מפגש - פרק 5: במרתפי השב"כ: אלי פלדשטיין פותח הכול

There are paths that Bnei Brak knows how to chart almost from the moment a child is born. Haidar, small yeshiva, large yeshiva, kevyl, house of Torah. Elifelstein grew up deep within this path. In the heart of Bnei Brak. He studied in famous yeshivahs. The future seemed to have already been written, but at some point something went wrong. At first he moved to a more permissive yeshiva. Then he left the framework and one day he put on a uniform and enlisted as an IDF spokesman. He did his best there, he was released, and then the terrible day arrives, the joy of the Torah of 1974. Three days after the terrible period in the history of the state, when the State of Israel is still bleeding and the war is just beginning and there is uncertainty and lack of clarity and they are searching for the kidnapped and do not know what the fate of hundreds of citizens is, this young former ultra-Orthodox man, supposedly the shaft, enters one of the most sensitive centers of power in the State of Israel. He enters [music] into the lair of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and in a short time he is already deep inside. He becomes one of the bringers and takers in the most important lair in the country. He is Netanyahu's contact person for military reporters during the most military and security period the country has known. For years, maybe since the day it was. The guy who grew up among the standards of Bnei Brak is now just a few meters from the place where the most fateful decisions are made . He stands there by the pit in the Kirya, sees every day the Ramatkal and the elected officials of the defense establishment and the security chief and the cabinet members. And he is there in the decision-making room, and then one day something very dramatic happens, Very mysterious Eli Feldstein [Music] has disappeared, not answering, not calling, no one, including his family, knows where he is, only later does it turn out that he has not disappeared, but that he is a stranger. He was detained by the Israeli security services, implicated in a serious security case, [Music] the document case that reached the German newspaper Bild. And from there the nightmare begins. Eli Feldstein will talk about isolation, about humiliation, about subhuman treatment in a small underground cell. The man who until yesterday roamed the corridors of power is now behind a locked door in the interrogation rooms. And outside, a hair is growing, we all remember her. Right-wing figures, ministers, Knesset members, all come out to his defense and demonstrate for him. The entire right-wing camp is fighting, fighting for Eli Feldstein. But the big blow is still ahead of him and it comes precisely from the place that was until recently his home. The Prime Minister's office is moving away from him. Prime Minister Netanyahu publicly minimizes the nature of the relationship between him and Feldstein He breaks down. Maybe he's breaking free. The man who until then guarded the launch and its people begins to talk about the launch. He changes his tune. He gives a version that directs the spotlight to the people he worked alongside and who were his best friends. To those who, until recently, were closest to him. And now he's here waiting [music] for trial, waiting to take the witness stand, and most of all, he's taking stock in this conversation that we'll see right away. He returns with us to what happened in the prime minister's launch after that terrible day, the October Seven, as it's called, to what he went through in detention and in the interrogation rooms. And he'll also return to the explosion with the people who were once closest to him. But the real story may be somewhere else because at the end of all the scandals and headlines and Netanyahu and the Shebak and the documents and Bild and Katargid, Eli Feldstein is left alone facing the child, the same Eli Feldstein who was a child in Bnei Brak, facing his family, facing himself, and facing his creator. And this time, for once, he's ready to open up about the difficulties of childhood, about stepping outside the box, about the stumbles, [music] about the failures, about the places where he thinks he belongs. He was right and also for the places for which he apologizes. He breaks down from the bottom of his heart. This is a journey that began on a bench in Petah Tikva , passed through the IDF, reached the top of the Prime Minister's lashkar and crashed in the interrogation rooms of the Shebak. And today we return with Eli Feldstein to this entire road without skipping a single painful stop. Eli Feldstein is already here and we are starting. [Music] Meeting with Aryeh Erlich. Conversations without masks [Music] with the people behind the headlines. Hello, Eli Feldstein. Hello, my dear, may God bless you . Listen, it took you a long time to get here. [Snorts of contempt] The truth is, it took me a long time, but not because I didn't want to come here. I think this is the first place I should have come here, but without a doubt, in the public media haze that you find yourself in [sighs] There are things that sometimes take you a little longer to digest and think about and be whole before you come and speak, but I have to tell you that I am very, very happy to be here [Snorts of contempt] and I feel Here is a family, a complete family, yes, in the end, there is nothing like coming home to me. You have been through a lot of ups and downs, you have reached unexpected places, and here you are back here, and it is not just in the studio, but in the whole family, the community. Maybe you will really tell me about the process you have been going through in the last few months since the affair broke out. The truth is, you said home, but I never feel like I have left home. I feel like even when I tried to leave, home has always haunted me. You know, I will tell you a short story. I am jumping ahead a little, but I will only tell you a story like this so that you understand exactly what I mean. You know, when everything you have built in life is taken away from you, and that is the moment when you are arrested, the moment when you are fasted, handcuffed, there is one thing that cannot be taken away from you, and that is your thought. You can limit yourself in thought. You can limit yourself in thought. Many people have asked me since the affair, tell me what they do all day in a dungeon, in prison, in the shabbos, in the prison, in what sense do you do? There is nothing [snorts of contempt] and it is amazing because people are sure that the answer I will give is They miss some good food, some crazy physicality you experienced in your life, some trip abroad, nothing. Everything is gone. In the hardest, most difficult moments, the only thing you think about is the moments when you sat and studied Torah. These are the moments when where you grew up at home. These are the things that stay with you. These are the things you miss. These are the memories that come to you. You don't have any physical memories. Everything is gone. And I understood it. You know when I saw it in another place. We all saw it. On October 7th, people were murdered, people who were the most disconnected from the Lord of the world, people who didn't live a life of Torah, didn't live a life of tradition, didn't live a religious life. What did they shout just before they were killed? Listen, Israel. So who asks you how this happens to them, where does this come from for them? There is no comparison here, God forbid. There is no comparison here. I'm not making this comparison, but I'm just saying that people in times of trouble, in times of distress, the place to which they return is the true spiritual place, and I, thank God, grew up in a house like this, I grew up In the world of Torah, I grew up in yeshivas where I had real spiritual moments to remember. And these are the moments that I must tell you that even today hold me in difficult moments. There is nothing else that holds you. You know, Eli, but before you returned to these moments and maybe you changed the length of your life in many ways and we will get to that later, you had a zetz, what is called today the zetz of life. How did you get there? Let's start from the beginning. Who are you, Elipalestin? Look, I grew up as a Haredi Haredi guy in Bnei Brak. A What is your lineage? The lineage. My parents, my father is from Palestine. My mother from the family is from Ovach. The family of my rabbi Mazalman. A family that is related to the rabbi who has long been a rabbi. A My grandfather was the brother of the rabbi Mazalman. Oh my father, his mother from the family is from Katsavogan. A Jerusalemite pasha from the gates? Sure. The most famous, right, the most famous, a familiar family and this is the house where I grew up. I grew up in the heart and the city of Bnei Brak is not In Bnei Brak, the border of Remezgan, in Bnei Brak, Bnei Brak, what is called the heart of the city [snort of contempt] I studied in Haidar, what is called Haidar, Karlin Storin, in Bnei Brak, yes, a well-known room, right, and from there I actually went to Yeshiva Or Yisrael Petah Tikva, Or Yisrael Petah Tikva, of Rabbi Binovich, a large yeshiva, this is the Rabbi, right, this is Rebbe Gal Moson, where I actually studied for three years. I finished a small yeshiva for three years and went north to Rehsim, to Kfar Hasidim, where I studied for a few months, and after a few months, about six months, I came to Yeshiva Rashi in Jerusalem, owned by Rabbi Miletsky, also 100 Shearim, Rav Chaikal, nicknamed Rav Chaikal, Rav Chaikal, right, so, okay, so there's an interesting transition here, oh, from Kfar Hasidim, you come to Yeshiva Rashi, I mean, what happens in the middle, what happens in the middle, because I think there's something in me at this age [snort of contempt] that is between a curiosity and the development of the modern world that naturally calls without any connection to me, that creates some kind of personal internal interest in me that I feel I am Not a person who is able to sit and study Torah all day long. I mean, this is my understanding with myself, but I am not yet ready to make the complete disconnection from the world of Torah and go out into what is called the big world. I am not there yet. And then someone prepares you for a Rashi yeshiva, which is a more open yeshiva, more forgiving, with a more flexible schedule. Very true. I arrive at the Rashi yeshiva and there I am actually what is called still learning to get to know the big world but I keep what is called the values ​​and the tradition and the house where I grew up and the clothing and the clothing and I sit and study Torah hat and suit hat and suit sits and studies Torah in the yeshiva every day but in a place a little more allows that also helps you as a yeshiva guy actually deal with the curiosity of the big world of what is happening in the so- called free world but at some point at some point I understand that because I don't sit every day and study I understand that I need to do something with myself and I also thought at that time I already thought that I would get married and I understand that I need to do something with myself that will also allow me to earn a living how old are you so I'm talking to you around the age of 20 something like that I've been studying for a good few years in the yeshiva and I'm thinking about earning a living and this thing leads me to hesitate between going and studying for a degree what is called in the haredi pedagogy was an extension of the academic calling Ono in Jerusalem in learning bought a queen and between enlisting in the army I must say that at that time the army seemed to me something dark From the black something of Yaharg and Bali to pass I don't know if you remember there were at that time it's a story of the million demonstration in Jerusalem probably a conscription law Yair Lapid part of the government a and it's a very very very very difficult period for the haredi bastard and I squint much more for a first degree and I say to myself the army is not part of the game it goes through a period 2013 nine ag yes that's right it goes through a longer period that I'm already reaching the age of 22 and only then actually I leave the yeshiva and I decide decides to enlist to explain to you my decision to enlist in the army enlisted me to the IDF spokesman I highlighted two to the IDF spokesman a privileged track should be said track a privileged track a track that doesn't really have service to it is a real contribution to the country what is called this is not the track that we would like to see a guys going and enlisting in the army if we see today guys want to be tagged for the army is to be fighters IDF spokesman what is called these are the more privileged tracks that allow more trades oh this is not the military combat service that we all all You know that because of him the Haredi public is being targeted, yes, that's right, very right, and this turtle service I owe is not better than that, it's not that there is an Haredi track within the IDF Spokesperson that allows Haredim to enlist. It's not what's called, it's not one of the places where the army speaks and opens up to the Haredi sector. It's really privileged, but the role that happens to me breaks into this thing is because I get the role where I'm actually responsible for speaking to the Haredi media. It was then at that time when I joined the army, it was a period when there was an address for the Haredi media, which is very important, there was no address within the army, what's called, they don't count them, you have to tell the truth, they didn't count them, and it was unfairly now, not to recruit Haredim, first of all, for if, if, the army is a body that protects the country, and there are daily events, operations, etc., etc. I think there is a place for the Haredi sector to receive a real response from the army, what's happening in the State of Israel, and the media that was used was deprived of this, and I come to this role and this place within [snorts of contempt] IDF Spokesperson, but I'm jumping on purpose. Come with me to explain to you the decision that led me to enlist. Look, it was a very, very, very difficult decision, very difficult in many ways, but do you regret it in retrospect? I don't regret it. I don't regret it. On the contrary, I think that in the end it's a framework that has protected me in many ways, but there are buts, buts, there are also many obstacles and we must not get confused about that. And I want to touch on one point for a moment that will actually tell you the whole story. After almost two years of being in military service, I arrive at the officers' course. I arrive at the officers' course and part of this thing called the officers' course has a lot of characteristics that characterize what is actually done in the officers' course. People think that the officers' course is just all day long in tight quarters and sports. It's not just that. There are also a lot of deep topics that are discussed in a forum within the officers' course. And one of these things is getting to know the people of Israel in all its shades. And one of the things that the base commander, Major General Yaniv, came to me one day and said, "Listen to me, I want you to give a lecture." For all the officers' courses, what is the Haredi sector? You said, I only have one preposition. Usually in the army, I don't know if you know. Ari, when a person is going to give a lecture, they approve the content before. I mean, they look at the content. I just have a request to go to you. Tenzura. You don't interfere with the content. You don't let me say what I have to say. He told me, okay. I prepared seven slides. Not many. Seven slides that basically explained in the most superficial sense possible. I was the last one I felt at the time to be someone who could represent the Haredi sector. But seven slides that explain in the most superficial sense, from the letters and the clothing to what faith is, what Hasidism is, what it is, what it is to be Lithuanian. But before I started, I came across the seven slides. I told them, I have one introduction to give you. I want to tell you that I have a brother who is currently in a yeshiva and he sits and studies Torah and he is not like us. He runs here in the hills and he does n't sweat. He has air conditioning there. But I value him no less than we do here. And unlike you, you can't tell me. Here are the Haredim who don't enlist because I also enlisted and I also volunteer to be a soldier. I didn't have to come to be an officer. I volunteer here. It's completely voluntary to be an officer. And I tell you, I tell you that what my brother is doing right now protects us no less than all of us here are doing. Now you know why you can't argue with me about what I said? Because I was on the other side where my brother is and you weren't. You can never understand the power of Torah, what the power of faith is, what the power of Dwkamar is to come and understand the contribution and the part of the yeshiva students who sit and study Torah and protect the people of Israel no less than we do. How did the guys react? I have to tell you that there was silence. It was quiet. It was quiet. It was quiet. Then they approached the people. I did n't have a single substantive argument with the people. They wouldn't argue with me substantively because I told them beforehand, listen, don't argue with something you don't know, go try what I tried, go try the What my brothers do, go try what my brother does and then come argue with me at this stage where you know that this is the world you know, you can't argue with me, you can't argue with me, and you know what, we've already talked about conscription and the army, with all the appreciation and gratitude I have for the army and why I got there, this is not the first option, this is not the first option. This is a default after I overreacted and decided with myself that I can't, I can't sit in the woods and study, and I had difficulties that I didn't know how to deal with, like making a living that I had already thought about. So, from your perspective, you chose a life path of hindsight, I mean, it wasn't in the winepress, it really wasn't in the first place. If I were you, I'll tell you more than that. I also said that in that lecture. If I felt for one moment that I could go back to the yeshiva and study Torah, I would abandon you all and leave you all and leave, because what you do is not important, but you can't, you can't understand that what I did, what my friends did. Doing is no less important and no and as we talked about the privileged tracks yes of course from these privileged tracks I tell you those who sit and study Torah draw much more much more and you will argue with me but argue with me on one Tana you were both where I was and also where I was you if anyone who was here and here come to argue with me but anyone who was only here or only here cannot argue with me because I experienced it on Besserab and I want to tell you something else if we are talking about conscription because it is very relevant to today they are talking about the conscription law today you know I look at this thing on this political discourse and I am between crying and laughing at this joke. Do you know why? The army has created in recent years, certainly in recent years, but much earlier, tracks that allow all kinds of diverse populations in the general sector. In the past, Circassians, Druze, special populations, for example those who have outstanding athletes, singers, all kinds of diverse populations creates the tracks for them That allows them to enlist. Why? Because the army wants them. The army wants them, maybe the army needs them too, but it allows them. Are you actually saying that the army doesn't really want the Haredim? It never wanted the Haredim. It never did . You know, we're talking about the Hasmonaean Brigade now. Tell me, you guys, you've just discovered that there's such a thing as building a Haredim brigade. Where were you 10 years ago? Where were you 15 years ago? You know, I'll tell you something. Ari, it hurts more. Maybe the Haredim don't understand it, but you have to understand it. [snorts of contempt] October 7th, right? War. There's one thing the army has to be ready for at all times. It's war. There's nothing after the army. The army fleet. All of us are ultimately meant for war. Right. There's routine defense. Everything. But war is the essence of armies. So tell me, Ari. You and I assume that the army has been preparing for war for years. Right. He's known what war is for years. Clearly. [snorts of contempt] And he's in war, he's built on reserve forces. Right. He didn't understand now that in war he needs reserves. He's known for years that in war he's You need reservists, right? Beautiful. What is there a defense budget for? Very beautiful. To do the reservists. So I didn't understand. He didn't know all these years that the reserves are something that we also sleep on. The general sectoralism of businesses and so on. That there is attrition in the reserves. He doesn't know it. All these years that he was preparing for war, he knows it. This [snorts of contempt] says, he already says, I mean, now you've discovered that there needs to be a solution to the problem of the reserves that are attrition. Where were you all these years that you were preparing for war? All the years that the army was preparing for war? What did you think the solution would be in a war for the reserves? Nikki, what did you think the solution would be? They talked about a small and smart army. No problem. So then you know what your answer is. The answer is exactly that. So now you come and want to correct the history of the State of Israel. And now you come with this Band-Aid that the conscription law now. You want to conscript now because you didn't prepare properly and didn't think about proper solutions for the war at the time and did n't build years of dedicated routes for the ultra-Orthodox. You didn't build an electrical brigade 10 years ago. Now you've built them. Now you built them, so the Haredi public is the one to belittle all this incompetence, all this long-standing military failure, both in relation to [snorts of contempt] and in relation to the war failures. They throw everything at the Haredi. Here is the population. The Haredi sector is the Band-Aid. The Haredi sector is the Band-Aid for a problem that should have been solved years ago. Now they are exploiting the momentum that there is some kind of so-called public sentiment because the fighters are being worn out and everything and discrediting the Haredi sector as if the sector, if you wanted this sentiment, would you just throw this sentiment and this sentiment into what it leads to? The worst thing that Sinai has to offer, to Sinai. Do you know why? Because I, because I, we already talked about it before, about the period when I studied in yeshiva. I remember the feeling of traveling on Line 2 from Petah Tikva to Bnei Brak and that look that looks at you as if you were an outsider, as if here is another anxiety of his. I know that feeling. I know that look. Whoever wants to enlist, and maybe this look broke you in the end and made you enlist, is Part yes is part yes so the media succeeded the politicians succeeded right demonization in some ways yes in some ways yes in some ways yes you are right Ari yes yes the sentiment the sentiment of the street this haredi sentiment of this feeling of not belonging okay haunted me haunted me on a personal level for a long time but there is no doubt there is no doubt it had a lot of influence the media and politics that did a disservice to the haredi public yes yes unequivocally to me I am very glad you said those things they are very true very useful especially when you say it as someone who came from there and maybe there will be politicians who will listen if they are honest the agonies in which maybe media people will draw lessons and change their perspective but I want to be brave enough to look inward and ask you as someone who went through this whole path the fantasy of developing in the military career and then the civilian in the prime minister's office and also experienced the crash and the entanglement and came from Igar Rama to the capital Mikta what in haredi education led to that in the end You're getting sidetracked, and there's a reason why I'm asking this question. I heard you tell me once about a family Sheva Birchot, Shabbat Sheva Birchot, where you realized that you were being left out. Tell me a major turning point in your life. I'll tell you, look, I think the story I told you about, the story of that Shabbat Sheva Birchot in the family, is a symptom within a much more vivid event of a child, of a child who wants to grow and flourish and be good, to be as good as all his friends. But he feels that he can't be good at what his friends are good at, but he wants to be good at something. He wants to feel like he belongs, he wants to feel part of it, he wants to be respected, he wants to be known . It's natural, it's not shameful. The question is whether we know how to take this child and give him a place so as not to put him in competition with someone who is not in the same bracket as him. And the Haredi sector is a diverse sector and it has many brackets, many brackets, but I'm telling you that today there are quite a few parents who I understand deeply who are going through experiences With their children, things are not easy long before the child even comes to the question of whether or not to join the army. Inside the house, the child is not good, does not succeed in studying law, and does not succeed in yeshiva. I say this not because the solution is always always to go to the army. I say this because we, as a group, sometimes need to know how to give solutions to the people within us, even if they are not the best in the place where we thought they would be. And my breaking point is the point where I understand with myself that first of all I am not going to be the most successful person in yeshiva. I can be talented. Did you face any difficulties, academic difficulties? I faced difficulties, mainly in the area of ​​speech. Can you expand on that? I grew up until almost 18 years old as a stuttering child. Wow. I was a child who stuttered angrily. My brain thinks too fast and it was not enough to transmit to the lips what the brain wanted to say. What was your most difficult experience as a stuttering child? Loneliness. How did the children accept you? I avoid social situations, but the difficulty of being able to, yes, the difficulty of being able to express yourself is a difficulty. Huge is a huge difficulty. Understand that this is a situation that comes from routine things that every person experiences. They come home long hours. Family happiness. I would very much avoid it. I would very much avoid it. You run away to a room, stay at home, and they take you to a place where you can communicate and try to cope. I am very young, very young, and I have been tested with it. It has been with me since birth, almost. I am very young. It was not a continuous stuttering throughout the entire time. It can come in periods. It can come suddenly around certain topics, but also studying Gemara with friends. Understand the complexity. It is complex. Did it stem from social anxiety or did it create social anxiety? No, I was a sociable person. Yes, I was a person who was loved, but I never knew inside myself whether they loved me for who I really am. They loved me because because here he is, okay, he is the kid who is pitied. The outsider is exactly that. And I tried to avoid that. I solved this thing on my own long ago, when I was young, at the age of 17, I solved it on my own by being in the trenches too. I would write, I would write to compensate for the difficulty in speaking, to share myself. Yes, and when I would write, there were things that I would mark as if they were really the experiences of a child who really wanted to share with someone, a good experience, a less good experience. And when I dismissed it with myself, I would simply stand in front of the mirror and tell myself the stories, the sentences that I wrote in my notebook, I marked them and marked them, which I would most like to share with them, which touched me the most, which were something I would most like to share with someone, and I basically trained my brain to think more slowly and speak with my lips. But I have to tell you that to this day I have moments when I can sometimes swallow a word. I still get up in the morning and I check myself that I don't stutter, and I believe that we will get to that, but it also met me in the interrogations. It also met me in the interrogations. It is a very difficult moment in the interrogations because you seem to have what you want to say. You want to spill your truth, and it is difficult for me. We will get to the interrogations, and I want to move forward a second in your life. I remember you from that time when you were In the IDF Spokesperson. You then began to establish contacts with the Haredi media, to send out press releases and offer tours in all sorts of hostile sectors. You definitely broke into the consciousness of at least the Haredi media people. And then after you are released, you arrive if I don't interfere with the launch of Ben Gvir. Right? Very right. How do you get there? I get there, the truth is he contacts me, he calls me, I think it was one Friday, he calls me and he told me that he received recommendations for me and we actually meet, close to meeting in the same conversation, in the same phone call. I think we even met twice before before we finally closed, that this is what we are going to do. Oh, I admit that I had concerns before, I had thoughts before, it was not the step that was easy for me and it was obvious to me. What were the concerns? Look, I knew the Voter of Otzma Yehudit. A I never voted for Otzma Yehudit . A And so [snorts of contempt] I said to myself if I need this mark if I need to be be be marked A And is this where I am to where I want to go after a career that I built for almost 10 years in the Israel Defense Forces and I graduated as an officer with the rank of captain A There were concerns about livelihood The livelihood Yes and also that the temptations and the desire to succeed Yes high Yes with the desire to succeed. Yes. It was It was a place. A But I have to tell you that we ended as friends. We ended as friends. After how long? It took about five months. You were only there for five months. I was there for five months. Five months to end as friends are not two figures that go together. Right right right. But it will still end as friends. I think we both understood that it was not It was not It was not meant to be It was not And then for a short period of time we did not see things eye to eye And this and this is legitimate And this is happening legitimate And then a few months later comes the unforgettable morning with us I prefer Call it Simchat Torah Teshuvah The world calls it Shiva in October Where are you then [sigh] Look at all this Day of the Lord It's a day a few hours before for you It's a holiday because a few hours before it's Oshana Rabbah And I was born on Oshana Rabbah I was born on the twelfth of Tishrei And we're right And this is the great year It's the day the books close right It's after Yom Kippur After Rosh Hashanah We fish these days And this is a holiday for me Birthday How many will you celebrate this year in Tishfez? 34 And I You You My birth mother Always celebrates in my past The family's opening A And this is a day when I He is accompanied by prayer Beating the willows Oh There are the buried conversations with the grandfather and grandmother Today I don't have that anymore Because I have neither grandfather nor grandmother I only have one grandmother on A On the other side Kadima . Oh And Simchat Torah is also probably This day It's a holiday. Oh I caught it at home with my parents. At my parents in Bnei Brak. In Bnei Brak . Oh I won't sleep with my parents that night. I'll sleep in an apartment. I live with my parents Pretty close to my parents But I Also in front of Barak also near Ramatgan. But I'm supposed to come to my parents' house on Simchat Torah for holiday meals for holiday meals and that night I went to bed very late, very late, we sat with my parents even later, because today is Holada, it's actually the first one, the next one came out on Friday, so Shabbat comes out, there was no time to celebrate, exactly, so it's late and my phone beeps, my phone doesn't stop beeping, and there are also zakats in the center, I understand that something else is happening, I come to my parents, on October 7, I come to my parents, and we start running, rumors are running, I'm already on October 7, and instinctively I get on my uniform, because it's, and I open my phone and my phone and I get a lot of calls from people from the army that I know and also from friends. One of the people I had the privilege of talking to was Major General Yonatan Shtielberga, one of the Nahal [snorts of contempt], a religious guy who was killed for October, and I and you talk to him for a few hours, okay, I'm talking, how much are you addressing Lashka or is she addressing you? I'm addressing Lashka, I'm talking to people I know inside the Lashka and this is actually the first time you're actually contacting the Lashka for professional needs to successfully integrate into the Lashka for professional and security needs. What motivates you? What are you thinking about when you defect to join the Prime Minister's Lashka? I understand at that point that there is anarchy, that there is confusion, that there are a lot of citizens who know better than many other officials what's going on. The well-known video of terrorists in the series is an excellent example. An excellent example because I remember a phone call I had with a color reporter on October 7th where I told him about the fact that there is a conflict in the south and he told me what are you talking about? I just spoke to the spokeswoman for the Colonel of the Rome Command. There is no conflict. They don't know anything. They don't know anything. And who do you turn to in the Prime Minister's Lashka? I spoke to him in October for me with Topaz Locke, who is a friend I've known for many, many years. The goal wasn't at that point to connect with the Lashka, but we're at an event where everyone has information that can help. And I knew quite a few people who were in positions of power within the army in light of the years that I served in the army. And there was information that came to me that people in official positions between the Prime Minister's office and the Prime Minister's office that I shared with them in order to save lives. That was a goal. There was no other goal. No, not at the same time, you don't think about work and profession. That's not the motive, that's not the event at the same time. Oh, I get the phone call to come to the Prime Minister's office four days later, on October 1. On October 11, the call comes from Topaz. Oh, it reads like a dramatic day. I don't know if you remember, but October 11 is the day when the State of Israel is debating whether to attack Hasbala or to go to the north. That's right. Oh, and this is happening on the afternoon shift. There is a dispute in the cabinet. There is a dispute between Galant and the Prime Minister. On that day, Negin joins the government, this is Gal Gizenk, and they join the side that prefers to stay in the south. Actually, that's right. And among you, your decision was a decision. I'm small. I say yes. In my opinion, your decision was right. Derry was also involved in it. That's right. Yes, and there was someone who said to say his name, but there was someone who said, and wisely, he said, don't try to make up for it. Your failure in one arena is success in another arena and that's exactly what could have turned into a failure in one arena as well at the same time. The two deputies are exactly that. This is exactly what Erdry, who sat here in your chair a few weeks ago, is what he actually reasoned. So then, here's Hasfat Aryeh. It was Rabbi Aryeh who said it. Don't try to compensate for your failure in one arena and try to bring success because you have intelligence now. In another arena, we missed out on one arena. Focus on it. The time will come and we will also deal with the north. And that's right. And then that day you arrive at the prime minister's residence and you already experience and hear about this hesitation about the dilemma. I understand that day that there is a big event. We do n't yet understand exactly what the event is. The cabinet meets around 7:78 p.m. Monday arrives exactly. Beni Gens and Gadzikut are in his house. The Prime Minister's room is where in the pit in the Kirya in the Kirya in the reading. They are inside the Prime Minister's room in the office and the cabinet meets in the area of ​​78 in the evening in the pit in the reading. Sorry, I'm going to digress for a second for the technique of identification, but I'm trying to understand. Are you harming the Prime Minister's launch? There is no such thing as a chain of reception. How exactly who is oppressing you? Who is paying you? How does it work? They tell you to come and work, and a moment later, an hour later, you are already part of the launch. Part of the grave. How does it work? You ask an excellent question. Look now, this is a legitimate question. This is a question that seems to us as if the world is in order. What happens? A person arrives at a workplace. How does it work? But then there was a crisis. After that, but then we were in the aftermath of the terrible disaster. Well, come on. Well, come on. Oh, and everyone who could contribute what they could contribute came and contributed. You will lose. And these matters are resolved later. There were people. There is no Moshe Banush wing. There is no manpower. By the way, this matter died after a few days. After a few days, but I, at first, do you want to hear? At first, I, at first, get angry in the reserves. There is what is called Rachel, an emergency authority. Nationally and in the first few days I draw in the reserves I arrive at the amazing The Prime Minister's Office I arrive at the amazing No, it's not really like that Four or five days It could be that you were the only military man around who was available in the area Oh, go to the Prime Minister's Office who ultimately finds herself in such a chaotic security situation Except for the military secretary, there is no one there who wears amazing Actually, so you see from the office you arrive at a point that I would take it to two points This is a valid question I'll tell you what I mean You touch on a point where the event of October 7th is an event that is different from the daily happenings The Prime Minister's Office of political events, events with countries in the world, is a military event in many ways, certainly in the first few days of October 7th. I mean, it is a tactical military event. And when you look now in terms of my role as a media consultant, then when you look at the media, the occupation first of all, it is clear that all the reporters were occupied up until that time in October 7th with the war, but the understanding of how a battle is fought and how a war is going to be fought was mainly with the reporters of color. Much more than with the other reporters, and this Prime Minister's press office, which on a daily basis works mainly with political reporters, less with military reporters. That is to say, a military spokesman was needed, and you were the one who was I will correct you. My role was to convey the facts and the government's policies, the military strategy, and the Prime Minister's decisions to the military correspondents . Not only did I talk to political reporters, I talked to everyone. That is, not towards the past default, but towards the current actions in the present. exactly . exactly. yes. As time passed, the question of responsibility also arose . okay? Also on the subject of responsibility, I'm talking facts. There are those in these facts who are uncomfortable and who see it as a transfer of responsibility to the army. It's okay for them to deal with it. And then you ease up. This range is a range that is very tense, very sensitive, very explosive these days, including shouting at Ramatkal A or shouting from Ramatkal in the pit in Kirya. Can you describe to me one of these situations? Yes, look. I think that the tension between the Prime Minister's Office and the army is a tension that existed even before October 7th. It is understandable. It is also an understandable tension. As you said, it also reads during the period of legal reform. It is a tension that exists. But I think that the moment when you understand that the army is troubled by something is a moment when I understand that Ramatkal Herzli Halevi Artzi Halevi outside a cabinet meeting while a cabinet meeting is taking place. He rebukes the Prime Minister 's spokesman at the time. The Prime Minister's political spokesman, Topsdoc, rebukes him for what, about this, about the fact that the Prime Minister's Office is briefing against IDF, that is, and it happens and it happens in October, Ramatkel Arzia Levi is leaking in Tofs Deluk about the activities of Elipalestin. He is not telling him yet at this stage. Elipalestin is telling him, you are, but we know who was behind the attack. But the continuation of this, the continuation of this, comes to me because the continuation of this comes to this. When the prime minister leaves the cabinet, the political spokesman of the Topzlog comes to him and tells him, "Listen, the expendable prime minister is now leaking." Runny nose. Tell me, why are we letting the Prime Minister launch a drill against the army? The Prime Minister asks, where is the Ramatkal? They tell him he has already gone up to his apartment on the 14th floor. The Prime Minister goes up to the 14th floor of the Ramatkel apartment. Now that's an unusual wind. The Prime Minister has a tract to read. The Prime Minister is not going up to the Ramatkal launch on the 14th floor. This doesn't happen. It's not happening. The only times the Prime Minister comes to floor 14 is when there are toasts on holiday eves on holiday eves every forum that comes to trouble comes the Prime Minister comes but the Prime Minister goes up to the launch goes up to the launch of a full fast after Shabbat Cabinet Prime Minister enters the elevator presses floor 14 presses floor 14 now you also know the Prime Minister also comes this is about promises it is arrangements it is not he goes up to Ramatka to the 14th floor and he goes into Ramatka to the room I know you are lying because the Prime Minister called me later and told me about the conversation he had with the Ramatkal He tells him you told Tofs Zog that we are persecuting you Ramatkal tells him yes you brought Eli Filstein he was in the army he is a song in the IDF Spokesperson he knows the military reporters he talks to military reporters he is briefing against us Ramatkal says this to the head of the Mishna Ramatkal says this to the Prime Minister The Prime Minister's goal is that he is returning to Ramatkal and he tells me listen I was fond of Ramatkal that he was left In the speech he says Ramatkal, tell me what we are briefing and he points at you, says asks the impression, tell me you are fighting against the IDF, its necessary, no [snort of contempt] no we are only talking about your policy and your strategy and what you are and what you are telling us there are no arguments against the army here but what is killing us so what is killing us so this is the month of October, war what is preoccupying Ramatkal what is preoccupying Ramatkal is blocking the way against it and I tell you looking back looking back as one who was also inside the Prime Minister's office the amount of publications that were against the army that were published investigations against the army about the failures before October 7th and the October captivity I don't know one of them one that came from the Prime Minister's office one do you sign this statement yes I don't know one no I don't know a press publication of an investigation of some exposure that explained the military failure that came from the Khoshemshela office. I don't know. I do n't know. It was just pure paranoia. I say this, the Prime Minister's office finally acquiesces and provides answers to political, color, political reporters, it doesn't matter, about the facts and the policy. There were disagreements, there were agreements. There were briefings where people thought differently than they thought or there he sent now otherwise the Minister of Defense would have waited for me this this this there is no argument about it but to come and say that every act of the mind the whole action of the launch and the spokespeople was to shift the responsibility onto the army is not it is simply not true are there any facts that were collected that explained why the army failed on October 7th by the way the question of who failed on October 7th does not have to be a question of either or both responsibility everyone has responsibility can be divided but to say but to say but to say that it was Lali Paleshtin's job to shift the responsibility onto the army yes and to say that the prime minister is not this is what is called taking things to extremes and it is not true and still speaking of the calls for a state investigation committee and the responsibility of the government and the prime minister you are experiencing things a few days after the outbreak of this terrible disaster and you are trying to run back and understand what was there, why didn't they listen to the observers, why that night when there was a consultation call between the Ramatkal, the head of Shabak, the head of Haman, are n't they enlightening the Prime Minister? What's going on there? Why is nothing happening until 6:3 in the morning? What do you understand that they tried to hide information from the Prime Minister, to conceal from him? What was there? Look, I can tell you my personal opinion , from my experience and my observation and my impressions of everything I've seen. I have one simple answer. The Ramatka did not count the Prime Minister. Do n't count the Prime Minister. The Ramatka did not count the Prime Minister. I mean, who are you in the language? Who are you? I'll call you now and you'll tell me what's important and what's right for the army to do. Maybe you're the head of the pyramid. Maybe you're the one who's supposed to give orders to the navy. It's clear to me and you. Maybe Ramatkol is subordinate to the prime minister. It's clear to me and you. And to the chief of staff of the Israel Defense Forces. It's not clear. It's clear. It's not clear. And I'll tell you how I know this. Because for years, you know. In the end, for years, the army knows how to come to cabinet discussions and present options. We know how to do A, B, and C. Mr. Prime Minister, choose a goal. Make a decision. We recommend A, B, or C. But you choose. The army knows how to bring you to a situation in advance where it puts you in its basket of options and doesn't let you think outside the box. The army knows how the army has been for years, redeeming the options in such a way that you choose what it wants. What it wants. For years, it's been doing this. People will come and say, rightly so. And there may be some truth in this. The prime minister remembered to challenge the military system too late. I accept that. I accept that. There was a place to challenge the military system much, much longer before October 7th. Long before but still but still for years for years the army was almost the only one in control and almost the only body that ultimately led the political echelon to the decisions that it wanted the political echelon to make and then when October 7th comes they don't count it, they don't count it, so they don't call it, but there are signs of a war breaking out, you see Hamas preparing beyond the fences for something big, the fact that they shine a light on all the top brass in the various security systems is just that if you see signs of something happening, it doesn't justify an update to the Prime Minister. This justifies and more than justifies. This just explains what I told you before, the narrow-minded perception of the political echelon as a kind of rubber stamp . He is we we understand the real ones with confidence. So maybe it was arrogance that led Ben Hatcherson. I also want to ask you another question. Is this a perception that has permeated for years or is it specifically related to the relationship between Artzia Levy and Benjamin Netanyahu? It's definitely not related to the relationship between Ramatkal and the Prime Minister, but for years, this has been a perception for years, this is towards Netanyahu specifically or his predecessors in office. This was also during the period when Izkot was Prime Minister. This was also during the period when Aviv Kochavi was Prime Minister. But it's always towards Prime Minister Netanyahu. It's always. I'm telling you, he disrespects the Prime Minister, he despises him. I think inside I think inside the room there is respect there is respect this disgrace you are talking about, isn't it? What I told you before is reflected in the preparations before and after the easy outward everything what is called everything is good Mr. Prime Minister, just to get your point across. There is an allegation that was made in retrospect by the Prime Minister and his entourage. They say Alip Elshtein was not really in the circle close to the Prime Minister. You were a kind of what is called in military parlance a tool-carrying assistant to Yonatan Urich or something of that nature. You were not really in the circle close to Netanyahu. How do you relate to this allegation? Look, I will say two things, first of all, I came to denigrate, denigrate the people of Israel. That was the reason why I brought for me on October 1st and that is the reason why I brought there. I did not come to sing Adam. I did not come to denigrate the people of Israel. You had personal conversations with Netanyahu. I had conversations with Netanyahu. Regarding the Prime Minister's denial, I don't get into positions, I don't get into definitions, I don't deal with that. I didn't come when I came for a role and definitions, but there are things that can't be argued about, they will testify better than me, oh, about the belonging, my part of the work, a, inside the Prime Minister's office, a, in the first year of the war, it's what's called, it's written in blood, and what's personal, I'm not, I don't look at it and say to myself, a, well, they say you were fine, I wasn't the most important in the office, I'm not the most important, there are people older than me and there are people better than me, and in the end, I did my work for the Prime Minister, in front of his most selected advisors, a, at a certain time, there was Topaz, who was a political spokesman, and in a period that is more familiar, it was Bonaturich, in front of those people, I worked, in front of those people, I left the actions I did, and I, what's called, a, do n't seek to specify my role, okay, and the Big Boss knew about what you were doing at any given time, look, the Prime Minister, he has other things to do, okay, and therefore not everything goes and bothers the Prime Minister, and not everything, not everything, comes in and bothers him, okay, he has more important things, what you say is very significant, right, right, towards the affair, right, in the end, the Prime Minister is the Prime Minister, you're not You go into it with every update and you don't bother him about anything. There's a chief of staff and there are media advisors who are better than me than me, no less talented than me, who are a prisoner to the prime minister, and the prime minister 's media policy and the prime minister's cabinet come from them, and so in the end, oh, the work I ran, my expectations were mainly against your teachers, and so on a personal level, it's insulting, it's hurtful. The maneuvering, yes, you didn't expect, you didn't expect such treatment, nothing of what happened here, no, I didn't expect, yes, what was, but certainly not that. Certainly not at moments like these. I have to tell you something. Look, you're an editor, right? It's not a newspaper. You have people under you. If one of them makes a mistake, I'm responsible. And most importantly, you'll definitely back him up externally. You'll call him into the room and tell him, "It's not appropriate." The last time that happens, it's long before the question of what the prime minister knew or didn't know. Your intelligence. He knew or didn't know. Who will stay? What won't stay? It's not interesting at all. There are collegial working relationships between employee and employer. You don't behave yourself the day he makes a mistake. You don't throw it away. And even if he makes a mistake, even if you didn't know, even if you didn't know, you treat him like your employee and take responsibility, take him to the room, tell him no no no and move on. The complete maneuvering is not recognized, it did not work here, certainly, certainly, certainly, in an event where all the fuss is a part of it. We will get to the event later. But still, I want to challenge what you said just now and ask you, listen, this is not just a workplace, this is the Prime Minister's launch, the most important launch in the country in the midst of a war period, and here comes some kind of complication that originates from a fairly new employee who is very arrogant, who runs ahead and does things at the speed of light, and something happens that literally, let's say, tears the hem of the Prime Minister's robe, burns the hem of his robe, and in another second, the Prime Minister himself is sucked into this international, legal, criminal entanglement. This is the time when the Prime Minister may feel the need to say, maybe he did things that are not related to me, they were not in agreement with me, they were not on my mission and they were not with my knowledge. What do you expect the Prime Minister to do? He himself will get into trouble because he works in the ranks or less. He did it on his own accord, on the advice of others, but certainly not on his own. Your question is mine. I have a problem with the basis of the question and I will explain it. If the Prime Minister had said what I understand and know to be the truth, he would have said, "I left the document to leak. There was no event." You are making an assumption here. Beck says there was a second event. In a second, we will get to Beck. You are making an assumption here. If the Prime Minister says what the Prime Minister says and I understood to be the truth, I left the leak, he came in from one clearinghouse. The answer is incorrect. [Gasp] I will take you to some early examples. And I will also take you to some much later examples. Do you know of events in which the censorship seal forbade publication and the Prime Minister decided that it was permissible to publish and he published them? Do you know of such events? There were such events. There were such events. Let's begin. From the disclosure of the disks, you remember the nuclear facilities in Iran, you remember, you remember until recently, the Prime Minister's cover-up of the fact that the Sachari investigation was to publish about the Prime Minister's son, you remember that, yes, great. I'll show you another story in one of the cases. In one of the cases, one of the suspects is named Yonatan Urich. In one of the investigations, he is framed on suspicion of passing on secret information. Not in the context of Bild, in the context of another case. You know what happens after two hours, he is framed on this suspicion or that his office takes responsibility. Very true, and the suspicion is dropped from the agenda. Your basic premise in the question of the Prime Minister getting involved if he tells the truth. He revealed it to my daughter. This is the truth. It is wrong. It would not be true that the title of the head of government is the one who has the secret. But maybe the truth is that he really didn't know about it. Okay, okay, so I want to ask. Do you have information that the Prime Minister knew? I have clear, solid information in the evidence. My line of work. My line of work in the Prime Minister's office was with the Prime Minister's chosen advisors, mainly with the Prime Minister's chosen cronies. The government is most of the time in front of the Prime Minister's chosen ones and the things that I did I left to them. There are things that Jonathan Tonorich, the Prime Minister's closest advisor with him for years, confirms to you. In my view and not only mine, it's as if the Prime Minister will stay with you. You don't go to the Prime Minister with everything, as if the Prime Minister will stay with you. But again, there is no evidence here that the Prime Minister knew. This is very significant. I understand exactly what you are saying. You must understand one thing. I am not telling you that I went to the Prime Minister and the Prime Minister will stay with me, but I, when I plan, think of this document as a media event. I turn to Yonatan Urich. There is one sentence that is spread on WhatsApp in black and white. Many people know it. You know what it says there that when I talk to the Prime Minister, I write and I need the Prime Minister for this. Who writes this? I am to Yonatan Urich and I need the Prime Minister because I understand that this is an event that requires the Prime Minister's settlement and consideration. You write this, but that still doesn't mean that the matter is a mud matter. There is no problem. So that's why Jonathan also spent a little less time in the room, unlike me. The interrogations suffered a lot there. True, they separated him from his baby. True, he also went through difficult experiences. Not easy, not simple, not very simple, painful. The story between you two was true friends. A tragedy. Your relationship with Yonatan Urich [snorts of contempt] is known to be rebellious. It started with great friendship, true friendship. He trusted you, brought you to the launch, worked hand in hand with you, and it ended with a big explosion, with extremely difficult dialogues in the interrogation rooms. Underneath it are sharp, very difficult things. When you rewind all these events, is there a moment where you can put your finger on it and say, "Did I not act right? Look, if Jonathan, I had a very deep, emotional friendship, you have any emotions, a soul player, yes, I have to tell you that people ask me about him, Nathan. I don't say I loved him. I say I still love him. Yes, despite everything that was true, I have enormous anger, I have enormous disappointment. Enormous, but I love him. I know the Jonathan behind the keyboard. He is very sharp-tongued, [snorts of contempt] talented, a family man, a sensitive man. And so, and so, my pain and my anger are great because I know him and I ask myself why. [snorts of contempt] I ask myself why. Why? Because this whole thing could have been prevented. Listen, maybe it's because you two got caught up in an arena of sharks and anteaters and snakes and scorpions. And in the end, everyone thinks how, how does he survive the event? Look, it's not an easy international event. We also know that, let's be honest, when it comes to Netanyahu's launch, so... They are taking the most severe measures possible, there is a bias in the law. This is how an entire camp in Israel feels, and in this situation, everyone thinks how I can get away with the incident. You've hit the mark. Look, in my incident, my biggest difficulty was at some point, they talk about forgiving me, they talk about harming the security of the country, then they go down, down, it starts at the highest level, then they calm down and lower the case, and in this situation, everyone thinks how I can survive, how I can get out of here with minimal damage. The damage they inflict is not just legal damage. Everyone is a family man. They have a baby at home. They miss her for weeks when they're in a dungeon like you. Do you know this situation? It's human nature. What you're saying is that everyone will think how they can get out of this situation. But I have to tell you that I acted against nature. For a very long time in the detention that I went through, I was not allowed to meet a lawyer, cut off from everyone. They simply disappeared me one day during this period. I knew the truth. I knew the same truth that I knew from the beginning, the same truth that I eventually told both during the interrogations and outside. I saw her from day one but I didn't say it I did n't tell her everything at the beginning in the interrogations you know why because I didn't think about myself I thought about him I thought about him a lot you know when I couldn't anymore read two things one when I realized that the wait from me that I was alone who did you understand that how did you know that this wasn't an interrogation exercise that is being done to you to break you so look I didn't believe it at first at first I got it in the middle of the interrogations I didn't believe it I didn't believe it and then at some point my share was canceled I met a lawyer and I met a lawyer and he also tells me this and I also didn't believe it who this lawyer's name is Wood Tseburi you know which camp he is from obviously do you know who he represents? Do you know how much he loves Netanyahu? I don't find political interests in this case by my assessments just like I don't find interests in your dentist when he examines you to have your tooth pulled because he thinks differently from you in his political opinion my Horachzan worries about me and I have to tell you that I didn't recognize any political or sexual interests in this case but still He continues to represent you, right? Yes, but still, when I first meet him, he tells me that and I don't believe him. By the way, I didn't believe him. I didn't know the noise outside and the headlines. I didn't know. I was disconnected. And he came to me the next day. He came to me. He said, "You can't bring anything into the facility that requested it. You can't bring anything in. [Sighs] So he printed newspaper clippings and photos of news reports. What do they say? When the Prime Minister's Office said that no employee of the office was stabbed and that they don't know me? That broke me. And then when I go into the interrogation room after that meeting with the lawyer and they repeatedly present evidence in the file that links the Prime Minister's Office to the case, like the message that I told you about earlier and need the Prime Minister for this and a bunch of other correspondence between me and your oven builders, I'm out of energy. And then you change your line. And then I tell the truth. I don't change my line. This is not a story that you're looking for evidence for. This is evidence that I'll fabricate a story on. It's the other way around. And on top of that, the truth must be told. There is a hunting and persecution campaign. It was not born with me. It started long before against those who work and hold right-wing political views and love to ruin the government. I felt two things all along. I felt that the main motive started with the story I told you earlier in October that Ramatkal did not tell the Prime Minister. He did not tell the Prime Minister and reprimanded the Locke police. You are right about the Prime Minister and continuing with the investigation. And continuing with the investigation. You know what the investigation itself is. You know what there is. Say it is allowed to investigate. I will not get into that. But the conditions under which they arrested the people and interrogated them in the Shebak basements, preventing a lawyer from meeting them. They would violently grab each other as if they were spies who would spy for Iran. These are the conversations that I had with an investigator in the first investigation. They were sure that they had discovered here a route of ongoing information transfer from someone who was leaking from within the army to the Prime Minister's office and beyond. They did not understand that there was one document. In total, they thought there was some madness here. They did polygraph tests on me to make sure that there were no more documents, that there were no more things. They did not believe it. That there was only one. They didn't believe it. And it was felt all the time that their motive was an ideological motive. I mean the motive, I'm not talking about the investigator in the room, I'll explain something to you in a moment. I'm talking about the investigative motive, a personal motive, that in the end there's a war here between the prime minister and the justice system, and there are people who pay, and there are victims in the middle who pay the price. You felt like they were looking for the head. They're not just looking for the head, I have to tell you something that will blow your mind. I have no anger at the investigator at the end. No matter what he did to me. No and no matter how hard his life was. Do you know why? It took me very little time to understand that he was following orders. Everything from above. Everything everything everything everything from above. When you say from above to where up? The highest there is. This is an investigation that is personally initiated and everything in it is personally initiated by the legal advisor to the government and the state attorney. I'll tell you a story. When I got out of the Shebak facility and arrived at the A-Shell prison in the south, I was granted a visit. I had quite a few firsts after the stage where they serve Against you, the trouble is drowning before an indictment. You can already receive first- hand information. I received first-hand information. These are visits from people who are either in positions within the security establishment or have immunity. Members of Knesset, and so on. Some of them will remain in the diamond. There I want to tell you about one of them [as a friend], a person we all know without a name. We all know him. He came to visit me. An ultra-Orthodox person, not a stranger in the security establishment, came to visit me. I sat with him for half an hour and told him and recounted to him quite a few of the things I went through. He was a mutilated man, I'm talking to you, all in retrospect, I know, yes, at the time I don't know. I see him as a mutilated man. And I tell him mainly about the conditions. [Snorting contempt] Conditions. You have to understand, I'm in the conditions of a security prisoner. By the way, people in Beit Zedek are complimenting Ben Gvir on the change in the prisons. I saw it firsthand. I mean, the change also applies to you. There was an employee in the Prime Minister's office who was arrested under a security clause. That's right. And then he's you. You received terrorist conditions. Exactly. I'm sitting in the wing. It's the national separation wing. Where is it in the prison? Where is it located? But before that, before that, I was in the Shebag facility in the center of the country, which is a large facility that also interrogates Jews for security offenses. And there were terrorists here at that time. There were terrorists here from Sajjaya. You saw terrorists there next to you. I saw terrorists. I also had a conversation during one of the interrogations. I had a conversation with the head of the Shebag Investigations Division who came to visit me. Oh, and he told me that they were interrogating terrorists from Sajjaya here in this facility. I'm in complete isolation. I'm in a completely isolated place. Yes. What are the conditions there? There's nothing. Are you in a small room underground? No. My room was actually high up, but it's like an airtight chamber. I mean, is it on the same floor, but is there daylight? No, there's no daylight. [Sighs] Nothing, nothing. Nothing. A dark room, walls painted black. Walls painted black. How big is it? I ca n't tell you in meters, but it's small. Small, what? Is there anything in the room? Nothing. Black walls. There's a very thin mattress on the floor. On the floor. You don't have a pillow, you don't have a blanket, you don't have anything. You have like a bucket of mini-roasted food for your needs and there's a shower stream that comes out [askakh] from the wall that's on for seconds. Sera boiling water boiling boiling boiling boiling boiling I'm leaving there with talaq I'm not the first item they put in for me [askakh] was tefillin besides that at your request yes and besides I didn't get it because I didn't wear clothes for two weeks. There's very little food. How long have you been there? I've been there, oh, three weeks more alone. Do n't you see a living soul? Nothing. When do they harass you for interrogations? All day. Even in the night shift the interrogations end late at night and then they bring you back to tea, right, a pocket because you're blindfolded you don't see anything on the way like a terrorist just like that and how do you pass the hours you manage to fall asleep sleep a little bit take a nap a little [snoring contemptuously] a few hundred the first few days it's hard to sleep but the body is crashing the body is falling At some point I had days when I had a hard time, the mattress was very thin, so I would fall asleep sitting up and in the morning they would take me for interrogation, put you back in a chair, but my body was busy from the night before. I was in interrogations on the treadmill, I would sit on the floor. You sit on the floor in the interrogation room. You can't sit on a chair. I'm capable. I'm capable. The interrogators show some empathy. I told you before, I'm telling you this, there are moments when I feel from them that they are what is called, they are true to the address. I feel it from them. The sharpest things for me are in my first conversation with my parents. How long after the arrest? 12 13 days, my brother, I'm detained, first pardon for 13 days, you have no contact with your parents, nothing, I mean you disappeared, right, they don't know and no one knows where you are, right, that's normal, that's legal, what do your parents think in the dark when you relive with them, they understood, they understood that something happened, they didn't know what, but you asked me about the interrogator, so I remember him in my first conversation with my parents, I remember him, I saw the His tears and this is one moment among many more moments that we talked about before even he felt sorry for you where you understand that there are higher powers here that it's not him I have nothing to complain about I have nothing to be angry with him he acts in the service of powers stronger than him very true maybe they see you as the pawn that will bring the right the big fish wo n't happen is what you tell yourself so even now also now what keeps you these days in a black cell on cold nights probably on the thin mattress it's a bit cliché but it's the truth whoever believes is not afraid this is the truth you discover in yourself first of all powers you didn't know you had you said you had before you talked to him not all the time what did you say what I feel like I'm with him on WhatsApp you have dialogues with the Holy One blessed be He all the time and I believe that what he does is all for the good even now I believe that what he does is all for the sake of talking you ask for some kind of sign a sign from heaven I see signs all the time in later stages I already see signs I'm really like in later stages I can tell you about one story that I have a moment in prison there is I'm in the south in Beersheba in The National Prison Department is a department where very dangerous prisoners are held, most of them terrorists from very large terrorist organizations. You won't have to say the name here, but names that we all know [snorts of contempt] or prefer not to know. Right, right. Oh, and what about the Nokba terrorists? They are inside the prison. It's a small thing. You see them being planted. You can't be in solitary confinement. But yes, everything is heard and the smell is noticeable. You know, the potters do what they can within the framework of the law, what they are allowed to do with you. But in the end, you will be detained for security reasons. And there are detention hearings every few days, and the prosecutor's office asks to evaluate the detention and detain him. There are hearings. And there is one moment in the Supreme Court on Saturday night when Judge Elron comes. He says, "I am coming with the aim of releasing you." I remember the situation when they ask for a closed-door hearing, and he raises something to him, and he gives him another 24-hour detention extension. And the next day, they already submit the trouble. And then you can automatically ask for more. Five days of trouble and this is the moment when you say to the Holy One, blessed be He, why do you mean I'm stopping here for a second? They actually do all the legal tricks to force the Supreme Court to keep you in detention, to keep you in detention, even though the Supreme Court, which is the highest legal instance in the country, thinks they should release you, and then they do some kind of technical exercise that allows you to be kept for another five days, very true, and then you say, and then I say the verse that we all know, a general tool, why did you leave me? I already feel a show that gives me strength, and I get a message out of nowhere. They come to me in the afternoon to shave my prison shoe, the commander of everything, and he says to me, you have a birth defect, and a member of the Knesset of Midot HaTorah comes to visit me with a letter that my head of the Shiva wrote to me in Sheva Katana, Rabbi Modhavinovich, wrote that it was all not a lesson in faith. Wow, and in one moment the whole circle closes. The house, the yeshiva, the faith, the Holy One, blessed be He, and you say, and you say, the Holy One, blessed be He, says, don't worry a little more, a little more . You got the message, I got the strength, I told myself, I'm here. What you want now I am not broken. And it came at the most critical moment, the most critical moment, the moment of complete breaking, when you say to yourself, enough is enough. You receive a book of Psalms for a cell. Part of the day, there is almost nothing inside my cell. It is forbidden to keep books. I would receive this. This is Rabbi Alonim's sken of the weekly parsha on Friday. It would hold me. [gasps] From the rabbi of the tool. Yes, he mentioned that he writes in the family newspaper today. His name is Yosef Chaim Salah. Right. Yes, and this entire period of detention. How long does it last? I have been in detention for a total of 45 days. 45 days. In a comfortable, superhuman, subhuman environment, maybe on the sidelines alone. Look, I will tell you something else. I had no first-time visitors in prison. At the stage of the crisis, I am drowning. After an indictment, I could already be visited. I had a visit from either people from the security establishment or members of Knesset who have, uh, immunity. They can visit. And during one of the visits, a person from the security establishment visited me and heard from me about my conditions. He told me, tell me what he understood that I did not have the basic conditions that I have. I did n't have a canteen, I didn't have a TV, I didn't have any [ __ ] things. In retrospect, he got mad when he got out of there. He called the deputy head of the Shin Bet and he knew him by the name of M and told him that M knows me. They know me from my positions in the army. In my last position in the army, I was the spokesman for the Judea and Shimron branch. He was on a position in the Shin Bet in Judea and Shimron. He knows me. He said, "Tell me, do you know what's going on with Eli?" He told him, "I'm sure everything is fine with him. What he can he gets, what he can he gets. Or [snorts of contempt] Don't catch me in the word of quotes, but plus minus what is called tells him, listen, I want to tell you, I was with him just now, I want to tell you what his conditions are so that you can understand for a moment where he is. I was with him, wondering what was going on. So he has neither this nor that nor that nor that and this Unfortunately, it was already in the last few days, before I bought it, it was four days before I bought it. At what point do you and Jonathan Orich meet for the first time? As part of the arrest surrounding the Qatar affair investigations. A In the first days of detention, I meet Shonatan in an interrogation room A To verify that we are cold A They put us in the same room It's the first time I've seen him since Since the day I was arrested, which is October 27, 2024 A very charged meeting Yes, difficult Do you feel that they tried to create tension between you, to cause a conflict? I feel like they tried and succeeded in some ways. Look, there was a built-in tension from the fact that we were in some kind of specific matrix of the situation, what is the name, actually of the investigative situation. yes. This is a situation in which there is built-in tension. [Sighs] A [Choking] I don't think that neither I nor he thought that when this incident started it would end up where it did and I don't think there was an understanding of the dimensions of the power in which in the end they didn't look for me, who am I? I'm not interested in the legal system. They're interested in the Prime Minister, that's what appointed them and there's a victim on duty. Yes, yes, this time it fell on me. yes. In retrospect, wouldn't you have worked to leak the information to the German child? In retrospect, I would do everything to know that the Prime Minister himself approves this leak and not just, oh, and not just living with a personal understanding that if I talk to Jonathan about it, then Jonathan is the Prime Minister. In your understanding, then, how was the leak supposed to benefit the State of Israel? This leak, first of all, was useful. It was useful. It concealed the truth. It concealed the truth. In the end [snorts of contempt] This is of course a document in Iksor's handwriting. It's not handwritten. His handwriting is a publication by Amge. It's a different publication. This is a document that actually tells what Hamas' strategy is. Of course, we pointed out what Hamas' strategy is regarding the waiting campaign in the hostage deal. This is the document from that period. During that period, there were legitimate demonstrations. I don't know. God forbid. I don't have any. God forbid. If this were to happen to me or someone in my family, I'm sure they would have done the same thing, maybe even worse. But in the end, there's a document that says that the demonstrations that drew what Hamas set out to achieve, which is division within the people of Israel and to put pressure on the Prime Minister and the Minister of Defense when he doesn't really want a deal. This is part of his strategy and part of his will. And then they claim against you that the leak was intended to sabotage the hostage deal. Yes, only it's exactly the opposite because the Prime Minister's strategy was that only military pressure would bring back Signatures Yes, it's a strategy that worked in the end. He himself Yes, at that time it seemed like a strategy that couldn't be believed. It seemed like it didn't come up with me. why? Because a week ago we received terrible news that two hostages would be murdered in a tunnel. yes. Then how come you come, how can you come and say you sent a military force to find kidnapped people? Military pressure kills hostages. And when you come and say, listen a minute, listen a minute, military pressure can bring back the hostages because Hamas doesn't really want a deal. Don't really want a deal. So you are helping the deal, you are not hurting the deal. But there were those who thought or were made to think that if now, if now we were hit and shouted, that would be what would actually return the hostages. What actually returned the hostages was military pressure, and that was right, Chief. So the leak, according to you, was intended to repel the pressure for a deal at all costs and bring better military conditions to the deal. The document was intended to help the Prime Minister, to help the Prime Minister with the message: Send a turtle and return the hostages. I understand. How did the document come into your hands? Look, the document comes to me from my children, filled out by their son, whose name is Ari Rozelfeld. He addresses me, I have no prior acquaintance with him, I know him through A Hamib. Actually, Hamib knows me. Hamiv prays with my father in the same synagogue and Hamiv knew that I worked in the Prime Minister's office. He contacted my father several times, told him, "Tell Eli to talk to me. My son-in-law is actually looking for him. In the end, he contacted me personally and sent my phone number to his son-in-law, the same person, Ari Rosenpan. The same person contacted me. You have to say at first there is no document. At first, when he talks to me, the person, there is no document. He talks to me verbally. He tells you that there is a document, there is a reptile. Yes. There is no document. He doesn't show you the good news, he doesn't show it. I'll tell you more than that, Aryeh. Not only is there no document at first, even when he sends me something, he doesn't send a document, he sends a photocopy in Hebrew of a translation of a translation. That means there is no document. I'll tell you more than that. The information at the end that goes to the German boy at the end is not the document. You didn't send a photocopy of the document at any stage. Very true, that is, Bild trusts you. There could be a change in this case because Inorn is the one we'll talk to. Very true. There is no document, and therefore the claim that the document harmed the state's foundation. I'm asking just one simple question. There are 100 areas of confusion that can be explored along the way. If you really wanted to prevent harm to the state, give you only two areas of conflict. One is that there is a claim that the document was distorted by Bild, which does not tell the true story of the document at all. So I did n't understand if if the real document was not published and Bild distorts it, then who harmed the state? It's one and two. In the end, there is no document that was not passed. The document itself was not passed. It was passed by me after it was published in Bild. Therefore, it is very puzzling. This section of intent to harm the entire state, but when you are being hunted down, when there is persecution of an entire system, everything is kosher. There are no rules and no laws, and you still know that this is not the accepted pipeline for transferring documents. I mean, a person who met someone else in the synagogue and told him, "Oh, my son is against it and is a thief in the act." Your son, yes, my son-in-law in this case, and your son works in the prime minister's office, and then some kind of connection was formed. There is no military system that is supposed to pass something like this to the prime minister. How did we even get to such a crooked situation? Look, this situation is crooked. There is no debate. This is a twisted situation. It shouldn't be like this. In retrospect, I'm telling you, the way he behaved towards me was criminal. Of course, his intention was to be useful, and he probably had an ideological motive, according to his way, but I don't. He didn't do what he needed to do. Yes, I see some kind of ideological motive because I'll tell you today, today we know how to say different things, today we know how to say that already in October, long before he knew me, he tried to pass a document to a traitor named Yossi Yehoshua, and he tried [snorts of contempt] to leak documents to other non-traitors. So I'll wait a moment, but in the end, if he had tried the conventional way to bring the curtain down, as you say in your question, and you're right about the military axis, and then come to me, he would have been blocked by the army, but in this case, he didn't try the conventional way, and he came straight to me, and he didn't come to mention it, but you share, he didn't come to the military secretary, he also came, he also came to the spokesman, and you cooperate with the move. I didn't do anything at first, there was a very long period of time. Between the moment he talks to me on the phone and transmits information, between the moment he transmits the photocopy that we talked about and the end of the publication of the document. This happens, it happens months apart. Months apart. By the way, the Prime Minister receives an update on the information that he transmits to me in stages even before the publication of the document, but there was no document yet. So it was verbal. And I have to tell you that the Prime Minister was not excited about this information either because it was because it was the Prime Minister's understanding all along that Hams did not want a deal. That's the point. The Prime Minister was looking for the document, so they let him have the original copy. Not because there was no document, there was no document, and it wasn't either. It was n't surprising. What's actually in the box? You tell me, there's a source and there's information. The source says there's certified information that Hams doesn't want a signed deal. He wants to say that according to you, you leaked everything. You leaked information at most. You didn't leak a complicated document. I'm saying that at the end of this information, it appears in a complicated document. Okay, but at the end of the information, but at the end of the information, what he physically passed on is information, it's not This is not the document I understand Ali, the Cattergate affair, where does she meet you? Meets me when I am already under house arrest. I am released from the dog in the Bild affair. And after a few months, in fact, she starts with publications in the media and after that she meets me when I am under house arrest. The Bild affair. You see, the Cattergate affair is a bit more complex than this in two ways. One is an affair that is still being investigated. An affair that has not been filed with indictments. Therefore, talking about it is a bit more complex in terms of obstruction of justice and investigation. Therefore, yes, I will be careful what I say. But one thing I can tell you for sure. There is no doubt that this affair, before it broke out, was first and foremost a tool for political elements who want to attack the Prime Minister. Because as someone who knows the affair, in any case, the things that I am accused of and suspected of are fine, even if I confess tomorrow to all the suspicions and everything is true. This is about conveying messages. Nobody thought that Qatar was a country that seeks peace. It is clear that Qatar has its own interests. Nobody said that it loves Israel. It is not. This is an event that is being discussed here about messages that were conveyed to the media that allegedly also served the interests of such and such Qataris through such and such factors without going into all that I am going to tell you. Look, but as it is presented in media reports, in the reports of suspicions, or in various police briefings, this is a foreign country, at best a foreign country, some say a hostile country, some even say a train that could be influencing the State of Israel, public opinion within the State of Israel, within the holy of holies of the Prime Minister's palace, and this in exchange for such and such payments, that is, the death as they sound and the suspicions as they are presented, as they sound, are very serious. I would put these suspicions first and foremost and their seriousness first with limited credibility. I tell you that as someone who spent dozens of hours in interrogation rooms and was interrogated and questioned and was in the capacity of not dozens of hours, hundreds of hours in interrogation rooms just on the Qatar affair, there is a huge gap between the things that are publicized and the facts themselves. So here too, you believe that Mr. Yulid Akhver. I think that this affair is an affair that should never have happened, and it is A story that is mainly intended to attack political parties with vested interests. I am a liar. I think that certainly in relation to everything that the media is partly trying to tell us, it is a liar. Plus, plus, to me. I notice something very interesting. You went through a process in your relationship with the Prime Minister, the people in the Prime Minister's office, your former friends, and in general the right-wing camp. You started out as an acquaintance of the entire right. I remember how everyone stood on their hind legs to be on the right to protect you. Broadcasters on Channel 14. I remember myself on Friday. I will remember you on Friday. Exactly an hour or two before Shabbat. I would say to myself, I am now going to enter Shabbat in my house in Bitarlit. And there, in some kind of dungeon in the prison cell, sits Elifelstein. A guy from a Haredi home. I know your family a little. No one knows where he is. Who will be with him? What will happen to him during Shabbat. And I could check on Friday. I would publish publications and tweets against your detention in such conditions. This is a disgrace. Channel 14 is not allowed to be in contact with your family. Regimes all the time really saw you as a kind of Dreyfus of the right wing of the supporters of the Netanyahu camp, and then at one point things opened up, you caved in, or at least you said what you had in a way that was not pleasant for Netanyahu and his supporters. Netanyahu was first discredited, and then there was the verification, and then you became the opponent of the right wing. The one who is actually causing trouble, let's say for Netanyahu and his supporters. And I also think in the only interview you've had since then, you said things that were very unpleasant for Netanyahu's entourage. Now I hear different things from you. You are very protective of Netanyahu. You talk about persecution. You treat the Qatar affair as a fake plus plus . That's what you said. Has there been any kind of internal change in your consciousness regarding this whole big story? The answer is no. Nothing has changed. I think that anyone who wanted to hear my opinion and my opinions would have heard the same thing from me all along. I'll explain it to you simply. Look, there is a truth in my story, which is my truth. Anyone who wants to can To disagree with her, someone who wants to can contradict her, anyone who wants to can argue with her. It's possible that she's not pleasant to people in the Prime Minister's office and maybe even unpleasant to parts of the right. I'm a traditionalist, I come from a Haredi family and I'm a right-winger. And why wouldn't I? I won't fire on camps. I won't support a right-wing camp and I won't support a left-wing camp. I'm not willing to be a presenter of Kaplan and I'm not willing to be a presenter of [snorts of contempt] of this or that camp. Not willing. I'm young at 34 and I'm a presenter of myself and therefore my truth doesn't have to be the truth. I'm not willing to follow blind faith after everything. I'm allowed to criticize. I'm allowed to provoke. I'm allowed to be hurt and I've been hurt. I'm allowed to not close my eyes and say yes to everything. Amen to everything. I've never been like that and I'm not like that now. Now now, there will be things if you ask me now, too. There will be things if you ask me, and there are things we talked about that won't be pleasant to certain ears. I don't keep score. I have to tell my truth and I have to look at myself. And I'm not a presenter. I didn't decide on myself. I'm not a media person. I didn't decide on myself to raise the flag of any camp. But there are two things that are important for me to tell you. I want to tell you that in the darkness, besides the faith we talked about, the right-wing public that demonstrated for me and supported me and my family, is one of the things that kept me going. It was born to me late . I didn't know it at first. I didn't know it at first. It kept me going. I tell you that I have an enormous gratitude for this . An enormous gratitude. An enormous gratitude. I wish I could meet each and every one of these people like you told me about yourself and come to them and hug them. I wish I could. I wish I could. And I'll tell you more than that. And I'll tell you more than that. That there is truth in the things I said that is not pleasant for the Prime Minister's campaign. If there are people in the right-wing camp and there are parts of them, I know that they were hurt by me. This public feels that you turned your back on them. So I tell you, if there are parts of this public that were hurt by me, I apologize. I apologize. Sorry. I apologize to those people who came out to demonstrate for me and feel that they heard me tell a truth that would not have been taken away from them and did not contribute to their ideology. I expect them to eventually if it hurts them and I know there are a lot of people who hurt them for what they did to me and Palestine. You need to be held accountable for what they did to me. And the fact that I am saying things now that are inconvenient for certain people does not make what they did to me right or justified. You are hurting for me. And if there is anyone who feels that I am, but they expected you to, maybe they expected me to be loyal to them again. You know, if they expected me not to tell my truth and in return to maintain their right-wing camp, to sit in prison for the rest of my life and take it upon myself to make the right-wing flag, then I am not the address. And yet you ask for forgiveness and I ask for forgiveness because if there is a person who has broken away from me, then I want to ask for forgiveness. I am not. I am not. There are parts of me who may not understand me and that is okay, but if there is a Jew who has been hurt by me, of course I will ask for forgiveness. Do you still see yourself in this camp? I told you before, I do not belong to this camp. I am a right-wing man with right-wing views. I am a traditional man. I grew up in a house with values. I grew up in a haredi house. These are the things that characterize me. I belong to no camp. I have no one who owns me. I understand that today we live in a generation where everything needs to be checked. Yes, Bibi and no, Bibi. I am not willing to play this game. There is a saying that says, "You were part of this game, but until your life stopped." No, I was not part of the right-wing movement. In the end, I worked for politicians. But I have never been a presenter. I have not sought for myself. I am not an ambassador for any camp. Yes. No. This is the animal that is bigger than me. Eli, you told me in one of our preliminary conversations that you still can't sleep at night. A very long time after the affair. How do your days and nights go by? Where is your life today? I am in a war. [snorts of contempt] Not daily, not hourly. In a war, almost every second, to remind myself that life goes on and life must go on. What are you doing with that? No. Always not always not always I mainly mainly hurt mainly mainly hurt for people around me who love me family even if I made mistakes and I made mistakes and secondly I recognize the mistakes I made because at the end of every day I ask myself one simple question to myself in the end did this happen to you then secondly the legal aspect and the public aspect and the media aspect put everything aside from the personal aspect its name is worn with yourself it happened to me it didn't happen to you why did this happen to me [snorting contempt] I have an answer but it's not perfect yet I keep answering myself [snorting contempt] and I'm my own cook first of all on the personal aspect is to be a better person [laughter] and that's what I hope to succeed and that's what I remind myself of when I fight every day to remind you that there is life after that of course there is life after that there is life and in the end if I went through all this and I'm sitting here now in front of you there is one thing I know for sure that the Holy One, blessed be He, loves me I won I won it can be taken from me you feel it more deeply this whole time this affair has brought you back to the cold of your quarry this gossip [gasps] It gave me the ability There is a difference between religion and believing The path of the righteous means that it has become clear and adapted to man What is his duty in his world What is it that he should become clear and make an effort ? It has become clear and adapted. What is this duplication? It is simple. It is not knowing that the Holy One, blessed be He. It is believing that there is. You believe, you know, we bless every morning at Ket Hashachar Baruch permits forbidden things. What does it permit forbidden things? I am in excuses that forbidden things will be outside People are busy but matters we want them to be in but but not everything is right [gasps] We ask for justice for us Paroch permits forbidden things Now you understand this Understand this Not all the pot really A should be I understand this right Wow I understand this Eli Haidar Karlin Yeshiva Or Israel Kfar Hasidim Yeshiva Rashi IDF spokesman Lashkat A E As for internal security Lashkat Hoshemshla Shebak facility All Beersheba and Eli Palestine of today You when you spend your life in the movie Na there is some point where you say here I should have turned to another direction. Still, I should have. Oh, fight harder. Stay within the walls of the yeshiva. Wow [snoring and contempt] Will stay within the walls of the yeshiva. Hear a framework and a greenhouse. [sighs] [gasps] There are no worries. [snoring and contempt]. Those who are there do not understand this and do not know how to appreciate it when you are there. Wow. Elie Eliezer Felstein. Thank you very much. Thank you Ari. You entered me for a meeting with Aryeh Erlich from the Family Podcast. Thank you. Thank you. Content editor Tehila Seaton. Production manager Goldstein [music]. Sound and video editors Avery Mee Wiesel, Daniel Levine, and Hale Will Helm. All the series and episodes are waiting for you on the Family website [music]. On all podcast apps and on the phone line 0772200 extension 72. See you in the next episodes. [music].