial" institutions are being established in the national religious public? How many high yeshivas are deferring their IDF service, not Hesder yeshivas, in the national religious public? And then he can say if we succeeded or not. It's exactly the opposite; after 80 years, this path is the one that succeeded. I don't disparage their path, but I suggest he take the beam out of his own eye. >> Okay, so we are summarizing the last government, which is a right-wing government, the government of dreams, along with everything...uh, you know that ultimately the perception was that whoever sits and studies has an exemption from going to the IDF and an exemption from recruitment, and it ends in total failure. In this government, there was also, you know, the great disaster, the great massacre that you mentioned, which also made the situation more complex. Are you doing any soul-searching about this? >> A, I don't think there was a total failure. I think that as I said, the Haredi education idea succeeded, uh, there were many budgets that went to Haredi education. Read the headlines of what Bennett, Lapid, Golan, Liberman, and even Smotrich are saying today, telling you what they're going to do to the Haredi sector, and you'll know exactly what the achievements of the last term were. In other words, take their list of things, and those are the achievements. But it's true, there are certain things we talked about that didn't have divine assistance. >> I think about it a lot, and I've had conversations about it too. There is one thing that I think was a failure at the beginning of the term. I wasn't a member of Knesset yet, but as far as I know, to this day, it was buried within the coalition agreements and the whole system at the time, which really was a coalition agreement booklet, a real dream government. They voted for a Knesset Speaker who, on a personal level, I think is a desecration of God's name, I think it's a desecration of God's name. I think it should have been asked; someone who asks the elders does not fail. That is to the best of my knowledge, from what I've inquired. I wasn't in the role of faction chairman then, as I said, I was in the cabinet. I entered the Knesset afterward. >> I think this desecration of God's name has a price. >> And next time, what does it mean for next time, who knows? >> When one asks the elders, one does not fail; such a thing should have been asked, and I highly doubt that if such a thing had been asked, such a desecration of God's name would have come from us. >> Father, what kind of roles are you actually implying here? To Amir Ohana? To not take it? I don't know, but it should have been asked. It cannot be, it cannot be such a thing. A thing that should have been asked by the great Torah scholars; as I said, to my knowledge, it was not asked. There are things written that the land will not spit you out. There are things whose trouble......is dangerous, it is dangerous, and the desecration of God's name from this thing...I think there is a price for it. >> You’ve been listening to "Al HaPerek" from Mishpacha Podcasts. 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