מותר בפיך - פרק 7: איך מדפיסים סטייק? על כשרות בעידן הפודטק | עם הרב אהרון וולקן

Mutar B'Picha. A professional and practical halachic look at modern kashrut challenges. Hosted by Rabbi Yisrael Abramovsky. >> Welcome to another episode of the kashrut podcast, "Mutar B'Picha." In Tractate Sanhedrin, there is a story about two Sages, Rabbi Chanina and Rabbi Oshaya. Every Sabbath eve, they would occupy themselves with the Book of Creation. They would create for themselves a third-born calf, which they would eat for the Sabbath meal. Throughout the generations, the greatest decisors grappled with a question that seems theoretically hypothetical. Does a calf created*ex nihilo*require ritual slaughter ( shechita)? Is there a need for slaughter? Can one eat it with a glass of milk? 2,000 years later, what once sounded like mysticism is becoming a reality happening right now in dozens of labs across the country. The food we know in our world today is heading toward a dramatic revolution. Food printers that churn out steaks from a cartridge. Dozens of insect farms whose role is to provide us with food for the next 20 years. And genetic engineering that completely changes what we encounter on our plates. But along with science arise questions that shake the world of halachic ruling. What is the status of a carp that was genetically improved and born without scales? How does Halacha relate to salmon? The fish we know, which also had genes from an impure fish inserted into it. And if in the next generation we could eat cultivated meat with milk, would that be kosher for Mehadrin? In today's episode, we embark on a fascinating journey between the traditional cowshed and the global food-tech industry, between halachic law books and genetic worlds we likely don't know very well. A fascinating conversation on the frontier where Halacha meets the new, evolving world regarding all food that is destined to reach us. With us in the studio is Rabbi Ron Volkan, a quality engineer, graduate of the Faculty of Agriculture in Rehovot, and a man who has been involved in the world of kashrut and science for 30 years. Shalom and welcome. >> Shalom and welcome. >> We are used to thinking that in the world of kashrut, questions involve meat and milk, prohibition and permission, laws regarding non-Jews, and insects. How does a person from the classic kashrut world find themselves in the academic world of animal genetics? >> The world of kashrut and the world of food are no longer as simple and primitive as they were in the past. As food becomes more industrialized, the questions change accordingly. And if it used to be very simple, where a person would grow fruit in their orchard, today every fruit and every grain becomes something industrialized. And with them come the questions. If we don't study and research, we won't know what questions we need to ask. So, essentially, what we know began in the six days of Creation—the food, the natural things—but today we are in a different world. Perhaps you can give us an example of genetic improvement in fruits, vegetables, and such, things that were very simple during the six days of Creation, but today have become complicated with various strange processes. >> In every factory, there is a department called R&D, which is product development, whose job is to lower production costs and maximize profits for the owners. The same exists in agriculture. For the last 100 years, researchers have been sitting and checking how to maximize agricultural efficiency. That is to say, how can there be more fruit per dunam, how can we use less water, and how can we make fruits that aren't just seasonal but available all year round? And for that purpose, there are two options: the first option is to do genetic selection , and the second option is to do genetic improvement. >> What is meant by genetic selection? >> So, first of all, let's talk for a second about what a gene is and what its role is. Researchers have mapped the genes of the entire universe, and every gene has a role. That's how it is with humans, with trees, and with fruits and vegetables. Every gene has a role. This means there is a gene responsible for the color, the texture, the thickness of the peel, the seeds, and so on. And once we know the role of each gene, we can play with the genes —and not just play, but also take them from other fruits or other living beings and insert them into the fruit's seed. >> Well, that's already starting to convince me to study at an agricultural school in academia. >> And that is why I went for it. >> Yes. And once you know how to do it, you can make fruits better. For example , when we take a bottle of juice and it says it's 100%natural, but we see that it is very, very red and very, very sweet. How did it get that way? If there aren't any other products in there, if there's no sugar. So, once we know what the gene is that is responsible for sugar production in the grape, we improve it, and sometimes we can bring that same gene from another fruit that produces much more sugar into the grape's seed, and then the grape produces more sugar. >> So, when there are changes between products, for that matter, it doesn't harm its natural status; after all, they just played with the materials to get the desired result. >> It depends on the level at which you play with the product. So, why do we actually do this? As we said, we want to maximize profits. Anyone who remembers that, for example, a banana wasn't always on the shelf all year round, >> right? >> So today, they know how to take the genes responsible for the banana's climate needs and replace them. And that's how the banana grows all year round. For example, anyone eating peaches or grapes today feels on their tongue that the peels are much thicker. The grower has an interest in the peel being thicker because it's harder for pests to penetrate the fruit. >> And then he makes more money. >> And then his investment in treating tree diseases costs him less. >> So he takes another fruit that has a thick peel, changes the...the gene, yes , and then it becomes a thicker peel; and that's how everything you eat today , from wheat to barley, every fruit and vegetable has undergone genetic treatment. I would like us to perhaps dive into the Halachic world that is automatically influenced by these things. >> I would like your permission to give a few more examples, and with these examples, we will enter the Halachic world. >> Okay. >> For example, so that tomatoes could withstand the cold and grow all year round, they used a fish gene and inserted it into the tomato. Okay. >> For example, with rice, so that it wouldn't require certain treatments, they took a gene from a pea and put it in. That is to say, the world—the gene bank— >> is a vast and immense bank that scientists can play with. And by the way, the State of Israel, the Land of Israel, is in the most respected place in terms of research—both at the Faculty of Agriculture in Rehovot, of which I am a graduate, and at the Volcani Institute in Beit Dagan, and also a bit at the university in Kiryat Shmona in Tel-Hai; they are the world leaders in research and the development of strains. >> Let's give another small example. Today , when we open a watermelon, we don't have seeds in there. Who remembers, in the past, rows of seeds? >> They took the gene responsible for the seeds and removed it; conversely, watermelons are specially bred to produce seeds—like those you buy in nut stores—where if you cut the melon , there is almost no fruit, only seeds; they strengthened that gene there, and I want to give another example. In poultry, for instance: In the past, a chicken was just a chicken in the yard, it would lay an egg. Today, the subject of poultry has become an industrialized topic, just as we said that everything in the end must be industrialized. I want to tell you that in the past, in the distant past, a chicken gave 12 eggs a year. >> 12 eggs a year, which didn't seem enough for... >> By 1900, they had already reached 120 eggs a year; today we are at 600 eggs a year. And therefore, they created two lines of poultry. Meaning, they took a variety of genes from various birds and created birds that suit people's needs for eating. One type is called layers, these are birds whose role is only to lay eggs, and one type is broiler. Now, what does broiler mean? Why do you need to create a chicken that will be a broiler? The breeder does the math: where do I make a profit on the chicken ? Where do I lose? On the legs I lose, right? Let's give it small legs. >> Wow. >> On the neck I lose, let's make small legs. On the breast meat I make a profit, let's load it up. And you get a chicken >> As you requested >> Exactly. And you get it like that. That the chicken cannot survive over 40 days . On the 43rd day you must slaughter it . >> Afterwards, its heart, its body, cannot hold the amount of muscle and the mass of fat that it has on it. You don't need all that; you need a hen with a lot of strength to lay eggs, you make its bones suitable for that. And here we enter the central question you asked ; Rabbi Nissim Karelitz said: we must have a tradition. If we know that this chicken was not eaten in the past, then it is forbidden for us to eat it. >> Meaning, because of the new developments >> So if there are developments here, it is essentially a new creation, so therefore today this is how Rabbi Nissim Karelitz ruled, that it is forbidden to eat the eggs or the chickens, and those who remember that actually a few years ago they decided to investigate this topic and develop a new chicken for the Haredi sector from birds that have a tradition that they have not been changed. >> And I helped them with this development , and they brought a professor from England and went to look for chickens in Belgium, and why go look for chickens there? Because there are places that hold cockfights, and a chicken used for fighting must have a pedigree; it must be a chicken that they never crossbred with anything. >> That it is pure. >> That it is pure, that it is a pure breed, and they went to bring chickens from there and extract the genes from there to build a chicken that would be suitable. >> And that is what is happening today. >> No, in the end, this project failed, but there are indeed many Haredi people who to this day do not eat these chickens and eggs. >> So that is how we see that genetic work has entered into the, into the Halacha. >> Wow, beautiful. So, let’s take an example that I heard in the past about how they developed an Israeli carp, what we know, to grow faster. If it grows faster, we will generate more benefit and money as you said, and along the way, as a result of this process, they weakened one of the genes that produces the fins. >> In the end, we got a fish without fins. >> When they established the country here, they also set up fish farming, which started in two kibbutzim, Nir David and Ein HaNatziv. These are the two first kibbutzim that started building a fishery, and the fish that did well here in the country and was in demand was the carp. A carp, by nature, we know today that it can even live for 150 years. Here in Israel, there are carp over 100 years old. To reach market age, which is 2 kilos, it takes 20 years by nature at its biggest. >> That means only after that can you use it. >> It reaches a size that you can sell it and do something with it. You can't raise fish in ponds for 20 years and sell them; you’ll lose money. So, they needed to develop a carp that would grow quickly and reach market weight within a year or two. So, the carp today, instead of growing for 40 years, grows for two years. They took several types of carp from around the world, from Yugoslavia, China, and Russia, they took carp genes, and built a carp suitable for the Israeli fishery . Wow, that it's fast, it's fast and then They said, "If we are already developing the fish," and the original carp is entirely covered in scales like armor, just as it's written in the Halacha that a scale should be like armor. >> It was covered in scales, and because of its growth speed and density, it was a breeding ground for bacteria, so they wanted to weaken it and leave only a few scales, a strip of scales, just so it would be a "pure" fish. Uh, So what they did there, they didn't add a gene, but they weakened the gene. >> Now, when you weaken the gene for some of the offspring, the gene becomes weaker. It’s like, for example, with humans, where one of the parents is a redhead, yes? It might be that the children won't be redheads, but it could be that one or two of the grandchildren >> That's where it comes out, >> There, suddenly, they will be redheads. That means not every offspring always takes all the genes with it. >> So we don't have absolute control, but >> And then it turns out that some fry that come from the fish turn out without scales. So here there was a question: is such a fish, which is a carp, permitted to be eaten or not? And this question was brought before Rabbi Sternbuch, before Rabbi Yitzchak, and before Rabbi Wosner. Now, so that we understand the problem, let’s explain the Halacha a little. There is a dispute among the Rishonim: are the signs of fish a sign or a cause, and what is the difference? Did the Holy One, Blessed be He, give scales to the carp because there is a specific reason this species received scales? And consequently, if due to a certain disease or a certain defect it has no scales, it would also be permitted to eat it. Because the Holy One, Blessed be He, wants the carp to be eaten. >> Because this fish is fundamentally kosher, and only for a specific reason does it not have that. Yes. Or, are we saying that it is a sign. The Holy One, Blessed be He, gave us a sign. Either there are scales or there are no scales . Now, why do they think it's a sign and not a cause? We will see in the Torah that the Torah speaks about the matters of the purity of animals. So we see that there are also names. In places where there is doubt, where there is only one sign, the Torah specified names; but for fish, there are no names. "These you may eat, all that are in the water"—if you see signs of purity, two signs, you may eat . And therefore it is a sign. >> And then, naturally, if we don't have it... >> So if we don't have it, then it is forbidden to eat. >> So it is forbidden to eat. >> Rabbi Sternbuch tended to permit it. Because he went according to the ruling of the Ksav Sofer that it is a reason. But he said that everywhere there is a dispute among the Rishonim, we must be stringent. Meaning that this is how they actually ruled, and they removed the fish. >> Yes. And indeed, in the Eida Chareidis, there are supervisors on the production lines who check every carp, and if there are no scales, they go to destruction. Rabbi Wosner said that technically it is permitted, But lest they get confused and accidentally eat a non-kosher fish, we should be stringent. So we will be stringent about this. Nice. Now there is another fish, Salmon fish. >> So that’s it, I heard that they sometimes use genes from a non-kosher fish, an eel. In the United States, there is a company that managed to develop a strain of salmon, and it used a gene from an eel. It went even further and took only the "engine" of a gene from the eel. What does it mean? It wants the growth gene of the salmon to grow faster. So it doesn't want to replace the gene, but simply to increase its speed. It managed to isolate... >> Double. >> Yes. It managed to isolate from the eel gene the...the engine. >> Well. >> And plant it inside the existing gene and boost its work. >> So that is already the issue of " whatever comes from the impure is impure." So here we enter this issue, that "whatever comes from the impure is impure"—which we...Later we will talk about it, when we reach the subject of the product, we will talk about this subject. But we will just say that something that is a gene that you don't see, that is microscopic—it is hard to say that "whatever comes from the impure" applies to something completely different. Also, it doesn't affect its taste, its texture; it affects its growth. The owner is the one who profits here. >> Meaning, it’s like something external to the fish. >> Exactly. >> So to speak... >> Just that... >> For years, they were not allowed to market it at all. It was within the framework of research; only recently did they start marketing it in the United States. When I came to the Torah greats to ask them what to do with this , the Torah greats really did not want to enter this issue and told me that this would be a question—this is what I am coming to ask, we will ask it. >> This is what I am coming to ask: how do the Torah greats really relate to this whole world, which is a world completely disconnected from Halacha, a research world, and needs to be connected to Halachic points on theoretical matters, because when it reaches practical questions, it is sometimes perhaps a bit too late. >> So I will give you an example of a question I asked, which is theoretical but could happen. I visited a university in the United States, and a professor brings me a test tube and says to me, "Listen, inside this test tube I have the sequence of genes responsible for scales." In humans, by the way, these are the genes responsible for hair. >> Wow. And he says to me, "Listen, if I take an impure fish and I transplant these genes into the fish, >> will it be forbidden? >> Will some of the grandchildren be forbidden? So I went to ask Rabbi Wosner, what would the ruling be? Now, this is a theoretical question, >> right? >> A very difficult question. And Rabbi Wosner thought, thought, and thought, and he wrote a response. He wrote that he didn't know what to decide, and he writes that whoever can prevent interference with the six days of creation and not interfere, and not conduct research, blessed will he be. >> I am sure that once this becomes practical, there will be no choice and it will be necessary to discuss this matter, and here I want to say something on a personal note, and it is very difficult for me. >> I have been dealing with these scientific questions for many years, and in the past, there was an open door to the great Torah scholars of Israel, who we know were on a very high level; we had Rabbi Elyashiv, Rabbi Auerbach, Rabbi Wosner, and Rabbi Ovadia Yosef— they were all giants of Halacha whose rulings were accepted by all the House of Israel. >> Maybe we should try to move on to another chapter that deals with cultured meat, which is really already a complex event, and we naturally start asking questions about meat and dairy —if at all, can we enter these worlds ? And here I am once again bringing up what I mentioned earlier. It is always this question of whether we should sit on the bench and deliberate today, because if we don't, then when the products are in stores, it will already be too late and the train will have left. >> So let's enter the world of food tech now. >> Yes. >> A large and broad world, we'll explain it and understand what is happening there, and then we will merge with the world of Halachic questions on this topic, so first of all, why is it needed? In every organized country, there is a department called food security; here in Israel, it is under the Ministry of Agriculture. The role of this office is to ensure that the residents and citizens have food, not just today, but also in 50 or 100 years . >> What is essentially called food reserves. >> It's not just food reserves, but knowing that there will be food, that there will be production. >> In terms of future production, and now not just food, but all essential nutrients, that there will be everything necessary. And all sorts of processes are happening in the world that are troubling those people around the world who deal with food security. What processes are happening? The first process: first of all, the global birth rate is growing; there are more people, and more people need to be fed. In contrast, the number of farmers is falling; people don't want to engage in agriculture as much. How many farmers, in your opinion, in percentages, are engaged in agriculture in the world today? >> I don't know. I only know that in Israel, the agricultural output seems to me to be maybe one percent or so. >> 3%, 3%of the world's population is engaged in agriculture. If you had asked me this question 20 years ago, we were at 8%. >> So the trend is not good. >> If you enter any farm here in the country, any lot in the moshavim that you enter, you will see the age of the farmers is between 50 and 60, not younger. There is no young generation entering agriculture. A farmer brings home on a good day, in a good month, 20,000 shekels. His son tells him: Dad, instead of working in the sun in the field 24 hours a day, I will work in Tel Aviv and send you 40,000 shekels. There is no young generation, so they had to bring Thais from all over the world to work, and it's like that in Europe and everywhere else. This means that the number of farmers is decreasing and decreasing and decreasing. Therefore, you need to take every farmer and give him tools, someone who will succeed in producing more, until we have someone who succeeds more, we need to worry about what's happening. Fine, there won't be any agriculture, who will grow wheat? >> This means that he will both manage to produce more and also earn more. >> Second point, the issue of rainfall in recent years is in decline and in a very bad state for agriculture. What does that mean? Sometimes at the end of the year they tell us the rain was just fine. It rained as much as last year. What don't they say? They don't say that all this rain came in one big boom over two weeks. That destroys agriculture. In the past, there were four or five months of winter, a rainy day, a rainy day, it would fall in an orderly way and they could plan the agriculture, when to sow, when to plow, and so on. Now suddenly a huge cold wave comes that dries up the flowers on the trees. Suddenly heavy rain comes that causes the seeds and roots to rot. And we see that the more we invest, in the end after the winter, there are fewer and fewer crops. Third point, the world's temperature is rising. And naturally, there are many crops that will be hard to grow as the temperature rises. There is something that no one thinks about. We are living for many more years. Life expectancy has gone up by three years. Multiply that by the population. How much you need to feed. And therefore for years they know that we need to change the way of managing things like it was centuries ago when they transformed food, and here there are two lines: one is to take crops and turn them into food, or turn them into animals, now I'll explain what that is. >> So that there will be more production. >> So that we won't raise animals anymore. >> Ah. >> Why? An animal needs to eat and needs water. All these things we don't have. >> We don't have enough for ourselves. We need to worry about them too. >> Exactly. >> So, naturally, I will give you a number of examples of things that are in the labs today, and I tour the labs and everything I tell you I have also tasted. Not only that, I also tasted it . For example. At, at, at Tel-Hai, in the Tel-Hai lab. They are producing beef today. >> But that's not for marketing, right? >> It's, it's still in research. >> Yes. >> They produce beef, that when you eat it , you are eating beef. >> And it's the taste of. >> The taste and texture of beef, whose raw material is banana peels. Wow, I tasted it. Tuna fish with the taste of tuna and the texture of tuna that is made from beets. Sausages, tastes like a sausage, smells like a sausage, but it's not a sausage, it's a carrot. >> Okay, you have to take me for a tour, this is already. >> And that's how I can come with you, food, food that these things—the only thing I know they have already on the shelf. And eggs. You can buy it today in Tel Aviv, walk into a store...it's under the supervision of the Rabbi, Rabbi Rubin, even a carton of frozen eggs, inside you have five frozen fried eggs. You can put it on the hot plate, on the...on the frying pan, spices, and you eat it and you feel like you're eating a fried egg. Is it like a hard-boiled egg or an omelet? >> It looks like a fried egg. >> And what is it made of? >> What do you think? >> I don't want to think anymore. It's made from plants. >> Wow. So so so That's one thing. Let's save the resources it takes for us to raise animals and take these things from plants. Especially since, for example, raising cows is one of the biggest things in the world, more than factories, causing pollution of the earth. >> That affects the pollution, yes, so they want to get rid of this thing. Now , I wanted to say the whole time that it sounds like science fiction, but it sounds from you right now that not only does it exist, in the State of Israel they are putting all the... >> True, I will explain to you where it stands. >> The second thing is to switch to producing meat. And poultry and other things inside a lab. Before I tell you how they do it, I want you to simply understand the difference in energy costs. Not monetary costs, the energy costs. What do we gain? >> In the lab? >> In the lab. So for example, meat. Cultivated meat. Yes. >> Yes. >> To raise a kilo of beef, you need 15,000 liters of water. Okay? If you do it in a lab, it's 8 liters. Wow. Grain. Yes, you need 6.5 kilos of grain versus 0.2 >> of water. >> of grain. >> To grow a kilo. >> That's the difference, yes. >> Land area. >> Well, that's obvious, instead of 330 meters, 2 meters is enough for you. >> But the question is, is what you're saying also going to lower the costs of things because it's a very expensive research, it turns out. The cost to produce a kilo of meat is two dollars. Producing it in a lab costs a dollar and a half. >> Yes, well, we will talk later about the topic of costs because that is a story in itself. >> I want to ask for a second a thought that comes to me right now, beyond the Halachic questions that we need to address, if truly all food production will be in this form, will it perhaps be easier to supervise it in terms of Kashrut because it's a lab, everything has to be very, very precise? >> It will be easier to supervise, but the supervisor will need to have a much, much wider scale. >> But after the fact, we have a supervisor, the factory is running and they won't put in or replace raw materials for you or all sorts of things because it's precise. >> True, the things that are on the shelf today that can be marketed tomorrow, he told you, let's say, why they aren't marketing it, it's beef, chicken, eggs, milk. We already have milk on the shelves, fish which are cultivated, tuna and salmon, and honey. >> All of this exists in the country. >> It exists, there is already more honey, for example, today, and they are creating in the world honey that wasn't made by a bee. >> It's an extract that a machine does the activity of the bee and turns it into honey. >> I heard about that. Yes. >> It already exists. Cultivated chicken meat is very expensive. So, these things exist and it's a matter of time before it's released. Why hasn't it been released until now? So I will explain to you why it hasn't been released until now. We have reached costs. The first meat patty that was made 10 years ago was made in the Netherlands. The patty cost $ 300,000. Wow. >> The first patty to produce it today, we are at around $ 90,000 per patty, still not cheap. >> And the goal is to reach a dollar or half a dollar. Meaning, in terms of production, the knowledge exists; in terms of turning it into money, that's what most of the research is today: how to lower the costs of the process and make it cheaper than what's on the market. >> So that's where it stands today. >> I understand. >> It went a bit backward. It went a bit backward. I was sure that within five years it would already be a product on all the shelves. Today I think it will take 10 years. >> So we have time to get organized. >> Now, everything I told you is not the final stop of what is being planned. They are already working on the next stop. And the next stop will be that every person will have a food printer at home, and that means something like this: every week you will receive a cartridge—who remembers the color printers from back then, that you would put cartridges, four cartridges inside? >> You will receive such cartridges that will contain sugars and proteins, and so on and so forth. >> And you choose what to print. >> And you come in, you returned from the daily page lesson in the evening, home today is Thursday, you double-click on your folder, Thursday afternoon it already knows what you're eating and it prints you the meal. I ate salmon that they printed on a printer. >> Wow. >> You don't feel any difference. >> It also looks like it. >> Looks, smells, and feels. There is no difference in it. And you will receive your food, the meat and the vegetables, everything printed. More than that, in the morning you were at the clinic and the doctor said that you lack iron and you lack B12, you don't go home to take ...to take. >> It will already arrive automatically from the company in your food, all your medications, all the vitamins you need will already be adjusted inside the cartridge. >> Well, that is really... >> Now, whoever walks around in the places that are developing this sees it in reality, and it seems...but let me ask you a question: would your grandfather have believed that he would talk to his children with a phone without a cord? >> True, true, that's why I'm sitting with you still, right. >> Even then. >> He would have told you, that's it, we are sitting today and talking without a cord. >> True, but. >> And we are driving in cars without a driver. >> But that only strengthens the point we must reach: the halakhic issue, where do we encounter Halakha in these things , because it really will happen. >> Regarding fruits and vegetables, we reached [the conclusion] there is no halakhic problem, it's not called* kilayim*; *kilayim*is only if you graft two trees. All the authorities have ruled there is no question here. The question we are asking, that we are required [to address], is regarding meat, so let's talk for a second about the process and we will understand. >> Okay. >> How does it work? To produce meat in the lab, I need stem cells. Which I take from an animal. So if I want to make myself a beef steak now, I go to the cow. Extract a stem cell sample, place it in a lab with special equipment, and it begins to replicate itself rapidly. In other words, I entered 10, it became 20, 40, 80, and so on and so forth, into the billions. >> So, this basically produces your raw material. >> It produces the meat for you. And in the lab, they know how to take those cells and turn some of them into muscle cells, meat cells, and fat cells from those same 10 initial cells. Meaning, from those 10 cells, you can produce meat for years and years. And they put this on some special medium—in a way that if we get into the technical explanation now, people won't understand it—and eventually, over time, you start to suddenly see tissues , tissues begin to grow, so it sprouts. >> No, it grows on a medium. >> Yes. >> Like in our bodies. >> Yes. >> After all, what are the cells in our body? In our body, new cells are constantly being born and dying—God forbid, when a person gets sick, what does that mean? What is that disease? It means the cells don't die. >> And then they start to have a mass of cells. >> So, here the cells don't die, but rather they replicate, replicate, and it becomes infinite. That's how they do it with chicken, and that's how they do it with meat, too. And now we need to get into the Halachic topic, and before we enter the Halachic topic, I want to give—to open parentheses—with some example. When we come to discuss Halachic topics regarding things related to laboratories and the lab, one must know how to ask the questions. Unfortunately, most rabbis who try to enter this field and don't come with the appropriate training, they don't know how to look at this thing. >> In other words, you must be proficient in scientific topics to start studying the issue. I will give you two examples , so you understand how proficient a person needs to be when they go to a posek to ask the question, how much they need to know the facts. For instance, there was a company in the center of the country that developed chicken breast from cells—the cells they extract from eggs, so they approached a certain rabbi and told him the process of how they do it, and he wrote a long, reasoned Halachic response that, since an egg is pareve, the egg is permitted. Therefore, this chicken is permitted and it is pareve. >> Pareve. >> Just one thing that same rabbi didn't know: that this egg was an egg that had been in an incubator and was fertilized , and there was already a chick inside a little bit. Cells need to be taken from the chick, not from the egg. And therefore, this egg became forbidden. That is one example where you understand that if you want to get into something, you can't without understanding the things—to understand the basic things—to know what to ask. I'll tell you a story from the world of fish, also here in the country. A fish called Blue Marlin. That fish is an impure fish; it has scales like thorns, but the scale goes into the flesh. >> And the Halachic definition is that a scale must be removable. >> Yes. >> They went to ask Rabbi Wosner and told him that the scale is real and it is transparent, etc. Rabbi Wosner said that this fish is perfectly fine, just one thing they didn't tell Rabbi Wosner : that the scale enters >> inside the flesh. >> into the meat, and at its base, it has cartilage like any bone. When they brought this fish before Rabbi Yitzchak , he said it was bone in every respect. And the whole world knows that the marlin family is a family of non-kosher fish, yet they sold it here in Israel with high-level kosher certification as tuna. >> How many years ago was that? >> That’s a story from 15 years ago. We stopped it; we stopped it immediately. The Rabbinate banned it. So when you come to the Torah giants and you want to ask them questions, you have to know how to frame the question, and there is a shortage of that. >> Yes. >> And there are rabbis who ask to come to the laboratories that produce it to see how it’s done. And I tell you, the rabbis are honorable, they walk around there, and they don't understand anything of what they see. >> It’s a world. >> Students sit there and try to explain to them—it's not their world. I think I was the only student who studied it who is Haredi. >> Yes. >> The opposite. I am calling from here to more kosher supervisors. Come join, because we must increase the... >> And in another 10 years, this will be the job. >> I’ll give a simple example from the standard kosher world: a kosher supervisor who doesn't know raw materials, the raw materials are more complex, so he can be deceived easily. Meaning, this is truly a must. Our time is short, and I want for a second, really, a halachic perspective, as much as possible, also on the subject of stem cells and the subject of meat and milk. How is it seen? So we will really say it in... >> In a nutsh... >> In a nutshell, yes. >> Uh, the...Question, how do you relate to this subject of stem cells? Since, in the end, you take this stem cell— it has no blood, it has no meat. We know that what makes something impure and what makes it" meaty "is blood and meat itself. When you take out all these things and you have a clean, net cell, and you do a very long process here where you change it completely and you actually turn it from a stem cell into a fat cell, etc., etc., you have created a new creation here. >> To the point of pareve. >> To the point of pareve—that is one of the reasons we have pareve milk, that we took cells from dairy sources and made them pareve. >> That we created something new here that has no connection to what it came from. Even, even, even if we say that these cells are forbidden, it doesn't mean that what comes out of them will be forbidden. As we know, for example, that if we plant a seed that is forbidden, it doesn't invalidate what grows from it. >> Yes, so it might be that you can’t take such cells from animals that are also forbidden to eat. >> That is also a question. We are just discussing, not ruling right now, but ... >> That is, those who permit it also claim this. >> A... >> Those who forbid it say," No, since it eventually grows and it becomes... " >> It grows. >> It grows and becomes large, so therefore, even those who try to say it is nullified by 60—anyone who knows a little about cell work is in trouble, because every cell has the previous cell; it's not that the... >> It doesn't get nullified. >> It doesn't get nullified. And every cell carries the DNA and the chromosomes of the previous cell. What is this idea of a solution? >> If you ask me what will happen in the end: standard kosher will permit it, strict kosher will make it meaty. Uh... >> It's like this: when I sit today with rabbis, most of the rabbis I discuss this with don't want to issue a clear and formal ruling on it. They say," Listen, since this is still in research , there might be all sorts of changes. " >> But that's fine, because the fact that we're dealing with it today means that when we reach the finish line, it will be easier to rule because we'll be familiar with the processes. But there is a solution that I heard about, a cow's placenta, so I wanted to praise a company that said," Wait, if that's the case, let's look for a different solution, exactly. " >> And then the solution came up to bring it from a cow's placenta—a placenta that, from what comes out of the cow now, still has living cells on it. So you need living cells like that. >> Yes. >> And you can take it to the lab, clean them, and produce them. Now, placenta is permitted to eat and is pareve. The Rambam writes:" One who cooks a placenta in milk is liable, and likewise one who eats it. "" However, one who cooks a placenta, skin, sinews, and bones, "" and the roots of horns and hooves in milk is exempt. "" And the same applies to those who eat it; they are exempt. "Meaning, everything once it has come out, it is pareve and it is permissible to eat it. I saw an ancient book printed in Turkey that writes there that a woman who needs it to conceive should eat a cow's placenta . So we see that there is such a thing, that it is pareve and one can eat a cow's placenta. I would like at this point, at this point of the...That we spoke about a factory that came and asked questions, so I want to take a second to explain the complexity we face with the food-tech world, compared to traditional industry. When I come and I want to open a bakery, I want to open a bakery, I want to open it as a life's work, to bequeath it to my children, I know exactly what the kashrut issues are, how to implement kashrut in a bakery. The rabbis know exactly; they did kashrut in thousands of bakeries before me and will after me as well. In food-tech, it is an entirely different world. Food-tech is built by two partners. One with money and one from a university who brings the knowledge. He is not going to open a factory and manufacture. He is going to develop his patent and then sell it and make an exit. And when we look at who is investing in the factories, there are, I think, over 370 food-tech factories in the country today researching food. Most of the investors are institutional, garage owners— people not connected at all to the food industry. >> This is a different field. This is a different area. The world of kashrut does not interest them. >> Yes. >> They don't get into that. He will sell it to a company abroad, get the billions that I make in an exit, and continue life. It's not a life's work; he's not going to leave to his children a laboratory that makes meat. >> So that challenges us more. >> It challenges us even more that they don't turn to us and they don't want our help. They are the opposite—they want as few people as possible to know their secrets. >> And therefore, even when we try to approach this world, we are received with very, very cold shoulders. It is very rare that they show us things, and it is possible that we will be surprised in a few years by all sorts of things in this subject. On the other hand, in the end, when we reach the final straight, they will need us. >> Right. >> Then it might be a bit more complex to get into most things, but whoever needs us is not the one who developed it, but the one who sold it. Yes, that's true, true. Well, we're nearing the end because we've really run over, and this is a special topic that perhaps we'll meet again to discuss. There's another topic we could elaborate on, the whole issue of injections in fish, but we won't have time for that today. Perhaps a final question to finish from a slightly different angle: there is this saying that in milk, which is supposed to be pure natural milk, they add water . What does science say? Is it an urban legend, as they say? There is a joke about an old winemaker who was already on his deathbed. He called all his children and said: Listen, if there's ever a problem with water and there's a shortage of water, then make wine from the grapes. >> Okay. >> For the record. There is a large surplus of milk in the country. Quite the opposite, every single day. >> There is more. >> Not only is there more, but they are looking for what to do with the surpluses. They make milk powder and market it outside the country. Meaning, there are surpluses. The standard is very simple. Milk is allowed to have up to 2%water. This 2%water standard doesn't mean they open the taps to add 2%water. Only the opposite. Sometimes in the pipes, after they've been cleaned, a few drops of water remain. >> Or in the tanker truck that undergoes a rinse so there won't be bacteria, it's possible that a few drops of water are left there, so up to 2%water is allowed in the milk; if it exceeds 2%water, the milk is disqualified and poured out. >> So that's where the story comes from. >> So if you ask me regarding*shruya*on Passover, maybe there is a tiny drop of water there. >> Yes, but that... >> But they don't add milk, far from it, yes. >> Well, we've learned something. This was truly a fascinating, different, and special episode. And with God's help, we will expand further with Ari Baron-Volkan, an expert in the field of kashrut. All the titles are already redundant because everyone who heard the episode understood. May you have strength. Thank you very much, and with God's help, may there be many more like you so we have many people who have mastered the market. >> Glad you hosted me. I would just like to end our episode with one sentence and tell the public of*mehadrin* consumers. Nothing on the shelf is as simple as it looks. >> May you have strength. Thank you very much. >> Got it. >> You've been listening to" Mutor B'Picha "from the Mishpacha podcast network. I am Israel Abramovsky. Thanks to the content editor Tehila Siton and the production manager Ayala Goldstein. Sound and video by Avrumi Weisel, Daniel Ein, and Hila Willam. All series and episodes are waiting for you on the Mishpacha website, on all podcast apps, and on the phone line 077-2200. Extension 71. See you in the next episodes. God.